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00:00:01
All About: Pronouns
50 Plays4 months ago
Ready to level up your communication? This episode of Gender in Focus takes you on a journey through the transformative power of inclusive language, revealing how the simple act of respecting pronouns can change lives. Kai and El dive deep into the world of pronouns -from gender inclusion and neo-pronouns to navigating misgendering and even the choice of no pronouns at all. They share their thoughts on how small shifts in language lead to deeper connections, greater empathy and a more inclusive world. Whether you're unsure about how to address someone’s pronouns or how to correct a misstep with grace, this episode provides practical allyship tips to help you navigate the complexities of pronoun respect with confidence. Because using the right pronouns isn’t just about politeness; it’s about showing respect for who someone is. Join us for a conversation that will leave you not only more knowledgeable but also inspired to make the world a little bit more inclusive, one pronoun at a time.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Gender in Focus'
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello folks, this is Gender in Focus, a podcast exploring how to create a more inclusive world for trans and non-binary people. I'm your host, Kai Scott, and I use the pronouns he and him. I'm the president of Trans Focus Consulting. Each week, I dive into real stories and expert advice, offering practical tips and actionable takeaways to help you lead with kindness, confidence, and heart. Tune in to discover how you can make a positive difference. It's just a conversation away.
00:00:39
Speaker
In this episode, I'm joined by my colleague, who would you like to introduce yourself? My name is El I use both she and they pronouns and I am the coordinator at Transfocus. Fantastic. I'm really excited for this episode with you El to talk about the wonderful world of pronouns. I know it's a hot topic. Many people have a lot of really important and interesting questions and we're going to unpack some of those here today.
00:01:08
Speaker
with each other, we'll kind of get into some dialogue around it to hopefully clear up some of the kind of mystery or perhaps wanting to know more about this topic for folks who are just starting or are along their journey on gender diversity. So let's get into it.
00:01:27
Speaker
Pronouns is a topic that we've seen quite a lot of in the last few years, right? Um, whether that's on the news or on social media or even like a here Trans focus, it's a topic that provides a lot of talking points, right? You get a lot of questions in your sessions. Oh yeah. Very much so. People want to be able to get it correct. And that's why we thought this episode would be a really good place to start. So I guess with that, we should probably start with what is the big deal with pronouns. Why are they suddenly a thing? Why are we talking about it? Why should we be thinking about it?
00:02:02
Speaker
such a great question. And I know for some people, it might seem like it's coming out of thin air, maybe a bit of a surprise in the last maybe two to five years, seems to be popping up. Maybe people see it on LinkedIn profiles or email signatures, or all the various places that you just mentioned. And it can mean kind of kind of bit surprising, maybe even a bit confusing why this is such a big topic. And, you know, pronouns are basically shorthand for swapping out somebody's first name. So instead of saying Kai, somebody might use the pronouns he and him as a way to not repeat my name so often. So it's the way we talk about each other in the third person. There's many different types of pronouns. And so why it's such a big topic is that because we can't really assume everybody's pronouns just based on how they look.
Understanding and Avoiding Misgendering
00:02:54
Speaker
And so as a result, we are trying to put those out in various ways, whether verbally or in writing, to help kind of take out the guesswork for a lot of folks ah so that we can have those smooth interactions between folks.
00:03:10
Speaker
It's not something new, it's just we've started to talk about it and highlight it a little bit more in ways that might be feel a bit new for some folks. But there's actually a pretty straightforward way and pathway or kind of interacting with one another and navigating those. So that's a bit about pronouns and why they've popped up in the last little bit.
00:03:31
Speaker
I think where I was going to ask, like the the area that I wanted to ask for next was misgendering because when when we hear about pronouns, we hear about misgendering and we hear kind of those two in combination with each other when we're talking about trans folks. um So what what is misgendering then if we have pronouns?
00:03:49
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And misgendering is basically using the incorrect pronoun or gender-specific term. What I mean by gender-specific term is like woman or man or person, and the pronouns are he, she. There's also singular use of they/ /them
00:04:08
Speaker
And so if we perhaps jump to conclusions about somebody that we're meeting for the first time and kind of make assumptions about what their pronouns are, ah we could risk misgendering them. So using the incorrect pronoun for somebody.
00:04:23
Speaker
Another thing that can happen with ah misgendering is that perhaps somebody uses the singular um singular use of they them and that might not be as familiar to everyone and so they're not as practiced in that and so they may slip up and go back to a you know that she or they and so that's where misgendering can pop up.
00:04:45
Speaker
but Typically, it depends on like what kind of communication we're doing, whether it's by phone or by email. We're just looking at somebody's first name. By phone, maybe we're listening to the pitch of somebody's voice um to jump to a conclusion. and And when we're in person, that's where we're looking at how they look, the shape of their body, so many different things that we're taking in in a split second and jumping to that um kind of assumption or determination. Now,
00:05:15
Speaker
For the most part, when we make a guess for somebody we don't know, we we do can guess the right way. But for folks, trans and non binary folks in particular, they're disproportionately impacted by people guessing somebody's pronouns. So that's why it's a bit of a challenge, especially for trans folks.
Practicing Pronoun Usage
00:05:35
Speaker
No, that makes sense. And I think because it is pure guesswork, it can trip people up so often when we're coming to talk about things like introducing ourselves and and introducing our pronouns, how do we how do we ask for people's pronouns in a way that doesn't feel contrived or isn't awkward? Because like, so I know when I first started using my pronouns, ah deliberately introducing myself with them and asking other people for them, it felt so awkward and so uncomfortable. And I had to really like power through that. But if you're just starting, how do you so do you get used to that?
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm so glad you shared that because I think people want it to be the smooth thing right away, especially if it's a new practice like on any topic, it's going to be a bit awkward to begin with. And so I think that's an important thing to acknowledge is that it might not.
00:06:29
Speaker
you know, be smooth right away. And certainly practice really makes that a much more fluid, much more ah comfortable experience. If you think about something as parallel as land acknowledgements, I know when I started to do that about 10 years ago, I felt really awkward and I was like, am I saying this right? Should I be doing it in this order? Did I just, you know, kind of fumble over the Nation pronunciation? You know, like I got really in my head about it.
00:06:59
Speaker
And so the more that you can kind of, in front of a mirror with yourself or practicing with other people, just be able to say, you know, um I don't want to assume what are your pronouns. It's a perfectly valid approach. I generally advise folks to do that with anyone, not just the people you're unsure with, because trans and non-binary folks look in many different ways so there could be a feminine expressing person that is non-binary and so we don't want to miss that their pronouns by only asking people that perhaps are a bit more androgynous so
00:07:36
Speaker
that you know There's also ways that you can check around to see if somebody has already provided their pronouns, maybe in their email signature, on their resume, on LinkedIn. So you can already kind of source that information independent of that person.
00:07:52
Speaker
And then, like you, I also adopt the approach of, you know, as I introduce myself, um I ah share my pronouns along with other information so that people can but respond in kind if they wish with their pronouns um or skip over that detail and just provide, you know, their title or whatever else is important for the interaction.
00:08:15
Speaker
So there's a few different ways to obtain pronouns and you don't always have to go the direct route. If that feels uncomfortable, you can just be more situationally aware and not jumping to conclusions and instead using gender-neutral ah terminology until you know somebody a little bit better.
00:08:34
Speaker
Did you always feel comfortable with with giving pronouns and asking for pronouns? Because I always think of you as like a genius. Did you always feel comfortable with it or did it take you a while to get used to it as well? Yeah, I actually came out in the mining industry and so talk about a good choice to start with sharing pronouns. like Yeah, that was, I mean, that's its own story and maybe we'll, we'll share that along the way, but, or I'm happy to share that at some point. But as I was, you know, coming out sharing pronouns was really critical because at that point I hadn't medically transitioned in a way that I looked.
00:09:18
Speaker
ah in ways that society expected men to look. And so as a result, I had to for i wanted to forefront my pronouns to help people out ah so that they could, you know, gender me properly. And so it's you know, it was a bit nerve wracking in a ah room with people for whom that's not familiar. Uh You know, and certainly people were gracious in some respects, and then others had a lot of questions, which is understandable. And then others, you could see the panic in their eyes, and or the like, pondering question marks from their eyeballs. So, you know, just like, yeah, it was really, really awkward to begin with. And
00:10:03
Speaker
Even in some settings very terrifying because in some respects it's um it's going against the grain in a way that can you know, you just don't know what impact that'll have in terms of the relationship or how people will receive you and want to continue to work with me, etc, etc. And there's all these questions that come to mind.
00:10:26
Speaker
um and and just worries and so that that does factor into needing or wanting to share but certainly I was constantly trying to override those and and help with that information and of course not everybody is in that position either so we don't ever want to have people forced to do that if they don't feel that it's safe enough to do so but for me that was a decision I made.
00:10:52
Speaker
No, that's fair. I was actually going to ask about that next when you were talking. I was just thinking about how a lot of the time people will ask if there's ever a situation where it's rude to ask for or give pronouns or even like if there's any way that some people might take offense to that and and how to handle that because I guess it's all quite new for a lot of people.
00:11:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. ah Yeah, and it can catch some people off guard if they're not themselves trans or non-binary. And even some trans and non-binary folks, you know, maybe don't want to be asked directly or they're having to consider a complex set of variables in a, maybe they're new to an organization.
00:11:36
Speaker
they don't quite understand whether their manager or supervisor or leader is up to speed. And so they're cautiously kind of testing out and sharing pronouns, especially if it's their gender neutral or multiple sets of pronouns like that can really, you know, put somebody in a precarious position. So they may not feel They want to share their pronouns and certainly that's why we never force anybody to share pronouns. We always provide space and an opportunity. um But if somebody wants to skip that um or, you know, skip don't share it or you know decline, then we always want to respect that decision because it could be a non-binary person for whom you know sharing they-then pronouns is going to put them in a difficult spot. Or it could be ah somebody who is not transgender, or another word for that is cisgender.
00:12:30
Speaker
And so they may also not want to participate in that. We've certainly received feedback from cisgender women who they say some of them, not all of them, but some of them say, I don't want to forefront my gender because it's already such an issue in the workplace. And this just adds another layer to that. And I totally understand that.
00:12:51
Speaker
And so each person needs to make the decisions that are right for them when it comes to pronouns. And so, and that goes for both you know trans and non-binary folks as well as cisgender folks. So no pressure then.
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, no pressure. Another thing is if your second part of your question was about of people taking offense to being asked, um usually, especially among cisgender people, the offense is, well, it's obvious. Just look at me, right? And you know um you can very gently say, i just try not to make assumptions based on how people look, what their pronouns are. And so that's a simple way to address it.
00:13:31
Speaker
no need to to be defensive or admonish them for for being offended. But just a quick moment of it explanation i can help and, you know, no offense intended, that kind of thing. So usually that's enough to to kind of calm the situation or deescalate it. But certainly that that is one thing that can come up. It's not very often, but it can. And so just be prepared for that.
00:13:57
Speaker
That makes sense. You mentioned something a second ago about multiple pronouns and I was wondering if you could explain that because I think that's a topic that comes up a lot. ah When I'm looking over the questions, the anonymous questions that people send in, um that one comes up quite a lot. So could you explain that?
00:14:16
Speaker
Absolutely, yeah.
Multiple Pronouns and Gender Identities
00:14:17
Speaker
And I can appreciate why there are questions, because for the most part, up until now, people have had one set of pronouns. So for example, I use a single set, he, him, you know, there's a few other iterations of it, but it's, you know, one set. um Similarly, you know, my sister uses she her pronouns, right? So that's one set.
00:14:38
Speaker
But there are folks who use multiple sets. So for example, we have a colleague who uses she and they pronouns. Sometimes people provide additional instructions when they share multiple pronouns, other times not. For them, they do share. They say, I use she, they pronouns, but I prefer or prioritize they, them pronouns. So that kind of gives you a sense of, OK, I'll focus on the they /them part of this multiple set.
00:15:07
Speaker
For others, they they like when people toggle between the two, um and so it just really depends on the individual. Sometimes they'll share that, in which case it gives you some insight into what they're prioritizing. Multiple pronouns, often people are very curious as to why somebody uses multiple pronouns, like what's driving the need for this.
00:15:29
Speaker
ah There could be many different reasons and it's important, even if we're really curious, not to ask a lot of questions about this. I know people can be anxious and they want to do the right thing, which is coming from a good place. But oftentimes people with multiple pronouns, they can hesitate to share that they have two or more sets of pronouns because they're worried about all the the the like flood of questions they'll get because of it.
00:15:56
Speaker
which you know can happen. um And so the multiple reasons could be somebody is by gender, so has two genders at one time. So they're trying to reflect that in the two sets or more of pronouns. so Somebody could be integrating their past with their present and want to reflect that in their pronouns. There's somebody who could be cisgender, so not transgender, but that wants to be able to have they them or another gender neutral pronoun ah be more visible to others and maybe even give opportunity for folks to practice.
00:16:36
Speaker
ah So you actually don't know, you know, based on somebody's pronouns, what is at play for them. But really, it's just important to focus that they have, you know, two sets. And if there's no further instruction, either focus on one or the other. And if you feel really like you have you can handle it toggle between the two.
00:16:57
Speaker
I always say, especially if somebody has gender neutral pronouns as part of their set, that that gives us an opportunity to practice it. So I would prioritize the one that you have the least practice with.
00:17:11
Speaker
That's a nice way of looking at it. I like that. If someone is using they, them pronouns and sort of as a society, we're not, we're not used to that yet.
Societal Adjustments and Misgendering Statistics
00:17:24
Speaker
Shouldn't you be expected, expecting, sorry, to be misgendered? Like there is this sort of, you know what I mean? There's this like, it's very new. So should we just kind of accept that?
00:17:35
Speaker
Yeah, and certainly, you know, some people, that's their approach. You know, I'll just kind of jump to the conclusion about somebody's pronouns. And again, this is very much focused on folks that we don't know, right? So a stranger on the street or a new client or a new coworker or a new friend. You know, we again do that kind of look on the outside to determine what somebody is on the inside.
00:18:03
Speaker
um and Certainly, I can appreciate why people go for an easy approach, especially if it's a busy environment. There might be so many things that somebody is handling that it just feels easier to shortcut to something simple. um But unfortunately, what ends up happening is that, again, that disproportionately impacts trans and non-binary folks for whom the the rate of misgendering is staggeringly high. So um we have stats from a from Transpulse Canada that did a survey in 2019 of 3,000 trans folks across Canada and you know among non-binary folks it's you know I think upwards close to 75% that are misgendered on a daily basis.
00:18:51
Speaker
And so it's not just here and there. It's like every single day. And, you know, everybody has their way of of managing that level of ah being misgendered. But if there's something that we as a society could do to kind of pause on jumping to the conclusion.
00:19:08
Speaker
I feel like that would really make things a lot easier for folks. Certainly, there'll be other challenges, but that one is kind of taken off the table. um And there's just it's not relatively low amount of effort. Certainly, at the beginning, it's awkward and there's a bit of practice. ah But after that, there's like low effort or expenditure for somebody to have a like that much positive impact.
00:19:35
Speaker
And I also think about it, I offer this analogy if it's helpful for folks who speak other languages. For example, in French, in German, and I'm sure other languages, there's the formal you, and then there's the informal you. So you start with the formal, like vous in French. And then once you get to know somebody, you go to the tout, which is the the informal.
00:20:01
Speaker
And so I think this is a matter of respect. Like I don't actually know you yet enough to kind of put something on you and until we are a little bit further down the road to knowing and then we can switch and we have that deeper understanding. So I think there's something similar dynamic with pronouns. And this certainly isn't just helping trans and non-binary folks.
00:20:25
Speaker
There's also folks who are cisgender who get misgendered as well by this kind of shortcut fast approach. So we can kind of help these folks that are struggling, whether they're cis or trans, but by have taking this approach. Now, certainly it's not gonna happen overnight. We'll you know kind of fumble our way to something new, um but I think it is an important shift. Yeah, do do you I was gonna say, do you think that, or are you hopeful that this is going to be something that's really common in the future? I think so, yeah. I think, or are at the very least, you know additional sensitivity and understanding. I think it's hard for some folks, if they haven't personally been misgendered on a very regular basis, to grasp the the kind of weight of that. um It can feel like, what's the big deal? But it's not until folks
00:21:25
Speaker
either through having somebody do that to them, that they can start to sense that, hey, wait a second, they're not fully seen or recognized by others around them. And then I think people will start to appreciate, oh, this is a big deal. And it does create harm, even if it's not intended. Because of course, most people who mis gender her don't intend to, right? But I think there's some, I think people will still will eventually see that there is a need a broader need, not just trans and non-binary folks, but also cisgender folks, that is worth the the effort or the initial ah difficulty to to help more people.
00:22:07
Speaker
You did touch on this ah a couple of minutes ago, but I did want to ask you, um when it comes to getting people on board, and I think like a lot of people really worry about this, whether that's like maybe I'm on board, but my partner isn't or my co-worker's not, how do you know how do you combat that?
Addressing Pronoun Practice Hesitations
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah, ah well, with something new, you know, there can be hesitation, even dismissing it and resisting it. This is like, this is ridiculous. I don't think we need to do this because like too much doesn't make sense.
00:22:46
Speaker
usually folks who say those kinds of things have probably most likely not spent a lot of time knowing the kind of ins and outs of pronouns because for them it's a fairly easy experience. right the People see them for the people that they are and use the proper pronouns and so it's m and just setting aside some time to to talk some of that through with the other person um and not in a way that we're blaming or shaming them, but just more like, hey, I understand you you have some hesitation or you have some questions about pronouns and
00:23:22
Speaker
I'd love to to help with that. And so coming alongside as a supportive person. And also, I think there's some value in recognizing like you did at the outset to be like, yeah, I also felt this to be very awkward at first. And I was maybe a bit confused, you know, like, talk through his own journey around this, because like, it's not meant to dismiss those those moments.
00:23:48
Speaker
um But also like learning anything new, there's going to be this kind of initial period that if you're able to kind of get through, there's some really interesting and powerful moments. Like I once was at an an education session with counselors and this person you know took to heart what we had talked about and went back to their patients or their clients and then asked them what their pronouns were.
00:24:18
Speaker
and found a handful of folks that use they them pronouns and so it just had had not given space for that and was able to really connect with folks in a deeper way because space was provided right so it's just you And also we learn some things about ourselves too, like even if pronouns aren't a struggle for us, just the practice of it and the kind of leaning into and exploring and and looking at things can help clarify for oneself as well, right? So there's all kinds of really interesting things that can come of it if people are willing to kind of help others and help ourselves ah with that journey. What about if people don't use pronouns at all?
00:25:03
Speaker
Yes, that's a very important one and often either not known, lesser known, or completely overlooked as a viable, valid option for folks. So there are folks who will say things like, I don't use pronouns. And that's a very important way of navigating everyday interactions.
00:25:29
Speaker
And it might be a surprise to some folks that that people choose to opt out entirely, in which case people get very nervous because pronouns are so central to how we talk, right? um And that's where I think it's really important to slow down one's speech because we're so used to and kind of deeply, it's deeply habitual to use pronouns.
00:25:52
Speaker
um And in that case, you're only using that person's name. You're not short-cutting to a pronoun. and So we'll use the fake name of Amber, right? um We already have probably some pretty strong preconceived notions of what pronoun we would typically attribute to ah somebody with the name Amber.
00:26:15
Speaker
But in this case, we're just talking about Amber the whole time and not going to any other ah pronouns as part of that. It does take some practice. So I do encourage folks to either practice together with each other. I suggest writing out a story about Amber, where we're talking about Amber's dog and, you know, Amber walking down the street and, you know, Amber, Amber, Amber. So you really kind of kind of solidify that it's only the name without a pronoun.
00:26:47
Speaker
And again, there will likely be missteps, in which case a quick apology and correction can help with that situation. But certainly those are some of the things that can help with, you know, fifting into a no pronoun situation. So just get as much practice as you possibly can is your answer.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yes. And you know give yourself forgive yourself for making ah those missteps that could likely come because again, pronouns, we may not realize just how ingrained they are in how we talk and we think.
Neopronouns Explained
00:27:27
Speaker
I did also want to ask you about neopronouns because I've seen that come up a lot on social media. I do the social media um for trans focus and ah this is a topic that comes up quite often, surprisingly so actually. um So could you explain what a neopronoun is and why people are using neopronouns instead of the sort of more traditional pronouns that we're used to?
00:27:53
Speaker
good one and again this can also be a surprise similar to multiple pronouns or no pronouns is okay what's neo and if we break neo pronouns so if you break it down neo just means new and so basically ah folks or don't want to use he she they some pre-existing pronouns and they're creating their own or are are gravitating towards ones that have already been created ah by some folks. An example of it is ah ze and Zir So I'll give you an example in a sentence. ah ze walks down the street with zir dog, right? And so this is a way that somebody might say, I use ze/ zir pronouns, in which case, again, similar to other pronouns, there will be a period of practicing to make that.
00:28:45
Speaker
more fluid, especially since we might not have encountered that anywhere else. Some reasons why people are using neo-pronouns is because they are maybe not very comfortable with using they-them pronouns for themselves. They may be wanting to reflect some aspect of their gender identity in bringing those together, or they're wanting to be very much completely outside of the what's called the gender binary or reference to only men and women. And so there's many different reasons why people use neo pronouns. And there are different types of neo pronouns out there. um You know, these are being one example of that.
00:29:33
Speaker
So there's there's a lot there, but it's important no matter what somebody says their pronouns are that we respect them. Is there anything else that you would add to somebody who's just trying to get used to the idea of pronouns or was just trying to learn? Is there any final things you want to say about pronouns?
00:29:52
Speaker
yeah I mean this is such an important topic and I can appreciate that for some folks this is new and perhaps nerve-wracking and I just advise folks to you know be with that kind of nervousness and still kind of proceed and just to be really conscious when you're meeting somebody new. I think that's the kind of main place where a lot of misgendering happens is if we just we don't know somebody.
Final Thoughts and Listener Engagement
00:30:22
Speaker
Certainly it also happens when somebody comes out as trans and there's maybe a new set of pronouns that we weren't used to and whatnot. So there's many different types of scenarios but the main one is really when we're meeting somebody new. So if you can slow that down
00:30:37
Speaker
and just be very much present for this new person, this new interaction, you'll find that you're picking up not just on pronouns, but a lot of other really important information where we're not kind of getting ahead of ourselves too much.
00:30:53
Speaker
I think where, you know, any interaction where we kind of get ahead of ourselves, we miss opportunities of really being with each other. And so that's where I hope, you know, the pronoun practice is is a very direct thing or call to action, but it actually has much more broader benefits to to everyone to to be with each other in ah in ah in a better and kind of more fulsome way, not least is my hope. um And other tips I've kind of already mentioned in terms of practicing. And if you do make a mistake, it's okay. I mean, again, people are not asking for perfection or 100% always right.
00:31:37
Speaker
But if you're able to show that you're making an effort and you recognize when you've gone like this, even if you didn't intend to, then it's important to acknowledge it and corrected and apologize and then move on and.
00:31:53
Speaker
you know, there is kind of a world once you've pushed past that discomfort where it does become easy and you're able to be with people in a way that you will maybe be surprised like how big of a deal this is for folks and how excited they are when people make the effort and you're able to have that that much deeper of a relationship with each other. So yeah, that's my invitation and my hope and I'm so thankful that everybody tuned in to listen to our podcast about pronouns. Certainly we're always here to listen to what your kind of burning questions are. We've got lots of great episodes coming up to talk further and in more detail
00:32:39
Speaker
about all kinds of issues related to gender diversity. ah But we're always responding to what you, the listener, are wanting to explore. So ah certainly there's a lot of opportunity on social media to provide that feedback. And we're always listening and look forward to to being in further discussion in future episodes. So we'll sign off from here. Thank you so much, El was lovely to talk to you about this issue. and Thank you for having me. Yes, absolutely. And we'll look forward to the next episode. Great. Thank you very much. Bye.