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Ep 53. Adela Raz, Former Ambassador of Afghanistan to the U.S. & U.N. - Keeping hope alive for Afghan women and girls
322 Plays6 days ago
In August 2021, the Taliban swept back into power in Afghanistan after nearly 20 years, toppling the then democratic government in a matter of days.
Adela Raz, was serving as Afghanistan’s Ambassador to the U.S., after having been the country’s first female Permanent Representative to the U.N. She suddenly found herself representing a government that no longer existed. Adela refused to recognise the Taliban’s authority and became an outspoken critic of their oppression of women and girls.
As Afghan women were systematically stripped of their rights - banned from school, erased from public life, and essentially silenced - Adela became a fierce advocate against this gender apartheid, demanding action from the international community. Today, she leads Princeton’s Afghanistan Policy Lab, working to keep Afghanistan’s future on the world’s agenda.
This is Adela’s personal story, and of her continued fight to champion the rights of women and girls.
Recorded February 2025.
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Transcript
Why is women's inclusion crucial in peace negotiations?
00:00:00
Speaker
No peace deal has ever succeeded if women's voice is not included. And no doubt the failure did happen. And at the same time, ah we did say that Taliban, when they come into power, they're going to eliminate the rights of Afghan women. And that's exactly what happened.
New Season Introduction: Leaders of Social Change
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome to an exciting new season of the Charity CEO Podcast, where we bring you the stories and insights of remarkable leaders who are changing the world for the better. We talk to the movers and shakers who are driving positive social change, inspiring you to think big, act boldly, and make a difference.
00:00:42
Speaker
A huge shout out to our incredible global community of listeners spanning over 55 countries. Your thoughtful comments and feedback continue to fuel this growing movement, and we couldn't do it without you.
00:00:54
Speaker
To all of you who pour your hearts and souls into making the world a better place, especially those of you in the charity and non-profit sectors, thank you for the tireless passion you bring to your work. This podcast is for you.
00:01:06
Speaker
I'm Divya O'Connor, and here's the show.
Adela Raz: Advocacy Against Taliban Policies
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Speaker
In August 2021, the Taliban swept back into power in Afghanistan after nearly 20 years, toppling the then-democratic government in a matter of days. Adela Raz was serving as Afghanistan's ambassador to the US after having been the country's first female permanent representative to the UN.
00:01:28
Speaker
she suddenly found herself representing a government that no longer existed. Adela refused to recognise the Taliban's authority and became an outspoken critic of their oppression of women and girls.
00:01:39
Speaker
As Afghan women were systematically stripped of their rights, banned from school, erased from public life and essentially silenced, Adela became a fierce advocate against this gender apartheid, demanding action from the international community.
00:01:54
Speaker
Now, as director of Princeton's Afghanistan Policy Lab, Adela continues to keep her country's crisis in the global spotlight. This is Adela's personal story and her continued fight to champion the rights of women and girls.
00:02:10
Speaker
Hi, Adela. Welcome to the Charity CEO podcast. It's truly an honor to have you on the show. Thank you, Divya, for having me. And I'm very excited to be able to speak with you. So you may be aware that I like to start the show with a few icebreaker questions and I have five questions for you. Okay, go ahead.
00:02:28
Speaker
So question one. Yes. As a child, what did you want to be when you grew up? boom I wanted to be a lawyer. That's what I wanted to do. And that idea sort of continued until my teenage years.
00:02:44
Speaker
And then it become even more stronger when I started to work with UNAMA at once. And I wanted to be a defense lawyer for women in Afghanistan because I just thought women as the judiciary system often needed support, especially from other women as their defense lawyers. And confession to be made When I arrived to the U.S., and that's how I did political science and international relations, when I asked in the U.S., how do you go to law school? Because in Afghanistan, law school is an undergraduate degree, and in the U.S. it's a master's degree.
00:03:18
Speaker
So everybody said it's a liberal art degree that you have to pursue. And I but it was really important that I had an idea in head, and it's sort of, I was lucky enough to be able To see that space and practice in a sense that my first year in college, when I went back home, I got an internship to work with the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Violence Against Women.
00:03:45
Speaker
So I traveled with her to multiple provinces and many detention centers for women. And I remember when we were doing the interviews and speaking to those women, exactly the clients that I wish are those who I once wished to defend.
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Speaker
That's why I say I had to make the confession. I realized I was so emotionally attached to everybody and each individual story that post the internship, when I came back to the US, it took me about six months to get out of it.
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Speaker
So I realized that I won't be able to treat the profession very professionally. I will be very much attached to the story. So I couldn't do it. And that's why I dropped the idea. Well, I see it really laid the groundwork for the rest of your career, though.
00:04:33
Speaker
You may say that. Yes. Question two.
Family Influence on Adela's Values and Strength
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Speaker
Tell us about a role model who inspired you. Well, in my life, I think three people really played an important role. My father is somebody who really gave me the wisdom and the path and values on what to choose and what life with full values mean.
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Speaker
And it really made my my experience in life in terms of being really rich because I had the pleasure of being able to live with him until he was alive as his daughter because he passed away and and really learning from him in that sense.
00:05:10
Speaker
ah So I gave him the credit that who I am in terms of finding the direction in life, it was him. The resilience I picked from my mother, i feel she was an important woman in my life.
00:05:26
Speaker
As a single mother, she raised four kids. And in that complex environment like Afghanistan, as a young woman raising four children when her husband passed away, and making sure all goes to colleges and universities on scholarships overseas.
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Speaker
It was a very, very tough job, but she did. And then I think... Truly, the power and the strength and the independence, it came from my grandmother.
00:05:54
Speaker
She was the woman that for a really long time, I had no idea how much of an impact it had in my life. But she was the strongest woman so far I've ever seen.
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Speaker
She was an elder sister. i had young brothers, born and raised in Kandahar, a very traditional I never went to school, but a very, very, very strong woman who has so much wisdom and poise and the way she always carried herself.
00:06:27
Speaker
And she stood for the strength of a woman. It was out of this place. I do remember one time when I got the scholarship to go to the U.S., And I always shared that story. My mom and I, we kind of contemplated and we didn't know how to bring the story to my uncles and break the news that I've got the scholarship and I'm going to go to the U.S. And that was 2004, so still a very early years for a young woman from Afghanistan to travel by herself and especially in part of the society and tribe and family that I grew up. I was the first woman from both paternal and maternal side to be able to go abroad and study.
00:07:05
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And I remember when my mom and I kind of like prepared the story on how to say it. But then when we went to my grandparents' home and we just right away said, at look after I got the scholarship, my mom said, and she's planning for her to go to the U.S. And that moment when my uncles were sitting and then I'm preparing that they're going to say, well, how, why?
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And then my grandmother, without even taking a single second, she stepped and then she right away said, and she's like, wow, what a wonderful news. She's going to be the first in the family.
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Speaker
We're so proud. I'm so proud of her. And I do remember when she said it, she said it with so much power and authority that nobody in the household at that moment, including my uncles, could say anything.
00:07:49
Speaker
So yes, it's my grandmother. Wow. And question three, what would you say is your professional
Traits of Women in Leadership
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superpower? I think I don't give up. I feel probably it's not only to me, to a lot of women in the leadership role when we arrive at the space where we earn that space for us.
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Often for a majority of us, and I always say no matter from what type of background we come, if it's in from Afghanistan, if it is from India, UK, US, s it doesn't really matter by now. I feel like it's very universal the experience we all go through when we arrive at that level of the leadership.
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Speaker
It comes with a lot of competition and a lot of skill sets that you build along the way to arrive. And one of those for all of us, I think it's very common we carry the same.
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It's really persistence and not giving up because you have been told by that that, well, you cannot do it, you should not do it, it's not the right thing to do it, you may not be able to do it, well, it's not appropriate for a woman to do it, or no other woman have done it before. All those, like it's always the reasons that people tell you why you shouldn't or you cannot do it. And you still have to somehow somewhere in the back of your head, you have to believe yourself and be still persistent and pursue and move on.
00:09:08
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And I think I would say, To me and to all the women out there, that's kind of a universal skill set we build up and we're known for. Absolutely.
00:09:20
Speaker
And question four, what do you miss most about Afghanistan now that you live in the U.S.? Oh, my God. The mountains. and Now it makes me emotional when I think about it.
00:09:32
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I do. I was raised and born in Kabul. So the image and the vision and the scenery that I have in my head, and I will always have it, it's really the mountains in that city. And it's a beautiful city because no matter in which part of the city you are, if you are in your house and you're in your bedroom, anything that has a window, literally, you're in an apartment building or you live like in a house with a yard.
00:09:58
Speaker
It doesn't matter in which part of the city you stand. When you look around, you see mountains. And that is beautiful. And sometimes some of the mountains far away in the back, they often have snow in the early spring.
00:10:10
Speaker
And I think that's the most beautiful part of it. So yes, I miss the mountains and that scenery and that vision and That look. That is beautiful. And our final icebreaker question, Adela.
Inspiration from Influential Women
00:10:22
Speaker
If you had the opportunity to interview anyone in the world, dead or alive, who would it be? And what one question would you like to ask them? o I have a list.
00:10:35
Speaker
That's a tough one, but it's very interesting you ask this question because I literally have a list of women that I wish one day i have the chance to go and sit down and ask them.
00:10:45
Speaker
And it's very interesting and it's very fascinating that that list is not only a one woman or two or from a specific industry. It starts from entertainment all the way entertainment. Politics, diplomacy, finance, writing and all that. But I think if I had, I thought about this the other day, one of the women, I really wish to sit down with her one day, but I have the honor to actually write an essay with her. in a book that was published by 11 women writers.
00:11:15
Speaker
And I just have the humble honor to be writing with her. It's Elif Shafak. She is a Turkish writer. and really, I think I've shared this with my very intimate and close friends.
00:11:26
Speaker
One of her novels, truly, there was a time in my life that it came in and gave me the sparkle and I treasure that and so I hope one day I get to be able to speak and talk to her and and I follow her and really when I was asked even about that book if I wanted to write an essay and among the writers they shared the name it was Elif Shafak and I said oh my gosh it's just my name is going to be printed next to her yes absolutely bring it in ah but Adela, you've already shared a little bit about your family, your parents, your grandmother.
Impact of Taliban Era on Education and Resilience
00:11:59
Speaker
Tell us a bit more about your early years. What was it like growing up in Afghanistan and how did your upbringing really shape your passion for gender equality and diplomacy?
00:12:10
Speaker
For me and so many Afghan women in my generation, the experience that we went through, it was pretty similar in a sense. Meaning that I was raised and born in Kabul and I was still among the very few lucky ones that I was raised in a family where my father was highly educated and i had and he had such a feminist view in a way in today's world that we are describing such a feminist view for woman and empowerment and I tell always people the story that even in that very traditional society and both my parents come from a pretty traditional ethnic background so despite that we were in Kabul but very traditional values at home
00:12:53
Speaker
My dad always, I'm the eldest and I have three younger brothers. And the values in the household, it was always built not based on gender. It was always based on the age, who's elder and who's younger.
00:13:08
Speaker
And it was very interesting, even in that conservative space when I grew up, and my first shock was when I started to work outside and I started to realize what was happening. Because in my household, I was treated so special. And always it was special just because I was the eldest kid in the household. So all my three brothers had to listen to me and I was a decision maker.
00:13:31
Speaker
And then I carried that when I went outside and when I looked around and and i kind of scratched my head and I said, oh my gosh, what's happening? And then of course I had a very strong grandmother as well. So I thought this was the norm everywhere you go. This is how it is.
00:13:45
Speaker
So I think I was a little naive. That was ah one very unique element in my upbringing. The second was also I grew up in a family where education truly mattered.
00:13:56
Speaker
I always say for my parents and especially for my dad, I could have missed my prayers, but I could have never missed my homework. My homework was so important that it was very strict rules that we all have to finish our homework and do well at school.
00:14:12
Speaker
So education truly matters. And my dad all would always say it's a wealth that nobody can steal it from you. So I think that path for me was really early on in life defined. So even when my father passed away, when we were very young and I was really young when he passed away, I always say we didn't have the doubt for a second.
00:14:30
Speaker
what to do in our education. We all knew we have to go to school, finish and do the highest level degree as much as possible. but I think that was important. So I kind of lived in a bubble in that sense.
00:14:41
Speaker
But then in that bubble was even more shrinked when Taliban first came to Afghanistan, because especially in Kabul, I was going to school and for somebody that education mattered the most. And then one morning you wake up and you're not allowed to go to school as a girl.
00:14:58
Speaker
And I remember the reason I was able to survive the five years I couldn't go to school was this hope that I always had been in my heart. And it was really pushed back by my father and my mom that this is this is a temporary time.
00:15:12
Speaker
And no matter even if you're formally not allowed to go to school, whatever education material is available, we are going to make sure you have access to it. And I think it was to our generation at the time that there was in the last years of Taliban, in the public, you barely could find literature that was printed not by the Taliban. It was like from before. So it was kind of a scarce resource, which meant like philosophy books. or encyclopedias, those type of books were becoming more scarce and scarce resource. And I remember as soon as one will find it in the market, my dad would make sure we have it, we have a copy and I have to just read it. It didn't even matter. It didn't even matter if it was an encyclopedia of I don't know, about biology, like with things that were just there. Like I remember in a very young age, I read Socrates. Socrates.
00:16:01
Speaker
ah right And I was too young to even understand what it was. And I remember the first few pages when I read of the book, I told my dad, I said, I don't understand. And she told me this is one of the best books ever, but I don't get it.
00:16:14
Speaker
And he said, keep reading, you will get it. And I remember I went through almost like a good chunk of it and then it clicked. So in that very, very dark days, there was this bubble of hope pushing me to move forward.
00:16:27
Speaker
And that was the sort of environment and I think the sort of resilience that you somehow build because, and I was lucky because I was young and I had this protective shield out there to protect me.
00:16:39
Speaker
But there will be times that those protective shields will break. Like I remember one time, I was coming from an English class and those who were hidden schools from the Taliban.
00:16:50
Speaker
We were not allowed to go and be educated as a woman or girls in any way, in any form. And then we lived in a neighborhood where there were hidden English schools classes. And I came one day from one of those schools and I was young and in an age that I was still not wearing burqa. So I had not hit that age limit yet, but tall enough, I remember. And and I saw the Taliban's vice and virtue vehicle and driving around our neighborhood.
00:17:18
Speaker
and quote unquote looking for people who were not dressed appropriately. And of course, because I didn't have a burqa and I had a big scarf and I was hiding on top of it, the risk was I was hiding my books underneath and holding them.
00:17:32
Speaker
As soon as I saw them, I saw them from a far proximity, but I saw them. I remember I was frozen and shaking. I couldn't take a single step. And then any verse of Quran and prayers I knew, I started to read out and just saying, God, just, you know, help me out. I can handle this.
00:17:50
Speaker
And so how miraculously, like I kind of was not noticed by them because I think visually I was far away. But I remember as soon as they passed by and I got home, I was shaking and I dropped my books and I told my mom, I said, i am not leaving this house without the burka. You're going to get me a burka. I'm going to wear it.
00:18:10
Speaker
And I don't want to take the risk again. And I remember my first burka was really from my aunt because I didn't have one. And how old were you then? oh gosh. 13, 12. Yeah.
00:18:21
Speaker
As long as you could be noticed, you were supposed to wear it. And I thought that day when I stood in the middle of the road, I felt like I was supposed to be noticed. And I was just lucky that didn't the the Vice and Virtue card did not see me.
00:18:34
Speaker
So yes, I started to wear it. And there was also like days, because later on, I also had my own homeschool, teaching young girls in the neighborhood. because I just thought schools were closed for longer than I expected.
00:18:47
Speaker
And then there were gradual interests from the neighborhood, the young girls, their parents will come to me. And it just started in a sense. They said, look, they because it was a very intimate neighborhood. People knew each other and families that we know you went to school and our daughters could not go to school at all.
00:19:02
Speaker
Would you be able to teach the minutes? A very Afghan tradition that usually the elders in a way try to come to help. And I was, quote unquote, the eldest sister in that space. So I started to teach girls and that then became to turn to a school and a homeschool. And I started to expand and admitted other younger girls. And there were twice that Anurus came to our home.
00:19:25
Speaker
And it was basically each neighborhood had someone that will manage it, and like a district representative, something like that. And he twice told my brother and said, look, we are aware you have a homeschool. So hide it for a like, stop it for a little while until the bus is lower.
00:19:42
Speaker
And then you can reopen it. And it happened twice. And I remember every time my brother, the first time he came and he told me, I just felt like Taliban already have figured it out. And it's just a matter of time when they knock our door.
00:19:54
Speaker
So moments like that will happen where that bubble will break for you. I love that expression from your father about education being wealth that nobody can steal from you. And you express so beautifully how you not only sought education, but also sought to give others education. And you are clearly a trailblazer. You're the first woman in your family to go to university.
00:20:18
Speaker
And you were, of course, appointed as Afghanistan's first female permanent representative to the UN at a relatively young age. Tell us about that experience, sharing some of the highlights and challenges of your tenure.
Historic UN Ambassador Role and Women's Empowerment
00:20:31
Speaker
So I think my professional journey really started for, again, for being among those that got the opportunity to go to the US and study on a scholarship. And I think doing both my bachelor's and master's in the US s on scholarships and and and going to relatively better and great and amazing schools that it helped me to shape my thought and view and kind of take the next steps so in terms of my career path.
00:20:57
Speaker
But I always say I went to schools where they train you as a global citizen. So I had this global citizenship kind of view and had, and I moved to the career of international development, which i really desired in my heart.
00:21:10
Speaker
And while working in that space for a good two to three years, um my dream was, or I always had done work with a nonprofit and international development organizations, never in the government.
00:21:21
Speaker
But then there was a time, and if you remember, it was in 2012 President Obama announced the withdrawal of the u s troops from of Afghanistan. And I remember at the time i was in the U.S. and Washington and working for one of the nonprofits, ah international development organizations at the time.
00:21:39
Speaker
And I kind of saw myself advocating for continuous support. And then that somehow started to make me realize, okay, if I'm asking the international community to stay engaged in Afghanistan, then why I'm away.
00:21:52
Speaker
So I think that was a very critical realization for me. And the second, I also found myself at that time, was such a critical voice for the government at the time, for everything that the government was doing. And So I had to realization at the time that, well, first of all, if I wanted to make a change, I have to be part of the change. Meaning if I'm criticizing the government, then I have to be part of fixing it rather than staying outside and criticizing it. And second, I also noticed if I'm advocating for international community to be in Afghanistan, then I must be in Afghanistan too.
00:22:25
Speaker
So remember at the time I decided to join the government, go back to Afghanistan and join the government. That was an a decision I made, but I never thought I would be on the political side of it a lot. It was more on the and development side. So i've thought I thought would be ministry finance or things like that. But then I got an offer to work for President Karzai at the time as spokesperson.
00:22:44
Speaker
So my government career in a way started in that path. And I was the first woman to become a spokesperson for president. And it's, ah again, a very traditional society.
00:22:56
Speaker
A woman speaking on behalf of the president is not really common. And then to do that, it was really breaking the barriers and so many ways in this, the taboo in the stereotype.
00:23:08
Speaker
But I think that was the age or that was the time when Afghan women had really come in the forefront and a lot of firsts were coming in so many spaces. And I think President's Office was really also for that change.
00:23:20
Speaker
And that's how am my journey started it. And then, as you rightly said, from there, i started to work with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs just because of the diplomatic, because I had done international studies.
00:23:32
Speaker
development and diplomacy as part of my studies and that seemed like a natural path and then when I became the first as you said the first ah woman from Afghanistan to become the permanent rep or ambassador to the UN I knew i was the first and I always thought I wouldn't be the last because we were at this amazing space in that golden era for woman empowerment in Afghanistan, where so many, as I said, so many glass ceilings were broken and women were coming left and right in so many critical and important positions.
00:24:07
Speaker
And it felt really good when you arrive. And I remember when my picture was hanging the wall at the embassy, we had a wall of the former ambassadors and the current ambassador. And of course, you have all the male ambassadors in Afghanistan being among the members of the United Nations that joined really first in the first years.
00:24:26
Speaker
So we had a long list of ambassadors, but always men. But getting that feeling every time I would walk by and I said, you know what, from now onward, there's going to be a line of women coming in here. And it was such ah such a great feeling. But of course, it was really, really unfortunate that, yes, I did end that role. And then I became the Afghan ambassador to Washington.
00:24:46
Speaker
But it was very quick, that soon and that very long-lived kind of career trajectory for so many women, you suddenly at the initial stage, you have this title of the first woman, and then you also become the last Afghan ambassador to the US.
00:25:03
Speaker
And I always say it's very painful when you hear that part as well, that you're the first and the last. You were, of course, appointed as Afghanistan's last ambassador to the US just one month before the Taliban returned to power in August
Challenges During Government Collapse
00:25:18
Speaker
2021.
00:25:18
Speaker
What was that like? And how did you navigate your role as ambassador to the US at a time when your government was collapsing? It was hard, I think, in Washington and even before that, and in New York as well as the Afghan ambassador to the UN, n because both was in Washington and especially in New York, we had a very high profile file at the UN. Our file was at the council, at the Security Council, and then in the space of where the world is just becoming more polarized. And you are at the council and there is always debate on Afghanistan. And then as a country that you're the recipient of such huge aid from the international community arriving. And at the same time, you being a woman, Afghanistan was still among the countries that had a female representative. I remember my first briefing to the council started with the German council presidency.
00:26:16
Speaker
at the UN and the German ambassador, a wonderful diplomat, and now he's at the Munich Security Conference. And he very warmly welcomed me in the first briefing. And I remember he said, welcome you and then congratulations to Afghanistan for having the first woman ambassador to the UN. And I do remember, and I always say the council seats and the tables are very much masculine and made for men, not for women. So for a petite woman like me sitting there, and then this is your first briefing. This is the comment that the council opens up to you and welcome you.
00:26:52
Speaker
And then I still like, I pulled myself like, because the tables are too long and I pulled the mic and I said, thank you so much, Mr. President. But I said, i also... hope that Germany will follow the same path as Afghanistan and have their first woman ambassador to the UN. And I remember they all... Oh, had Germany not had a UN ambassador who was female at that point?
00:27:15
Speaker
No, they did not. So I said that. And guess what? After Kristoff, they did send a female ambassador. design So I said, maneuvering it at a different level always was hard.
00:27:28
Speaker
And DC was even more harder, extremely hard. he I arrived at the middle of war in the country and and I didn't even have enough time to basically establish the relationship and the contact in a way that was needed because Kabul fell right away.
00:27:46
Speaker
And so it was this difficult balance of being the ambassador of your country. And then you do not have, it's very interesting, you don't have a state, but you have a country when your state collapses, your government collapses.
00:28:00
Speaker
And then at the same time, you were a boss and then you have staff, you're the supervisor, and then you're also representing ah nation that's in pain and loss and juggling it was extremely, extremely difficult. And yeah, I really do not have the one way of how I did it and how it should have been done, but I must say i did my utmost best.
00:28:24
Speaker
And then there was, I think, for a woman to be able to really represent and emotions also come. So when you're trying to balance your emotional attachment to your country as well, I remember there was this last day of the fighting and then just before the fall, I remember I was interviewed. The interview is still there and it was a live interview.
00:28:46
Speaker
We had intense meetings at the embassy and then the, I don't know remember which news channel was there, a station was like, the remote station came to the embassy at the door. So it was in the car. I went inside the car and I remember the images you will see. i am drowned. I'm tired.
00:29:02
Speaker
i am exhausted. And then this bombardment of question. And one of the questions I remember, it was like, why Afghan security forces are not fighting And i I remember it hurt so much in my heart because I was just getting out of a call where the forces were fighting in the front line. And it's so hard to explain what's going on and trying to explain that at that moment. So I think those were very, very difficult. And I believe the things that had really made me to move forward, it was the circle of great friends, supporters, my family, friends.
00:29:34
Speaker
And my children, I think at the end of the day, the motherhood is really a blessing, despite that sometimes it's brought up on as a weakness, but it's not. I always say, you know, this is a strength that women have and that others don't.
00:29:48
Speaker
Absolutely. And to what extent were you involved in the peace efforts and negotiations
What lessons can be learned from excluding women in peace talks?
00:29:54
Speaker
with the Taliban? Absolutely. We had a negotiating team, a formal negotiating team who were appointed and identified by the government at the time. And then they were negotiating in Doha. So I was not part of the team formally.
00:30:08
Speaker
But for many government officials at the time, at the ah level where I was as the ambassador and all other ambassadors were, So high-level government officials, we all had a critical role and a difficult role also to advocate for a few things. First, I think for me as an Afghan ambassador, Afghan woman ambassador, I remember it was really important that I advocate, first, that Afghanistan has changed.
00:30:36
Speaker
Second, that woman has a voice. And third, the concerns we had with negotiating with Taliban and how it would be hard to trust them. And I say this, I think Afghan women were not wrong.
00:30:49
Speaker
We were alerting everyone with the negotiations and we said it's going to be really, really hard to trust Taliban. We were also saying no peace deal has ever succeeded if women's voice is not included.
00:31:03
Speaker
And no doubt the failure did happen. And at the same time, ah we did say that Taliban, when they come into power, they're going to eliminate the rights of Afghan women. And that's exactly what happened.
00:31:15
Speaker
And it was hard. It was really, really hard. But we had very, very strong Afghan women and we advocated left and right. Like any peace agreement, you and I think ah Afghanistan amazon is not unique in its own way where absence of women voices is there. And we are also not unique when that absence happens. Then the failure is very much predicted. And that's exactly why negotiation or peace negotiations do fail.
00:31:40
Speaker
And that's exactly it was in our case. And like in many other cases in other countries as well, when the negotiation failed, when women were not part of it. And we did the same thing. But I think it was a political decision at the time.
00:31:52
Speaker
Yes, it really is sad and shocking to see the situation for women and girls in Afghanistan, which has gotten progressively worse with girls now banned from education, know, women pretty much excluded from the workforce.
International Influence on Taliban Policies
00:32:05
Speaker
What do you think the international community could or indeed should be doing that might make a tangible difference for women and girls in Afghanistan? It's a difficult question because my pragmatic part says there is very little room that one could ever expect for a change in Taliban's policy.
00:32:26
Speaker
If that expectation exists that after three years Taliban will just you know come to their senses and make a change and let girl and woman come back to the society and girls go to school, I don't think so that's going to happen at all. so I think that's the sad part.
00:32:42
Speaker
the whole question comes, okay, what can you do? And for many of us in Afghanistan, of course, we hope and aspire for a change and hopefully a change happens.
00:32:53
Speaker
But at the same time, I also part of that generation that once was denied going to school for five years. And my five years at the time went by with this whole expectation that the change is going to happen.
00:33:05
Speaker
And that's how I said, like I survived and my family made sure I survived with the hope that it's going to happen Every morning I will wake up and we'll be like, oh, Next week, I think there's going to be a change. And that's how five years passed by. So for me, looking back and saying, look, it took for us five years and I was still among the very few lucky ah young women, at least from my class, even at the time that the I didn't get married by then. I was still able to go to school. I still was able to pursue my dream.
00:33:34
Speaker
And then there were so many that couldn't. And the same may might be happening right now for so many young women that we have passed the third year mark. So I'm trying to scratch my head and say, look, what can we do, especially on girls' education in terms of the 21st century? Where we are, what technology moving to drastically?
00:33:53
Speaker
Are we going to have or do we have alternative for girls' education in Afghanistan if we cannot change the situation? Because there is a wish and then there is all the advocacy and all the pressure that you want to create on Taliban that they either change their mind or then there is an alternative for it.
00:34:10
Speaker
But at the same time, I also say, let's do something to make sure that today and tomorrow and next week is still not wasted. And we have a solution for girls at home to be educated.
00:34:22
Speaker
And frankly speaking, to until this moment, we haven't come up with the right solution yet. great I'm also a strong advocate for aid because it's a poor country. The figures every day that's coming out, it's more drastically...
00:34:38
Speaker
worse than the day before, the week before, the month before. So we're in this very tragic trajectory of things declining in a difficult way for many families, and especially single mothers. And I always look into my mom at the time when we lost my dad and she had to manage to raise four children on her own on those dark days.
00:35:02
Speaker
And I always bring the example of saying, look, my family survived at the time just because of the aid that was coming to Afghanistan. And I always say my family survived because we were receiving five breaths per day from WFP.
00:35:17
Speaker
You know, literally, if those five breaths per day was not there, I don't know how we would have managed. And that image is always in my head and saying how many other families are going to be going through the same situation right now, and especially single mothers.
00:35:31
Speaker
And I'm really hoping that we do continue this very great time, still the eight going to Afghanistan and for Afghan people and Afghan women especially.
00:35:42
Speaker
So five loaves of bread from the World Food Programme is what really sustained your family at that time. And then I feel like this is a good moment to perhaps reflect on recent USAID announcement.
Consequences of US Aid Withdrawal
00:35:54
Speaker
USAID have now terminated several international contracts and grants. One of the awards that has been terminated is a $21 million dollars grant to UN women that was seeking to re-establish comprehensive support services protecting women's rights.
00:36:08
Speaker
In Afghanistan, another grant that has been revoked is $49 million dollars to the IRC for safe and equitable access to primary education in Afghanistan. And I wonder if this withdrawal of US support feels a little bit like deja to you. And how do you see this actually impacting the regression of women's rights, both in Afghanistan and globally?
00:36:33
Speaker
Look, Divya, I mean, I must say, and I think we should acknowledge we are in the very worst time globally. Correct? It's a deja vu moment everywhere.
00:36:45
Speaker
a lot of time, I just have to pinch myself. I can't believe it because that type of drastic change in beliefs and a very... internal looking and closing down on principles of, you know, multilateralism and all that I think is dark time everywhere. Anywhere I see, I think election predictions are just not so exciting. And to be very honest, just going back and kind of advocating for our book, that the essay that I wrote in that book, it was last year, 11 women writers
00:37:20
Speaker
And top leaders, we got together. i mean, I'm not the writer. I'm just one of the contributors. We got together and put 11 essays on why democracy still matters. Because this was just before the election and the world was going into election. And we all saw the results were just not too promising.
00:37:37
Speaker
Correct? So we are in that stage of where things are very, very hard. And I think Afghanistan and so many other countries are going to be paying the prices. And to be very honest, I look around, I always thought it's going to be always the recipient countries. But now if we look within the societies we live, you know, the day-to-day life with the societies right now that you and I are staying, it is also impacted by, correct, with the decision that's arriving. And it's so looked upon one dimension and not multi-dimension in a sense.
00:38:08
Speaker
For us, I think we have gone and we're going through that difficult time one more time because Afghanistan, the first time when Taliban came, we were in a complete isolation from the rest of the world by every mean. And I think we're going into...
00:38:23
Speaker
through that one more time. And then it was also again, it was the regular Afghan civilian that paid the price. And that's going to happen again now because it's going to be the woman, the young girls that's going to be impacted. But our hope is, I think, I'm really, really hoping If there is a greater look into all this, if there is a way as a collective global community, we can, for one more time, think about the incredible work that's always there and been done by international development organizations, international organizations where humanity is in the heart of it.
Global Collaboration for Afghanistan's Crisis
00:39:00
Speaker
And then when we stand on humanity, I am. And more than ever, I feel like we do live in a global village. I feel like the physical barriers these days are starting to not matter anymore just because we're such an integrated and interdependent world that we are because of technology, because of the resources, because of the way how life has been, because of the connectivity that's built from you know the investment that has been made. So I feel the impact of so many leaders' the decision will really not only impact the countries that they lead, but other countries as well. And I think at the core of it, this time is really now that we have this testing moment is the multilateral institutions.
00:39:44
Speaker
I wrote the other day about the importance of the new upcoming selection of the Secretary General, just because I just feel these multilateral institutions, including the UN, and you just named one agency, UN Women, but I would say the larger UN n is under intense threat. You know, we are going back. I never thought it's going happen. We're questioning the importance of how to put together word order, right? So I don't know. It's grim times everywhere.
00:40:12
Speaker
It's a difficult time for every part of the world. And Adela, I know you have two young daughters who are, of course, fortunate to go to school in the US.
Explaining Afghanistan's Crisis to the Next Generation
00:40:22
Speaker
How do you explain the situation in Afghanistan to your daughters?
00:40:27
Speaker
It's not an easy conversation for me because I have two fears. First of all, my biggest fear is they may just hear it like anybody else as a story and hard for them to relate to.
00:40:40
Speaker
But for me, it's not a story. It's a reality and that I lived in at one time. So it's in that sense of like where I come and where they are. And that sense, like I always feel like they may not be able to grasp it well. But I have tried to explain to them, oh, which is I have two daughters, one eight.
00:40:56
Speaker
just turned eight and another five so they're still young but I wanted to make sure that they do understand that the opportunity that they have that they are going to school it's just not given to so many people it's almost like a prestige that they have and not many afghan women and and including young girls and young boys and other parts of the world do not have it if it's Because of war, because of poverty, because of lack of resources, knowledge, ah no support system.
00:41:26
Speaker
There's so many young children that we know globally that cannot go to school, and especially young women. And it has been hard. So my first daughter is named after one of our... Queens from all part of the world, Gawar Shad, who had built the first girls' school.
00:41:43
Speaker
And when I was growing up, her story was so powerful for me and a historical role model. And then I looked and read about, looked up her history through the books and read about her and Sons of Baha'u.
00:41:57
Speaker
What an incredible decision she had made at the time. And of course, at the time it religious schools, but it's really opening the doors for girls to quote-unquote go to school at the time. So I named my daughter after her.
00:42:09
Speaker
And one day I was trying to explain the story to her, ah why she's named and what does this mean. and And I remember when I told her the story, she was a little shocked at how girls couldn't go to school.
00:42:21
Speaker
And I think that was the moment I kind of paused. And then then she was five, six years old. And I think that's exactly the moment I realized. And I said, oh, God, OK, I need to do better.
00:42:33
Speaker
And then I explained to her and I said, did you know that your own mom couldn't go to school for five years? And I said, what? And then I made sure that we both sat down and I explained to her. And I think from that day onward, she knows it very well.
00:42:47
Speaker
And there has been a lot of conversation. But I still, ah you know, I'm not naive to the fact that what they hear from me, it's still what they hear. They haven't experienced it versus what I've went through and what the young girls in Afghanistan are going through.
00:43:01
Speaker
young girls around the world and young kids that are not able to go to school. But I really wanted to make sure that they do understand it's a privilege that they have for going to school.
Innovative Education Solutions for Afghan Girls
00:43:11
Speaker
Adela, you now work as the director of the Afghanistan Policy Lab at Princeton School of Public and International Affairs. So tell us a bit about your current work at Princeton and how the Policy Lab is working to restore educational opportunities for Afghan girls under the current regime.
00:43:28
Speaker
Sure. So the lab or the center is really in response to what is happening right now in Afghanistan um in terms of the severe humanitarian situation, the declining almost non-existent space for civil society organizations, the dire situation for women and girls and the human rights condition.
00:43:51
Speaker
And of course, an absence of a sustainable peace in the country. So it's sort of a space where we wanted to look into all four themes in a way, and especially on ah civic space and then on a woman, we really I critically wanted to look into the girls' education arena in a way of really first advocating as much as possible for creating the pressure that's necessary, hopefully, for any change in Taliban's policy, but also at the same time really looking into innovative ways where girls could go or have access through technology to education,
00:44:31
Speaker
And it hasn't been easy. We have tried to do small, beside the advocacy work and beside the policy briefs and informations and panels and discussions. So we have, for instance, two fellows this year who are helping us to look into the use of AI with online learning in a way that could be easier and local language for Afghan girls. And at the same time, we also want to look into this technology.
00:44:55
Speaker
a credential and certification process of education for girls, but at the same time also creating greater how to spotlight. We have really amazing Afghan women champions, despite the challenges like that we are speaking.
00:45:09
Speaker
They're still doing their small bits of work inside the country or outside of the country for education on a practical steps. And we're also trying to really identify these champions and bring them to the forefront as policy options for so many potential donors who want to help and contribute. So it has not been easy at all. it has been very, very difficult and in a way to say if we have been able to find a solution.
00:45:32
Speaker
Well, there's no one solution to the current problem. But we are in this dynamic of where we are in terms of a space of where there is a lot of unpredictability rather than predictability.
00:45:45
Speaker
There is a lot of grayness rather than clarity. Adela, the core audience for this podcast consists largely of colleagues across the charity and nonprofit sector.
Advice for Nonprofit Leaders
00:45:55
Speaker
And I was wondering, based on your experiences, if you have any learnings or advice that you could share with sector leaders and what might be some effective strategies for nonprofit organizations to sustain long term advocacy efforts in the current global context?
00:46:12
Speaker
Sure. i think we tapped on it a little bit earlier that where we are today globally, we are, I think, in the most difficult time of our lives in terms of the career and the work we have and the work we have done and continue to do, which is in this whole sector of nonprofit development work, advocacy, human rights and education.
00:46:34
Speaker
humanitarian aid or humanity in the horror of it, in a sense, it's a shrinking space, I think we must say and that we have to work acknowledge. There are so many forces from left and right in terms of, and the situation is pushing us to question the work we have done. Have we done it right? Have we made a mistake? Did we succeed?
00:46:52
Speaker
Truly the question of efficiency is an important question that we offer. have in our head and trying to figure out was it efficiently done, not done. But I always say, you know, we shouldn't question the essence of it.
00:47:03
Speaker
We could question the strategy, but not the essence. And I really hope the leaders out there, the nonprofit sector leaders out there, i hope their focus is not fogged by this type of discussion out there. And I really hope that they have more clear vision and not distracted.
00:47:25
Speaker
From what they have made their goal to be, I think that's number one, which basically means be more determined, stay more stronger, stand more taller, bring greater resilience, work harder than ever before, because I think it's a testing moment for all of us.
00:47:45
Speaker
And naturally, when hardship arrives, the reaction is we we slow down, we step back. And I think we I say the other way around, let's hold hands together and go even much stronger, much harder and really not lose sight.
00:47:59
Speaker
And at the same time, I think I really hope because the foundations and the contributors out there, they're also going through a very, very difficult time. And I'm confident that their thinkings are also impacted somehow by everything in the narratives and the debates that they hear.
00:48:17
Speaker
And my hope is that they still stand and stand strongly and believe than ever before on the great work they have done. We can do better on effective efficiency.
00:48:28
Speaker
But I think, as I said, the essence of where we come together and try to do the things that's usually not very easy, usually very, very hard. And we need to do it even more because out there, there is either larger need.
00:48:42
Speaker
And if you could go back in time and think of that young 12-year-old Adela who was standing there in the middle of the road, clutching her books underneath her scarf, trying to hide from the vice and virtue police, what advice would you give to her if you could go back in time and talk to her?
Encouraging Persistence for Future Empowerment
00:48:58
Speaker
I think I would tell her to do it one more time. I think she did it great. Honestly, I think in the process, of course, there were compromises she had made in her own personal life as a young girl, as a teen, because all of that path was not easy. You had to put ah do a lot of sacrifices.
00:49:14
Speaker
But at the end of the day, the type of satisfaction we get from the work that we do, it's so satisfying and so fulfilling. that Yes, there are days sometimes I probably, as a mother, I probably selfishly you will tell my daughter, you know, that's a difficult path, don't choose.
00:49:33
Speaker
Because I'm a mother, I'm a very, very protective shield. Right. But for Adula, because that's not the child, I would just say do it one more time. And it's fascinating that you shared that actually the wearing of the barakah was like a protective shield for you.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yes, it was. It was because it made me to look like all other women and then we could carry the books underneath it easier. And at the time, it's also, I think, a surrender you do, right?
00:50:06
Speaker
I kind of pushed it and pushed it and you go into two paths. First is, it's this part of like, you're saying, okay, this is a short time, it's going to change. this is short time, it's going to change. And I'm not going to wear a burka, I'm going to avoid it and avoid it.
00:50:20
Speaker
And then there is this one moment when it arrives and you're in this crossroad of like either being beaten and your books being taken away from you and your school being shut and you lose the wealth that my father always said that this is the true wealth in life and you lose gaining that wealth or it's true, you almost You break and you surrender and or you think you act smartly. I think probably at the time I thought I was acting smartly and I'm putting this work up because I'm hiding my book underneath. And it was true. I completely did hide my books underneath and I did continue to go to school hiddenly. And I did learn English exactly then, actually. i learned it during Taliban time.
00:51:05
Speaker
So yes, I think that was kind of like my fight or maybe not even my surrender. I think it's like, you know, you choose a different way of fighting. it. You're like, I'm going to fight it now wisely and smartly so that you don't even know I'm going to fight it. And I think that's all women at the time did. Like I always say this, like when Taliban left, learning English in Afghanistan is really tough, and especially then. So I could speak English. I mean, broken English, not...
00:51:29
Speaker
And I learned computer, just being familiar. And those days, computers were like this, how do I say, you know, but not we had it the same way that we have it now everywhere. Like one household would have as there would be one instructor and everybody would line up for it.
00:51:43
Speaker
So for me, like somehow defeating Taliban in that way of fighting them back. And it was almost like you turned it on its head and and used it to empower yourself. Yes, I empower myself, keeping the hope alive, because I feel in life when you do not have the hope alive, then you lose everything.
00:52:01
Speaker
So keeping that hope alive, and no matter how much there is pressure from the regime to tell you, you don't matter, you're a woman, you're just there to get married and bring children. There's no hope for you.
00:52:12
Speaker
and then you still try. You still try to get above it. You still go. you still don't marry. You still continue to go to learn English, which honestly, everybody was... scratching their heads like, why would what would she do with the language? What would she do with the language? I remember. and But that was the only thing available in our neighborhood. That was the only type of tutoring available or homeschools that existed. It was English schools. I said, ah English classes. And I said, I'm going to go to this. And then later on, there were computer science classes. And I just went ahead and I took whatever was available.
00:52:43
Speaker
And so many other young girls because those were institutions run by women for girls. So... Adela, this has been such an inspiring and moving conversation. And thank you for sharing your experiences so candidly. And as we come to a close, what is one thing you'd like listeners to take away from this conversation? Give us a final thought or reflection.
Role Models for Future Leaders
00:53:03
Speaker
Thank you, first of all, Divya, for having me. And i I have always told you I enjoy having a conversation with you. think one ah takeaway would be now as a mother, I think I'm going to bring it in a more personal experience.
00:53:17
Speaker
Now as a mother, raising two young girls in a different country, in a different society, with different experience compared to what I grew up too, which often I think in this new generation that ah we're we're raising, there is less commonalities that we are having more and more. So I'm such a strong advocate for role models, role models that really resembles the realities that the younger generation live, they can look up to and something that it can inspire all of us in our own way,
00:53:51
Speaker
we had people to look up to and we had people to hold on to. There were ways that gave us inspiration andrew helped us to draw a lesson. And I think that incredible space for role models that relates to the younger generation exists even, the need is even higher than before on these difficult times. And I think i would say both for men and women, because we always talk about the young girls, but I think out there, there are young men and more and more figures and data is arriving that they're struggling with everything that's happening. So I think it's extremely important where we are. We kind of reflect and really invest a lot in identifying and advocating and streamlining and bringing and creating spotlights for role models that the younger generation could relate to.
00:54:39
Speaker
Adela Raz, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Divya, for having me. And as I mentioned, I truly enjoyed the conversation with you and I look forward to seeing you soon.
00:54:53
Speaker
Well, that's a wrap on another inspiring episode of the Charity CEO Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling empowered and uplifted. I know it did for me. If you loved what you heard, please share the joy by leaving us a quick review on your favorite podcast platform.
00:55:09
Speaker
Reviews really help us reach more listeners and grow this amazing community of change makers. Be sure to also hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And for even more inspiration and resources, head on over to thecharityceo.com.
00:55:23
Speaker
There, you can dive into our past episodes from the last five seasons and find valuable content to help fuel your impact. Thank you for listening. And remember, together, we're building a better world.
00:55:35
Speaker
See you next time.