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JeVon Ikner- Overcoming A Crippling Kratom Addiction
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Je’Von Ikner joins the show to share a raw, grounded conversation about addiction, honesty, and the slow work of becoming a rooted man. As the founder of The Rooted Man, Je’Von helps men reclaim their strength, clarity, and purpose through embodied coaching that weaves together nervous system awareness, somatic practice, and values-based living. His work is designed for men who are tired of numbing out, performing, and pretending—and who are ready instead to cultivate depth, connection, and integrity from the inside out.
Episode Overview:
In this conversation, Josh and Je’Von explore Je’Von’s multi-year journey with kratom—how it began as a “harmless” solution for back pain and slowly evolved into a hidden daily addiction intertwined with alcohol, shame, and disconnection from his wife, son, and the things that once made him feel alive. They unpack what it actually took for him to get free: drawing a hard line in the sand around his son’s birthday, building an online support network, creating and sticking to a tapering plan, and enduring a long season of withdrawal and emotional recalibration.
From there, the conversation widens into how addiction suppresses connection, desire, and creativity, and how removing a numbing agent can slowly restore capacity for intimacy, joy, and aliveness. Je’Von shares the agricultural framework behind The Rooted Man—“clearing the land,” “tilling the soil,” “planting seeds,” “watering the crops,” and “harvesting”—as a practical roadmap for men who realize they’ve been “painting the leaves” instead of tending the roots of their lives. The two also challenge the ways men use “plant medicine” and spiritual language to bypass hard inner work, masking avoidance as growth and depth.
What You’ll Learn:
- How a “natural plant” like kratom can quietly slide from pain relief into full-blown dependence, secrecy, and self-betrayal
- The physical and emotional realities of kratom withdrawal, including the long tail of mood swings, anxiety, and nervous system recalibration
- Why community and honest accountability are often the missing ingredients in getting free from addictive patterns
- How addiction numbs not just pain but also connection, creativity, desire, and the simple things that make you feel most alive
- The role of honesty with yourself and your partner, and how shame, partial truths, and fear of confrontation keep cycles of addiction in place
- A practical, step-by-step framework from The Rooted Man: clearing the land, tilling the soil, planting seeds, watering the crops, and harvesting your gifts
- The subtle ways men “paint the leaves” with plant medicine, psychedelics, and spiritual language instead of doing the slow work of tending their inner soil
- How to begin replacing numbing behaviors with life-giving practices, brotherhood, and aligned action so you can live as a more rooted, present man
Host: Josh Cearbaugh
Website: https://joshcearbaugh.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcearbaugh/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshcearbaugh/
Podcast: https://www.multifacetedmasculinity.com/
Online Course: https://www.jumpstartyourlife.com
Guest: JeVon Ikner
Website: https://therootedman.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jevon_ikner
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Transcript
Introduction and Focus on Kratom Addiction
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's episode, in a sense, is really a continuation of my last episode. And if you haven't listened to that, I would encourage you to go listen to It gives you an overview as to why I've been silent for the last six months.
00:00:13
Speaker
And a big factor of it is an addiction, specifically to something called Kratom, or Kratom, depending on who you talk to. And today's guest also struggled with it, and I thought it would really good to bring him on just to talk about specifically Kratom, what it does, how it affects you, really get a little bit more into the weeds of the impact of it on people's physical bodies and then also the emotional impact of it.
Personal Challenges and Role Models
00:00:42
Speaker
And really coming from someone who has worked through that addiction and found a ah life ah ah thriving life on the other side of that, um I think it's really good to hear from people that don't sugarcoat the challenge of it and are also um able to give people hope.
00:01:05
Speaker
I know that that was a big factor for me when I was struggling with my addiction was Just a sense of hopelessness, of feeling powerless and hopeless because at the time i I didn't look up and see or hear from other people that had overcome this. And so I really felt alone.
00:01:23
Speaker
And...
Sharing Stories for Hope and Motivation
00:01:26
Speaker
I want to use my platform to extend that hand that maybe someone needs to hold on to to begin that process of coming out of the gutter that they may find themselves in and to really understand that even and no matter how dark it is, and this can go beyond even just addiction,
00:01:45
Speaker
is that it does not have to be your new normal, that you can choose to move through the dark place that you're at, the powerless place that you may feel like you're at, the hopeless place you may feel like you're at,
00:01:58
Speaker
and really build a life that you ultimately desire and that you deserve. That does not mean it's the easy, and more than likely it'll be harder than you anticipate it in some ways, and more life-giving than you anticipate it in others. and I know that that's what I've found. and Today's guest is a man that played a role in me finding more than I thought I would find in my journey of coming out of a Kratom addiction.
00:02:23
Speaker
And that is a true friend. And so without further ado, let's get into the conversation of overcoming addiction.
Introducing the Inspiring Guest and Masculinity Exploration
00:02:31
Speaker
We're going to be talking about Kratom specifically, but really the principles that you get from this conversation can be applied to any area of your life that you find addiction And I hope that you're able to find a small piece of motivation and encouragement that helps you move out of where you may find yourself if you're one of those people like I was that got the addictive hooks latched into them and found themselves feeling powerless.
00:03:03
Speaker
Men, we are not simple, chest-thumping, rock-smashing, fire-starting barbarians. We have depth. We intensely feel. We are scared, yet brave.
00:03:15
Speaker
We love to have fun. We're imperfect and make mistakes. We're compassionate and loving. We are multifaceted. Let's explore the reality of masculinity together.
Friendship Origin and Deep Topic Openness
00:03:41
Speaker
There are times in my life that I get to come across individuals that are more than just a friend. And today's guest is evolving into that. And the reason for that is because I met him, quite frankly, at a really low point where we're gonna dive into and talk about, but I attended a somatic workshop, ah super intensive, we'll call it, or as my wife's calling it, a somatic bootcamp.
00:04:09
Speaker
And he was in the room. And that began the relationship, which over the last, what's it been, seven, eight months, something like that, has evolved into just a true appreciation for who he is and what he carries.
00:04:23
Speaker
And his willingness to be present in his life, as well as dive into topics that a lot of men are not willing to dive into, which if you've listened to any of my episodes, you know, that's what I'm
Kratom Addiction Story: From Pain Relief to Struggle
00:04:35
Speaker
all about. So without further ado, Javon, thank you so much for taking a little bit of time between we're actually in between the the bridge and extreme right now to to carve out some time to have some honest conversations.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yes, brother. Thank you. um And on that note, i I want to dive right in. I don't want to waste any time. And I want to talk about the topic of Kratom. You know, it's become pretty popular in the last, let's say, five years, six years, something like that.
00:05:03
Speaker
And I am someone who I got hooked on it. And didn't even realize the depth of it and the shame that I had with it. But I know that that's something that you've been open about discussing.
00:05:16
Speaker
And I want to have a conversation
Understanding Kratom's Addictive Nature
00:05:18
Speaker
around that. And first and foremost, just to share just to hear your story and your journey of what why did you turn to that? How did you turn to that? um and And what was that journey like for you?
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:05:33
Speaker
I mean, I have the date dain but it was somewhere between 2014 and somewhere in that window I sharing with a friend that I was dealing with back pain and he had asked if I'd ever tried Kratom because he had had some pain that he was dealing with and he was using Kratom as a As a way to alleviate the the the pain he was he was dealing with. And
Dependency and Life Impact
00:06:05
Speaker
I'd never heard of it.
00:06:06
Speaker
Yeah. And was like, no, I never even heard of it. He explained a little bit about it. um I do remember in the way that he framed it, it it sounded so... It it sounded...
00:06:22
Speaker
had no reservations about trying it. I'll justll yeah i'll just put it that way. I'm someone that's... very intentional about what I put in my body or I try to be. yeah And the way he framed it, nothing, nothing, there was no red flag. There was no alarms that went off. It was like, whoa, this may not be something.
00:06:40
Speaker
um And so he brought a sample in for me. He brought like just a, you know, I think it was like, he gave it to me in like pill form, capsules.
00:06:50
Speaker
Okay. And um I remember the first evening that I took it, I was like, oh, this feels like a Vicodin.
00:07:01
Speaker
It had very similar feeling of a Vicodin. And as I like started to research what it actually was, I realized that there are some there's some commonalities with it, right? Being from the opiate family.
00:07:16
Speaker
um And it was effective. was like, oh, wow, this is really effective. And I started taking it.
00:07:27
Speaker
It wasn't it wasn't daily. it You know, it was maybe a couple times a day. and I was like, oh, why do I have to do it a couple times a day? Why not do it do this daily?
00:07:38
Speaker
and then it became less about like the pain management for my back. Yeah. It became more about like really wanting that feeling that I was getting, which was like this euphoric. I was feeling sedated. um All was well.
00:07:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's just offered really this buffer to any kind of like any any static that may have been happening in my world. And and so this is the this is over the course of like a year where it became like a daily thing that I was doing.
00:08:12
Speaker
OK.
00:08:16
Speaker
At this particular point, ah it became more recreational. It was like, man, I'm going to do this for this feeling that I'm desiring. and That inevitably led into me doing it throughout the day, more amounts of it, more amounts of it.
00:08:34
Speaker
And then eventually just really getting into a cycle where I was really dependent on it and addicted to it.
00:08:44
Speaker
And that lasted for five, six years. Wow. Okay. at At the end there, I would say like the last two years is where I just felt, I was really aware of how reckless and unintentional and how unhealthy my use had become.
Quitting Journey: Promises and Support Groups
00:09:08
Speaker
I was, I was hiding it. I was, I was making sure that I had, if we were like leaving to go out, it wass like, man, I have to have a certain amount with me yep to to, to, you know, to make sure that I don't enter any space where I don't have it and want it.
00:09:26
Speaker
And, and it just energetically, it just felt like I was abusing the substance. It didn't feel like it was like life giving,
00:09:37
Speaker
And so I was in that space for about two, three years when I was like, man, i I have to get out I get to get out of this for myself to, you know, bring myself back to a healthier space. And I couldn't do it.
00:09:49
Speaker
I just did not have the means or support. um Quite frankly, the desire, the real true internal desire to to get myself out of that space. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how dirty.
00:10:01
Speaker
How did you get out of it? a
00:10:06
Speaker
The first thing that I did was promise myself that I would not not experience another, my son's birthday.
00:10:20
Speaker
i would not experience his next birthday having still have been using Kratom. okay um that yeah I made that promise to myself and I made it to him, maybe didn't vocalize it to him directly,
00:10:34
Speaker
Um, so that was enough to gain me leverage and kind of harness that or just deepen my why. And then I got support. I, uh, got support online. There's several Facebook, there's two Facebook groups that I joined.
00:10:50
Speaker
Um, and I just started to learn about it and learn about what other people were experiencing and what they'd use to help, uh, you know, break their cycle of use, um,
00:11:01
Speaker
And then ultimately, I had set up a tapering schedule for myself that I was able to keep and maintain. And May 1st, two years ago, was was a yeah was my last use. I would say the you know the the end of June was my last use. May 1st was like the day I was like, hey, I'm doing this, moving forward without this substance anymore.
Withdrawal and Community Support
00:11:25
Speaker
Okay. It was tough. It was tough, man. Yeah. That was a brutal, brutal process with the withdrawal. Yeah. I would say it took 18 months for me to like feel recalibrated to a point where I was like,
00:11:41
Speaker
okay, I can function here without having mood swings, without, um I was dealing with these bouts of anxiety that were creeping in. And there were other little physical ailments that i I would say started to fade away from being pretty persistent yeah out of 18 months. It's like a long time, man.
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it. I like I said, it's something that I've struggled with, too. And my withdraws, I don't think enough people talk about the withdrawal side of it, because i I really aggressively for me, it was about nine months that I was addicted to it and hiding it. There's a a little bottle called feel free that does anything but ah you feel free for the moment. But then similar to you, it was it was more so of managing the withdraw more so than using it in a in a healthy way. and when I got off, I tapered off and then went to a friend's house in about a three week period, really aggressively
Social Connections and Emotional Well-being
00:12:55
Speaker
withdrew. And it was I mean, I had all the opioid withdraws, the insomnia, the diarrhea, the cold sweats, the achy skin.
00:13:05
Speaker
And then also the social side of things, like all of that. Right. And so it, I think you touched on something that was really, really important. And I, cause I did the exact same thing, except a little bit different where I had a tapering schedule and I had all this stuff in plan.
00:13:21
Speaker
But I didn't get the community. I didn't get connected to people when I was trying for like, there's about a three month period where I'm like okay, here's my tapering schedule. I did not stick with it because my tapering would throw off my sleep. And then when I would throw off my sleep, then i knew I could just run to the gas station and get something that would feel better. And when I was more tired, it was easier to make the poor decision, all of that.
00:13:46
Speaker
But then what changed everything for me was community, was was not doing it alone. And can you speak to that piece of it, the the just the importance of not trying to to confront this alone?
00:14:02
Speaker
Yeah.
Relationship Strains and Realizations
00:14:03
Speaker
Again, this was this was, it wasn't an in-person thing. it was It was social media. yeah um And there was a bit of connection, right?
00:14:14
Speaker
that I made with certain people individually, but mainly it was just a group group thread where yeah people were sharing me about their experience. They were offering support to other people.
00:14:25
Speaker
um They were talking about supplements that they'd used to maybe help with some of the the withdrawals, it really was an educational piece that that was the piece that got got me, I started to learn more about the kratom itself. And then yeah also what what the impact that it has in people's worlds when they when it you know when they when when you start to abuse it.
00:14:53
Speaker
um And there was, um there I'm thinking if there was like an accountability piece i feel like there was some sort of accountability piece. Yeah.
00:15:04
Speaker
I know every so often i would, I would come in and say, Hey, I'd give an update on where I was. Okay. You know, in this community, they they called it the sludge. So I'd come in and say, you know, seven days free of the sludge.
00:15:18
Speaker
um So that, that was really helpful. um and And then the piece that you referenced is like, just not feeling alone in this thing, you know, not feeling isolation is where shame can start to bind us.
00:15:33
Speaker
And so that piece of, uh, you know, seeing and hearing and, um, you know, being witness to other people that were in, you know, similar circumstances or people that had been had been in that particular circumstances or or were trying to, you know, move through it in the way that I had up until that point. It was just a collective yeah a collective way to feel supported and to not feel alone.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah. What did you after tapering on? I know you said it was 18 months before you could really recalibrate. But what did you notice even let's say over those 18 months or six months, really when you said, okay, that hard line in the sand is there and am no longer going to be dependent on this.
00:16:23
Speaker
What did you notice it was suppressing emotionally, energetically, just in your how you see yourself? Because it is it suppresses pain, but it suppresses a lot more than that as well.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yes. Connection. My desire for connection had been suppressed. no Mainly with my wife.
00:16:46
Speaker
I can recall desiring to...
00:16:55
Speaker
you know our art we have it we we up into that point where I got like really heavy in the abuse, we'd had like an evening group routine that helped us connect, whether it was just sitting on a couch, watching a movie or talking about our day or whatever, just a moment in time to connect.
00:17:10
Speaker
And then I remember not wanting that to happen or finding reasons to to not create space for that um or or like really like secretly hoping that she would go work out or do something go for a walk or something else so i could have my time um you know and do my routine where uh i actually started introducing alcohol into my ah my use too, because I noticed that that that tinkered the feeling a bit.
00:17:44
Speaker
okay It's likely adding more sedation to it.
Reclaiming Life and Energy Management
00:17:48
Speaker
um yeah That was something too that was like came into a mix. So it was like the Kratom and then this like abuse of the alcohol because I had paired them together.
00:17:57
Speaker
um But I would say connection. Connection, and I'm able to see this in hindsight, but the things that like really made me feel alive, like being out in nature, tracking just going to events, going to shows and concerts or events.
00:18:18
Speaker
connecting with community, all the you know all the things that really gave me life, playing instruments, reading, had that like there was i none of that was in my life at this point.
00:18:31
Speaker
okay And I remember thinking at some point too, when I was on a crate, I was like, man, like i not these things that were like life-giving to me, they're like dot they're like a distant memory.
00:18:46
Speaker
How'd you get them back?
00:18:49
Speaker
It was a slow process. It was a very slow process. he um One of the things I do with the the men that I support is we we go through a first process called clearing the land. And it's really about plugging up energetic leaks.
00:19:06
Speaker
Okay. Creating distance and space. And even in some pace in places, just removing...
00:19:15
Speaker
things that don't necessarily support our wellbeing and vitality and rejuvenation. And so with this massive thing out of my life, that was, was, was my energy was leaking from it. And, and so with, with that out of my life, you know, life force started to, you know, take shape within my vessel.
00:19:38
Speaker
And then naturally through it expression, Oh, I started to gravitate back to those things that, You know, like it's just like ah attraction and just vibrating on a different frequency. And I'm now resonating with all these things that were supporting the way that I was vibrating, you know, prior to really getting, you know, deep into the Kratom
Marital Dynamics and Communication
00:20:00
Speaker
use.
00:20:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. How did your how'd your wife navigate that? Like did those last two years where you were hiding and removing connection? i mean, did she pick up on that? Did she confront you at all?
00:20:13
Speaker
ah what what What was her experience? She didn't she didn't confront me. um She didn't pick up on it. I shared with her that, Hey, I, you know, I'm, this is ah an addiction.
00:20:27
Speaker
I, I, have an addiction to this thing now. And she offered support. know, she, she said, you know, what, what do we need to do to help you here? And we had kind talked, talked through that.
00:20:38
Speaker
Um, interestingly enough, brother is, uh, something that we still talk about is i I had a dot a desire, which I didn't express to her, now that I'm that i'm sharing it, for for more support, for more confrontation. and And so that that's led us into a conversation around that.
00:21:05
Speaker
you know How much of that am I projecting onto her without having communicated with her? But yeah, I'd framed it to her in the ways like,
00:21:16
Speaker
yeah you You saw me going through this and struggling and there was no confrontation. Yeah, yeah. you You did this, right? You did this, right? um Fortunately, i'm and um I feel like I have a level of awareness to shift that conversation into what was the unmet need that I desired in that moment.
00:21:37
Speaker
Okay. So we don't get into the whole drama triangle cycle. Sure. But it's very much alive in me still wanting to be like, oh, you' you you didn't confront me. You didn't stop this, you know? So...
00:21:48
Speaker
um so Yeah. Yeah. I know for my wife, she has a history of, of a codependent tendency. And even with her ex, she was very codependent and she said something really interesting after I came clean with her. She was like, well, I, I knew something was off. I couldn't necessarily pinpoint. I suspected it was this, but i I was afraid to confront you. Like that was actually a big fear of hers.
00:22:14
Speaker
And so in her, like she does an amazing job of kind of owning her side of things. And she was sharing with me how there was almost an enabling side of things because of a deep seated fear of me rejecting her or dismissing her, etc.
00:22:32
Speaker
But that fear caused a lack of confrontation and which further enabled now that is no way, shape or form on her. I was the one that was doing it and hiding, et cetera. I just think that a lot of times women, especially those that were intimate with or a partner, they're far more in tune to the the distance than we may realize. But even that distance in and of itself, it's causing their own things to come up that may be hard for them to navigate. Does
Community Support and Honesty in Addiction
00:23:01
Speaker
that make sense? Sure.
00:23:02
Speaker
Oh, 100%. Yeah, my wife has her own version of that is in that she, she, she was frozen in terms of how to support me, not because of the kratom use, but the other things that were going on in my life at that particular time, which I haven't shared until this point with you um,
00:23:26
Speaker
there were some massive, massive unfoldings in life events that were happening at this particular time. um One being, trying to do it in chronological order, that
00:23:42
Speaker
the the first one was that our son was born. yeah So we the our yeah my son was born The second being that I had shut down a CrossFit gym that I'd ran for 13 years and was in this transition of creating this next chapter for myself in in terms of career.
00:24:05
Speaker
and um And then lastly, my my mom had passed away. And, uh, and she was dealing with an advanced form of cancer for, for about a year or two.
00:24:20
Speaker
Um, and so my wife had shared with me, it's like, you I'm, I'm recognizing all these things that are happening and, and, and, um, seeing how heavy and burdensome, burdensome they, they were to me. um,
00:24:39
Speaker
just being fearful of getting in the way of how I was navigating it all. Okay. Even if it meant I'd carved out this, this time, because in her eyes it was right. I was hiding this thing. Even if I had carved out this time in and in the night where I would have a couple of glasses of wine.
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah. I don't think she knew as we're going through that, that, I was using the Kratom as much as I was. So even talking through this with you, it's it's really like even, yeah, to to to hold her accountable for all that, sure realizing what she didn't know, it doesn't even make sense. Yeah.
00:25:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially, because I know for me, I can tell partial truths. Right. So I would to for a false sense of connection, i would share.
00:25:41
Speaker
yeah i'm I'm taking Kratom, but I wouldn't be honest with the reality of it. I wouldn't come clean like this is the brutal truth. And sure so she couldn't respond to something that she doesn't know.
00:25:53
Speaker
Right. So like she felt energetically, emotionally, something was off. But she didn't know the reality of it because i wasn't in my shame. i wasn't willing to share the reality of it.
00:26:06
Speaker
right Sounds like you have an amazing wife like I do, where when I did come clean, it was like once I finally shared the reality of it, she actually the day that I would i is i was like, I can't do this anymore. I have to tell her.
00:26:21
Speaker
I walk in the house. I'm crying in the car. I walk in the house and she comes up to me and she's like, hey, just want to check in. Are you like, how are you really? And so she gave me the opportunity to come clean.
00:26:33
Speaker
And her response was, okay, I'm here with you. What do we got to do? You know, it was the it was this. Now I know. Now let's link arms and get through this together.
00:26:44
Speaker
And I like what like I had, I had the detox, I had cleanup, I had, you know, all of that to do. i had to rebuild trust with her, understandably. But that I think that's like getting not not trying it alone, but also coming clean, first and foremost with yourself. I
Misuse Justifications and Self-reflection
00:27:02
Speaker
don't know about you. But when I was hooked on it, I would lie to myself often to justify staying in that lower state.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, Yeah, 100%. want me to share the lies that I was... Yeah, yeah, please. I think a lot of people get something from it.
00:27:25
Speaker
um the The one, and it's I guess it's a nuanced truth, is that it's it's ah it's ah it's ah it's a plant. It's this herbal plant.
00:27:39
Speaker
ah yep Yeah, it's not this synthetic... You know, lab made. It's not a painkiller. It's not an opioid. It's a plant medicine.
00:27:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. that That was that piece. um
00:27:57
Speaker
What was that? What else was I saying to myself? I'm sure there was some thread about it's I don't really have an issue with it. Yeah. Some thread of that, because like later on, right, it was really clear that there was it was it was causing.
00:28:14
Speaker
some unwanted things in my world. But by then the addiction. Yeah. Yeah. What'd you say? Yeah. I was gonna say by then, by the time that justification comes in the addiction, the physical addiction, there's the emotional energetic, all of that, there's a physical addiction as well.
00:28:34
Speaker
So by the time you get to the I can stop whenever I want, if you're saying that to yourself, and then you can't, then it's probably a ah ah used car salesman that's the cheesy type that's trying to press something on you that isn't necessarily the best for you.
00:28:51
Speaker
if Right, right, yeah. um I also was saying that it's it's it's helping me be ah better a better parent.
00:29:03
Speaker
Yes, speak to that. Yeah, so... I realized that I had more, i don't even want to call it patience. it i In my mind, it was patience.
00:29:19
Speaker
But what it truly was, was i i just wasn't feeling. Yeah. So there it was patience because there was like disconnection. yeah um yeah but you were emotionally and disassociated from the situation so you weren't as reactionary yeah yes um but that was a ah lie to me is like man i could be with anything like oh shit man my son throwing stuff across the room breaking windows i'm just like i'm so chill about it you know yeah yeah
00:29:54
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. You actually just touched on something I'd love to dig a little deeper on, which is the conversation around plant medicine. Broader kratom, that's readily available, legal in, I think, states.
00:30:09
Speaker
and but this let's call it a lie that a lot of men tell themselves that using plant medicine. Now, if again, if you've listened to my episodes, you know that psychedelics helped me rewire and heal my mind and put me on the path that has me where I am today. So I'll always be grateful.
00:30:30
Speaker
But there's a lot of men that abuse, quote unquote, plant medicine, be it kratom or any of this kind of new renaissance that's happening.
00:30:42
Speaker
And they're either chasing a new high, a new insight, the the verbiage of expanding your consciousness, all of that.
00:30:52
Speaker
Why do you think men lie to themselves to convince themselves that plant medicine is quote unquote, good, which there are good aspects about it.
00:31:05
Speaker
But really, what they're doing is they're either numbing, hiding, checking out, they're not being present with themselves or their loved ones, they're chasing this deepening of consciousness or whatever it may be, or, you know, being a better parent, they're they're lying to themselves using plant medicine as the justification to continue to engage in something that ultimately isn't what they want.
Personal Transformation and Plant Medicine
00:31:29
Speaker
Why do I think men do that? Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:38
Speaker
I don't know if this is specific to men. i think in general, people
00:31:46
Speaker
are, there's something about getting a new insight, yeah getting a new level of awareness, getting an aha moment.
00:32:01
Speaker
that that satiate this desire of us to
00:32:08
Speaker
to feel like we landed upon something. And what I've seen in my space and even with myself is
00:32:21
Speaker
because that's not the the thing that is it's not all of the thing that is necessary for a transformation that happens through integration application, um, to really making it yours embodiment.
00:32:39
Speaker
And that, that, that takes time and effort, um, intentionality and, Most people don't have the systems in place after these ceremonies to to be in this integration process. And so what in inevitablyably inevitably happens is that they go, oh, let me go chase that thing again to get that that satiation.
00:33:02
Speaker
yeah I've heard the term spiritual bypassing. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but this is that's kind of what I think. That's kind of what I think about when I hear that term. Yeah, I call it spiritual masturbation because it's not authentic. matter Yeah. but like yeah Yeah. oh yeah um Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Why do you why do you think?
00:33:27
Speaker
Why do you think men you know do that? Well, I think that you you hit on um a major thing. um I think we're really good at lying and convincing ourselves to justify wearing a certain mask that society expects us to wear as men, instead of being willing to authentically look at the reality of where we're at and where we're not. And i mean, what I'll often ask men is you know that are that maybe have fallen into this,
00:34:03
Speaker
is how's that working out for you? and And normally, not always, but normally, they're talking to me about their their challenges, or they're still feeling anxiety, or they just broke up with the girlfriend or they.
00:34:17
Speaker
And so they're not really grounded. They're not really happy. they're really good at sharing this revelatory experience or this ayahuasca journey or this whatever it may be, or this kratom that's helping them stay focused because you know, there's the uppers and the downers, or sleep better, like they they're justifying using something as essentially a s escape hatch for them looking at themselves with brutal honesty.
00:34:45
Speaker
Wow. Wow. Yeah. What's coming up for me when you share that, and this is in my own, I've heard it somewhere. It's it's this idea that if a tree isn't bearing the fruit that it's intended to bear, that you know changing out the leaves or painting the leaves the leaves on the tree will have very little impact on changing the fruit.
00:35:18
Speaker
Yeah. Or the lack of fruit that it's not yielding. It's when you yeah go to the spoil and dig in there and get that nourish and create the right environment through that piece, which is a little more challenging.
00:35:33
Speaker
It takes a little more time. yeah You talked about, you know it goes beyond the mask, right? That's when it's like, oh shit, mask off. Let's go in here.
00:35:44
Speaker
Let's see what's here so we can can cultivate the the environment that can bring about the fruit that I want to bring forth in the world.
Structured Approach to Personal Growth
00:35:54
Speaker
How do...
00:35:56
Speaker
Let's say somebody is listening to this and they're being challenged by the conversation, regardless of what they may or may not be using, or maybe even not even even using anything, but they're just, they're a tree with painted leaves.
00:36:09
Speaker
What are some things that you have either helped men do and work with, or, um, you know, practices that you're aware of, or that even helped you tend to the soil?
00:36:25
Speaker
So I have a process and I use that term loosely because oftentimes when I get into, uh, you know, coaching dynamics, the process just, it's like, you know, in real time, it's like, um, but, but our first step is in my program is called the rooted man. So there's, it's interesting. okay We're having conversation. Uh, but the first step is clearing the land. And I talked about that a little bit earlier.
00:36:53
Speaker
yeah
00:36:55
Speaker
the let's let's let's just glance at our world and see what is in our space that we get to clear out.
00:37:08
Speaker
What are we exposing o ourselves to that is an energetic drain that is
00:37:17
Speaker
in our soil, in our environment that we don't want there because it doesn't help us bring about our desired result. yeah And some of these things, um it's not as easy as just taking apart. But bringing in awareness first kind of helps. And some things are pretty easy at to shift from. But I've heard this from P, Preston, he has when he says, yeah we can't intervene in a world we can't see. And awareness precedes choice and change. But but clearing the land is is the first step in my process. And the second one is tilling the soil.
00:37:55
Speaker
This is really about inviting into our space things that are life-giving. things that help us work in.
00:38:06
Speaker
I think about nutrition, diet, rest. um And we think about things that bring us happiness and and inviting more of those things into our world. So we're we're starting to massage and nourish the soil, if you will, that internal environment.
00:38:28
Speaker
After that, we have plant the seeds. You know this is about getting clearly about what it is you desire in life.
00:38:38
Speaker
What is your dream? What is your mission? What is your call? And start to learn about those things. And what are your values? What are your personal code of ethics? um And then we move into a process that's called water the crops. Okay. You learned a little bit about or we learned a little bit about this in bridge with the line committed actions. Okay. What are what are the actions and behaviors that support what we're finding out, you know, as far as our calling and mission and our values and our dreams.
00:39:12
Speaker
And then lastly, we have a harvest because what I think is true is that none of it, it all matters. But I think to complete the cycle is it doesn't belong to us.
00:39:25
Speaker
I believe there is something trying to move through us. think about the four levels of consciousness, it's a, to me, by me, through me and as me.
00:39:38
Speaker
And so we start to realize that, whoa, something's operating through me because there's something that wants to be shared. And I get to clean my vessel so that that that messaging, that energy gets to move through me uninterrupted, unfiltered, without stagnation. And so part of the harvest part is like, how's that want to be shared?
00:40:01
Speaker
e Yeah, I think you just touched on a massive thing, especially for people that are in the beginning of that. And I love how you articulated that because I think that that really puts words to the process that you said you you said it yourself.
00:40:16
Speaker
It's harder. It takes more time. It's not easy. Right. But and and again, please hear me if you're listening. It does not mean that there's not value in plant medicine or in these other things. It's when you find yourself using them to using running with the metaphor, paint the leaves instead of till the soil or manage the soil to produce the fruit.
00:40:38
Speaker
But the thing that you touched on is Because I've been guilty of this, where it is why I think that a lot of New Year's resolutions don't actually last one because you're not working with the root of things, but two, it's, I'm no longer going to do X, Y, or Z, I'm going to I'm going to remove these things that are no longer serving me.
00:40:58
Speaker
And I'm essentially going to white knuckle and just hold on and see if it'll make me a better person. But, and and and my brother even challenged me at one point, this was a couple years ago, of I was wanting to challenge myself. And so I forget what exactly I was committing to, but he's like, okay, well, what are you gonna replace that with?
00:41:18
Speaker
Like, what, okay, great, you're removing something that you don't want. What are you going to add? You know, you're going to eat less sugar. Okay, then now what are you going to do in place of it when you crave that or when you want that or, you know, and that I think that's just such an important missing piece for so many people.
00:41:38
Speaker
to exchange what you don't want for what you want, be it an action in food in spirituality, whatever it may be. Because then you start to over time, tilling that soil, you build momentum in the direction you want to go, you don't just avoid and fight the direction you don't want to go.
Overcoming Addiction: Personal Experiences
00:41:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's beautiful. That's, that's Yeah, I like that.
00:42:03
Speaker
So it's, if you're listening to this and you're challenged by it, I think it's really important. You're like, oh man, you know what? After this conversation, I realized I need to come clean on Kratom. Let's just use that since we were talking about it.
00:42:16
Speaker
Okay. You want to remove that from your life, but what are you going to be adding? For me, it was community. You know, I i did a detox. Like I'm... still to this day have a tendency of lone wolfing of isolating of avoiding that's still ah an unhealthy go to that I find temporary comfort in.
00:42:37
Speaker
But and it was I'm telling you right now it was one of the hardest things for me to do. We have a a group chat of everybody that attended the bridge and extreme with Preston and Alexi and It was, i i had attended this and I was still even struggling with it when I was attending.
00:42:56
Speaker
And to do a video, was whatever, a two minute video of, hey guys, this is what I'm struggling with. I need your help. And I felt so much shame. i would not have recorded that video had I not had another friend challenge and encouraged me to do so.
00:43:12
Speaker
And even when I did, i sat in my car for 10 minutes before I hit record. But that led to the community. i mean, that led to this conversation that led to the community coming around me and me detoxing at a friend's house that led to so many other things that I had used the justification of I'm going to do it on my own.
00:43:33
Speaker
Right. But I was wanting to remove Kratom, but I wasn't adding the thing I really needed, which was connection. a Yeah, that sounds like a a way to like anchor yourself into the process of of shifts, of transformation.
00:43:53
Speaker
it's like yeah it's like It's like taking it another step. Yeah. how How do men self-regulate and stay anchored when the thing they're facing feels almost overwhelming in the moment?
00:44:10
Speaker
you
00:44:14
Speaker
I think the first piece is being aware of what parts of ourself, what yeah are are desiring the the behavior that's being,
00:44:32
Speaker
desiring the behavior that's coming through us. For instance, um I was coaching a guy earlier and I won't share specifics.
Tools for Responsiveness and Regulation
00:44:40
Speaker
but he shared with me that he's he's creating space between this part of himself that's, you know, desiring, you know, just real easy, temporal, you know, instant gratification.
00:44:58
Speaker
And he was he gave it he gave three aspects of himself that he shared. know, one of them, I forget the other one, but one of them was this like this this higher self, if you will, that yeah that was you know driving into his vessel what he ultimately wanted.
00:45:16
Speaker
And that behavior was completely different from this. And so what I think is having the tools that help men become less reactionary and more responsive.
00:45:33
Speaker
I love that word responsibility broken into two, which is literally response ability, your ability to respond. It's almost like is the thing choosing you or are you choosing it?
00:45:46
Speaker
And when we're in that place of choice, when we have that space, we get to practice trying to be in integrity with our highest self. I hate kind of using these high, low things because it kind of presents like hierarchy, which can then invite. How about true self? Your true self. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. That fits better.
00:46:06
Speaker
And then that's the game is is to make choices that align with the true self and to have compassion when we don't always do that.
00:46:17
Speaker
yeah And in it in these other aspects at some point too, what you know what I shared with him is that it's it's like they all have a seat at the roundtable and what may have been happening for this gentleman, and I know it's surely happened for me, is that all these all these all these aspects and psyches and you know inner child versions of myself we're just would just run to the head of the table. This is what we're doing.
00:46:44
Speaker
Next one would run at the head of the table. And it's like, the what I see happening here is like this this integrated, mature, embodied aspect of me is is at the seat of the table And now choosing, you know, where wherere to where to, now choosing who gets to have a seat at the table or it should be, and you know, happy folk bringing our attention and intention to all these different aspects in a way that helps us fill the line to the true self.
00:47:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. How do, if if a man is realizing just in general, you know what, I'm a dude with a short fuse. I just i just am And doesn't realize it's that inner child or those different aspects that are kind of running the show.
00:47:36
Speaker
How do they, and I know this could probably be an entire podcast series in and of itself, but what are some really practical tools that you've used or help others use high level that help transition from the reactionary to the responsive?
00:47:54
Speaker
ah So think, you know, i think nervous system and and sympathetic and parasympathetic people that run hot like that typically are in a sympathetic nervous system, which is that fight flight, ah you know, response. And so bringing in practices for them help help create more balance within the nervous system. So that would be, i you know, my, where I start is digestion, you know, just, you know, cleaning up their digestive system.
00:48:28
Speaker
ah Then I go into sleep and nutrition. you know, these are going to be more what we call yin principles, slowing things down, inviting more stillness into their world.
00:48:43
Speaker
You know, being more intentional with their breath, a lot of this is meeting the person too, with where they are. It's, it's, you know, as I'm sharing all this, what's coming in is like, yeah, these are all great. And you talked about it when someone stretches too much and tries to white knuckle something, it's like, they're likely, it's it's hard to keep up.
00:49:02
Speaker
It's hard to keep up. them What happens is you swing that pendulum all the way back and and like you're you're probably in like a ah more fortified place than when you started yeah because of that rebound effect. Um,
00:49:16
Speaker
But yeah, it's it's learning where they're at and then, you know, giving them, you know, meeting them where they're at and inviting more aspects that align with more yin principles, which are more slowing down, you know, more more more more parasympathetic nervous system regulation techniques.
Embracing Stillness for Clarity
00:49:39
Speaker
But that's where I would start. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite exercises that I give to clients that normally tends to spiral out more men than women, but also some women is to literally sit, find somewhere, a park bench, wherever, and sit for five minutes with yourself.
00:49:59
Speaker
Put your hand on your heart and just say, I give you permission to be fully present. And then like literally do nothing. Don't pick up your phone. Don't pray. Don't journal. Don't read a book.
00:50:09
Speaker
Just sit with yourself. And more times than not, that there's there's so much that has been suppressed for so long that that just comes rushing to the surface because ultimately we're we're longing to be seen in that way.
00:50:28
Speaker
But then when we are the ones that are blocking ourselves from feeling and from being and from slowing down, forcing yourself to do that even just for five minutes can be really challenging at first, eventually, you I don i don't know, but um I assume you but like, you look forward to it.
00:50:44
Speaker
Because learning how learning that to expand your capacity and be able to do more, you have to learn how to slow down in the midst of that. Yeah, yeah. do Would you do you think that in general, men
00:51:03
Speaker
men view that slowing down, stillness,
00:51:10
Speaker
as something that's not infected ah effective or that's not helpful or supportive for them? Oh, I've struggled with it. I've struggled with it. with my I mean, my wife is more of the, oh I love the slower mornings and cetera. And i'm I mean, I'm a former Marine, so I can be more militant with myself and have had to learn how to soften to myself by slowing down.
00:51:37
Speaker
But I mean, she notoriously lovingly gives me a hard time because when I'm sick, I'm like, all right, I literally say I'm sending in the troops as in vitamin C and, you know, elderberry, and I'm just going to take a bunch of stuff and we're going to kick this sickness's ass and we're just going to keep going. She's like, do you need to take a nap?
00:51:56
Speaker
Like, no. So I mean, I still fight that propensity to just push through. And I think there's value in that. And I think there, you know in our society, we've gotten softer and you should there is growth in discomfort. And it's not a pendulum swing from one extreme to another in that sense.
00:52:14
Speaker
But from finding peace and finding yourself and regulating your system, all of that, I think there is extreme value and need to do exactly what you just said, which is slow down.
Balancing Action and Rest
00:52:29
Speaker
Yeah. ah I'm reminded of the, the yin yang symbol and yeah you know, it's the, the, each aspect has a component of the other. And it's also, it's not like ah it's not a rigid line across it's, it's a flu because it's a dance.
00:52:50
Speaker
Yeah. It really, this it's, it really is a dance. And, um Yeah, I personally believe that each person has what I would describe as a core. And like, you know, for instance, there's people that have that desire, like a masculine core or like a feminine core. Yeah.
00:53:11
Speaker
But with that being said, I do believe that there's ah there's this dance that gets to happen through go and rest, movements, things. Yeah. We see it in nature.
00:53:23
Speaker
Yeah. And we are part of nature. We we are in nature. where're the you know So the the macro... The macro influences the micro. You find the macro in the micro and it's like, oh yeah, we we're we're doing that same thing in our own way.
00:53:38
Speaker
yeah And so tuning into that piece is, that's where it's at. that's where it's been for me and the minute I support. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I think men, it's not to say that men um don't have the ability to do that as easily. But I think that women that are in tune, like my wife, she's very into cycle syncing.
00:53:59
Speaker
And, and so there's a time of the month where it's kind of pull back and slow down. And then there's a time of the month where it's like, game on, we're going. and And so she has learned and teaches women how to do that dance and ebb and flow, where for us men, it has to be something that is a very intentional, I'm going to stop or I'm going to slow down so that I can go faster or go more or go bigger.
00:54:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you know, it
00:54:33
Speaker
are naturally more intuitive. yeah So being that they're more intuitive to existence, that natural rhythm and wisdom that comes with seasons and cycles is it's is's probably more available to them than guys who are more analytical.
00:54:51
Speaker
It's like, no, I'm trying to get here. Why the hell would I slow down? Like the object is to get here, go go there, go now.
Daily Habits for Inner Connection
00:54:58
Speaker
but Get there as quick as possible. Get there as efficient as possible. That's the that's the objective there, that, the destination.
00:55:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. ah what's What's one like daily or regular habit that you've learned to integrate into your life that's helped you slow down?
00:55:18
Speaker
Currently, breath work. And okay I just then just about two weeks ago, um trying to think of the app. Here it is ah Oxygen Advantage. It's been really helpful.
00:55:34
Speaker
um Okay. So it it has a five times throughout the day. it guides me through breath work and they're anywhere from five to 15 minutes.
00:55:47
Speaker
Okay. That has been like super helpful for me. Number one, it it creates
00:55:55
Speaker
just by having deliberate time where it's like oh i get to stop and be still. Yeah. So that's a big piece. And, you the health benefits of breathing deeply, slowing down the breath, you know, offers that regulation that I was speaking about earlier, where it's like, oh, you get to kind of, you know, regulate the nervous system in a way where you invite more of parasympathetic response to take place, which helps with yeah digestion and and you know restoration. it's it's a it it' It sends out an anabolic response in the body that creates...
00:56:36
Speaker
restoration, repair, all those types of hormones. Um, yeah. So although that's been really helpful. Um, I love the, the walks that I do. Um, I love, we have a dog and I take them for walks in the morning and in the evenings.
00:56:54
Speaker
Okay. And, uh,
00:56:57
Speaker
Yeah, that gives me space to be outside. Yeah. you know In the mornings, it's it's it's really still in our community. And depending on what season we're in, it's it's it's dark. But just feeling into that stillness, I think is really helpful. I really think there's a different charge in the environment when we're when we're outside of all these electronics and things. That's really, really helpful for healing.
00:57:28
Speaker
it's just allowing us to kind of, you know, sink, sinking down to more of a, a still slower space. Um, so those, the wall is,
00:57:39
Speaker
Well, and I you just hit on something that I think is really good, which is for a man who is a driven go getter, whatever you want to call it, that's go, go, go.
00:57:50
Speaker
And maybe as is rationalizing or justifying, yeah, I hear what you're talking about. But I'm not going to become a yogi that sits on top of a mountain for two hours a day, etc.
00:58:03
Speaker
With that app, what was it? Oxygen Advantage. Five minutes. You mean to tell me that in your busy schedule, you you don't take a shit for five minutes and play on your phone five minutes longer than you're supposed to, or you don't ever waste five or 10 minutes throughout your day.
00:58:20
Speaker
Even just taking that little bit of time, it can be a jump off point for you to begin to look deeper and to slow down. And so it's not a complete lifestyle change. It may lead to that.
00:58:32
Speaker
That's not the end all be all goal, but to say that you don't have time if you're if you're giving yourself that justification you may be the very person that actually needs to slow down and instead of being this overwhelming big task okay download oxygen advantage and take five minutes twice a day to slow down and breathe and just see what happens see where it takes you yeah um i'm reminded of uh quote And I don't know who shared it, but it it the quote is, all of man's problems are a result of his inability to sit in a dark room alone for a period
Modern Distractions and Personal Goals
00:59:18
Speaker
of time. and Okay, yeah.
00:59:21
Speaker
And right, yeah, but as I'm sharing that, right, first immediately like using the word all, it's like oh, red flag, red flag. you know i just Sure. I rarely try and talk in absolutes, but yeah.
00:59:32
Speaker
but it But yeah, you know, I think, and then there was another quote that said, we don't allow ourselves to be bored. Yes. And bored, there's so many ways for us to distract ourselves,
00:59:50
Speaker
to to to to get a quick dopamine hit, yeah to entertain ourselves. There's just, there's so many outlets for that. know, you pull up to a stop sign, a stoplight or a red light,
01:00:01
Speaker
You can grab this phone and for 30 seconds, get a quick little hope but dopamine hit. That feels good. You know, um there's just, there's a lot of, there's just a lot of ways for us to do that. And we get to ask ourselves, like for the man that you're talking to, it's like, at what cost?
Reflecting on Habit Costs and Behavior Shifts
01:00:19
Speaker
Yeah. You know, you asked the question earlier and we said, how's that working out for you? You know, and that's what we always get to circle back to is like, how does it support you and what you're desiring to create? Okay. Well, I, well,
01:00:31
Speaker
ah Well, i hear I work, I go, go, go. yeah i don't get i don't get adequate sleep. And then I wake up and you know I've got to drink four or five cups a morning to go through the day. Now I'm revved up. I'm easily triggered.
01:00:48
Speaker
I don't feel present with my family.
01:00:53
Speaker
My adrenal glands are just... Yeah. yeah my internal state is not at ease and when it's not at ease we give space for dis ease this is like what at cost it's a lot of it is just helping men understand like what this is creating for yeah that they may not be able to see or what's what it what it's leading towards And then with compassion and grace, it like, hey, okay, that's that's that's not what we're desiring.
01:01:23
Speaker
um and so then now what what do we get to do and how what what what what support can we set up so that we can shift into this new behavior?
Finding Clarity and Purpose
01:01:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:34
Speaker
If there's a man listening now, and let's say that he's, he's like, Yep, everything you just said, I'm doing or even one of those things, just beginning to realize that, or or maybe a different way of saying it is that he feels like something's missing, but can pinpoint what it is.
01:01:50
Speaker
What would you say would be the first step in unpacking or looking into that? the the thing that's missing, like helping a man get clarity about that?
01:02:03
Speaker
Yeah, if there's there's something more, there's I'm unhappy, or I'm grabbing my phone 10 times a day and can't live without it. like i'm just i'm I feel myself smaller than I can be, but I don't really know that first step to take.
01:02:20
Speaker
What would you suggest that be? Yeah.
01:02:25
Speaker
Besides meet with you.
01:02:32
Speaker
this the Yeah, the what's coming through me now is just an invitation for more stillness. And and yeah I know it sounds like your question is more about. It's less about like a technique. Is that what I'm hearing? It's less about like a technique. However you're hearing it. Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:55
Speaker
I believe that when we slow down, when we get stillness, it grants us access to internal wisdom and we can call that intuition.
01:03:06
Speaker
And we can start to hear that and get clarity around not just the things that we've been conditioned to think with the logical mind,
01:03:27
Speaker
not just the ideas around what success and fulfillment means that have been imparted onto us by our culture, society, our family, but instead you talked about, i love that term higher truth. It's like we get to give gain access to this truth about what, what success looks like for us looks like for us.
01:03:49
Speaker
What fulfillment looks like for us? what's What's our you know unique calling and mission mission? And through that clarity, then we why.
01:04:05
Speaker
We're anchored into a why. yeah and and and and And through there, we can start to build the support mechanisms to help us move into our our are whatever we're unraveling through this, you know, um this connection to that internal wisdom.
01:04:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Conclusion and Guest Connection
01:04:29
Speaker
Well, Javon, I've loved our conversation. I feel like we could go for another three hours without an issue. But I try to keep them around an hour just so that that's my my threshold as far as my my pace or my timing. But I always love to end with two things. One is um one massive, massive billboard and a billion people see it.
01:04:50
Speaker
What do you put on it? Hmm.
01:05:18
Speaker
You
01:05:21
Speaker
are the thing you are looking for. m Beautifully said. Beautifully said, my friend.
01:05:34
Speaker
Uh, and, and lastly is just how can people connect with you? Let's say that you work with mostly men, correct? Yes. Yeah. So if a guy's listening and he's like, man, you just read my mail. I, all this stuff, I, I need to go further. I don't know what that first step is. Okay, great. That sounds nice. Slow down, but I need help.
01:05:54
Speaker
And, or they just want to learn more about what you have to offer. Where can people find you? How can they connect with you? Website, therootedman.com. yeah And on I'm on Instagram and it's jvon underscore Eichner. Okay. Those would be the, yeah, the two platforms to get an idea of what I do and how I support people and also take stay tapped into my content.
01:06:23
Speaker
Okay. And then even, if even you know, those you can reach out to me through those platforms as well. Perfect. And obviously we'll put those links in the show notes as well. So don't worry about trying to spell everything right, et cetera.
01:06:35
Speaker
um Just check out the show notes and Javon. Thanks. and I know you'll be back. We'll dive into some more topics. I appreciate your honesty and transparency when it comes to the Kratom conversation.
01:06:46
Speaker
And I know that myself as well as a lot of other people are going to glean a lot from this conversation. Yeah. Thank you, brother, for having me on, man. It was ah good to connect with you in this way. Likewise.
01:06:58
Speaker
right.