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Ep 45. Laura Kyrke-Smith, Executive Director International Rescue Committee UK: Re-settlement for Success
86 Plays1 year ago
“It was thanks to this country that lots of those rights and protections that exist for refugees are in place … but now… you get that sense in lots of parts of the world, frankly, that the UK isn’t playing the active role that it has played historically.”
The International Rescue Committee is a global organisation that helps people affected by humanitarian crises. The IRC supports people who have been caught in conflict and been forced to flee their homes, enabling them to survive, recover and rebuild their lives.
Founded at the call of Albert Einstein in 1933, the IRC today works in over 40 crisis-affected countries, as well as with communities across Europe and the Americas.
Laura Kyrke-Smith is the Executive Director of the International Rescue Committee in the UK.
We talk about the current global context for refugees - 108 million people forcibly displaced around the world. Contrary to popular opinion, the vast majority of these displaced people are not in the wealthy countries in the Global North, but are either within their own country or within a neighbouring country, often also a low and middle income country.
We discuss the UK’s Illegal Migration Bill, which seeks to remove the right to asylum - a stance that is in stark contrast to Britain’s position back in 1951, as one of the original drafters of the Refugee Convention. And how today, Britain’s standing on the international humanitarian stage is sadly not, what it once was. Recorded June 2023.
Guest Biography
Laura Kyrke-Smith is the Executive Director of the International Rescue Committee in the UK. She leads IRC’s work to raise funds, raise awareness, and deliver policy and practice change to help people who are caught up in conflict and disaster to survive, recover and rebuild their lives. Laura has been with IRC since 2016 as the IRC’s Director of Communications in Europe. Before joining IRC, Laura was a Partner at Portland Communications. She started her career in the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office, where she worked as a policy analyst and speechwriter. Laura has a MSc in International Relations from the London School of Economics and a MA in History from the University of Cambridge.
Links
https://www.rescue.org/uk
The International Rescue Committee is a global organisation that helps people affected by humanitarian crises. The IRC supports people who have been caught in conflict and been forced to flee their homes, enabling them to survive, recover and rebuild their lives.
Founded at the call of Albert Einstein in 1933, the IRC today works in over 40 crisis-affected countries, as well as with communities across Europe and the Americas.
Laura Kyrke-Smith is the Executive Director of the International Rescue Committee in the UK.
We talk about the current global context for refugees - 108 million people forcibly displaced around the world. Contrary to popular opinion, the vast majority of these displaced people are not in the wealthy countries in the Global North, but are either within their own country or within a neighbouring country, often also a low and middle income country.
We discuss the UK’s Illegal Migration Bill, which seeks to remove the right to asylum - a stance that is in stark contrast to Britain’s position back in 1951, as one of the original drafters of the Refugee Convention. And how today, Britain’s standing on the international humanitarian stage is sadly not, what it once was. Recorded June 2023.
Guest Biography
Laura Kyrke-Smith is the Executive Director of the International Rescue Committee in the UK. She leads IRC’s work to raise funds, raise awareness, and deliver policy and practice change to help people who are caught up in conflict and disaster to survive, recover and rebuild their lives. Laura has been with IRC since 2016 as the IRC’s Director of Communications in Europe. Before joining IRC, Laura was a Partner at Portland Communications. She started her career in the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office, where she worked as a policy analyst and speechwriter. Laura has a MSc in International Relations from the London School of Economics and a MA in History from the University of Cambridge.
Links
https://www.rescue.org/uk
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Transcript
UK's Changing Role in Global Crises
00:00:00
Speaker
Feels like a tricky time to be Brit. I think historically we have been a great leader on humanitarian issues. We've been a great leader in terms of, we were one of the original drafters of the refugee convention back in 1951. So it was thanks to this country that lots of those rights and protections that exist for refugees are in place. But it's tricky now, talking to colleagues in Nairobi, they're saying to me, where are you? There's a crisis in, not where am I personally, but where is your country?
00:00:26
Speaker
There's a crisis in Sudan and Britain's not one of the active countries that's stepping up and making contributions to the humanitarian response. And they're talking to the Americans, they're talking to the Germans, they're saying, where are you? And you get that sense in lots of parts of the world, frankly, that the UK isn't playing the active role that it's played historically.
Introduction to Charity CEO Podcast
00:00:53
Speaker
Welcome to an exciting new season of the Charity CEO podcast, where we bring you the stories and insights of remarkable charity leaders who are changing the world for the better. We talk to the people who run nonprofits, the movers and shakers, who are driving positive change in this space, inspiring you to take bold action and make a difference.
00:01:12
Speaker
To all our listeners across the globe, I am thrilled to have you with us. We've received amazing feedback from listeners in over 42 countries, including the UK, US, Australia, Canada, and India. Your support and engagement is what makes this community so special. To all of you who pour your hearts and souls into making the world a better place through your work in the charity and nonprofit sectors, thank you. I'm Divya O'Connor, and here's the show.
The International Rescue Committee's Global Work
00:01:40
Speaker
The International Rescue Committee is a global organisation that helps people affected by humanitarian crises. The IRC supports people who have been caught in conflict and been forced to flee their homes, enabling them to survive, recover and rebuild their lives. Founded at the call of Albert Einstein in 1933, the IRC today works in over 40 crisis-affected countries, as well as with communities across Europe and the Americas.
00:02:05
Speaker
Laura Kirk-Smith is the Executive Director of the International Rescue Committee in the UK. We talk about the current global context for refugees, 108 million people forcibly displaced around the world. Contrary to popular opinion, the vast majority of these displaced people are not in the wealthy countries in the global north,
00:02:25
Speaker
but are either within their own country or within a neighbouring country, often also a low- and middle-income country.
Controversy Over UK's Illegal Migration Bill
00:02:31
Speaker
We discussed the UK's illegal migration bill, which seeks to remove the right to asylum, a stance that is in stark contrast to Britain's position back in 1951 as one of the original drafters of the Refugee Convention. And how today, Britain's standing on the international humanitarian stage is sadly not what it once was. Enjoy the conversation.
00:02:53
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Society. Society is an executive search firm that partners with responsible businesses and purpose-driven organizations to strengthen diversity and inclusion across senior leadership and board appointments. As a certified B Corp, they believe that all organizations can have a positive social impact and that careers should have purpose and meaning. Society's goal is to change the world for the better, one appointment at a time.
00:03:20
Speaker
visit their website society-search.com for further details. Now, on with the show.
Laura's First Job and Career Shift
00:03:30
Speaker
Hi Laura, welcome to the Charity CEO podcast. It's lovely to have you with us today. Great to be with you, thanks for having me. Well, let's get started with our icebreaker questions. Question one, what was your first job? My first job was a waitressing job, I think aged 14 or so on in the Gypsy Hill Hotel. I started in the kitchen and then I progressed to waitressing, but I had a low point at a wedding where I spilled soup on the bride's dress.
00:03:58
Speaker
And I have to say the job didn't last much after that point. Oh dear. Question two. As a child, what did you dream of becoming when you grew up?
00:04:10
Speaker
So I dreamt originally of being an architect. I loved art and I couldn't believe it when I discovered you could do a job where you got paid for drawing things. And then I think I realised it was a bit more complicated than that, but never say never. Indeed. Question three. What would you say is your professional superpower?
00:04:29
Speaker
So I like a challenge and I like solving challenges. I like solving problems. It really frustrates me when things are left incomplete or unresolved. So I really like seeing things through and I think that drives a lot of how I tried to approach my work today.
00:04:45
Speaker
And question four, where was your most recent holiday? We had
Legacy of Elizabeth Fry and Social Justice
00:04:50
Speaker
two weeks in Morocco. We have three little kids and it was the first time really that we had dared to get on a plane with them all and go somewhere that felt a bit adventurous, but it was wonderful. It was wonderful. A lot of fun. And our final icebreaker, if you had the opportunity to interview anyone in the world, dead or alive, who would it be and what one question would you like to ask them?
00:05:12
Speaker
Great question. I think I would choose Elizabeth Fry, who was a 19th century social justice campaigner and prison reformer and an ancestor of mine, so about seven generations back. And she's a fascinating woman because she campaigned for change. She achieved a lot of change. I think it was thanks to her that the first all-female prisons were set up, having she'd visited these prisons and been horrified by the conditions and had campaigned for change.
00:05:40
Speaker
But she did all of that with 11 kids. And I struggled to do my job and balance that with looking after being a good parent to three kids. She did it with 11. And I would just love to ask, how on earth did she do that? And I'd love to hear more about all the
00:05:56
Speaker
the campaigning work that she did and the changes that she made. How fascinating indeed and how interesting that she's an ancestor of yours. How did you find that out? Oh, I did. I got very into ancestry a few years ago when that website launched and traced things back many steps and was very pleasantly surprised to discover that she was great, great, great, great, great grandmother, something like that. Lots of greats, but a very impressive woman.
00:06:21
Speaker
Brilliant. So Laura, you are the chief executive of the International Rescue Committee, UK, also known as the IRC UK.
IRC's UK Programmes and Refugee Training
00:06:30
Speaker
Tell us what your organisation does.
00:06:32
Speaker
Yes, so I run the UK bit of the organisation, but we're a huge global organisation. We work in 40 different countries worldwide and we work across the arc of crisis, as we call it. So we work in humanitarian contexts where people are either caught up in conflict or have been forced to flee their homes and we'll support them there in places like Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan is a focus for us at the moment.
00:06:57
Speaker
But equally, we'll work with people who have crossed the border and fled as refugees. So in Sudan, a lot of people have gone to Chad and Ethiopia and Egypt and elsewhere, and we're supporting them there. But equally, some of them will go on to be resettled and integrated in third countries, safe countries like the UK or like the United States or the parts of Europe. And there we'll also be providing welcome and orientation support and then longer term integration support.
00:07:23
Speaker
So we're a vast global organisation focused on five different outcome areas. So we always start with our clients as we call them. Some charities refer to them as beneficiaries. We call them clients and it's the people ultimately that we are here to serve as an organisation.
00:07:40
Speaker
We will start with them and their needs, and so the exact programmes will look quite different in different parts of the world, but there are five outcome areas that we're always aiming to achieve, one of which is health, one of which is education, one of which is economic wellbeing and empowerment, one of which is safety, and one of which, the final one, is power, and that's about helping people to be part of the decisions that affect their lives.
00:08:06
Speaker
Laura, you mentioned that you are one of 40 countries in terms of the global entity. So how does IRC UK fit within the global IRC entity? So we're here to raise money for our international programmes. We're here to look after the grants and the contracts that we have in place, the existing funding for our international programmes. We're here to raise awareness of the needs of our clients around the world. And we're speaking on World Refugee Day today, which is a really important state in the year for us.
00:08:35
Speaker
We're here to liaise with the UK government, to work with them to try and shape their thinking on both domestic refugee and asylum issues, but also global humanitarian issues. And we're here to run programmes in the UK. So we have a programme that's been running for two or three years now, where we are running cultural orientation programmes, job readiness programmes, leadership training programmes for refugees in the UK, predominantly
00:09:04
Speaker
Syrians, Afghans and Ukrainians, but in theory open to any refugees that are aiming to build a new life here in the UK. So that's our role in the global organisation. And Laura, give us a sense of the global context in terms of global displacement figures.
Global Refugee Displacement Crisis
00:09:21
Speaker
As you say, today is World Refugee Day. And just last week, we saw the tragedy of about carrying 600 migrants capsizing off the coast of Greece. Give us a sense of the global context.
00:09:32
Speaker
The numbers are really worrying and every year they get more worrying in terms of the scale of the challenge that we're facing. So UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency, released their annual figures just last week and there are 108 million people who have been forcibly displaced, forcibly their homes around the world.
00:09:51
Speaker
More than half of them at 62 million are internally displaced people, so they've fled their home, but they're still within their country of origin. And for example, in Sudan, that's one of the big trends we're seeing. About a million people currently in Sudan have had to flee Khartoum or wherever their hometown or city or village is because it's too dangerous, but they've gone to safer parts of the country for now. So the majority of those, the people that UNHCR counts into that total are within their own country still.
00:10:21
Speaker
And then about 35 million, I think, of those are refugees, i.e. people who have crossed a border and are having to live outside of their home country. And then if you just dive into those statistics a bit, they're interesting because actually the vast majority of those are in neighbouring countries, so they haven't tried to come to the UK and haven't tried to come to the US or wherever it might be. They've gone for the, in the case of Ukraine, they're in Poland and Moldova and Romania.
00:10:47
Speaker
And then actually the vast majority again are in low and middle income countries. So we often think about the refugee challenge to falling to wealthy Western countries. It's not the case. Most refugees in the world are in countries that are already struggling in their own right economically and sometimes unstable in their own right as well. And so they are places like Chad in the case of Sudan that are
00:11:14
Speaker
managing a lot of existing challenges and then managing people coming from Sudan, in that case, on top of that and having to provide that welcome and that additional support from a very low base of their own economically. I think that sometimes gets overlooked when we're talking about the people coming on boats to the UK. It's awful and it's a serious challenge in its own right, but that global perspective is important to keep in mind, I think.
00:11:38
Speaker
Yes and we'll come on to talk about the small boats coming to the UK but I just want to stay with those figures a moment there Laura in terms of 108 million forcibly displaced people but actually 62 million within their own country of origin or in countries and I understand you've just come back from Nairobi, what did you see there?
00:11:57
Speaker
That was really interesting. So we run a program in Nairobi with some support from the IKEA Foundation and it's primarily with Congolese and Somali refugees. So there are a lot of refugees over many years actually who have fled to conflicts in those two places and come to Nairobi sometimes because they have family members who are there who they can come
00:12:19
Speaker
and be supported by sometimes just because it feels closer culturally than fleeing further afield. So we do some interesting work in some of the slum areas of Nairobi and the focus there is on jobs and livelihood. The program I saw, I met some Congolese women who are training to be hairdressers. We run this six-month program, IKEA Foundation supported, but with some local private sector partners as well.
00:12:43
Speaker
And it's a six month program and by the end of it they should be sufficiently skilled and sufficiently knowledgeable in how to run a salon or be employed by a salon in Kenya that they can start to earn an income in their own right. And I think that's a really important aspect of all of our work.
00:13:01
Speaker
We as IRC are there to support in the first instance, but our goal is always to be able to leave again. It shouldn't be that there's a long-term dependency on IRC or on other international NGOs. The goal should always be that the clients that we serve ultimately can stand on their own two feet and rebuild their lives. And so this was a lovely program actually, just as a indication of how you can do that. And we met these Congolese ladies who were, you know, it's challenging. They've left their homes. They don't have family supports. Lots of them had kids.
00:13:30
Speaker
They were trying to juggle childcare and this apprenticeship program but they were really excited about it and really excited to be able to see a way out of their challenging time of their lives that they're in having arrived in a new country and know that they'll be able to earn a bit of income and stand on their own two feet again.
00:13:47
Speaker
Well, it's great to hear the impact of that programme for those Congolese
Impact of UK's Migration Bill on Asylum Seekers
00:13:50
Speaker
women. And coming now to talk about the small boats, where are things with the UK government's illegal migration bill? And give us your perspective on what you want to see from the UK government at this point in time.
00:14:03
Speaker
I was struck by this in Nairobi. It feels like a tricky time to be Brit. I think historically we have been a great leader on humanitarian issues. We've been a great leader in terms of... We were one of the original drafters of the Refugee Convention back in 1951. So it was thanks to this country that lots of those rights and protections that exist for refugees are in place.
00:14:24
Speaker
But it's tricky now, talking to colleagues in Nairobi, they're saying to me, where are you? There's a crisis in, not where am I personally, but where is your country? There's a crisis in Sudan and Britain's not one of the active countries that's stepping up and making contributions to the humanitarian response.
00:14:39
Speaker
And they're talking to the Americans, they're talking to the Germans, they're saying, where are you? And you get that sense in lots of parts of the world, frankly, that the UK isn't playing the active role that it's played historically. And then I think the same is true here in the UK at the moment. We are really worried by this removal of the right to asylum that the government hopes to
00:14:59
Speaker
achieve by putting this illegal migration bill in place. We're speaking in June, I don't know for certain that the illegal migration bill will pass, but I know that the government wants it to have gone through Parliament before the summer recess, so in the next month or two.
00:15:17
Speaker
That illegal migration bill, if it does pass, would take away the right for people to seek asylum in the UK altogether. So anyone who arrives on a small boat, arrives irregularly, would be put into detention and then deported to Rwanda. There's an agreement in place with Rwanda. The government's looking to put similar agreements in place with other countries. So they would arrive and they would have no opportunity to have their case heard.
00:15:44
Speaker
And it's not clear to us how that would work in practice. We don't think the processing mechanisms are there in order to be able to send people to other countries in a timely manner. It's not been made clear to us how that would work in practice. But more fundamentally, it feels just very dangerous for people who are
00:16:07
Speaker
fleeing the kind of conflicts we're talking about in Sudan, Afghanistan, elsewhere, already deeply traumatised and under international law for decades have had this ability to have their case heard. They may or may not be successful, it may be that
00:16:23
Speaker
They're not granted refugee status ultimately, but they at least have that opportunity to make their case. All of that would go. And I think often there's a lot of dehumanising language that's used, and I think it's very easy to forget who we're actually talking about when we're talking about these people who come over on the small boats. But if you look at the statistics for last year,
00:16:45
Speaker
Two thirds of the people on those boats were from just five countries, which included Afghanistan, Sudan, Eritrea, Iran, and forgetting one. But there are places where conflict is rife and persecution is rife and
00:17:03
Speaker
often they do have good reason to come here and the government's own statistics show again just if you look at the statistics for last year three quarters of those people who came on the small boats were granted asylum so they were found to be people who had a genuine need for protection and they were given refugee status and given the right to remain here in the UK. So these are the people that we're talking about and this
00:17:24
Speaker
Ambition from the government to hope to deter them coming but I don't think that will happen given this global challenging context that we're talking about but this approach whereby they're detained and deported and that's that just feels really
00:17:41
Speaker
really cruel and frankly very unlikely to work as well. It's such an important question isn't it? Where is Britain on the world stage and where is Britain's responsibility as being a country in the global north to actually protect vulnerable people who are fleeing persecution?
00:17:57
Speaker
So during the pandemic, the government cut the UK overseas development budget from 0.7 to 0.5 of GDP. And as we all know, it's unfortunately stayed at that level. And the FCDO recently released its figures from 2022 in terms of spend. And what that actually shows is that there's more money from the ODA budget being spent here in the UK on refugee costs than actually on the humanitarian development assistance being sent.
00:18:26
Speaker
to the whole of Africa and Asia. And I know this is a really hotly debated problem, but I think it comes back to Britain's responsibility on the world stage in terms of addressing the root causes of problems and conflicts in various countries across the global south and how they are prioritising this spend.
00:18:44
Speaker
You're so right to make that point about root causes. And when we think about what an alternative approach to this illegal migration bill could look like, it's partly about fixing the asylum system here in the UK. It's partly about setting up safe
00:18:59
Speaker
alternatives so that people don't feel forced or are forced to get onto the small boats and cross the channel. But the third point is exactly that. It's about maintaining an active role in the world, in the places where people are being forced to flee their homes in the first place. And that's partly about humanitarian aid. The funding does matter. But it's also about diplomatic engagement in resolving those conflicts that are causing the crisis and driving that displacement.
00:19:27
Speaker
And that's where the UK isn't playing as an active role as it used to. It's not that it can't. When I talk to my colleagues in other parts of the world, they're saying, where's the UK? But they're also saying, come back. It was such a welcome role that the country played and could continue to play. But it's not happening at the moment. And your point on the amount of the overseas aid budget being spent on the costs of the asylum and refugee processing here in the UK is exactly right.
00:19:56
Speaker
it shouldn't have to cost that much. A lot of that money is going on, hotel accommodation for Afghans and for others, really expensive. And it's only happening because there wasn't sufficient planning and investment in that asylum process early on. And so it's a very reactive and
00:20:15
Speaker
approach that the government is taking to managing asylum seekers at the moment. A lot of that spend could be avoided if there was more proactive planning around managing refugees and asylum seekers here in the UK as well. And talking about Afghanistan, we are coming up to the two-year anniversary of the evacuation from Afghanistan.
Humanitarian Situation in Afghanistan
00:20:34
Speaker
How many people who are eligible for repatriation to the UK do you think are still stuck there? And what has changed for Afghani refugees in the past two years?
00:20:44
Speaker
A lot of people are still stuck there. There were these three different pathways set up for resettlement to the UK under the first pathway, which was largely to cover the people who left on those evacuation flights out of Kabul when the Taliban took over there.
00:20:59
Speaker
There have been a decent number through that scheme that have been granted refugee status in the UK, but there were these two other pathways designed to help people who had either fled to neighbouring countries or were still in Afghanistan to get to the UK and the numbers that have come through those schemes are tiny.
00:21:15
Speaker
And meanwhile, the humanitarian needs have continued to grow immensely. So 90% of the population of Afghanistan now is in need of food assistance. They can't afford to feed their own families. And we all see the headlines about the awful situation for women and girls there. And the two are linked, of course. I mean, the fact that women can't work has had a real negative knock-on impact on the economy of Afghanistan.
00:21:38
Speaker
So the needs there are vast, and I was talking a couple of weeks ago to our country director in Afghanistan. IRC has a huge program there. We have about 8,000 people working in Afghanistan, primarily almost all Afghans, Afghan national staff, and a lot of women who are determined to keep working despite all the challenges there. And we're running health care programs, we're providing
00:22:04
Speaker
There's a lot we can do and have to keep doing there in Afghanistan. But again, it goes back to this point that we live in this globally interconnected world and you can't separate the work that we do in Afghanistan from the work that needs to be done with Afghan refugees here. We have to share responsibility for these global challenges that we face. And that's partly about being active at the source of the challenge and partly about just playing our part in terms of hosting our share of refugees.
00:22:32
Speaker
here in the UK but for Afghanistan it's challenging on both fronts at the moment, both there in the country and here in terms of the needs of Afghan refugees here in the UK and elsewhere there's a lot of other European countries that have taken in Afghan refugees. There's a lot in the United States as well so it's not just the UK but there is a shared need there for
00:22:54
Speaker
lot of different countries to play their part in that crisis indeed and explain to us a little bit about safe and legal routes so we hear a lot of rhetoric from the government about safe and legal routes but am I right in saying that actually there's only four or five countries that safe and legal routes actually exist to the UK so are we in effect saying that Britain is shutting its doors to anybody else if
US Refugee Scheme and Support Systems
00:23:19
Speaker
they're not from those four or five countries
00:23:21
Speaker
Yeah, if you're from Ukraine or if you're from Hong Kong or a small number from Afghanistan or historically there was a Syrian vulnerable persons resettlement scheme. If you're from those countries, there are ways to come to the UK safely.
00:23:36
Speaker
If you're not, there's really very, very few options. There are schemes like the community sponsorship scheme that take in a few hundred people each year, but there's nothing on the scale that makes it a meaningful option for people who are caught up in conflict and crises around the world. And there's a real stark contrast to the United States, for example, which has a
00:23:59
Speaker
resettlement scheme whereby each year 125,000 people are eligible for resettlement in the United States. And it's not determined by nationality, you don't have to be from a particular place. The eligibility for that scheme is worked out between the US government and the UN HCR, the UN Refugee Agency, and it's based on need. And so people will come from different parts of the world each
00:24:24
Speaker
year. But the point is that there is a scheme that is flexible enough to shift in terms of who comes into the United States, depending on what's happening around the world. And the other thing that's very striking about that US example is not just that there's a decent number of places on the scheme, but also that there's a very set process for what happens when the refugees arrive. I went to our office in Baltimore, we have a resettlement
00:24:48
Speaker
office there. And it's essentially a 90-day program. So people arrive in the United States, they have 90 days to find employment, to find a house, to get their kids into a school, to access healthcare, and so on. It's an intensive 90-day program of support from the government and from partners like the IRC.
00:25:08
Speaker
But then that support ends and people are expected to be able to earn an income and get on with building their lives in the United States. And you meet people going through that program and it sounds sort of brutal on one level, the fact that there is this 90-day cutoff. But because the support is so intensive and clear in that early stage, people really are set up for success in a way that they're not here in the UK, as we've seen with the Afghans who have been in hotels.
00:25:35
Speaker
for 18 months now. There is no clear system of support for new arrivals but you see in the United States the difference that that makes. So I think there's lots that this government could do to improve its approach to refugees and asylum seekers generally but including through establishing a resettlement scheme modelled on that United States resettlement scheme where the places are available regardless of nationality and there's a clear support system once people arrive.
00:26:03
Speaker
Yes, that needs-based programme that you've just described in the US sounds so much more sensible and provides actual support for clients and refugees at the point of time that they need it when they actually arrive in a new country. What do you think needs to shift here? I mean, how can we change the broader narrative in the UK?
00:26:21
Speaker
Resettlement schemes aren't an alternative to the right to seek asylum. I think there also needs to be a way where a crisis happens unexpectedly and a few people are given the chance to come to the UK and to still have their case heard. So you still need that kind of quick reactive mechanism on top of a planned resettlement scheme. But the two working alongside each other is, I think, the right way to manage your refugee asylum policy well and effectively.
00:26:48
Speaker
But the public narrative really does worry me. There's a lot of the language that the government uses is quite dangerous and damaging. I think when I talk to our refugee clients in the UK, they tell me they feel unsafe and that's new. They're feeling more and more unsafe. And I think that's partly the consequence of the language that they're hearing to describe themselves and their families and the people in the countries where they're coming from.
00:27:11
Speaker
And what's the sad thing is, I think, when you poll people and when you explain to people the situation, actually, public opinion is much more favorable than you would sometimes think if you listen to some of the rhetoric coming out of government. So actually, we've just released some new polling data today. A couple of weeks ago, we commissioned a poll with YouGov and it found that 65% of people in the UK
00:27:37
Speaker
think that the UK should uphold the right to seek asylum. And equally, we asked people if the UK was in crisis and they had to flee, what would they expect? And 67% of people said that they thought they should be free to choose which country they go to and to seek asylum.
00:27:56
Speaker
So I think it's about once people sort of start to imagine, hang on, if I was in that situation, what would I do? The levels of empathy and understanding build quite quickly. This is a very welcoming country. There's a long history of welcoming refugees and tens of thousands of people have taken Ukrainians into their homes. You know, there is that wonderful culture and history of welcome.
00:28:18
Speaker
so it exists. But again, you don't always see it in the narratives in the media and some of the political narratives that are out there at the moment. Yes, it feels like we have lost the humanity in this discourse. And we're not actually seeing those individuals and refugees as human beings. And that is, as you say, very dangerous. And Laura, clearly a large part of your role is advocating for refugee rights and social justice.
Advice for Charity Leaders in Political Contexts
00:28:43
Speaker
Are there any lessons that you've learned or advice that you can give to other charity sector leaders with respect to influencing policymakers and parliamentarians? The approach that we always try to take is to be solutions oriented. And it's hard when you're talking about challenges on the scale that we've been talking about. But in my experience, that's
00:29:08
Speaker
been the best way to try and effect change is to understand the political context, to understand the public mood, to situate your suggestions in a sort of realistic political and public context, but to go in with solutions about what can change and what needs to change.
00:29:26
Speaker
And I think once you go in with a positive or proactive suggestion, you're much better received by people that we might be talking to in government or in parliament or even when we're talking to the media and to the public. I think to have a suggestion and it may not be the right one, there may be good reasons why it's not the right one, ultimately. But to try and be part of
00:29:45
Speaker
solving the problems I think is the most effective way to do the advocacy work that we do. And one of the benefits for us as IRC is that we're working here in the UK but we also have this global presence and so we see a lot of what's happening in other countries and there's a lot that we can learn from and sometimes those lessons come from the United States as we've been talking about in the case of refugee resettlement schemes. Sometimes those
00:30:10
Speaker
lessons come from places where you might not expect them to come from so naturally but if you look for example at Uganda, Uganda has some challenges at the moment but has a fantastic approach to welcoming refugees and they've accepted a lot of refugees from South Sudan and elsewhere and the approach is that they're given a patch of land and they're given a bit of seed funding to start producing food for themselves and ultimately if they can produce enough to earn an income.
00:30:36
Speaker
But thinking of refugees as potential earners and potential contributors to the economy and from day one is really, really effective. There's more than a million refugees in Uganda and that same approach is applied almost universally. There's a very different approach to here in the UK and there's a lot that we can learn from that. So being able to take best practice from all across the world and to bring that into the UK and to show that to politicians, you know, there are alternative ways of doing things can be quite powerful.
00:31:06
Speaker
Well, it sounds like you and your colleagues at the IRC UK definitely have your hands full at the moment, but tell us about some of the other campaigns or programmes that you're focused on in terms of your priorities for the next couple of years.
Climate Change and Displacement
00:31:19
Speaker
So a lot of what we focus on is driven by the different crises that are happening in the world. So Afghanistan has been a focus for us. Sudan is a focus for us now. There are lots of parts of the world that we're worried about in terms of deterioration of the situation there. We produce an emergency watch list each year, which
00:31:39
Speaker
spotlights the top 20 countries around the world that are at risk most at risk of deterioration in terms of the humanitarian situation. You can find that on our website actually it's quite an interesting read but those will be the countries that we sort of keep an eye on and we expect that we're going to have to do some advocacy and some campaigning and some fundraising on
00:32:00
Speaker
But aside from that, if you step back and look at the global trends, actually one that's really top of mind for me is the impact of climate change on our clients around the world. So we work with people who are forced to flee their homes. Increasingly, it's climate change that is
00:32:17
Speaker
the cause of people having to flee. And we saw it with the floods in Pakistan last year and the drought in Somalia. In fact, drought and floods have both been affecting Somalia somewhat counterintuitively. But more and more, we're seeing a
00:32:32
Speaker
strong need for climate adaptation and resilience to be part of our programming and preparation for climate induced disasters to be part of the emergency response work that we might need to do. And we're having to think creatively about what types of programs are right in that context where it's climate that's driving people's needs. We've got a really interesting pilot program underway in the Lake Chad region, Lake
00:32:59
Speaker
Chad is shrinking, it's on track to disappear within the next 20 years if action isn't taken. We work with people who are internally displaced and live in that region. And we've partnered with an organisation called the Circular Bioeconomy Alliance who are focused on sustainable solutions for nature. And we've come together to think what would a good programme intervention look like there that's going to work for the clients, for the people that live there, but also for
00:33:26
Speaker
nature for the planet and it's an area where there's a lot of cotton production but it's very water intensive and it's contributing to that shrinking of Lake Chad and what we're doing is working with farmers to plant not just the cotton plants but also fruit trees and timber trees that can help to restore the land there and contribute to restoring the biodiversity of that land that's been lost and it's early stages but it feels like it has great potential as a project that's
00:33:55
Speaker
smart about people and smart about the planet. And I think that's where the humanitarian sector needs to be going, working very, very closely with organisations that know about the effects of climate change and know about these nature-based solutions better than we do as a sector.
00:34:12
Speaker
there's lots of campaigning that needs to be done around that. It's very hard for fragile and conflict affected states to attract financing for those types of projects. And it's still early stages in terms of knowing what kind of solutions work and what kind of solutions don't when you're working in these places where there are so many risks.
00:34:31
Speaker
coming from so many different angles, whether that's the conflict or the economy or the refugee flows or the challenges of climate change, but smart solutions in that space and trying to get more people, more organisations like ours, deploying those solutions is a real priority, I think, over the next year or two. It's so interesting to hear about the project at Lake Chad, Laura, and you're absolutely right, the intersection of climate and conflict and poverty and all of these issues.
00:34:58
Speaker
actually mean that the solutions need to be much more holistic and collaborative and looking much more holistically at solutions. Yeah, you've got a very brilliant and passionate climate movement and a very brilliant and passionate humanitarian movement, but the two have operated quite separately and it's time for that to change. And bring them together. But, Laura, tell us more about your personal background and your journey.
Inspiration from Moscow Experience
00:35:20
Speaker
What has led you to where you are today?
00:35:23
Speaker
So I was fortunate to grow up in a very safe and secure and stable and happy home and before I went to university I spent a year in Moscow and I was teaching English and I was working in something called the Chechen Refugee Centre and it was the first time that I realised that
00:35:41
Speaker
everything that I had taken for granted as a kid. Lots of people weren't fortunate enough to be able to have a place they could call home that they could live in safely. So it was working with these Chechen refugees that really brought that home to me. And of course, I mean, the Russian government didn't recognise them as refugees. There were no services, no support provided to them. We were doing little bits of basic education and social activities and just
00:36:06
Speaker
doing what we could to give the kids, which was working with the kids, giving them just something to do every day and a bit of a sense of hope and purpose. But just hearing from them what it felt like to have left this dangerous place that they
00:36:21
Speaker
could no longer live in. It really brought home to me how tricky it is to be in that situation without the certainty of a place you can call home. And so that was what got me interested in working in the refugee sector. And I worked in government for a bit, and I worked in the private sector for a bit. I've been in IRC for several or eight years, but I'm
00:36:41
Speaker
glad to be here and to be playing at least a small part in trying to make a difference on some of these big global challenges that we're facing. And looking back on your time as a leader, Laura, is there any advice that you would give to yourself on day one of becoming a chief exec or becoming a leader in this space?
00:36:58
Speaker
Great question. The thing that is toughest I think is making choices. There's so much to be done and you want to do everything and you can't and so being quite specific about what you can and can't do and how you're going to do it is really important and I think I've definitely been through
00:37:18
Speaker
periods where I've wanted to achieve more than is possible or I've not been clear enough about defining the value out of IRC or the value out of previous roles I've had but doing that is so important. It was something that I heard from another leader, a business leader actually, that really stuck with me which was
00:37:37
Speaker
yes is better than no but no is better than maybe and it was exactly that point that yes say yes and do things if you can but if you can't say no and I think it's staying away from that sort of maybe area we'll try but we're not sure how is very hard to do but very important to do if you want to lead effectively.
00:37:56
Speaker
I love that. Yes is better than no, but no is better than maybe, so just being clear on what you can and can't do. Great advice there. Laura, tell us a little bit about David Miliband. Do you interface with him much? He obviously leads the IRC International. I mean, what have you learnt from him?
00:38:13
Speaker
Yes, I intersect with him a lot and he's a fantastic boss, I have to say. He's been at IRC for 10 years and has driven a huge amount of growth and impact for our clients in that time. He's very good on that strategic clarity point. And he talks a lot about a bias to action, which I like as well. He encourages that in all of us. Have a try, start doing things, see if it works. Don't be afraid to take risks.
00:38:40
Speaker
It's a great mentality I think for the organisation and so important ultimately for our clients that we're going to be there and trying to do things and trying to make a difference quickly and not afraid to do that even when it can feel hard and risky.
Hope Through Successful Interventions
00:38:54
Speaker
I like that, bias to action, that's really captures so much in how that's articulated.
00:39:00
Speaker
So Laura, it's been so lovely speaking with you today and as we are coming to a close, what is one thing you would like listeners to take away from this conversation? Give us one final thought or reflection. I often feel talking about my job that you get onto quite tricky and gloomy subjects, quite quickly the crisis in Afghanistan and Sudan and Ukraine and the challenges for refugees here.
00:39:23
Speaker
I think my key takeaway would be there is always cause for optimism and there always are solutions if you can work hard enough to find them. And I think about places where the IOC has worked previously like Liberia. We used to have a very large program there. We don't work there anymore because it is stable enough and people can survive and thrive without IOC and other INGOs being there. And so you can point to these really heartening examples of where
00:39:51
Speaker
things have improved and that's great. And equally for people who are still caught in that moment of crisis, there is always a courage and a bravery and an optimism and a determination that's really heartening if I think about these Congolese refugees in Nairobi, really tricky circumstances. And they're having a go at rebuilding their lives and they'll do that, they'll succeed.
00:40:15
Speaker
So you feel the optimism from the people that we work with. And I just think you can't despair. You have to trust that there are ways to make things better and trust that if you're someone like myself who's fortunate enough to be able to try and do something to help, there is always something that you can do. On that optimistic note of there is always a brighter tomorrow and a solution to be found, Laura, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.
Episode Wrap-up and Listener Engagement
00:40:46
Speaker
And that's a wrap on another inspiring episode of the Charity CEO podcast. I hope you found the conversation thought-provoking and uplifting. I certainly did. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd be thrilled if you could share the joy by leaving us a review on your favourite podcast platform. Tag us on Twitter, LinkedIn or Instagram. We'd love hearing from our listeners.
00:41:06
Speaker
To stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit that subscribe button on your podcast app. And for even more resources and show details, head on over to our website, thecharityceo.com. There you'll find information on past episodes and a place to submit ideas for future guests. Thank you for listening.