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Friendship and Professionalism - Ep 257
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We’re talking about friendship and professionalism on the podcast today. Do you make, or try to make, life-long friendships on projects? Do you try to keep your archaeology life and personal life separate? What about being friends with your employees, bosses, or subordinates? These are all concerns that people have and we relate our experiences on this episode.
Transcripts
For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/257
Follow Our Panelists On Twitter
Bill @succinctbill; Doug @openaccessarch; Stephen @processarch; Andrew @AndrewKinkella, Chris W @Archeowebby, @DIGTECHLLC, and @ArchPodNet
Blogs and Resources:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Stephen Wagner: Process - Opinions on Doing Archaeology
- Chris Webster: Random Acts of Science
- Andrew Kinkella
Kinkella Teaches Archaeology (Youtube)
Blog: Kinkella Teaches Archaeology
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
Episode Overview: Friendship and Professionalism
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast episode 257 for February 8th, 2023. I'm your host, Chris Webster. And on today's show, we talk about friendship and professionalism in the workplace. So go check your social media friends and start unfriending people or making new ones because the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
00:00:49
Speaker
Welcome to the show everyone. Joining me today is Bill in California. Good morning. Heather in California. Hi everyone. Doug in Scotland. And Andrew, sorry, let me say, and Dr. Waxing his surfboard, Andrew Kinkela in Southern California.
00:01:13
Speaker
Yes. We don't often record the stuff before we hit recording, but you know, we were just talking about community college life in Southern California. So I think I think we nailed it. So that might come
Life in Southern California and Work-Life Balance
00:01:25
Speaker
up today. We'll talk about it. But primarily how it's part, well, you know, if you're in Southern California, it's part surfing and some learning. I'm not going to say what percentage is surfing versus archeology, but surfing is involved. We definitely now know.
00:01:41
Speaker
Which, which part of this is the downside? I don't know. Besides I can't surf. That's the only downside. Yeah. Well, Berkeley is part, part learning and part protesting. So, you know, there you go. Yeah, I'm good at those things.
Navigating Friendship and Professionalism
00:01:58
Speaker
All right, so the topic for today, we have a Slack team that we communicate on for this show and to talk about what we're going to do. And Doug brought up friendships and professionalism. So Doug, why don't you give us an idea of what you were talking about there? Yeah, well, a couple of thoughts in there. But just to throw it out there to begin with, it was ideas. Obviously, you've been a good portion of your life, probably about a third of
00:02:27
Speaker
you know, you're weak at work with your colleagues. And so there's a good chance you're going to make friendships. And how do you guys feel about that in archaeology? So friendships, both of like, you know, making your wider sort of friendships, but also working with your friends. Do you guys have any sort of strict, you know, friendly, but no friendships? Or do you actually like to go see your coworkers outside of work and hang out?
00:02:57
Speaker
Apparently if you're Andrew, just surf all the time, but for everyone else, maybe Chris, RV buddies, I'm not sure what everyone does in their free time. Obviously we're not friends outside of the podcast, so I don't know what you guys do in your spare time, but that's a question I'm going to just throw out to you guys and we'll
Friendships in CRM and University Settings
00:03:16
Speaker
take it from there.
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. What's crazy is when I did cultural resources, I had a lot of people I worked with that were my friends that I hung out with. Not so much at all since I work at the university, like it's almost as if I just make sure to stay away from everyone except for a couple of folks at work.
00:03:34
Speaker
Yeah, I would almost agree. I mean, I've got some friends that I've made through CRM that I'm still friends with and we still do occasional things together with, you know, mostly virtually to be honest, like Richie, Richie Cruz, who him and I do the live stream on the APN channel on Facebook every once in a while and on his YouTube channel. So we, we keep in touch that way. But you know, to be honest, yeah, most of them, the only friend I really met on a project that I'm still occasionally talk to is my wife, actually. She, um,
00:04:03
Speaker
But we met on my very first project and, but only for like a couple of days and then the project got shut down for winter. But then coincidentally, we were both on a project in downtown Miami, which I'm sure I've talked about on the show in the past, but that was a six month, six or seven months we were there together. And that's when we got to kind of know each other. And it wasn't that time, but a little bit later, you know, we started dating and then, yeah, we've been together ever since that was in.
00:04:26
Speaker
That was in 2005 that we met on that first project. And then 2006 was basically the Miami project. So yeah, long time ago, but there's still through the magic of social media. I do keep in touch with occasionally, you know, a lot of other people, but I don't know if I would call those friendships to be honest with you. What about you, Doug?
00:04:44
Speaker
Is that, well, I was actually asked Chris, is that like through, so Bill said his was a bit more by choice, but is that through choice? Is it just something that sort of happens or do you have like a sort of rule of keep, keep work, work, a social, social sort of thing, or is it just how it sort of happened? And also kind of this kind of nature.
00:05:06
Speaker
of CRM as well. Especially, I guess it differs for different parts of your career where when you're starting out, you're going to be friendly with people, but then the project might end after three weeks and you may not see these people again for another 10 years if you even do or ever again.
Maintaining Professional Relationships
00:05:24
Speaker
You know, it's like a rule or definitely not. No, no structured thing. The only thing I would say is, you know, I try not to burn bridges unless they're bridges. I really don't ever want to cross again, right? There's definitely some people that we've all worked with that.
00:05:41
Speaker
I just don't care to talk to those people ever again. So I'm not going to reach out and try to be friends with them. I don't really unfriend people on Facebook unless they're really pissing me off and it's just stuff I don't want to see if they're just like a big spammer, as far as social media goes.
00:05:57
Speaker
But that being said, those people like you just said, Doug, it might be a three-week project and 10 years, you don't speak to them for 10 years, but in 10 years, one of those people might be in a position to give you a job. You know what I mean? They might be in a full-time job at a company. They might have moved up in the world and maybe you have too, and they need another project manager. Now you're a project manager.
00:06:17
Speaker
I don't know. You just never know what's going to happen because this field is so dynamic and so changing. You just want to keep those doors open. Now, I wouldn't say you want to do it somewhat artificially.
00:06:29
Speaker
I have a lot of people that reach out to me on Facebook and sometimes Twitter, but mostly Facebook that say, Hey, no, no, hi, how you doing? We haven't spoken in 10 years or, you know, something like that. What's going on? Just I'm looking for work. Do you have a job for me? Or do you know anybody that's hiring? I'm like, why am I the person you're asking for that first off? But second, like, hi, how's it going? We haven't talked
00:06:54
Speaker
even if I did have a job, I probably wouldn't give it to you because I haven't heard from you in 10 years. So yeah, from a professionalism standpoint, I would say,
00:07:04
Speaker
you know, keep those doors open, keep those bridges open for us, so to speak. But yeah, it's just, uh, you know, keep it going. And Doug, I see that you say we're no longer FB friends, but I know we were in the past and you probably unfriended me because you're hardly on Facebook to begin with. You probably just went through an unfriend and a whole bunch of people, to be honest. And then it's like your wife and like your mom. I was a joke.
00:07:30
Speaker
I got to find my password to log in. I need to figure out how to log into Facebook. You haven't seen you on there lately, Bill, either. Yeah, I'm hiding. I'm a lurker. You're on every now and then. Yeah. Yeah. I should also say, just to make it clear, like to make distinction is like, obviously, I think we're all recommending being friendly with your coworkers, but it's sort of taking that extra step of friendship where you consider someone
00:08:00
Speaker
a friend as opposed to just friendly with. We all have a large social network of acquaintances who we are friendly with, but these are not people that you would normally call up and hang out with outside of conferences or work and stuff like that. That's more what I'm talking about is people who you would see outside of work interactions on a more regular basis.
Team Dynamics and Communication
00:08:28
Speaker
I struggled with this for a little while, and then I just let it go. We have a team, and we work together. We're very communicative. We have various different platforms that we talk to each other. We text, we have Zoom,
00:08:45
Speaker
that the Zoom really took off during COVID, like for everyone else. And phone calls and our team, there's probably texts that are going on. We probably have like a hundred texts over the day between all of us. And then we text, we also have a text group chat and we just genuinely
00:09:04
Speaker
like each other. In fact, I would say we love each other really and we are one team. We go through a lot together. We've gone through a lot over the years and the people that come into our team, we've had some people come and go. We have some people that are still on our personal private group chat. So we have
00:09:24
Speaker
We've played around with having two different chats, but they always mix them up. For a while, because I'm the lead, I supervise everybody that's on the team. There were times where I thought to myself, am I supposed to separate myself?
00:09:39
Speaker
This is difficult. But then I realized, you know, the reason our team is so tight and the reason why we are so effective is because we care for each other deeply. And when it's worked, I mean, we've all gone through difficult times in our lives and we've filled in for each other. And the reason we, our team has stayed together for so long is because they have that flexibility because people genuinely care. And there is this,
00:10:05
Speaker
there is this trust with each other. And so, you know, I look at supervision as a coach. I don't look at it like I'm here to kind of lure it over you and to make sure you're doing everything you're supposed to be doing. If you're doing it right and you establish a relationship where you're more of a coach and you're helping people, you know, guide them through their professional life and then
00:10:31
Speaker
the good work will come with that. And so I thought, you know what, if you're a coach, there's nothing wrong with being a friend, you know? And so I kind of, there was a while where I struggled with and I thought, am I allowing
00:10:44
Speaker
Am I blurring lines here that is going to have a negative side? And I don't think so. I've decided that I'm just not going to worry about that anymore. Of course, there are some people that treat friendships a little differently. I don't bear my soul to people.
00:11:01
Speaker
There are certain levels of friends that I do, and one of them is as a coworker. But for the most part, I found that line, and maybe I stretch it farther than most. But to me, it's been a real positive, and there's no escaping it. Especially with how many hours I work,
00:11:18
Speaker
It's just impossible. Do I have friends outside of work? Absolutely. I do. I have a great friend network outside of work, but I deeply care and love my team and we are true friends outside of work. I'm thinking that sounds like a situation I haven't necessarily ever had at work, especially in archaeology. The funny thing is that our team, we're from all different, I think one key is,
00:11:46
Speaker
We're from all different.
00:11:49
Speaker
worlds, really. We have all grown up very differently. We have different perspectives on life, which actually makes our group really dynamic and fun. But there are certain things we never talk about. We never talk about politics. And we've never said, we're not going to talk about politics. It's an understood. And that is a key, I think, especially in work. And I do think that that is, as far as professionalism goes,
00:12:17
Speaker
I think that that's something that has been lost over the years in the professional circles. And I really think that not talking about certain topics that, you know, back in the day would say at the dinner, you know, at family dinners, right? You don't talk politics and you don't talk religion or, you know, the kind of the joke or in a work setting. And, you know, we're anthropologists, so not talking about religion is hard, but
00:12:43
Speaker
And even politics, that's hard, but I do think there are certain lines that you have to be careful not to cross. Even if people are aligned with you and believe the same thing you do, there's a certain level that you need to
00:13:03
Speaker
you need to draw with yourself in a professional environment. And you don't go past that. Because when you do that, even if people may agree with you, they're still going to say, okay, you know, you actually as a professional have to, I think you have to demonstrate that you
00:13:20
Speaker
know that there's like, right, we have code switching that we talk about in that anthropology, that we know the environment we're in, and we draw that line. Like that's clear, that there are certain things we're not going to talk about. And I do think that when you do, when you cross over that line, that you alienate others, you alienate yourself.
Organic vs. Forced Work Culture
00:13:42
Speaker
And
00:13:43
Speaker
I do think that that is something that's important that people coming up in the business need to understand. In this day and age where we're talking about politics all the time, I do not think in a business setting it's the best. I can definitely hear that. My job is now it's basically politics.
00:14:02
Speaker
It's like all anyone ever wants to talk about, but I feel like personality is the critical piece. There are some people that you can talk about that kind of stuff, but because you have personalities, you work well together with that person or you relate to that person really well. I think that's the key piece. Etiquette is good, but
00:14:23
Speaker
You know, the folks that are my friends that, you know, we did archeology together, we met at work. Those are folks that our personalities worked out well. And that's how we've remained friends over these many years. Hmm. Yeah. I, you guys are all so serious and everything. When I'm not surfing, I'm making friends, dude. That's what I'm doing. So like what I would say is I think that friendship is vital.
00:14:48
Speaker
you know, in the workplace, although you are talking to somebody who met his wife at New Faculty Orientation, right? When I started at Moorpark College, I have a couple really deep friendships that I've made at the college. And what's so great is a place like Moorpark is small enough where like I go motorcycle riding with a chemistry professor, I've been working on a screenplay with a theater professor, you know, and it's kind of like,
00:15:14
Speaker
Bill was saying, there's a handful of personalities that I meet and I really get along well with. It's cool to talk with these people because you have a mutual understanding. In this case, you're both college professors. In the CRM world, you're both archaeologists. I think it's pretty easy to form really lasting, important friendships in these worlds. Before jumping into the break, I was just going to ask a question to Heather and Andrew as you guys tend to be the ones who
00:15:43
Speaker
have friendships at work.
Impact of Workplace Friendships on Conflict
00:15:46
Speaker
So this is from a personal experience, and non-archeology related, but the job how I met my wife. It was quite an intense job where we all lived together. It was new student orientations. We were orientating the new students in undergrad. And they designed it, you know, lots of team building.
00:16:05
Speaker
everyone was really close, 20 really close people, everyone were friends, we hung out on weekends and stuff. It was good, so we did it for a couple of years. The first year, no problems, even with people having relationships and stuff like that and breaking up, nothing like that. One of the other members who basically everyone was friends with
00:16:24
Speaker
ended up getting fired and it caused a lot of issues in that everyone thought it was unfair and it basically turned everyone against the management as it were because it wasn't just someone getting fired when your coworkers
00:16:42
Speaker
It was your really good friend getting fired for a reason that no one particularly thought was valid. And it was, it was a technicality basically. And so have you guys run into as well? Like if you're having friends at work, how does that influence anything when things go bad or the next round of layoffs at the California state university? I don't know. There's a term for it, but you guys, you know, all your California schools.
00:17:09
Speaker
Okay. You guys are going to answer that question on the other side of the break because we are at the end of segment one and on the other side, we'll get the answer to that question. Cause I've got a response to that as well. And we will also find out if Andrew is his screenplay that he's writing, if he's writing himself into the next Indiana Jones series, which I'm guessing is probably true. We'll talk about that on the other side of the break back in a minute.
00:17:37
Speaker
Welcome back to the CRM archaeology podcast, episode 257. And at the end of the last segment, Doug was asking a question about...
00:17:46
Speaker
basically making friends at work and what happens kind of when it goes wrong to summarize, right? When that friend has an issue or something, you know, gets fired, whatever, how do you kind of deal with that? And I can tell you, two circumstances I can think of, well, really three, one, there was, you know, obviously people dating, that is like, obviously a little more advanced form of friendship, but that does happen on projects, you know, when they get to know each other and then they start dating.
00:18:10
Speaker
I remember two people just got into a massive fight at a project hotel and one of them just basically walked off the job, which is going to happen and they took off. So that was definitely a ramification of letting that friendship get obviously into that mode and then having it not work out. That's a risk that you take there. But also in response to say relationships, I saw a couple get divorced over this because one of the employees actually quit over just being frustrated.
00:18:37
Speaker
They were both working at the same company and the other employee did not quit and just kept working there. And it was like, not that you have to quit in solidarity, but they kept working in the same situation. And in fact ended up working there for a while and they ended up getting divorced. And I have no idea, no doubt that it was more than likely in response to just that difference of opinion. Like how can you still keep working there for those people, that kind of thing. And then my own example is... Somebody just had to make a paycheck.
00:19:07
Speaker
But like I said, though, my own example, this is before Rachel and I were even married. I like rage quit during my one year review and told my boss to def off during the review. So that was pretty much the end of my employment at a company in South Carolina. And Rachel heard this from down the hall. She was working in the lab at her computer and essentially shut her computer down and walked out with me. And we both just that's what basically kicked off our
00:19:33
Speaker
We had been dragging our feet on this, but that's what basically kicked off our shovel bombing across the United States from South Carolina to the west where we really want it to be. We were just dragging our feet on leaving that position and we just, yeah, we would like someone to want to work with. I mean, I have a million questions about that one too, but I don't want to.
00:19:51
Speaker
Cause the question is what was she ready to really shovel bomb and live out of a car? I mean, was she really ready? It was, you know, we both hated working in the Southeast. We both hated it. It was, no, she loves, she loves security. She loves a good, she loves a secure paycheck and she will, she will sit through a.
00:20:07
Speaker
poor situation longer than I will. But a lot of people are in that boat, right? They just, they just like, man, I've got a salary job. This is good. I hate the people I work with and my boss is a dick, but I have a paycheck and a lot of people get stuck into that situation and they just
00:20:22
Speaker
They just won't take the risk to move on. Well, that's not me. I will take that risk. I will live in the car. And we weren't married at the time. She could have easily said, hey, I'm staying here. I'm like, OK, well, I guess we'll work this out. But she quit with me. And we've sold both of our cars, released a Toyota 4Runner because it was bigger than the two smaller cars that we had, put all of our stuff in there, and basically started shoveling across the country for two years until we made it to Nevada. So that was it.
00:20:49
Speaker
Chris, you just have to own that you actually had a Jerry Maguire moment.
Balancing Professionalism and Friendship
00:20:55
Speaker
Like that's amazing. Congratulations. I'm jealous. There's nothing better than those moments. I love those moments, but yeah.
00:21:05
Speaker
No, I mean, going back to the question about folks that you like that you're friends with leaving the company or whatever, that scenario is the number one reason why I haven't had those kind of relationships, especially with supervisors that CRM companies, because it's really common for you to like someone or to see what happened to them as unfair when looking at it from the company
00:21:30
Speaker
perspective, they might have had rules, they might have done something wrong, they might have actually cost the company a lot of money or done something super dangerous, and they're getting fired as protecting your job because then this person who's a liability is no longer causing problems. But because you like that person, all you see is the supervisors
00:21:48
Speaker
you know, taking action against your colleague. That is the number one reason why I don't ever remember. There's a couple of supervisors I've had before that have been my friends. You know, my first company, they were definitely that family kind of company. But since then, I just worked for corporations and you know, the supervisors and friends are not the ones that get invited to hang out at my kid's birthday party or even have a drink with me after work, right? So that collegiality
00:22:15
Speaker
I've noticed is, you know, kind of forced it seems like at the job where I work right now because there's some folks that I just, I don't even want to spend more than five seconds talking to more than just a, you know, common high. You know, thanks for being a good fellow citizen. I have no interest in what's going on with you and don't want to spend any time talking to you or listening to you any more than I must.
00:22:37
Speaker
And the folks that are of the higher levels are definitely at that. And what's sad is those are the ones who are supposed to be helping and mentoring me, but it's just not... I'm like Fred Flintstone now, man. When the bell rings, I slide down the brontosaurus and just get on the subway and just drive away from there, man. Just try to leave it all back there.
00:22:58
Speaker
So a lot of stuff has changed because early on we were hanging out together. We were camping out there. We were doing projects. Everyone was living together.
00:23:08
Speaker
there's a couple people that you don't like that you just don't really hang out with. And every now and then there were supervisors, they would do really great things, you know, stop work on Friday and folks would hang out and have ice cream or, you know, have crazy baked good contests. Instead of the morning meeting, we would sit and eat brownies and stuff. And there was just really cool stuff that happened at the smaller place. Now it's kind of like,
00:23:29
Speaker
If someone offered me a brownie, I'd wonder, why are you giving me this brownie? Like, what do you mean? Like, what is this? Do I owe you something now? Is it poison? Why are you giving me a brownie? Because you've never even talked to me once ever. And sure enough, the minute you accept that, they ask you to do something, or they ask for something, or they tell you something that's unsolicited, or basically, they're just a, you know, general, you know, uncomfortable person to be around.
00:23:53
Speaker
And so I found, like I was saying before, personality. I had much more in common with people who are doing cultural resources than people who are professors or work for universities. And I just don't find any, you know, it just seems like everyone's an actor that's acting something out. They don't ever speak clearly. They don't ever let you know what they're thinking or what their motivations are. And it's just a really, you know, really, really fake place to work.
00:24:22
Speaker
Cause at any second, any second that I say on this podcast or anything at work immediately can cause protests.
00:24:31
Speaker
for just like we don't even know why. You know, someone wakes up, they're drinking their cup of tea, they hear what I say, the next thing you know, there's some kind of huge battle and you know, it's time for me to go, I've got to quit my job, everything that I've done is the worst in the world. And so no one ever speaks, no one's ever true to their word, no one ever says anything out loud that they're actually thinking because they never know what someone else is going to do and you were staying in a job, you know, longer than you should or whatever.
00:24:59
Speaker
That is academia. Everyone who's made full professor has cracked that state in the job longer than they should have. And they're just never ever going to leave, right? So when you work in an environment that's like that, there's not going to be friends that are going to come out and you're not going to have colleagues that you're hanging out with and going camping and stuff with.
00:25:19
Speaker
Just a quick fact check. You guys are all California based. Weed's legal there now, right? That brownie is a bit more than just a brownie, is it not? Depending on the town, psychedelic mushrooms could have been decriminalized too. You could be getting something that's going to get the truth out of you.
00:25:39
Speaker
I totally agree with you, Bill, because actually, especially now in the workplace, we're seeing this movement towards a forced culture where companies are constantly trying to sell their culture. And it seems very disingenuous. I mean, I think that sometimes I really wish that the higher-ups would look and realize and really do a survey that's truly anonymous and realize that this concept of forced culture is detrimental. And in fact, I personally believe
00:26:08
Speaker
This could be a whole other podcast. I personally believe it's a form of gaslighting. When people are having an issue in a company, and then you have this concept of a forced culture where everybody's supposed to act like everything is wonderful and rosy, and we love each other. It not only dilutes the true relationships, but it also makes people wonder, wait a minute.
00:26:32
Speaker
I'm having these problems and I'm not supposed to have these problems because everything's supposed to be wonderful. This company has the most amazing culture ever and everybody's supportive of each other and the company only wants the best for its employees. I don't think there's anything wrong with the company going that direction and supervisors going that direction trying to make these inroads towards creating a good
00:26:55
Speaker
comfortable, supportive culture. But when it's done to check the box so that a company can say they have this, it feels disingenuous and it does not allow for a counter for people to say, you know what, I don't feel this right now. And then it becomes gaslighting. And so I think a forced relationship is a problem for me, my personal
00:27:21
Speaker
Like I said, I struggled with it for a while, and this is something that just came over time. What we have, and this was actually dictated by other people on the team, not me. They're the ones who started the personal chats over the weekends. We're sending pictures. They're sending pictures. Everybody's chatting back and forth, laughing with each other throughout the entire week, including the weekend.
00:27:44
Speaker
And if people want, we respect, if people want to shut down, we also have people had their phones paid for, right? So that makes a difference. So you have a work chat and if you don't want to be a part of that work chat, you just turn off your work phone. But I do think that if something like that evolves on a team, it's really hard to shut that down. And I don't think it's a good thing to shut it down, but people can come and go and they can participate as much as they want.
00:28:11
Speaker
Although I do understand all the concerns and just like, you know, like what Bill is saying. He's the one who's, he's regulated. He's like, I want to go this far. I don't want to go this far. And for his own personal reasons. But I think for us, it's worked, but it's something that has happened.
00:28:31
Speaker
genuinely over time. It's never been something, okay, like I said, I'm going to create a culture with our team and it's going to be this, this, this and this. It's just happened over time because we have good people that work hard, that genuinely care about each other,
00:28:47
Speaker
that love each other, want the best for each other. And it's hard to keep people away when they feel that way, right? And to fight that and to say, no, we have to have these lines. I just think that it's something that if you have it, it's something that's really special. And when you were talking about supervisors and people getting fired for good reason, sometimes you have people that are being given a hard time for the wrong reasons. And I've seen that happen.
00:29:16
Speaker
And when you have genuine relationships that have just happened because you're good people with the right intentions, you have people that genuinely know you and are willing to stand up for you. And that's
00:29:32
Speaker
That's a special thing. And so sometimes those things benefit in the long run. And that's not why you have a relationship like that. But I think there's two sides to it. And I think that you just have to be very thoughtful in how you interact in the workplace.
00:29:48
Speaker
I'm reminded I saw something on one of the social media platforms a couple of months back, where they're just like, yeah, if someone's trying to hire you, and they say, oh, yeah, we're more of a family than a company, you know, you're just about to get screwed.
00:30:04
Speaker
Yes. When people say that, it means that they're trying to create something. Like we have, our company had this thing called a no a-hole policy. And at one point I told, I told our vice president, I was like, honestly, I never want to hear that again. Cause the company that says they have a no a-hole policy has an a-hole problem. If you have to say you have no a-hole policy, yeah, you have a problem with that.
00:30:29
Speaker
Yeah, totally. All that stuff is so disingenuous. I can't agree with you more, Heather. I hate that false, like work culture crap, you know, it has to be organic. And when it's organic, it can't be beat, you know, so it's like, I think it's groups who can't get that organic thing happening. They do this false thing to try to compete and it never does. Yep.
00:30:53
Speaker
And also it's going to be really alienating as well. The reason why I'm pretty anti on like developing friendships and work is just because some people might not have the time. I think a couple of us on here have kids and understand that like, you know, for a good decade, plus your life, you don't really have weekends other than like.
00:31:17
Speaker
kid related things. And maybe some of your coworkers have kids and that works out too, but yeah, there's that sort of exclusion. And then also there's some people who just, you just want to go to work and then have work and you don't, that's not your thing. And I think it can be really, it's really tough in that like maybe like 90% of your team is in this close friendship bubble. And there's that 10% that's not, and there's that
00:31:45
Speaker
I think it's really hard. I think some people can do it, but not everyone. I think we've all probably seen somewhere where someone gets promoted or someone gets a better job or they're not forced to go do the 600 shovel tests in the rain or the blizzard because
00:32:08
Speaker
their friends with the boss or their friends with whoever's giving out the job. I think that could cause a lot of problems. I don't know if you guys have anything other than some people who can really compartmentalize and have friendships and make sure it doesn't affect it, but I think it's a big risk because
00:32:27
Speaker
Even if it's not for that reason, people will still jump to that reason that, oh, they got a better job because of friendship.
True Friendships vs. Acquaintances
00:32:36
Speaker
And that might not be the case, but it's always at risk of the impression, which a lot of times it's your impression, your view of the world that matters, not necessarily the facts.
00:32:47
Speaker
I totally agree with you, Doug. And that's another thing that I've struggled with. But I'll say for the people on our team, we have people between the most Northern person on our team and most Southerly person on our team. We have about 400 miles, right? So we're not going out on weekends with each other. That does not happen. I do set up things when we go out in the field and we have a nice cocktail hour, we go out to dinner, but you would do that with the team anyway.
00:33:16
Speaker
And I think that it's very hard to define friendships and it's hard to control friendships. I mean, if you're caring, you care for each other and there's all different types of friendships, right? So anybody who comes into our team can exercise this collegiality in any way they want.
00:33:34
Speaker
And sometimes, is that unfair in other circumstances? Yes. In our circumstance, it's not because everyone is treated the same way. Everyone's invited to be part of that in the same way. And I think maybe our situation is different because we truly do not. We don't go out on the weekends because we're not near each other. Now, we've had baby showers, but in a work setting,
00:34:00
Speaker
You know, you're going to do that anyway, where you're going, you know, some people where you invite people, but we would never, if we have somebody has a personal, like a, a, a personal event, like a baby shower.
00:34:12
Speaker
everyone on the team is invited. We've never had that. We would never exclude somebody. And if somebody decides not to come, there's never any thought of they didn't come for a certain reason. We've had people that we have people on our team right now that decide that they're not into as much of the interaction on the weekend. And that's fine. And they're not treated any differently. But I do think that
00:34:39
Speaker
You know, I think, you know, if somebody has, does not hold themselves, is an unfair person, if the supervisor's unfair, if people on the team hold things against each other, yeah, you know what? That is going to be unfair, but that would be unfair whether you have friendships or not. Hey Heather, it almost sounds like you guys operate in a mature adult manner. Thank you. It's hard to define exactly. Right. That's weird. Just respectful of each other.
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Let's, uh, call this segment and then we'll pick it back up in segment three. And we've got some stuff to wrap this up with back in a minute. All right. Welcome back to the third and final segment of episode two 57 of the Sierra Markiology podcast. We're talking about friends and professionalism. And you know, I, I want to bring up something Heather touched on a little bit in segment one, but just kind of close this out with an obvious question to be honest. And, and that is,
00:35:32
Speaker
How close of friends should you be with your bosses? And those could just be crew chiefs. They could be project managers. They could be the company owners, depending on the size of the company and the relationship you have with these people. I mean, I definitely work for companies where I never met the owners. Never met the PIs, for that matter. We were just hired to be out in the field. And we only met either the crew chief or maybe a project manager.
00:35:50
Speaker
and that was it. But there's still people in leadership positions at that company, whether they're also temporary or they are salaried or permanent with that company is not really part of the issue. It's just they're in a leadership position over you.
00:36:05
Speaker
In that context, we also are in very crazy situations that most people are not ever put in. Heather, you're talking about working with your company in Southern California. But while you guys do have projects where you have to stay in a hotel room like every company does, you do a lot of stuff locally, too. And you might have that ability to just check out at the end of the day, go home, and then you've got your personal life there. And Monday through Friday, you're in the office or you're doing local stuff. And then on the weekends,
00:36:32
Speaker
you know, you're doing your own thing with your family, like a lot of people who work do. So it's a weird conversation to have because a lot of people maybe aren't like close friends with their employee, with their, their coworkers or even their, the people that work for them or the people they work for.
00:36:46
Speaker
because they don't have to be, right? But when we're out on a project, even a long-term project or a short-term project, it doesn't matter. And you're camping or you're in a hotel room and you see these people almost 24 hours a day, right? It's just, it's a lot and it's the whole week. And sometimes it's 10 days at a time. Some longer term projects in the middle of nowhere, you might actually be there on the weekends with other people, like on the four days off, or if it's five days a week on the two days off, cause the company's covering that hotel as well. You know, it's a lot. And it's like, if you're not friends with these people,
00:37:18
Speaker
Is your quality of life lower? You know, it's something like that. But so along these lines, let's talk about that. How do you guys navigate, I guess, being friends with the people that you may potentially have to let go, right?
Friendship Management as a Supervisor
00:37:31
Speaker
You may potentially have a conflict with, or you may potentially like, like at the end of the day and everybody's having drinks out at the tailgate of one of the trucks in the hotel room parking lot.
00:37:40
Speaker
Do you go out and have those drinks? Do you go out and choke around and have fun with them? And then the next day you've got to be like, hey, get your shit together. You know, you're doing this. Can you do that? Can you separate those two activities in your brain? You know what I mean? Who wants to go first? Yeah. I mean, yes, I can. And I definitely think that
00:37:59
Speaker
I mean, we've talked about it before, you have to manage what you're doing and manage the intensity or the depth or the level of connection, right? So hanging out at the tailgate, the day's over, we're unloading the truck, everyone's off, everyone's talking around, you know, that's one situation.
00:38:17
Speaker
to have to go inside, take a shower, fully get ready, and then go out to someone's birthday party or it's time for us all to go to the same restaurant together. Sometimes that seems like it's a bit too much, depending on what the crew is and how you're feeling that day or whether you have dinner in your own room or how much you want to be around them additionally. But I've always been of the opinion that there's a couple of folks
00:38:40
Speaker
if I'm friends with and they're on the project, yeah, sure, we will hang out. We will go to the restaurant together. We'll hang out in the lobby and have a drink or two. And if some other person at work that I don't dislike shows up and hangs out, then cool for them too. All right, I get to know this other person a little bit better.
00:38:59
Speaker
you know, right on, they're hanging out with me, but I don't ever go out of my way to do the, you know, work life, culture, team building activity things and stuff like that. It doesn't seem like it's a problem for me. It can be a problem if we're going the full distance and partying really hard and then the next day someone's dragging and you know it's because they were hanging out with you and you've got to tell them to get on it.
00:39:22
Speaker
And then they give you some pushback because they're your friend. My advice is don't go that far. Like don't let the previous night's activities hinder what you're doing during the day because then you're in an uncomfortable position where someone's arguing, but also just their health, right? You went so far that now their health is suffering the next day. Don't go that far. So it shouldn't really ever be that problem. Now, if it came down to actually having to lay someone off or fire them,
00:39:46
Speaker
It would have to be because of the math and the numbers and everything. It would have to be an actual true reason their behavior was truly bad enough that they need to be let go because I wouldn't just do this whole thing of, you know, you got to lay three people off. So go through and, you know, pick out who's going to get laid off and who's not. I would say, no, you're the manager. You tell me who exactly I'm supposed to tell let go. And if it's someone who's busting their hump and doing well, I'm going to advocate for that person and push against laying them off.
00:40:14
Speaker
If they've done something illegal or caused huge problems on the crew and you got to let them go and they're your buddy, they screwed up, man. They lost the job because they screwed up. So it shouldn't be that big of a deal for me and my own personality to let someone go. They can't work there anymore because they caused a problem.
00:40:30
Speaker
Yeah, I would just really agree with what you're saying, Bill. I think, you know, in terms of friendship and all that kind of stuff, there is a professional background to all this. Again, how hard is it to be a professional and be an adult? I mean, the answer is sometimes it is hard. And I did have a time once years ago where I did have to fire someone like a real one.
00:40:50
Speaker
You know, and it was difficult, but I had to put my science brain on and look at the data and the data said, you need to fire this person, you know, and we gave them chances and I kind of took them aside once or twice. And I was like, hey, man,
00:41:10
Speaker
You got to do this, this and this by this date. If you don't, I'm telling you as a friend that this is going down and they just did not do it. So I had to drop the ax, you know, and I'm telling you when you're in that position, no matter how much the data is behind you, no matter how friendly you are with the person or whatever, man, the position sucks no matter what. But again, I had to be a professional that day. And what I will also say is I saw
00:41:39
Speaker
Several people who weren't professionals on that day who like wouldn't take the final step because they were friendly with that person or whatever you know and i had to. I had to take the reins thinking back i'm proud of myself for doing that but it was it was difficult but it was the right thing to do the friendship survive that.
00:42:00
Speaker
No, but it wasn't a close friendship. I'll tell you that much. You know what I mean? I think if it was just sort of a friendly work relationship, but friendly enough where I appreciated this person, you know, that kind of thing. If it was a close friendship, it might, you know, depending again, if you're just an honest person and you tell them what's going down, they might actually realize, you know, like, oh my God, yeah, I really didn't tow my own weight.
00:42:29
Speaker
I've had that situation. I wouldn't call the person a really true friend. I've been in situations where I've seen people lose their job and I've been a part of that or I've had to actually exercise it myself.
00:42:44
Speaker
It is even whether I like the person, I don't like the person, I lose sleep over it. It is the worst thing to be involved in because you're taking this person's livelihood. I'm a really empathetic person and so I'm constantly putting myself in that other person's shoes and it's so painful. It's hard to do whether you like the person or you don't. In fact, I would say it's just as hard for me because I remove myself and I have had to let people go.
00:43:13
Speaker
I struggle with it. It's so difficult, but I've had situations where I've let people go and as long as you're fair and you tell them, you should never let somebody go without giving them a chance. That's just cruel. Unless they do something that's just unconscionable, that's different. But there's very few things that would call for immediate firing.
00:43:38
Speaker
I've had people that I've let go that I am friends with. And because they knew that I set it up, to be fair, I gave them every chance. And they understand now. And you know what? Maybe they were...
00:43:51
Speaker
not happy with me at the time, but now we ran into each other again and they're like cool with it because they know that they've grown up a bit and they realize that I did everything I could to prevent that from happening and it just because of their own actions just had to happen. So I think that, you know, a really good idea, I'm just hearing everybody talk about this and I think that being really intentional
00:44:20
Speaker
with understanding what do you consider a friendship? Because we throw that word around friendship. Like I would say that if I go on a project, and I don't do this anymore, but back in the beginning of my career, and you're on a project for weeks, or a month, or a couple months, and you forge this very friendly acquaintance over time, because it's hard not to do that when you're with people 24 seven, right? Or you're with them,
00:44:47
Speaker
very long days, then you have some drinks afterwards or you have dinner together. I mean, some people like to eat dinner by themselves. I don't. I like to have people around me. I love meeting new people. I love exposing myself to different kinds of cultures or whatever. Cultures meaning they live in Virginia and I live in California. I think that understanding that that is different friendship.
00:45:11
Speaker
is important. So if people are, if you're saying, you know, let's, let's shy away. If somebody says that I'm going to shy away from a friendship, well, it's a different difference. And I remember my grandfather would always talk about there's a difference in life between a friendly acquaintance and a true friend, a friend that you would take the shirt off your back for that person. You would put yourself on the line for that person.
00:45:36
Speaker
Not that you wouldn't do that if you feel that a situation is wrong and you wouldn't do that for a friendly acquaintance because you know that in your heart and principle wise, that's wrong what's happening to that person. But there's other situations where sometimes
00:45:51
Speaker
You wouldn't necessarily have to do that. It's not hurting your, you know, it's not going against your principles, but this person is a true friend and you're going to step up for them. There's a difference. And I think understanding that before you get into the emotional situation and understanding what is the difference between a friendly acquaintance and a true, true friend, it is important to drawing your lines at work.
00:46:15
Speaker
The one thing I think when it comes to letting people go though that's really tragic is when someone at some remote office somewhere starts to add up the budget and they realize that they're going to go over budget and so then there's a call or an email that says three people have to go on Tuesday, pick who they are. That's where I'm just kind of like, no, whoever the person was that added up this budget
00:46:38
Speaker
you know, back at the home office and whatever, they're the ones who needs to go through and figure out who were the three people, not me. Don't put that on me because then it turns into a situation where, you know, your own personal emotions and connection to individuals could protect some folks or could actually, like you said, take someone's livelihood away just because they'd like to eat in their hotel room and you just didn't really know who they were. So that's where I just say, no, no, you go through and choose the three people that you want to
00:47:06
Speaker
get rid of and then we'll talk about that. But don't put me on the stand like that and force me to make the decision for someone who just obviously doesn't know how to do arithmetic and that's the reason why we're in this situation right now anyway.
00:47:36
Speaker
I guess you said if you have, and then how you've done it, do you calculate sort of friendships inside your calculus of work? So like, have any of you guys stayed at a job longer because you've been friends with the people, even though it can, on paper, you get paid for going somewhere else.
Friendships Influencing Career Decisions
00:47:56
Speaker
I guess it comes down to that, like, you know, how much are you willing to pay for your friendships? And then also, I'm pretty sure all of us have moved
00:48:06
Speaker
across the country or across States, except I don't know, Andrew, uh, I feel like you've always been in California, but I could be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure everyone right. Cause I'm awesome. Oh, it's a surfing man. You can't leave the beach. Yeah. But so, but it's that general question. It's like, have you guys, I know we've all moved away from friends and family, but have that, has that affected where you've moved or, you know, gone to different jobs?
00:48:33
Speaker
I can answer quickly. The answer is totally in terms of jobs and stuff. I'll stay way longer if I have friends there and it's a great environment. Absolutely. Nope. I'm a free agent.
00:48:45
Speaker
Money, money is definitely up to very, very high on the reasoning behind it and benefits and how it's going to benefit my family. So, you know, I have a family to take care of, but even before I was always weighing, well, someplace may pay me more money, but they're not going to give me benefits or their benefits suck. You know, those always went into the determination. And then yeah, Regent at this point in my career does matter a lot. Earlier on, I was willing to go from here to there to everywhere else, but there's certain parts of the United States that I just don't really enjoy being.
00:49:14
Speaker
and I don't want to work there and I don't see myself living there. And so I will stay in a job that's, you know, possibly less good for me if it's in a better part of the country. But once again, I'm not afraid to move from here to there for money, man. Just like a true Viking.
00:49:32
Speaker
go and take, right? Go and take the money when you have it and then when they run out, it's time for you to move on to the next thing. Or when you think you can get more somewhere else, like why would, no, I've never been in a situation where I would just take less money in a, in less, you know, situation because I want to hang out with my friends more.
00:49:50
Speaker
I said in our chat, yes, as soon as Doug asked that question, because I know, I mean, it's fresh. I've had multiple offers and I've stayed where I'm at because I really feel that I'm doing something important that benefits people and I have a loyalty to
00:50:10
Speaker
the people I work with and my team, and it has gone through my head. Like if I leave, what will happen to the individual people on the team, right? And I feel that responsibility because each one is relying on that team and on what we do to put food in the mouths of their families. But I totally respect what Bill says because you know what? Your family does come first. Yeah.
00:50:37
Speaker
And, you know, there are some times that probably I have made decisions that were not beneficial to my family as much because I've gone through stress at a certain, you know, in a certain job because it last stayed there longer because of that
00:50:55
Speaker
personal of my desire to do what's right for my team. And it has hurt me personally and made it much more stressful. And I'm under a lot of stress which affects my family. And so that's probably not been the best decision in some cases. But I have said no to very good offers.
00:51:17
Speaker
because of my loyalty to my team. Now, there was once I didn't and then my company countered and I stayed. But it's difficult. And I'm not going to say that I've always made the right decisions. Just being honest, I have stayed at a job longer because of the relationships and my loyalty to the people I work with.
00:51:47
Speaker
Well, I think there is a lot to be said about loyalty and how you build that actually as an employer. You know what I mean? Because you
00:51:54
Speaker
You don't directly employ people, Heather, but you're in charge of hiring people and influencing those decisions, but you're not writing the paychecks. But that doesn't functionally really matter, to be honest. You're the one responsible for making their life something they want to continue with that company, right? The company's partially responsible with benefits and stuff, but it largely comes down to the work ethic that you show and the
00:52:18
Speaker
how projects are run and things like that, which is a testament to your leadership skills and abilities.
Building Team Dynamics through Friendship
00:52:25
Speaker
That's one thing that I really try to work on as well all the time when I've led projects that had people involved for my own company.
00:52:33
Speaker
I'm a small company, so I haven't always had employees. But when I do have employees, I almost always try to do, at the very least, some sort of crew event every session, however long the session is. We'll do a crew dinner, paid for by the company. We'll do a cookout or something like that if we're out in the middle of nowhere, and there's no place to go get dinner.
00:52:51
Speaker
stuff like that. But I try to do those things because I try to build those friendships. I want the people to like each other. I want them to get to know each other outside of walking a transect or talking in the truck or something like that. I want those friendships and relationships to be made. And even if those friendships dissolve at the end of the project, that's okay.
00:53:11
Speaker
But if you know each other a little better and you're getting along a little better, it's just like some of the online stuff we're talking about. It's easy to rail against somebody you don't know with your fingers on a keyboard. But if you know them and you understand their situation and their own personal histories and where they're coming from, it's much more difficult to
00:53:28
Speaker
Be angry. Take things the wrong way. Just be angry at them. Yeah, right. And then that's just a general philosophy for life, to be honest with you. You travel more, you meet more people, you become more tolerant. And that's just how it goes. So I feel like it's the same way with crews and companies and teams of people that work together.
Engage with the Podcast Community
00:53:48
Speaker
All right, well, we've gone way over on this segment. There's a lot more we could talk about. We'll continue this conversation on our Slack channel. If you're not a member, go over to arcpodnet.com forward slash members. You can join in and become a member and keep talking about this stuff with the hosts and with other members. And it's really fun. And you can also comment wherever you found this. Don't do it like in an iTunes review or something like that. I've seen that. We can't respond to those.
00:54:12
Speaker
But if you see us on social media or even on the webpage, you can actually go to the webpage on arkpodnet.com for this episode and comment there. Not too many people use that feature and I wish they did more. So anyway, with that, we will take a break and our next episode, if we can get our crap together, we may not talk about this at all, but I just want to point out that our next episode
00:54:34
Speaker
is after, and this one is before, our 10-year anniversary of doing this podcast. It's actually February 12th or something like that of 2012, or 2013, sorry. This episode is before the anniversary. The next episode is after the anniversary. I just wanted to point that out in case we don't talk about that on the next episode. Thanks for 10 years with a couple of you on this podcast, Bill and Doug, that have been here since the beginning. Thanks, Andrew and Heather, for
00:55:00
Speaker
you know, coming into this crazy train, even, you know, knowing what we were about and still sticking around. It's true friends. My professional career has been destroyed, but it was maybe worth it. It was worth it. You always have surfing. It's all right. That's right. That's right. So all right. Well, that we will see you guys next time on the other side of 10 to start another 10 years. We'll see you next week.
00:55:29
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.arcpodnet.com slash CRMARC Podcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at arcpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions.
00:55:59
Speaker
We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere, and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks to everyone for joining me this week. Thanks also to the listeners for tuning in, and we'll see you in the field. Goodbye. Goodbye. Bye, everyone.
00:56:12
Speaker
Bros, this podcast is cool and all, but later, serp's up. I'm about to end it. Oh, Doug is just not going to say goodbye. OK. He's going to make me do 10 more years of episodes is what's going to happen. That's right. That's right. All right. Well, I'm going to end it. Doug is choosing to abstain from this goodbye. So I'll say goodbye for him. Goodbye. Goodbye, Doug.
00:56:46
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster and Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.