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Moments with DANIEL GIAMARIO
174 Plays9 months ago
Founder of the Shamanic Astrology Paradigm™ and the Turning of the Ages Mystery School, Daniel shares with us and the world an exceptionally broad and unique perspective on the "definitions" of masculinity throughout history and how it relates to our current time. Instead of 3 or 4 acceptable expressions of what it means to "be a man," what if there were at least 144 different versions? What does it mean to, "know your sword and to know how to use it?" Listen in ...
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Transcript
Introduction to Masculinity Conversations
00:00:03
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I am Lizzie Kay Moon, and I am here spending more moments with men to have conversations with men about their experience with expected roles and acceptable expressions of masculinity in this culture. And I do this because I have witnessed, observed, and been in relationship with men that has shown me
00:00:30
Speaker
that there's such a limited expression of masculinity or what it means to be a man that I hope we can open up some more options and opportunities
Interview with Daniel Giamario
00:00:42
Speaker
for that. And I am so honored today to be speaking with my personal teacher and mentor and the founder of the shamanic astrology paradigm that I am learning, Daniel Giamario. Welcome, Daniel. Hey.
00:00:58
Speaker
Thank you. Marvelous to have a chance to have this discussion with you today, Lizzie. Well, thank you. And when I was really feeling into what to do about this, you know, as I observed this, I'm like, well, let's just start talking about it. I don't have answers, but let's at least start talking about it so that we put some different
00:01:20
Speaker
options out into the collective here and to the consciousness and who better to talk about it with but you and I asked you about it even at our last gathering you know what what is how can I start talking about it with others and so you certainly opened my mind about that and so first let's just get a little information about you a little data you know how old are you where were you born how were you raised where do you live are you partnered that kind of thing
00:01:49
Speaker
Well, I just recently in October turned 75.
Daniel's Background and Family Influence
00:01:56
Speaker
I have actually been doing, my focus has probably been in astrology since the late sixties. I grew up in a military family. My dad actually, when I, it's pretty interesting. My dad was Italian. I'm half Italian. And I was the oldest in the family.
00:02:19
Speaker
And my dad grew up in New York, and he was coming of age in the 30s. And when you're an Italian in New York in the 30s, you have only three options.
00:02:33
Speaker
And do you join the brown shirts and become fascist or you, you end up becoming the supporter of the communists and the, and, and so the, they would battle each other in the streets. Or there's the third option, which you joined the mafia. And two of my dad's brothers were mafia. Um, and he, he wait, what he did is that he chose a way to get out of all any of that. And in, in right before World War II, he joined the military.
00:03:01
Speaker
And he never had to be in combat. By the time that he got to the Vietnam War, I was in college in the late 60s. And what a time to be in college. I mean, that was the apex of the Cultural Revolution that was happening in the mid-late 60s.
00:03:20
Speaker
For example, I was at a college from 1966 to 1970 where we succeeded in eliminating the military corporations and sororities and fraternities out of off the campus.
00:03:35
Speaker
You know, so it was and it was a real university, you know, so I was studying Eastern philosophy and involved in the political activities happening at that time, you know, so it was a very heavy time. Meanwhile, my dad was in Hawaii, I was in Hawaii and it was the logistics and procurement master for the running the Vietnam War. And so meanwhile, I'm having these letter writings and conversations with him.
00:04:02
Speaker
And I would have to say that my own activities that scared him at first, it actually turned him into also an opponent of the war. And so actually rather than becoming a general, which he could have done to go to Saigon and run the war from there, he retired. You know, so he was, but he, okay, I'm only bringing this in because while I'm saying some really beautiful things about my dad,
00:04:28
Speaker
My dad, and I know that this is jumping right into the main part of our solutions here, is that my dad was Mars in Scorpio. And I'm Mars in Scorpio. I was brought up in a usual sort of Italian, Scorpionic, male macho environment.
00:04:56
Speaker
And the thing is that my dad wanted me to hang out with these guys that I thought were just idiots. I tried to make it with them. My brother also had a lot of Scorpio and he was my dad's favorite, but still I was under this pressure as it were to demonstrate a certain kind of aggressive macho
00:05:23
Speaker
going after women, knowing how to seduce women, knowing how to, you know, and so on, which was an element of that, which is can be authentic masculinity, you know, to have a confidence to show up strong, if that's your archetype. I failed at it. And even when I succeeded, according to what they said you were supposed to be doing this for,
00:05:51
Speaker
I wasn't happy with it because I didn't really get the experience from it that I wanted, which was actually intimacy. And so basically by being successful at being kind of an aggressive macho male, didn't result in anything of a value in my heart or soul and that kind of thing. Now, so meanwhile, I'm having that experience.
00:06:16
Speaker
of my own experience relative to what the pressure that was put on me about how I should be. Meanwhile, in the mid-late 60s, a lot of other things were happening.
60s Cultural Revolution and Astrology
00:06:29
Speaker
A lot of people today, younger people, have no idea about this. There was what's called the Carnaby Street Phenomena, which is like in 1966, 67, 68,
00:06:42
Speaker
there evolved a completely different expression of masculinity, which was, you know, wearing colors, long hair, being much more about the aesthetics, you know, like a reaction against military style haircuts and conformity of everybody looking the same way.
00:07:09
Speaker
And that actually then morphed in the early 70s to like with people who involved in music and were actually, I'll just go back for a second. Like in the mid 60s, I mean, right after the Beatles came out, it was like every boy wanted to learn some musical instrument and be in a rock group, right? Why? Grow your hair out, play an instrument and you get girls.
00:07:35
Speaker
And actually, it was like that for a long period of time. But then by the time we got to the early 70s, the experimentation with different kind of like the rebellion against cultural gender roles of men and women resulted in things like the beginning of gay liberation.
00:08:00
Speaker
the beginning of the women's movement. And this corresponded astrologically to the availability of the ephemeris for the four asteroids that are named after goddesses. And so in about 1970, 71, as I was fully getting into astrology and my astrological career, most of us at that time were recognizing that regular astrology was patriarchal.
00:08:30
Speaker
Hellenistic patriarchal principles. And there was almost nothing about the feminine in regular astrology other than say, well, the moon is, you know, the moon is feminine or something like that. Or Venus is a love goddess, you know, but other than that, there's like nothing. And so for a long time, there was the integration of the four asteroid goddesses into it. I made the decision in the late seventies,
00:08:56
Speaker
to see masculine and feminine gods and goddesses in every planet and every sign. And to really make it not just like, well, that's supposed to be female or that's supposed to be male, but rather to see gods and goddesses, like the moon, for example, as gods and goddesses. The sun, actually the word sun comes from the word sunna, who is a goddess. And the word moon,
00:09:24
Speaker
Mona comes from a god, the name of a god. So there's a lot of confusion about these kinds of issues. But anyway, in the 70s, at that time period, the whole idea was to perceive cultural gender roles for both women and men were so limiting. And in fact, it was women who got a hold of this first, really,
00:09:53
Speaker
by expanding the spectrum of possibilities.
Redefining Gender Roles
00:09:57
Speaker
Men came a little bit later, but what our school and what my approach was most into, okay, was getting beyond this idea that men are this way and women are this way. You know, it's like, what is a man supposed to be? What is a woman supposed to be?
00:10:21
Speaker
And it's so confused right now because even the word gender has been hijacked. Originally, the word gender was completely understood. It's either grammar or then it became an early feminist writing.
00:10:38
Speaker
and early men who were writing about this, it's what the culture said a man is supposed to be. So each time period in history like men would have to be two or three things, you know. But those were known as gender, not whether you're
00:10:55
Speaker
you know, born as an organic XX human or an organic XY human, male and female. All right. The idea is that women have many different ways of being women and men can have many different ways of being men. Anyway, we were all doing this in the seventies. In fact, I can still remember in the early seventies that things got a little confusing because the guys that got into
00:11:25
Speaker
Oh, maybe I'm gay. Okay. And then, and coming out of the closet on that, the original gay look was long hair and feminine dress. All right. It only later became that other expression, which was a different archetype of, you know, like white t-shirts and muscles and, you know, and, and, and, and actually in my opinion, my experience of an astrologer and I've done sessions for hundreds and hundreds of, um,
00:11:54
Speaker
lesbian couples and gay men, you know, couples. There's just as many pair of bonders as there is among heterosexual people. I mean, so it all depends on the archetype. Not every, you know, lesbian or gay person or all these other things now, intersex or, you know, the LGBTQ, the 72 different possibilities. It really all goes back to what your archetype is, not some definition of what a woman is supposed to be or what a
00:12:26
Speaker
you know, all these different possibilities that are supposed to be in some kind of a box. No, it's there's different archetypal expressions of every human being with and that does change over time. So like 100 years ago would have been different than it is now. So that's why I think the astrological model is so so helpful if we get beyond Sun sign stuff, you know, Sun sign astrology also just puts people in boxes, you know, so there's
00:12:55
Speaker
And I'll stop for a moment. I mean, I don't know whether I covered everything as far as that backstory on it. Like in my own case, what I just to give you an example, you know, I said I was grown up is this Mars and Scorpio, you're supposed to be like, knowing how to seduce the woman or to to, you know, how to, to
00:13:16
Speaker
to with some kind of aggressive behavior.
Struggles with Masculine Expectations
00:13:20
Speaker
I can still remember these guys that my dad wanted me to be friends with when I was in high school. And they said, well, Daniel, you have to get them drunk. And then you have to get out on the dance floor. And then you weave in and out. And you demonstrate your aggression. And then you're the one who ends up winning. I'm sorry. I just got my Italian action just got
00:13:46
Speaker
got the camera to get anyway. But I realized that how ridiculous that was. And I could not believe the locker room conversations and that kind of thing. So I found that for myself, that anytime I was aggressive, it didn't work. And so I learned for myself personally, that actually for me, I'm not saying this to be for all men at all. But for me, the woman was the one who took the action.
00:14:18
Speaker
And I was open to receiving that, you know, rather than feeling I had to quote, really try hard. And yet there are plenty of women that I know that much against their cultural programming. It's best if they take the action, but rather to say.
00:14:39
Speaker
that all women need to be more aggressive or all men need to be more receptive. That's just absurd. It's just like, I think you've probably heard me say, Lizzie, that if I ever did a book burning, one of the books I would put in the fire would be men are from Mars, women are for Venus, which is just, well, if there's a certain degree of psychological sophistication in it, it just exacerbates the problem.
00:15:05
Speaker
I was gonna say you must have, after all that you had been through and realized and you're, you know, coming up through astrology in that time, you must have just like, you know, hit yourself on the head when that book came out and you're like, what, you know, set us and then became such a big, you know, best seller to the point, even when I talk about astrology, you know, still people that that might even be the only thing they know is the name of that book. You know, but it was,
00:15:35
Speaker
Really, instead of it doing to our culture anything, it was really a statement on where I believe our culture is or was at that time and still is today to a certain point. And so if you could like explain and you just spoke to it. So it's a great segue.
00:15:55
Speaker
for those again just listening thinking about what does it what do you mean masculine and feminine and you know i can say it in in our little wu wu circles that we all have masculine and feminine energies within us and we all shake our heads and go yeah yeah like we know like we think we know what that means but what does that mean especially to a man as they're trying to
00:16:21
Speaker
you know, wrap their minds around some of these things. What does it mean to, what does a feminine energy mean? Why is that okay for a man to even talk about that or explore that or know what that is within themselves?
Jung's Concept of Masculinity
00:16:36
Speaker
I'll give a couple of examples. At one point, Jung was asked, what is masculinity?
00:16:45
Speaker
And his answer was masculinity means to know your sword and to know how to use it. Now, he was not speaking of a weapon. All right. So the way I would describe it is that what he meant is that what for you is a man turns you on or gets you hard, I guess you could say. But then what is your sword and then how to use it, right?
00:17:15
Speaker
So this is beautifully expressed through the full spectrum of masculine archetypes. So there will be a certain type of man whose masculinity is based upon being a responsible parent. There's another type of man whose masculinity will be based upon winning a competition. Another version of that is
00:17:44
Speaker
one developing a relationship with one's personal best you know so that you're challenging yourself to that that's not just men there's a version of the female that's like that too all right then another example might be um to know your sword means your capacity to provide nourishment you know so i mean if you have if a parent had a 14 year old boy with mars and cancer let's say
00:18:11
Speaker
which is one of those, rather than sending him to the jungle to demonstrate his capacity to bring back a lion or to be a warrior, which would not be a warrior thing at all, it would be to maybe give him a little horse to take care of or to, you know, if it was Marzan Virgo, you know, let him take care of the herbs or the garden, you know, so there's another way of
00:18:38
Speaker
of him demonstrating his capacity to know his sword. It's not just warrior, or it's not just father. It's not just king. It is a wide variety of different possibilities available for what Jung meant by to know your sword and to know how to use it. And the ability to value that in a man, like this one that's almost never talked about. And it's the Libra one.
Redefining Gender Roles in Relationships
00:19:09
Speaker
And what's the sword quality there? What's the essence of masculinity there? It's the capacity to really commit and work on a relationship, to commit to a relationship and work on the relationship, because the standard model out there in the world, oh, it's the woman who has to do the relationship piece. Well, in my practice, I see at least half
00:19:38
Speaker
of the couples I work with, it could be the type of woman who is more alpha dominant. And it's the guy she chooses to be with him. She's lucky who works on the relationship, not as a weak codependency, but as a sign of strength that he's holding the space for that. That's his energy. That is his commitment. That is his ability to hold space.
00:20:05
Speaker
And I think it's often said, again, in that all men, in the way that people say all men are one way and all women are one way, is that it's always the men afraid of commitment, right? Always the one that, you know, the woman trapped them into a relationship and now he's got a ball and chain on or something. That's just the characterization. We've kind of given this whole thing. And again, this paradigm is so beautiful in that it says,
00:20:35
Speaker
And we witnessed it and maybe you can speak to the experience we had even here, you know, as an example or give an example, you know, where, you know, we might think, you know, men are supposed to be even in our relationships. And the reason I want to speak to this is because, you know, it's not just men who have been kind of trapped into the boxes of only being accepted to express in a certain way, because once that's done or, or it goes along with it,
00:21:04
Speaker
That means women now only can think of a man as being a man in a certain way, right? And so we project that onto them as well. We raise our boys differently than we do our girls. I even had this conversation with a vice principal the other day and she said, I find myself, even with students who aren't my own children, wanting a little boy to get up and be stronger.
Impact of Societal Expectations on Boys
00:21:29
Speaker
And so we're just in there. So yeah.
00:21:34
Speaker
I have a couple of examples that I could share about how much you don't know the archetypes. If you're not really aware of what your own authentic expression is as a man or a woman, the two examples I'll give, there's a fairly well-known alternative community in Portugal. And basically they are exponents of
00:22:06
Speaker
kind of opening it up to be intimate with everyone. I mean, really opposed to a parabond model. And so therefore people will go there and learn how to open themselves up to other people. And it's a particular view about how the future worlds should be. Well, I have clients, male clients,
00:22:35
Speaker
who went there with their girlfriends. And now these were guys with a lot of Libra that were authentically wanting to go deeper in a bond. The women who got from this, oh, I want to be with anybody. And so they ended up actually believing the guy was sort of some kind of weakling. When he in fact was the type of man who wanted a really authentic kind of commitment.
00:23:05
Speaker
And so that's one example. Now I'll give you another example. And I don't know whether this organization still exists, but boy did I run into this a lot, maybe 15, 20 years ago, but I'll give you an example. It was out of the San Francisco Bay area. And it was an organization that was teaching women how, basically the women were taught that men
00:23:31
Speaker
It's impossible to have a deep, intimate, authentic relationship with a man.
Feminine Energy in Men
00:23:37
Speaker
So what we're going to do is teach you how to find a rich man and teach you how to manipulate him so that you can get what you want because you'll know you'll never get anything else from a man. And so my goodness, was that ever damaging?
00:23:58
Speaker
And I had to do, I do a lot of repair work on that one, actually, with people that I've known. I mean, it's just, it kind of like, so I have compassion for that, because within patriarchy, the two survival strategies for women is either learn how to manipulate men, or
00:24:23
Speaker
be more like a man than a man. So you can be dominant in a corporation or in politics or, you know, or something like that. And this is very, very damaging to women, but it's also can be extremely damaging to men to believe that I just simply need to be more and more, more like a woman. No, it is authentic ways of being a man or a woman.
00:24:48
Speaker
And so we're trying to remember what those are because you have to kind of look at 10,000 years of history to see what they are and then be willing to dream them forward, you know, and not not to have it be some sort of.
Nuanced Understanding of Gender Concepts
00:25:01
Speaker
Let's just get rid of masculine and feminine, you know, I mean, which is just a doorway into transhumanism and no sex at all. Right. Well, and this is exactly what I'm having this conversation. And when I heard my friends on their podcast start talking about
00:25:18
Speaker
You know, men don't have a way to express and they don't have an outlet. You know, they're only expected to express a certain way. The only outlet is doing the chores when they get home. So at least they're on their own and thinking while they're doing their chores or their fix ups or whatever. And really, you know, what do women want? We want them to be emotional. We want them to know they're supposed to be rational and logical and not feel that deeply. And what are you doing crying?
00:25:42
Speaker
all of these things. And then society says, well, of course you want to be married. Of course you want to be bonded. Even the, how many subtle messages, especially do women get, oh, he'll come along, you know, you'll find someone, you know, and how freeing it is.
00:26:01
Speaker
and especially in this paradigm, it was for me to be able to say, oh, I'm maybe not even kind of cut out for that, or it's not where my focus is in this lifetime. And that's what I'm getting to is the freedom, meaning, you know, I hope through these conversations and through the paradigm you're bringing forward and you can talk more about it tonight if you want, or you can come back on another time and really open us up to
00:26:28
Speaker
you know, these different expressions and give men and women permission to understand, you know, let's extract from all men are one way, all women are a certain way. Let's at least start questioning it. It's very damaging to all of us. I'll give you another example here of what I encounter in my work a lot. There will be, I'm doing a session for a woman.
00:26:55
Speaker
And she says, well, I've just gone to my therapist or this friend of mine said that I just need to get more into my feminine. So when they say that, what do they mean by that? Or when you hear that, how do you take that? Because if they're saying you need to be more like the cultural version of the female,
00:27:25
Speaker
I'm looking at your chart and you are like Aries Leo Sadger. You know, it's like basically they're telling you to, to, to not be fully the version of the feminine you actually are, you know? And so this is a, this is one of those things I listen, I hear it. Oh, I need to be more into my feminine. Be careful because then as cultural gender stuff and not the full understanding
00:27:55
Speaker
of what men and women could be. I mean, there are plenty of times in the history of humanity where it was actually the women who were the ones that were out hunting and gathering. And it was the men who were staying home. I mean, different cultures had, that's a generalization, but I'm just saying that the full spectrum of possibilities have been there for human beings all along.
00:28:19
Speaker
And the best solution I can see is this use of a full spectrum approach. And you can tell from the chart what is the one you've chosen to learn about and which is the one that you were
00:28:39
Speaker
born into that you might desire to want to see through, you know, to, you know, I'll have a cancer moon. Well, I'm supposed to actually just be a dad or a mother. Well, you can do that. But maybe you're here working on something else or just another. Really, this could be controversial to say this. I will say to women. Or I could say to men, I mean, if you say to men,
00:29:05
Speaker
every biologically intact male could be a father, but only some men are fathers.
Nature vs. Nurture in Male Behavior
00:29:14
Speaker
And the same thing we could say for women. And pretty much any woman could have a child if she's biologically intact. However, only some women are really the archetype of mother.
00:29:29
Speaker
Just go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, Lucy. No, no, that's okay. And I think that that's one of the questions I had with my friends on that conversation because he kind of said, well, you know, men are wired a certain way. And you mentioned this in the beginning of our conversation too, that there are some aspects, of course, of being in a male body and certain hormones and true wireings of being a male or a female.
00:29:56
Speaker
Of course, but I'm wondering, and that was my question back to him, wired or programmed? And I think a lot of this we kind of don't know anymore. And, you know, that, well, we're just wired to be stronger and more aggressive. And I'm like, well, I don't know, not all right. And you're shaking your head because, you know, not all of us are wired a certain way. And so I, you know, again, really appreciate
00:30:22
Speaker
you know, that we're opening this up. And I want to say for women, that's what I contacted them about. I said, you know, there are women, not all women are those women that don't want to hear it, or don't want to listen to men, or don't don't can't hold space for you to express in a different way. I want you to know, there are women who think differently than what you're experiencing, perhaps, even with your partners, your mothers, your sisters, your women in your life.
00:30:50
Speaker
So is there anything we can do? I said, you know, we've been sitting in circles and lighting candles for a long time, but I don't know if that's what men, you know, want to do, but how can we start bridging this gap? Because I want to say to women, it's not about rise of the feminine and no men. No.
00:31:08
Speaker
No. And to the point I saw a little video the other day, they were interviewing very young girls. Do you need men? No, no, no. Every single one of them. And then the end of the video was, well, 98% of firemen are men. 93% of police officers are men. And I can't open some jars already. I need some. I've been strong with it. So my question now is, and you kind of said it too, what can we say too?
00:31:38
Speaker
men and women, you and I are used to having these conversations, right? And people in our tribe or circles may be open to have these conversations, but what can we kind of say to men and women out there, like the experience we had here with this couple, just kind of normal going along in their day to day to help them understand and open up some more space between them. You know what I'm saying by that.
00:32:08
Speaker
Beyond this kind of discussion here of kind of explaining how we got here and from about the late 50s to the early 60s, it was a very regimented plastic kind of world. It was pretty abundant, at least in the so-called Western world at that point, but the roles were extremely limited.
00:32:37
Speaker
And then basically it exploded out into a lot of different things, experimenting with different approaches. But now we got to this time now, which is in this much larger time period of a great turning of the ages, where basically we're in a position of creating a new way of being as human beings on the planet or not. All right. Now,
00:33:04
Speaker
I certainly don't want to go in the direction of no sex, transhumanism, the worst kind of androgyny. I think everyone should have the freedom to choose which way they want it to be. Now, that's just the generalization on it.
Authentic Gender Expression
00:33:28
Speaker
the hijack of the word gender, I still believe that there is, in fact, that 99.5% of human beings are born XX or XY, and they have different physical characteristics. That's a real thing, and there is the 0.5, but then other cultures have recognized the importance of those people too. Anyway,
00:33:58
Speaker
it comes down to knowing authentically what expression of masculine or feminine you are, but then a lot of times we're just lacking an education about what they are. You know, so if all you know is red, white and blue, how would you know if you're purple or turquoise or something, you know, that there's some other expression. All right. Then when it comes to relationship,
00:34:27
Speaker
there's a way of understanding who you're with along these lines, and to not project some idea that you have about how they should be onto them. But this actually requires it to be reciprocal both ways. You know, so if you're with someone and what you want is somebody to be your provider, but yet you're with a person who is,
00:34:55
Speaker
uh, um, more about the person is in relationship because he wants to have somebody to have adventures with, let's say, um, then to become aware of that. And then you have a choice that you can say, well, um, I understand you're projecting that, or I'm projecting
Understanding Partners Beyond Projections
00:35:13
Speaker
that. And we could make an agreement that we'll do that some of the time, or you can say, I realize
00:35:21
Speaker
that who you are is not what I'm looking for. And so out of love, you can then just say, well, there's nothing wrong with the way you are, you know, but I'm not going to try to, you know, manipulate you into being the way I want you to be, you know, things like that. So it has to do with having an interest to be able to have authentic
00:35:42
Speaker
real conversations about these things and to not just be well though women are all a certain way men are all a certain way you know just like that example I gave of that San Francisco area workshop where they're saying well men it's impossible to really have a relationship she was just I'll be with her might as well be with a rich one and know how to manipulate them well you know very very damaging to the heart to the soul
00:36:07
Speaker
Absolutely, to the point, as I'm having these conversations and asking people some of these questions, you know, one of my friends just said, you know, men have kind of given up, you know, you know, they, because, you know, women have done the checklist, this is what I want, and how I can manipulate the man to get what I want. And so they get protective and like, wait, I've worked half my life, and you can come take it. So
00:36:33
Speaker
There's just so much going on that, like you said, if we could get used to, first of all, knowing myself enough and being courageous enough to be authentic in that so that I can go into a relationship and go, look, this is why I would even want to be in a relationship.
00:36:50
Speaker
And so as an example, my own example, right, my chart isn't really that much about pair bonding. And I can free myself from trying to always make it work with someone who society tells me, well, but they love you. You should X, Y, Z. And then the example here, we had a couple
00:37:14
Speaker
who where her archetype or more of the energy in her chart was what would be considered masculine, you know, logical, quick thinking, you know, the doer, and he was more the feeling function of the relationship and they were projecting it on to each other, you know, the societal messages. And your explanation of the of the different expressions really gave them I can tell a huge understanding
00:37:43
Speaker
And that's the point is that we just understand each other. Meaning you don't have to be like me or even like I want you to be. But if we can understand each other, then we don't have to go through four more years of hanging on to things that... There's another factor though that also is important to be aware of. And that is that these kinds of things we're talking about are different in different cultures.
Western Influence on Masculinity
00:38:12
Speaker
Yes. And so therefore what we're really referring to here is how it works with the so-called advanced Western cultures, but also the way other cultures have been dominated, influenced, propagandized by Hollywood.
00:38:39
Speaker
or by advertising and things like that, which then puts a certain view on to people that can be really damaging to what their own cultural would say about these kinds of things. That has to be taken into account.
00:39:01
Speaker
like it's a little different to be able to work specifically with what we're talking about, say here in the Philippines, unless because they're just locked into a Catholic worldview or they're locked into almost like no worldview at all. Okay. And not to be critical or about anything. In fact, I could be even more critical of
00:39:26
Speaker
the cultural projection of Hollywood or the way that America sees the world, which has caused a lot of the confusion. For example, men having given up because there's a certain way American women are totally generalizing right now that make it very difficult for a man to feel comfortable with even beginning to investigate what he's really like.
00:39:57
Speaker
which is not to say that, I'm speaking here more of the challenge of the males that are not alpha males. If we have time here, I'm going to give one more example here of this. I've had a lot of female clients
00:40:17
Speaker
who are the alpha doer achievement, often propelled or motivated by Saturn.
Impact of Alpha Women on Relationships
00:40:27
Speaker
They're continually being motivated to achieve and accomplish and do and so on. And they'll be with a guy sometimes who's not that type. And so they're always critical of him.
00:40:42
Speaker
You know, why is he not ambitious? You know, why is he seemed to be judged as being lazy and so on? Well, you can tell when you look at the chart. Yeah, some of them are lazy. It's true. But there's also the possibility of those that are just more in harmony with the way their life is day to day.
00:41:06
Speaker
you know, like here's this, here's a guy, let's say with no Saturn. He just may be sort of a Leo Taurus type of, I'm just using archetypes here, not sun signs. And it's a guy that's making really good money working as a bartender three nights a week. And then the rest of the time he's surfing or playing guitar or even maybe cooking for the woman, you know, or, you know, basically taking care of the house, you know, I mean,
00:41:36
Speaker
And so I usually say to these women, maybe you could learn something from him. That maybe he's got something figured out that you haven't yet. So that's just another one of the possibilities. There's so many different possibilities. Like, for example, no.
00:42:00
Speaker
Alpha type woman it would not make any sense for her to choose to be with a man that she competes with You know, so this in a sense like that it's it's to be with a guy whose sword quality is not being a warrior but loving to hold the space of the relationship and
00:42:20
Speaker
and to take care of things while she's out being alpha. And so he loves being of support into her achievement, shall we say. But then it can be the other way around. There are plenty of women who will find their fulfillment in their being a provider of nourishment to the guy. These are all very authentic roles that both men and women can have.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yes, thank you. And that's just a quick precursor to all of it, because I actually just saw that chart today, Leo and Taurus. It's interesting, those energies up. But at least gets us started talking about all these different expressions and accepting that in each other. I did it. I was married for a long time, projecting, hey, why don't you get up and do these things? Because I got all this fire in my chart.
00:43:18
Speaker
So I didn't understand why you couldn't match that. So, but this is why we talked about it. So it helps, we all have relationships, you know, we're humans. It doesn't mean romantic relationships. It could be business collaborations, you know, whatever it is, friendships. Even if it's this, meaning can we just have relationships where we can have these conversations in an open way without an agenda, without,
00:43:47
Speaker
Right? Looking for a mate or to fix anything or to whatever. And that's what I'm hoping that you're starting out here. So I really appreciate you giving us this opening into exploring different ways of expressing masculinity. And I hope you'll come back and we'll do a further exploration in this. Because I think it's really going to give a lot of people these options. You know? Do I have time to give one more example?
00:44:16
Speaker
Absolutely. Because, you know, we started this out, Lizzie, were you asking me about what it was like for me when I was young in my family situation? And I gave the example of the Mars and Scorpio Italian boy programming. But I can say, as a Capricorn moon, I most of my life I fell into another prevalent one that came down to me.
00:44:44
Speaker
maybe for lifetimes, but in the culture also, that in my relationships, I always took on the role of being the one who provided the money, the framework, the teaching, and so on in the relationship. And I was very attached to be in that position.
Personal Experiences Reshaping Roles
00:45:08
Speaker
Well, the way I was busted in that attachment was by having
00:45:14
Speaker
one long-term relationship of a woman who ended up being mentally problems. I mean, autistic, paranoid schizophrenia, and I could not help her. I could not help her. And then I had another relationship with a woman turned out to have kind of a multiple personality situation. I could not help her. So it's like I realized my over-identification and attachment to that
00:45:45
Speaker
sort of provider, teacher, hold it together kind of role also did not work. And so I had to get over that. I'm not saying that can't be a great one for some men. Exactly. That's what I was going to say, because that's your move position in this paradigm. That's the lineage what we come in with that we're not to, you know, use or stay, I call it stay stuck in, you know, but we can use the foundation of that
00:46:15
Speaker
But no, some men, people, women may also may have that as their purpose here. But then in society, these certain roles are looked upon as the man has the role that is disseminating the information, the managing the household, whatever, right? Providing and
00:46:40
Speaker
so but in your case there's an example it's like no that's that's i was supposed to take what i can do it wasn't until i completely went into the underworld in the chaos with the one who i could not help because of the craziness of the situation i found myself in that it wasn't until then
00:47:05
Speaker
is that I was actually open to being with someone who actually could, for example, handle the finances or who who had it more together than me in the middle world, you know, and so to be open to have that experience, I had to actually get busted of my attachment to that other role. And so what when you were busted of that, then what did that open you up to? What were you then able to express that you weren't before?
00:47:34
Speaker
to be open for a different kind of experience, you know, that which that I could actually receive and be open to the fact that somebody else could do something better than me. I guess you could say like that, you know, oh my God, you know, because Capricorn moons are supposed to have it together and to know how to know answers to everything, you know, that's the predicament of that particular position. And so then it's not always the path of least resistance to do that, but
00:48:03
Speaker
there's more alignment, right? Okay. And so that's again, the point, right? Then what I'm trying to bring out is that if we can drop those constructs of what it has either been told to us, or we brought in with us, or we grew up with, of what it means to be a man or a woman or whatever.
Men Learning Vulnerability
00:48:23
Speaker
I mean, there's actually a couple of workshops to talk about, you know, it's all totally about men being more vulnerable.
00:48:30
Speaker
you know, and but that's a really tricky thing. Because I know some guys that would say, well, yeah, I want to learn about vulnerability. So then I know what to guard against. You know, so in other words, I can even have a stronger armor. Because if I know about the where I'm vulnerable, well, I'm actually another form of vulnerability, the real vulnerabilities, we take the armor off, you know, and so you're trusting in the, in the in the wholeness of your energetic
00:49:00
Speaker
core self, whether it's cancer or Leo or whatever it might be. There's so many different expressions of what your core strength can be, what your sword quality as a man would be. I mean, that's the full spectrum. It's not all one size fits all.
00:49:21
Speaker
And I, to that point, I see that there are some men's movements and some groups and things happening. And at least from what I've seen, I haven't investigated a lot of them, but a lot of them still are like, let's, you know, end up with us all out in the woods with war paint and, you know, screaming. It's all because they're following the agenda of the alpha leader of that group. Right. You know, so it's very difficult to have it be a situation where
00:49:47
Speaker
you are valuing all the different expressions and because it's so easy for people to just want to be led, you know, rather than rather than to actually have the courage and this is another masculine quality, which is also the masculine quality within women, which is that capacity to have your autonomy, your sovereign to your wholeness and to
00:50:12
Speaker
to have your own sword, we could say, which is the capacity to identify your connection to your life purpose and to the aspect of who you are, which is yourself.
Archetypal Masculine Traits in All
00:50:30
Speaker
I mean, that is generally put on the category of the archetypal masculine, but that doesn't mean men. We're talking about archetypal masculine is in women and men.
00:50:41
Speaker
I see it as the action quality, right? I see my life purpose and I act on that. There's a way of acting on it, which is not the action of over literalizing it through action out there. It's the action toward claiming that for yourself. That's an action. Yeah. It's where it takes the courage. Absolutely. And so,
00:51:12
Speaker
You know, again, thank you, Daniel, for starting. I feel like just starting the conversation because you've given a lot of examples of some different options of expressions for both men and women, instead of the two or three that we're used to hearing.
00:51:31
Speaker
You know, I'll just say to a plug for the school and for us, you know, if anybody's really interested in finding out what the heck we're talking about with archetypes and different expressions of this and Capricorn moons and Mars and Scorpio, me too. You know, then reach out to Daniel or myself for a reading and see what essence is.
00:51:56
Speaker
Uh, you came in to express, you know, our, our blueprint, our set of instructions and give yourself and check out the website, you know, uh, turning, turning of the ages.com. Uh, there's so much beautiful free information that Daniel's written on and that he provides on that, on that website or become a member of the school and access even more of the information or take some of the courses like I have.
00:52:25
Speaker
Really give a deeper understanding. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Daniel, for sharing this time and for everything that you've taught me and that you helped me in developing this platform. So I hope that more men from all over the world can start having these conversations and living more into their authenticity and them being able to have these authentic relationships, which helps all of us. It's been my pleasure.
00:52:55
Speaker
Let's see you soon. All right. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Good night, everyone.