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Ep 2. Gemma Peters, CEO Blood Cancer UK (Part 2): Implications of Black Lives Matter - What does Diversity, Equity and Inclusion really mean?
57 Plays4 years ago
“It cannot possibly be true that we have the best scientists working on blood cancer, if that scientific community only represents one bit of the population.”
In Part 2 of our conversation with Gemma Peters, CEO of Blood Cancer UK, we delve in to what Diversity, Equity and Inclusion really means for the charity sector. Gemma shares the responsibility she feels being a white leader, with an all-white Board, Executive Team and with predominantly white scientific researchers. We look at specific initiatives that Blood Cancer UK are pursuing to address this and how, as a sector, we can look to disestablish racist structures and precedents.
Gemma reveals that the true inspiration and drive for the work comes from the people she and her organisation are striving to help.
For some extra inspiration, watch the video she talks about from people affected by blood cancer, saying thank you to the staff at Blood Cancer UK. https://bit.ly/2Y8bV3L
Episode recorded August 2020 via Skype.
Visit www.thecharityceo.com for full show details.
Gemma Peters joined Blood Cancer UK as Chief Executive in September 2017. Prior to this she worked at King’s College London and King’s Health Partners as Executive Director of Fundraising and Supporter Development. Gemma also spent 7 years as Trustee for Action Aid UK.
www.bloodcancer.org.uk
In Part 2 of our conversation with Gemma Peters, CEO of Blood Cancer UK, we delve in to what Diversity, Equity and Inclusion really means for the charity sector. Gemma shares the responsibility she feels being a white leader, with an all-white Board, Executive Team and with predominantly white scientific researchers. We look at specific initiatives that Blood Cancer UK are pursuing to address this and how, as a sector, we can look to disestablish racist structures and precedents.
Gemma reveals that the true inspiration and drive for the work comes from the people she and her organisation are striving to help.
For some extra inspiration, watch the video she talks about from people affected by blood cancer, saying thank you to the staff at Blood Cancer UK. https://bit.ly/2Y8bV3L
Episode recorded August 2020 via Skype.
Visit www.thecharityceo.com for full show details.
Gemma Peters joined Blood Cancer UK as Chief Executive in September 2017. Prior to this she worked at King’s College London and King’s Health Partners as Executive Director of Fundraising and Supporter Development. Gemma also spent 7 years as Trustee for Action Aid UK.
www.bloodcancer.org.uk
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Charity CEO Podcast, the podcast for charity leaders by charity leaders, with candid, meaningful conversations that really get beneath the surface of issues. This show aims to inspire, inform and deliver practical insights on the challenges facing charity leaders today, for the benefit of leaders across the sector and for those who care about the important work of charities.
00:00:33
Speaker
I'm your host, Divya O'Connor, and each episode I will be interviewing a charity chief executive who will share with us their insights, knowledge and expert opinion on a particular topic or area of expertise.
Diversity and Inclusion at Blood Cancer UK
00:00:44
Speaker
This is part two of our conversation with Gemma Peters, CEO of Blood Cancer UK. If you've not yet heard part one, please download the episode now to listen to Gemma talk about leadership through the current crisis and the pandemic's impact on cancer communities and the charity sector as a whole.
00:01:02
Speaker
In today's episode, we delve into the implications of the Black Lives Matter movement and tackle what diversity, equity and inclusion really means for the sector. Gemma shares the responsibility she feels being a white leader with an all-white board executive team and with predominantly white scientific researchers. We look at specific initiatives that Blood Cancer UK are pursuing to address this and how, as a sector, we can look to disestablish racist structures and precedents.
00:01:30
Speaker
So let's dive straight in and pick up the conversation with Gemma where we left it at the end of part one. Gemma, I'd like to switch lanes now and talk about another issue that is also hugely important in the current climate and that is the Black Lives Matter movement and the current spotlight on racism and racial injustice.
Challenges in Charity Leadership
00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah. What do you think charity leadership needs to look like in order to address issues of structural inequality and institutional racism? And how do you deal with this in your organization? Yeah, I'm really glad we're talking about this. I think it's so important and I think it's something that lots of us are
00:02:14
Speaker
struggling with and thinking about and acting really critically, thinking doesn't get us very far, does it? From my own experience in the organisation, we had lots of the standard things that organisations have. We had an EDI strategy, had an EDI working group internally that had staff on it. We had a kind of public commitment to work to be more diverse and to be inclusive so that one of our values is people being able to bring their whole self to work.
00:02:44
Speaker
And we thought really wrongly, we thought that that was enough and we were kind of ticking that box. We were measuring things, we knew how many staff we had and what their ethnicity was and what their sexuality was. And we could measure stuff and we would look at those measurements in the senior team, but we were not getting upstream of the problems that we were looking at. Every problem we were looking at as a senior team was a symptom
00:03:13
Speaker
of a problem which we weren't engaged in trying to fix. So for instance, we would spend time talking about why it is that our ambassador network was so predominantly and overwhelmingly white and middle class. And we needed to change that because it's not that white and middle class people are the only people who get blood cancer. So let's try and change that. So we would recruit, we'd advertise and recruit and try and we'd work really hard and then we might be able to recruit a couple more people.
00:03:42
Speaker
But we wouldn't have said, okay, why do we as an organisation keep finding this really hard? Why are we, what are we doing that is meaning that really important communities are not engaging with us, are not part of our work, are not part of our community of Black Country UK. We've got a responsibility to fix the thing that is happening that means that the end result is the number of people that we're counting aren't diverse enough, basically.
Leadership Responsibility in Systemic Change
00:04:10
Speaker
And that ends
00:04:11
Speaker
You know, I think George Floyd's murder, the Black Lives Matter movement, charity so white have done, you know, have been a kind of a bolt, a much needed kick to say, not enough, not enough, not enough. You are accountable. From my perspective, you are the chief exec of the organization. This is your responsibility. You need to get your board on board. You need to make sure that the organization really understands systemic racism and how it interacts with your mission. And so for us,
00:04:41
Speaker
that is everything from why is it that there is an under-representation in the scientists that we're funding of black and ethnic minority, Asian minority ethnic groups? Why is that? Our mantra has always been judge on the quality of the science. Be blind about who's putting the application, just judge on the quality of the science. Actually, that's not enough. We've got responsibility to say it cannot possibly be true.
00:05:10
Speaker
that we have the best scientists working on blood cancer if that scientific community only represents one bit of the population or is to over represent it. So there must be something about career paths within the scientific community and how funders like ours, albeit reduced funders as we've just talked about, but what influence we have on that and what we're able to do. And that it doesn't just apply to ethnicity, also applies to gender and sexuality and all the other protective characteristics that we were talking about in this space.
00:05:40
Speaker
Or what sort of partner are we to organisations that are doing this really well already? Are we a good enough partner? Or actually, is our relationship with other groups one where we'll say, well, can you help us advertise because we need to fill this and we want this to be more diverse? That isn't a meaningful partnership. That isn't us saying, how can we support you? You're obviously doing a brilliant job with this community.
00:06:03
Speaker
How can we support you to do that better? We don't need to recreate it. What do you need from us? Part of our responsibility is to make sure you succeed. Really, I mean, I'm embarrassed to say that our thinking on that, I can't believe really, I mean, I can believe it, but I'm embarrassed to believe that it has taken this for our thinking to move upstream to that point. I'm hugely grateful for the staff at the organisation who have pushed
00:06:26
Speaker
us challenged us got involved we had the first session that we had when George Floyd's murder happened and the Black Lives Matter protest started happening over here we had this open session with staff you had like half the organization turn up to talk about what it meant for them and what they thought we should do like you know the team are so committed and passionate and wanted to change and they've been so engaged in
00:06:50
Speaker
producing like this, actions not words is what's driving what we're doing. These are the things that we need to do. This is how we're going to look at it. This is how we'll be open and public about how we're measuring, how we're doing. We're expecting that we won't just get it right first time. It's going to take us a while, but we want, we want to work with people to do it. We had, um, I think one of the things just for me personally, which has really hit home
00:07:17
Speaker
you know, is the idea of my responsibility as a white leader to be educated on top of, understand systemic racism, understand what role I might be playing in it, what my organization might be doing, what my board might be doing. That I can't rely on other people to say, like, the answer is not for me to go to black colleagues in the organization and say, can you tell me what I should do, please? You know, I don't think I ever would have done it as crudely as that. But in a sense, there was a narrative which was
00:07:46
Speaker
We need to hear from you because you're the person who's experiencing this racism or this oppression in whatever form it's taking. Therefore, you tell us what to do. Of course, as soon as you examine that and as I've examined it and been helped to examine it by all the reading and learning and training that I've been doing over the last few months, you realise that you can't, in any other situation, you wouldn't ask someone that's a victim of something to be the person that sorts it out. The people that need to sort it out are the people that are benefiting
00:08:16
Speaker
from the privilege that they have associated with any of the many characteristics afforded to them that give them privilege. And in my case, being white is one of those, being middle class is one of those. And so I need to use that privilege to do something good. So I'm proud that we're tackling it.
00:08:41
Speaker
We've had very frank and robust conversations at the board about it. We're aligned as a leadership team and as a board about where we're going and how important it is and honest that we haven't done enough with the power and the purview that we have to fix it and to challenge.
00:09:06
Speaker
we're starting to do better and we'll carry on doing better. And I hope that all the other people that I talk to in positions like mine who are also trying to do the same thing, that together that's a pretty powerful force. So I think there is some reason for cautious optimism that this time we might be able to shift the dial.
00:09:28
Speaker
Yes, talking about power, I attended a webinar a couple of weeks ago that was facilitated by groundbreakers on tackling racism in the charity sector and the conversation was around privilege and unequal or unequal power structures and power dynamics and one thing was said that really struck a chord with me
00:09:50
Speaker
And in essence, it was that it isn't enough to use your power with kindness. In order to level the playing field, you have to give some power away.
Impact of Pandemic and BLM on Charity Sector
00:10:02
Speaker
What are your thoughts on what that might look like in practice? So I really agree with that sentiment. And that was partly what I was alluding to in the conversations about how you work with other organizations, because I would say
00:10:17
Speaker
wrong, entirely wrongly, our relationship with organizations that work with particular communities, underrepresented communities has been very transactional. And it hasn't been about really understanding those organizations properly and what they need and what we could be doing to best support them so that they can do their job better. And that in order to do that, that means giving something away, like giving away our resources, giving away our
00:10:45
Speaker
hold or our view that we are able to do everything, actually we're not, we have to let someone else do something. So I think that's one bit. I was thinking about this the other day, there's something about what does that mean in roles. So we're an organization that has an all white board and my exec team is all white. So if you count numbers and diversity stats,
00:11:14
Speaker
Overall, as an organisation, we could of course do better, but broadly, we're kind of ahead of where most organisations would be. But where's the power? Now, the important question then is, what are we doing with our leadership team, which is much more diverse, which is a level below the exact team and elsewhere in the organisation, to provide support and paths? What's stopping
00:11:42
Speaker
our succession planning working in a way that means that those levels are more representative. And in order for that to work, that in reality will mean people giving up power. It will mean people who are in those posts stepping aside.
00:11:55
Speaker
The reason I was thinking about it was there was a report on the news and I'm going to get wrong who it was. Did you hear it? Where there was... Yes. I think this is the story you're referring to in the business world. Alexis Ohanian, who is the co-founder of Reddit.
00:12:13
Speaker
He basically stepped down from the Reddit board and said that he wanted his seat on the board to be given to a black candidate. And this was in response to the Black Lives Matter movement. And of course, Alexis is a white man and he is married to Serena Williams. So I thought it was a great example of somebody who is in a high profile situation and really who
00:12:40
Speaker
has power and influence at that leadership level, really showing that this is the way forward and leading by example. Yeah, I agree. But one thing I thought when I read that, and I didn't know enough about his individual situation, but actually the harder job to do, and maybe he has already done that, is to put the work in to make sure. So I should be thinking, shouldn't I, as I think about succession planning for the organization, which is incumbent on me, at some point, I won't be Chief Executive of Blood Country Care, who will be,
00:13:08
Speaker
And have I got internal candidates who could be good candidates? That's part of my responsibility, I think, as a leader and for other roles in the organisation too. Before we step aside, let's make sure that we've done the mentoring and the support and the work such that there are people who are in the very best position to be able to interview for and get those jobs. Because I'm sure this isn't what he did.
00:13:37
Speaker
But I don't think just stepping aside and saying, okay, off you go board, now you go and get a CEO. That isn't enough, I don't think. I think that actually us thinking about if an aspiration should be that my director's team and my role should be much more representative in the future, then the way to do that is to make sure that we are mentoring and supporting candidates
00:14:06
Speaker
from a wide range of different backgrounds, such that they're ready to interview for those roles and put in a kind of knockout performance. And that takes longer and it's a bit more work than just resigning, isn't it?
00:14:18
Speaker
But I think that's really important. Yes, you're right. It's also about creating the structures and the environment for individuals to be able to thrive and be able to take up that mantle, as you say. So it feels like we...
00:14:37
Speaker
you know, have been hit by two massive tidal waves, if you like, in terms of the pandemic and the Black Lives Matter movement really coming to Crescendo. What do you hope changes for the better from here? What positives can we take from this whole experience? I really believe this idea that we have shown that we can do things faster
00:15:04
Speaker
and more effectively than we ever thought was possible. I see that within my organization. I see it within the NHS. I see it within the world around us. Things that have taken years have moved very quickly. I hope that is what we're going to see as a result of Black Lives Matter movement too. So that's one of the things that I really, really want to take is this belief of what is possible, that in the future when we have conversations about how we might
00:15:33
Speaker
deliver a new treatment, how quickly we might move to cure, how able we might be to deliver a service in an entirely different way, that those conversations are not limited as limited because people will say, well, remember, we moved all our services digital in 48 hours in March.
00:15:54
Speaker
Or, you know, well, remember that every GP's appointment was done virtually in the space of, you know, there were, there were these incredible examples of, of system change and local change that happens faster than neither of us would have thought were possible and were possible. So let's hold on to that and keep this view of, of, of what is possible. I also really hope that we've taken this
00:16:19
Speaker
you know, the value that I talked about that we have at Black Cancer UK, that people should be able to be their whole self, bring their whole self to work. Well, that's become much more true in this period because, you know, as you're talking to, but I have to know that actually you're really worried about your mum because she's in the vulnerable group or that you haven't sorted out your children's childcare and say you're trying to grapple that or your mental health is really suffering because you've been in for so long because you're shielding, you just don't think
00:16:46
Speaker
our knowledge of our colleagues and our community is way deeper than it was, I feel, before the pandemic. And I think we should lose that. I think that gives us a humanity and an ability to connect and the ability to form a team and to get stuff done. That is really valuable. And albeit we won't all be shut up in our houses working and only seeing each other on Zoom in the future, I hope. But we hopefully should retain that, that sense of
00:17:14
Speaker
each other as humans with lives and lots of dependencies that we have on us that affect how we are able to work and how we do our best work. So I really hope that that happens. And I think with the Black Lives Matter movement, I really think that we will hold onto this shift of where the responsibility sits to make that better and that those who
00:17:40
Speaker
have power need to take responsibility for shifting it and not pass that responsibility anywhere else. That feels to me like that is happening. We will know it's happening over the next few months in a year. And if whoever you're interviewing in a year's time is still talking to you about it, then we'll know, won't we? We'll know that that work, the labor, the effort that this will take, which will be big to make our sector
00:18:07
Speaker
genuinely representative of society as a whole and those people that we serve. I really hope we've done that because we absolutely have to. I think we're sort of dotting around now, but one of my afflictions, one of the reasons our sector has found this so difficult, and I personally have found it so difficult, is
00:18:27
Speaker
People come into this sector because you do hold on to this idea that you've chosen a career path that's doing good, that you want to do good. You think on some level, although you don't necessarily go around with a badge about this, you think you've chosen a life path that is doing good and is about making society fairer and better and making the world a better place. That is a very important part, I think, of the identity of lots of the leaders in our sector.
00:18:53
Speaker
And so to face into that we have been at the very least complicit in harm, possibly definitely part of a system which has caused harm, have at the very least not done enough and probably caused harm to people on the basis of their ethnicity or on the basis of just not being part of the dominant powerful group in whatever form that might be.
00:19:23
Speaker
is incredibly difficult to sit with and you have to sit with it in order to get the power to act. And I think that that is happening and has happened and that won't ever go away. I think once you've faced into that, then you've kind of added it to your list of lifelong missions to do something about. So that I hope
00:19:52
Speaker
is one of the big positive changes that we will see in our sector that you and I'll look around over years to come and say, the days of an all-white panel at a conference are gone. It used to be an all-male panel. Yeah, and interestingly, I spent in my last rows, as I said, really very deeply immersed in a university.
00:20:18
Speaker
And I spent a lot of that time saying, you can't put another all male panel up. There can't be another all, just, and I would say to male colleagues, refuse to speak on that panel. Say to them, there are women who can speak on that, just say, you will not lend your, and it was such, it was a real battle. And I felt like people would look at me and be like, oh God, she's at it again. Well, I'm going to channel, I have to channel that challenge again.
00:20:45
Speaker
And I certainly don't want to imply on this that I think women have equality either. We don't. Let's look at the number of chairs in organisations or even actually the number of chief execs. We're not there. Pay different tools. We're not there. We need to keep championing and fighting for that too. But the intersectionality between these things is really important. So there is, of course,
00:21:08
Speaker
issues associated with gender. There are, of course, issues associated with race and ethnicity. There are, of course, issues associated with disability. There are, of course, issues still associated with sexuality. It all comes under this banner of essentially white patriarchy doing damage across society and everyone. I mean, that's one of the challenges I got from my board when we were doing our work in
00:21:37
Speaker
reviewing our EDI strategy in the light of it was, what isn't your focus on this going to mean that you stop focusing on other aspects of inclusion? And I don't believe that's my same approach to being a feminist. I think you disentangle the patriarchy. It's not just women's lives who get better, other people's lives get better. We managed to disestablish or pull down the racist structures that are holding people back
00:22:04
Speaker
It isn't just people who aren't white who will benefit from that. We will all benefit from that because the reality will be that society is fairer and better and more inclusive and more able to do what it needs to do to keep everyone safe and happy. The feminist bit of my identity is very deep and has run for a very long time and now I'm adding to it and that's good and that's a positive thing. I'm pleased to have had the wake up call.
00:22:33
Speaker
to really do that. Indeed. I think that topic might have to be the subject of another podcast in the future because there's so much to be said about it.
Inspiration and Motivation in Charity Work
00:22:46
Speaker
So Gemma, just bringing us to a close now and coming back to your role of as CEO of Blood Cancer UK, what is the best thing about being the CEO of Blood Cancer UK? What really inspires you about the organisation?
00:23:03
Speaker
We do amazing work with an incredible community of supporters. Imagine having a job like mine where there are literally thousands and thousands and thousands of people up and down the country cheerleading you to do the best possible job you can do because they believe so passionately in the mission of the organization that you run that they want to help. They want to tell you what you should be doing better. They want to talk to you and
00:23:32
Speaker
give you their ideas. They want to tell you where they think that we've got it wrong. They want to tell you about their experience and then they want to put their shoulders to the wheel and help you get there. That is incredible. I've never worked in the private sector, but I just can't believe that there are equivalent private sector organisations where people are just cheering you and rooting you so hard to be successful and to get this right because this is their life. This is their family's life or their life.
00:24:02
Speaker
They believe it's possible and they are willing you on. So for me, being part of that family and welcomed into it and supported by it and cheered on by it has been and is the most incredible thing. And on all the difficult days that we've talked about, I know really what to do to make myself feel better.
00:24:33
Speaker
to talk to pick up the phone to one of the people who have been on a trial of ours who wouldn't otherwise be here or who feel much more confident about the future of their children or who are taking a drug which is keeping them alive which was a result of our research. That sort of commitment you don't find to you in many places which is why I think doing these sorts of jobs is
00:25:02
Speaker
you know just such a privilege is overused but genuinely it's you know i feel really really really lucky i feel i didn't know all of that when i took this job i didn't know all of that about the organization and i feel very lucky that that this is where i landed and that this is where i landed and at this time when the the charity really is never more needed and
00:25:29
Speaker
that's what better time to lead something. You've got real purpose and your focus is very clear. So yes, that's good. Thank you for asking me that because that's a really positive reflection for me to take into the rest of my day is maybe we need to spend a bit more time thinking about
00:25:46
Speaker
you know, the good stuff. Things that inspire us. Yes, I saw a video that I think you shared that was made by, I believe, blood cancer patients, basically saying thank you to you and everybody at the organization. And that was just so moving. I know. Did you cry? I mean, I just couldn't... I've worked in and around the sector for a long time. I've never had anything like that happen to me where a group of
00:26:13
Speaker
people who the organization supports and who support us. Frankly, you know, there are ambassadors. They just completely sidelined us and appeared at a meeting and then had made that amazing video to say thank you to the staff. Like, we're paid to do this. This is our job. But they really wanted to say thank you. And it landed at the time when we were, you know, everyone had worked so incredibly hard to move all of our support services
00:26:42
Speaker
out of the office online to reorientate the organization so that we could still support our scientists and clinicians in this weird new world. We were on a Zoom call with 120 people, and then they all appeared and shared this video. It really was a very moving and powerful
00:27:11
Speaker
moment, I think, because not many people get that to really see firsthand the difference that your work makes. I think that connection in these jobs and these organisations, whether you're CEO or not, to feeling like you're working hard, but you're working hard and that is making a difference to other people's lives. And in this case, they've noticed it and that they really want to say thank you, which was, you know,
00:27:39
Speaker
amazing. In fact, every time I watch it, I have watched it a few times. Every time I watch it, I have to reach for the tissue once again, because I noticed a new person. Of course, I think for anyone watching it cold, it's really powerful. When you know those people, it's even more so.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yes, I think I must include a link in the show notes to that video so that if anybody who's listening to the podcast wants to watch it, they can. It's a little cry. Indeed. But it really brings home Gemma, as you say, this is the reason the charity sector exists. This is why you, me, other leaders and everybody else in the sector, this is why we work in charities in order to help improve the lives of people across the world and to make a difference. Exactly.
00:28:22
Speaker
Thank you, Gemma. It has been a fascinating and detailed conversation, and I feel like actually we could have gone on talking for much, much longer, but it has been brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing all of your thoughts and reflections with us today. As always, it's lovely to talk to you, Daveer, and I'm very honoured and delighted to have been your first guest, and I'm looking forward to listening to the others.
Conclusion and Preview
00:28:47
Speaker
Excellent. Thank you so much.
00:28:50
Speaker
And that's it, my first full interview with the wonderful Gemma Peters, CEO of Blood Cancer UK. I was blown away by Gemma's frankness and willingness to really look deep into the heart of so many important issues for leaders in the sector. I hope you found the conversation valuable and interesting.
00:29:09
Speaker
My next interview is with Sarah Mitchell, CEO of Heart of the City, where we talk about corporate social responsibility and the future of charity partnerships post pandemic. That episode will be available to download in two weeks time. Meanwhile, if you enjoyed the show, please click the subscribe button on your podcast app and consider leaving us a five star review. It will only take a few seconds and reviews really help make a difference to increase the visibility of the podcast and help spread the word.
00:29:37
Speaker
Visit the charityceo.com website for full show details and to submit questions for future guests. Thank you for listening.