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Dave Charlson - What is Healthy Masculine Vulnerability... and so much more. | Ep. #59
129 Plays1 year ago
Today is special… because today you get to hear from the man who has helped me navigate life's challenges more so than any other man. The one and only David Charlson. He is the person I turn to when I feel stuck, overwhelmed, sad, or proud. He is my personal and business coach, as well as a dear friend.
I’m confident you’ll be able to grab some nuggets of wisdom from our conversation that can fundamentally improve the trajectory of your life if you’re willing to implement them.
Dave has over 24 years of business development experience. He was a mortgage banker for 16 years He has spent the past 10 years developing products for the pet industry and has created, branded, and established sales for two products that have generated 16 million in revenue He is currently CEO & President of North American Sales for Authentic Sales LLC, his pet product sales and marketing company that imports WAG dog treats from Australia and distributes them nationally in the US and Canada.
Dave is also CEO of Authentic Coaching Inc, a coaching company dedicated to helping leaders significantly increase performance and fulfillment through the power of Authentic Alignment. Dave is all about creating safe places for businesspeople to be vulnerable and real about their struggles and brokering the truth of heaven in exchange for their limiting beliefs and fears. He does this by attracting God's presence with his dedication to an extreme joy-filled vulnerability and boldly sharing radical testimonies. Dave also coaches a select group of executives across the United States.
David is happily married to his wife Michele and has 4 children ages 27, 21,19,& 17
In this episode you'll learn:
- What does healthy masculine vulnerability look like?
- In what ways does vulnerability impact relationships?
- Why do we fight so hard to hold on to unhealthy internal paradigms? (and how do we change them?)
- How to stay grounded when things feel chaotic or overwhelming.
- How to stay strong in your identity and open to other people's spirituality.
- In what ways do Christians use Christianity to avoid taking responsibility?
LINKS:
Host: Josh Cearbaugh
Website: https://joshcearbaugh.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/joshcearbaugh
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshcearbaugh/
Online Course: https://www.jumpstartyourlife.com
Guest: Dave Charlson
Website: https://davidcharlsoncoaching.com/
Conversation about Shame: https://vimeo.com/198274840
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Personal Connection
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's conversation is with someone that is near and dear to my heart, and I don't say that lightly. This man is not only a friend, he is also the man that is currently my coach in life, but he has helped me navigate some of the darkest times of my life
00:00:21
Speaker
He is one of a very small handful of men that I contribute to the reason why I'm still here, meaning he helped me come back from the brink of suicide when I literally thought there was no other way out.
00:00:36
Speaker
And it was his friendship, his love that helped me navigate my divorce, helped me navigate some of my darkest times. And now I'm not in a dark, dark place, but I am continuing to evolve and grow and be challenged. And so.
00:00:52
Speaker
David Charleson, today's guest, is a man that I've chosen to trust, but every time I've chosen to trust him, he has reciprocated that choice of mind by being a person that walks the fine line of, you hear all the time, be a safe place for people. And I'm all for that, and I'm a huge proponent of that.
00:01:14
Speaker
but he's a safe place for me and someone that challenges the hell out of me doesn't let me just sit still, not because he thinks that I am falling short, but he helps me see more of the good in me than sometimes I can see in myself.
00:01:34
Speaker
So today we dive into topics like spirituality and what does that mean? And how do you use spirituality to help you anchor into the man that you are meant to be? And other topics like unhealthy paradigms. Why is it so hard to let go of those sometimes? And even though they may be self-destructive, they're really freaking appealing.
00:01:56
Speaker
in certain ways, amongst other topics. And so if you haven't already, I would encourage you to subscribe just because we have some really exciting guests. Obviously today's, he's also the first guest that is now the first guest that is the second time that they're appearing on this podcast. So if you haven't listened to that episode, I would highly encourage you to dig through the archives and listen to that.
00:02:20
Speaker
And lastly, leave your comments, leave your feedback, leave your reviews. I read all of them and I take them all deeply to heart because I want to talk about the things that, yes, I have some idea, but the topics that you guys really wanna talk about, I wanna lean into those too and get guests that care about the topics that you
Encouraging Listener Engagement
00:02:42
Speaker
care about. So leave a review, good, bad, and different. I don't care what it is. I just wanna hear from you.
00:02:48
Speaker
You can either send an email to Josh at Cierbach Consulting or just leave a review on Apple, Spotify, wherever it may be. Um, just let me hear your thoughts. I would really appreciate it. It means a lot to me. Helps me navigate and guide this podcast in the direction that it's not only helpful for me, but also ultimately helpful for you. So without further ado, let's dive into the conversation with David Charleston.
Exploring Masculinity and Vulnerability
00:03:13
Speaker
Men, we are not simple, chest-thumping, rock-smashing, fire-starting barbarians. We have depth. We intensely feel. We are scared, yet brave. We love to have fun. We're imperfect and make mistakes. We're compassionate and loving. We are multifaceted. Let's explore the reality of masculinity together.
00:03:40
Speaker
So more people that I've talked to more and more or the more that I've talked to people, the more I've realized that every good coach needs a good coach to be good at what they do, which sounds.
00:03:53
Speaker
basic and simple and yet you'd be amazed at how many quote unquote gurus are leading people but they're not anyone lead them. And today's guest is my coach. He's also a close friend of mine. You've actually heard of him if you've been following me for a while. He was a guest on the podcast earlier. So this is his second appearance. But you have a handful of few friends that you really consider lifelong friends and you feel privileged to be able to have them as a friend.
00:04:23
Speaker
Our guest today, David Charleston, is that for me. He's part of that core, that inner circle, that confidant that I have in my life that I feel that all men need and is invaluable. We're going to dive into some of the reasons why that's invaluable and why you need it. But without further ado, let me introduce you to the infamous David Charleston. How's it going, David? Good. Good. It's good to be here with you, Josh.
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's all true. It's all real. You know, I, I have a, I have a very small group of people that I kind of have no filter with. And what I have found in our friendship and in you working with me is that that lack of filter that I have, you've always met it with compassion at the same time.
00:05:16
Speaker
Compassion met with challenge, and I think that the unique blend of those two is a fine line to walk sometimes, and you've done it impeccably in my opinion. I've said to you, what did I say to you years ago? You don't know how to not do life well, right? Yeah, that one, I use that one when I start to doubt myself. That's something I used to ground myself, that saying that you said over me many years ago.
00:05:44
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, that was probably what, eight, nine years ago now. Eight, nine years ago, you said that and it stuck. It stuck. Well, I actually I want to start.
00:05:55
Speaker
the conversation in a little bit of a different direction because of where I want to end. And so to slightly pivot and kind of change things, I'm curious, and we're going to kind of build on some of these questions that I have for you. And I know some of the answers, but I think that my listeners will get a lot of value out of your take on things.
Defining and Practicing Spirituality
00:06:19
Speaker
but I wanna actually start with spirituality. And a super, super basic question, yet something we could probably take three hours with is, so don't take three hours, but what does spirituality mean to you specifically? Well, I think that for a good part of my life,
00:06:48
Speaker
the five senses pretty much dominated my reality. I was more of a materialist. I think a pretty, pretty, pretty much like 80% of the way I did life was materialistic. Okay. The five senses. Can you test it? You know, I got, I got a degree in math. I was raised by a dad who is, was pretty much a staunch atheist. Um,
00:07:14
Speaker
But I was having spiritual experiences when I look back. So to answer your question, I think a very broad definition of spirituality is things beyond the five senses. Okay. I'm curious for you. You said that that phrase that I said to you years ago kind of helps you stay anchored, but how does your spirituality help you be anchored in your identity?
00:07:44
Speaker
Um, well, the way that I practice my spirituality is I have a phrase I call the third space. It's like right now I'm on a podcast with you, Josh Cierba. So it's
00:08:00
Speaker
I can see you. I can hear you. I believe that's you on the other end of the screen. You might be a bot. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure you're a real Josh. If you are a bot, you're doing a very good job at botting. So kudos to you. AI is getting scary these days. I'm going to ask some secret questions of you to make sure you're not a bot. I'm going to figure this out here before we're done. Yeah.
00:08:20
Speaker
So, so I'm, I'm paying attention to me, right? Like I'm paying attention to what's going on my head, what's happening in here. I'm paying attention to you and looking at your body language and looking for nonverbal cues from you. And I'm being sensitive to, Hey, what's happening with Josh? We're on a podcast. Um, in some sense, I'm even aware of people that are listening right now, even though I have no idea who they are, who they're going to be, but I'm aware that this is being recorded and that many people that I don't know will hear this.
00:08:48
Speaker
Um, but I'm also aware of so that all that would be first and second space stuff. Okay. Third space is I'm aware that there is a presence on this call. That is part of all of us. And if you can imagine a Venn diagram where every person we're talking about is a circle.
00:09:05
Speaker
and all of us overlap, like something I say or something I express or something that someone sees in my eyes or sees in your eyes, they might go, that reminds me of this thing about me. And then there'll be an overlap there. Their circle will overlap with our circle and they'll be the ones that say, that's something that I resonate with. I believe on this call, from my spirituality, God is sitting there, the Holy Spirit is sitting there waiting
00:09:33
Speaker
for somebody, you or me, or even someone listening to notice what's happening where we all overlap, where you and I and every listener and a higher power of being a source, the universe, whatever, there's unlimited potentiality that's sitting just waiting for someone to hit that spot where it benefits everybody on the call. So that's, I call that the third space. And my objective is to
00:10:00
Speaker
when you talk about how do I anchor, I feel a sense of life and excitement in me when I tap into that and I trust, I'm looking to tune into that to create the maximum amount of benefit for everybody that's involved in anything I'm touching. So long answer to build up to that, but it's that overlap space. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting to me that, because I love the way that you articulate that,
00:10:28
Speaker
And at the same time, I guess to share a little bit of my story that is one of the reasons or one of the many reasons why I consider you such a close friend is when I was going through my divorce and I was going in my journey with plant medicine, with psychedelics, I began to question my spirituality and it began to get challenged. It grew, it evolved, it grew, it transformed
00:10:59
Speaker
But in that process, I lost a lot of friends. I lost a huge chunk of my friends, and some of them were what I considered some of my closest friends. And for you, and the reason why I'm asking these questions about your spirituality is because you didn't let my journey and my process within my spirituality
00:11:25
Speaker
shake our friendship. It actually, the way that you responded, it drew me closer to you. I felt more safe with you. I felt more seen. You still shared your opinions, your thoughts, your beliefs, but you also didn't try to
00:11:43
Speaker
redefine or force a definition of spirituality onto me. And so I'm curious within that, because I love that breakdown of kind of that third realm, which I agree with. But when it comes to, because
Navigating Evolving Spiritual Beliefs
00:11:58
Speaker
Let's be honest, right? There's a lot of division these days and a lot of that division. I mean, you can pick your poison, but some of that division, sometimes even within families, comes from seeing spirituality in a different way and and believing something. And sometimes that the other person's beliefs challenge the other person's core beliefs. And so they get triggered or respond, et cetera. So within all of that,
00:12:28
Speaker
Um, what I'm curious to hear from you is how, because I experienced you navigate it with me personally, but I don't think I've ever heard you articulate. How is it that you, you have your core beliefs, you have your spirituality, it anchors you in your identity.
00:12:45
Speaker
But how do you stay strong in that and yet still be okay with and open to other people's spirituality that may take a different shape or form? You even said it yourself. It may be God, universe, whatever it may be. You're okay with those kinds of things. What helps you toe that line or not be offended by other people's spirituality and what form that takes?
00:13:12
Speaker
Well, I mean, one of my best friends is Satanists. So, and I'm a Christian. So let's, let's go down there and I'll go down that road. Right. Like, please do explain that a little bit. Right. Okay. So, uh, Nate, a neighbor and, uh, we, during COVID, everyone's hanging around home. So he's, uh, he's out. Uh, sorry, my computer here did something. Sorry about that. It's okay.
00:13:42
Speaker
It's fine. So he's, you know, out working on his motorcycle and I say hi to him and we run into each other. And we're like, Hey, when this COVID thing calms down, let's get together. It seems like we keep running into each other. And he's a tatted up dude with dreads and rides motorcycles and seemed really interesting to me. I'm like, seems like a cool guy to hang out with, find out what his story is all about. And
00:14:07
Speaker
Anyways, he found out pretty quick. We taught spirituality, he found out he was a Christian, and then the next time we were together, he's like, well, I just need to let you know, because I know your beliefs now, and I don't want to play pretend he's with you. I'm a Satanist, right? I'm like, okay. Now you'd think, I think he was waiting for me to go, okay, well, we're done being friends now. Like, you know, Christians and Satanists aren't allowed to hang out together, right? I mean, that's just the rules. You can't do that. I said, well, what does that mean to you?
00:14:35
Speaker
I wanted to know what does that mean. So my first thing was I think I instinctually went to the third space. I didn't take his label to mean anything other than, well, I'm curious. That makes me curious. What does that mean? He's like, well, I don't worship Satan or anything. I didn't even ask him that. I'm like, okay, so you don't worship Satan. Okay.
00:14:54
Speaker
What else does it mean? He goes, well, I believe in self-responsibility. And a lot of the tenants of Satanism are about self-responsibility. I'm like, okay. So he laid out like everything. I go, I think we agree on about 90% of everything that you just said. I can't think. And the other 10%, I don't know. Like maybe we're polar opposites. Let's keep hanging out and find out. So I don't know. I mean, that's kind of anecdotal what I just shared, right? But, um,
Friendship with a Satanist: Lessons in Responsibility and Forgiveness
00:15:26
Speaker
I, I believe a lot of Christians, myself included use Christianity as a way to not take responsibility for ourselves. So I kind of like having him as my friend, because I can learn a lot from him about being more responsible and not hiding behind my faith as a way to be a crappy human being. So I like having him as a friend, because he challenges me on that. And
00:15:49
Speaker
And I think he likes me having me as a friend, because I'm, I'm more into grace and forgiveness. And I challenge him on that. Okay, extreme responsibility is doesn't leave a lot of room for grace and forgiveness. And yet, he's exposed, I won't. I mean, he's had some pretty, he had a daughter that he hadn't talked to for 17 years.
00:16:12
Speaker
Um, because they had a falling out when he was younger and he had not forgiven himself for some of the ways and he respected her wishes. And one night on my patio, he chose to forgive himself. Wow. I think violated some of his tenants that he operated by. I think I don't know that for sure. Yeah. But the next day she called him and the next day she called him and they reconciled within like a week.
00:16:36
Speaker
So holy cow. And he came up to me the next day and he goes, what, what the F what the, can I cuss on here? Oh yeah. Yeah. Go for it. Is this podcast? Oh, he said, what the fuck? It's totally fucking okay. Yeah. And, um,
00:16:52
Speaker
And then we've just had a bunch of really, really cool experiences. He's basically told me, dude, like we need to go speak and like literally like be a roadshow together. Like the Christian and the Satanists show up at the TED talk. And so, I don't know. I mean, Hattie said, I worship Satan and I worship the dark Lord and I curse your house. And like if he intended me ill will, I wouldn't have been friends with him, but he's one of the most loving people I've ever met.
00:17:21
Speaker
one of the most accepting people I've ever met. He, he, I think would give me the shirt off of his back. Like he's, he's a great guy. And just because he calls himself a Satanist, if I'd stopped there, I would have lost out on a great friendship. If I'd just, you know what I mean? Or if, or if I'd, if I had said, I'm going to be friends with you, make you my new project, right? Like you are the person that needs to be saved. So I'm going to,
00:17:47
Speaker
I'm going to be syrupy sweet with you. And I'm going to kind of give you that. Nicely judgy look that the Christians can give people. They don't agree with, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I could have done a bunch of stuff that would have been very off-putting to him too. And he could have chosen not to be a friend with me, but I'm like, I want to learn from this guy. And I think we're pretty much, I think at this point we're like 99% the same. Like it's gone from 90 to 99. So why am I worried about the 1%?
00:18:14
Speaker
If my belief is so much about unconditional love, then why would I not line up with that? Why would I choose anything other than unconditional love? And I find zero reason to self protect with him. I feel safer around him than I do some of my Christian friends. So there you go. Yeah. Wow. That'll blow some people's paradigms.
00:18:39
Speaker
Um, I hope so. I hope so. Well, so let me set a foundation. This is not going to be bash Christianity podcast. I promise that, but I am genuinely curious. Like you said, you were curious about your, your neighbor, uh, for you in your experience, I have my opinions, but in what ways do Christians use Christianity to not take responsibility?
00:19:05
Speaker
Well, I think the most cliche one is the devil made me do it. You know, I was just under attack. I, um, I, um, or they, they really are judging someone harshly. And like, what's, what's the right example here? Well, there's, there's that whole saying, um, hate the sin, but love the center. Right. Yeah.
00:19:29
Speaker
like hate the sin I hate that sin that thing that you do that I am so certain is black and white that you are going to hell if you don't change your ways like that kind of sin. Yeah, you know, I hate that but boy I sure do love you. Oh my gosh, I love you. I love you. And there's no gray and there's no it's just and usually
00:19:52
Speaker
I mean, even the Bible itself contradicts itself. It's full of huge, profound truths that appear to contradict each other, right? So usually when someone takes that, so they'll hide behind, I hate the sin. I'm not answering your question. Your question is how do people not take responsibility?
00:20:14
Speaker
Well, they don't take responsibility for their own self righteous judgment. That's us versus them. And they do it for this for the in the name of I'm gonna hate that sin but love the center. And it comes across as nothing but judgmental. It doesn't come across in any way, shape or form as
00:20:34
Speaker
help me understand, or my particular way of seeing this might, it might be okay for that to be challenged. So you're not taking responsibility at all for the mandate of Christianity, which is to love the world, to be Christ-like, and Christ came to love the world not to judge it. So one way to not take responsibility for your own fearful, self-righteous judgment is to come up with a phrase like that. Well, I love you, I just hate your sin.
00:21:03
Speaker
Well, if that's not sincere, a person can feel that, and they will definitely want to distance themselves from you. It's just not... That's one way. That's probably, yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. What can somebody do about that?
00:21:17
Speaker
If they're listening right now and they're like, you know what? Guilty as charged. I actually don't want to use that. I don't want to use Christianity as a means of escaping or playing the victim. The devil made me do it or being judgy, et cetera. I mean, there's an old Saturday Night Live. We passed it around, I think, when I was in Reading and where it was the just stop it, right?
00:21:41
Speaker
Yes. The lady came and said, I'm afraid I'll be buried in a box. And he's like, OK, just here you go. Write it down. Just stop it. You know, other than that, it's about.
Struggling with Vulnerability
00:21:53
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, that's easier said than done. I mean, if that if we could just stop it and knock anything out of our life, then, you know, then David Goggins wouldn't be motivational. Right. But
00:22:09
Speaker
Practically speaking, if somebody is realizing, you know what, I kind of am, or if their husband or wife is or whatever, what's some ways that they can kind of shift that? I mean, I think you alluded to one instead of be judging, be curious, right? Like what you did with your neighbor. Excuse me. Are there any other ways that they can kind of check that at the door and not be so easily offended?
00:22:37
Speaker
Well, if, if, if you know the Bible or even if you don't, there's a really great analogy in the Bible about when you're trying to get the spec out of your friend's eye, why there's a huge plank in your eye. Yeah. Yeah. So when you find yourself sitting in the judgment seat, you can feel it. It feels really good, but usually
00:23:02
Speaker
I would say almost all the time, what you're doing is you are externalizing your own inner turmoil. And, and it feels really good to notice the spec and the person the person that you're judging. But what you're really doing is avoiding the plank. So I would spend more time when you find yourself judging pause, if you can find a way to pause or even debrief with yourself after you've done it. Yeah. And go, Okay, what's what's the plank in my eye that's driving this?
00:23:33
Speaker
why does this person infuriate me so much? That person is most likely gonna be, you don't have to be best friends with the person that you're judging. There might be something about them where you're not supposed to be close friends with them, but think of that person as possibly your greatest teacher, the person that infuriates you.
00:23:53
Speaker
there's something that their way of doing life or being is provoking and creating a release of the inner turmoil that you still haven't settled within yourself. So take it, take, see if you can go back to the moment where you found yourself ready to judge
00:24:14
Speaker
and trigger trace back. When you're triggered, you find that emotion, you go, okay, when was the last time I felt enraged like that? Oh, wow, it was just five years ago with this person and then go back. Well, when did it happen before that? If you can trigger trace back, often you'll learn something about yourself. And you'll busy yourself with learning about the plank in your eye instead of obsessing about the spec in there because it's a great way to not take responsibility for the plank in your eye.
00:24:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is exactly what my Satanist friend taught me. I think that kind of tees up the direction that I want to take this because, you know, when I was thinking about this, this podcast, I was trying to think of some of the ways that I know you have gotten to know you and the strengths that you have. And as far as looking at your own plank and, and trigger tracing and, and kind of.
00:25:14
Speaker
becoming, not navel gazing, but introspective in the sense of being able to start to look and analyze yourself honestly. In my opinion, that requires a degree of vulnerability, even if it's just with yourself, to look at the underbelly of you, right? To take off that mask and to start to look at what's going on internally. What does healthy masculine vulnerability look like to you?
00:25:46
Speaker
Well, um, great question. Healthy masculine vulnerability. Um, it looks like well, number one, it's compassion without complacency. So to me, masculinity has a leaning in aspect to it. It has a, um,
00:26:12
Speaker
Here's a perfect example like – I'll give this – this is a great example of healthy masculine vulnerability. So our cat – there was a storm here in California and our cat took off, a brand new cat that we rescued.
00:26:27
Speaker
This is my first pet that I've had that's my own and forever. I love this cat. I've fallen in love. Everybody in the shelter loves this cat. It got its jaw busted. We nursed it to health. It's the coolest cat ever. And a storm's coming and he goes in and we let him out, but we usually bring him in at night and he just took off and a gnarly storm came. And I just didn't have a good feeling about it. I had a feeling that he's just going to take off and I'll never see him. So we've got a green belt outside of our house.
00:26:57
Speaker
And I just went into full on like masculine, like search and rescue. And I went out there and looked for them. There's storm drains around. I was just pretty convinced that I was never going to see him again. It was just a gnarly, gnarly storm. High winds. Okay. So anyways.
00:27:16
Speaker
I was triggered, uh, because of loss of previous pets. I was overreacting. People might say, well, that's kind of an overreaction. Your cattle come back. Don't worry about, well, I was overreacting. I was full, but I was out there charging the field, being a man, hopping fences, bruising my stomach, traipsing through stuff. Like I was being a man, you know, and like, and I'd tell my wife, don't worry. I'll find the cat. I'm going, I'll bring this cat back and cause she's upset. Right. Um, then.
00:27:42
Speaker
Then the next day, I had a Zoom call I was on, and I needed to be strong and be masculine. I was going to be speaking to 15 people in a leadership role. And the group that was on the leadership group, I got really vulnerable with them. And I told them, hey, I am still really emotional about my cat. My cat's still lost. And I just shared a piece of that and asked them to pray for me. And they did.
00:28:08
Speaker
And then I returned into the leadership role that I was. I run another company. I had an investor meeting that day where I had to have some loans, loans modified, and I needed to talk to my investors and I needed to be strong and masculine. But prior to that meeting started, I told them, Hey, I'm here. I'm glad to be here with you guys. I just need you to know I'm upset about my cat being lost right now.
00:28:35
Speaker
Okay. Right. And I just continue to let, and I got to decide who I shared that with and who I didn't, but I did continue to be authentic with this piece of me that was hurting that I couldn't resolve and I wasn't going to show up and completely. Now, if I had not told them that I still could have held that.
00:28:52
Speaker
that weakness in my heart, that sense of, it felt like a disproportional reaction to a cat being lost, right? Sure, sure. And then when I got the call from the neighbor, because our cat was lost, and he was lost all day, and he finally showed up at someone else's house, because I think he was disoriented, and I got a call, I picked up the phone, and I cried like a, I cried, I ugly cried, after I hung up with the phone with the person that said, hey, I found your cat. And I released whatever that emotion was, I know it wasn't just about the cat.
00:29:23
Speaker
I didn't hide it from my wife. I didn't hide it with my leadership group. I didn't tell everybody that I was leading the call with, hey guys, just to know I lost my cat. It really wasn't appropriate for that space. I could have made it appropriate. But I feel like if I were to boil it down, it's every man or person that has masculinity in them, which I think all of us do to some degree, some higher percentage than others.
00:29:48
Speaker
So every person that goes, hey man, what does it look like for my masculine part of me to be vulnerable? And I think this applies to feminine vulnerability too, but I won't go there because I identify way more masculine than feminine. I would say it's always keeping the wounded part of you, the vulnerable part of you with you and not completely disconnecting. How much of that you decide to expose any moment? Up to you. It's an art, not a science.
00:30:18
Speaker
What toxic masculinity I believe does is shoves that pussy part of us into the closet and says, get in the fucking closet and shut up, you little pussy. I'm gonna go be a man. I don't know any man that does that, that doesn't end up being a fucking train wreck. You know what I mean? Because that part of them that they've shoved in the closet forever comes back to bite them. And even Goggins will talk about that part of himself.
00:30:47
Speaker
Even David Goggin himself, I believe, does a masculine vulnerable. So what does it look like? It looks like keeping a relationship with the young wounded parts of yourself that are still healing, that are still and having compassion, but without complacency, don't use those parts of you as an excuse to not move forward into your destiny as a man.
00:31:10
Speaker
or if you're not a man, just to move forward into your destiny. Masculinity, the best thing I can think about masculinity is most men or when you're being masculine, when you're raising kids, you put them on your little pouch and they're facing out.
Vulnerability as Courage
00:31:26
Speaker
And when you want to nurture them, you bring them in. So it's like that part of you that just is looking out and looking forward going, I'm going to go out into the world
00:31:35
Speaker
And I know it's going to provoke the wounded, unhealed parts of me. And I'm not going to hide them for myself. And I'm going to choose who I share that with, but I'm going to remain connected to my weakness and the parts of me that are still healing. So it's probably a long answer, but that's the best one I got.
00:31:57
Speaker
So it's a great one. I, I often tell my clients that, you know, we, because a lot of times I agree with you and then the follow up question is, well, how do I do that? And why don't I stay connected? Like what's so scary about staying connected to that vulnerable part and.
00:32:16
Speaker
For a lot of the guys that I work with, you know, we, we grew up in a certain environment and let's say that our dad didn't show us vulnerability or connection or emotion. And the only emotion they saw was rage or anger, those kinds of that dynamic.
00:32:31
Speaker
Well, a lot of times we grow up, we leave the house, and then we, even though maybe our dad abused us, or maybe it was our mom, but we leave the home and then we basically pick up that parent mantle and start to treat ourselves the way that we were treated. So emotionally disconnected, emotionally unavailable, that kind of thing. And so it's a journey of beginning to re-parent yourself
00:32:59
Speaker
in ways that you weren't parented or where they fell short to maintain that connection to that inner child, that softer side, that vulnerable side, however you want to describe that. Yeah. Yeah. Easier said than done, but. Hey, look, I suck at vulnerability. I mean, people call me the vulnerability guy and I suck at it just as much as anybody else. Cause it's, it is a messy, challenging,
00:33:28
Speaker
It's called vulnerability because it feels really vulnerable and it feels, it's, yeah, it's not, it's not easy, which is why compassion was the first thing that came out of my mouth. Because as you embrace that journey, you need to be patient and compassionate with yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Which is something that, which can feel kind of feminine. It can feel kind of wussy. Don't, don't tell me to be compassionate with myself. I don't like that.
00:33:55
Speaker
It can and yet I think if all of it, if I'm honest with myself, I mean, this is something that you're still working with me on, right? It, it feels easier at times to not be compassionate and yet that when I get it from my wife or I get it from my daughter or even my son or just myself, I crave that. I'm longing for that. Even though it feels before I give that to myself or before I receive that,
00:34:22
Speaker
it feels like a waste of time or unproductive or whatever it may be and yet my heart's craving for it at the same time. Can you have true intimacy without healthy vulnerability?
00:34:45
Speaker
well, I guess first one to define true intimacy. I mean, intimacy, my favorite kind of taking that apart is intimacy, you see, right? So can someone really see the whole you if they don't get to see the parts of you that make you feel vulnerable? Like I don't think, if intimacy, so first of all, I think true intimacy is a very black and white term.
00:35:13
Speaker
What level of intimacy is satisfying to you? I would say, I would say, can you have satisfying intimacy? You know, I have a lot of friends and I, I kind of think, well, they're pretty happy with a level two and I'm not going to force the issue and try to make them be a more intimate person than they are. They're on, I think it's a gradient and I think some people crave intimacy more than others. I think some people.
00:35:40
Speaker
experience intimacy different ways. First of all, the word true intimacy provokes me a bit to go, well, what is that? And if you're constantly pursuing true intimacy, you're always going to be falling short. So I think decide what level you're comfortable being seen at. And if you feel like you want to go a little further, then get a little more vulnerable. Just tweak it.
00:36:05
Speaker
Yeah. Don't, don't sit there and judge yourself and go, well, someday I'm going to experience true intimacy. You're going to be on that hamster wheel the rest of your life. Yeah. It's a fine line, right? Of, of what level of intimacy you're comfortable with. And yet it requires vulnerability, which is oftentimes uncomfortable to gain a deeper level of intimacy.
00:36:28
Speaker
Yeah. And then there's times when I don't want deeper intimacy and I want to check out and I want to, I want to watch. I love watching space launches, which, you know, I love, uh, I mean, you got, you're there in Texas and not far from there's Boca Chica. I'm, you know, that's a good reason for me to move to Texas right there, just to go hang out and watch us watch legal on must shoot off rockets. I don't know. I mean, is that intimate? If someone's into it with me, I suppose, but.
00:36:57
Speaker
There's just, you know, I used to just, I think, you know, you can, the reason people don't like being vulnerable is because people that are really into intimacy beat them
Manipulative Vulnerability and Judgment
00:37:12
Speaker
over the head with it. You don't talk to me enough. You're not vulnerable enough. There's a bunch of, you're not enough, enough, enough, and there's not enough accepting people where they're at and inviting them into, if you're the person in a relationship that seems to be better at intimacy,
00:37:27
Speaker
don't beat your partner or your friend over the head with it. Like accept the person you're trying to relate to where they're at and accept them where they're at, man. Like, I feel like it's a new quest and it's a new way to measure. I mean, in some masculine movements, like, Hey, the most vulnerable guy in the room is the most powerful guy in the room. Well, now we've got a new way of measuring ourselves against each other. Great.
00:37:53
Speaker
So then you get people up there gutting themselves unnecessarily and probably shouldn't have done it at the time they did it. And now there's this, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like, I feel like vulnerability and intimacy is such a personal journey that we should be real careful with each other, not, uh, and, and, but at the same time, it is hard to have a satisfying life with some level of advancing and vulnerability and intimacy.
00:38:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I find that, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this as well, but oftentimes, not always, this is a generalization, but people that are beating the vulnerability drum
00:38:41
Speaker
Now, not someone like Bernie Brown who's dedicated their life to it, but in the sense of making you feel bad because you're not as vulnerable or really wearing their heart on their sleeves, those kinds of things that those people tend to actually be chasing intimacy through vulnerability more so out of a fear of abandonment than a pursuit of love and connection. Well said.
00:39:10
Speaker
Yeah, I've, as I think I did that and probably still do to some degree, you know, I have, I was abused. I was abandoned. I was rejected. And I think, I think I did kind of use it once I understood what vulnerability is. And I had some language around it. I use it as a weapon.
00:39:35
Speaker
Yeah, it's people that I wanted more intimacy with to try to manipulate them into being more intimate with me. Yeah. Yeah. It's a real convenient, convenient. Yeah, that's really well said, Josh. I like that. And very few people will will quote unquote call you out or make you
00:39:55
Speaker
take responsibility for that reality, right? Because why would I make you feel bad? Because basically, if I'm being vulnerable with you, well, I'm taking that high ground. I'm the one taking that risk. I'm the one that's opening up my heart and exposing myself to you. And so if you call me out on the fact that I'm actually afraid of abandonment, then that's just you trying to not be vulnerable, right? It's easy to flip that script and to use that as a means of manipulating and getting connection.
00:40:27
Speaker
It's like a frantic thing. When, when, when I would be vulnerable to the point where it was frantic, where it was like, you know, like grasping, I just, if I'm just more vulnerable right now, yeah. And it would have that element to it. It's like, I'm vulnerable. Therefore you must be vulnerable right now because I have chosen to be vulnerable in this moment. Yeah. Everybody's in the mood to be vulnerable at all given moments, you know? It's true. Try to get me to be vulnerable when I'm, you know, like.
00:40:57
Speaker
Like I said, watching a space launch and someone says, how do you feel about this? I'm like, it's awesome. I like rockets. I like how powerful they sound. Like, why do you like that? I don't know. Leave me alone. I'm enjoying it. Yeah. Totally. I don't want to talk about my feelings right now. I just want to watch this rocket take up.
00:41:13
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I know in my own journey with just helping people and exploring my inner world, I tend to, I'm getting more balanced as I get older, but my tendency is to be all or nothing with things.
Advising Appropriate Vulnerability Sharing
00:41:28
Speaker
And so when I was in the Marines and growing up, showing emotions, that was shoved down, everything you're talking about.
00:41:35
Speaker
And then when I burnt myself out and then I started meeting with people and exploring vulnerability in this inner world, then I went all into that. And and the other side of it, I wasn't necessarily chasing connection, but what I found was then I fell into that judging place where I'd go to a party and I'd meet five new people and I'd leave the party and be like, oh, well, he's not vulnerable. He only knows how to talk about sports. He only knows it. And I would dismiss a lot of relationships that I think potentially could have
00:42:03
Speaker
become great relationships had I not used their level of vulnerability immediately as a measuring stick of their depth or what they have to offer in a relationship or in their life. So I think that, that eases in with relational equity and with time that you, you know, work on that vulnerability with someone as they, as you take that risk and they show they can meet that risk, then you can continue to evolve and go deeper with that then.
00:42:33
Speaker
Will said, yeah, you know, even Brene Brown got challenged by a guy once. I remember her telling the story where she'd really done her TED talks, like she'd done two, she was touring, and a guy came up to her and said, hey, love what you're doing with women, but what about the guys? She's like, well, what do you mean? He's like, you're not talking about guy vulnerability. She's like, well, sure I am. He goes, no. He goes, my wife and my daughter over there, the level of vulnerability, if I got that vulnerable with them,
00:43:01
Speaker
They couldn't handle it because I'd have to get off of my white horse that they love to see me rescue them on. And they literally would rather see me die out here alone. He goes, men are out here alone and you're not giving this away to connect to it. And so I have experienced that in my relationships where I chose to go
00:43:24
Speaker
I find I can be vulnerable with guys first, kind of as a first wave, and then go to my wife with the second wave.
00:43:32
Speaker
But if I go to her with the kind of vulnerability that a guy could actually handle, yeah, and I go to her with it, I think it short circuits our relationship. So I think it's going to be different with every guy, girl, girl, girl, guy, guy. I'm not talking about traditional. I'm talking about know who you're building relationship with. Yeah. And know who can handle certain levels of your vulnerability. And when you notice them,
00:43:56
Speaker
not being able to do it, don't keep trying to force it. That person is trying to tell you, I'm not comfortable with your level of vulnerability right now. And if you try to keep forcing it, you're going to get hurt and they're going to get hurt. Yeah. Right. That was massive. Yeah. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say for me, we're both excited. Okay, go.
00:44:20
Speaker
Oh, I was going to say that was that I'm excited because that was some some of the more profound advice that you've given me in my within my marriage, just because I'm set aside the like the level of vulnerability. I'm a verbal processor. Right. And and so my wife, I I feel safe with her. I love her. I trust her. And so I would verbal process with her and I still do.
00:44:46
Speaker
But certain things, you know, we, we are learning our differences and, you know, we've only been together for a couple of years. And so we're still figuring out what works well and doesn't work well. And I remember talking with you where we kept tripping over this thing where I, you know, it's like, Hey, I'm just sharing, honestly, like I'm, I don't, I don't remember. I actually don't remember what the conversations were, but you know, I'm, I'm really.
00:45:10
Speaker
Terrified right now that our finances aren't gonna be okay and that triggers her and then that puts her in a state or whatever that wasn't it But it was you know things like that we're coming to you and I go hey I'm terrified that you know and and kind of getting that off my chest and verbal processing that out and Then coming to her and be like, oh, you know I had this conversation with Dave and I have these moments where I'm really afraid about my finances, but I
00:45:33
Speaker
Overall, I actually think that we're going to be OK, but you know, and so I can still be vulnerable and still be real. But that first wave, like you said, especially for somebody like myself, it's a verbal processor to get that initial raw off my chest is setting us my marriage up for success to not always do that with her. I love that.
00:45:58
Speaker
Yeah. And oftentimes, you know, if let's use the example of finances, you know, since you and your wife are both impacted by each, each other's views on finances and beliefs and decisions you guys make. I mean, it affects each one of you because you guys are together for you to tell me about that. Um, it's, it's a lot less, I'm not likely to get triggered by you telling me about that because sure.
00:46:26
Speaker
don't share, you and I don't share a bank account. So yeah, yeah. So it's really bizarre, vulnerabilities really bizarre, because you think, okay, well, this is the person I'm supposed to be the most vulnerable with this person I'm married to, or the person I've committed my life to, I should probably always be the most vulnerable with them. And yet, that isn't always true. Yeah, sometimes first wave, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's so much an art form and not a science like that. I don't
00:46:54
Speaker
I'm sure somebody's got a formula out there for it, but I'm not sure it'll, the vulnerability formula really works. Well, we'll just wait for you to write a book. Yeah. I'll write a book. I'll write a, but actually I'll do a, I'll do a 20, 20 level course that it takes you. There you go. $10,000 for a level, for each level you go up and gets $10,000 a year more expensive, but eventually you will know the formula and then you'll never, ever have vulnerability problems ever again.
00:47:24
Speaker
Um, I kind of want to pivot, but it's tied in with vulnerability. I was thinking about, you know, like, like I said, you, I've been meeting with you as a coach and you've been meeting me where I'm at. And at the same time, cracking the whip in certain ways. And, you know, just the, the current thing that we're working through is my calendar, right? Me can taking control of my time and my day and then following through with it.
00:47:54
Speaker
and me being in the all or nothing, my pendulum swings, and then I kind of give up on it, et cetera. But my question within that is, why is it that you feel
00:48:07
Speaker
Like I logically, rationally know this is good for me to fine tune my calendar. Cause I've got, you know, I've got a couple of businesses. I've got five kids. I've got my wife. I've got our land. Like I got a lot going on and I need to get better at.
00:48:25
Speaker
managing my time, controlling my time. And it's not just, hey, time management, one on one, and you're going to improve your life. For me personally, there's an emotional underlier underneath that, that it feels hard to do, or that I get looped sometimes. And we talked through it right where I
00:48:44
Speaker
Have my calendar plan and then I get a curveball the kids sick and I gotta take him to the doctor Whatever it may be and then I get thrown off and then I can shame spiral and it like there's all these emotions tied into this this dynamic for the of the calendar for me personally My question within that is why why is it that we want to hold on to unhealthy paradigms or to Like why does it feel so hard not not as a means of
00:49:13
Speaker
giving me an out or other people an out, but why can't it be hard to lock into a new regiment, paradigm, habit, routine, just things that we know logically will improve us, but emotionally or with what life has coming our way, just it feels like trudgery to be able to turn that ship.
Identity, Change, and Self-Reflection
00:49:38
Speaker
Okay, I'm gonna go straight for the jugular in this one, not on you, on your podcast, because this is a general jugular that we all, I think this is everybody's, like, if you want to get right at it, you have an identity and a story that is attached to that identity, or a set of stories, depending on different areas of your life, but
00:50:03
Speaker
that whatever dominant stories that are playing out unconsciously when you do something like, I'm gonna change the way I do my calendar. And specifically for you, the way you did the calendar is you attach that calendar that were things that were high priorities for you. So you didn't just create a calendar. You spent some really good solid time thinking that thing out. It wasn't just, oh, here's my calendar. You really did a great job of
00:50:33
Speaker
figuring that thing out. And so the external threats are real and that happens to all of us, right? You dial something in and gosh darn it, the dog gets sick or the cat gets sick or the kids get sick or the car breaks down and that can be discouraging and that's an external threat. But the more, if none of those things had happened, the internal threat is
00:51:00
Speaker
I'm trying, I'm doing my best right now to align my actions with my truest, highest self. And I'm not sure I want to let go of the current version of me that I've grown very comfortable with. So it really is, it forces a letting go process that can feel like death. And most people are afraid to die. They don't. Yeah.
00:51:26
Speaker
So it, you know, most of the neuroscience out there, most of the new, you know, atomic habits is a great book that's out by James clear. There's a lot of stuff where it's like learning how to work with that. Some of those unconscious triggers on you that, that cause you to knee jerk back the black and white. It's, it's, there's a lot of slow and steady wins the race.
00:51:48
Speaker
work with your neurobiology instead of against it, you know, kind of stuff. But it really boils down to, so that's all that stuff's out there. The approach I'm taking that I think is very complimentary to all that that's happening is, hey, double down on your who time.
00:52:06
Speaker
You know, did you ever get read to as a kid or do you read to your kids or do you tell them stories? Like your kids, right? Everybody loves a story. Well, here's a great way to soften those unconscious internal knee jerk responses.
00:52:21
Speaker
Do story time with yourself every day. Tell yourself the story about who you're becoming and who you really are. I do like half hour to 45 minutes, sometimes two hours a day of story time with myself. I'm like, all right, David. And I kind of, I don't really talk this way, but this is how I feel inside. I'm gonna tell you a story about you. Guess what?
00:52:45
Speaker
This is who you are. And some days I don't like that story. I'm like, that story is not me. And I feel, and I get upset about hearing my story that I know is true about me because there's so many things happening in my life that day that feel contrary to the story. It feels like a fairy tale. I don't want to believe it.
00:53:03
Speaker
But it really is, if I could boil it down to this, double down on any ways that you currently meditate on who you are, whether it's with God, whether it's with friends, you could also replace that phrase with reflective time, which is positive reflective time. Do you look in the mirror? Can you look in the mirror and not be self-deprecating? Great exercise, get up in the morning, look in the mirror and wait until the self-deprecation stops.
00:53:29
Speaker
Yeah. Like just wait. Even if you just get to a neutral place, that's better than, you know, it's better. It's better than like, I've, I've, I've had people on a zoom call like this go, Hey, just look at yourself for 60 seconds and tell me what thoughts and feelings come up. Oh my gosh. I would say almost every single person, the dominant things are self-deprecation of some sort. Okay. So I'm like, Hey, let's just hang out until that. So.
00:53:59
Speaker
Practically, I think it's being more patient and slowly making the changes so you don't trigger out the self-defense mechanisms. But the other thing that you can do that really softens it is to anchor in and begin to get good at articulating. And if you don't know that story, that's the work I'm passionate about is, hey, let's get into that story.
00:54:29
Speaker
Let's have you spend more time on that. I call it who time state of being time. You know, so that's, that's my answer to that one. How do you stay anchored to your highest self in the process?
00:54:43
Speaker
So I have it as part of my practical schedule. So I have at least a half hour every morning. I have it right on my desktop. I can show it to you right now. I have stuff on there that I read. It's so easy to get to. I just clicked on it. In the beginning, I used to stick underneath my toothbrush.
00:55:01
Speaker
because I literally instinctually did not want to read that stuff over myself because I think instinctually I knew that it would begin to dissolve the old self. So I do that. And then I have five minute pauses and one half hour pause throughout my day where I reconnect to that. And I have one practical indicator, KPI, key performance indicator that I check in.
00:55:30
Speaker
on every day, which is what percentage of my day did I stay to align with my true self. So if you can get good, I mean, if you want to change your eating, what's the best way to do it? Just create a food diary, right? Just feed that information and people spontaneously change when they become conscious of what they're doing. Same thing with your story and your truest self.
00:55:52
Speaker
one new story that's emerging that you can just begin to, let's say every day you expand on that story by a word or two. Hey, if I was talking to myself, hey, David, you're practical, but you're also mystical, you're spiritual, you're a compassionate guy, you're safe. And then let's say this morning, I'm doing that and I go, and
00:56:12
Speaker
you're really funny. So I just add that to my story, right? Okay. Yeah. The next day I've got one more thing that I can add to that little story I'm telling myself and I just keep feeding that information in and then I'll go do my day and I'll disconnect from all that stuff. Somebody will call me and trigger me. It's 12 noon. I'm hungry. I'm angry. I'm worried. And I go, okay, let me read this again. Oh gosh. None of that's true. I'm not, I am not funny. I am not compassionate.
00:56:40
Speaker
But even just that awareness of, wow, I got, how did I get off center? What could I do right now to reconnect to that a little bit? And just those little course corrections throughout the day can calm those parts of my brain down. I can get back to my prefrontal cortex. Um, maybe I'll go, you know what I need to do right now? I just need to go have some hard boiled eggs. That's what I need to do because my system, my, my physical system is so jacked up.
00:57:06
Speaker
I can't even connect to this. Take a pause, go grab some almonds, drink some water, try again. Okay, yeah, I'm all right, okay. So really it's learning what knocks you off center and becoming a student of yourself can be super helpful to you. I love that, I love that. Gotta wrap it up. Always ask a question. I'm curious what people have to say.
00:57:36
Speaker
One billboard, one billion people see it. What does it say? You're okay. All right. You're okay. I love that. Or as, or you're all right, all right, all right. You're all right, all right, all right. Matthew McConaughey, that thing. Yeah, yeah.
00:58:06
Speaker
Um, well, Dave, I, this has been a wealth of knowledge. Obviously I've been meeting with you, so I've been receiving a lot of this and yet at the same time, I feel like I grabbed a handful of things from our conversation today. So thank you so much for taking the time. Can you tell everybody kind of what you've got going on, what you're involved with, how they can find you, et cetera? Yep.
00:58:27
Speaker
Um, one-on-one coaching group coaching, and I do a couple of retreats a year. You can find out about all of that at David Charleston coaching. And my last name is C H a R L S O N David charleson coaching.com. Awesome. There it is. Well, Hey, thanks again for a great conversation. And I can guarantee you that some folks are going to be pulling some nuggets from this for sure. All right. See ya.