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Moments with JAMES
29 Plays7 months ago
"Every man has a little cocky in him!"
James' story of growing up in the same small town as me is a true example of the saying, "hard times make strong people." Many facets of his personal environment were difficult and in our hot, humid summers (with only landline phones) it took quite a bit of effort and independence and a lot of sweat to meet up with close friends that were a lifeline for his soul.
The strength he gained in hard times gave him the desire to challenge himself and to do "harder things." Then a crucial juncture allowed him to tap into his innate leadership qualities and to commit to giving that strength direction and purpose.
James gives us a true hero's saga ... one in which the hero gains his strength "in battle" and becomes a vital, respected, and humble leader, protector, provider to his family and community and to all his relations.
Links to the talk mentioned in this episode by Martin Prechtel, "Grief and Praise":
Part 1 - https://youtu.be/UUwewfPPSbE?si=FgPVxwfmxThY2lML
Part 2 - https://youtu.be/6uAuP30ZD5A?si=dV5X--BnfoTU6SK5
Part 3 - https://youtu.be/r3PeRGtTYTk?si=ZVtPsvABFBy8LxLM
Thank you for supporting my work with "Moments with MEN!"
Contact me with comments, insights or to continue the discussion with me in your own episode ...
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Moments with Men'
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I'm Lizzie Kay, and welcome to another episode of Moments with Men. And today I am having some moments with my longtime friend, James. Hi, James. How are you? I'm doing well. I hope you are. I am. I am so grateful for you coming on and doing this with me. James and I have known each other for a long time, I think since
00:00:28
Speaker
Fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, something like that. Probably so, okay. I was thinking about that earlier. I was like, when actually was that? I was thinking maybe seventh grade, you was in seventh when I was in eighth, but you were probably right. It's probably sixth to seventh grade, yeah. At least knew each other, but it was a small town, so everybody kind of knew everybody, especially in the school. And we've just kept in touch over the years, so that's been really nice. And I, again, appreciate you having this conversation with me.
00:00:58
Speaker
You're welcome. I appreciate you having me. Yeah.
What is the Podcast's Focus?
00:01:01
Speaker
So again, what we do here is I'm opening up conversations between a man and woman about expressions of masculinity and what it means to be a man in this society from your perspective. So let's just start, give us some kind of demographic information. You know, where were you born? What was the environment like? What was the family structure like? Where do you live now? Kind of what's your family structure like now?
James's Early Life and Upbringing
00:01:27
Speaker
Okay, well the story probably starts like most other people I was raised in a small town, born in a small town. Baden, North Carolina, actually was born in Albemarle, but Baden's like maybe five miles from Albemarle. But Baden was a town that an alcohol aluminum plant founded
00:01:48
Speaker
So all the people that was in that area pretty much worked in that area. Alcoil built the town. My parents unfortunately did not work at the plant. But we did live inside the city limits of Baden and went to school at the local elementary. Was there from first grade through eighth grade.
00:02:11
Speaker
I missed one day of school through eight years, so I had perfect attendance sometimes. I can't remember why I was out that one day. That really makes me mad. After elementary school, I went to the county high school, which was North Stanley High School.
00:02:28
Speaker
Went there for four years, graduated, did not go to college, reasons behind that why I didn't go. After college, I went straight to work. Went to work in the county that I lived for a company that manufactured automotive carpet.
00:02:49
Speaker
So I went straight to straight to work after high school and then me and my wife actually met at that company because I was there for a couple years and then she came to work there so we kind of reconnected but I knew her through elementary and high school but we never dated until that moment.
00:03:11
Speaker
but we got married and I think I was 26 when we got married and 10 years later we had two boys and they are twins and that's the only only kids that we uh that we have currently um and that's going to be all of them no more kids so so but um you know growing up uh my family was
00:03:38
Speaker
I'm not sure what kind of issues was going on at the time, but my parents separated several times during my elementary years. So which meant that me and my little brother were drug off to different areas, but we didn't go to different areas very long. I really don't remember those times, but I do remember the breakups, you know, how it made me feel when the breakups, cause it was hard. You know, I didn't really understand.
00:04:08
Speaker
the reasoning behind it, but I could feel the pain of not having dad around and stuff like that and move into a new area. I never did get enrolled to a different school, so that makes me think that they were not separated very long, but it seemed like they were separated a lot.
How Did Independence Shape James's Character?
00:04:30
Speaker
So the family part was
00:04:35
Speaker
It was kind of hard. I didn't have a whole lot. My parents didn't do a lot with us. I never remember going any vacations. I never remember going out to eat. I never remember my dad going to baseball or the football or going camping with us or I don't remember any of that stuff. So not really sure what was going on at the time.
00:05:05
Speaker
really didn't really care to be honest with you because I had my own thing. I had my own friends. I did pretty much what I wanted to do. Now I had to be home at certain hours and stuff, but during the day, like in the summer, you'd go out of the house in the mornings and you would be out all day and then you would come back at night. So, I mean,
00:05:31
Speaker
The short of it, that's pretty much how it was. I mean, there's more details I could tell you about growing up and how, you know, it formed me and got me ready for what was ahead after high school as far as, you know, becoming a man because I had to become one really quick. And I think my experiences growing up prepared me for those moments. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Thank you.
00:06:01
Speaker
Yeah, so go more into that. How did that prepare you, you think? When do you see kind of exactly what it is? Well, growing up, like I said, you know, I think I was, it was a lot younger from when, you know, I think it was in the years, maybe the third grade, through maybe the fifth or sixth, maybe, when all this was going on.
00:06:28
Speaker
You know, in the mornings, during school, I would walk to school, I would walk home. I never remember eating breakfast in the mornings. I always was hungry when I was a kid.
00:06:44
Speaker
which I always pick on my kids now because I always tell them that, you know, you're lucky to have what you have because they can go into the pantry and they can eat. They go into the refrigerator at my house. You did not go into the refrigerator at all. And I don't even think we had a pantry. So,
00:07:05
Speaker
That was very hard because I would go spend a night with some of my friends and when we'd get up the next morning, we would go downstairs to eat and I would go into their kitchen and he would open their cupboards and it would just be food everywhere. And it just totally amazed me of how other people lived compared to where I was living. But you know, I don't regret the way I grew up.
00:07:35
Speaker
I had a great childhood, but the only thing that I do miss is the opportunities that I could have had with my father doing different things.
00:07:50
Speaker
But when I was 11, that was the first year I was eligible to be in the Boy Scouts. And our town had a Boy Scout troop. It was troop 42. And it was one of the best troops in the nation. We were very well known all through the nation. So going into that, I have always been, and I don't know if you remember this, but I have always been or wanted to be
00:08:20
Speaker
I always wanted to be the one that people ask questions, look to me to be the guide. So when I went into Boy Scouts, naturally I was the youngest one there.
00:08:37
Speaker
And everybody was really nice to me for some reason. I'm not sure why, because usually, you know, they initiate the young scouts and put them through a lot of hard activities and stuff. So, you know, after a couple of years in the scouts, I started getting into the more leadership roles, you know, patrol leaders and senior patrol leaders. And, but that was, that was what I always, that's what I wanted. That's what I strive for is to be a leader. I wanted that role.
00:09:07
Speaker
I really didn't like people telling me what to do. I think that role there probably molded me more to becoming a man. That definitely got me started, for sure, on what I needed to do once I got older.
Self-Reliance in Childhood
00:09:33
Speaker
But we would go
00:09:36
Speaker
we would go on backpacking trips into the mountains and we would, you know, we would be in chest, deep snow. I mean, temperatures zero. So you had to survive. You had to be tough. I mean, growing up was hard and it made you tough. And scouting did a lot, a lot of that for me. But yeah, so it, it, it was a, it was a hard time growing up.
00:10:01
Speaker
had a lot of friends. You know, in the summertime, you know, we would get up in the mornings and we would go outside when we played basketball, we played football. We always had something to do. It's not like today where you drive to do an activity. You know, mommy, take me over here and take me there. And so we always, we always entertained ourselves and it was fun. You know, I had a blast. We would, we would get up in the mornings
00:10:28
Speaker
And I know you know where more mountain is, but we would always go to the swimming pool. But the only way to get there was to walk. And if you go by the road, it's probably, what is it, six, seven miles? I mean, to get back to the pool. But if you leave from the scout hall in Baden and go a straight line through the woods, you can get there in 45 minutes walking. So we would walk every morning to the pool
00:10:57
Speaker
and stay there all day. So that was kind of ways, the things that we did to entertain ourselves. And it was tough. I mean, it was hot. We were tired, hungry, you know, just little things like that. I think that makes you, it doesn't make you soft. I don't think a soft person could do stuff like that.
00:11:18
Speaker
But you know, growing up in that time, um, that's how it was. I mean, you had to be, you had to be tough or they would be people that would run over you for sure. And, um, and, and I was, I always tried to be and probably was one of the, one of the main beaten boys. That's what they always called us the boys. So I always had to be number one, but, um,
00:11:46
Speaker
You know, I like to play sports. I mean, we played basketball and baseball and football, you know, in our backyards and in the fields and stuff, but I always wanted to play, you know, for our schools, elementary schools, high schools. Well, in the elementary schools, I played Little League Baseball, but the only way I got to play was because I could walk. I could walk to the practice field.
00:12:12
Speaker
And, you know, we would have games, you know, we'd get on the activity bus and never take us to the games. So when I got in high school, I didn't do that because my parents would not take me to football practice or baseball practice. So I didn't get to do that. So, you know, that's that's a that's a regret for me. I don't hold that against my parents because, you know, I really don't know. I really don't know what their situation was then. You know, I really didn't ask.
00:12:43
Speaker
You know, I could observe. I mean, we didn't have a lot. We didn't have a lot of money because I knew I wasn't going to go to college because I knew my parents could afford it. So, you know, when I was in high school.
00:12:56
Speaker
All through elementary school, I made straight A's all the time. But when I got in high school, I knew that I wasn't going to college and I pretty much just took the easiest thing I could take, didn't study, did just enough to get by. And in my junior year, I was getting out of school at 12 o'clock and going straight to work. So I had my own car when I was a junior in high school, brand new car. I had enough money to buy my own car.
00:13:24
Speaker
My dad didn't pay a dime on it. The only thing he did was he signed for the loan for that car. But my dad never, never gave me a dime. All the clothes that I wore in elementary school were hand-me-downs. And when I got into high school, I was still wearing those clothes. Naturally, I wasn't eating a lot, so I wasn't getting bigger, so I could still wear the same clothes.
00:13:55
Speaker
But when I got my first job, that's when things started turning around for me. I started, I was able to leave school, go to work,
00:14:05
Speaker
buy my own food. And you're talking about a thrill. That was the biggest thrill of my life was being able to leave school and go buy one of the restaurants and get me a hot dog and French fries. That's a big deal for me. It was for other people. That was not a big deal, but for me, that was, that was huge. And, um, but yeah, so,
00:14:29
Speaker
That pretty much gets me to wear, you know, or shape me to where I am today.
Providing and Protecting as a Man
00:14:37
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Because it seems like that, you know, providing for yourself, food, nourishment, you know, attention, even, you know, I can tell, you know, to your family, it's probably a lot different than, than it was when you were growing up in those ways as well.
00:14:55
Speaker
Um, so yeah, being that provider and father involved and all of that, you know, as a kind of reaction or something different than what you grew up with it because it becomes so important. Again, those experiences are what become important.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah. And when, you know, and when I was, sorry to interrupt you, but when I was in, you know, when, when I, when I was in high school and started making money, naturally I bought my own clothes. And I can always remember when I went to school for the first, first time in a pair of Levi's, some girl came up to me and says, you finally got you a pair of Levi's. You know, I didn't know how to take that. You know, I was excited to have a pair of Levi's and a new shirt.
00:15:40
Speaker
But then again, I was like, so what did that mean by her saying that? I mean, is she making fun of me, which I didn't care. I didn't care what she said, but you know, but yeah, I mean, you know, I bought my own clothes during high school just because I think that, you know, my parents just didn't have a whole lot of money, which that's fine. That does not bother me. I do not hold that against them, but that, you know, that, you know, that prepared me. You know, I didn't know at the time,
00:16:09
Speaker
You know, I may have been complaining that, you know, why am I having to do all this for myself? You know, all these other kids over here, you know, their parents are buying on cars, you know, buying their clothes, sending them here and sending that. But it didn't bother me and not at all. Well, you know, it's beautiful. And, you know, you're bringing up a lot of what you talked about kind of these experiences and even like Boy Scouts coming along at a time that
00:16:40
Speaker
allowed you to become stronger, right? And, you know, I even wrote an article about it, that saying that says, hard, hard 10. How does it go? Hard times make strong people. Strong people make easy times. Right. Easy times make weak people. We all weak people make hard times.
00:17:09
Speaker
hard times make strong people. So you just spoke about it and how you've been able to be grateful for those experiences. But I have to say, there's a couple of things that you brought up that I wonder how you feel about these being things that you also had that helped you through that time in a way that it didn't take you
00:17:38
Speaker
take you down or take you down some dark road and you really used it as your strength. You said a few things. One was, you could really feel the breakups, right? You didn't know what was going on. You couldn't make sense of it. Not that kids that age could, but no one was sharing. No one was asking. No one was telling. As usual, a lot of parents don't.
00:18:01
Speaker
tell those things and the children are just left to try to figure it out. You could really feel it, you know, and to kind of stay in touch with the feeling of things, because you even talked about it a little bit later, like people were nice to me, like, well, because you have this like open heart, right? I know you, you do, and you're, you just kind of this nice energy. So, so that's being in touch with that kind of feeling nature, that a lot of, I think men are told early on as boys,
00:18:31
Speaker
zip it up you know um so maybe it's good you didn't have that kind of you know coming down on you and the other thing you had where you had lots of friends you really you know and i know how baiting was yeah we went out in the morning gone all day and you heard the whistle time to go home you know at dinnertime um oh so you had a dinnertime whistle so i didn't have that okay sorry no i did not have that
00:18:58
Speaker
I don't even know what I ate for supper. That would have been nice. I would have been there. I ate evidently. I don't remember what I ate. I do know that a lot of our meals at lunchtime in the summertime, which I enjoyed. I don't know if y'all eat baloney in Arizona, but I can always remember. That's the only thing I remember.
00:19:27
Speaker
is my dad cooking bologna. And I always remember him slicing it. So it wouldn't boil like that. It was always a bologna sandwich with maybe a tomato or something on it. That's one meal I do remember. Yeah, there's a few signature meals along the way for sure. Near time, Bill, I like that. More like a whistle and you better be within earshot, you know. But yeah, it's a nice little town and a way to
00:19:57
Speaker
to get out and connect with others and not be in the like hole of what was going on, perhaps in your home, you know. But it's also interesting to know that you knew there was a lot going on, obviously, you got moved from place to place, but no one was talking about it. And even to this day, it's not like there hadn't been a conversation, you know, like what was going on, mom, you know, well, you know,
00:20:26
Speaker
My mom passed away six years ago in June, June 12th, she died six years ago. And I remember talking to her the night before she had the surgery and she died the next day. And she told me a lot of stories about my dad. I don't know why she told me that. Things that I didn't know, things that I,
00:20:56
Speaker
things that I probably knew already, not sure why she told me that, without saying too much. She told me things that I didn't know, which now, you know,
00:21:16
Speaker
For the things that happened when I was younger, I can see now why we were always separated. And when we would separate, it would be my little brother. I have two brothers, an old brother and a younger brother. It was always my little brother and myself and my mom that would move.
00:21:37
Speaker
My dad and my older brother would always stay in Baden, wherever we were, because we lived in the apartments. And it was kind of funny too, because we lived in like five apartments in Baden. I'm like, why aren't we moving all the time? And sometimes we'd move next door. Never understood what that was about. But anyway, the only place I remember, I remember one home that we moved to, and it was just me and mom and my little brother.
00:22:06
Speaker
And I remember mom telling me that you need to step up and be the man of the house. I remember that to this day. I remember what room we were in. I remember what the room looked like. I don't know where we were. I don't know what town we were in, but I remember what the inside of the house looked like. And it had to be around Halloween because we evidently had just got back from trick or treating or whatever. And it was late. It was late.
00:22:36
Speaker
And there was a knock on the door. And mom didn't want to answer the door. But she knew it was some older teenagers, I guess, that were trick or treating. So she came in and asked me, will you take your bucket of candy and go to the door? She wouldn't go to the door, so I had to do it.
00:22:59
Speaker
But she wanted me to be the man of the house. And I was very young. I didn't know what that meant, but I know what it means now. But that was a memory that I do remember about being separated. All the other times,
00:23:18
Speaker
I don't remember a lot, but you do feel the pain. You do feel the hurt. You can see it in your mom's eyes. You may not understand what's going on, but it affects you. It sure does. It affects kids in those situations. Yeah, for sure. And to be told that very young must be a little
00:23:42
Speaker
or shocking. Yeah. What do I, what do I do? I don't know what that means, but I knew, but I knew that I had to, even at a young age, I knew I had to protect my little brother and my mom, but I have always been like that. I mean, even through high school, when my youngest brother was, he was two years younger, they didn't, nobody mess with my younger brother in high school.
00:24:07
Speaker
I mean, no, because they knew what was going to happen is somebody messing with my young brother. And it's still like that today too. Right. Probably your family and your wife and everything else. And, you know, but that just, that all, that all goes back to the things that I went through when I was younger that prepared me for that period. And I was coming in for my family now.
00:24:34
Speaker
That's what I was going to say, all of that energy protective and, um, and even things that you probably, okay. Well, you talk, you speak to it. Well, how is that? How is that affecting how you show up as a man, a husband, a father, um, employee, whatever other things are in your life, you know, at this time.
Has Masculinity Changed Over Time?
00:24:58
Speaker
Um, well, I've, I've gave that a lot of thought. Um, I think different, different stages of your life, things change, um, your perspective changes. Um, I mean, I've, you know, I'm very protective of my, of my kids and my family and my wife. Um,
00:25:27
Speaker
I do all I can to provide and to protect them. Being a man, I think that's what I'm supposed to do. Somebody comes busting through the door at night, who's going to protect my
00:25:45
Speaker
my kids. I don't expect my wife to get up and handle that. So as a man, I mean, that's my responsibility to do that. But yeah, just, I mean, growing up and being so protective of my mom and my little brother, you know, that was, you know, that was ingrained in me. So, you know, later in life when I got married and had kids that, you know, I was prepared. I knew what to look for to, to protect them.
00:26:16
Speaker
Nice, beautiful. Because some of this conversation is kind of parsing out, what is that kind of primal masculine energy? What is that role? Like you said, I think that's what I'm supposed to do. That's my responsibility. That, I think, that feels like it's something that comes from not something necessarily you were told, or, you know, maybe it was. But I think part of that is just that's because I'm a man in this society, right? I'm stronger, I'm bigger, I can
00:26:45
Speaker
You know, use the act better, whatever, you know, I mean, let's give that some credit. It's very, very instinctive. It's very instinctive instinct. I mean, from any age, you know, I had that instinct when I was
00:27:02
Speaker
When I was younger, not just now, but you know, I, you know, I felt that instinct then, you know, at a young age, I guess, because, you know, the things that that I went through, you know, it just prepared me for that. So, yeah.
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah, well, and and again, how much of it is because of the masculine energy and that's within all of us because I know women who are very protective of their younger brothers or were very protective as they were growing up with their younger brothers, and they would dive in between, you know, whatever parent and whatever was happening. But that was their masculine energy within them, right? Coming to the forefront, you know, with the spear with the shield, with whatever and, and we've had
00:27:48
Speaker
look a little bit at your chart of strap astrological and you do have that Aries energy, the protector, the fighter of the no for the noble cause. Right. You know, and so even more so with you, that is something that would be part of your nature, you know, to fill that role in it. So in that way, it would fit you right to do that seems natural. So
00:28:15
Speaker
So how wonderful for your family and, you know, and your wife and your home and your land and the things that you that you are in charge of there. Right. You know, and again, the Aries is the leader, too. Right. So, again, natural that you would have wanted to. Yeah, here's an organization I can go in and exercise that.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah, I was never, I was never comfortable not being in that role, no matter what the role was, no matter how bad it was. Give it to me, let me handle it. I always wanted to handle things, you know. I guess, I guess that, you know, it, you know, it can come, it can come off sometimes as being cocky. But
00:29:02
Speaker
I guess every man has a little cocky in them. I mean, let's be real. Everybody's got a little bit of cockiness in them. But I think if it was all cockiness that I wanted these roles, I wanted to be the one in charge. I wanted to be able to tell, you go do this and I'll do that. I don't think it was cockiness, because if it was cockiness, I think somebody would have challenged me
00:29:29
Speaker
You know, somebody, somebody would have seen weakness. If it was all cockiness. And I would have been challenged on that and I was never challenged on anything. And it's one thing that I'm very proud of.
00:29:45
Speaker
I was never, ever in a fight, ever. And there were schoolyard fights all the time. And I never, not even came close. So I'm hoping that, you know, me taking these roles and wanting to lead, I was always class president. You know, like, same with eighth grade, I was always president. James, you gonna be president this year? I'm like, yeah, I guess I can.
00:30:15
Speaker
So yeah, so, you know, not getting in those situations where people think that you're, you know, he's just all cocky. You know, I can, you know, I can take him out. I was never, I was never challenged anyway like that. So that tells me that, you know, I think people saw something, a leader in me. Yeah. That never, never happened.
00:30:42
Speaker
Oh yeah, I think you just, you gave a great example of that little, the question, you're going to be class president? Well, I guess I can. I mean, there's the humility there instead of like, well, of course I am, you know, that's a different, even a different energy there. And a true leader, um, before it was all distorted in our current times, and we'll get to current times in a minute, but before it was all distorted in current times, the true leader was the one with the biggest heart.
00:31:10
Speaker
the one that could stand in front and people knew that he had their best interests at heart, right? And therefore no need to challenge him. And like he's doing a great job on our behalf, right? And so that is, again, that Aries energy of fighting for the noble cause. And in that way, then of course we would want to follow his leadership. You know, it is of that. And I think you just gave another description of kind of this sacred masculine energy.
00:31:40
Speaker
Right? Of course. I want to handle things. I'll take responsibility for it. And then again, the distortion of this day and time is the other part you said, well, that might seem cocky and I don't want to offend people, right? This is what we've been, like, I think that that true masculine fire energy. Missing. Doused out. Yes. With a don't be too cocky.
00:32:05
Speaker
you know, or if you're cocky or fiery, right, then now you're toxic, you know, you know, and so it's gotten to be where I think not not you. So thank you for showing us that example. But a lot of men are kind of even scared to wield their sword. You know, I mean, there's a there's a my mentor,
00:32:30
Speaker
quotes, I think it's Carl Jung, he says, you know, what is the definition of masculinity? It's knowing your sword and knowing how to use it. Oh, I like that. Right? Yeah. And your sword is this protector, father, the one that handles things, the responsibility. Other men's sword might be more of the emotional quality, the caretaker, the nurturer.
00:32:56
Speaker
You know, but how does society treat them? If they're the ones that stay home and take care of the home, but maybe that's their sort. That's their contribution. Right. And so again, we're trying to say everybody's, like we said before our conversation today, everybody's got their different way of expressing. And I just really love you telling us, here's the raw masculine way of expressing that primal thing. I'm a protector. I'm a provider. You know, I handle things. Yeah. And, you know,
00:33:25
Speaker
And at the same time, I can be hard not to keep going back to the scouts, but when I was in the top leadership role in scouts, I was hard. I was hard on those scouts because I knew that if I wasn't
00:33:42
Speaker
you know, they wouldn't live up to the potential. And the funny thing about it is one of the scouts was my youngest brother's age. And my younger brother told me a couple of years ago that he's seen him and talked to him and he's a Marine. I mean, he is a high ranking Marine now. And my brother brought up my name and he said, he shook his head and he said, he's hard.
00:34:10
Speaker
He's hard because he remembered, you know, the times in, in scouts when we did that. Well, back to the quote, right? Hard times make strong people, strong men, right? And look at what you, I'm going to look at what you created, right? A strong man. I mean, whatever our opinions are about any of that, but it's just, you know, a man right out there being able to take, Marines take a lot in their training, right? So he's able to take that hard time.
00:34:40
Speaker
and become really strong. So again, I really appreciate this kind of picture of that archetypal essence of, you know, a man with his shield and his sword. Not going out to attack, but knowing his sword, knowing when and how to use it. And people can see your sword, you know, standing here with my sword.
00:35:03
Speaker
You know, they see that. I mean, they can see that in you. They see that that's not someone that I can just, you know, push over. Exactly. And that fire, that kind of essence is also quite intuitive, meaning I got the hit, I act, right? I didn't have to go back and analyze and put the tables together and get the plan. The warrior, right? He's like, whoop, that doesn't look right. Boom. I'm to the door.
00:35:30
Speaker
you know, protecting, right? So it's actually quite intuitive, which means you have to still feel. And that's what people feel from you, right? He's still got this heart, he's hard, but he's still got this heart, you know? So it's a good combination for us to see, but, okay, so bring us up to present day. You know, what do you see happening, right? I mean, this has been, I say it only takes one generation or two, and now all of, you know, society can be shifted and changed and,
00:35:59
Speaker
doing and behaving in different ways than what we saw. And that's true for every generation, every life, right? So what's happened and where do you see, how are men finding, are they finding? Are they having a hard time finding? That kind of essence, that primal essence of, you know, being strong and being a man and being protective and those things. Yeah, what do you see?
00:36:25
Speaker
That's a very hard question. It's an easy question, but it's hard. I mean, we can all see where society is at today as far as what is a man. I am kind of a history buff. I love Civil War history. And I think that in that era,
00:36:56
Speaker
I think that was the greatest era of men that we probably had, you know, World War I, World War II. But just think about those Civil War guys. Joshua Chamberlain, 20th man colonel, facing what he faced in Gettysburg, how these men, 30,000 men built one side, 30,000 the other, meeting each other in the middle of a battlefield, what kind of courage does that take?
00:37:26
Speaker
What kind of valor does that take? How brave do you have to be to do that? And I often think about those men in those eras compared to what I was 20 years ago. You know, were we as manly as they were? And I tell you, I don't
00:37:47
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know if I could face that, that type situation. So what I'm trying to get is I think, I think generational, it changes. I think we're getting less and less masculine, manly. Those were men. Those were men. And, you know, in, in my time, you know,
00:38:17
Speaker
You know, they were some less masculine men, but I think it's getting worse. I think the further we go, it's getting worse. Luckily, you know, one of my sons, I mean, you know, I can see his traits in me. Some of the guys that I work with, very young, 20, 21, 22 years old, no masculinity to them.
00:38:45
Speaker
no manliness to them. And I think a lot has to do, you know, when we were growing up, we didn't have cell phones. We didn't have the things that we have now, in which I think the instruments that people use now, I think that's kind of leading to being less masculine for certain men. Not all, but a lot of it. But I don't see, I see it getting worse.
00:39:16
Speaker
And I don't even know what the next generation of kids are gonna be. I mean, you can go, you can look up in a dictionary. You can go to Wikipedia right now. Go ahead. We talked about this. If you'd like to share what you know. What is a man? I'm gonna put my glasses on because I wrote it down. Okay. Okay. This says in Wikipedia now, if you click on it,
00:39:44
Speaker
It says, new definition of a man, an adult who lives and identifies as male, even though they might have been born as a different sex. That alone right there should tell you exactly what's in store for men in the future. It's scary times. I mean,
00:40:15
Speaker
Really, I don't like to get political. I like to keep to myself that people do what you want to do. But I honestly feel that masculinity is going away quickly. It's going to be hard to find real good men. I mean, there's a lot now. Don't get me wrong. But I think the next generation is in for big trouble. Yeah, I agree. And it's the devices and the instruments. It's the food.
00:40:44
Speaker
It's the stress. I mean, look, you know, you talked about walking tomorrow mountain. I know how human it is in North Carolina. I don't want to live there anymore because it's hard to take it is, you know, and, and so we've reached triple digits here this, this week in Arizona. So we're, you know, preparing for that. You know, thank you.
00:41:09
Speaker
Um, but you know, even now, I don't know if I could make that walk to Moro Mountain. It's, you know, cause I'm a little too comfortable in my air condition. Oh, absolutely. I mean that, yeah, that place a lot too. And so what I mean by that is who's walking to Moro Mountain now? Nobody they're on there. They're inside on their phones, stay uncomfortable, you know, using the devices for social connection. And I really believe, like you said, I had a lot of friends.
00:41:35
Speaker
you know, the science is here, people, us gathering and getting together, you know, going to the pool together, going to the lake together. You know, all of that stuff is good for the nervous system. And that's what, you know, helps us make better thoughts and behaviors, meaning, wait a minute, I'm actually a man. I can stand up and like, you know,
00:42:02
Speaker
you know, instead of being told what the devices are telling us, and you're right, I think it's shaping, you know, what the next generation is going to think of. And my, my hope is that, you know, that's why I titled this moments with men, you know, I call them like I see them, I see a man in front of me, you know, I'm not going to ask you, you know, how you identify and I see one man. So again, these labels, if it's so easy to label,
00:42:32
Speaker
even though I see you as a man, I could go, Oh, well, I don't know. I'll let him tell me his label. I mean, it makes me also be able to accept labels from, I mean, it's just this whole wishy washy place, you know, where I can also dismiss you. I can also say I don't need you because you don't even know if you're a man or not. Right. And I'm being told that manly hood isn't what
00:43:02
Speaker
What is the other balance of the femininity? We need that. We need that balance. But I'm being told I don't need that. And it's so simple. We say it and I hear it in women's circles. Oh, we don't need men. Oh, I'm trying not to need men. And dismissing men, they don't think about these things. They don't talk about these things. They don't know what they're doing. And how we just so easily dismiss a whole gender
00:43:32
Speaker
You know, and we talked about it before and I say it often, I can't even open a jar, much less build a road, build a house. We need men, we need men for sure. Right. You know, and I don't need, um, you know, a lot of men, like you said that, you know, that don't have that mailing list. They're also not going to be able to build the roads and, and build the homes and all the stuff. So, um, I appreciate that kind of, you know,
00:44:01
Speaker
fighting for the noble cause of masculinity. I hope that I'm wrong. I hope something changes. I don't see it changing, but something's going to have to change because you're exactly right about everybody on their devices. I was coming through bait in the other day, and I mean, it's summertime. School's out. There's nobody on the streets.
00:44:30
Speaker
Nobody. Nobody in the school yard playing basketball. When we were going up, people were riding bikes, playing basketball. Kids were everywhere. People would run us off. Everywhere. Nobody. Kids were everywhere. We were at the lake. We had our boarders go to the store. That was as far as you could go that way and into the lake as far as you could. I didn't have any boarders. You didn't, but we did have a few boarders along the way.
00:44:57
Speaker
Um, but you're right. And, um, it's, it's taking us away from that connection, that social connection that keeps people able to handle whatever's happening in their home. We're missing out the small things that, that prepare you for when you get out. Yeah. Those childhood experiences that prepares you. I mean, if you get through childhood and you, and you know, you, you don't experience anything hard, how can you become
00:45:27
Speaker
hard, not saying that hard is good all the time, but you don't want to be solved. It's both. Yes. I hope we're trying. So, so again, I kind of always ask, you know, even though I'm trying to get us away from generalizations about all men and all women, let's generalize for a minute. And what would you say to men? You know, like, what would you say, come on men or let's do,
00:45:56
Speaker
Well, what would you say? Well, especially with men that have families, because I know all men do not have families, but the men that have families, step up and be the provider, be the protector.
00:46:19
Speaker
You know, just look after your family the best way that you can. You know, it's not always going to be easy. You know, for the people, the men that do not have families, what can I say to them that would help them? You know, I don't really know because I don't think I've ever been in that situation where
00:46:49
Speaker
you know, because you know, you have always been married. I've never been single very long. So, you know, I'm not really sure what single men do really.
Support in Marriage
00:47:00
Speaker
But as far as a man with a family, yeah, I think the most important thing is, you know, to be the provider, to be the leader, to be the spiritual leader. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Okay. Well, I'm going to ask the other way too, because
00:47:17
Speaker
You've had, you've been married, how long have you been married? Okay, let me do the math. Okay, I can do the math, you wrote it down, you told me. Okay, he was married in, he was married in 92, so it would be what, 32 years then August. Okay. 32 years in August, yeah. Well, congratulations. So there's, there must be a balance, it's working, right? There's a balance with the, you know, your role, what you see as your role, what you see as your role.
00:47:48
Speaker
And so what would you say to women? Like how has that worked for you? How has that supported you? What has your wife been able to do for you to support your role as the protector, the provider, the man in the house?
00:48:02
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I can, I can also say that she's, she's always supported me and, you know, everything that I've done, every decision that I've made, she's always, whether she didn't like it or not, you know, she supported it, you know, no matter if it failed, you know, she supported that. So, I mean,
00:48:24
Speaker
The most important thing I could think of for a woman to support their man is to definitely do that. Be supportive. Be there for them. A lot of men don't like to talk. And I'm one of them. I mean, I won't lie.
00:48:44
Speaker
Um, communication is very important for sure. I mean, it's not easy. I mean, you know, it's not easy, but you got to balance there. Um, you know, me and me in neither space, you've got to be able to allow them to have their own space. Um, I like to call it, um, well, I'll tell you a quick little story. Lydia and I like to watch Christmas movies. And we watched this one movie.
00:49:11
Speaker
I'll make it real quick. There was a ghost in the house, and there was a woman trying to sell the house, and they met, and she could see the ghost, and he always said, I want you to leave my house because I want my solitude. And that's what I always tell my wife. I said, I need my solitude right now. She may say, I'm going to go to the grocery store good because I need my solitude now.
00:49:31
Speaker
So that's always been a pretty funny thing between us. But yeah, but she's been, she's been very supportive in everything that I've done. So I think that's the, the most important part of it. Well, that's interesting because again, and I want to go a little bit, I have a couple, one more thing I want to go into at least we'll see. But
00:49:53
Speaker
Um, to be supportive at those times, I mean, how many women just get offended? What do you mean? You don't want to be with me every moment of the day or, you know, or, you know, you'll have your solitude time when I do this, or they want to be supported in all of their healing in ways that they're going to go do, but then they don't turn around and offer the same support.
00:50:16
Speaker
um, for their men often. And I'm just saying some of the experience either I've done myself or I hear, you know, on, on our, on our side, on the other circles here.
How Do Men Express Emotions?
00:50:27
Speaker
So, and I think when I first mentioned this podcast to you, the little text conversation we had, it was, it was kind of like, you know, like you said, men don't often like to talk, you know, they do need their space. But, but I don't know, is it that they don't,
00:50:44
Speaker
like to talk or they don't have a space to talk? You know, is it both? And then what would that look like, I guess, to have that place where you could emote more? I think we've talked about, and this is, I'm tying this together, because I think you mentioned, even when your mom passed, like having more emotions, having more feelings than you spoke about, or then you had a place to speak about. So again,
00:51:12
Speaker
as much as you want to share about that. But I wonder how much men don't want to talk or they don't know how to, or they don't know how to have a place to. So just opening that up a little bit. Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with men that they don't really know how to talk. Some subjects may be uncomfortable
00:51:40
Speaker
to talk about. Some men may feel like what's the need to talk, unless there's an issue or something. My wife and I, if there's issues, we talk it out.
00:51:59
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. I'm not really sure, you know, how some people deal with the talking aspect between the man and the wife as far as being married. Right. Well, I'm just going to mention this really quick because it just came across my plate. There's a man, some people may have heard of his work. His name is Martine Prettell, and he does this really wonderful talk.
00:52:27
Speaker
a few years ago at the Minnesota men's conference called on grief and praise. And he puts it together, meaning that to grieve someone or something, a way of life, a parent, a marriage, whatever, um, is to actually praise it also. Right. It's to say, well, I praise the fact that it was alive. That's why I'm grieving so much. Right. Um,
00:52:54
Speaker
Right, so they go together in his culture, they're inextricable, they go together. But in this culture, right, especially men aren't allowed that emotion, that emotive response, the grieving, right, because you should just have it wrapped up. And it goes all the way to military and everything else. We're told it's a disorder to have deep feeling.
00:53:18
Speaker
I mean, some experiences the soldiers have had ought to have deep feeling that come along with it. But we're, we tell them it's a disorder to feel that deeply. So we don't ever get to work it out. That's what I'm saying. And like you said, I just want to bring it to what you said. What's the need?
00:53:37
Speaker
You know, men often think, what's the need of talking it out? What's the need and all that? And I'm kind of bringing up, here's the need. And so how many men or how many of all of us, all of us, but especially men, because you're not supposed to have those kinds of responses, are walking around without having that ability to speak it out, you know? Maybe because like, what's the need? Well, and again, how many generations have we been told, yeah, what's the need? It does no good.
00:54:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm guilty. I mean, I'm guilty of the, the not talking part. Um, it's just like when my mom, when my mom passed, um, yeah, I had, I had a lot of grief, but the people around me probably couldn't see that, you know? Um, and, and I never, I never talked to my wife about the grief that I was feeling. Um,
00:54:36
Speaker
I think in my situation, I don't know if it's toxic masculinity to not be able to talk to someone about your vision, but it's just not what I do. I don't want people to see any weakness in me.
00:54:57
Speaker
And I feel like, it may not be true, but I feel like that if, if I talk about something like that, they're going to look at me as being weak and I don't want to look weak in front of my kids. I don't want to look weak in front of my wife. So, you know, I've never, I've never expressed how I really felt about that. And, and to be honest, I really don't even think that I have grieved properly her passing. I thought of that. I don't think I have.
00:55:28
Speaker
I don't know if that's just, I don't know if that's just me. I think that's the difference in men. Some men will be able to express their feelings. I've seen grown men cry. I mean, manly men, I mean, these men are, they're men and I've seen them cry. And that manly man over there, I've never seen him cry. I don't do that. I'm sure I will at one point,
00:55:58
Speaker
But I don't want to say it, but me personally, I see it as a sign of weakness. Yeah. And I'm probably wrong for feeling that way, but that's the way I view it. And I think a lot of men view that if they see another man showing his emotion of grief, that's a sign of weakness. I think so. Yeah.
00:56:28
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for speaking that, really, because it's really the, I don't know, the seed point, the crux of what I'm doing here and why we're having this conversation and why I have these conversations, because it's parsing out. What is it that's just this primal masculinity and is a sign of weakness if you're not showing that? And what is it that, and I'm just offering this,
00:56:55
Speaker
this work by Martin Praktel, because he's from Guatemala, and he talks about what it's like in their village when someone, for instance, if it was a leader even, perhaps, that lost someone that they loved, well, it would be automatic that we know he's taking time off to grieve. And I mean, ugly grief, right? And people would come around, like not just one person, the one person you know and trust, and you can be crying with, but the village would come around.
00:57:24
Speaker
Right. And witness not try to fix it, not try to make you come on, do get up, get better, get over it, not do that, but allow you that time. Right. Because that was also praise. So I just again wonder how much of that is and this could come from your leadership nature. Right. That part of that is your nature, that it it would be a chink in the armor, so to speak. Right. And that that makes some sense.
00:57:54
Speaker
But there's also the combination, the balance with the heart, right? And then how much have we been told it's weak to show that emotion, which means women think it's weak too, and you better not, which now you don't have a place because we're truly, if men are going to be able to have this emotive expression, it's probably going to be with women.
00:58:18
Speaker
Right. Probably because the men are like, Hey, what are you doing, dude? Okay. Well, so if women don't think you ought to have it either, then where are you going to have it? Right. So, so I'm kind of saying, you know, there's just a need for this space. It doesn't mean it's going to overwhelm men or women to feel these deep emotions. If it's just given the space, it will flow and be done. It's not going to be a forever
00:58:49
Speaker
And I think that's what a lot of especially protectors, providers feel that it would be it just be like, Oh my God, I'm getting, you know, my, my strength is getting doused out with all this, these tears. And, um, anyway, I'm just kind of opening that up because it's a different culture sees it completely differently. You know, perhaps this one, you know, and so again, just a question, is it, is it a part of manliness or is it what we've been told? No, you're weak. If you.
00:59:18
Speaker
if you show those things. It's definitely, it's definitely different between men. We're not all the same. I mean, we may all be manly men, but you know, we're not going to show the same emotions. We're not going to, we're not all going to be the same. Right. Well, and hopefully, um, I'll offer that, you know, again, we all have these different expressions and so not to feel guilty, right? If it's, if this is your particular,
00:59:48
Speaker
you know, expression and way and the nature that you are embodying, you know, to, again, it's the trillion dollar machine that tells us, no, you have to all fit into these things. And then we start making excuses as to why we don't fit into those things. Right. I guess I should emote more. Well, maybe not, you know, um, but just how do you see it? And that's really what I wanted to bring up. I think, I think me and, uh, definitely have a challenge ahead of them for sure.
01:00:18
Speaker
Yeah. My boy's generation. I think there's a definite challenge in this country anyway for real men to step up and take control, be leaders. We need it now more than ever. Right. It's actually what it was built on too, right? Yeah. Because I mean, we're dying out. I mean, generation X is, we don't have much longer. So it's up to the other generations to look at history.
01:00:49
Speaker
watch, you know, read about, you know, other men in different areas and see how alpha male they were. We got too many beta males running around. I mean, it's just the truth. It's sad, but it's just the truth. Right. Yeah. So we're going to have to have an awakening.
01:01:10
Speaker
Yes. You don't have to have an awakening. I don't know whether if it's the real men are going to have to start knocking the other men in the head and say, you know, you need to wake up. You know, things are changing. We need you to step up because we need you. The women need you. The family needs you. Yes. If you don't step up, who's going to?
01:01:34
Speaker
That's right. And no matter what they tell you, they can produce in the lab. We need men and women to keep the human race going. Absolutely. And I know something you just said, it'll come back to me in a minute. Um, but oh, the courage, cause it's going to take courage. It's going to take courage to buck the narrative, you know, and say, no, I'm actually a man. You can just call me a man. You know, you don't need to ask me what my pronouns, you know, um,
01:02:03
Speaker
to buck that narrative and to take their own children, you know, and go, no, we're gonna go over here and think like this, you know, and make sure we can continue that balance, the natural balance of things. So it is about courage and that is that masculine quality to have the courage. I mean, like you said, how many men today, no matter how courageous, maybe that Marine you helped create,
01:02:30
Speaker
would face the 30,000 person army, but not many. Right. Exactly right. Exactly right. And the army's coming. I mean, it's here. So who's going to face them? Right. And so we do need that. And so it takes the courage of the men who are coming up and seeing it. Like you said, you know, speak to these men. Hey, come on. You know how you do that, you know, so.
01:02:58
Speaker
You know, I would, you know, hopefully, you know, just, you know, I can instill that in my boys and maybe they can, you know, help that out. I mean, that's, you know, do what you can do. But I mean, there's consequences now for standing up for being a man. Absolutely. There's consequences. I mean, men are being accused of, I mean, a man can be accused of anything without evidence. You're guilty.
01:03:29
Speaker
I mean, it's tough for me now. I think so. Thank you. That's exactly why I'm doing this. I really feel that. I know it. I see it. It's not fair. I'm not all for the rise of the women over and above. That's just another patriarchal system. But with women in charge, it doesn't make any sense. We must work together on this and have the courage to keep the natural order of fame.
01:03:59
Speaker
Um, while we progress, you know, I'm not, you know, saying no technology or anything, but don't turn us all into lab rats saying we don't need men. We'll just do it in the lab instead. That's, that's, um, it's not going to work. It won't work, um, in the universe. So I really appreciate you kind of fighting for that cause, you know, and, and teaching your, your, your boys who are going to teach others because it does take some courage. And I think that's what we're.
01:04:28
Speaker
It seems like every talk I have, it comes down to that, having some courage to stand up. And if nothing else, maybe this time has helped us to see what we stand up for. And it's gonna get tougher because, I mean, it's just like, I mean, when I was growing up, you know, things were harder. Each generation, things get easier because of technology. Everything just gets easier. I mean, we didn't have air condition.
01:04:57
Speaker
when we went to school, you know? And what do we just say? And we, at easy times, make weak people. That's right. Exactly. Exactly. So getting back to the point, it's going to be tougher now for this generation to be real men, to step up, to be the man that we need them to be.
Generational Shifts in Masculinity
01:05:18
Speaker
It's going to be tougher because they've had it easy. They've never had any hard times. Not saying that people don't have hard times,
01:05:27
Speaker
But you got to live a little bit of it. You got to go through certain times like that, that makes you stronger. It's so easy now. I mean, you got air conditioning. You don't have to suffer in the heat and you know, you can call your friends on the phone. Heck, when we were young, you know, Friday after school, Hey, meet over here at three o'clock on Saturday. That's how our groups got together. So it was, it's different times, different times require,
01:05:56
Speaker
different methods for sure. Absolutely. And even learning history and reading about the men that went through these things, you have to really actually do your own. It's not going to be fed to you. Like these examples and stories of strong men and men that had to go through these things are not often fed to the people now. I'm not in education, but I can only assume I see the product that's not taught to boys coming up. They have no sense of what it would have taken
01:06:27
Speaker
They have no sense of what it would have felt like to walk the Mora Mountain, much less, you know, being a true battle with like real people with real guns and bayonets facing you, like 30 feet away from you. I have so much respect for that generation. Every time I go by a Civil War cemetery, I don't care if it's North or South. I mean, I just, I'm in awe of the bravery of those people. It was crazy. I mean, I hope that never happens again.
01:06:56
Speaker
Um, but while braving, we especially hope so at this point, right? Cause who's going to fight that kind of battle, but anyway, thank you for your bravery and your strength. Didn't come easy. It never does, does it? No, but I'm, but I'm.
01:07:20
Speaker
but I wouldn't change a thing. I would not change a thing. I mean, everything that I said, I'm not remembering eating. I wouldn't have it any other way, really, to be honest with you. Right. Well, it's made you the man you are today. Absolutely. And that's a pretty good one. So listen, thank you so much, James. If there's anything else you'd like to throw in before we go, please feel free.
01:07:50
Speaker
Um, no, I think, I think we've covered it. Yeah. Just, just, I'm just happy that I grew up in the era that I did. I think that was probably one of the greatest errors back in the early eighties and late seventies. I think that was just a great time. It was, and we were in pretty ideal, like little town. I always say that that time in my life was the time. I mean, we were mixed races and mixed cultures and every in the school.
01:08:20
Speaker
I mean, the counts lived separately, but the school, we were mixed in together and got along, it was beautiful. But did you notice that when you were that age? Did you understand that? Yes, I did. One lived on one side. So I never, I never, I never even considered that. I never even questioned, well, why are you living over there? And we're, because we're here on Saturdays playing basketball together. Yeah.
01:08:47
Speaker
It was such a beautiful kind of time, and even a time to be curious about the other, right? It was so, I don't know, it was just fun. It was before all the, we should be different and now we don't like you kind of phases. It was just... Every generation is going to say their generation is the best, but I'd be hard to find another era that was better than what we grew up in. Yeah.
01:09:12
Speaker
especially even though we didn't like, you know, have much or go places, whatever. We had everything we needed. And what a great foundation, you know, it's a really nice foundation. So I'm glad we're still in touch too. So thank you so much for this conversation. And I just really appreciate you doing this and opening up your, your perspective to us and showing us what it means to be a man to you. So thank you. Thanks for having me.
01:09:42
Speaker
Thanks, everybody.