Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
BS at the beginning, BS at the end. How to Recognize IT before it's too late - Ep 303
168 Plays8 days ago
When a project or relationship starts poorly, it usually ends poorly. The panelist discuss how to recognize problems early in projects, relationships, and more.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/303
Blogs and Resources:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Chris Webster: DIGTECH LLC
- Andrew Kinkella
Kinkella Teaches Archaeology (Youtube)
Blog: Kinkella Teaches Archaeology
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/archaeology-podcast-network?ref_id=5724
Affiliates
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to CRM Archaeology Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello
Geography of California: A Debate
00:00:23
Speaker
and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast, episode 303. I'm your host, Heather McDaniel McDevitt, and joining me today is Bill in Northern
00:00:44
Speaker
Everyone kind of kills me every time you guys say like bill in like Northern California it's like back the middle all this stuff Okay, I won't comment on this anymore every time Yeah, I don't I don't know California's geography either I'm just like yeah i lived graph geographically, it's pretty close to the middle, but okay. yeah but it's it's all It's all oriented around LA here. So if it's north of all LA, it's northern, cal if it's south of LA, it's southern California. but i get I don't know. I don't think that where I live should be southern California. That doesn't make any sense. That's the central coast.
00:01:24
Speaker
Right. It is, though, because it's like you said, it is it is in the furthest reach of Southern California, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? It's in the furthest reach of L.A. But but they have their own ge geography around here. yeah I don't get it. I don't know. If Bill is Northern California yeah and you're Southern California, I'm Central. But you're only like an hour away from me.
00:01:47
Speaker
See, yeah see, and I would also argue that all the like stars who work in Hollywood, all the really rich ones, they live up where you are, you know, so they still are in shooting distance to LA. But see, whatever I say matters more than the rest of you because I grew up in Northern California and now live in Southern California. So I've done all of it.
00:02:07
Speaker
So you're talking about the part north of San Francisco, which is pretty much like the wall from Game of Thrones. Exactly it is. No, I'm not talking about that part. Nobody lives there. Oh, yeah. No, that's just a note. That's just like Terra incognita. That's what it says on the map. I think it's called Oregon. Yeah, and whatever. It's all the same. Yeah. So no, I'm from the East Bay. I'm from I'm basically from where you're at, Bill.
00:02:31
Speaker
You know, so like, well, it's a good place to live. It is. It is a place to grow up. I think it's fair to call it Northern California. All right. All right. I'm not from here. Oh, I'm just going to either or not either. I just know where I live. My address. That's it.
Identifying Project Issues Early
00:02:47
Speaker
For our listeners, this episode's topic is geography of California. California geography. yeah the The Central Coast, does it exist? before we Before we introduce the topic of today's episode, I just want to say that thanks to my father, who's here with me, he is going to be providing the laugh track. So if you hear of, you know, Joe Viel, Santa, see that right there, and Joe Viel, Santa barbara san Santa Claus laugh. That's my dad, Harlan McDaniel, in the background. So hello, dad. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. All right. So today's episode is, I titled it, Here Comes Trouble, How to Recognize It Before It's Too Late. But Doug, who came up with the topic, has a much more interesting title. So don't take it away. Yes.
00:03:42
Speaker
So I guess we we should put a PG rating on this but episode. Like if you're not into strong language, this is not the episode for you, but originally it's not the job for you either. But
Digital Transformation Challenges
00:03:54
Speaker
anyway,
00:03:54
Speaker
yeah six the original title was bullshit at the beginning, bullshit at the end. And this episode is about like recognizing whether it be, I don't know, CRM projects, a partnership, a, you know,
00:04:12
Speaker
you're co-authoring a paper, you have students, whatever it is, sort of recognize when, you know, whatever your project is, is not going to go well at how to get out, at how to get out earlier. Because, you know, it's not always true. but It's pretty often true. If it starts out with bullshit, it's going to end in bullshit.
00:04:35
Speaker
So green I'm just going to throw this out and this is coming about from experience I'm having right now. So it's actually outside of archaeology. So you guys don't need to like try sleuthing around to see what organization this is in archaeology. It's totally outside of archaeology. I'm helping manage a what they're calling a digital transformation project. ah But really, it's about we're doing a website and a CRM, customer relationship management database. So if you haven't heard of that, it's not CRM as in cultural resource management, it's CRM as in customer relationship management.
00:05:11
Speaker
and That's basically the idea of you know a lot of CRM companies, as in archeology companies or cultural-based ones, will have a CRM, customer relationship management database, which is basically a way of tracking like, these have been our clients in the past, these are where we're getting in new clients, these are our contacts, here's all the specialists we have on lists for pottery analysis, you know whatever it is. it's basically ah a little bit more advanced Rolodex that allows you to track and you know potentially how advanced you get with it, do some really interesting things that can really help your business out. But have this project but went through a very extensive process of finding you know a provider sent out like
00:06:02
Speaker
Fifteen ah requests for proposals from people, got back 13, 12, went through the whole process, did a bunch of interviews. I was somewhat lukewarm on them, but for other reasons on their their proposal.
00:06:21
Speaker
We had a really tight deadline, so we needed to have like and MVP, which is a minimum viable product, ready to go by January. That was always on our call for proposals. It was very clear what that date was, what we needed.
Contract Disputes and Delays
00:06:36
Speaker
you know Contracts took about an extra four weeks than we were expecting. so Actually, we ended up sliding that back to the end of January, beginning of February. part Project gets started. and like The day after we signed the contract, it was just one of those things where you're like, oh, no, this is not going to go well. Obviously, we signed this contract, to well, sorry, not obviously, because no one actually knows this, but we signed the contract at the beginning of October. so yeah Roughly three months, and then you have Christmas, which you this is being a UK project, you actually you two weeks out where no one does any work as opposed to America, where it's like,
00:07:17
Speaker
Half a day, maybe people take off if you're lucky. And so, you know, very tight timeline and basically it's gone. They're like, oh yeah, yeah, we should have the, uh, the kickoff meeting. And they're like October 29th. And I'm like, wait, what? You know, three weeks after we signed the contract and we've been talking about like basically starting the project right off the bat. And it's it's just been a comedy of errors that.
00:07:50
Speaker
makes this sort of question. We've physically met some of these people in person. We've met a bunch of people online. They are like a well-known company. They've been around for yeah years. and so like We know it's not like a new Nigerian print scam.
00:08:07
Speaker
But man, at times, it feels like it. and It's just been a comedy of errors. We've gone through a process out in the contract about you know um dispute resolution. and We've gone like, you senior managers went up to their chief operating officer. They made promises on delivery. and then like
00:08:29
Speaker
449 on the day they were meant to be delivering stuff. We get an email being like, yeah, it's not happening guys. Maybe sometime this week followed by like they delivered a plan on the Friday and then like Tuesday morning, we get an email being like, yeah, so we gave you a plan and we're not going to stand by it. In fact, we're not going to do it at all. We're pushing the date back to like June of next year.
00:08:55
Speaker
It's got bizarre. We've gone up to the next level, which is like the CEOs. We had CEO to CEO meeting. Again, promises were
Project Management Pitfalls
00:09:05
Speaker
made. We were supposed to have a new plan delivered to us this last Friday. And then it just got really weird where they refused to deliver us the plan.
00:09:18
Speaker
because an email I had sent was too long and they wanted me to recall it. And if you guys are thinking like, what the hell? That makes no sense. Yeah. join club If they had said that Doug's monologue, your monologue was too long, then maybe I'd understand it. I would too. I immediately. email the Yeah. So, but like, I know, I know it's fair game guys fair game. But like it was like at the beginning of the process, like as soon as it started going south, my wife's just like, yeah, you guys should leave it. And she had this phrase, she's just like, you know, if it's bullshit at the beginning, it's going to be bullshit at the end. And like, I would also add like, it's going to be bullshit in between as well. Cause that's all it has been. But we couldn't cause we have to like go through contractual
00:10:12
Speaker
issues where we have to actually prove that we weren't ending the project early and that we've done everything possible. But that's inspiration for this episode is like, yeah, guys, you know, where have you seen projects where they, I say projects in a broader sense and we can open this up. Maybe it's like relationships with other people where you're like, it just starts bad and you know it's going to end bad as well. And how do you guys deal with that? And how do you get out of it? Well, I don't know if any of you guys know them, but Talk about relationships. It's my first, my first archeology professor. They really didn't.
00:10:51
Speaker
but
00:10:54
Speaker
For the students who don't know, that's Andrew. yeah No, it's fine. oh It's fine. I understand. I knew it. I knew it when I heard Doug talk about this. I'm like, man, Heather's going to talk about me. Oh my God. Oh my God.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, no you know, I would say, though, Doug, I feel your pain, dude. I think everyone listening to this is like, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man. Like, as you were talking, I was literally thinking, I'm like, why do I even do this podcast? Because it just brings me down. You know, it makes me think of like these awful moments. I will say that they a lot of times I've gone into these things and I can think of like five things off the top of my head. Right. Whether it's a CRM job, whether it's something in academia, whether it's some sort of professional relationship.
00:11:38
Speaker
where I tend to go in with like this stupid hope and it makes me like narrow minded. You know, I don't notice the warning signs. I'm like, oh, we'll get together. We'll do this project. This is going to be great. This will really work.
00:11:55
Speaker
Right. And I need I've gotten better as I've gotten older. But I think for all of us, we need to have that radar out from the very beginning. Don't go in with rose colored glasses. Don't think of things as just understood. You know, oh, this will be great because like this will happen. Then this will happen and it'll be great. It's like now you're operating on false pretense. And sometimes, Doug, I think this is your case. The other side is operating like not in good faith, you know? Because once it once things start to break down, when it goes into the land of the weird, like yours with the like, Oh, well, your email's too long. They're obviously just not taking responsibility. They refuse to, and they're just, they will blame it all on you, right? That's where it's going to go. But I think
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, we can complain later about all our our top hits of like this happened to me. Wasn't it terrible?
The Importance of Clear Proposals
00:12:54
Speaker
But I just wanted to start by we all I think have to realize that like we don't want to go in just with blinders on thinking this is going to be a great project. but think logically and it's good to get things in writing or at very least have a very solid conversation yeah when it comes to things like pay or this kind of stuff. Like I've had times in CRM where I've been totally screwed out of money because I was too weak to just talk you know to somebody and get it either in writing or have a serious conversation where it's like, how much am I making? And I didn't do it and I got screwed.
00:13:32
Speaker
I would say every experience that I have has built the assumptions in all my proposals. so as you know as as i've progressed in my career i've collected assumptions and this is where you know just like you're saying you have to have that agreement the contract has got to be solid the understanding between the client and the provider has got to be solid and two yeah i'm not saying that this is the case with your situation doug but um
00:14:04
Speaker
I think that it's it's important to understand that your client doesn't always understand the service that you provide. And so you have to have very clear direction in your proposal, and it's got to be written in layman's terms. And so for me, I'm a huge believer in assumptions because you just can't assume that they know how long it takes to do whatever task. And so you have to put in like specific hours, unless you're doing you know what they call a lump sum proposal, which means you say that this task will be completed for this amount of money, period. But most of the time in archaeology, and we're not going to go into proposals, but I do think that this is one way of avoiding trouble,
00:14:50
Speaker
In archaeology, it's very hard to anticipate what it is that you're going to encounter in the field. And so making sure that you have assumptions in there that plainly state what is covered. you You are estimating it's going to take this many hours to do this. And what are the situations that could cause those hours to go to increase? And you put that in there. If this happens, like right now, we just did ah A paleo proposal and one of the assumption was if this silt. Was thicker but that could totally change how much time it takes to it screen right and so putting in some language in there to say specifically if it can't go through this number see see there is a potential that the hours would increase and you'd have to give an amendment. You have to have all that the proposal is your key.
00:15:45
Speaker
To at least avoiding the first stages of trouble in a project now that doesn't account for issues with people and personalities and sometimes clients that just. Are trouble from the beginning it doesn't matter how rock solid your proposal is they're going to try and i've in fact i'm doing somebody right now like that.
00:16:05
Speaker
Their job is they think is to minimize their costs, even if it's unfair to you as the provider. So I think let's take this to the next segment. We can talk a little bit more about the
Work-Life Balance in Academia
00:16:18
Speaker
details from other perspectives from Bill and Andrew and myself. We'll be right back.
00:16:24
Speaker
Welcome back to CRM archaeology podcast episode 303 segment two. We're talking about how do you recognize trouble before it's too late and how do you react to it? We just talked. Doug shared an experience with us from more of a know ah ah business side. And now let's get into Andrew and Bill at and Doug. Let's get into the the academic side. How do you recognize troubled students, troubled classes, troubled professors? Yeah. I can't wait to hear what Andrew has to say about this. But I mean, I guess I can i guess i can kind of talk about professors. You know, a couple of things to think about is like,
00:17:10
Speaker
you know, some people, academia is like their entire form of existence. They actually have no level of reality besides just the university. And so they are willing to, you know, flush all of their life down the tube just in service of academia.
00:17:29
Speaker
and and those people can be super problematic because they don't seem to understand that things like families or hobbies or like anything besides this exists and and they can cause a lot of problems ah for people who want to have an actual life outside of the job because they don't get it, right? So a lot of times these people end up moving up far because the system needs people who will give their entire soul to the organization in order for it to keep going in the form of service and committees and a whole bunch of other stuff. And so a lot of times these people who have like
00:18:04
Speaker
foregone having any kind of activity, foregone having any form of rest or rejuvenation. They don't have a family or anything like that. They end up becoming like the dean or the you know chancellor or the leaders of the organization, and they don't understand why you would want to hesitate at all of doing unlimited service because you know the stuff is it can be really ah backbreaking the amount of hours they want you to put into this.
00:18:30
Speaker
So a lot of times, you know, one of the ways that you can spot that kind of problem is like, look at what someone has done in their, you know, like how they got to be where they're at, and whether they have any form of reality, grasp of reality, like outside,
Signs of Toxic Academic Environments
00:18:46
Speaker
right? So, you know, one example is, do they have trillions of papers, tons of grants, an enormous lab with tons of, you know, PhDs and postdocs and all of that stuff? You can't get that without putting in you know ten to twelve hours a day seven days a week of work cuz you know you just can't manage it you don't have a assistant manager or a director or anyone else who's like working with you if you're a professor so if they have all that stuff that's the kind of person who is really putting their entire life into this entire organization and so they will expect you to do the same and to me that's one of the biggest signs like success in academia means
00:19:25
Speaker
ah I guess, you know, toxic overwork. And that's one of the signs like if you're asked to be on a group with someone like that, they don't understand that you would ever want to like see your daughter's gymnastics, or that you would ever want to go fishing, you know, any of those kind of things. Andrew, what what are other signs that you can see in academia of whether this is going to be bad news or not?
00:19:46
Speaker
Oh, man. there's There's just so much. I at first just everything you said, you know, I had to turn my mic off because I was laughing. So it was be like too much laughing over what you were saying. And and because it's just like, oh, my God, you're talking about my life. And, you know, I think those signs are correct. Totally.
00:20:06
Speaker
On the flip side, I think once you once you see those signs, and I think those are some of the the biggest ones. If you're like a young grad student or something, realize you don't need to work with that person. Right. So even if you're like a Mayanist and that one person is the Mayanist at your school, you don't need to actually have that person necessarily. So I would just sort of double down on what Bill says. First off, like, beware those signs. Look, at look at their life. I used to always do this.
00:20:35
Speaker
look at their life do you want their life and not all not all professors are like that you know what i mean not all professors are like just like married to their lab other ones have marriages to actual people and kids and stuff you know i remember because actually I worked with somebody at one point who's just like, Bill, like who you're saying, you know, I worked with somebody just like that. And I was like, this is so terrible. This is like so awful for human beings. And it really like, it almost washed me out of archaeology. But then I worked with another guy who was a total family man. He was totally cool. And I was like, Oh my God, archaeology projects can be like this.
00:21:15
Speaker
So a perspective in fact yeah looking back now, how are those two people's lives? years ago right to now I guarantee you, they're probably allowed it as the success story, the greatest in the world. They probably have the most ah grant money. They probably have the most publications. They're probably in multiple different directorships, titles, all this different stuff. like those you're actually run never actually always get adult that have millions of ornaments all over their chest nope
00:21:46
Speaker
you're actually wrong like really yeah the person the the person who' ah yeah that person is still miserable they still work in this world but like they just It, you know, stuff never worked out in a lot of ways. Oh, man. The person who was like the cool family man is like retired. These people, you know, these are a long time ago, but retired, I think, as a happy person, had a successful career in in our. Yes. Oh.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yes, he was. but So, yeah, it's funny, Bill, like the personality type, you say we've obviously come across those 100 times, but their success rate isn't as high as you say, because what happens is everyone else hates him, too. And so and so they tend to not not always like sometimes they'll become department chair or something like that. But sometimes they can't go further because they're oh shitty in in like public speaking. They're two obviously self-centered, weird narcissists, you know and nobody wants to be around them. so i find them not being i find i I do find they can be very successful in terms of research, but not successful in terms of the like hierarchy of university.
00:22:54
Speaker
I want to hear what Doug has to say, but that self-centered narcissist, that's also a massive sign in grad students and students. Yes. Yeah. I was going to do some practical, like, so if anyone's listening here and they're looking at, it was riffing off of something you guys had said. If you're looking for like, you know, to do a PhD or a master's, it depends on, you know, what country and, you know, wherever you might need like a dissertation or thesis advisor.
00:23:22
Speaker
Definitely a lot a lot of web yeah a lot of university pages and department pages now have like every professor up there with a picture and all their grants and all that stuff, they usually also have a list of like their current PhD students, or sometimes even former ones. And like a huge red flag is if you see one with 15 or 20 PhD students that they have on currently. And there is there is no way that
Advisor Overload Risks
00:23:53
Speaker
they're going to be able to give you regular advice
00:23:57
Speaker
or regular support yeah throughout your PhD and master's. and sometimes you know that's not what You might have everything already set up and you don't really need that, but there'll be paperwork things where you need to sign off something and you won't be able to get ahold of them for like three months. yeah and you know You might be on a visa and you're like, um I might get deported. if it like Not my story, but it has happened to other people I know who basically couldn't get the right signatures were like days away from getting deported and freaking out and having a ah mental breakdown. And then like the their supervisor was like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, they're here. and like It was nothing after they like basically almost destroyed this person's life. yeah So that's that's like a ah red flag just to be aware of.
00:24:49
Speaker
there will be paperwork that you're going to need to do and you're going to need signatures. If you need that on time, don't have the person that has like 15 or 20 PhDs. They're not going to have the the way that they'll ever have enough time for you.
00:25:03
Speaker
yeah I 100% agree with you. And I'll just from my experience and from others, I think, you know, sometimes you have somebody who has a lot of students and it's, it could be the negative side that you guys were explaining. It could also be that they just don't know how to say no. I know somebody like that. They're actually a very nice person, but they just don't know how to say no. They don't know how to manage the time.
00:25:28
Speaker
For me, I'm so glad somebody gave me some really good advice. I actually think it was you, Andrew. Of course. To pick um my chair for my committee wasn't even specifically able to help me yeah on my thesis subject, but she was very organized and very bold and kept everybody on track. And so that allowed me to have a champion behind me that was going to help me keep
00:26:00
Speaker
Moving forward, because I had a certain amount of time that I wanted to get it done and I wasn't going to let. People tell me, oh, well, you know, it's it's you know sometimes it'll take you an extra year. I didn't have time. It was a single mom. but And I had to get a job and I had to get this degree. So I.
00:26:19
Speaker
You know, if you're looking to make a commit a committee, it's a combination behind. The academics that could do something for you on this specific subject matter that's going to be helpful with you progressing your, your dissertation, and your thesis, but you also have to.
00:26:37
Speaker
select people for personality and for somebody that's actually going to champion you and can get you through that process because that's actually probably one of the most difficult parts of finishing up is is actually ah finishing and yeah and having everything.
00:26:52
Speaker
yeah so yeah Yeah, I think I remember that. I will say I am like the advisor whisperer, man. So like I remember talking about that. And it is about that. I use words a lot when I talk about that, like cheerleader. You need a cheerleader. You need somebody who's going to you know cheerlead for you. You need somebody who sees the world the same as you. You know, so like, yeah, no, that's that's great. I'm just going to keep you on track. I mean, I can't tell you how many times she's a mother.
00:27:20
Speaker
Keep that for the book that you write someday. Yes. Well, yeah, but like, on you know, on the other hand, too, though, there's students that can just to drink life like a vampire. they They are all about them. Every single thing is only about them. They have no other thought in the universe besides Just the one minute thing that they're studying for their graduate program. And I'm telling you that is also a super bad sign. If
Narrow Academic Focus Critique
00:27:48
Speaker
you're looking to hire someone, you're looking to hire someone and the only thing they've ever done is just their master's thing. They never did anything else whatsoever. That is bad because that shows first of all, that they were only monolithically concentrated on one thing, but also they never actually learned any skills of anything else.
00:28:05
Speaker
so the only thing they can do is their tiny little thing that they did for their degree and you'll have to teach them every single thing but the worst of all is the one who doesn't realize they don't know anything so the student who went to an ultra school who thinks that they're the finest on the planet because they went to this you know high ranking school and they only focused purely on their only one thing ever and then they show up and they're like, well, I went to the highest school and I've got a PhD. It's like, so what, man? You don't even know how to dig a shovel probe. I mean, I got raked years ago when I wrote a blog post about how field techs have to teach PhDs how to do CRM. There was a lot of people who were like,
00:28:44
Speaker
What are you talking about? Like, yeah, but PhDs, they know this higher learning. I'm like, bullshit, sorry. They don't, because they don't actually learn or think when they think that they know everything already. So that's another monumental problem. If you're an instructor, if you are another graduate student, and you're working with someone who ever says the thing, well, I do, and then they talk about their tiny thing I do Etruscan burials, it's like, oh, well, then that means that you actually have typecast yourself to a point where you're not really an archaeologist anymore. You're just a one trick pony specialist. But also by telling yourself that for seven years or five years or however long, you're grinding it into your mind that you cannot do other things because all you do is a truscan burials.
00:29:28
Speaker
and I'm just shaking my head. like You are limiting yourself so greatly. That's the kind of student that you should like stay away from because it's someone who's not willing to learn. Their brain is already so full, they can't learn anything else. ah so What's the use of spending any time? there There is no such thing as mentoring that student because the only thing they want to hear is the things that will help them get the one tiny thing that they're trying to do in their life.
00:29:51
Speaker
So, you know, what's the use, right? Like, that's kind of a spent cause. Why invest any time or effort into someone who thinks they know everything already? Like, just go ahead and let them go out there and be the specialist of Etruscan burials. And sorry if there is someone listening who is a specialist in Etruscan.
00:30:09
Speaker
Do you need to learn a shovel probe and you need to learn how to use something besides just your phone to navigate? I had a student, I had a student just like that dude, who like, who, who assured me they knew how to, they assured me they knew how to run a transit. And I was like, ah okay. And we ended up wasting two weeks of work on incorrect transit points. Cause this Rick and fool wouldn't admit that they didn't know how to run a transit. See, I still. Why am I part of this podcast? I was going to say, as far as I am along, I never I always go in like listening because you never know. First of all, you want to know how much the other person who's teaching you knows, right? That was I always wanted to know how much my teachers knew. But then on the other hand,
00:30:55
Speaker
Like, you want to learn the thing that you don't know yet that they're that they can tell you, right? So always go in as a learner, as a beginner with everything. That kind of person is always going to grow. And they're also able to help in a lot of different ways. And they'll be better off in the long run because they've spent their life learning rather than thinking that they were the expert in anything. Yep. Well, that is a good but place to stop this segment. And we'll be right back with our third segment.
00:31:25
Speaker
Oh, welcome back to our third segment of CRM archaeology podcast episode 303. That transition was like the smoothest transition ever. There's a little story behind that for our listeners. Chris basically threatened us because our last podcast went so long. So he's beaten it and into us. We need to, you know, control ourselves, I guess. So anyway, Doug, you have something to add about committees.
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah, well, I was just thinking about like what the last thing Bill and Andrew were talking about, and then just the the people who like take on too much. Actually, I think, Heather, you talked about that as well, the very nice person who ends up taking on too much if they can't say no. I was actually thinking about some experiences that I've had with projects and committees where If you start to end up on committees and that can be committees at like a university or it could be like your professional societies or your local societies, your state ones, you're bound to in your career at some point end up on a committee somewhere. It could even be in your employer and you start to sort of like recognize certain people.
00:32:39
Speaker
in these committees and the certain ones are like the sort of early career person who basically is going out trying to network, which in itself is not too bad, but they also join like want to do different committees on like every single organization they could possibly do, stretch themselves too thin, and then end up flaking out and gaining sort of a bad reputation because basically they did too much and then no one can rely on them. But you also see this sort of like, again with some like
00:33:14
Speaker
senior people as well who can't say no.
Inefficiencies in Committees
00:33:18
Speaker
I'll keep this incredibly vague, but yeah, there was a sort of a project overview committee for a project I worked on. And the head person was also on like a lot of other committees, both in that organization at the state level, you know, they plus a job, a very demanding job.
00:33:40
Speaker
Basically, the project, we ended up going like we blew past the deadline by over a year because we had submitted a draft and they just never had any time to review it. and so yeah it's It's recognizing when that's going to happen and thinking, yeah again, it's looking at those people and just looking at you know ah even asking those sort of like friendly questions like, oh, hey hey, Charles, how many committees are you on? Other committees are you on? you know Just vaguely getting that out and then making plans about like you know if this person's
00:34:19
Speaker
going to be too busy. Make sure they don't have some sort of critical task that is going to hold everyone else up. Make sure that you wherever they assign a task, it's you have a backup for someone else who can also do it, or you know there's someone else that you could go to to get a sign off on something. Because yeah, that happens a lot. is you You get people who are just overextended, and they're not bad people, but they don't They don't have the ability to commit to everything and they're going to flake on yeah yeah you. Yeah. That's also you know folks out there. be
00:34:55
Speaker
There's a ton of work that needs to be done in archaeology, but I think that committee a lot of times is like the absolute least efficient and worthwhile way to get it done. I
Committees vs Task-Oriented Groups
00:35:04
Speaker
think that having like a task-oriented ad hoc group or you know I guess it's called a committee, but you have you know nine months to do the task of write an easing or you know create an advertisement or you know do a survey that it's just one task and then it dispands immediately in nine months when the thing is over like that's the only way that you can actually get stuff done is a lot of people especially in academia we get credit for service in quotation marks but sitting around and mulling over stuff for like nine ten months a year and just sitting in standing meetings and just sending you know, emails and G-chat text to each other, like that counts. So just sitting around not actually doing a thing is the service. And be really mindful about how much time you spend. I've also seen it too at like archaeology organizations too. There's somebody on this, their committee on that, right? Like nothing ever actually gets done whatsoever in those committees, but people stay on them for years as the director, the leader, all this other stuff. And they don't even come up with like an email list.
00:36:07
Speaker
It's just like people sitting around at the annual meeting saying they're part of the so-and-so committee and nothing ever happens. So don't spend your time on stuff that doesn't get stuff done unless you just need that for service, then great. But also like Doug was saying, a lot of people are on these do-nothing committees that just spend a lot of times drafting reports that never get published or finaled or you know meandering around doing nothing, but that sucks up the time from the real work.
00:36:31
Speaker
ah Exactly. I was going to say the same thing. The one thing, like if you're trying to make a decision about whether or not to get involved, because you're going to be, I'm a yes. I'm not a yes, but i'm I'm a people pleaser, right? And i somebody offers me, you know, says, hey, we'd love to have you a part of this or that. And it's it's hard because I want to say yes, because I want to say yes to them. But you have to look at the big picture. You have to look at what is your highest and best use.
00:36:58
Speaker
And you really have to look at what are you doing now, but what is the potential of what you could be doing in the future? What are your goals? Those are things that are important for you to understand to actually write down your goals and see are is this.
00:37:12
Speaker
Is this opportunity that somebody's presenting to me in line with my goals? Are they going to help promote the goals that I have at hand? And that's not being selfish. That's just being strategic and making sure that you are, you're at your highest and best use. And a lot of times people end up on a bunty either on purpose or not. They end up on a lot of these types of committees where you want to call them committees or, or action teams or whatever you call them business. And.
Balancing Committee Involvement and Experience
00:37:42
Speaker
The more that you're on these committees, the less you are actually allowing yourself to build practical experience in order to be helpful on these committees. If you only end up being in a position where you're just talking about making things better, you don't know how to actually practically make things better because you are not actually doing the work. And that work is really important to informing a committee informing, not forming, but to give information, data to a committee. If you were not actively working in that area, you're not going to have enough information to really be helpful on a committee and move and progress things forward. So, yeah. So, you know, possible title of this podcast, if ah Chris doesn't take it down is, you know, bullshit at the beginning, bullshit at the end, but I would like to throw out there that like, that's not always the case.
00:38:39
Speaker
I mean, I was on a project that went sideways to start. you know Client was supposed to provide the JCP, backhoe, we were supposed to be there, showed up, nothing was there. It was it was a complete and utter disaster. But then we had a meeting, we sat down and they they they owned up to it. They're like, yeah, you know what? A lot's going on. We dropped the ball. It won't happen again.
00:39:05
Speaker
And you know what? It didn't happen again. I think you do have to make room for like honest mistakes. like Just because something starts off bad doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be bad if it serves honest mistakes. That being said, I think a real red flag is definitely when it starts off and it is on purpose. A couple of years ago, well, actually more than a decade ago, like I worked for ah an art gallery.
00:39:32
Speaker
and Again, it was it was one of those bullshit at the beginning, bullshit at the end. i knew it was I knew they were going to screw me out of my last paycheck.
Dealing with Dishonest Employers
00:39:42
Speaker
I eventually did get paid because you know in the UK, they have a labor board where you can take employers before tribunal and did that stuff so I could threaten them and eventually get them to pay me my last paycheck. But I knew it was going to go wrong, not because of you know they'd done that I'd seen that We'd started bad, but because I'd seen how they treated other people. So like there'd be like artists calling in being like, Oh, why haven't I been paid for you? You sold it like months ago. Why haven't I been paid? And they, they basically make up bullshit excuses.
00:40:17
Speaker
And it was just, it was seeing how they treated other people just knowing that like, that's going to, you know, that was a red flag. It wasn't an an honest mistake. It was something that they were going out to choose. I mean, like eventually I kept sort of like vague track of them. And after a couple of years, they committed a massive fraud, sold the gallery to someone and then left a bunch of debts and took artwork and all that stuff and left for but France had set up their own Airbnb and b and you know criminals. Unfortunately, they didn't have a bad ending to their story, at least yet. But it was just one of those things where you saw it and you knew it was happening. But ive you can kind of see it, you know if you go onto any of the sort of Facebook groups, I think sometimes people don't give enough credit to CRM companies. like Stuff happens. like They'll be like,
00:41:10
Speaker
Oh, I didn't get paid. And you're like, yeah, man, you started on Wednesday and pay was on Friday. That's a really quick turnaround for like a small company to like suddenly do all the paperwork and get it out. But there are other red flags for like, you see it and they're like, oh, you know, we'll reimburse you for all the per diem and your hotel and everything after that, after like three months of the project. And you're like,
00:41:37
Speaker
Ooh, man, that sounds very scammy. And, you know, it just happens. Have you guys got other ones for previous employers or other ones you've seen? You're like, yeah, man, that's not going to be a good working situation. Yeah, I think that, you know, from a CRM perspective, there are some things that, and you'll you'll learn the more that you work in this business, that there are some things that are really hard to control from a business perspective. And,
Managing Unavoidable Project Delays
00:42:08
Speaker
you know, one thing is it's real simple and you'd think that everybody would know it, but when when an employer tells you, okay, we have a project, we're trying to bring you on board so that you can, let's say monitor or do a data recovery and we're shooting for January and January comes along and it doesn't happen.
00:42:27
Speaker
And you know i see a lot I still so see people on Facebook or other social media platforms that are saying you know blaming the company for that. And it it sounds like an empty excuse, but you know I have these conversations with people all the time. It's it's so it's uncomfortable for me, but there are as far as the start of a project, there's a lot that a CRM company cannot control.
00:42:52
Speaker
and You still have to put people in place. And so, you know, from the serum perspective, from the manager's perspective, you have to be open and say, listen, but we're anticipating it starting in January. But you have to allow them and say, listen, if something else comes along, it comes along for you. And you have to just kind of lay it.
00:43:13
Speaker
The hand that's dealt to you, because, you know, 1st of all, I wouldn't expect anybody sitting around waiting because how many projects have we said it's going to start in January. It doesn't end up starting until March and it's completely out of your hands. And meanwhile, this person could have been making money on another project. And so I never, you know, I will always make sure that they understand, you know, if you have something, a bird in the hand, go for it. But, you know, to me. You know, as a worker.
00:43:41
Speaker
Definitely understand there are some areas that are out of the control of the company themselves. And don't you let that taint your idea of that company. And if you're working for a larger company, usually they can put you on another project. And so that's the nice thing of working for a larger company. But small companies, they don't always have that ability to do that.
00:44:01
Speaker
I would just add like in terms of if you're in a bad situation like this, whether you're working for a crappy company or dealing with something like just a really bad situation or even on the flip side, if you have to fire somebody or any of these, I just have to do a little commercial for the simple bullet point list.
00:44:21
Speaker
Uh, don't make it like 10 things, make it like three things. And I really would say to write them down, right? Here's three things that need to happen in order for this person to not be fired. Here's three things that need to happen for me to stay on this project, right? It helps you just organize it in your head and they should be really reasonable. And what you'll find is if you're in a bad situation, almost immediately, like two of those three things won't be done.
00:44:50
Speaker
And then you know then you feel better you're like okay it's okay if i like pull the record on this and get out of here. Oh yeah man like a hundred percent that and also if possible those three things put them in writing.
00:45:05
Speaker
yeah like yeah You'd be amazed how many meetings if things start going south, you've gone in, you agree something, and then like two days later, suddenly what was agreed is no longer agreed and not everyone's on the same page. and God forbid, like you know hopefully, most people are never going to have to go through this. You're going to get out okay. But like you know if you actually have to get and lawyers involved in a bad situation,
00:45:32
Speaker
your lawyer' is going to just love you if you have stuff in writing memorialized every yeah yeah it's in it there's something You know, it it may seem awkward, but I do. I always send an email, you know, thanks so and so appreciate the meeting, just making sure that we're on the same page. This is how I understand, you know, what we discussed today and you have it. And that's not you saying, Hey, by the way, I'm going to cover my button case you pull out. That's you just saying, Hey, I'm giving you notes. Both of us have here are the cliff notes or a discussion and make sure that we have.
00:46:06
Speaker
the same understanding, your help, you know, come from a perspective of you're helping each other, not, I'm trying to make sure I am CYA, right? and If everyone's, if everything's going well, it's almost going to be a race to see who gets that in first. Like, I have that happen. People send it in. You're like, yeah, that's cool. That's exactly what we agreed to. And, you know, it's an understanding of professionalism where you're just making sure everyone's on the same page and the project's going to run smoothly.
00:46:36
Speaker
or the committee is going to rent smoothly, or I don't know, the student is going to get their correct advisement and work on their chapter correctly without going down a rabbit hole and wasting months. you know It just works all the way across. Well, I think that's a good spot to end. I think for those of you that are listening, I think some of the main things are just and making sure that you Have a clear path. Communication is really important to making sure you're staying out of trouble. Communication to yourself, documenting what are your goals, making sure you understand that you understand what is your highest and best use so that you don't just keep, you know, I don't know, like that frog, you know, slowly boiling, right? That you just keep going down a path and you don't realize until you're completely off track, right? So just making sure that you're communicating to yourself and to others and keeping yourself on track and at your highest and best use.
00:47:45
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www dot.arcpodnet dot.com slash CRMARC Podcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at arcpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions. We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks to everyone for joining me this week, Bill and Doug and
00:48:43
Speaker
The Archaeology Podcast Network is 10 years old this year. Our executive producer is Ashley Airy. Our social media coordinator is Matilda Sebrecht. And our chief editor is Rachel Rodin. The Archaeology Podcast Network was co-founded by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle in 2014 and is part of CulturoMedia and DigTech LLC. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.