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Leading with Heart: Emotional Health for High Performers - David Charlson | Ep. #68
27 Plays3 days ago
David is a serial entrepreneur. He has helped launch and sell two multi-million dollar businesses, worked in the mortgage industry, and was CEO of a pet-food company, WAG.
His passion, however, is supporting high-performers in being connected to themselves and their families, while excelling in their work. His clients have included one of the largest hedge fund managers in the world, a Grammy award winner, and one of the biggest marketers on the planet.
Today, we’re diving into something I know many of us wrestle with: staying emotionally grounded while leading at the top—whether you’re running a company, chasing big goals, or just trying to show up as your best self. David’s got this rare ability to blend high-level leadership wisdom with a heart that’s always on, and I can’t wait to unpack that with him. So, let’s get into it—here’s my chat with David Charlson, a guy who makes me, and hopefully you, a little better just by listening.
Key Takeaways:
- Emotional Health Starts with Authenticity: David defines emotional health as staying connected to your true self, not defaulting to self-protective patterns.
- Psychological Safety Drives Performance: Drawing from Google’s Aristotle Project, David emphasizes that leaders must model vulnerability—sharing struggles and ideas—to create teams where innovation and honesty thrive.
- Practical Anchors for Resilience: Under pressure, use "anchors" (e.g., inspiring quotes, memories) and "catalytic behaviors" (e.g., outdoor time) to reconnect with your authentic self quickly and consistently.
- Release, Don’t Suppress: High performance doesn’t mean ignoring emotions. David and Josh advocate facing inner critics—crying, shaking, or jogging through them—to emerge more present and powerful.
- Feedback Requires Filters: Stay open to feedback but test it against your "who"—your authentic identity. Surround yourself with "healthy mirrors" (trusted friends or coaches) to discern truth from distortion.
- Masculinity and Femininity in Balance: David redefines leadership as embracing all expressions—sensitive or fierce—without labels, creating space for business creativity and strength.
Links:
Host: Josh Cearbaugh
Website: https://joshcearbaugh.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcearbaugh/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshcearbaugh/
Podcast: https://www.multifacetedmasculinity.com/
Online Course: https://www.jumpstartyourlife.com
Guest: David Charlson
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
Today's episode, it's actually a lot of fun, or it was a lot of fun to have the conversation. It's with David Charlson, who he has been a coach of mine. he has been a close friend of mine, and he brings a lot to the table. He's a serial entrepreneur. He's launched and sold multimillion-dollar businesses.
00:00:21
Speaker
He's been in the mortgage industry. The list goes on, but really his passion is working with high-performing clients, helping them stay connected as well as achieving really good things and and juggling the balance of that, which sometimes, i don't know about you, but being connected and setting aside time for myself as well as chasing goals and checking off the to-dos, going to be tricky at times. And so we get into the weeds of what does that balance look like?
00:00:51
Speaker
And how do you navigate that in a successful way, staying connected to your authentic self while accomplishing and achieving really cool things? Not only this episode, but also upcoming episodes, we've got some really exciting guests that I'm chomping at the bit to share with you guys, but I don't want to say anything until we drop it. So be sure to subscribe if you haven't already.
00:01:19
Speaker
So that way you don't miss out whenever those guests come on. And without further ado, let's dive into the conversation of what does it look like to have healthy masculinity connected to your authentic self within the business world and or achieving really high goals that you may be pursuing.
00:01:40
Speaker
Men, we are not simple, chest-thumping, rock-smashing, fire-starting barbarians. We have death. We intensely feel. We are scared, yet brave.
00:01:53
Speaker
We love to have fun. We're imperfect and make mistakes. We're compassionate and loving. We are multifaceted. Let's explore the reality of masculinity together.
00:02:11
Speaker
Well, today, i feel like today's a special treat because ah for me personally, but also for people that are listening, because the the treat for me is anytime i get to interact with our guests today, my life is better for it.
00:02:29
Speaker
And i consider myself a wealthy man because of the friendships that I have. And he is in that inner circle of friendships that make me feel wealthy. And That is David Charlson.
00:02:40
Speaker
He's been one of my closest friends. He's been a coach. He's been a mentor. He's been stepped into the father figure role at times, the older brother role at times, just an all-around good man. i'm really excited about ah diving into the topic of what we're going to be discussing today.
00:02:59
Speaker
But without further ado, Dave, thanks so much for taking the time to be on the podcast today. yeah you're welcome. Thank you for having me, Josh. Yeah, absolutely. um So today, and and as we get into the the weeds of everything, we'll unpack more and more as to why specifically your passion and your qualification of working with executive level leaders, um whether that be in the business realm or you know if you're an entrepreneur, whatever it may be, but being that high performer, that high level executive, Dave, you you've
00:03:37
Speaker
you've managed to do that at the same time staying grounded and and more i would say even more so than grounded it's staying connected to your heart in the process of that um and and then leading from that place so with all that said i'm curious from your perspective how would you define emotional health just overarching emotional health from like as an executive leader, from that executive leadership position, what does emotional health even look like to start with?
00:04:12
Speaker
Well, I think the foundation of emotional health is is deeper and deeper connection to your authentic self. Like one of the quickest ways to, when you get knocked off center in any role, whether you're an athlete or creative or an executive, usually,
00:04:31
Speaker
the source of being off and feeling, you know, like your emotional health is off, like your thought patterns, your emotional patterns are off is usually because you've, you've, you're in some kind of default self protective pattern and it's because you've lost connection with your, with your authentic self. So it's, I like to think of what's the, and not not the symptom, but what's the source. and And I think for most part, that's the source.
00:04:59
Speaker
Sure. How, how would you define, cause I have coached this, et cetera, but for, from, for you, for your perspective, what is your authentic self?
00:05:11
Speaker
Like getting, okay. So you get off kilter from that. and understand that get back to that, but some men don't even know what that is or what that means or can't even define it. Well, it is elusive. And that's part of the problem. That's what makes it so difficult. And that's why people need coaches like you and I. Yeah.
00:05:29
Speaker
But I will say this. One of the quickest and easiest ways to diagnose or figure out, well, who who am I really? Right. Like, what is a real man? what's what's What's my truth?
00:05:41
Speaker
Is... Watch movies. it's It's going to sound like a prescription for escapism, but it's not. So when you're so when you're escaping watching a movie, you might as well make the time useful.
00:05:52
Speaker
yeah And so wi I like to say when you're watching a movie, which which character do you identify with? And which character do you kind of know that you are, but you wish you weren't?
00:06:06
Speaker
So the character that you identify with, it's the hero, the one that where you're like, yes, that's who I want to be. That's that resonates with me. um That's a clue of who your true self is. But the one that oftentimes there's a character in there that that has character flaws also, or even the main character might have character flaws.
00:06:24
Speaker
And when you identify with those character flaws, but it kind of makes you cringe, that's an idea of where some of your pain and what where some of your misalignment might be. But there's lots of ways. to It doesn't have to just be a movie, but it's paying attention.
00:06:41
Speaker
Yeah, go ahead. I want to stay on that because that's I've never thought of it that way, and I think that's fascinating. um But to to connect to the authentic self...
00:06:54
Speaker
In theory, I don't disagree with you, and I don't even disagree with what you're saying, but I can see you know at times when, just from my own personal life, when I, yeah as a teenager, when my family was falling apart, my my parents' marriage was falling apart, and I was in a lot of pain, if I watched a movie from that place, from that place of pain, i i would have, because i'm I'm a little bit more rebellious and um a maverick, and...
00:07:24
Speaker
I would have connected to identity or, or some of my identity could have very easily connected to the villain or to, because I felt, you know, justified, or even if it was wrong, he stood up for himself or manipulated people, et cetera.
00:07:39
Speaker
Um, so I guess the question in that is how do you distinguish? Cause in a, in a perfect world, I hear what you're saying. You want to gravitate to the hero and not to the villain. That's way oversimplifying what you're saying, but in it as in adjust, um,
00:07:54
Speaker
but pain can also cause you to connect to the villain. Does that make sense? Sure. Yeah, sure. So how do you distinguish that? Well, um, how do you distinguish if you're connecting to the villain or not?
00:08:10
Speaker
You know, usually so sometimes, sometimes you're in a distorted place and you don't know it. So, um, And when you're in a distorted place and you don't know it, youre you're going to get feedback from those in the world that love you. And then and then then then the trick becomes, how do I interpret that feedback?
00:08:28
Speaker
If the feedback is like consistently like, hey, you're off course, you're your're you're becoming the villain, ah eventually it catches up with you and and kind of pops you out of it. So, I mean...
00:08:42
Speaker
There are times where we get off course and I would say the the only advice I'd give is, you know, be open to feedback. There are times when you are the rebel and the maverick and you are in the right course and all the feedback you're getting is wrong because, but usually, but let's say you're breaking free from a crowd you've been a part of that doesn't want you to grow and you're you're now entering into know There's going to be new people in your life that you're going to want to get feedback from. And if you're on the villain course, if if several groups are giving you the same feedback loop that's saying you're off course, then you should listen to that.
00:09:20
Speaker
Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. you can't You can't see so who you really are. on it This is the paradox of it. To be who you truly are, you need to sometimes ignore feedback completely and just go for it, right?
00:09:33
Speaker
And at the same time, if you do that too aggressively, you could end up in left field and in ah in a spot where youre you're like, oh my God, I'm the villain. ah did yeah I didn't want to end up here.
00:09:46
Speaker
So it's and i think it's ah it's a dichotomy, right? Between pushing and being authentic, but also realizing that that you're always going to have blind spots and that your community is going to be The feedback loop that you get, you you you take it with a grain of salt, but you do need to be open to having feedback loop.
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah, that that makes sense. And I would say, yeah I mean, it's sometimes way overused in self-development spaces, but giving yourself grace because there there is an aspect of, especially if you've been suppressed, that that pendulum can swing, right?
00:10:21
Speaker
yeah And so if the pendulum swings in your exploration of trying to break out of something to give yourself grace when you catch that or realize it to then find your center in that pendulum to find a healthy path forward.
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think what we've just revealed right now is that the path towards authentic expression and being connected to your authentic self is a challenging one, right? I mean, just in the few minutes we've talked here, we're already we're already talking we're already talking about that the the the pitfalls and the traps and the, you know, and so to your point, what you're saying is grace and compassion for yourself is critical because you are going to get it wrong.
00:11:00
Speaker
You know, sometimes it's like feeling around in the dark. You're not sure. Yeah. Yeah. So within specific for, let's say that I'm, uh, whatever, a CEO of a company that has,
00:11:13
Speaker
50 employees, what is, yeah we're talking about healthy masculinity, right? So what does it look like to have, to to be connected to your authentic self, to the to the the hero, authentic self?
00:11:28
Speaker
um What does that look like within kind of the corporate environment?
00:11:35
Speaker
So, What I want to talk about in that regard is healthy vulnerability. So for instance, in a corporate environment, ah Google did a study and they they had certain leaders of teams. The study is called the Aristotle Project. It's a well-known study. They spent millions of dollars.
00:11:52
Speaker
So they found that there were certain teams within Google where the leaders, this is a very corporate environment, Google, well known. If you haven't heard of it, check it out. It's pretty cool. um But Google, they did this project and they're like, what is it about these teams?
00:12:10
Speaker
And they were studying it from all different angles. Like, is it certain skill sets? Is it certain combinations of skill sets? And what they determined was the number one factor, after spending millions of dollars is a leader that can create psychological safety within their team. Right. So if you're a CEO of 50, you've got to learn to develop the skill of creating psychological safety when you're leading meetings. and and And then they drill down into that. One is team members feel free to bring new ideas to the table.
00:12:39
Speaker
and and and at least have them considered, right? Like, hey, I think we should do this. But also there's a there's a safe space for that team member to also bring their struggles and their weaknesses to the team, right? To go, Hey, I know I've got this deadline. I'm really struggling. Who can help me?
00:12:57
Speaker
Right. That's psychological safety. Like I can bring new ideas. And when I'm struggling, i don't feel like I have to hide that from my team. I can just tell my team, Hey, we got a deadline. I'm part of it.
00:13:09
Speaker
I'm struggling. Right. So, so what does, what does a leader have to do to mop, to create that, to model that? Right. So number one, yeah, they that's a pretty much that's the punchline. They do need to model it. So okay and and healthy vulnerability is.
00:13:29
Speaker
Is modeling that so that that leader doesn't just welcome that from the team members, but that leader says, hey, I've got a new idea for the team. want to know what you guys have to say about that.
00:13:40
Speaker
um Or, hey, I'm the leader of this team and I'm struggling today. Like, you know, like, so honestly, it's, it's, you know, you and I've been part of different, different groups and communities. and And one of the communities we were involved with was men's group. And it was, hey, sometimes the the most vulnerable person in the room is the most powerful person in the room. So it's, yeah,
00:14:01
Speaker
So to me, the key to healthy vulnerability, which is what a leader needs to create that psychological safety is you don't have to share your deep, dark secrets and your your big, deep struggles with your team.
00:14:13
Speaker
and every but But you do need to bring your strengths to the team and you need to you need you you need to bring that humility and that vulnerability to the team, even if it's just being held in your heart.
00:14:25
Speaker
right And so it'll come out in the way that you and interact with people. If you come in you know, like armored up every time into a meeting, your team's not going to, not going to feel psychologically safe. Right. So it doesn't mean that you have to share everything with your team.
00:14:41
Speaker
That's the art form of it, but it meaning that, Hey, I, I, but you show up with an openness and a vulnerability and you, and you allow your humanity to be seen. And that's different in every situation and every circumstance. And there's a lot to dive into there, but that's, that's, that's kind of the high level look at it.
00:14:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So, so how would how would a leader, you know, because obviously, we're using just an arbitrary example of a CEO of a company with 50 people?
00:15:11
Speaker
um High level, get all of that. But the up armor versus being connected to your heart? What are what are some really practical ways that a leader can stay both both stay connected and grounded in their heart and their authentic self as well as just manage the the the very real pressures and stresses of that leadership position?
00:15:37
Speaker
Yeah. So number one, um you know I've been the CEO of a company for the last eight years. Recently, recently that or that we changed that. like now i Now I work for a private equity firm.
00:15:51
Speaker
so But okay when I was faced with that with with those pressures and that You have to understand when you when you're under a lot of pressure, your default performance self-protective mechanisms are going to go into to tilt. And you will you will likely armor up. You will likely lash out. You'll likely do something that isn't very, you know, you're going to make mistakes, right? You're you're yeah going to under pressure.
00:16:16
Speaker
So I like to, in the heat of the battle, I like to have a, ah i haven't I have an Excel spreadsheet that probably has no less than 150 of what I'm about to describe, but I call them, I call them anchors, right?
00:16:29
Speaker
Okay. So there's two things I'd recommend anchors and catalytic behaviors. An anchor, number one, an anchor is something that is a pattern disruptor. So I have a bunch of links to surf videos right write in my Excel sheet. I can get access to it.
00:16:45
Speaker
In five minutes, I can change my state and be back to being... kind of more chill, beachy Dave that likes surf videos, right? And that okay that is the authentic me. And that sounds kind of odd in the middle of the heat of the battle, but sometimes I need a pattern disrupt, right? Like I just need to like take five minutes and breathe and go, wait a minute.
00:17:04
Speaker
I'm not acting like me. So I i have certain certain writings, ins inspirering and quite inspiring quotes. I have video links. I have just phrases that I literally have written out who I am outside of any role I play. And I can read that and within a minute or two, it disrupts whatever crazy pattern is going off in me and makes me think that I'm bulletproof.
00:17:28
Speaker
It both inspires me and connects me to my humanity. all these all these so So number one, those are anchors. Those are things that just very quickly within a minute or two can link me to that.
00:17:39
Speaker
If I don't have access to a computer, I just have certain i have a file in my head of memories that of of like key moments in my life, peak moments, and also moments where I overcame adversity.
00:17:51
Speaker
And I just bring those to mind. So i have I have it built into my calendar. I'm so strategic about it that about every hour and a half, I have a five-minute break. That's all I do. I call it my who time. I just go, who am I?
00:18:06
Speaker
Who am I? Who am I? And then my key metric that I measure at the end of every day is what percentage of my day was I disconnected to myself and what percentage of my day was I connected to myself? That's a very subjective metric.
00:18:17
Speaker
Right. So number one, it's anchors. And then number two, i think you you really you really want to to to have. two catalytic behaviors that that ensure that you're gonna stay centered to yourself every day. So a lot of people listening to this may already have these and you just just need to be more intentional about them. So for me, if I go for a hike or a mountain bike on the daily,
00:18:44
Speaker
yeah I tend to stay in my center because the outdoors reflects to me. I'm very passionate about the outdoors. For someone else, it might be sitting in a corner and reading a book. For someone else, it might be meditation. For someone else, it might be getting a massage.
00:18:57
Speaker
But doing things that but that are propelling me forward, but they're they're making sure that my my body, that my mind, that my emotions, that they're getting grounded into who I really am. So...
00:19:12
Speaker
A lot of this stuff you might already be doing, and it's just ah it's just about realizing how powerful it is and how and how powerful connection to your true self is. And it's getting more intentional and and making them a priority, putting them in your calendar and not put and not letting too many days go by without executing on that. right it's It's no different than the key the key behaviors the key performance indicators in your business. Like you have key performance indicators and one of them should be is how often am I disconnected from who I really am?
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. i even i remember when you I was working with you, in the the coach you know you were coaching me, and you were working with me on this. And and just to speak, reflect back what you're saying in the sense of, um yes, it's not an exact KPI in the sense of how connected was I to myself. But if you're honest with yourself, you you get a sense of, yeah, I was really kicking ass today, and I showed i showed up or I didn't show up, right? Just a super simple example.
00:20:20
Speaker
So I showed up as 100%. I was firing on all cylinders, and I checked out and snapped at my wife, and what I didn't show up, it would be a zero, right? And you can get, oh that was 30%. I was 70%, et cetera.
00:20:34
Speaker
So it is fluid, but you you can gauge and measure that And then as you're as you said, the things that you do to keep you connected there, you can feel that percentage shift in the direction that you desire.
00:20:50
Speaker
Yeah. And sometimes even just writing an email could just be a very like confirming an appointment email, but you you can feel. that sounds like a really basic task that you could be having your worst day ever and still go, I'll see you tomorrow at 8 a.m. Like it's not a big deal, but you can feel when you're connected to that task. And when, and when, and when it's, when I'm disconnected from my true self, even the most basic tasks feel either, either dull or laborious or, or, or even, even just like, I might even have resentment towards basic tasks, which means that somewhere along the line, I'm,
00:21:28
Speaker
So you you can be writing doing something as simple as writing an email and just pay attention. You're still doing it. It's it's an awareness, right? this this is This is to stimulate awareness because you need to make course corrections.
00:21:42
Speaker
And if you go several days or several weeks, you could find yourself not showing up on a particular day because all of a sudden you have a quote unquote mental health day. Sure. Yeah.
00:21:53
Speaker
Which that that actually does bring up a ah question, which is, How do you juggle or how do you navigate? And I know a lot of these, we're kind of talking high level. And if somebody works with you, they'll they'll get into the weeds of all of this but because it's different for everybody.
00:22:08
Speaker
But at least I'll speak for myself. What has been hard in the past, and even as still I struggle with it at times now, is this whole... ah balancing act between being connected and, you know, identifying my needs and staying connected to my identity and all of that, as well as pursuing goals and doing the tasks, doing the things, right? So you you have...
00:22:35
Speaker
Because, like, I don't know, one extreme would be David Goggins, right? Fuck your emotions. You're an inner bitch. Tell him what to do. and just And he needed that. And that's his message. And I think a lot of times people that carry a strong message may may push a little bit harder in one direction in order to punch through the veil of what people are talking about to get that message across. And it's important.
00:22:58
Speaker
But how do you how do you maintain being a high performer, being a leader, being ah an executive, et cetera? So maintaining that high performance um And at times needing to essentially say, i ive I've got to send this email, I've got to schedule this meeting, and it doesn't really matter how I feel. I mean, it does, but I need to push through that or or acknowledge that I may be wanting to run or check out or escape or I'm feeling overwhelmed or whatever.
00:23:30
Speaker
to navigate you know not dismissing your heart or suppressing your emotions, being emotionally present while still maintaining a high performance, goal-oriented, task-driven individual.
00:23:44
Speaker
Yeah. So I build into my calendar margin for, and I don't mean I build it in like it's scheduled. Um, although I do have, I do have on purpose, I have margin in my calendar knowing that these things are going to come up. So, um, the irony is, is that, um,
00:24:06
Speaker
when you're When you're pushing forward and and hitting goals, and those goals are are are in alignment with what you want for the company, what you want for yourself, what you want for your family, you are putting pressure if you're gonna do it and stay connected with your truest self, there is automatically built in, it's as certain as gravity, you're gonna have to release some old constructs that have been holding you back, right? So okay rather than pretending that's not gonna happen or shaming yourself when it does, build in space for it, right? So I'll give you an example, like a really extreme example.
00:24:47
Speaker
I've been more consistent with my physical health than I've ever been in my whole adult life. And I've got a lot of trauma in my past, a lot, like more than most people. So I know that I i need to build in space for myself.
00:25:03
Speaker
and And oftentimes it doesn't take very long. So I made a commitment to myself and my training partner. I'm going to run every day for so many days. And one morning I woke up and it felt like something in me. I felt like a victim. i felt sorry for myself. There was just all these weird kind of unattractive emotions inside of me that I didn't, you know, when I picture Goggins, I'm like, Goggins wouldn't be doing this. go You know, like, so, but I'm like, but I am. And, and I'm not Goggins. And, and I know that Goggins also probably had moments like this.
00:25:37
Speaker
So I, my body was trying to stop me from running. So I crawled on my hands and my knees into my closet. And I cried as I put my running shoes on. It was like a little kid that was scared to do something that I knew as an adult wasn't scared. I'm just going to for a job. I'm not going to...
00:25:55
Speaker
not going to have drill sergeants yelling at me. Nobody's going to be, you know, it's it's just a jog. Yeah. But I crawled. And thank God, I was kind of glad no one's here to see this, but I i really wanted to make it out to the run.
00:26:09
Speaker
But I was releasing all that. Whatever was being released, I couldn't figure it out. I didn't stop to figure out it out. didn't journal. I just crawled to the door. I got outside, I stood up, I began to jog and within three minutes I was crying, crying and then the and then the clouds parted and I felt like I'd faced down some invisible bully inside my life. wow And I went, what just happened? What was that?
00:26:35
Speaker
So i to put it more in an executive standpoint, i I've been on the road, been invited to to meet with a buyer of a big retail chain, been scared, wondering if I'm if i'm prepared.
00:26:49
Speaker
I've flown to a different city. I, you know... i've I've dreaded the meeting because I just feel this sense of I'm not worthy enough for this. I don't know if I'm going do well, you know all that stuff.
00:27:01
Speaker
And I just cry in the parking lot. Right. Just release it. Cry, yell, whatever the emotion is, just be in touch with it. It felt terrifying. Like, I can't let myself go here right now. I need to be put together to be in this meeting. The irony was when I released, I was way more present in the meeting.
00:27:19
Speaker
I had a yeah much higher chance. So it's it's reprogramming this resistance. We all have this resistance to kind of let go of the old self so we could move into the new self. And so I think it's an openness and a willingness to to not run away from that and to face your own internal bully. There's a bully that wants to, there's an inner critic, there's a there's a victim, there's part that there's some part of us that It lives in us that repulses us no matter. And and honest, the the irony is the higher you up and you go in leadership, the more that stuff surfaces.
00:27:57
Speaker
And so to pretend to to to assume it's not going to happen is ridiculous. And to normalize it and then release it, it's the most liberating thing ever. it takes It's like a muscle. It takes a little while to get used to.
00:28:10
Speaker
um yeah But you can get really good at that. You can really look at that. and it's ah It's actually a very powerful trait attitude to have. and ah and an attitude to have I love that. I i actually just ah recently did a it was a back to back weekend event on it was a lot of somatic work, which was essentially the short version intentionally triggering you and then teaching you how to move through that.
00:28:39
Speaker
Right. It's yeah that's taking five, 12 days of training and putting it down into a sentence. Right. But it's a lot of what you just described.
00:28:50
Speaker
But interesting, five days of training because you're really – you do have to have to find ways to train yourself to do that. So get into different – get into places where you can practice this stuff in a safe place, right? like Yes. Five days of somatic training or or get into into therapy or get into whatever. you know like Yeah.
00:29:09
Speaker
like looking for ways to, to, to disrupt the patterns that, that caused the stuff to damn up and begin to learn how to release it. So, and there's, so, I mean, yeah, somatic stuff. And like you said, I mean, there, there was a moment that, you know, we, we did this exercise and then kind of what we did afterwards is circled back and did kind of popcorn. This is what came up for me or whatever. And we were sitting there and all of a sudden I started just like,
00:29:38
Speaker
physically, violently shaking, terrified, because it was basically we were sharing what we didn't want other people to know about us. We were saying that out loud and then breathing through that and releasing that and and letting that go. Right.
00:29:52
Speaker
And I shared something. It was honest. But then sitting there, I was like, actually, a lot of times I feel like a scared little boy. And that's what I really don't want you to know about me.
00:30:05
Speaker
And my point in all of that is I, you know, I stood up, I shared that. And i I mean, it was even hard. My my jaw was shaking. I was quivering. I felt terrified to let people see that part of me.
00:30:18
Speaker
Right. And but I released it. Right. I let that go and then did some breath work and grounded after that. But kind of like your run.
00:30:28
Speaker
I felt so free and and not only validated because i was loved in response to that insecurity that I had, but I felt like physically felt lighter and more present.
00:30:42
Speaker
Because one, i faced that thing, kind of like you crawling and putting your shoes on. And then two, pushed, like released it and pushed through it. And on the other side, it's, it's a lot like going to the gym, right? You don't want to go to the gym. You go to the gym, you work out, you're like, I feel so much better because you've physically obviously moved your body, et cetera. But emotionally you can do that too.
00:31:05
Speaker
Yep. it's, it's, it I mean, for lack of a better of analogy, it is it is learning to emotionally work out and build those muscles. And,
00:31:19
Speaker
and you know, to not, I mean, it when you're in a ah non-triggered state, it sounds great. Like, of course I'll do that. yeah Well, when you're the person that's being triggered, just know that
00:31:36
Speaker
it's good you can do it alone but you do need to find at least two or three people yeah um where you can let your guard down and even if you go through it it's helpful to have a few people witness it and give you feedback because it it's it's not it's not something that i recommend doing alone you know yeah it's the old saying even the c it's old saying go ahead sorry Oh, I was just going to say the old saying, people hurt people ah hurt you and people will heal you, right? like Yeah, exactly.
00:32:09
Speaker
I mean, the people that go through BUDS, the Navy SEAL training, they always say that the lone wolves don't make it through. their they're They're like bulletproof. You can't make it through BUDS without without other people, right? you got You got to carry a boat with people. You got to do things that are really hard and you aren't going to make it on your own.
00:32:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. um
00:32:35
Speaker
i am curious like This is a curveball kind of out of left field, but I'm curious of your thoughts on this. Because I've been ah've been weighing this for myself just it in relationship, but because of our conversation today within the realm of um kind of the executive realm and the business world.
00:32:56
Speaker
There's all this conversation around masculinity, femininity, right? And I'm not going to get into like the cultural debate around that. But specific to our conversation, um,
00:33:09
Speaker
how does it If I'm a grounded, connected man that is a leader, what does it look like to make space for the healthy feminine within the realm of business? Because what I feel happens a lot and what I've seen is that a lot of times...
00:33:31
Speaker
women who adapt to or embrace more of the masculine are the ones that are promoted or recognized or, you know, move through their career.
00:33:43
Speaker
And that oftentimes, the feminine, which is, it's creative, it's chaotic, it's beautiful, it's, it's all of that, but it's, um it's necessary to have both.
00:33:55
Speaker
What does it look like to to be a grounded, authentic man, male leader in the business environment um in a way that makes space for the feminine in a healthy way?
00:34:13
Speaker
You know, the older I get, so the more going to say something. i
00:34:22
Speaker
i i've been missed I'm a heterosexual man, but I've been mislabeled as gay right because I have some quote unquote feminine characteristics. right like cast I've been called a sensitive man. i've been called You're just not like most men. or you know I've been friend zoned a lot you know like because it's like...
00:34:41
Speaker
um especially by women that probably are attracted to toxic masculinity in a way that's actually not healthy for them too. So not labeling.
00:34:52
Speaker
So I think I've just stopped labeling those parts of me. you know I have not, I don't even think of myself as feminine or masculine.
00:35:03
Speaker
i I coach a lot of young men and there's there's this burning question is am I a real man? Am I a real man yet? Like there's, think about, we all crave approval from our fathers, you know, as men. It's like, and so my answer to that is a real man is you become a real man when you're a real man, you when you, when you just stop judging and categorizing any part of yourself and just go, this is my most authentic expression. And is it going to have some feminine traits?
00:35:35
Speaker
Heck yeah, it is. Is it going to have some, some super, i mean,
00:35:41
Speaker
I could, and in certain moments, a woman, you know, ah a wounded woman could label me as a toxic man. You know I finished a triathlon. I'm just like, yeah, they're like, Oh my God, that guy is scary. Right. Yeah. I am scary right now. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm pumped. I'm jacked. I just, I just ran a triathlon, you know, like yeah damn straight. I'm going to, I'm going to growl and, you know, like, <unk> yeah, yeah. And then there's other moments where, you know, I'm, you know,
00:36:11
Speaker
quote unquote, crying like a little girl, you know, same same guy, right? Like, look at that guy. What's wrong with that guy? He's crying. He's watching a Barbie movie with his daughter and crying while he's eating popcorn. What's the deal with that dude?
00:36:23
Speaker
You know? Yeah. but So I think not to oversimplify the answer, but it's just, again, just to go back to how we started the call, like,
00:36:38
Speaker
make room to to to just have these expressions happen. And then you get to decide via your own filters and the feedback that you're getting, like, is this an authentic expression or is this some distorted version of of my of my authenticity?
00:36:56
Speaker
And, you know, there's a lot of programming. There's a lot of there's a lot of reason to to to shrink away from a certain expression, but... you know i i'm I'm proud that I watched Barbie movies with my daughter and cried with her. I'm i'm not ashamed of that at all.
00:37:13
Speaker
Now, I'm also, there's other times though where I've really been a coward and I've quote unquote called it my feminine side, but I was really being a coward. you know What do you mean by that?
00:37:24
Speaker
I mean like, um what's the right example? you know what, I'm just going to stay home and take care of myself today and really just afraid to go to work. Right? Like, hey, I'm just going to take, like, it's a fine line between self-care and cowardice, you know?
00:37:44
Speaker
Ooh.
00:37:47
Speaker
There we go. Now we're getting to the meat of things. So, you know, and, you know, the day goes by and then I do a debrief the next day. I'm like, oh crap, I wasn't doing self-care. I was being a coward.
00:38:02
Speaker
So how do you know the difference?
00:38:06
Speaker
Great question. um
00:38:11
Speaker
Sometimes I don't.
00:38:16
Speaker
But hindsight is 20, 20. So, you know, I just I just stay in that honest assessment place. And, you know, i and I'm also open to feedback from the people that are closest to me. So, you know, my wife has called me out on it a few times, you know, like, hey, okay are you what?
00:38:35
Speaker
this is your third self-care day in a row. What's going on? What are you actually caring? are you actually caring for? You know? Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:46
Speaker
And, you know, of course, when I get called out like that, I can be really defensive. I'm like, well, you don't understand. Like I've got this infection and I, dahdadada you know, she's like, okay, well, you look like you could,
00:38:57
Speaker
you look like you could at least function at a basic level. Like, I think maybe you've taken this too far. So ah number one, it's just, again, being open to feedback. And number two is you start to feel it in your gut. You just, there's this guilt, you know, there's a, there's a knowing that you're misaligned from your authentic self.
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah. I'm all of a sudden I'm outside the hero story and I'm either in the villain story or the coward story. I'm in one of those other stories and they, you can feel it when it creeps in. It's like, Oh, crap. I did it again.
00:39:28
Speaker
You know? Yeah.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yeah. How do you, speaking of feedback, how do you,
00:39:38
Speaker
how do you gauge gauge is probably the wrong word.
00:39:47
Speaker
Like getting feedback from either too many people or the wrong people can lead you in the wrong direction. ye And obviously, you know there's you could say feedback is online criticism. That's easy to dismiss. I don't know them.
00:39:59
Speaker
I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about people that you know um or or even let's let's keep it in the business realm. but You've got a manager that is that is not connected, that is not in a healthy place, and that feedback is...
00:40:19
Speaker
Either one, just not accurate or two, manipulative or controlling, etc. um And I've seen people that will take that in and then and then wrap that um either manipulative or or broken or dysfunctional feedback and wrap that around their identity.
00:40:37
Speaker
and then kind of lose themselves within their job, right? they They want to be authentic, but because they're open to feedback, it creates a double-edged sword where that openness to feedback actually causes them to kind of lose their identity. So the question in that is, how do you how do you navigate which feed, like it's it's an awesome quality, it's a leadership quality, it's it takes courage, all of that's true to be open to feedback, great.
00:41:05
Speaker
How do you know which feedback to actually take in and take an honest inventory of what needs to change? Great question.
00:41:16
Speaker
um Again, i'm going to be a little bit like a one track record, but yeah, like you've got to double down on your who a lot. So and interestingly enough, one of the most strategic things that I see that keeps you connected. So that feedback always needs to be tested against your authentic self. Well, if you don't have a decent idea of who you are, if if you're still somewhat in flow about who you are, you're going to get tossed around by that feedback.
00:41:44
Speaker
Right. So I, I often prescribe for my executives, like intentional recreation as like, it's one of the fastest ways I know to get into that, you know, that authentic place.
00:41:59
Speaker
Um, Because when you're hanging out with your friends that you let your guard down with, you naturally feel safe and you you self-express and you get to experience yourself with people that love you and care for you.
00:42:11
Speaker
You also, when you're hanging around with people that... So you have to surround yourself with people. Your manager at work, you may or may not be able to control, at least in in the short term. Right. So you've you've got to regroup and get around people that know you and see you and go and vent and go, this manager is telling me this. I think there's some truth at it, but it's really confusing the crud out of me.
00:42:33
Speaker
Yeah. Got to find healthy mirrors. Right. Like people that can mirror back to you. And it. And a lot of us don't actually have that. Like it's taken me years to and I don't I sometimes don't want a group of healthy meers because I want to stay in denial. Right. So sure.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yeah. and When you have those great friendships, it's like, yeah, I don't really want to talk to them because I kind of like this little hiding thing I'm doing right now. Yeah. So it's it's it's being intentional, finding the right community or the right group of friends or whatever. They're going to give you the kind of feedback that you feel in your gut is helping you grow.
00:43:08
Speaker
And if you've got people that are in your life that are by role and design, giving you feedback because that's their role and they they're, they're a manager and they need to give you that feedback. Yeah. You can, you can have a good, healthy place to go vent that off and sort through every manager though. They're giving you feedback. Even if it's really distorted and toxic, there's good data in it.
00:43:33
Speaker
That's a good point. You creating a healthy,
00:43:39
Speaker
you the I'll put it this way. The human condition is we are in constant conflict all the time. There's tension every single day between authentic human expression, really expressing who you are and conformity.
00:43:55
Speaker
And you actually need conformity too, because we are tribal. We are community. we we do We do things better to groups. So conformity isn't the enemy. Right? Yeah. like But but but conformity at the expense of authentic human expression is and when you're a kid,
00:44:14
Speaker
you you're in a family group and your very survival depends more heavily on conformity. When you become an adult, conformity becomes less necessary, but you have some old patterns where authentic human expression can feel like I'm not going to make it.
00:44:30
Speaker
I'm going to be breaking bonds with my family. and so Really what we're talking about here with executive emotional, it really boils down to in a lot of ways, how do I navigate my old patterns of conformity that no longer serve me, replace them with new patterns of conformity that do serve me?
00:44:47
Speaker
and then And then how do I continually authentically express and grow and grow and grow?
00:44:54
Speaker
And honestly, I think a lot of emotional health issues, depression, anxiety are literally the root is we we're we're not navigating that well. We're still stuck in some old conformity patterns that we're that that that don't serve us anymore.
00:45:12
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. I've never really heard it put that way. And that's I think you hit the nail on the head on that one. I was thinking of that the healthy mirrors. We have a ah mutual friend, um Blair, and I was a healthy mirror for him. we used to all three of us used to live in California together. And he he would he said to me a few times, he's like Josh,
00:45:35
Speaker
I literally want to throw my keys at you and hug you at the same time because I feel so exposed by what you're saying to me. so like i I want my responses. I want to hide from this or reject it or push it away. And yet the the deeper part of me loves being seen and called out and celebrated and loved in that way.
00:45:55
Speaker
So it if you're if you want to punch somebody and hug them at the same time, they may or may not be a healthy mirror. it just an indicator. Well, I just have to brag on you. You've done that for me as well. I remember specifically in a hallway where a lot of us worked.
00:46:09
Speaker
I remember walking in that hallway and telling you something and you just went, can I tell you something? And I wanted to punch you and hug you at the same time. Like, why why did I say yes to that? Why didn't I just say no and tell him I'm busy? Why did I why did i let him speak into my life?
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. um All right, well, we do need to wrap this up. But I do one question I was asked. I've asked it to you before, but I'd be curious to see if it's changed.
00:46:38
Speaker
ah You get one billboard. One billion people see it. What does it say?
00:46:47
Speaker
it says two words. it says reveal yourself. Oh, that was not what you said last time. I think it was love yourself last time. yeah I remember correctly, but reveal yourself.
00:46:59
Speaker
The most exciting and terrifying thing you can do in life. Yeah. There's a Latin phrase. I wish I could remember the Latin cause I would sound so smart, but I can't, but it's, you can, you can, you can interpret the Latin, but it says it's, it's, it's so simple. It's, it's, it's a, it's a mantra that I try to live by. It's like, I want to be rather than to appear.
00:47:22
Speaker
Like, yeah, when I do triathlons or I go to these events, there's all these people with their gear, and their Lycra, and they've got their garments and they've got everything. And then you see them out there. You're like, you're like, a you're just barely starting. why Why did you invest so much in the gear? Why don't you just, you know, and then there's other people that are like stripped down. They've got like.
00:47:41
Speaker
ragged shorts and they look like they're and they're and they're the ones that kill it. like it's's okay It's interesting how much energy we go into appearing. Now, I'm not against that because truthfully, sometimes looking the part and feeling the part can help you enter into it. But sure there's a sometimes it's just better just to be than to appear.
00:48:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, well, Hey man, thank you so much for, for this conversation. I know that I've, I, every time we talk, I glean things from it. You're one of my healthy mirrors. I so appreciate you.
00:48:16
Speaker
Um, you know, if, if people are prompted by this conversation or, ah maybe even feel challenged by it, but don't, like you said, maybe they don't have those mirrors or they're a high performer and they're in that position of leadership where,
00:48:32
Speaker
ah you know They're the CEO. They're the ones running the show. So they don't they may have some friends, but they they got to hold together that company, etc. um Where can they find you, possibly work with you, learn from you, glean from you beyond just this podcast?
00:48:49
Speaker
Best place is executiveemotionalhealth.com. Okay. Exactly. if If you know how to spell executive and emotional, put those two words together, executiveemotionalhealth, all one word,.com.
00:49:01
Speaker
There's a course on there called The Catalyst. It's a three-week course that would really prime the pump. we It's self-guided. It takes three weeks to complete. it It will really give you a good solid foundation. and then there's several ways to go deeper on there. I do that.
00:49:16
Speaker
I'm doing that with with my partner on that, Blair Reynolds, who we mentioned on this call. So that's probably the best place to go. And I will say this, regardless of whether it's me or Josh or anybody, you you need...
00:49:28
Speaker
Most likely, most people in this call need to, from time to time, if not regularly, pay somebody to give you that mirror space. like not Even though I have mirror friends like you, I still very often pay people because when you pay someone to do that for you, you're getting undivided attention and you very rarely in life have that one-sided place where you can just say it all and have someone reflect back to you. So if you're not doing that or if you haven't done that, I would also recommend doing that.
00:49:58
Speaker
like yesterday. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And obviously, and the all the links and everything will be in the show notes as well. So um whether like Dave said, whether it be me or him or anyone else, I like I said, just a month ago, I was in a two weekend event with 100 people in the room. And it was super intense, like the the process doesn't stop.
00:50:21
Speaker
And going at it, like you said, as the lone wolf, more times than not will lead to failure. so right. Well, Dave, thank you so much. I love you, man. I'm glad you carved out the time to have the conversation. I know people are going to glean a lot from it.
00:50:35
Speaker
Right on. Thanks, Josh. All right. We'll see next time. See you.