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Ep 46. Nisha Anand, CEO Dream.Org: Finding common ground with unlikely allies
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“The humanity that connects us is stronger than what has been created to divide us”.
Nisha Anand is the CEO of Dream.Org, a nonprofit organization that brings people together across racial, social and partisan lines to solve society’s toughest problems. A born change-maker, Nisha was arrested in 1998 while handing out pro-democracy leaflets in the military dictatorship of Myanmar and was sentenced to five years in jail. Her arrest put her on the international stage and changed her thinking on how to bring about lasting change and reform.
This is her story and that of Dream.org, an organisation that was founded by CNN commentator and New York Times bestselling author, Van Jones, and that Nisha has led as CEO since 2019. With her team at Dream.org, Nisha works at the intersection of criminal justice reform, green economics and tech equity, to develop innovative solutions to social and racial justice issues. Recorded August 2023.
Guest Biography
Nisha Anand is an Indian-American activist, mom of two teenagers, and a boundary-busting national leader for social and racial justice. Once a grassroots activist arrested in Burma for påro-democracy demonstrations, Nisha is known today as a leader in cultivating unlikely and unconventional partnerships to create change.
As Dream.Org’s CEO, Nisha guides a team of storytellers, organizers, and policy experts working on some of society’s toughest problems to create a better future for all.
Links
www.dream.org
Nisha Anand is the CEO of Dream.Org, a nonprofit organization that brings people together across racial, social and partisan lines to solve society’s toughest problems. A born change-maker, Nisha was arrested in 1998 while handing out pro-democracy leaflets in the military dictatorship of Myanmar and was sentenced to five years in jail. Her arrest put her on the international stage and changed her thinking on how to bring about lasting change and reform.
This is her story and that of Dream.org, an organisation that was founded by CNN commentator and New York Times bestselling author, Van Jones, and that Nisha has led as CEO since 2019. With her team at Dream.org, Nisha works at the intersection of criminal justice reform, green economics and tech equity, to develop innovative solutions to social and racial justice issues. Recorded August 2023.
Guest Biography
Nisha Anand is an Indian-American activist, mom of two teenagers, and a boundary-busting national leader for social and racial justice. Once a grassroots activist arrested in Burma for påro-democracy demonstrations, Nisha is known today as a leader in cultivating unlikely and unconventional partnerships to create change.
As Dream.Org’s CEO, Nisha guides a team of storytellers, organizers, and policy experts working on some of society’s toughest problems to create a better future for all.
Links
www.dream.org
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Transcript
Authenticity in Leadership
00:00:00
Speaker
I don't think about trying to play any different role or be any different way than who I am. And maybe that comes with positional power, right? I'm the CEO at dream.org. But I also think a lot of it just comes from these life lessons and this wisdom that anytime I've gotten a win, pretending to be something I'm not, it's never actually a good win. And if that's true for me, it has to be true for everyone else at the table. So if I want to win where I get to fully be myself,
00:00:29
Speaker
I also have to put a stake in the ground that says, I want that person across the table from me to also show up to fully be themselves. So yes, I don't deny I am a feminist leader. I absolutely come from places of privilege and from places of oppression. I am all of that in the room. I have blind spots. I have areas of weakness and I expect you to help point them out for me and I'll help point them out for you.
Introduction to Charity CEO Podcast
00:01:05
Speaker
Welcome to an exciting new season of the Charity CEO podcast, where we bring you the stories and insights of remarkable charity leaders who are changing the world for the better. We talk to the people who run nonprofits, the movers and shakers, who are driving positive change in this space, inspiring you to take bold action and make a difference.
00:01:24
Speaker
To all our listeners across the globe, I am thrilled to have you with us. We've received amazing feedback from listeners in over 42 countries, including the UK, US, Australia, Canada, and India. Your support and engagement is what makes this community so special. To all of you who pour your hearts and souls into making the world a better place through your work in the charity and nonprofit sectors, thank you. I'm Divya O'Connor, and here's the show.
Meet Nisha Anand: Activism and Arrest in Myanmar
00:01:52
Speaker
Nisha Anand is the CEO of Dream.org, a nonprofit organization that brings people together across racial, social and partisan lines to solve society's toughest problems. A born changemaker, Nisha was arrested in 1998 whilst handing out pro-democracy leaflets in the military dictatorship of Myanmar and was sentenced to five years in jail. Her arrest put her on the international stage and changed her thinking on how to bring about lasting change and reform.
00:02:19
Speaker
This is her story, and that of Dream.org, an organisation that was founded by CNN commentator and bestselling author Van Jones, and that Nisha has led as CEO since 2019. With her team at Dream.org, Nisha works at the intersection of criminal justice reform, green economics and tech equity to develop innovative solutions to social and racial justice issues. Enjoy the conversation.
00:02:43
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Society. Society is an executive search firm that partners with responsible businesses and purpose-driven organizations to strengthen diversity and inclusion across senior leadership and board appointments. As a certified B Corp, they believe that all organizations can have a positive social impact and that careers should have purpose and meaning. Society's goal is to change the world for the better, one appointment at a time.
00:03:10
Speaker
visit their website society-search.com for further details. Now, on with the show.
Feminist Statement: Nisha's High School Protest
00:03:19
Speaker
Hi, Nisha, welcome to the Charity CEO podcast. It's a real pleasure to have you on the show. Yes, thanks for having me on. So I always start the show with a few icebreaker questions just to get a little insight into my guests as human beings and try and understand what really motivates and inspires you. So Nisha, if you're ready, we can get started. Let's go. Question one, what was your first act of civil disobedience? My first act of civil disobedience must have been when I was in
00:03:48
Speaker
High school, I wasn't shaving my legs because I was a young feminist and I thought, why should I have to shave my legs? And so I started sometimes I'd wear the boys uniform, which was called the boys uniform if I didn't want to attract attention. But other times I'd wear my skirt and I'd have hairy legs. And that was my political statement. But I got in trouble.
00:04:09
Speaker
which is funny now to think about, but the disciplinarian, she called me into her office and I got this long lecture about it being unhygienic. And I believe she said something like, this isn't Europe, you have to shave your legs here, which was a pretty funny statement back then. But I think I gave her a long speech about patriarchy. And not only did I not shave my legs, but I then organized a bunch of my other friends at school for them to stop shaving their legs. And it became quite a big controversy.
00:04:36
Speaker
And after I left, they changed the uniform policy in the student handbook to be very explicit about what you could and couldn't wear and what your leg hair had to be. So I definitely made a statement there, but unfortunately, I think the reaction, this was the early 90s, was I didn't quite, I did still have to clean the cafeteria for 10 days, let's just say that.
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah. And then the girls were not allowed to wear trousers after that. They had to wear skirts. Not that was now in the uniform that they were not allowed to wear pants anymore. Wow. I love that story. Question two. What would you say is your professional superpower?
Building Bridges: Nisha's Professional Superpower
00:05:17
Speaker
For me, my professional superpower is my ability to build bridges, to work with anybody who wants to come to the table and do good work. I just think they're I'm a first generation American.
00:05:30
Speaker
My parents are from India, I grew up in America, and I was always that translator between the old world and the new. And I think that that role, always being in that role, allows me to see the other sides and really bring folks together to solve some tough challenges. Yes, we will come on to talk about building bridges a little bit later on in the conversation. But question three, what hobby or activity do you turn to when you want to disconnect from work?
00:05:57
Speaker
Well, I've been on the same soccer team for 15 years now. It's an adult co-ed soccer league, and I just had two games yesterday. It's funny, I dropped my son off for his freshman year of college on Friday. I flew to New York on Friday and dropped him off, flew back to California yesterday just in time to change and go play soccer with my team. So I do think that playing soccer or football, as you call it, is my way to forget about all the other things going on and just have some fun.
00:06:27
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Question four, share with us a favorite quote or saying that you live by and why it is important to you.
Personal Philosophy: Owning Faults
00:06:35
Speaker
One of the ones, and I tell my kids this a lot, is hope it's your fault. And for me, that means that anything that goes wrong, hope that it's your fault.
00:06:45
Speaker
Because one, it usually is. Even if 99% of it is someone else's fault, there's always 1% of it that's probably your fault, but maybe more. But the reason why you want to hope it's your fault is you can change that. That you have control over. And that's one of the ones I always try to remember, okay, what part of it is my part? What part can I do better? How can I fix it moving forward? I tell that to my kids. I tell it to my staff. It's certainly one that I live by.
00:07:12
Speaker
Wow, that's not one I've heard before. Hope it's your fault. Lovely. And it usually is. Yes, indeed, in most situations. Final icebreaker question. If you had the opportunity to interview anyone in the world dead or alive, who would it be and what one question would you like to ask them? Oh, wow, that's a great one. I have lately been feeling like I miss my grandparents. And
00:07:39
Speaker
They died when I was younger, high school and college age. And of course I did get some quality time with them, but I don't think you get how valuable they are until later in life. And so I would want to know more about our history. I would want to know more about certain stories I've heard. And so the one question I'd ask, I don't know if there's one, but I think it would be something like, tell me everything, tell me about your life.
00:08:06
Speaker
I'm very curious. There's a lot I don't know, especially about my mom's side of the family that I would be curious to know more about. Absolutely. So Nisha, you are the CEO of the nonprofit dream.org.
Activist Roots and Myanmar Arrest
00:08:22
Speaker
And I would normally start these conversations asking about the origin story of your organization. But having watched your TED talk, I'm absolutely fascinated by your personal story. So I'd actually like to start there.
00:08:34
Speaker
So tell us about your activist roots and in particular getting arrested in Myanmar. Quite a story. I was a young activist, like I've already mentioned in high school, not shaving my legs. I was kind of just a person for any cause. If I could make a statement, I would make a statement. And I think that that was a little bit of just being a rebel at heart. But I also felt like I was a bit of a misfit. I didn't quite fit in anywhere.
00:09:00
Speaker
Growing up in Atlanta, Georgia in the South in the 80s. It was a very segregated. It still is quite a segregated area It was very much black or white and someone like me who was neither Didn't quite know my place and often I was told to be in the other place and in one room I was no you belong there another you belong there and there's this misfit feeling of not really belonging anywhere and I think that is related to my superpower. I learned how to
00:09:29
Speaker
actually belong everywhere. And I had this passion for justice. I think stemming from that, I didn't want anyone else to be left out or left behind or excluded. And so anywhere I saw injustice or where someone was in this place of not belonging, I had to make a stand and I made it pretty fiercely.
00:09:52
Speaker
And as a young activist, I was arrested probably a dozen times for different causes. Anything that sounded important, I would be an activist for. I think there was a bit of breaking the mold for my parents. Being first generation immigrants, they really did have this dream of me having this great life. And for them, it's very different than what I saw for myself for a great life. I feel like I was given this opportunity to be anything.
00:10:19
Speaker
And I think for my parents, there was a struggle of we want her to be really successful, whether that is marrying somebody that fit their definition of success or going into one of the fields they understood, like engineering or medicine or even law would make a lot more sense than what I did want to do, which was make a difference in the world.
00:10:39
Speaker
I went pretty hard. I was a young activist, arrested a dozen times. And you asked me about one particular arrest, which was in 1998. I agreed to go to Thailand with an activist group at my college. They were the Free Burma Coalition. And they were really active on campus. And they said, let's go to Thailand and learn about the struggle for democracy and freedom in Burma or Myanmar.
00:11:02
Speaker
And I said, sign me up, I'm going on this trip. And within a week or two on the trip, spending time in the refugee areas, in the guerrilla camps with a lot of people who had fled Burma and were now in exile, I got even more passionate about the cause. And so when a woman said she was organizing a protest to go into the military dictatorship,
00:11:23
Speaker
on the 10-year anniversary of what's known as 8888. August 8th of 1988 was a large uprising and a subsequent massacre by the military dictatorship of students rising up for democracy. And 10 years later, I happened to be in Thailand around that time, and she was organizing a protest.
00:11:44
Speaker
people from around the world. We went in to Myanmar on that date, smuggled in these little leaflets inside of our sandals, like we cut holes in the soles of our shoes, we put them in our backpack, because it's highly illegal to do what we did in the military dictatorship in our, it was a business card size leaflet. And it said, we are your friends from around the world. We support your hopes for human rights and democracy. That's all it said.
00:12:11
Speaker
It was a really well-planned action. We were from, I believe, eight different countries, handed out the leaflets on the morning for five minutes, and we were all supposed to get back to the airport and get on a plane and arrive back in Thailand. And I thought, for sure, just like every other time I'd be arrested, it's just gonna be fine. The naivety of youth is a beautiful thing. I thought it would be fine, but I was arrested, as was all 18 of us were arrested. None of us made it back to Thailand. And at that moment,
00:12:41
Speaker
It was a well-planned action in that Debbie Stothert, she runs an organization called Altzion. She called all of our embassy reps. She called all of our parents. She called everybody. It became a national news story. And I spent a week in that prison not knowing what was going to happen. On the last day, they sent us to a trial, which was all conducted in Burmese. So I could not understand a word of it, except for the end when we were told that we were all sentenced to five years of hard labor.
00:13:11
Speaker
for our action. And that moment was obviously very scary, but I remember saying, I can't show fear, I can't show fear. And as we were walking out of the courtroom, one of the people who worked there whispered in my ear, you guys will be deported tomorrow. And we were, we were all deported. So I didn't spend that five years of hard labor. We were deported.
00:13:35
Speaker
I usually tell the story much shorter version that went a long time because the thing that really struck me was that the diplomat from the United States who flew over to help get us out of this situation was Representative Chris Smith from New Jersey. He's a Republican senator. Now, I was an activist, so I'm very much on the other side. And I thought, this guy is going to come over. He represents the government. He's still in Congress today.
00:14:04
Speaker
30 years later, whatever it is. And I thought on the flight home, I have a captive audience for 20 hours. I'm going to sit next to this man who doesn't believe any of the things I believe. I definitely saw at that point the Republicans as the enemy. And I was going to tell him all of these things and convince him because I was also a big debate nerd. And instead, we sat on that plane and talked about all the things we had in common. He was the head of the Human Rights Commission.
00:14:33
Speaker
in the states and for the Congress. And that meant we had a lot of things that we had shared interest in, human rights abuses around the world. And it really opened up for me the experience of what I'm doing now, that there are a lot of people out there everywhere that want to help, maybe for different reasons than you do, maybe for the same reasons. Maybe they don't know the reasons yet. They just want to help, that want to help.
00:14:59
Speaker
solve some of these really difficult challenges and problems. So it opened my mind up to that. The Republicans aren't the enemy, just people who might have different values, but still want the world to be a better place. Wow, what a story. And Nisha, I think that's a great segue to come on to talk about Dream.org and its origins with its charismatic founder, Van Jones. So tell us about Van and his dream and vision when he started the movement that today is Dream.org and how the organization has evolved over the past decade or so.
Dream.org's Mission and Focus
00:15:29
Speaker
So our earliest initiative that Van Jones founded was Green for All, and he founded it in 2008, 2009. And it was this idea that this green movement was coming, and it was going to completely miss communities of color. And he could see this quite clearly within the Bay Area. You have some of the leading environmentalists out there, and you have some of the poorest communities there are.
00:15:55
Speaker
And a lot of the stuff that folks that I'm on the left with work on police brutality, death penalty, criminal justice reform, a lot of these issues didn't intersect at all with the Green Movement. But Van and every initiative he founded is very forward thinking, what is the future we're trying to build? And what is the solution to get us to the next level? And he thought, I want to bring this green, clean, green jobs
00:16:20
Speaker
to the communities that are gonna need it the most and green for all was born on this idea that if green jobs are coming it should definitely be for our communities and that kind of forward-looking thinking how to bring things together for a future that works for everybody that's been a part of every initiative that we have founded since so green for all being the earliest one
00:16:41
Speaker
And the two other initiatives that we have right now were founded as Yes We Code, which was an initiative founded between Van Jones and Prince. And the exact same idea is green for all, that tech jobs are the jobs of the future. And Oakland is 20 minutes from Silicon Valley, but it's incredibly hard for a kid from Oakland to get a job in Silicon Valley with what our education system and training system is right now.
00:17:05
Speaker
And Yes We Code was born, and after that cut 50, which was the idea, can we cut the prison population in half by 50% in the next 20 years? And that was founded with Newt Gingrich, who is a Republican. He was Speaker of the House when I was growing up in the 90s. He definitely helped usher in our era of mass incarceration. And all of a sudden, he now wanted to help reverse it. And so all of these initiatives, what they have in common is very future focused.
00:17:35
Speaker
What's the world we're trying to build? And what is the biggest table possible we can create to build that world with? And so we work with unlikely allies and partners from all different sectors of the economy, all different political persuasions, every type of background you can imagine, because those solutions, they're great solutions because they bring in different ideas. They're also durable. We pass a lot of legislation.
00:18:03
Speaker
They don't get overturned when you have a bipartisan, you have a large consensus. It's harder to overturn. So it's not just that it's the right thing to do to be inclusive. That speaks to my heart of not wanting to
00:18:14
Speaker
leave anyone out or leave people behind. It's not just the right thing to do. It's also the most pragmatic and the most strategic. You get it done when you include people, and it won't get easily turned over. And so that's at the heart of everything we do at dream.org.
First Step Act: Bipartisan Reform
00:18:29
Speaker
Nisha, talking about cutting the prison population and legislation, I know that a few years ago, you and your team were involved in the landmark criminal justice reform legislation called the First Step Act, and that this was under the Trump administration.
00:18:42
Speaker
So for those of us on this side of the pond who may not be so familiar with this, tell us about that legislation and specifically why it was significant. And I'm also interested to hear how you reconcile your personal position of being someone who's on the liberal left to work with President Trump. Yeah, absolutely. It's quite a story.
00:19:03
Speaker
In the US, our incarceration rates, they're some of the highest in the world. We have like 2.5% of the world's population and we have 25% of the world's prisoners. It is bizarre. And it wasn't always this way. The increase in incarceration has grown
00:19:22
Speaker
at such an incredible rate since the nineties when we passed some criminal justice reform under the clinton administration back in the nineties that ushered in this just really strong ramp up in the incarceration industry so we have a prison problem we over incarcerate their folks inside who are still in there for marijuana charges even though marijuana is mostly legal
00:19:43
Speaker
in this country. We had this thing called mandatory minimums that there was a minimum sentence you had to get regardless of the circumstances of the crime. And so people are serving these long sentences for things that they're not actually a danger to society. And our system doesn't have a lot of rehabilitation. It's bad. It's not working. People recidivate at rates that are just unbelievable. And so this is a problem that actually for me is uniquely seen with people of color and specifically the black population. So I've always been
00:20:12
Speaker
interest in this issue as a justice angle. But when I started working at dream.org, which was 10 years ago now,
00:20:21
Speaker
I interviewed with Van Jones and he told me I'm gonna pass bipartisan criminal justice reform legislation. And I laughed because the word bipartisan criminal justice legislation, that seemed like an oxymoron to me. I had been on the streets. I had gotten arrested on criminal justice reform stuff for a long time. I had never seen a Republican out there with me. In fact, I had been protesting outside of the Republican National Convention for criminal justice reform and had been arrested.
00:20:50
Speaker
It did not seem possible. But he walked me through why it was possible, which was that I come from a justice standpoint, right? I see that it's a system that targets unfairly people of color, especially black folks in the United States. And it is used as a weapon and nobody gets better from it. It tears apart communities, it hurts family. I have justice at the heart of why I care about changing this.
00:21:18
Speaker
But on the right, people have very different reasons. Fiscal conservatives don't like that it spends a lot of taxpayer dollars on the system. A lot of their tax money goes to incarcerating people. We have social conservatives who in this country really do believe in second chances and redemption. They don't believe in the death penalty, which we still have in the U.S.
00:21:40
Speaker
And they see a system that isn't about rehabilitation. It isn't about second chances. So they have some alignment. And you have libertarian conservatives on the far right who really don't like any state interference. They think our drug laws are too much. They think we are over-incarcerating people. So you had three parts of what makes up our Republican right party, three different factions of it, who care about criminal justice reform for completely different reasons than I do.
00:22:09
Speaker
And knowing that, a coalition can be born. And so we had this really strange coalition of folks wanting to pass criminal justice reform under the Obama administration. When Trump became president, we had to ask ourselves, do we continue doing this? Or do we wait?
00:22:29
Speaker
And for us, there was really no debating. Why would we wait? When we had this coalition, if we could get people out of prison, why would we not do that? There is nobody sitting there inside with 80 year life sentence that's saying, yeah, I'll just wait another four years until you have a president you like. So we continue. And
00:22:50
Speaker
We passed the First Step Act five years ago. It's going to be on its five-year anniversary. We have 100 senators. At that point, they were split with more Republicans than Democrats at that moment, I believe, but pretty split down the middle, 50-50. We passed it with 89 yes votes. So it's not just a little bit of bipartisanship. It was major bipartisanship. And since that time, five years ago, 25,000 people have come home from federal prison, from this one piece of legislation.
00:23:19
Speaker
federal prison is much smaller than our state prisons. So since then, a lot of copycat bills along all of the states have been passed as well so that more people are coming home from smaller state bills. So this was a huge accomplishment. And it's not going to be overturned. It's one of the things I'm most proud of. And it meant that, yes, at the end of the day in our country, the president has to sign the bill.
00:23:43
Speaker
which means Trump had to sign it. That's how we do it. I mean, there wasn't a reason to stop. There wasn't a reason to say no. And yes, a lot of people didn't like that we were working with him. And to that, I say, ask anyone who's come home from prison if they're mad that we worked with him to do that.
00:23:59
Speaker
Wow, that's such a powerful story. And as you say, it's about finding out what's important to different people when you bring that coalition together. And yeah, congratulations. I'm sure all the people who have come home are very grateful that you persevered. And Nisha, given your success in fostering these kinds of bipartisan relationships, what lessons can you share with respect to how nonprofit leaders can influence people and policymakers who may come from the opposite side of the aisle?
00:24:29
Speaker
I think the most important thing is to know your own values. First and foremost, a lot of times when folks hear that I work across the aisle or I do bridge building or I find common ground, they have a misconception that that means I'm always compromising. I'm always wishy washy. I'm always getting used by other people. This is a really common misconception, and I think it couldn't be farther from the truth. If you know your own values and you know what's important to you,
00:24:58
Speaker
then you can't be threatened by everyone else's values. My values are what they are. We can have different values. I will always advocate for the things that are passionate for me, and I expect you to advocate for the things that you are passionate about as well. For me, I'm always going to think about equity. I'm that little kid who didn't want to be left out and left behind. So that's always going to be the forefront of my mind.
00:25:23
Speaker
What's not usually at the forefront of my mind is individual liberties, this pursuit of like an individual dream and being able to make your mark moving ahead. That's usually a value that's held on the right. So if I'm crafting a policy, my Republican partners can count on me to bring the equity piece in the room. I can count on them to say if I'm about to trample on someone's individual rights, because I don't usually see that. That's a blind spot I have.
00:25:50
Speaker
A blind spot they might have is something that I can point out. I think that's important. Know your values and don't compromise on that. It's a beautiful thing when I can be in a room with diverse partners and they know, oh,
00:26:03
Speaker
You know what? Not, oh, here comes Nisha. She's going to talk about racism again. That's not what happens. They're like, let me turn to Nisha because she's going to explain how this might have an impact on whole communities. So I don't feel like I compromise. I feel like I bring understanding of myself. That means you have to be open to understanding the other human next to you that's coming to you from a very different set of life experiences with values that are very different than your own. So that's the first tip is know your own values and never compromise on those.
00:26:32
Speaker
I've heard you say that the humanity that connects us is stronger than what has been created to divide us, which is really this concept of what you were just describing of radical common ground and radical inclusion. I'm curious to hear, Nisha, how do you see yourself bringing those values in terms of being a feminist leader and being someone who really lives out those radically inclusive values on a day-to-day basis?
00:27:00
Speaker
What does that mean to you and how do you bring it to your day to day work? I love that question and I think it's been an evolution over time as a young
00:27:09
Speaker
leader, I was a young activist leader before I had any positions of power in the nonprofit world, I used to think I might have to hide it to be non-threatening. I would maybe play a few different roles, try to be quiet about my politics so I could get into the room or try to play this thing that women sometimes do, try to play a little bit dumb so that I'm seen as not threatening and then I can make a smart point later on. That certainly was a young thing that I think I evolved through.
00:27:36
Speaker
I love the question because now that stuff doesn't even enter my brain anymore. I don't think about trying to play any different role or be any different way than who I am. And maybe that comes with positional power, right? I'm the CEO at dream.org. But I also think a lot of it just comes from these life lessons and this wisdom that anytime I've gotten a win, pretending to be something I'm not, it's never actually a good win. And if that's true for me,
00:28:05
Speaker
It has to be true for everyone else at the table. So if I want to win where I get to fully be myself, I also have to put a stake in the ground that says, I want that person across the table from me to also show up to fully be themselves. So yes, I don't deny. I am a feminist leader. I absolutely come from places of privilege and from places of oppression. I am all of that in the room. I have blind spots. I have areas of weakness and I expect you to help point them out for me.
00:28:36
Speaker
and I'll help point them out for you. Maybe it comes with age, maybe it comes with time, maybe it comes with life lessons, but man, I'm so glad I'm not pretending like I was as a young leader.
00:28:49
Speaker
Nish, I'd like to come back to something that you alluded to earlier in our conversation, which is about the history and your grandparents in particular. In your TED talk, you make reference to partition in India and how your father and his family, being Hindu, had to flee the territory that later became Pakistan. I was wondering if you could share that story and how it came to influence you and your thinking today.
00:29:14
Speaker
I grew up with that story, obviously, being a first generation American, I was told the story of Indian independence in this huge, victorious, beautiful way. We had the movie Gandhi, right, that we would watch. And so we understood the Indian independence movement to be this beautiful thing. And my father was born in 45. So very much a child of the partition, they were a family of six kids. And during the
00:29:41
Speaker
partition, which for folks who don't know, this was as the British were leaving India. They just drew a line that said, you know what, y'all are kind of fighting. I'm just going to draw this arbitrary line. This part is one country. This part is the other deal with it gone. And my parents were Hindu, trapped on one side of the border, which would become Pakistan and had to go into hiding. I was told the story of them being in hiding and my father crying while they were hiding in this home.
00:30:11
Speaker
when a military person came by to check, or it could have been a vigilante, I can't remember. But I've heard the story very dramatically. When I was little, I think it was, oh, my family successfully fled to the other side. Then later it was this threatening thing. And my father was the centerpiece of the story, that he started crying. And my grandfather
00:30:31
Speaker
had made the decision in that moment that he would have to sacrifice my father in order to save the whole family. And my grandmother, not accepting that outcome, started shaking my father, trying to get him to stop crying. And miraculously, the story I was told was at just the right moment. My father stopped crying and he was spared. That's why I'm here today. And the whole family survived to tell this story.
00:30:59
Speaker
That story lives with you. It is so powerful. It's never escaped me. I've always thought about it. I can look at my dad and still think what a miracle it is that we are here. That was the largest forced migration in human history of people that were fleeing on both sides. Muslim people leaving India, Hindu people leaving. It was a very horrible time. At that moment, it was okay to kill someone with a different faith than you. And it would just have been acceptable.
00:31:29
Speaker
And I grew up with that. What I didn't realize until much later, and I'm not exactly sure I would love to talk to my grandparents about this, why they didn't tell us this part of the story. But obviously it was a Muslim family who hid my Hindu family.
00:31:47
Speaker
It was their neighbors. It was the people that they had been sharing meals with for the last decade. These are the people that they know we are in community together. We share the same things. It had to be a Muslim family that would hide my Hindu family. And another part of the story that came out was that at one time when they were in hiding, my family overheard
00:32:13
Speaker
the militia or whoever it was that came in, make them swear on the Quran that they were not hiding any Hindus in their home. And that is a huge deal. And when my father recounted that story to me later in life, he was a baby. In thinking about it, he started crying. I realized what it is that people will do for that common humanity. So when people tell me that they can't break bread with someone who voted for Trump, because that's the most horrible thing that's ever happened to him,
00:32:44
Speaker
I think about my family, there's much more horrible things that people have been torn apart because of. And they have made much bigger sacrifices in moments where it is a significant cost to them that people have been able to come together and do that. And that Muslim family that saved our life, I mean, I owe my life to them as well. And that's important to remember that we can come together under harder things.
00:33:13
Speaker
It must be a piece of who I am. Wow. That's such an amazing story. And you're absolutely right. It's the humanity that really shone through there and saved you all. And it sometimes feels in today's world with really polarized views and opinions that that humanity has gotten forgotten somehow in the public discourse, where everything is really almost aggression and violence against somebody who might just have a different point of view, let alone a different faith or different religion. Right.
00:33:41
Speaker
Nisha, you and I were chatting earlier about SoCap, the annual conference held by the social impact investing community, which I understand this year is being held in San Francisco again this October. And you talked about a one million prize for innovation in the field of justice tech that Dream.org is offering.
Innovating Justice Technology
00:34:04
Speaker
So I know it's a little bit of a change of track here, but tell us about that prize and what you are seeking to achieve with it.
00:34:10
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Earlier, we talked about criminal justice reform and changing some of the laws that we can to bring more justice into the system. And so we will keep doing that. We are all around the country passing pieces of laws that make things better, either for people inside or for people coming home. That is important work. But the problem that we have in our incarceration system is so much bigger than that. And I actually think we need not just reform, we need a big leap.
00:34:40
Speaker
in advancement to change the way we deal with crime and punishment and rehabilitation in this country. And the idea is this is a system really ready for disruption. If you think about what Silicon Valley has disrupted so far, it's usually systems where there is major inefficiencies or corruption or there are results that don't make sense or the incentives are all wrong. The incarceration industry has all of that.
00:35:08
Speaker
you get more money, the more people you lock up. There's no rehabilitation. There's certainly a lot of government corruption or corruption by the amount of money that's going, who's gets the contracts to, if it costs $60,000 a year to incarcerate one person, I am positive we can get better results.
00:35:26
Speaker
than what we're getting right now with that amount of money. And so the idea of justice innovation was born. What are the ideas out there from people on the ground who've experienced it or folks that can see kind of the inefficiencies of the system that could completely transform it?
00:35:41
Speaker
We use dungeons as our technology right now to deal with crime. There has to be a better technology in this day and age and we want to find it. And so we offered a million dollar prize for any of the ideas that can make a big advancement in what is the justice tech space or what we're calling justice innovation. And we just want to start small.
00:36:05
Speaker
and see what big ideas are out there to kind of get this field get the ideas going and so in november we're offering a million dollars we did a year-long prize competition we've narrowed it down i believe at this moment that we're talking it's at fifteen we're gonna narrow it down to ten and then five by the time of the prize and the top ones will get this prize to build their idea seed funding to build this company
00:36:28
Speaker
I hope the results are going to be a massive transformation in how this country thinks about incarceration. But we're just beginning. And that's the exciting part of any movement that I've been part of is the start, the seed, the spark, the excitement for a possibility that we don't yet know what it looks like.
00:36:48
Speaker
Yes, that sounds really exciting and I look forward to seeing what ideas actually win and go on to have that impact. I know that you also offer something called the Dream Fellowship for grassroots change makers. Tell us about that and how folks can apply for it. Yeah, I think that there are a lot of people out there who want to make change the way that dream.org makes change. When I was young, the model I went, it's an important model. Be loud, be in your face,
00:37:17
Speaker
Be an activist that helps change the conversation out on the streets every day. That is absolutely necessary in making change. But also we think there are a lot of people out there that are yearning to make change by bringing people together. And for those folks, we want to be a home for changemakers like that to let you know there is a different way that you don't have to further divide people. You don't have to be in this polarized environment that we're in right now.
00:37:43
Speaker
and make change. And so for those folks like us, the other people out there who want to learn about the dream.org way, we have two cohorts right now that run one for our formerly incarcerated leaders, the empathy network.
00:37:56
Speaker
So each summer, our empathy cohort comes together, people from all around the country who are trying to change laws in the criminal justice system in their own states. They learn all of our techniques and how to do that, and we support them throughout the year to make those changes. And for this year, we just had our first one of JustDream.org members.
00:38:15
Speaker
who want to make change on any issues in their area using the dream.org way of bringing people together and solving these challenges. And so we just started that one, which I'm very excited about. And for anyone that is interested and wants to be a part of this type of change making, certainly visit dream.org and learn more about our cohorts. Excellent. And tell us about some of the other campaigns that you and your colleagues are focused on at the moment. I know you have the green vertical as well, and you're doing lots in the climate space.
00:38:44
Speaker
Yes, the green vertical gets a little more nerdy right now. And the reason is that last year we passed the Inflation Reduction Act in Congress, which is going to give $369 billion across the country to help with climate change. And what this looks like is sometimes it's climate infrastructure building
00:39:06
Speaker
the EV charging stations or solar energy. But it also is there are a lot of different ways that we're going to achieve some of these good climate outcomes. Almost all of them involve jobs. And that money could completely miss our communities if we are not helping make sure that that money is directed and thought about with us at the table with folks who have a vested interest for different reasons and folks that keep equity up front.
00:39:34
Speaker
Because what often happens in government contracts is the people that are the biggest, that have the most resources might get those contracts to build it. But what would it look like if a smaller company in a local area is the one that's building the climate infrastructure? So for instance, we're working in Fresno, California, a very small community with a lot of farm workers around it.
00:39:54
Speaker
If companies from that area are building their infrastructure, they're going to hire folks from that community. They're going to not miss the needs of each of the people in the community. And so we have to design those policies from the start, how that money gets handed out so that it does have our interests right there. And I say it gets nerdy because I am a policy person.
00:40:14
Speaker
It gets really in the weeds of what we're trying to do this year is a lot of behind the scenes work. How do we write that policy so that it doesn't miss our communities? And how do we make sure our communities are in the room so they can shape how that money will get distributed?
00:40:27
Speaker
Anisha, thinking back over all of your activist experience, as well as your experience really bringing people together and leading some of those policy changes, what advice would you give to young activists and budding change makers in the next generation who are really looking to make this world a better place? What would you say to young activists today? They're the inspiration. They really are.
00:40:53
Speaker
Think that, yes, of course, I feel like an elder right now. I have a lot of advice. I'd say my number one advice would be to stay curious, to know that you don't know and get curious about everybody you meet. I think about the folks that I met over my lifetime.
00:41:08
Speaker
And I would love to go back and have different conversations with almost every single one of them. And so there's a bit of being curious, learning about people. That is one of the biggest gifts that we have. I think when we're young is the people you are about to meet can blow your mind if you let it. But I also think that I have a lot to learn from them. And I have teenagers, like I mentioned, my son is at college.
00:41:32
Speaker
They are advancing thinking faster than I can. I certainly have all the life lessons and I have some pragmatic advice. They know where the future is well before I do. And so I think they need to embrace their leadership because they're the ones we're creating for. And so
00:41:51
Speaker
I think some of the advice I'd have is, I mean, I wouldn't be where I was if I wasn't a young student activist leader. I had to get up and do that, which means that you will make mistakes. What's harder for this generation is they make mistakes in the public eye because of social media. Their mistakes get punished where mine didn't. So there's a lot more fear that they have to overcome to be a leader.
00:42:18
Speaker
But we need them desperately. And I don't have a lot of advice about overcoming that fear. You have to really be comfortable with who you are and who you are in the heart and being able to say when you make a mistake. But man, I do not envy that kind of microscope that they're under with
00:42:38
Speaker
just word choice, for instance, it's hard. That's interesting. You spoke earlier about the definition of success and how sometimes the generational perspectives are quite different in terms of what that success looks like.
Advice for New CEOs: Trust and Balance
00:42:51
Speaker
And I think, as you say, it's for young people to know what that success is to themselves and knowing their own values, as you said earlier as well, and staying curious within that space.
00:43:02
Speaker
And looking back on your time as a leader, is there any particular advice that you would give to yourself on day one of becoming a CEO? There is a trust in yourself that's necessary to do this. I was very scared of taking the CEO role because I'd seen it a lot. I liked kind of being behind the scenes. I was very comfortable with being behind the scenes. And it's kind of like
00:43:29
Speaker
Everything that goes bad at the organization is your fault. If you're a good leader, you take it, it's your fault. Everything good that happens at the organization, the credit goes elsewhere for sure because you lead a team. It's the team. Yeah. So man, it's a job that's not very glamorous and glorious often. And you have to know that going into it. And behind the scenes, I felt like I could be as fierce as I wanted to get things done.
00:43:57
Speaker
There's a different thing in leadership that by the time you are a CEO or the executive director of your organization, you can be every type of leader there is out there. You've been it. You've been that fear stick tutorial leader. You've been incredibly collaborative and consensus based. You have learned how to lead with heart. You've learned how to leave with smarts. You've learned all of it.
00:44:19
Speaker
You show up into meetings, sometimes talking 100% of the time because you need to. You've showed up in meetings where you've listened 100% of the time. We have all of those tools. For me, it's walking in a room and trusting, I'm going to choose the right leader that I already know how to be at the right moment. And sometimes I get it wrong, but often if I just stop and I check with myself first,
00:44:43
Speaker
Who needs me to be what right now? What am I showing up as? What is the guidance? And never forget, you are the leader, even when you're building a consensus-based decision, even when you're highly collaborative. You are the person in the room that everyone is taking their cues from.
00:45:00
Speaker
You've got to take the space to learn how to trust yourself. Sometimes that looks for me, just making sure I have 10 minutes in between meetings so I can refocus. Sometimes it looks like taking a whole week where I'm just thinking because it requires a lot to show up well. And I think give yourself that space, that grace. And remember, if you're having that mistrust in yourself, you need to recalibrate. You need to take some time to like trust.
00:45:25
Speaker
that you're gonna show up the way that it needs to be. And recognizing the responsibility that comes with that as well. Yeah. And it is so easy, especially as a woman of color, for the world to doubt you and tell you you're wrong. And it is so easy to listen to that voice because it's always gonna be there. Someone is always gonna be saying that to you. And that sucks. It really does suck. You have to be pretty strong to not listen to it.
00:45:49
Speaker
or to recalibrate if it comes. Yeah. And how'd you do that? For me, it is having the space and learning how to ask for what I need. And that's also something people have challenges with. I'm one of those people that has challenges asking for what I need, but it really can be just your 10 minutes of
00:46:08
Speaker
focus before a meeting, 10 minutes of summary after a meeting. One of my hacks that I think solved everything. That's very hyperbolic. It didn't solve everything. But one of the big ones is coming home at the end of the day and not making decisions. There's this real thing, decision fatigue, right? That if you've make decisions all day, there's just a maximum that you can make before it falls apart. So when I come home, I don't decide what we eat for dinner. I don't decide what we watch on TV.
00:46:35
Speaker
I try not to decide any of the other things. I will do anything. Nisha, go clean the dishes. Got it. But in terms of decision, leave those to other people. It's wonderful. It is really great. I've been with my husband for
00:46:50
Speaker
It'll be 20 years next summer. Wow. Congratulations. Yeah. So he knows me just as well as I know myself. If we go out to dinner, if I'm having one of those days where I've made a ton of decisions, I can say, can you just order for me? I don't even want to look at the menu anymore. It helps a lot. So I just wanted to give you guys that one practical tip. Avoid the decisions. Have someone else make the decisions that you don't need to make. And that really applies to leading your team too.
00:47:18
Speaker
knowing what decisions you should really just let other people on your team make. That is such important advice. Nisha, it's been such an inspiration speaking with you today. I've loved all of your stories and your passion just absolutely shines through. As we are coming to a close, what is one thing that you would like listeners to take away from this conversation? Give us one final thought or reflection. I have to think about it because I feel like I've said a lot of things.
00:47:47
Speaker
And this one that I went over quite quickly, but I think is really important. I was speaking to youth, but I think it's for all of us is to stay curious. That whatever you think when you first hear someone speak, someone who disagrees with you is to ask why they think that. What made them get to that point in that conclusion?
00:48:10
Speaker
And to really get curious more about that, because within their stories, the reason why I'm a bridge builder, you might assume, oh, she just likes to be wished. That's not why I'm a bridge builder. I have all of the stories I just shared. So when someone says, I want to stop, you know, ex policy, or they're against something you are, find out why they're deep reasons, be curious. And once you know somebody, you can't hate them. And that's really important.
00:48:38
Speaker
Because the reverse is what I fight against. I don't want people to hate me because of what I look like or being a woman or all of these other things that are right now growing, this hate. And I know if they get to know me, they can't hate me. I have to be able to do the same thing in reverse. And so being curious and getting to know people, that increases the love which we desperately need.
00:49:02
Speaker
as a world right now. Nisha Annan, thank you for being a guest on the show. It's been brilliant speaking with you. Thank you.
00:49:14
Speaker
And that's a wrap on another inspiring episode of the Charity CEO podcast. I hope you found the conversation thought-provoking and uplifting. I certainly did. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd be thrilled if you could share the joy by leaving us a review on your favourite podcast platform. Tag us on Twitter, LinkedIn or Instagram. We'd love hearing from our listeners.
00:49:34
Speaker
To stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit that subscribe button on your podcast app. And for even more resources and show details, head on over to our website, thecharityceo.com. There you'll find information on past episodes and a place to submit ideas for future guests. Thank you for listening.