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Moments with GEOF - Part 1
21 Plays4 months ago
"A real man isn't oppressive; a real man doesn't tell you what you should think."
Foundational lessons on the field and in the family were integral in Geof becoming the man he is today. Gaining skills, making mistakes and building confidence in the structure of supportive teams and a loving family has provided so much more than merely an excellent level of athleticism.
Geof's father is a previous guest on Moments with GENE by @Lizzie Moon · Zencastr so I was excited to hear how the values that GENE talked about showed up in my discussion with GEOF. It's easy to understand why his expression of masculinity include kindness and the ability to deeply listen.
Listen in to hear what else he has to say in this Part 1 of our rich, thoughtful discussion.
Here's the link to GEOF's father, GENE's episode:
Moments with GENE by @Lizzie Moon · Zencastr
Thank you for supporting my work with "Moments with MEN"!
Contact me with comments, insights and to talk about continuing the discussion ...
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode and Guest Jeff
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I am Lizzie Kay, and welcome to another episode of Moments with Men. And today, I am talking with Jeff. Hi, Jeff. Hi, how are you, Lizzie? I'm very well, a little warm, but I am. Very good. Yeah, so we're recording this in June.
Expressions of Masculinity
00:00:23
Speaker
And I'm in Arizona so it's a little warm here but yeah thank you so much for coming and sharing some moments with me as we explore different um different expressions of masculinity and what it means to be a man in this society. Yeah, from your perspective. Yes.
Jeff's Family and Childhood
00:00:42
Speaker
um I'd like to start with you just giving us some kind of background information. Where were you born? What kind of family structure did you have? What was the environment like when you during your formative years? Just give us a picture. You bet. I'm the youngest. I have an older sister, three years older. I had a mom and dad. So my mom passed about a year, and not quite a year and a half ago. ah I was very blessed with two unconditional loving parents. that were our parents first and friends later and became really good friends as we didn't need our parents as much anymore. So they did a great job. We were always close to our extended family. um We have my mom's side had seven aunts and uncles, 16 cousins. My dad's side had two brothers and two other cousins. So very different, but very very nurturing and very just fun.
00:01:36
Speaker
um And grew up mostly in a middle middle class town, Huntington Beach, Santa Ana, mostly Huntington Beach, about 200,000 people. So ah schools were big. I can't remember elementary school, but it was K
Educational Transitions and Adaptations
00:01:51
Speaker
through five. And then middle junior high, we called it, was 800 students. And my freshman year at public school, high school was over 4000 students. I loved it. It was a blast. It was a ah great community, you know, miles, mile and a half from the coast on ah on the beach. um So it was fantastic. And then I went to a prep school with 400 kids in New England, coat and tie, you know, it's spiky hair, cowboy boots, creepers and white pants in the wintertime and just, you know, so it was a totally different mix.
00:02:25
Speaker
but always had support and it' it's helped me throughout, you know, growing up, you know, goods and bad times. It's been very good. So good support with family. Good luck. Yeah. Wow. That's, that's, um, yeah, you've painted the picture. I can see it. So that must've been a big change from 4,000 students and hunting to beach to 400. Wow. yeah Absolutely was. I mean, you couldn't hide in a classroom instead of 45 kids in a class, you had 10. um And I worked hard to get season.
00:02:57
Speaker
these my first year, and eventually got A's and B's, but I had to learn how to really study. I usually, when the 4,000 kids, and it was my fault, not there, I just study in class. And I get A's and B's, you know, I never really had to apply yourself. So yeah, it's a different model. um But again, most of them are go getter. So it was different, but you're living in dorms at 15, you know, so you're kind of growing up. So coming home sometimes with tough kids, like, wait a minute, I'm an adult now, I can make my own decisions, but you're still 15 or 16.
Family Values and Masculinity
00:03:24
Speaker
so but you know it was different but there was other challenges you always occupied i was with other sports um and you know just meet friends from all over the mostly all over the country but there was international students so it was very kept you stimulated and not did not notice that difference okay good and all right so you had like really drastically different experiences yes formative years so Did you hear certain things like said to you? Were you given messages like, okay, Deb, this is what it means to be a man. And this is what you're going to need to do. Um, this is the path. So, I mean, okay, go ahead. Yeah. I can remember in elementary school being in fourth or fifth grade, maybe even third, uh, where my dad shared me, if you turn a project in with the name on it, it's your family name, you know, so, and.
00:04:18
Speaker
It resonated, you know, you don't want to embarrass them. You don't want to do so. Always do your best. Now that I screw up plenty in my life. Yeah. But that always stuck with me on, on always the ancestry. You know, we had a family Bible that we could actually see where we had all our lineage that came over from Switzerland. I'm sixth, fifth generation here. So you could, oh, I always had an attachment. And for me as being. I don't know if it's visual or tactile, just getting a piece that always made really cool sense to but learn the funny names of my ancestors in the past, you know, and what they did and how, where did they live. and um So that was always tangible. So that was one thing I think, you know, just to, you know, do the right thing, you know, don't embarrass. It wasn't talked about every day, but it resonated with me, you know.
00:05:04
Speaker
Um, so that was one thing, you know, and, and obviously having integrity and and living up to your word and and not cheating, all the, everything. And I even think what's masculine is anything that's pretty pretty virtuous. It's basically masculine, you know, it's, it's not provoking, but it's strong, you know, it's trustworthy, reliable, those kinds
Traits of Masculinity and Confidence
00:05:23
Speaker
of things. So, um, always thought to, I guess through growing up with, uh, activities, teachers, coaches, aunts, uncles, cousins, my dad, grandparents. Grandad, a big part of Mass Union to me, what rubbed off is athletics was always fun. Obviously as a kid running around playgrounds and you get into more structured play, I was able to travel around the world playing some sports, which I was very lucky, spend summer camps and playing in hockey and living with families in Quebec and Toronto in the summers. I mean, so it was very cool, but I always linked it up with, if you could be very academically driven,
00:06:03
Speaker
which it was always, I wasn't, I had to work at it. You know, it wasn't, I'd really go have fun with my friends, you know? But balancing that, have being a good athlete, being ah good in school and being like a, for the lack of a better role model was James Bond. He, cause he could always figure out stuff, you know? And he had a sense of humor about him, looked always nice. maybe not treat everybody so well, but you always had an answer for something, whether it was comedy or mostly it was pretty smart and lucky. So I kind of combined those as being very active, confident, you know, in school and and always being a problem solver to me, it was a good role of being masculine, I guess. You know, you did just kind of name some, like, I don't know, descriptions of masculinity in a way, right?
00:06:50
Speaker
or some descriptions, I guess there are many, but active. I mean, that's the masculine quality in men and women. Absolutely. That masculine quality is our actual quality. It's the goal and confidence and strength. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and like when I say virtuous, like, and and and you hit it and you're sorry, you said confidence, I'm like, yeah, confidence become it is, virtualr it is preparation, you have earned it. It is kind, you know, it's not ah the lack of confidence is, you know, people that have ah b bloated egos, or they're, you know, for winners, you know, just, they're just not fun to be around, you know, and, and sometimes they're good people, but they haven't figured that part out. So I think that's always part of it is always to take that success and share it with people who deserve it. Or how can you replicate that again, that's the goal. And failing, failing, I was looked at is a great learning opportunity.
Learning from Failure and Family Lessons
00:07:51
Speaker
So I wasn't afraid that they really fail. It didn't wasn't fun all the time. But yeah,
00:07:57
Speaker
But it's that confidence that gave you the courage to just go ahead, try things, try to figure things out, problem solve. I think that's also one of the skill and qualities, problem solvers. what what What do we say? Women say, oh, you just always want to fix things. I'm like, well, yeah, right? It's a problem solving kind of thing. It's not a bad thing. um And then and it's also kind. Like you said, it doesn't have to be, you know, strong masculinity does not equal. violence, anger, um overpowering, control. That's not what it equals. And I think strong masculinity, there's an attempt to to diminish that strength of masculinity. Yeah. Because it's like labeled in that way. And it's, you know, it's just not that. So um yeah, and so you so you
00:08:50
Speaker
You had actually someone tell you and I'm going to take this moment to spill the beans a little bit because it keeps through with what what I heard your dad say. Yeah. So I had um an episode with Jean just a while back who is Jeff's father. Yeah. And one of the things that he said in just the first few minutes that he had heard about what it means to be a man is basically in so many words, more words than this, but don't embarrass your mother meaning me it or your family, your name. yeah Don't be out there acting foolish, making the name look bad. And I just don't know if people hear it in a way that, that like you said, you heard it and it resonated because it makes you feel
00:09:36
Speaker
like proud of your ancestry, proud of your, you carry that pride and instead of hearing it as a, don't tell me what to do, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I could, I could see generations ago when everybody lived in the same town for generations, my dad came out West from Ohio. So, It's not like we had that family around, but like it still resonated with me about being doing the right thing, even though it wasn't going to tarnish my cousins, aunts and uncles. Now my family, my mom's side lived all up in Klamath Falls, Oregon. And there was, I think out of the eight brothers and sisters, I think
00:10:10
Speaker
five or six of them and there were like 15, 14 or 15 of the cousins lived there. So that was more of that old town feel where probably my dad had heard it from his dad and and and so forth. But it still was enough of a calling for me to, it ah it impacted me.
Role of Sports and Activities in Masculinity
00:10:26
Speaker
So. Yeah. And I can see in a positive way where some might take that in a different way. Yeah. Okay. So that was and kind of an overt messages message. What did you just grow up learning that it meant to be? You know, ah what your what was your like choice along the way, i say how you were going to express as a man, be a man.
00:10:47
Speaker
you know, from what you were seeing or experiencing. That's great. I probably learned a lot from activities, playing on the streets. I feel I was lucky enough. i was Out of the 16 cousins I had, I was the second and youngest on the street I lived in growing up in Hainton Beach. I was one of the youngest kids, so I always got to play with the older kids and kind of get beat up in a fun way, not not mean. But I thought that was a great opportunity to learn because I had to overcome some physical um maybe a little scared, you know, when a guy in high school tackles you and you're only, you know, in fourth grade. So, but, you know, they weren't trying to harm me, but it was just, you had to get through that. Once you did, you succeeded. You know, once you succeed, the older kids start including you more. They start passing you the ball or throwing you the ball more. So, and they don't hold up on you as much if you start getting success. So, they're always challenging you. Probably with ego. I mean, that's that playground banter that's good. I mean, you go out and play and
00:11:44
Speaker
a kid socks you for no reason, you're figuring out what is that about. And then, you know, you work, you learn on things. um And the other part was the failing was um I didn't like to be told no. um So I would try to out think myself and then I wouldn't put myself in a position get to get told no, which I think brought on a lot of I had to learn a lot more hard things. My parents always said, don't bring anything at the 11th hour. So if I knew I wanted to go over and stay over at my buddy's house, I knew they're going to say no. So of course I wouldn't ask them until, you know, that night, you know, instead of a week ahead of time. So I had to learn from that way. I had fears more that way, not wanting to be told no. And I didn't want to disappoint my parents, you know, and that goes even when I was playing college sports. um We would have meetings with our coach and my roommate.
00:12:37
Speaker
He wanted to be called every name in the book. He wanted to be degraded, yell that to motivate him. I was like, Corey, you're nuts. But he was nuts. But he that got him motivated. For me, all I needed was a look. you know Like, hey, Myers, pick it up. And I'd be loud and clear. I hear that. So I realized everybody's a lot different on how their input output is. But for me, it was always learning from putting yourself out there, but also, gosh, why am I being Um, so unproductive by being afraid of told no and not even we come with girls. Maybe I would only pursue the ones that would pursue me. The door might be open versus me just going out there and asking, uh, what do you want to go out? Go around. I think we would say back in your kids, but you know, it was always like, uh, kind of feeling out the into you, they not into you. So, and that's all going on. You're not all conscious of it, but looking back, you know, those are some hurdles, you know, some good and bad that I thought I had.
00:13:36
Speaker
Yeah, okay, interesting. I'm gonna go back to
Family Dynamics and Support System
00:13:39
Speaker
that. but i um As you're talking about playing on the playground, I was envisioning yes not to diminish men in any way, but I was envisioning puppy play, because that's what we do, right? They go and take each other and they steal the ball and do all that, yeah but it is in order to learn how to defend themselves, to throw their instincts, yeah um through an activity like that and then you also could see from your family I can see from your family structure you could see that there was a structure you mentioned it that ah age order right I knew I was in this age they were in this age there is this kind of hierarchy in a way that you respected and that you could learn who
00:14:24
Speaker
Right. Absolutely. It was great. look And I got my feelings hurt because I wanted to be included with my older guy cousins. But when they're going out there buddies that maybe have a beer and pizza after their baseball game, I really couldn't go. And I didn't understand. I just wanted to drink, you know, probably seven up and play some video games and just hang out with them. But they were probably certain meeting girls, hanging out with their friends. Yeah. But in a way, I feel like having a lot of that family structure around you, like yeah do there were cousins that were this old and family brothers and you could really see it. Well, I think a lot of people see that when they're very isolated in their family or they're like a child only mother, they don't really see that or they can understand it in the world. Yeah. And I could see my cousins that I love dearly and my uncle's tongue and males.
00:15:16
Speaker
were so good to me, very kind. I wasn't blind or they messed up in their lives. Some of them significantly, some I'm not, but I still love, you know, so it was good to have that experience on saying, wow, this person just, what are they thinking? You know, they're having problems. And, but you still learn like respect what they were to you and what they're trying to be and realize that we're going to go down that path too. So it's, it's, you know, I guess it's, it's not that you're judging them and and we're all biased with our family. We're either really hard on them or we give them passes. You know, my mom gave me pass. I'm like, mom, you you can't complain about that person. I did the same. No, no, no, no. You know, you're, you're my son. You know, but
00:15:55
Speaker
Anyways, I think those are like your point out it's really good to observe and just be in that and to see like that's just life It's struggle. It's success. It's it's all that you know Yeah, and get to see people close to you get to see those things working out and structures around you because I can see where that helped you be able to go out and be courageous enough to even play on the playground with older people because it's like I can I can I'll be supported and You had that under underlying feeling of there's a ah wider net here and ah oh like a i don't know just I keep hearing structure, but this greater kind of structure is
Balancing Freedom and Structure
00:16:35
Speaker
supportive. of yeah and i know And I think the structure is almost
00:16:41
Speaker
the opposite to with lack of structure, but there are boundaries, you are able to go free and create, which is I think what growing up, even and up through college should be about very robust, you should be challenging things and stimulate and not pat on your back and everything's perfect. I think that's a part of it. And we'll get into this later. But my best friend to this day, I met him in fourth grade, he was the elementary school bully. Uh, he turned out to be the biggest, softest, kindest teddy bear, like a lot of them do. But so when you're talking playground, we get out to play dodgeball. I think in our group, we played German dodgeball, whatever that is. You're still throwing a ball at somebody and eliminating them. Well, usually, you know, you got two captains and they pick teams. Well, he would pick who he wanted and then everybody else was on the other team.
00:17:27
Speaker
And since I was a new kid, I didn't earn his grace. He didn't know what I could do. So he just picked the best ballplayers and girls that he could take. And then it was everybody else. And that's how he ran it. And nobody argued, you know, until we got a little older, then it kind of worked out. But it was funny. I always bring it up. I just saw him the other week. I say, man, you're, you're the kindest, but you were such a bully, you know, when you're a kid and you kind of have a laugh at it. But that was just defining. He saw that volume or that space and he went and took it. you know and of course another kid would try to take it and they would usually throw some blows and then they were buddies you know and then everything was fine you know so kind of how it went you know interesting interesting and how cool again for you
00:18:13
Speaker
you know you guys kind of again through this family structure and thing around you you're able to go people are like this and then they change and then yeah this and we don't just cut them off you know because they act as a kid you know absolutely um but people have those different experiences like that so i can see where that really you know So how okay, so how did all these experiences kind of come into or where do you want to go next with?
Community Influence and Sports Culture
00:18:37
Speaker
How did it form like who you are today or the experiences and with relationships up until now, wherever you want to? Absolutely. Well, I was very conscious of my community and it like say it was a booming growing ah spot that their football team at the time was, you know, number one in the country when I was in elementary school. I mean, it was big. I mean, for the
00:18:58
Speaker
late 70s, early 80s, they'd play in the pro stadiums against their rivals. I mean, you know, you get 20,000 people watching in football game, which is kind of unheard of back then. So there was, again, a whole community and the neighboring communities were just as booming because they're all being developed. um So you have these rivalries, you know, and then you're friends with them, but then they go to that school. So they're nerds and, you know, they think we're nerds, you know, and it's all fun, but I guess when you start looking at relationships, it was always friendship through sports with girls, and you know your buddies, and then there's some things that creep me out, all these. So, and it was a cool thing in our community.
00:19:37
Speaker
Like when I'm in elementary school, the high school athletes work out, then they usually go to the beach and then they go to the back to the school and they work out on the fields running sprints or patterns or whatever. So we're seeing that as we're growing up. And at the time we get into junior high and high school, we're doing, it's the same culture. And so all of these people you look up to that are you know quite a bit older and there's brothers and sisters in town, you look at and then when you start getting interested in girls. You're saying, hey, wait a minute. And again, this is just my my issue was, why is this guy in junior college like trying to take a girl out and migrate in eighth grade? like It was creepy.
00:20:16
Speaker
But then there's a mental, emotional, of course, you know, an older guy with a car and being attractive to them that's, you know, fit and all that. And we're just, you know, barely got done blowing our nose, you know, and don't have basically hair and we have crackling voices. And again, that's an extreme, but then you see when you get into high school, again, 4,000 kids, and you see a senior in high school wanting to date a 14, 15 year old girl was just, to me, kind of was creepy. Not that, not that everybody is wrong, but that's a big age difference at that time. And so that impacted, I know. And and so most of the time I would subconsciously would date girls my age or a little older, you know, and I'm sure there was a subconscious, and probably unfairly that I put my brain like saying, well, that creeped me out when I was in junior high to see these older guys hitting on girls my age. I'm not doing that. Now when you get older, it's different, right? When you start getting
00:21:06
Speaker
the young adults, the ages aren't that big a deal. But ah it was interesting just to see that. and And like I say, to know some of the guys who are extremely creepy, I grew up with, I didn't respect women. Some of them have become the best fathers and husbands I've seen. you know there's a change And vice versa, there were guys that were really nice that somehow ah switched around and maybe they felt like they've gotten beat up in their relationship. So they don't treat women as well as they used to. And I always scratch my head saying, what happened? That's not absolute, but there's enough to see like, so like as my best friend was a bully in elementary school, he didn't turn, it so that's not your career, right? When you were growing up in development. So the guys that may were pursuing girls when they were, you know, 18 and pursuing a 15 year old, maybe it was, who knows, you know, so, but it just impacted me to to a degree, I say more than degree. So I don't know why, you know, but it's just how it did.
00:22:01
Speaker
Well, you know, from what you've said already, it seems like you kind of don't mind a challenge and you don't mind being, or you perhaps were more interested in being met intellectually. I'm not saying you weren't young and had hormones and all the stuff too, but it wasn't just about that. Maybe, and maybe that really, what? It may be a turning point for you. It's not about that. It's really more about this for me. So how did that turn out? Relations from there. yeah you know So how did it, okay, so from there in high school, you saw that. So it was starting to form how what you kind of wanted in relationships. So how'd that go?
Relationships and Personal Growth
00:22:45
Speaker
yeah i And now being apart was different. So I was always,
00:22:51
Speaker
I guess it's not that I wasn't grounded, but I would come home on vacations, you know, from being at prep school in Massachusetts and being away at college. So, which is fine. You're moving around and playing sports. So of course you have some relationships. um Most, I don't know, thank goodness. I didn't have many psychotic or just awful ones, you know, like, but yeah, you do have things where like, Hey, I'm treating this person well. And why are they just, you know, sometimes the better you treat people, the worse they treat you back. And I've been guilty too. I remember, receiving a Valentine's card from a girl when I was ah probably in my mid 20s. I was single and hopefully yeah and ah she left it at my work and the connection I said I'm not really dating you yet but I'm interested and she just did a kind Valentine's card but I was so not ready that because it came to my place of work that was my you know it was
00:23:44
Speaker
I owned the building or the facility. It was, I'm like, you know, if my clients, how does this get out? I'm not even dating you. It really put me off. And I thought about it years later. I'm like, what was I so insecure about? Like that really pushed me over the top. Like I've done the same things. I've sent a girl card and flowers and we're doing great. And then all of a sudden it seems like that ruined it. You know, so I've done that. And then I've been on the other end, and you're like saying, what is going on in our time of our life? Why we misinterpret kindness sometimes, and and it's part of growing, you know, and it was easy. Then I looked at that. After looking at why, you know, maybe why didn't I get respected when I did something very kind for somebody, then I look back and I saw, well, why did that Valentine's card freak me out so much? I still don't have an answer for it other than I just wasn't ready.
00:24:32
Speaker
And I know she was just being kind, you know, so why did I handle it so poorly? You know, so I guess those are learning lessons, you know, to say, OK, why? And then to understand, OK, when I did something nice, like got flowers, wrote poetry, and then they get reciprocated. Well, I'm like, well, maybe I unintentionally creeped them out for where they were, you know, so. And then you start maybe you don't want to hold back, but then you start looking at saying, what kind of game is this? You know, and that's where I think the mind gets into it, where it's really not a game, it's just everybody in their journeys at a different, you know, meshing point where sometimes they get along and sometimes it just doesn't work out. Yeah. Then we can kind of get into quantum physics and it's all a mirror of us and where we are at the moment. And, you know, kind of vacillating a bit. Then, of course, we're going to have relationships that might be a little bit like that. um So, OK, well,
00:25:27
Speaker
Where would you like? to I know we've you know we've talked to before and I know we have some ideas and i i yeah we can take those a few different roads right here. So I'm going to let you kind of take the floor and see where you'd like to go. Yeah, go ahead. you So a big thing that impacted me too was reading about false masculinity and doing stuff and and that's where I I see a big issue with, you know, I looked at myself, where is that? Like masculinity, as we talked about being kind, being strong, it shouldn't be provoking. It should, it doesn't mean it's nonviolent, but it's not aggressive. Then violence it would be for protecting ah around you, you know, you're being that way, but you know, being reliable.
00:26:08
Speaker
So false masculinity, if I look at it through sports or through our leaders in military government, builders, false masculinity is just an absolute um ah stereotype of what people think masculinity is. Biggest guy, you know, like Bluto and Popeye, you know, where that's not it at all. You know, it's about being calm, making the right choices, you know. ah I was reading some stuff about the Empire State Building. I didn't realize it took one year to build. March of 1913, it was done in March of 1931, and it was open May of 1931. So how did they build this beautiful building in just over a year and a few days?
00:26:48
Speaker
You know, and then we have a couple of things going on right now, which you think you need go getters and doers in a community. And you saw where they get pictures of where they're eating lunch, you know, on beans, you know, you know, hundreds of feet off the air, just absolutely bonkers. um And then you have, we had this bullet train idea in California, where it was supposed to cover like, I don't know, 750 miles, and they've been building it for over a decade. And I think they quit. billions of dollars, and they've only built 600 meters of it. A track at your local community is 400 meters in one lap. So you're saying, buffoons, you know, and then you have these EV chargers, you know, they said they were going to build 500,000 stations. And to this date, they have seven built, you know, trillions of dollars. So you're thinking, how do they build
00:27:37
Speaker
you know, this Empire State building so well. And then you look at these other examples, which I, you know, and then that becomes in politics, which is that, but I think a masculinity is like, where's the virtue? Why aren't we getting things done? You're not doing this for the community. It's it's it's a whole nother game. So I guess that would be false masculinity is when you look at all these things that are inoperable, right? And that's kind of, we need our males to be, Masculine and that's different for everybody on how they're impacted, but there are still those rules of helping community. You know, and being better men in the society to create and then you see less crime better education people moving up the generations blown economically.
00:28:22
Speaker
I think there's a whole long-term process. I love when people use music or sports or other activities, acting, singing, when they do to build, make people better. My dad always said, if there's a but you take a diamond, it's just a piece of coal, or if it's uncut, it's nice, but it's not great. But when they start cutting the facets and polishing it, then it really becomes beautiful. And he goes, that you know, and I do. man if we can do that to our body, but um our our soul, by cutting our facets, being, experiencing many different things, but polishing our body, it just becomes a more beautiful than harsh. um So that's why if we have, I guess I was getting to activities, sports, arts, and we learned from that too, how do we become better people down the road? It doesn't matter if you won the state championship or number one in the country, it's like, what kind of dad are you going to be? What kind of husband are you going to be? What kind of,
00:29:18
Speaker
brother in the community you're going to be. um right Again, a lot a lot of our most impactful people that I look at back in my community were just maybe okay athletes or students, but they had a drive. They just kept getting better and then you see what they do. They worked in law enforcement and they're retiring and giving back and coaching at the local schools or nothing, you know just being an impact, which is I guess that's what I'm looking for versus the weakness of that false masculinity is look at the car I drive, not that there's anything wrong with buying a car that you love or or you know how many ladies I'm with or how many vacations I go on. I mean, there's never enough. I mean, we we know that in life. there's never You don't get happiness through those. So I think you actually just you know explained part of my premise here is that masculine,
00:30:10
Speaker
um I'll call it, you know, there are many names, sacred masculinity, true masculinity, instinctual, whatever those things are, um has been ah replaced by patriarchy. Patriarchy is more about materialism, yeah how we're over one over the other. It's not puppy play on the sports field anymore so that we can learn to be better people and learn how to you know kind of play, fight, and and you know take our challenges, take our hits, help each other grow. It's not that. It's like, I must win at all costs and take you out in a way and be at the top. That's patriarchy. yeah I'm not saying you know men, the masculine doesn't like to win, of course.
00:30:54
Speaker
but But like you said, it is interesting. Any celebrity, any sports star, anybody that's asked who most impacted you. Oh, it was my coach so-and-so, right? Back in the hometown, I'm not saying every one of them, but that's what you hear a lot. So those are our like heroes. And it's really also part of what I'm doing here is talking to normal men doing the heroic thing you know in there yeah their homes, their families, their communities. I mean, I have to be part of the patriarchy, you don't have to be a celebrity wrote 10 books to be doing it. So yeah, absolutely. I mean, the impact just by giving time and care what you can do to to younger generations is it's all about you're not going to get a plaque everywhere, people might recognize it and
00:31:46
Speaker
ah Yeah, you said it on the head, and I do have your spirit, mind and body, the masculinity part, I believe is all layered into one. And and again, polishing that facet or that gemstone that we are um because they they depend on each other know because if if it gets all about the body and physical and we forget about the spiritual and the cognitive cognition, that that balance is where we want to be. And it should be dynamic. It shouldn't be just, you know, perfect. It should be moving parts and what we need. You know, I know when I move my body, I feel much better just to go walk and think and talk. And it doesn't mean I can't go out and go crazy. Like I used to, I just don't recover as fast, but I don't want to lose it, but I'm more cognitive to get better sleep. I'm more patient, you know, and those kinds of things eat better, keep the inflammation. You just feel better about yourself. It's nice when I tuck a shirt and I'm like, wow.
00:32:36
Speaker
I'm not embarrassed and sometimes i oh I better not pull it out a little this way so I don't get that. you know Then the the the weird creepy subconscious gets into play and the insecurity is magnified. um And being humble is understanding those insecurities and working on them. And again, as you get more experience, I think diving into the spiritual is great you know in the mind. I shared some time with a Cherokee medicine man and he knew the Bible very well and it was very cool just to hear him talk about things. and people talk about religion and spirituality. I'm like, he was great in my life because I definitely grew a gear of spirituality. You know, I learned to go be outside and to look at things the way he taught me, you know, all the, you know, two legged, three legged winged things and everything out there. And just, it was so cool, you know, and then you start looking at all these, um I mean,
00:33:29
Speaker
um I got a little herb garden point out here in my patty, you know, it's just so fascinating to see what critters attracted by certain things in this whole soil. If I get the soil right, all the different herbs and cactuses and plants are healthier. And when I screw up, man, they don't like it. So the whole biosphere, you know, and I just I think that's very humbling, ah very nurturing, you know, so. And again, I was blessed to be We do a lot of grounding where we go sit out in the the ground and doing that for a while and like to be in the sunlight, especially sun up and sun down. My wife's better at than I am. But, you know, growing up, I would say 90 days in the summer straight on the beach, you know, I see again all the negative ions in the sand that I didn't know about in the water, the salt water, which same as ah in the womb.
00:34:18
Speaker
I know it's getting up, but it's just, you realize why you always felt so tired, but you felt so refreshed at night, you know, and you slept well, being in the sun and doing things and eating good things, you know? So anyways, that was, I think that's, you're looking back and seeing your healthiest and growing times. I was lucky to have a lot of that environment, uh, really good. And we try to keep that now, you know? Right. Well, I mean, you were lucky and you, pur you know, you're not the only one who has said, I took myself to a place to be in a different environment in order to get a different perspective, to get a, um I don't know, a step closer to wholeness in whatever way that meant for me. And I think that still takes what we've been talking about, some courage. It takes some courage to go, I am going to leave this for a while, could be a family, could be a job, could be whatever you're normally doing.
00:35:14
Speaker
and do something different in order to, you know, go through that shamanic process, like like something dying and get a new idea and way. So, um and so has that been, you know, something you do kind of often or how can, like, great the importance of that, you know? Yeah, i'll speak to that a bit. It is huge importance. You know, I used to take time and find things as I got older that would, give me that reason to get away and plan. I'm very good on if I have goals, I can do things. If I don't have goals, my guilt level is low. So I'm just like, i'm I'm not motivated by that. But if I have a reason why, then I'll do it. And the feeling good, you know, like, it's not fun to wake up every morning, right when you wake up and jump in a cold shower.
00:36:02
Speaker
But now I feel bad when I don't, I'd feel it. But, you know, at first I bargain. I did it two times a week, then three times. And now it's like, okay, I do it every day. And when I don't, I just feel different, you know? So I know the rewards and I know how to act out because now I'm in a nine to five job the past 10 years, which I've never had. I've always had my own schedule work outside on the field with teams and athletes. It's not bad, but it's a different mindset when I'm on a spreadsheet under bad lighting all day. I'm managing 30 people with all that good and bad. It's a great learning experience, but but it takes a lot of energy you know away from me. but So when I don't get that energy back to me, and I love people, but I think I'm an introvert because I recharge by being alone. I like my alone time, but I'm around people. I love to be around people and talk, but that's not how I charge my battery. you know I need to be alone. so And when I don't do that, I gain a little bit of weight,
00:36:59
Speaker
I don't sleep as well, probably a little bit more irritable, you know, and it's just a cascading effect on, on what you do. And so by taking that time being selfish, you know, not in a bad way, it you become, you give a lot more, you know, you give to you and selfish isn't bad, and you know, it's, I don't, I'm not saying it is, it's, but we have to take time for who we are. And I like to evaluate what am I going through now and why, you know, where's my art in it, you know, and where, do things I want to learn from and and then look forward to the future and different things. So taking that time and and for me in the last five, 10 years, it's been I love to be on the trails. I love to be at a park or I don't get to the beach as much. I live in Irvine, which is about a 25 minute ride versus a you know two, five minute bike ride.
00:37:49
Speaker
um So, but we do go there, take our dog to the beach a couple of times a summer. But yeah, I look forward to getting out there on the trails and just looking. And luckily I'm at a place where I can see road runners. sometimes coyotes, you know, different kinds of raptors and birds. And it's just kind of cool to see once in a while snakes, but not too often I'll let them go. But they're just something about, I've seen a bobcat, but it's just so nice just to be in that moment on the trail, whether I'm walking, running, or sometimes even just sitting down on a boulder, you know, and just looking at me. So yeah. I think you're speaking to, I mean, this is true for all of us, but I would still say, especially for men because they're told,
00:38:31
Speaker
in general, even though I'm not trying not to generalize, but in general, but yeah holds that they don't feel, they can't feel, what's the point in being all, you know, watching butterflies and sitting on a boat, breathing in a fresh air, what's the point in that? You have things to do, things to fix, all this kind of stuff. um And so you did, at some point, spend time with, the you know, a Cherokee, and it was telling you, hey, look at this, look at that, and it kind of opened your eyes, and now you're even speaking to the same things. I go out there, and I love, you know, just looking at these things, But you know what you're actually saying is I learned how to feel. I learned how to feel what my body feels like and what it needs and how it feels better than when it doesn't. And then I'm actually willing to take action to do that. That's a masculine quality. I'm willing to take action on what I need to do to feel good, to feel balanced. But you know it does take an ability to feel. And you just said, you know when we're all up here, when we're in that patriarchy of, I gotta think and it's linear and I gotta
00:39:31
Speaker
make it happen for the material reasons. Again, we got bills to pay, I get it. But that becomes the only reason we do things instead of to become a better person, to feel good, to increase my ability to give and offer to my family, my community, those kinds of things. So um so I think you you know really spoke to that you know inability that all of us have sometimes to really just feel what we need and then take action on it. But I would say especially men, Yeah, I will get caught up in this time goes fast enough. Obviously, as soon as you get over that 32, whatever that you just start, and we're trying to pack friction up and slow down that process. But when you dive into like you're saying to this patriarchal thing, I think it just speeds up time more. I mean, you can blink five, 10 years passes by and what are you doing? And you're probably in worse shape. You're probably feeling, you know, you're not helping yourself. So I think doing this is just slowing things down. And when I don't,
00:40:32
Speaker
man, it it's just it's a bad reminder on how fast things can go bad. I mean, also, when I take go out at night, they trigger our dog out to go to the bathroom. Same thing, it's it's, I'm fascinated by the little stars and things that you can see up there. I mean, I mean, I know we're so significant, and we're so insignificant. And I think that balance of everything keeps you know, creates humor and things on how you handle things and and when to be serious and when not to, but i just so it's such a cool hierarchy that there's no answer for other than better find out how to enjoy this thing because it's over quick and it changes all the time and change is just natural. it's Being dynamic is, we can't control that. It's just, so it's how well do we adapt? you know And and um that was a big thing for me too. Sorry, I always was an A to B guy. If I did A, I should get B.
00:41:27
Speaker
And then I had some depression and some head injury battles. And then I had a guy that taught me, he called it remapping. I'm like, what are you talking about remapping? He goes, out A and B, yeah, you should get it, but it's not guaranteed. Maybe you get Z, you know, or maybe you get P, you know, and then where do you go? He goes, I'm like confused. He goes, I learned how to remap things. You can have a vision, a goal, and if it doesn't go perfectly, then just remap and recharge. Sounds easier than it is. But I was kind of laughing at myself going, dang, I am. I'm a pretty like structured and goal oriented. And then you start realizing I'm going to force it because I planned it this way. So it has to go in this sequence. You know, otherwise, you know, it's it's yeah what's going on. And you then you go back into where it broke down and you try to work that program out or relationship.
00:42:12
Speaker
You know, and and same thing in relationships, I would heal something when I failed. Oh my gosh, I'm so much better now. But then you don't realize then you have this false armor and you don't realize that there's a whole nother trap doors with all your screw ups that you think that you've solved and you have it. And so you're just oblivious. You're like, wait a minute, I worked on things. It was my fault on this and I did this. And then, you know, it can't be me now. It has to be this other person, you know? And so you're realizing, oh geez, every time you interact with somebody, it's just different. And then once you work on one thing, I was taught, you can't keep the other skeletons out of the closet. You don't know, once you open that door to fix or to work on yourself, to improve yourself, it just doesn't turn off. You don't just do one eye at a time. It all comes in, you're like,
00:42:59
Speaker
and then learn to be okay with them. And it's so much better. Like, Shannon, my wife now, she always branched, God, it'd be nice if we met each other when we were younger. I'm like, I agree, man, we could have had this great life and kids. But guess what? We're here because of what happened to us in the past. And we may not have liked each other, you know, we may have just been friends, you know, so I take it for what all my mistakes and good and hard times because now I feel like I'm in a growth period where
Embracing Emotions and Past Mistakes
00:43:27
Speaker
I should be. So Again, a mirror of where we were, which means we probably, like you said, wouldn't have even resonated or something because we were different people at that time. Definitely. And we're going to have to screw up, you know, in our 20s and 25 and 30. You're going to have to make mistakes. And it's almost like you said, as soon as you heal something, well, watch out. Here comes another relationship or something to show you whether you really have or not. Absolutely. Or you can at least try to work it out in real life with another person, right? Not just up in the head.
00:43:55
Speaker
And really what you've described is so interesting is the journey, I think, from being very linear, whether it was how it was for you naturally, or sometimes I think it's a system, it's something we develop as a need to feel like we're in control of something, if this, then that, it's logical, right? yeah So that's, you know, I can feel like I can wrap my head around that. um But, and then you' I've heard you all the way through talking about how you feel about certain things like feeling people out, like I don't know if I felt that way or was afraid. So you've really been able to get in touch with your feeling function, right? you So it's like taking it from here to the heart or even to the body to feel what the body needs and all of that. That's a big jump for a lot of men, right? A big jump. yeah
00:44:46
Speaker
It is skill to get in touch with their emotional life to ask themselves the deeper questions yeah Because it does take some courage and then like you said it's like oh we're on this ride This is just the way it is we don't know if this then that you know absolutely So yeah speak to that a little bit you know and that was hard to get through you know because the A and the B and all that and you brought up the whole linear and a guy asked me where do I see my chart and I held my My present, when I always saw it right here, my past, I felt it was right here and my future was somewhere going over towards my, from left to right in a 45 degree angle, but very cloudy. And I didn't relive my past, but I would re-feel my past. I could pass this street and I remember exact song, I was on FM radio, 106.7, K-Rock, and I could tell you exactly like Bananarama,
00:45:46
Speaker
You know, summer was playing and I and I you relive that the smell, the taste, who are we with and realizing we can never have that back. So it was kind of saddening into details. And then when he when I was working to the remapping and I get holding on to your past, even though it was beautiful, was so treacherous because it wasn't allowing me to be in the present and it wasn't allowing me to to even see any clarity in the future other than I will be there and I will achieve. And now after going through some work and I don't even know, just reading and talking, now I see my past is directly behind me and my present is here and my future is pretty clear, but it's out forward in front of me.
00:46:25
Speaker
And I don't know if that's good or bad, but it just feels less boggled down. um So getting through that that whole linear structure of A to B, then OK, B to C, then that, it's really helped kind of reflow. And I think if I didn't understand my feelings, I guess you get out what you put in. So if you put junk in, you're going to get junk out, you know, and it's like practice makes doesn't make perfect, perfect, perfect practice makes perfect, you know, just being refined and intentional. And I think my understanding and touching of those feelings for me has been part of who I am because it it has to feel right. you know And um I think if I had a lot of times I did some group work where we would just get to the point and then everybody's comfortable and then it stops. I'm like, and I'm the guy's there, wait a minute. I'm ready to go deeper. I'm ready to put out yourself. I have problems with X, Y, and Z. Because i and my goal is to get better.
00:47:23
Speaker
So I want to put it out there like I would get up in the morning when I was an athlete and go on work out and run at different in the snow.
Approaching Challenges and Personal Insights
00:47:30
Speaker
I put on my old football shoes and go run in the snow and my coach thought it was crazy. I go yeah but I have to prepare my body for the practice and then repair it again that night and it was a cycle um and I have no problem. I'm not going to go out and run the snow without playing a sport. I mean I'm not doing that but I know it's the process. So I guess with the therapy, you know, working with groups is I want to experience and grab that rock and look at it and see why is it a different color because it's not been in the center or whatever. Like I want to know why, because then I can use it for knowledge in the future as a Jane's bond to problem solve something down the road. So I think knowing my feelings is, it is important and it is being able to communicate that. And it's a positive thing. I've had to also manage the other connection to that as being very sensitive.
00:48:17
Speaker
So not very, but at sometimes I might be too sensitive, but I don't take that away because at the other end it means I'm passionate and I have feelings. So that's a good thing. You know, so all things are connected, good and bad. It's just, how do we manage that? So, um, that, that's my guess. I don't know if I really answered it well, other than it's just reworking my brain structure and I have to go to the feeling to get deeper into it, you know, and that helps me. Well, and there's, you know, science behind that, because that's actually how it happens, right? The thinking and the feeling are so closely related. And I think you said it, I re-feel the past. Well, we all do. It's programmed into the vagus nerve. That's actually what causes the thoughts, which creates the fear of like, why is she coming on too strong? I don't, you know, you're like, why is she just being nice? What am I doing? But there's something already imprinted in some way, because
00:49:12
Speaker
I think sensitive people, right? We're like, whoa, that could like, I could get like hurt, you know, that. And so we create these things that, you know, go, I don't, I don't want to be hurt a little bit prickly. So, um, and, and that's okay. And we have to do it, but we don't realize we're refilling and that's causing a thought and refilling causing thoughts. So you really did speak to that and that it takes some intention. So like, you know, practice some rehearsal on, okay, I'm going to like change that. And then we suddenly have different thoughts, different feelings, not suddenly, I'm sorry, yeah take that back over some work. It takes some work. It doesn't happen in a day. We don't just realize, Oh gosh, look what I've been doing. And no and then, other ah but sometimes, liie sometimes it does feel sudden. I mean, nothing, it doesn't really work. And then all of a sudden that experience happened. You're like, wow, that, that was awful. I did wrong. Or that was really good. You know? And.
00:50:04
Speaker
And usually it's when you build up like, ah, I'm doing so well in life, everything's going great. I think that's where I'm most vulnerable. And unfortunately, when we're down and out, I was taught that's your most powerful time because you everything you choose will be where you go next. And so if we start empowering ourselves when we are in the dumps, like lost a job, lost a relationship, whatever, it's like, we'll plan everything, everything you do every day is gonna get you to where you wanna go. you know, if if I had a person cheat on me, it would be easy in my 20s to go out and drink and womanize because they're male. Yeah, um it's not my problem. But is that really going to get you to where you want to go? You know, ah probably not. But if you have a little bit of patience, a little discipline, which is a masculinity to and finding out where you really want you going, who do you really want to attract to you?
Self-Improvement and Life's Fluidity
00:50:55
Speaker
You know, it's like, to
00:50:58
Speaker
I guess it's, I always thought you can't say hi to somebody until you say goodbye to somebody, you know? So, and when you say goodbye, it's just not on and off. Then you have to work through whatever that is and and draw that person. i' Like if I just go out drinking and womanizing, what kind of person am I going to attract? You know, in the long run. And now if I met somebody, I wouldn't be ready to say hi to them because I'm still a little bit messed up versus getting on that. So i I think, no, I'm, I, you know, you're really pointing to, and, you know, a lot of the things that I've seen about, ah you know, men's mental health, especially at this point. um And so I'm, I'm kind of going there, because I think that this, this part where you said the present and the past are right here, but and yeah keeps going back and forth, right? yeah In here, the future seems way out there, maybe someday I'll get there. yeah But
00:51:55
Speaker
And then you have done a lot of work. You have allowed yourself to take in information, to change, to have the courage to step into it. And now it's like, oh, I see, it's kind of fluid. And I'm good to change. Some things change fast, some things don't. So I guess what I'm getting to is that I don't know, and this is my question. It's my own career here. How do men, You've had some openings, you've had some support, you've had some love. You don't even have rites of passage anymore. They don't have like a community where the all the men are saying, hey buddy, you can do this. We'll be right here when you get back from the woods, whatever the rite of passage is. yeah You don't have that. They come out of the chute thinking they got to be perfect. There's nowhere to mess up to be challenged to get tackled on the field.
00:52:49
Speaker
You know, there's none of that in support. Not none. I'm generalizing. But I see it on the other end where this past and present is so tight, there's nowhere else to go. And they don't have anywhere to talk about it. You talked about being in men's groups. You talked about there's nowhere to like say these things like you're saying. And often the women aren't a place to do that either. Yeah, ah because they have you to come out perfectly and be the problem solver. You can't have these thoughts and feelings and want to think about things deeply. It's not what we set up. So go ahead. Yeah, that structure for men and women we have, we we we we battle the same things and they're always different areas. But you know that
00:53:30
Speaker
Uh, women, you know, of course their, their beauty and their virtue is wanting and and what they do. And in minutes it's about, you know, are, are we honorable? Are we live up to our fathers or elders, you know, and we, we always want to be something, but that's inner drive inside. But yeah, going to men's groups, I remember going to one. Um, and I was, I think I was 28, 29, 30. It was about usually 70 people, 80 people on every Friday and you just come and go as you are. I was the youngest guy there. I just shut up and and I can talk a lot, you know, sorry, everybody. no that's good I just shut up and listen because I wanted to hear everybody. and It wasn't it was based on Christianity, but there was a lot of gentlemen if they were older and I did work in the Long Beach Veterans Hospital. So I got a lot of, i so you know, spent three years in their working, got to meet a lot of amazing um men and women, mostly men, though, at the time. And
00:54:27
Speaker
ah just to listen to their stories and where they come through when they struggle. Their lives are never perfect, but just to see the happiness and to say, hey, it was just so impactful. Like they were always tell the young guys, don't worry about what your watch is or car you're driving. I made that mistake. I had no money until I was 45, but I always was faking in. I regret it to this day, or they were, you know, getting shot up in a helicopter and you're just, It just adds, not that I wish that on anybody, I mean, he you know, but ah it's just, I guess when you put those physical experiences, and and then you put some time of them seasoning in their lives, boy, they can share a lot. um And I am so, and every era, every
00:55:14
Speaker
what I want to say, world power from the Mesopotamia to where we are today, have all had good times and bad times. And I'm a big student in reading on what happened, not to so it fits in my story, but to understand what's going on out there. There was always hard times. You can look at it every decade from, I just, for the 1880s till now, there's everything to doomsday. You can take it that way. I do feel there is some um artificial attacks going on and it comes out of a certain, probably political realm, but I know they have an elson alpha male and beta males and these beta males. or just if I just look at, when I see like protesting stuff, people don't even know what they're protesting and they're wearing masks or scarves to hide themselves. I'm like, really? Like, it's okay to have a voice in college and say something, but
00:56:04
Speaker
for for me to expect you to follow me because of through this false masculinity and bullying and vice versa, we're not going to get anywhere. you know So having the the the courage and the strength to have conversations into some of the best conversations I have are during the election years. But there's a lot of, most of them are bad, but it's the people that aren't trying to turn you. They're just trying to explain. And I've always said, we have two sets of eye, we have two eyeballs. We've all seen the world differently. So I want to hear what you're coming from. And when you have trustworthy people, they don't think necessarily like, it's really cool to understand. Like, I can understand that. I don't agree with all of it, but I can understand where this person's coming from.
00:56:48
Speaker
um So those are very important. So this beta male and chivalry, I've always opened the door and car doors. You don't know how many times a woman looks at me like I'm an asshole for doing that. Like, what are you doing? I'm like, whatever, you know, I spent some time in the South, but I learned that also just from growing up. ah It's not that I'm better than you, it's just what's wrong with that. And people have a problem, you know, sometimes with that. So but, and you know, and you know, when when when women have gone more and everything changed. I'm not saying having that that family unit to me, is they're trying to destroy that now and it makes no sense.
00:57:25
Speaker
the family is so important. i I remember writing papers in junior high about how important, and it was mostly moms at the time were stay at home moms, like what they do. My mom worked most of the time, she wouldn't stay at home mom, but I mean, they bust their butt, you know, it's a very tough job. And why is it like, oh, you're just staying at home? And it's like, that's your people are missing it. So, but having that in communities, is lost and it stinks that now we live where we have to have dual income families and it just hurts to the core our societies. Working from because somebody wants to versus have to is much different, you know, um and that's tough. um And then you say, well, you're genderizing this and well, yeah, whatever. But at the same time, I've seen Mr. Moms do wonderful too, but I just think so important to the core and who we are.
00:58:19
Speaker
You know, when I look at certain cultures in Europe where now the 40 and 50 year old man and is still living with mom at home, it's a culture change. I mean, it's just different. So, um, and maybe it's financial. I don't know, you know, because I know there's a lot of finance reasons, but there's a lot of coddling going on there. Uh, and being a, An alpha male doesn't mean you look like Paul Bunyan and can beat you up. you know it's Sometimes the nerdiest person in the world that's pale as can be is the most masculine person in your community because they're they're they're strong and they give time. So I guess with this era of our thing right now, that you can't just define a male or a female.
00:59:04
Speaker
i mean Good luck, you know? And it's okay, a real man um isn't oppressive, you know? A real man doesn't tell you what you should think, you know? I should be very clear on my thoughts and I'm willing to listen, which I pray I always get better at is listening, because I think that's a skill that gets diminished in this day and age, i hear you know? And we need to be able to adapt and grow. So I think those are very important things on being a man, you know? i ah It doesn't mean I'm superior. You know, it doesn't mean it just that I have certain qualities. And my neighbor next to me, he's a man. He's got totally different qualities. A lot I respect and wish I had. I mean, it's great. But I mean, that's how it is. And that's a community. And that's where we need to lean on each other a little bit more. And I think in Irvine here, it's very diverse, very, I mean, you name the culture, it is here. And it is taught the public high schools. that here I work with a lot of athletes still.
01:00:04
Speaker
It is stressful that academics out here are off the charts, almost too much, or, or an SAT programs all summer, not just for two weeks, and they go eight days a week. And that's summertime, and I'm like, really, what about being a kid, what about I remember I got yelled at from mom I said guys have you ever toilet paper to house. And they said, no. So they go, what is that? And I told them what it is. And then one of the moms or dads can I say, Hey, Jeff, that was really responsible because you're really wasting resources. I'm like, eh, you got me there, but just be a kid. You know, ding dong ditch. I know it's a pain in the ass of the community, but I mean, those are just, we're taking that away.