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Moments with SETH DUVAL
72 Plays8 months ago
A chance meeting in a local bookstore lead to a very insightful discussion with Seth about his experience of being a "small" man in a land of giants. His giant heart is revealed in his spoken and written words that he shares with us. I was deeply moved in this revelatory conversation as Seth helps me realize a new perspective of a man's experience ...
Link to Seth's book, At the End of Our Travels: A journey through the mind of a poet:
Thank you for supporting my work with "Moments with MEN!"
Contact me with comments, insights or to continue the discussion with me on your own episode ...
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:03
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I am Lizzie Kay, and welcome to another episode of Moments with Men. And today, the man I am going to talk to is named Seth. And we had a little bit of a chance meeting, so I'll talk about that. But hi, Seth. How are you today? I'm good. How are you? Very, very good. I really appreciate you coming on and talking to me
Meeting Seth and Immortal Tree Bookstore
00:00:29
Speaker
about this. We met
00:00:30
Speaker
a few weeks ago in a bookstore by chance. I had heard about a little local bookstore called Immortal Tree Bookstore. So check them out and they may be going online as well too.
Gender Stereotypes and Demographics
00:00:44
Speaker
And the conversation I overheard kind of went to or alluded to some of the things that I'm talking about, like, well, men are this way and women are that way. And as I do, I couldn't help but interject myself into the conversation.
00:01:00
Speaker
But we really had a nice talk, all of us, there was another couple there and then one of the owners of the store, just about, you know, those deeper meanings of that, like how quickly we just, you know, put ourselves and each other in those lists as men do this and women do that. So I'm really interested and I think you were intrigued by, you know, what else, you know, how else might men be expressing
00:01:28
Speaker
So you can tell a little bit about that meeting. And I want you to tell too, maybe in your introduction with us, you know, how old you are, where you were born, kind of where you live now, just kind of give us a little bit of that demographic information to introduce yourself. Of
From Pennsylvania to Phoenix and Relationships
00:01:45
Speaker
course. So my name is Steph. I am originally from Pennsylvania, more so Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, or at least an hour up north from there.
00:01:55
Speaker
I am 26 years old and currently reside in Phoenix, Arizona. Long move all the way across the country, but, you know, how to explore a different community, to explore different cultures, and to learn more. And I'm here with my fiancé. So I have been with my fiancé. We just got engaged in December.
00:02:20
Speaker
I've been with them for 10 years. So I just said I was 26 when we were high school school part. Wow. Okay. Well, because that these days, it's kind of an unusual story. We might've heard that, you know, in times before. So very interesting. Well, thanks for sharing that with us. And so, so when we first met and kind of started talking about this, what was it that
00:02:48
Speaker
that kind of helped you to say, yeah, I want to go on and talk about this topic. What were we talking or mentioning?
Poetry, Masculine Stereotypes, and Loneliness
00:02:56
Speaker
Definitely. I can't remember the exact conversation we were having, but I know for myself, and I was explaining, because I do write poetry, I am a poet, and I have a poem about being a small man. Because why I wanted to go on to here is to just let people know that, hey, there are different
00:03:19
Speaker
There's different varieties that a man isn't just a singular thing. They're not a singular entity, and they don't have to be a singular way. When you think of a man, you think of the primitive, strong man. They have big muscles. They take care of the woman.
00:03:37
Speaker
And that's not me. I am small. I weigh like 120 pounds. And I don't really fit those roles. I don't like sports. I garden. I cook for my fiancee. I do the laundry. We have those reverse roles. And it makes me feel like I can't really find the people for me. I can't find the friends that I so desire to have because they don't fit into those certain roles.
00:04:07
Speaker
So that's really why I wanted to come on here to talk about like, hey, like there's are there certain roles and they can be switched and that men can be different ways and they don't have to be that singular entity that people describe them as. Amen. That's exactly what I hope that we kind of come across and explore in some of these discussions is that, you know,
00:04:31
Speaker
that we can hear from a man who has, even at 26, wow, right, has found a way to say, yeah, I'm not like that, you know, whatever, you know, we're often expected to see from the masculine in this society. So how has that played out for you? I mean, how have you, so you've said that it's difficult to kind of find your people, like your other men, right, that kind of understand that expression of you.
00:05:02
Speaker
So tell us a little bit more about that experience. What's that been like? And I just want to say, just cause you're in your car, make sure we can hear you really clearly. Cause I don't want to miss what we're saying.
Emotional Expression and Mental Health in Men
00:05:11
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I'll try to speak as clearly as possible here, but I think what I really, what it really is, it brings loneliness. It can be very late from trying to find people who aren't necessarily out there because I feel like they're afraid to even express these emotions, express their true selves.
00:05:31
Speaker
it really leads to a communication issue where men don't talk about anything other than sports or anything other than like, hey, look at this girl or something like that. I want to be able to talk emotions. I want to be able to talk feelings. I want to be able to have deeper connections with people. But because of that certain, I guess, way that men think and people think men should think, you don't have those connections with them.
00:06:01
Speaker
It leads to being very lonely. It leads to having a lot of communication issues, too. I mean, I could even say for myself, being with my fiance, we did break up once. I was engaged for once before, but I couldn't express myself. I couldn't express my emotions. That's why I started writing poetry in the first place, because I feel like that's the only way I can express my emotions, because I was never taught
00:06:29
Speaker
how to express them and how to talk openly with them. It led to, I mean, my dad was not a very emotional person. He always kept quiet. He never really shared my mom any love. And it blossomed to me, you know, being, you've learned from the generation before you, you've learned from your parents. So I never, I learned to be quiet. I learned to be non talkative. I learned not to really show that much love to the person. So I don't know how to show love
00:06:59
Speaker
I don't know how to connect with others. And I have that communication issue which ultimately led to my fiance breaking up with me. And we're trying to get back with that. I'm trying to be able to express my emotions more. And as I do express my emotions more, I have found that I've been in Phoenix for a year and a half now, and I don't really have anyone other than her.
00:07:24
Speaker
just because it is like, Hey, I will go on this app and try to make friends. And it's like, Hey, what are we talking about? Like, Hey, I want to talk about my, like, I have depression. I have anxiety. I'm bipolar. Like let's talk about these things. Let's connect. And they're like, Oh, have you seen the latest Cardinal game or whatever it is? And I'm like, No, no, I haven't because that's, I don't like sports, but it's very lonesome.
00:07:49
Speaker
That's what I'm often really getting there. It's very lunch. I'm really excited for anybody. And I think that that leads to at least a lot of mental illness. I mean, I feel like my mental illness, having depression and anxiety has worsened because I am alone. And I can even see that. I just like to say that I am a case manager who works with severely mentally ill patients called SMI.
00:08:14
Speaker
And you can see it where the men, I mean, they have suicidal ideation. They have depression. They are coming to us and not being able to communicate how they're really feeling. And they end up in hospitals. They end up overdosing on drugs because the only way that they can feel is if they go onto drugs and that kind of stuff. So if men were to be more open with each other, maybe these things could be fixed. Maybe there would be a better chance of men surviving
00:08:44
Speaker
I don't know those exact statistics. I know it's high for men to have high suicide rates and they really need to be able to talk to someone. And to go along with that, I just think it's also on the women's side as well, because men don't talk about this either, but I feel like women also look at men, have it to be strong. And like, if you say your emotions and you're a weak man and they don't want to be with you, it's a catch point too there.
00:09:13
Speaker
Exactly. I just wrote on this, Seth, in the article, I just was having this spark last night about it, because, you know, it's not just, all right, us saying, all right, men, get it straight, you know? Come on, just express more, you know? Well, what kind of receptacle is
Cultural Expectations and Emotional Expression
00:09:34
Speaker
that, right? Because like you said, right now, or not that we're talking in general, not for everyone, but, but really right now,
00:09:43
Speaker
the only people men who want to express their emotions have is their women, right? And so if they're right, so if their women are like, you know, expecting you to, you know, get it right, and you haven't done that right, and you're just constantly criticizing, that's what I found. And I'm saying I'm guilty of it. I was married for a long time before I understood some of this as well. So
00:10:08
Speaker
So that's not really, I have since done a lot of trauma work and you're in the field too. So, you know, you learn, you really need that safe container to just, and then it takes a while, right? It takes a while for the nervous system for you to actually be able to learn, okay, I can express this and it's okay, right? She doesn't leave, I don't get lambasted, I don't get attacked or dismissed because I've expressed. And then it's still gonna try it again. And then I'll try it again.
00:10:39
Speaker
I mean, that takes some courage, right? It takes some courage, but it takes, right. It takes us also going, all right, I lay down my swords. You know, how do you just need to express today? You know? Yeah. I also think that like, when it comes to communication and stuff like that, because men are not taught how to communicate their feelings, different
00:11:03
Speaker
Different emotions come out in different ways. So while they may feel anxious about certain things or may feel sad about certain things, you'll come out in anger. And that anger will push people away and may push your spouse away or your partner away, no matter who you're partnered with because they don't want to be around that anger. But you're just trying to express yourself.
00:11:26
Speaker
Exactly. I mean, women express with anger, everyone does, right? When we're afraid or we don't know how to express anger is that cover up thing because we can feel a sense of control with anger. So I mean, you know, can we just allow that? And I think that's where, you know, I've learned over many years, right? It's okay to be uncomfortable with someone else's emotional
00:11:52
Speaker
response at the moment, because it's only going to last for 90 seconds. It can only have that charge for just a little while, and we all want to rush in and change it because we're uncomfortable in the moment. So can we just allow it? Everybody's going to be okay, right? And you're right. It takes a while to learn how to do that. In the interview I did with Joe and Jay,
00:12:15
Speaker
There was this question that comes up is like, men are just wired this way. We're wired not to talk about our emotions. I'm like wired or programmed. Like you said, your father, this isn't just this generation. This is the culmination of it. His father didn't know how to express and his father only certain ways to express. So it's a very long generational, just like for women holding generational wounding, men are too.
00:12:46
Speaker
I mean, it's hard to say if it's wired or if it's a learned behavior because, I mean, looking back, it's always been, even in primitive times, the men were hunters while the women were together. It's like they were the ones that were supposed to be strong and provide. So it could be that every single generation kind of just followed that until it got to this point where we're at now where it's like, okay, like,
00:13:13
Speaker
Men still have to be strong. They still have to be the hunters. They still need to provide for the women. And it's just, it's dynamics are shifting. The dynamics are shifting where like, as we think they're so easily provided to us, we don't have to be that hunter anymore. We don't have to be, but one, I mean, we can still take care of our partners and stuff like that, but we also take care of, in a sense,
00:13:41
Speaker
You know, and it's just, I feel like the dynamics are really changing and men need to be able to do what they think is best for them and what they love, whether that be, yes, or cooking or gardening, they need to be open to be able to do certain things and not be criticized by the masses. Exactly.
Astrology, Societal Roles, and Masculinity
00:14:01
Speaker
Well, you just kind of led me into a little bit of the talk because I'm also a shamanic astrologer and in that paradigm,
00:14:09
Speaker
Each place on the wheel, which means each division, each 12 spots on the wheel has its own validity and its own necessity in the tribe, so to speak. And not every one of those places are the warrior or the father or the protector, the provider. Some are the feeling function and that's for the men as well. Some are the nurturers, the gardeners, all that.
00:14:35
Speaker
But in this society, it's all been morphed down to everybody needs to get in the line and in a box. So everybody else is comfortable. We know who you are and what you are. And we don't have to think any further than that. So what you just spoke to is like, well, some of us are more of that feeling function. Some of us are the gardeners and the cooks. And that's that comes in a male body too, not just a female body.
00:14:59
Speaker
So in this period, my mentor relies on a lot of the thoughts of Carl Jung. And one of the things Carl Jung said about, I want to see how this hits you, about the different expressions of masculinity is for the male to know his sword and know how to use it. But that doesn't always mean the sword of warriorship.
00:15:25
Speaker
Right. It's like my sword is being a father or my sword is being the, the, maybe the homemaker, you know, or the teacher. Um, so you just kind of spoke to that. Just wonder how that kind of hits you a little bit, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I hear that, it makes me almost feel like, um, like, yeah, they, they'll have these swords and it's like, they want to use these, like, this is their power. This is what their passion is. This is what's like, you know, like they're meant to do, but.
00:15:55
Speaker
While you have that sword, it will get dull. And you need to sharpen that sword, which for me would be actually doing these things, doing your passions, working on yourself and working on your goals. And it's these things that they can't really blossom if they're hidden. They need to be out in the open. And for us men, I feel like it's hard for us to be out in the open like that, especially when these aren't things that we normally do.
Work, Nurturing Roles, and Safe Spaces for Men
00:16:24
Speaker
You know, these are usually like women roles and I'll speak for like my work. Like I'm one of the only men in their education manager. And because it's a woman dominated role and it's, it's odd. And there are, there are a lot of people or a lot of clients who want women only because they feel like it's their job to do this and the man can't actually help them out because they don't know what they're going through or they don't know how to express these kinds of things.
00:16:51
Speaker
And that will dole the sword, too, because while I'm trying to do this thing, it's, you know, my self-confidence goes down, self-esteem goes down, because people don't believe in that. People don't believe that you can do these things. I mean, I think there just needs to be a more open discussion, especially in women, too, and to go into men-dominated fields, that, hey, they can do these things. Everyone can do these things. They just have to be trained properly. So you just have to give them a chance.
00:17:22
Speaker
Wow, you just opened my eyes to another side of this, right? How some entire, you know, industries that are normally women dominated, the nurturing, the caring, the counseling, all of those things, you know, have, you know, the men have kind of been left out to the points. This is my point too, is that the others have been trained as well, which means women have been trained how to see men.
00:17:50
Speaker
I mean, we should expect these things. We have a checklist, you know? I mean, and still, just on the Zodiac wheel, there's only a few men that are gonna fit that checklist, you know what I mean? So what do we expect? How are we gonna find all of us gonna get those few men? Anyway, that's a simplified way of saying it, but you just said, wow, how,
00:18:14
Speaker
to me, that's so sad how many people could really be helped by that, what I'll call the sacred masculine presence of that man who knows. I am in touch with the feeling function, the emotional life, the ability to nurture and care, you know, and how many miss out just because they're so used to, or, you know, again, we've all been trained how to think and how to put people in boxes as well. So,
00:18:44
Speaker
Thank you for opening my eyes to that other aspect. So how would it look? What would it, what would we do if you had a place right now, right? Where you knew, I am gonna go, you know, gather with or be able to express or, you know, know I'll be accepted for how I am and how, what would that look like? How would, what can we do? Yeah, honestly, I just think there needs to be a safe space for men to go.
00:19:14
Speaker
Whether that be a self-help group or community group or something like that, there just has to be it. All it takes is one facilitator. All it takes is one person to be like, hey, let's gather here and be open and let's have this discussion. And it could be a man or a woman. I feel like it should be a man, though, because those are the ones that we're going to connect with. Like, oh, if he can do this, then I can do this, too. All it takes is one person to do this. I just think everyone is
00:19:43
Speaker
a little too afraid to stand up because they don't want to be ousted. They want to be, I mean, are social creatures. That's what humans are. You know, we want to be, you know, back in the back end of the day, the hundreds of others, if you weren't part of society, you were probably what it lasts. And, you know, that always that follows through to our today's society, where, like, if you're not in the society, you're going to be lonely, you're not going to be with anybody and you're not going to have an enjoyable life, a happy life.
00:20:14
Speaker
So they don't wanna be ousted like that. And that's why I think everyone is so afraid to be open and to have that one person just stand up and be like, hey, let's start this. Because they don't know if anyone else is going to join in with them. And if no one else joins in with them, then they're ousted basically from society. Yeah. I will, that is, I'm getting chills because I just had this conversation this week and I'll just open up a little bit of what I do off the cameras
00:20:44
Speaker
I have private sound baths sometimes, right? And we had, the other night we had four people and it's usually a group of women, of course, but that night one of the women brought her husband and he had been here once before, so he knew what to expect. And so afterwards, we all have a little time to integrate and share. And he was, I will say brave enough to say, well, I don't know why, but like tears kept coming up, right?
00:21:14
Speaker
And, you know, great that he felt he could be comfortable sharing that to begin with. I don't know why I was getting emotional. And so I kind of went into the conversation a little bit and I said, well, you know, so that's different to be able to even say that, right? You know? And, oh, I think you're frozen, Seth. I want to make sure you're still there. Can I, can you hear me? Uh-oh.
00:21:46
Speaker
Oh, we've lost him. He will probably sign back on in just a moment. But I will continue with my story about the experience of this man, just being able to share that he had some emotions. And then the question was, well, would you be able to share that anywhere else? And he just said no, automatically, that there would be
00:22:14
Speaker
No group, no friends, no male friends especially that he could really talk about that with. So he really expressed to just what Seth was just saying that really it's almost harder for men to try it out, to have that courage enough to just, I'm gonna just talk about this.
00:22:40
Speaker
and see what happens because of what he just said. They're ousted even faster, I feel like, than women are a lot of times because women might, you know, keep certain women around. We don't maybe really jive with them, but we don't want to seem like we're being mean and we don't want to cut ties.
00:23:03
Speaker
Um, and so it can be actually a little manipulative. Um, and I'll just call that out for some, for some people. Um, and I'm not saying everyone, we were trying to, to get along, but, but for men, I think they automatically just go right to, you know, what are you gay or what are you weak? Um, then.
00:23:26
Speaker
than really just allowing the friend to express. And there's Seth.
Vulnerability, Friendships, and Men's Movements
00:23:32
Speaker
Thank you, Seth. All right, I am so sorry. I told her what I said. Yeah, that's OK. I told my little story, and so I'll let you listen to it later. But you just spoke to, before you froze, what you spoke to is what I told about, is that I really feel like it's actually harder for men in their groups, in their friends, that they already have formed.
00:23:56
Speaker
Um, to kind of have that courage to try it out, to go, you know, man, I just really need to talk about this or having a hard time with, you know, feeling upset or angry or whatever at my part, you know, because the guys are, they're dismissed right away. Oh, don't worry about it. Let's just have a beer. Don't worry about it. Um, because they don't want to feel it. They don't want to, like they don't, men also don't know how to be in that space.
00:24:24
Speaker
So that's the other thing, too. They don't know how to just receive and listen. And so the guy, after getting a little emotional in the sound bath, I'm like, wow, is there anywhere else that you could really express that, like with your friends? No. Like automatically, like, no, we wouldn't ever do that. Or we would get ousted. And that's the thing. I feel like I was just saying while you were off there,
00:24:48
Speaker
know, that I feel like sometimes it's even harder for men because of that. They're ousted even faster out of their groups because they've expressed differently than perhaps women are. So how would you speak to that? Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that's true, that like, men in groups, I mean, they don't want to talk about it. Again, everybody was kind of grown up with this, hey, we're not going to talk about feelings, we're not going to talk about
00:25:17
Speaker
I even talked with my fiance every time I go out with a friend, she's like, hey, okay, what'd you learn about them? I'm like, I don't know what I learned about them. It's because we don't talk about anything deep. I mean, like, one of my fiance tells me, you know, they learned their first name, they only watched me where they were born, like, what their favorite food is, like, everything. And I go out with a guy, and I'm like, hey, you know, he, I don't know, liked video games, that's all I found out.
00:25:45
Speaker
Because there is nothing, because when you start talking, you know, like you said, I think people get scared by it almost. Like they get kind of, they get scared and then they get, they start to back away a little bit because they don't want to talk about these things, they don't know how to. And it could be because they're also holding in so much that they've had throughout their entire lives, all that trauma, all that emotional trauma that like they start to open up, they're afraid that all of this will come pouring out too.
00:26:15
Speaker
And they probably don't want to talk about it either because they probably have the same feelings of like, I don't want to share my life story with the person so probably leave. Wow. Yeah, that's amazing to hear that. And again, I think it speaks to, like I said, I wrote in the article, it's, you know, women have been doing this emotional work for a while. You know, we've been gathering coffee clutching, we've been
00:26:42
Speaker
I'm like, gosh, we'll meet somebody and I already know all the problems in the marriage, like in the first hour, you know, we just go right there to the depth of it. We're used to that in some ways, not everyone, but I'm kind of used to that. And you're just saying, you're speaking really to what's under it, that fear. And that's amazing because there really is a fear when I started my first trauma work. It's like, I'm afraid of that really deep emotion. I don't want to feel like what, I don't want to feel all that I know is right under there.
00:27:13
Speaker
You know, that's why we've been holding it in, right? That's why I feel it. Yeah, so, oh gosh. You've really, like I said, opened my heart even more to some of the things that, and thank you for bringing really beautiful words to what I think a lot of men are feeling and have nowhere to really express that.
00:27:40
Speaker
And what a richness as you're talking about meeting a friend or getting to know them and really missing all of what's underneath, you know, what sports team they like, you know, what they like on their pizza. There's so much more, right? Have you had an experience of like a deep friendship with a guy where you really felt like, you know, okay, we really are knowing each other very deeply? Yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel like my first
00:28:09
Speaker
I had a few friendships back in high school that, you know, I, I've had, I've been forever family for 10 plus years. And I think it wasn't until maybe two or three years ago when my fiance broke up, I really needed someone to talk to that I was even afraid for myself to open up to them. So I didn't know how they would react. And opening up to them, it,
00:28:35
Speaker
It helps me a lot to be able to open up the song, but I feel like their reaction was like, oh man, I'm sorry, that really sucks. Let's move on. And that's it. It's like, okay, thanks for the talk. I appreciate it. I wish we could talk more about this, but because they don't, I don't know if they know how to respond to it too. I think that's also a thing they don't know how to respond to. They've never really had to, especially from other men.
00:29:05
Speaker
it catches them off guard, too. It's like, oh, whoa, we don't talk about these kinds of things. Like, I don't know how to respond. So we're just going to avoid the entire situation. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I what I've been picking up and hearing, you know, from, from others in different ways. So so and I've seen some men's movements out there, you know, that are all most not all of them, but
00:29:33
Speaker
You know, a lot of them are about men gathering kind of in the woods and painting on the war paint and screaming and being tribal again. And there's something to that, you know, finding that raw fire that is, I believe, part of what, if anything, is wired into the masculine, right? That might have been programmed out in some way where we kind of have to like, you know, where's the, where is that inner warrior in some ways? But that doesn't resonate with everyone.
00:30:00
Speaker
You know, I don't necessarily see the poets going out to the woods to do that. So, you know. I just believe that like, I mean, yeah, there is that masculine, but everyone also, men and women, they have masculine and feminine at home. It's the yin and yang, the light to the dark. There's always, everything has two sides. And men have that femininity in them, and so do women. They have that masculinity in them.
00:30:29
Speaker
I feel as though the yin and the yang aren't necessarily equal, whereas you could be one, like more of one than the other. You could be like 60 to 40%. And I think that's also true for like, you know, you could be a man and be 60 and 40% 60% men and 40% masculine. And that's okay. That's just how you were born. But each side is going to have those and you need to embrace each side because that's who you totally are.
00:30:57
Speaker
If you don't embrace both sides, you're not embracing what people are, and you are missing out on so much of your own self. Absolutely. And it's painful, and it leads to the things that you see every day. You know, and that's really kind of what we pointed to in the bookstore that day. I was just like, wow, you're working with a lot of people who are like the product of this. We're like, they're just screaming, like, how can I be my, I can't even find myself. How could I be myself if I did? You know, I can already.
00:31:27
Speaker
there's no place for me to do that other than the things that I can't really do, that society says a man should do or expect or be expected to be. So are there any other thoughts? And I want to ask you too, you mentioned that day that you have a perfect poem. Do you have that with you? Could you read that for us today or recite that for us? Oh, wonderful.
00:31:56
Speaker
I feel like, can you hear me okay? I can, and I'd love to just open it up, allow you to read that, and then just follow up with any thoughts that you have further after that. Of course. All right, so this poem is called A Curse. They tell me anyone would kill to have this body. Well, if they want two murderers, then they can murder me. Read me of this curse,
00:32:24
Speaker
that was casted on me since birth, a spell called genetics, ingredients listed one X chromosome, one Y chromosome. Blend it together in a cauldron, set on medium flame, once done, sprinkle on the sperm, cure it to egg, and once that settles, eye will be made. You may think at the blessing I have the freedom to choose, choose what I eat no matter the consequence, or choose what I wear because anything will fit.
00:32:53
Speaker
The bones and the veins that fold out of my skin once a tiny flick is more broken, at least, that's how it fits. How can someone's bones be visible on the outer rims of their universe, just wanting to expand? Oh, how I want to expand, be the next big bang, because I'm tired of being a white little speck. A white little speck upon the land of giants, a mystical place I thought I couldn't break.
00:33:21
Speaker
But the one with the Giants was my only wish. Until they stomped and cursed. Who are you, you teeny little runt? Where are your muscles, your calves that could break diamonds, your stomach that could flatten a mountain? Who are you to call yourself a giant, you teeny little speck? Me, a teeny little speck? Yes, yes, that's who I am. Please call me that again. Your words give me power, give me courage. I may be cursed,
00:33:51
Speaker
But the shell of, well, there is no shell, only white, curly whites, connected by ligaments. But that doesn't make me less of a man. I am who I am, and I'm proud to be one hell of a small man. So that's my problem. And basically, what it's about is being that small man, being the one who doesn't fit into the basket, who doesn't fit into the crowds of what it means to be masculine,
00:34:20
Speaker
But it doesn't matter because I tend to be proud of who I am. I can be proud of being small, of being more feminine, of being just who I am. And I think more men have to embrace that. And I think if they do embrace that and are able to open up more, there would be less, maybe less mental illness, less suicide.
00:34:46
Speaker
more friendships, that's people who are lonely. Everyone, I just feel like if we can all open up and all it takes one person to start a group and be able to talk and open up to get this started. That is so beautiful. Thank you so much for that, you know, for just your words and for being, you know, I felt so much courage in that, like that's okay, call me small because I'm going to just be who I am.
00:35:16
Speaker
My mentor, who is the founder of the astrology school that I study from, his mentor, Dane Rujar said that each chart is like a mandala of the person's cosmic energies. And that each mandala is such an original and unique imprint of each individual, that if that individual doesn't live into that unique mandala, then there's a hole left in the universe.
00:35:46
Speaker
Right?
Identity, Loneliness, and Supportive Groups
00:35:48
Speaker
And so how can we all be trying to fit into this other, this one mandala over here? Right? And you have just in that poem and what you've told us today said, you know, and I love this because, you know, relatively a young man being able to say, no, no, this is who I am. And I'm going to live into that. And it is hard. It's not the path of least resistance. You know? It's definitely lonely going this path.
00:36:16
Speaker
Yeah, but I hope that you know, too, this is part of why I started this, I wanted to reach out to my friends who had had this original conversation and say, Hey, I just want you guys to know that not all women see this way. And that, you know, we're gonna try, we're trying to and I, you know, I keep putting this out to the women, hey, you know, patience, you know, calm down, let them figure this out a little bit, you know, I mean, they've let us go to our little women circles and our coffee collection, you know, let them and right now,
00:36:45
Speaker
like you spoke to and I appreciate you reminding us of this. Sometimes we're the only safe space they have at this point, right? To begin this process. So I hope that you'll maybe send me that poem and I'll put it in an article that goes along with this podcast and any other links to your work or other poetry or books that you would like us to know more about.
00:37:15
Speaker
And I'd like to know too, so what do you want to say? Like, how would you start a group? Do you feel inspired to start a group? What would that look like? And then what would you tell women too? What would you say? You know, you've kind of said, all right, men, you know, in this way, we need to learn to express these things. But what would you say to us too? Yeah, so I think when it comes to starting groups, yeah, I mean, I feel, I do feel inspired.
00:37:45
Speaker
I just think, you know, it comes with repetition and it could be starting like a meetup group or something like that, something put on that app or, you know, just invite people, you know, put it out there, tell your friends and it may take a couple of sessions. You may be sitting there by yourself for a couple of sessions, but if it takes one other person to come and they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their friends. So I think it is really, it comes with the repetition, it comes with not giving up that we
00:38:14
Speaker
You know, just keep going, just keep going, because someone needs to start this. And then for the women, I just need to be more patient. We just have to understand that us as men, and I know this for myself, because I struggle with this a lot, we don't know how to communicate or feel. We're going to have trouble. We're going to say things that we don't mean to say, and it may sound like something else, but it means something completely different.
00:38:41
Speaker
And just the patience to be there, to understand, to let us cry, and to not criticize us, and to just let us be ourselves in that space, to be that space for us. That's really all that we need. Amen. I want to add to that, too, that the part that
00:39:04
Speaker
You know, Evan, I think we're all still figuring
Communication, Community, and Gratitude
00:39:06
Speaker
this out. I don't know this, but I feel like there is a part that is a wired part of a masculine energy that comes along with the masculine energy, which means that the emotional expression within the masculine energy is going to be different. So women also need to understand that. Your expression isn't always going to look like mine or your partner's or, you know, and I think we,
00:39:31
Speaker
That's our discomfort sometimes is we want it to match, you know, like if you would have mode the way I know, then I could understand it. So I really appreciate that kind of call to action for us to, you know, just be patient. All the things that we've been kind of learning in our circles and in our own emotional growth. Well, let's exercise it.
00:39:56
Speaker
you know, as we're turning around and reaching out our hand, you know, it can't be one or the other. There's no creation with only the male or only the female, right? You know? So, and we can kind of put down our only female thing that, you know, I kind of tell what, stop, stop, stop, you know, and invite them in. And if, you know, maybe that's a start too, right? You know, this man came to the center.
00:40:26
Speaker
Uh, that's a start to, we just start inviting into circles too. And then men go, all right, we're going to make our own circle. I mean, I don't know. Would that be an option? Would that be a way? I don't know because. Feeling comfortable being to go into those groups and being, being open, the women being open to invite men into this group as well. It gives us a sense, not only just like a sense of like belonging, but a sense of community. So we're not so of a no.
00:40:55
Speaker
And I think that that could also be a start where we have a sense of being able to grow as a person. You know, maybe we won't be able to share our emotions or feelings in that setting, but just having that sense of community may stop us going home and doing like drinking or doing great to me, you know, because we want to feel, we don't want to feel our feelings, we don't want to feel alone. Right. And maybe not based on a game.
00:41:22
Speaker
maybe like, you know, food and music or just talking or something like that. Yeah. It could just be talking. It could just be food. It could just be, it could really be anything that they want to talk about. Yeah. I want to just let them open up. Let them say what they want to say because while they may not speak what they're really feeling, I feel like down there's going to be some little messages in what they're talking about.
00:41:51
Speaker
and you really just have to look for that and try to understand. Exactly. And it takes a while, right? It just takes a while for that nervous system to relax enough to be able to just talk in a mode. So like you said, staying consistent and just keeping with it. And just like what we're doing, I so appreciate you doing this because it's speaking to it. If we don't at least start talking to each other and you telling us, hey, be patient with us. This is what we're experiencing.
00:42:20
Speaker
because you're observant. You're not only observing your life, you're observing others as well and other men who are, you can tell whether they're talking about it or not, are feeling the same way or you're meeting that resistance really in your life, right? And kind of saying, hey, it's lonely out here guys, let's talk more. Right? Is there anything else that you'd like to kind of say about our talk today or,
00:42:52
Speaker
I think I'm good. I think I spoke to everything that I wanted to speak about today, and I really appreciate you having me on this podcast. I was so looking forward to it. I was preparing myself all week. That's wonderful. And I will say, too, Seth, I mean, we're local with each other. And this is kind of the thing I do, too, is kind of create groups and circles. So
00:43:15
Speaker
You know, I have a place we can at least start something and that's kind of what I try to do too. It's like, let's just get together. Yeah. Yeah. So here we go. We're starting it in one way or another. Just putting it out there. Thank you so much, Seth, for your time today and for your insight and your wisdom and your willingness and your courage to come talk to me about this and spend some moments with me as a man with
00:43:44
Speaker
some deeper thoughts and feelings that I know a lot of men have. And hopefully by you doing this, others will have that courage to speak about it too. I really, really hope so. Yes. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. I may have to. I'll cut this.