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Ep 37. Bejal Shah, CEO ReachOut and Verena Hefti MBE, CEO Leaders Plus: The Power of Mentoring!
48 Plays2 years ago
“In a way what we are doing, is we’re engineering social and cultural capital for those who don’t have it… that’s what mentoring is”
In this episode we explore a new format for the show. Two charity CEOs having a panel discussion on the topic of mentoring: Bejal Shah, CEO of ReachOut and Verena Hefti, Founder and CEO of Leaders Plus.
ReachOut is a mentoring and education charity, rooted in local communities. Working in under-resourced areas across the UK, ReachOut’s programmes support young people to grow in character and confidence, sparking change in themselves and society.
Leaders Plus is a social enterprise working with individuals during maternity leave, shared parental leave and beyond, to progress in their careers whilst enjoying their young families. The Leaders Plus flagship Fellowship programme support parents to progress in big careers whilst juggling small children.
We talk about the Good, the Bad and the Ugly of mentoring, how it applies to different age-groups and how each organisation measures that all important evidence of impact.
And above all, how the experience of mentoring can have a transformational impact on an individual’s life and career trajectory.
Recorded September 2022.
Guest Biographies
Bejal Shah is the CEO of ReachOut, a mentoring charity working in under-resourced communities to support young people to grow in character and confidence to achieve positive long-term outcomes.
After leaving university, Bejal was determined to make a positive contribution to society and joined Explore Learning in 2009, forging a career in front-line education work. Following this she joined ReachOut in 2017 to head up their programmes nationwide, becoming the CEO in 2021.
Bejal is passionate about supporting young people to be the best versions of themselves, helping them develop the tools to make decisions that benefit themselves and those around them, and achieve their full potential.
Verena Hefti MBE is the CEO and Founder of the social enterprise Leaders Plus. She set up Leaders Plus in order to support leaders with babies and young children to continue to progress their careers.
Verena believes that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children. She stands for supporting parents to fulfil ambitious career dreams which she believes is essential to achieving gender equality at the top. Verena is also the host of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast.
Previous to Leaders Plus, Verena ran leadership development programmes and events for 10 years in Switzerland, Denmark, and the UK, working with various organisations, including Teach First.
Verena is from Switzerland and has MA in Social Anthropology from the University of Manchester. She was awarded the Prime Minister’s Points of Light Award and an MBE for services to working parents in 2022.
Links
https://www.reachoutuk.org/
https://www.leadersplus.org.uk/
In this episode we explore a new format for the show. Two charity CEOs having a panel discussion on the topic of mentoring: Bejal Shah, CEO of ReachOut and Verena Hefti, Founder and CEO of Leaders Plus.
ReachOut is a mentoring and education charity, rooted in local communities. Working in under-resourced areas across the UK, ReachOut’s programmes support young people to grow in character and confidence, sparking change in themselves and society.
Leaders Plus is a social enterprise working with individuals during maternity leave, shared parental leave and beyond, to progress in their careers whilst enjoying their young families. The Leaders Plus flagship Fellowship programme support parents to progress in big careers whilst juggling small children.
We talk about the Good, the Bad and the Ugly of mentoring, how it applies to different age-groups and how each organisation measures that all important evidence of impact.
And above all, how the experience of mentoring can have a transformational impact on an individual’s life and career trajectory.
Recorded September 2022.
Guest Biographies
Bejal Shah is the CEO of ReachOut, a mentoring charity working in under-resourced communities to support young people to grow in character and confidence to achieve positive long-term outcomes.
After leaving university, Bejal was determined to make a positive contribution to society and joined Explore Learning in 2009, forging a career in front-line education work. Following this she joined ReachOut in 2017 to head up their programmes nationwide, becoming the CEO in 2021.
Bejal is passionate about supporting young people to be the best versions of themselves, helping them develop the tools to make decisions that benefit themselves and those around them, and achieve their full potential.
Verena Hefti MBE is the CEO and Founder of the social enterprise Leaders Plus. She set up Leaders Plus in order to support leaders with babies and young children to continue to progress their careers.
Verena believes that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children. She stands for supporting parents to fulfil ambitious career dreams which she believes is essential to achieving gender equality at the top. Verena is also the host of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast.
Previous to Leaders Plus, Verena ran leadership development programmes and events for 10 years in Switzerland, Denmark, and the UK, working with various organisations, including Teach First.
Verena is from Switzerland and has MA in Social Anthropology from the University of Manchester. She was awarded the Prime Minister’s Points of Light Award and an MBE for services to working parents in 2022.
Links
https://www.reachoutuk.org/
https://www.leadersplus.org.uk/
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Transcript
Introduction to Engineering Social Capital
00:00:00
Speaker
In a way, what we're doing is we're engineering social and cultural capital for people who don't have it. Mentoring is exactly, you're putting someone in touch with a person and get that individual, for example, Divya, to invest in someone who usually doesn't have that senior, amazing, inspirational person with this background in their lives. I think that's where the magic happens.
00:00:25
Speaker
That's very, very true, actually. I think when we think about the young people that we work with, often there are lots of role models in their lives. They've got parents or guardians, there's others in their communities, but we always talk about additional role models. So somebody else who's also potentially been there and done it when it comes to either careers that they're thinking about or just the types of lives that maybe the young people want to aspire to.
Season 4 Launch and Host Introduction
00:00:49
Speaker
They have the aspirations, but actually it's just, how do I get there?
00:01:01
Speaker
Welcome to season four of the Charity CEO podcast, the podcast for charity leaders by charity leaders, bringing you inspirational and meaningful conversations with leaders who are driving change in the nonprofit space. I'm truly delighted and humbled that the show has been named in the Charity Times top 10 charity podcasts for 2022. Thank you all for that incredible endorsement. I'm Divya O'Connor, and here's the show.
Meet the CEOs: Bijal Shah and Verena Hefty
00:01:30
Speaker
In this episode, we are exploring another new format for the show. I have invited two charity CEOs to have a conversation on the power of mentoring, Bijal Shah, CEO of ReachOut, and Verena Hefty, founder and CEO of Leaders Plus. Both organizations offer mentoring programs, and I explore with Verena different facets of mentoring, how it applies to different age groups, and how they measure that all-important evidence of impact.
00:01:56
Speaker
I truly believe that the timely intervention of support, knowledge and motivation can help change the trajectory of a person's life, and this is particularly important for young people today. I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
00:02:11
Speaker
Well, hi, Michelle, and hi, Varina. Welcome, and thank you for joining us on the Charity CEO podcast. Thanks so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for having us. Well, my pleasure. And as we are now in season four of the podcast, I thought I would start to explore some new formats. And this is the first time I've had the pleasure and the privilege of having two CEOs from different charities on at the same time. So really trying to bring a more panel discussion style conversation
00:02:38
Speaker
to this particular topic, and today's topic is mentoring.
First Jobs and Professional Strengths
00:02:42
Speaker
But first, our icebreaker, and as there are two of you, I'm going to go with three questions each. Are you ready? Sounds good. Sounds good. Excellent. Vigelle, would you like to go first? Sure.
00:02:54
Speaker
So question one, what was your first job? My first job, so my first ever job was in a clothes store. But my first job, let's say, let's call it my first sort of proper adult job after finishing education was with a company called Explore Learning running education centers for young people.
00:03:13
Speaker
Ah, and Varina? Mine was doing the early morning shift in a restaurant, serving lots of coffee and breakfast to elderly people. How lovely. And question two, what would you say is your professional superpower? I would say it is listening. Very important skill, Varina. You know, you asked me this question in preparation, but badly so. I generally could not come up with an answer, so I'm going to have to pass on that one.
00:03:43
Speaker
Perhaps they ask it differently. What would you say is your sort of top strength? Well, I think I'm quite radical. Sometimes that's a strength, sometimes that's a weakness, but yeah, actually that is probably a superpower. Yeah, of course it is. Radical superpower. And our final icebreaker question. If you had the opportunity to interview anyone in the world, dead or alive, who would it be and what one question would you like to ask them?
Inspirational Figures: Interview Aspirations
00:04:08
Speaker
So I think my person is still around, not somebody I know unfortunately, but the author and activist Arundhati Roy. Oh yes, god of small things. Yeah, to think of one question to ask would be really hard, but I definitely want to know about how she is able to be so unyielding.
00:04:29
Speaker
think and unshakable in what she does and her attitudes to society.
00:04:47
Speaker
asking you. So if ever you change your mind, then I'm here to interview you. And for those of you who don't know, Armenia, she is a researcher that researches why some people progress their careers and others don't. And I just feel that is such an interesting thing. I really want to unlock why is it that there's so many white male middle class people in CEO jobs and not enough people
00:05:10
Speaker
who don't look like that. And I've read all her books, I'm a super groupie of hers, so I really want to speak to her. But she's very good. She writes about time management. And I think she says no to a lot of things, sadly, including my podcast, but I'm still working on it. I'll keep sending her emails. And I'm sure at some point in her life, she will say yes.
00:05:27
Speaker
That is fascinating. Please do let me know if you do manage to interview her. I'd love to listen. And Verena, you and I were just talking before we came in the call about the CEO body or the hashtag CEO body that is currently trending on social media. So I think it's really critical question really to talk about in the leadership context of who can be a leader and what are the stereotypes around leadership and what a leader looks like.
Origin of Mentorship: Greek Mythology
00:05:50
Speaker
So we are here, ladies, to talk about mentoring, which I know is at the heart of both of your organisations. Bijail, you are the CEO of Reach Out, and Vereena, you are the founder and CEO of Leaders Plus. And I don't know if you ladies know this, but I was reading that the origin of the term mentor actually comes from Greek mythology. And the story goes that King Odysseus went to fight the Trojan War and he left his son and heir, Telemachus.
00:06:19
Speaker
under the care of a guardian called Mentor. And this individual, however, did not have the prince's best interests at heart, so it was Goddess Athena who stepped in and she disguised herself to look like Mentor, and she was the one who then guided Telemachus to victory. The Goddess Athena is of course the goddess of wisdom, handicraft and warfare, and I think there are clear parallels with sort of her representation and the role of a mentor today.
00:06:44
Speaker
So I wanted to really start off by asking you both to tell us about your organisations and the mentoring programmes that you offer. Marina, why don't you go first? That's so interesting. I love that explanation of where it comes from.
00:06:59
Speaker
So I run Leaders Plus and as you will have gathered from my mention of Armenia Barra, I'm super passionate about equal career progression. I believe that our leadership world needs to look differently and I am a bit annoyed that so many people who have young children, especially mothers who take time out tend to get stuck in that middle leadership level and we need to change this.
Leaders Plus Mentoring Program Overview
00:07:21
Speaker
Hence, we run a nine month
00:07:23
Speaker
fellowship programme which is designed to help people progress their careers and have children in tow and have lived those full lives.
00:07:31
Speaker
So I guess mentoring is interesting. I'm going to be very honest. So mentoring was from the very start a part of our program and a very well-loved part of our program. We do lots of other things. We have small group discussions. We bring in line managers. We bring in life partners, husband's wife. But the reason initially why we brought in mentoring was because of people really wanting that.
00:07:56
Speaker
And I was a bit ambivalent at first, I have to say, because I'm a bit of a research geek, so I read up on the research around it. And there's quite a bit of research that mentoring if done badly, like you discovered with your story from Odysseus, actually mentoring if done badly or with bad intention can have a really bad impact. So I think I went in with that, if we do mentoring, we need to get it right.
00:08:17
Speaker
And also, there are a lot of programs that evaluate mentoring, mainly for young people. And some make a big impact and some actually don't make an impact. So from the very start, I always thought about how do we avoid bad or no impact mentoring? And how do we accelerate the chance of high impact mentoring? Excellent, thank you. I'd really love to come back on this topic of evaluation and impact in a moment. But Bijael, tell us about ReachOut.
ReachOut's Mentoring Impact
00:08:42
Speaker
Absolutely. So we are an organization that supports young people.
00:08:46
Speaker
through mentoring. We work in sort of underserved, under-resourced communities across the UK, and we do our work in conjunction with schools. So schools will refer young people to our programme. Those who they feel are in need of that support through mentoring the most. What's really unique, I guess, about what we do is that it is providing that one-to-one support for young people.
00:09:07
Speaker
with trusted adults but also creating really crucial group dynamics as well and that group element so that young people have that peer support.
00:09:17
Speaker
seeing lots of other adults around them as well that can all in effect be mentors to them and they're building that trust in authority and in adults and that sense of belonging community which often we sort of see in a lot of the communities we're working in they're struggling to find maybe at school necessarily so it's support from trusted adults who can you know you talked earlier about sort of provide that wisdom that guidance but it's about helping really with decision making a lot of the time so providing those tools those skills to make
00:09:47
Speaker
the best decisions for themselves, for those around them. We talk a lot about character development, so helping young people to build those skills. I don't love the phrase soft skills, but I think it's actually the really crucial skills that young people need to be able to make those informed decisions, to be able to think about life during school, beyond school, and
00:10:09
Speaker
just get that support that they need whilst they're in those environments and to be able to think long term about what they might want to do, how they might want to go down the pathways that are right for them to sort of achieve their full potential.
00:10:21
Speaker
Thank you, Bijal. So I am interestingly about to take up an interim CO appointment at a charity called the Girls Network, which also offers mentoring programmes, but specifically for young girls aged 14 to 19 from disadvantaged areas. So the programme works via the schools. It sounds quite similar to your model and connecting the young girls up with a professional woman with a view to inspire and open their eyes to future possibilities.
00:10:47
Speaker
and Verena, I'm very pleased to have joined your fellowship program as a senior leader mentor earlier this year.
Benefits and Evaluation of Mentoring Programs
00:10:54
Speaker
So I know from my own personal experience and from a vast body of research that there was a lot of anecdotal evidence around the benefits of such programs and the benefits of mentoring when it's done well. And Verena, to your point, I'd really like to understand more about what has been the impact of your mentoring programs and how do you actually measure this impact in your organizations?
00:11:16
Speaker
There are structured evaluation questionnaires beginning of the program at the end, but we look at whether or not people have progress on the indicators that we're working to. So have they become more confident in combining careers and family life? Have they been confident in speaking up? Has the mentor shown them new ways of thinking and so on and so forth? But I think the interesting question that we try to unpick is what exactly is the difference the mentor is making? And that is a much harder
00:11:43
Speaker
question because we're thinking how can we replicate that elsewhere and I think it seems to be one someone who's generally invested in you and that's why the relationship is so important so we ask there seems to be strong evidence that if you have a strong relationship you're much more likely to have a big impact in your mentoring relationship.
00:12:02
Speaker
are people genuinely invested does the mentee feel that the mentor really is there for them rather than there to sit there and give good advice and feel good about themselves and I think those are the real questions that we need to adapt and so with our program I'm sure you do something similar Bijal we really encourage people to
00:12:20
Speaker
commit to each other and you've experienced that, it's almost like, you know, saying, yes, I do want to invest in this relationship, but then also if it doesn't work, to be very proactive and say, actually, something jars here and I'm a real, I love mentoring, so I always get people to mentor me and I've learned the hard way that I know very quickly and you know very quickly in your gut whether this relationship is going to make a difference or not. And just to make a decision there and then, whether or not you want to continue is quite important.
00:12:49
Speaker
when it comes to evaluating
Mutual Benefits of Mentoring
00:12:51
Speaker
our program. So we try to get that input from as many of the sort of stakeholders involved. So there's the young people themselves who we ask about changes that they've seen, and that's in specific areas. So I talked before about character development.
00:13:07
Speaker
We talk about improvements in confidence, social confidence, academic confidence, asking them about changes that they've seen in those areas. And then have they enjoyed having a mentor as well? And has that mentor helped them to see what life in secondary school might be like, life beyond school might be like? So through those really key transition points as well is very important. And I have to say, I think when it comes to impact measurement,
00:13:35
Speaker
it is very difficult because actually really trying to gather the impact on things that are often quite intangible. How do you really show that this young person has actually completely transformed a lot of the time? But a lot of it is in ways that you can't quite grasp, you can't quite put into a fact or a figure. And the other side of it, I would say, is that there's huge impact that we see on our mentors.
00:14:02
Speaker
So all of our mentors and volunteers, so you know you talked Farina about that commitment, that commitment that's required is so so important and we really drum that in about committing, how crucial that is, how detrimental it can be actually if you're not committing.
00:14:17
Speaker
through having built that trust with a young person and then potentially breaking that trust by not showing up for them. But when it works and we see the impact that we have on the mentors, they also show tremendous transformation. They talk to us about how actually if they're working professionals, their working professional lives have changed and improved.
00:14:38
Speaker
Some of them have made entire career changes because of it. They talk about improvements in their leadership skills, their communication skills. So it really is that primary benefit to the young people and the beneficiaries, the primary beneficiaries, but also that secondary benefit to all those around them, families of the young people, the people they surround themselves with, the mentors, which is actually really interesting to look into. I think it's so interesting what you're talking about with these relationships, because isn't it
00:15:06
Speaker
In a way, what we're doing is we're engineering social and cultural capital for people who don't have it. Mentoring is exactly, you're putting someone in touch with a person and get that individual, for example, Divya, to invest in someone who usually doesn't have that senior, amazing, inspirational person with this background in their lives. I think that's where the magic happens.
00:15:31
Speaker
That's very, very true, actually. I think when we think about the young people that we work with, often there are lots of role models in their lives. They've got parents or guardians, there's others in their communities, but we always talk about additional role models. So somebody else who's also potentially been there and done it when it comes to either careers that they're thinking about or just the types of lives that maybe the young people want to aspire to. They have the aspirations, but actually it's just, how do I get there? And
00:15:59
Speaker
That's really important that it's others who've, as I said, have been there and done it. I love that definition that you gave in terms of mentoring being about engineering, social and cultural capital. I think that absolutely hits the nail on the head. And in that light, I was just going to ask if you have any anecdotes or stories that you could share where you've seen this really come to life.
00:16:23
Speaker
one person who comes to mind, I can't name any names obviously, but she was a senior nurse in a hospital. Obviously she was brilliant at what she did based on her patient's feedback, her colleagues' feedback, but she just didn't dare putting herself forward for things and she wasn't sure about it. And then we paired her with this very experienced mentor. By coincidence, it was someone who chaired a hospital
00:16:45
Speaker
trust before so very senior person and somehow that person really that mental really made her think differently and challenge her assumptions about what she was capable of and just by having this
Case Study: Transformative Mentoring
00:16:58
Speaker
seen a person believe in her and nudge her on, she then went on to a much more senior role. She ended up leading a whole team and department and the fascinating thing is I only noticed that at the end. So all this magic happens, you know, like, I'm sure you find this as well, visually, just pair people up.
00:17:15
Speaker
continue to obviously provide an information and support, but sometimes you don't think of them all the time, as in that particular pairing. And then they come back and say, oh, by the way, it's been life changing. And that's quite nice, I think. Brilliant. Absolutely. For us at ReachOut, it's really interesting because we work with young people as young as nine.
00:17:34
Speaker
So often as much as they try to can't always articulate fully the benefits maybe that it's having but actually we speak to what we speak to them and we do hear what they tell us we speak to their teachers their parents and just seeing changes like a young person actually spending more time in class rather than being sent out of a class.
00:17:55
Speaker
you know, not having to miss break times because of misbehaving and actually getting all of that benefit that we hope for them to get in school is huge. That's such a big thing as they think then about transitioning into secondary school and beyond. And then we've got young people, I think of some of our young people who have been, we've worked within secondary schools, but we've worked with them for five years almost on the trot with sometimes the same mentors.
00:18:21
Speaker
So that long-term support over years through those really key points in adolescence has been absolutely incredible because they're being supported through their teenage years just with all the things that teenagers go through, but also to be able to feel more confident in taking exams, in asking questions in the classroom, in supporting them with friendships that they have as well that maybe they're finding tricky, even relationships with their own family as well, siblings.
00:18:50
Speaker
And then we hear now from young people in their early 20s, who we still stay in touch with, past alumni of the programme, who come back and say to us, if it wasn't for Reach Out, I don't think I would be where I am now. And whether that's really thinking about success in whatever that means for them. So many who have gone on to find the jobs that they've really wanted to do, have gone on to start their own businesses, who have been able to support the people around them in the way they wanted to,
00:19:17
Speaker
really incredible case studies that we have of people who really do attribute quite a lot of the things that have happened in a positive way to them to mentoring and that might be one mentor for a very long time for multiple people that have helped them.
Community and Alumni Engagement
00:19:31
Speaker
Michelle, how do you stay engaged with the Alumni Network, as you called it? So we have a couple of different ways. I think one thing that just has always been the case at ReachOut is there is this real sort of community feel. So actually, one thing that I hope we never lose as we grow is this culture of people feeling like they can talk to any one of us, whether it's me or a project leader or a volunteer who are us or sessional people.
00:19:59
Speaker
or a member of our fundraising team. We have that sort of culture where everybody knows everybody and they can come in and talk to us about something that they want support with. That's always been there, but now we're trying to formalize that. So we have sort of an alumni network, we have just set up
00:20:15
Speaker
an online platform as well for them to all become part of and be able to sort of support each other as well, be connected with each other if you've got sort of a young person maybe who's 25 wanting to give that support to an 18 year old they can now. And that's really exciting. So it's something that's in development.
00:20:35
Speaker
And Verena, I know that you also focus on trying to keep former participants of the fellowship programme engaged as well as former mentors. Do you have any sort of more formalised channels and structures through which you do this? So some of it happens, like Bijal says, automatically because people build a relationship and therefore they stay in touch.
00:20:55
Speaker
we're currently experimenting with offering additional events after. So we're actually just in a couple of weeks time, we have a mentoring and alumni event where we bring together alumni and mentors to reconnect and just help each other solve problems. And I think that's really lovely. And personally, I'm really looking forward to this. But just to say, your program sounds amazing. And if ever you want to recruit more mentors, I'm sure that
00:21:21
Speaker
Leeds Plus fellows would love to help and contribute so I think it feels like we need to chat after this and thank you so much for bringing us together. Absolutely, it's the charity CEO matchmaking service. It's so brilliant to hear about other organisations and we know a lot of mentoring organisations within the sort of youth sector space but actually to hear about groups where there's actually adults or putting other adults
00:21:47
Speaker
is really, really brilliant. And I can imagine, Marina, you've got lots of people within your network who would be amazing mentors to young people. So yeah, absolutely, we'll connect. Great. Yeah, brilliant.
Tailored Mentoring for Different Demographics
00:21:58
Speaker
That was one of the reasons I wanted to bring you both together, actually, in this panel, because I was conscious that your organizations focus on quite distinct demographics in terms of your mentoring offer, which I thought was really interesting.
00:22:11
Speaker
And talking more about mentoring itself as a concept, I wanted to ask whether there are any trends in the mentoring space that you see that might influence things going forward in the future. I think a lot of young people that we work with have their teachers, they have the sort of professionals around them that can support their mental health and wellbeing, but often just having somebody to talk to about their lives.
00:22:36
Speaker
who's not a parent, who's not a teacher, who's somebody completely objective has, I think especially over the last couple of years and given everything that we've all gone through and that young people in particular have gone through, has been a real benefit and it's something that we see when we ask young people about why is it that you've enjoyed working with your mentor so much or what's been the benefit to you. A lot of them are talking about
00:22:58
Speaker
they support me with my wellbeing, they let me talk to them about whatever I'm feeling, they're not judgmental, and that's been really interesting. Interesting. Vivina? Yeah, I agree with what you said there. I think the other thing I'm seeing, I don't know if it's a trend or if it's always been this, seems that there is more and more paid for mentoring.
Paid Mentoring: Investment and Evaluation
00:23:20
Speaker
Organizations that are charities or social enterprises, but
00:23:23
Speaker
who don't recruit volunteer mentors but who are actually getting mentors that they're paying. I think that's just a reflection of understanding of how much you need to invest to select the right people as volunteers, to train them, to review whether the process is going well and so on and so forth.
00:23:41
Speaker
So I think mentoring has been professionalised a little bit or is in the process of being professionalised. That's really interesting to hear. One of the things I was wondering about is the format or the structure of the interaction. So pre-pandemic they were more likely to be in person, it's face-to-face obviously through Covid
Pandemic Shift to Online Mentoring
00:24:03
Speaker
and the pandemic.
00:24:03
Speaker
we are seeing more and more the interactions happen online. I know the Girls Network, for example, is currently piloting an online mentoring program. I wanted to get the sense from both of you in terms of whether you've seen a big impact from that shift of moving away from perhaps more face-to-face to online interaction. How has that affected the take-up of the programs or how has it affected the quality from your data perspective?
00:24:33
Speaker
For us, in our work, we, before the pandemic, only ever carried out our work in person. So it was physically in schools, on the school site, working, being there in front of the young people, and of course that all had to stop when the schools closed. So we very quickly developed a way of doing what we do online. We were skeptical, just like everybody else, not being used to that sort of online way of working.
00:24:57
Speaker
and that remote contact. But actually, I think it was a surprise to everybody involved that it actually was very successful. And it's been very interesting since, because now we're back to doing most of our work face to face. I mean, what it means for us as an organisation is we now have that extra arm of what we do where we can deliver an online service, where perhaps we can't reach the young people physically. So it's a lot of benefit in that sense.
00:25:23
Speaker
But what we did see when we've been delivering work online is that actually the young people and their mentors reported that for the young people in particular, they didn't have the distractions around them of their peers. Often that led to much more in-depth and transparent conversations. So that was really interesting. And so when I talk about that support that they had for their wellbeing, their mental health over the last two years, I think that those two sort of really went hand in hand.
00:25:51
Speaker
And I think going forward, there's a real opportunity to look at how both in-person and online methods can be used. Yeah, the fascinating thing for me was that the quality stayed the same and in fact, even marginally increased by a couple of percentage points already from a high starting point. The interesting thing is that it's very personal.
00:26:14
Speaker
There are some people who wanted to go back to face to face mentoring, but many of them have stayed online since the pandemic. And in terms of quality, we haven't seen a difference, but we've seen a difference in terms of how it was done. So there's probably a bit more interaction going on between mentor meetings now as a result of it being online, because people expect there to be more online conversation.
00:26:37
Speaker
That's really interesting. I was just going to add that it definitely does depend on the people involved. And of course, when we're thinking about which young people, types of young people, young people with different needs, who can we work with online and who can we work with in person?
00:26:53
Speaker
We do have to think about that very carefully because, of course, we saw through peak pandemic times that, you know, young people were joining, mentoring conversations, but actually wouldn't keep their camera on, wouldn't even keep the mics on, and just getting past those hurdles were hard enough. If self-esteem and confidence and all those things are an issue and are something to be focused on, then, of course, we do have to think about whether that's the right thing to do something like that online, but it does very much depend on the needs, so that does have to be considered.
00:27:22
Speaker
That's really interesting, Bijal, and I think it leads quite nicely to my next question because I'm conscious that we've talked a lot about the benefits of mentoring and I wanted to ask what are some of the challenges or issues that such a program faces?
Challenges in Effective Mentoring
00:27:37
Speaker
I think the most important thing is not to think about it with vanity. I would say vanity is the biggest challenge for such a program. Mentors might have no offense to anyone, but mentors might have the vanity of, oh, I've been selected to give advice, therefore let me give some advice, even if that's not what the individual needs.
00:27:57
Speaker
could be the vanity of the organization saying, we have got this amazing mentoring program. It's very easy. Everyone likes a mentoring program. It's very easy to get people to like a mentoring program. But actually, being rigorous about the evaluation is super essential. And we found some things that actually are making our lives a little bit harder. So for example, we found that our
00:28:18
Speaker
repeat mentors seem to have a higher impact than the new ones initially. So that means we need to do more and we need to find mentors who are able to commit year after year after year.
00:28:28
Speaker
which many of them do, but then some of them want to do it every third year because they like to keep their relationship going for longer and so on. So really being led by the impact and not by your own vanity of having this amazing mentoring programme is quite important. And then just also your own vanity. So sometimes if you're a mentee, you might not want to share what's really going on and you might want to just say things that impress the mentor that you think the mentor wants to hear.
00:28:51
Speaker
But we really need to cut through that. When we do the introduction to our mentoring programme, we're very clear with our fellows that you need to talk to your mentor about the things that are keeping you awake at night, obviously within the sphere of the mentoring programme. I think that brutal honesty has worked quite well. Fascinating.
00:29:13
Speaker
really interesting. I think Varini touched on some really key things there. I think just that thinking about vanity is so important and if I think about any of the sort of challenges that we've faced
00:29:27
Speaker
We talk to our mentors about taking a very non-judgmental approach, meeting young people where they are, understanding the backgrounds of the young people, where they're coming from in every way, and not making any assumptions about those things, as well being very open, which, even with the best intentions,
00:29:48
Speaker
it is a struggle for people. So I think having that total sort of non-bias, it's something that's quite hard to train for. When we're training our volunteers and our mentors, we talk about that a lot, but I think it takes experience as well. And then back to your point, Varina, about
00:30:06
Speaker
retaining mentors, retaining those really brilliant people who are going to keep supporting year on year is hard because it's a big commitment you're asking for. And that commitment is so crucial to those mentoring relationships. So I think all of those things are really key. Yes, Verina, you mentioned earlier in the conversation that you have worked with many mentors, and Bishal, I believe that you also have a mentor
00:30:29
Speaker
I'd like to hear from you your personal experiences in terms of how has having a mentor helped you in your personal journeys and your careers.
Personal Mentoring Experiences
00:30:37
Speaker
And Verena, do also share if you've had experiences where perhaps the mentor relationship hasn't gone as expected.
00:30:44
Speaker
So I will tell you the good, bad and the ugly. And I think the ugly. So I recently was part of a program supporting me to grow the social enterprise. And it was fascinating because I did exactly what I wasn't supposed to do. So it was quite interesting. I was out of my comfort zone because it wasn't a social entrepreneurs program. So everyone else was mainly white
00:31:09
Speaker
elderly males who spoke slightly different language from me and anyway so I got matched with this mentor who seemed to be very knowledgeable but he was just really not useful and he just kept telling me the same things that I really didn't need to hear and I think for me that's what I mentioned before I made a mistake of staying with this mentor too long
00:31:29
Speaker
It was just such a waste of time and every time afterwards I spoke to my partner at the end and said this was so not useful I wish I had a different mentor but I didn't do anything about it because I thought well maybe it's me and actually it wasn't me it was just that that relationship didn't work out and I'm sure this person is a wonderful mentor for someone else
00:31:46
Speaker
But I should have quicker decided that this didn't work. And then on the other hand, I had a really exceptional mentor called Belinda Bell, who ran the Cambridge University Social Ventures program. And she was my mentor there. And the reason why she was so exceptional is because she gave me very brutal truths.
00:32:05
Speaker
And they were really, really brutal. So at the beginning, I never liked to charge for anything that I put on. It's just not in my spirit. So I would like to put everything on for free and then somehow get it funded through magic. And she very helpfully pointed out that that is not going to work. And if I just put something on for free, it is never a real test of if it's going to work or not, because of course, everyone is going to do something that is for free.
00:32:29
Speaker
So that was very, very tough to hear. And maybe now I sounded out loud. It doesn't sound tough, but at the time that was very tough feedback for me to have. And I had to go back to the drawing board and actually price things up properly and look at the finance side of things. But without that tough feedback, I wouldn't have started Leaders Plus. And there are countless examples of where she's given me some really tough love that have changed my ways of doing things and have still got an impact now two or three years on. My third example is really just about
00:32:59
Speaker
having a lot of one-off mentoring conversations, so I'm quite good at if I have a specific problem, I will seek someone out who I know who has expertise around that, and I'll just ask them if I can get their insights, and I have so many useful conversations about practical challenge or issues that I was grappling with.
00:33:17
Speaker
where I was lucky enough to get the insights of other people and just get the insights. You don't have to implement what they're saying. Just get inside, download it as it were, and then pick what works for you. Thank you, Verena. That's so fascinating. One thing that you said there has really struck me in terms of the responsibility or accountability for a mentoring relationship if it's not going as expected.
00:33:42
Speaker
Béjèle, I'd be interested to hear your views on this because particularly in the context of young people where they may not actually feel empowered to say, okay, I don't think this is really working for me. What does the organisation do in that situation? And how do you actually empower that young person to feel comfortable and to feel that their voice can be heard?
Facilitating Effective Mentoring
00:34:03
Speaker
That's such a crucial point, I think, that understanding of the relationship. Is it going well? Is it not? When we set up our mentoring relationships,
00:34:11
Speaker
It's not just a case of saying, right, you two, you're working together now, off you go. The really nice thing about the sort of group element of our work is that the young people can essentially look around at the adults in the room and think, right, who do I click with? Who am I going to enjoy working with? Who do I feel a sense of relatability with? They can actually tell us their preferences. The mentors can do the same. And then we use that information to actually pair mentors and mentees.
00:34:39
Speaker
Which is a really nice way of doing it because you're sort of involving both parties there. We give them all time to actually be around each other a little bit, lots of icebreaker activities, lots of games and things so that we can see how they're all relating to each other and they can see for themselves as well. If then after that we set up pairs and they don't work out for any reason,
00:35:01
Speaker
It is really instilled on both sides with the mentors and the young people to say, how is it going? Is it working? Is it not working? And to be able to come to the other adults who are leading the sessions to say that. I think what's really improved for us over the last couple of years is that youth voice and youth participation. So young people get to provide feedback. They know that they'll have their voices heard if they have some feedback as well.
00:35:28
Speaker
So I think that's really positive and something that we definitely Will be keeping up because it is so important that if it's not working on either side It can be said and something done about it and there's always something that can be done about it
00:35:41
Speaker
Excellent. And Virgil, your own experience of working with a mentor, do you have anything to share on that? Yeah, absolutely. So most recently, and the regular mentor that I've had most recently has been a really interesting experience because I would say actually just like Varina was saying, there is that sort of helping you face up maybe to some harsh truths, asking those challenging questions that maybe you're not asking yourself.
00:36:08
Speaker
or you're asking yourself but you're not being truthful enough with yourself, with your own responses. So I think almost somebody who is forcing you to sort of face up to some harsh realities, I've really found that to be quite useful professionally and personally. And then I've also found that those one-off mentoring conversations have also been really of benefit to me.
00:36:29
Speaker
For me specifically, in coming into this role quite new as a CEO of a charity, I've had some really brilliant conversations with others in a similar position, but with that little bit more experience. Who can answer some questions for me where I'm thinking, I feel like I should know this, but I don't yet. Or you've probably seen and done this before. So actually, can you tell me about your experience? That's been so beneficial for me. So I've had some really positive experiences in the last sort of two years or so.
00:36:57
Speaker
Are there any tips or advice you would give to people who are either looking for a mentor or seeking to become one? And do also share to anybody who might be listening to this podcast if somebody wants to get involved with your mentoring programs how they might do that. So in our case, you can go to lizbarce.org.uk and you can apply to become a mentor there. You also can apply to become a fellow B mentor.
00:37:20
Speaker
And I think tips to find a mentor is you can just ask people for one-off conversation for advice on a topic that you're passionate about. So assuming you want to find a mentor outside of a mentoring program. And then once you've had that one-off conversation, and if you feel inspired by this person, you feel that person can add to it, then ask for a few more. I would say always give it a time of commitment. Say, could you mentor me once a month over six months? And you're much more likely to get a yes if you are
00:37:49
Speaker
asking with a time commitment in mind. Thank you. And Vigail? So for anybody interested in volunteering and mentoring with ReachOut, there's two main ways. So there's supporting our younger young people who are in school, which you can do through signing up at our website. And then there is career mentoring. We also have a lot of working professionals get involved in to support our older young people.
00:38:14
Speaker
who are in the very early stages, let's say, of finishing education, getting into the world of work that you're able to support on a less frequent basis as well. So that's all through our website and there's a very easy sign-up form there. In terms of tips, I guess, well, Vereena's given tips for mentees
Commitment and Expertise in Mentoring
00:38:32
Speaker
there. So maybe if I think about tips for mentors, I would say definitely make sure that it is something you can commit to because it is very important that that is maintained.
00:38:44
Speaker
And I think the other thing I would say, because we do get a lot of people coming to us saying, oh, I can't be a mentor. What do I have to offer? And actually, everybody does have something to offer. And if I think about the best mentors would be often some of the young people that we work with now who I would love to see in 10, 20 years becoming mentors to the next generation. They've had that mentoring experience. They've been there and done it when it comes to sort of being part of those communities that maybe those same young people come from. So
00:39:14
Speaker
That's what I would love to see, is that sort of full circle. And talking about pathways and full circle, I'm always curious to hear how different people got to where they are right now in their careers and professions.
Paths to Leadership and Fighting Inequality
00:39:26
Speaker
So, Vrina, Virjal, tell us more about your personal leadership journeys and what has led you to where you are today. I've always was passionate about inequality and
00:39:36
Speaker
I always had a dream of starting one day my own organization, but I never thought I would do it as cheesy as that sounds. I'm from Switzerland originally, I then moved to the UK for my partner, very, you know, not in line with the Leaders Plus mission. And I ended up, I had to find a job.
00:39:54
Speaker
near where he left, and so I worked for the CWDC, which is a public sector quango, and I very quickly realised that I didn't want to be constrained by that, so very quickly moved to the charity sector and became eventually a director at the charity teach first, which is why, Pjall, I really respect your work and yours, to be with the Girls Network, really fun to support what you do.
00:40:15
Speaker
Yeah. And then I had my own baby and I realised, actually, there's a massive issue with gender equality in senior roles and decided to start Dijus Plus. Very short summary of how I got there. Thank you. It's a fascinating journey and visual. So my journey, essentially, I think I always knew that working with young people was for me. But if I think about my background, that definitely wasn't something that was encouraged.
00:40:41
Speaker
being sort of, you know, immigrant parents and seeing others around me that were potentially going to lots of other fields, definitely not in education or the charity sector. That sort of status never really given to those areas, unfortunately. But I just knew that supporting young people is what I wanted to do. Went to university, studied chemical engineering of all things. Don't ask me why.
00:41:04
Speaker
But luckily found a job with Explore Learning when I came out of university. I built lots and lots of skills in leadership actually as well as everything around supporting young people and working with families of young people as well and did that for a very long time actually before making a move into the charity sector.
00:41:24
Speaker
and I haven't looked back since. I'm so pleased that in five years of being part of ReachOut, I've moved from leading delivery to now the chief exec of the organisation. And I love the organisation, I love what I do, so as much as it's challenging in this role, the pros definitely outweigh the challenges.
00:41:44
Speaker
Well, I love the common thread in both of your stories, which is that you've both been led by a passion. So a visual for you was about supporting young people and Marina for you was all around social injustice and finding ways to fight inequality. And if you were to look back on your leadership journey for when you were first starting out, what advice would you give to yourself looking back now that you wish you had known on day one of taking up a leadership role?
00:42:11
Speaker
That's a very good question because I think if anybody had asked me even a couple of years ago, are you going to be the chief exec of a charity? The answer was absolutely not. So I think advice would be as cheesy as it sounds is believe in yourself and listen to those people who are saying actually you can do it and you've got the skills and you've got the knowledge and you've got
00:42:38
Speaker
the traits that make a good leader and I think also for me it was definitely that not necessarily seeing those that maybe looked like me in these positions and to sort of overcome that barrier if you like has probably been the hardest and I think hopefully that's changing but I think there's a long way to go.
00:42:59
Speaker
Yes, representation is so important across our sector and across all roles and sectors. Verena? For me, I would have loved to know the big impact that delegating properly and as part of that actually letting go and letting people get on with the stuff that you're delegating them to, that impact that can make on your own work life and on your ability to think strategically, which is what is so important in leadership.
00:43:28
Speaker
Absolutely, I completely agree with that. And in closing now, I mean, this has been such an enjoyable conversation. Thank you both. Do you have any final thoughts or reflections that you would like to share? I mean, what is one thing you would like listeners to take away from this conversation?
00:43:44
Speaker
I'm sure anyone listening will do this already, but don't do something for the vanity of it. Really start with the impact in mind and visual.
Conclusion: Full-Circle Mentoring Culture
00:43:53
Speaker
How do I beat that? I think I'll go back to something I mentioned earlier, which is that most people have something to offer in terms of mentoring somebody else.
00:44:05
Speaker
a skill, a strength, everybody does. And if you can identify that, then you can become a fantastic mentor to somebody. And like I said before, that's what I really hope that all of our young people see in themselves to eventually go that full circle and be a great mentor to somebody else.
00:44:22
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Michelle and Verena. This has been such an enjoyable conversation and I hope you enjoyed the panel format, which is new to the CharityCO podcast as well. Thank you for being guests on the show. Thank you so much. Thank you. It has been an absolute pleasure.
00:44:38
Speaker
I believe representation in leadership is absolutely vital. As Bijal alluded to at the end there, you sometimes cannot be what you cannot see. Mentoring can help change that. As Varina said earlier in the conversation, mentoring is in essence the engineering of social and cultural capital for those who don't have it.
00:44:57
Speaker
It is through the power of mentoring that young people, women or anyone from a disadvantaged background can begin to see possibilities and brighter paths ahead, which helps create a more equitable and prosperous society for us all.
00:45:11
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed this latest episode of the Charity CEO podcast. A show that, thanks to you, our listeners, has repeatedly reached the number one spot in Apple's nonprofit podcast category. If you found this conversation valuable, please share or tag us on Twitter or LinkedIn or Instagram, and make sure you subscribe to the show by clicking the subscribe button on your podcast app.
00:45:34
Speaker
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