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Executive Orders and Impact on CRM - Ep 306
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What is the future of CRM in the United States? There is a myriad of reasons why professional archaeologists might be pondering this question. Recently, many are wondering how the Executive Orders newly signed by President Trump will impact both the implementation and business of historic preservation. The CRM podcast hosts are joined by Spencer Pelton of the Substack newsletter Social Stigma and author of some insightful articles about this very subject. This podcast is a must listen for anyone concerned about what these EOs will mean for our profession and interested in a consideration of the facts and potential solutions.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/306
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Transcript
Introduction to CRM Archaeology Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:06
Speaker
This is the CRM Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management, archaeology, and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
Impact of Executive Orders on Cultural Resources
00:00:23
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM Archaeology Podcast, episode 306 for February 2025. I am your host, Heather McDaniel McDevitt. On today's show, we are going to talk about the recent executive orders and the potential impact on CRM. But before we do that, I'd like to welcome everyone to the show, starting with Andrew in Southern California.
00:00:50
Speaker
Hey guys, how's it going? And Doug in Scotland. Hey everyone. Sounds so excited, Doug. And Spencer, our guest today is the author of the Substack newsletter called Social Stigma.
00:01:11
Speaker
And he writes some really great articles, I believe to be very balanced articles. and provide a lot of background information. It takes a decent amount of, of research to, to put these together, I am sure.
00:01:25
Speaker
So I'm going to welcome ah Spencer. Welcome Spencer to the CRM podcast.
Meet Spencer - Insights from a State Archaeologist
00:01:31
Speaker
Hey, thanks so much. i really appreciate y'all reaching out to me about this. So for those that are listening, but we'll be putting in a couple of links for you to read his articles.
00:01:44
Speaker
but The way the Substack works is, you know, he he puts his content out for free. It is he does have some kind of member only content, but they're really good stuff. Not that ah that the member only is not good stuff. I'm sure it is too bad. I haven't gotten to that point yet because I'm a new subscriber, but the what he provides, it's just really, if you if you want to know the ins and outs of some of these very controversial subjects, if he writes on it,
00:02:13
Speaker
I personally think it's just really well done. So it gives you a really well-rounded understanding. Some of these topics that people like to, you know, start with the sky is falling, we're all screwed mentality, rather than really looking at the nitty gritty of it. And really, if if we as archaeologists want to, number one, you know move forward in our career, number two, if we want to make a difference and we want to help others move forward in their career or we just want to make a difference in preservation.
00:02:43
Speaker
you know, facts are important. And so I think that these articles that I've read from Spencer really do that well. So we asked him if he would join us so that we could really do an in-depth discussion on the executive orders that have just been laid out in the last couple weeks and how, um in short, that will that will affect CRM. So I'd like to start off with Spencer. If you could just give us a little bit of a background you of you as an archaeologist.
00:03:14
Speaker
Thanks a lot, Heather. i I appreciate the kind words about the newsletter. i I do probably spend more time than I should on it, honestly, but it's been a fun thing to write about the last couple of years. I'm originally from East Tennessee, Smoky Mountains. I got my start in archaeology, working for the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.
00:03:32
Speaker
spent some time working for the federal agencies, the Bureau Land Management in California. I've spent some time working in academia. I've spent some time working in the private sector and in CRM and also as as a project manager more generally for ah energy projects in Wyoming.
00:03:51
Speaker
Now I'm the Wyoming State Archaeologist based out of Laramie, Wyoming. Our offices are based out of the anthropology department here. So I kind of split my time between doing some academic research about sites in Wyoming and the high plains and some stuff about the peopling of the Americas.
00:04:09
Speaker
ah We manage a repository here where we store all the artifacts. But also spend quite a bit of time engaged in and state level politics and kind of and more generally in federal politics, following policy and regulations and ah doing what we can do through the political system to do the best we can for historic preservation, historic resources. Great.
00:04:35
Speaker
Before we really dive into this subject matter, I'm really interested to hear a little rundown of how you got into writing on these subjects.
00:04:47
Speaker
It was really just a couple years ago, i I found myself just complaining too much to my friends and colleagues about stuff. Archaeologists. obviously like A lot of like conversations out in the field around campfires or you know at the bar at the happy hour.
00:05:04
Speaker
And i just thought it wasn't that's really not a very productive use of your time unless you put it to good use. So Substack around that time was kind of
Transparency and Regulation in CRM
00:05:14
Speaker
coming into prominence. And I started following a couple writers on it. And I just thought it was a good platform to get some of these thoughts down in perpetuity so that they're not just you know floating off into the ether of a of a bar or a campfire. They're actually ah documented somewhere and in a format where people from all over can weigh in and give their opinions and maybe ah provoke some thoughts that kind of thing overall it's been really good i it both i like getting these ideas out there but also just like sitting down and actually sorting them out uh in my own head so the best way to do that i've found is just writing about it and you know diving into the nitty-gritty of like of these issues and trying to synthesize your own thoughts about it and get them on type them out in this in this format and get them out there
00:06:00
Speaker
So in general, it's been both. I'm glad to hear that other people are benefiting from it. I've got like, I don't 250 subscribers now. ah But also it's it's been really beneficial for me too. And honestly, I'd recommend anybody that and thinks deeply about this stuff to do the same thing. It's just a really good way to but grapple with your own thoughts on some of these complicated issues.
00:06:23
Speaker
Excellent. You know, another aspect of your articles that i appreciate is that you have links. And so, you know, just like what Spencer is saying, if it is something, yeah know, I think if we're, you know, some people just want to be an archaeologist and they're not interested in these things and that's fine.
00:06:39
Speaker
But if you're going to complain and you're going to start feeling concerned, it it just having the information, knowing the facts will definitely put you in a better position to act but responsibly and may even make you feel a little bit better. Yeah.
00:06:56
Speaker
That's maybe not as bad as you might think it is. So what's nice is just like Spencer was saying is, you know, not only reading and being inspired by people like Spencer or hopefully maybe sometimes the CRM podcast that you go and do that. We all go and pursue our own path of of understanding by really looking and not just taking people's word for it.
00:07:20
Speaker
So I do appreciate you having links in your articles allows people to to do the same thing. Plus, it's very transparent way of writing. We're going to focus on seven, which is what your article focuses on, seven of the executive orders, or at least the areas that might impact CRM.
00:07:38
Speaker
And there's others potentially, but these are the biggies. So I'm going to list them off and then we'll just start going through them one by one. First one is, Unleashing American Energy.
00:07:49
Speaker
Second is the Wind Farms. and And we'll give you the actual titles or somewhat abbreviated titles. Promoting Civic Architecture. Federal Workforce Accountability.
00:08:03
Speaker
Regulatory freeze pending review. Return to in-person work and Indigenous knowledge and historic preservation. So let's start off with unleashing American energy. And I thought i would just really quickly read just to give us a ah and then we'll move forward.
00:08:26
Speaker
Section three of this unleashing American energy, and this is in Spencer's Article, immediate review of all agency actions that potentially burden the development of a domestic energy resources.
00:08:40
Speaker
The heads of all agencies shall review all existing but regulations, orders, guidance, documents, policies, settlements, consent orders, and any other agency actions collectively, agency actions, to identify those agency actions.
00:08:54
Speaker
And basically,
00:08:58
Speaker
or use of domestic energy resources with particular attention to oil natural gas coal hydropower biofuels critical mineral and nuclear energy resources or that are otherwise inconsistent with the policy set forth in section two you can go look that up as this order including restrictions on consumer choice of vehicles and appliances and basically this section B, subsection B just says that within 30 days, the data disorder, the sort of head of each agency shall in consultation with the director of OMB, Office of Management and Budget, and then National Economic Council develop and begin implementing actions to suspend, revise, or rescind all agency actions identified as unduly burdensome under the subsection A. There's more, but we'll leave it at that.
00:09:45
Speaker
So Spencer, but if you want to kind of weigh in about that and i think then we'll all weigh in. Yeah, I saw this one is potentially the most impactful on the American CRM sector, but basically because American CRM is solely dependent on the regulations that this executive order is is talking about.
00:10:09
Speaker
Anybody that listens to this knows Section 106 is kind of what we call the American CRM industry. And what that refers to is Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act, which is extremely short. If you go back and read it, it's like two or three sentences.
00:10:24
Speaker
basically just says that agencies have to consider the impact on historic properties before any federal undertaking. But out of that very short section in the National Historic Preservation Act, we've developed this enormous regulatory apparatus but based on the federal codes of regulation.
00:10:40
Speaker
And then from that set of codes, there's been all these subsidiary documents, you know all the bulletins and guidance documents that a lot of people in CRM are familiar with. So in my mind, and I wrote about this in ah in an earlier article having to do with the overturning of the Chevron deference.
00:10:58
Speaker
and We don't have to get into that in too much detail here, but but basically it puts CRM in a really tenuous position. you know the The NHPA is a congressional act. It's robust.
00:11:09
Speaker
It's really hard to repeal congressional acts. But The regulations that implement those congressional acts are in a really fragile kind of position and they can be changed. They can be rescinded, and especially after this Chevron deference decision by the United States Supreme Court makes it really easy to do that.
00:11:28
Speaker
So. I just I saw this executive order is potentially the most impactful and potentially the most deleterious to American CRM. And since I wrote this, actually, the the new secretary of the interior, Doug Burgum, put out a secretary order specifically calling out Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act for review. So.
00:11:49
Speaker
It came to fruition kind of the way I thought it might, where this is certainly on the radar of the Secretary of the Interior, along with a lot of other environmental regulations involving NEPA and the Clean Air Act and Migratory Birds Treaty Act and all these other sort of environmental preservation oriented regulations that the and the Interior uses to implement their projects.
Political Dynamics of Executive Orders
00:12:14
Speaker
Right. Thanks, Spencer. Great overview. Yeah. I would just add some more background to, I mean, we're going to be talking executive orders and stuff like that. But an executive order is a type of executive directive and it actually means very little.
00:12:32
Speaker
In the sense that like if Trump was to say, I'd like fries with that, that is also executive directive. It's just coming from the president. There's some legal things about what has to go into a registry of very regulations.
00:12:48
Speaker
And so this comes into that. They somewhat get overblown in and media. A lot of executive orders are essentially a good PR, so it's always good to keep that in mind.
00:12:59
Speaker
And that's sort of, you know when you're reading some of these, it's to realize actually some of it's just bullshit. But the bad side of that is this could happen without an executive order.
00:13:11
Speaker
So a lot of executive orders are actually passed up from agencies that the president and puts out in a PR sort of stunt, as it were. So just this regular this review...
00:13:23
Speaker
could have been initiated by the and ah Secretary of Interior if he wanted to on his own, and can be done at any time in the future by any other sort of Secretary of Interior, or even potentially lower down on the the food chain as it were as well. So it's worth pointing out that like this sort of review is not gonna go away with rescinding of a executive order. It could pop up in different ways.
00:13:50
Speaker
And essentially, the review that's gonna happen, and there's a couple of laws around this. Basically, it has to go through a process. And so when you start, you initiate these reviews, basically you have to put out for public comment, you have to post it in certain places, say it's going to be a review.
00:14:07
Speaker
But sort of the unfortunate part about writing reviews is as long as they follow the process, they don't really actually have to listen to public consultation. So at any point, this could be happening at any time in the future. So even if, for example, well, I think Secretary of Interior had said that they're going to review it, and so it's probably going to happen now or next couple of months fairly soon, but we're not kind of out of the woods in that if even if this review comes out fairly okay,
00:14:39
Speaker
we could easily have another one in six months or a year or 18 months. it's It's not something that's going to go away and anytime soon. Yeah. Understood. Yeah, I agree. I think the other, just to have a couple of things to add to that. First of all, public review for any kind of document like this, whether it's CEQA in California, CEQA in New York or or any of the others, including federal, you know, public review,
00:15:07
Speaker
That's a normal thing that, you know, the public weighs in it could just be taken with a grain of salt. But the one check, because the government's full of checks and balances, the one check with that is that then these groups can sue.
00:15:25
Speaker
And sometimes that suing doesn't. does is effective. So it isn't just that the public review is out there. It comes in and people can just ignore, which I think a lot of people are just assuming that's what's going to occur.
00:15:39
Speaker
But, you know, when there are issues brought up and if those issues are considerable and they have some kind of merit, you know, there could be a lawsuit that is won later on down the road.
00:15:55
Speaker
So it isn't just a a no. So I'll wait for you to finish, Heather, but I'll come back. and it's As anything, it's a bit more complicated and fun. of course it is, but we can't delve into that complicated We can't get that deep into it because we have seven to to um to review here.
00:16:14
Speaker
But definitely. And we can maybe cover this on another podcast because I really do want to pick Spencer's brain for all of these just in an overview. And the other thing with the executive orders is that, you know, these are triggering actions is a strategy by the Trump administration to trigger actions in a public forum.
00:16:34
Speaker
So that's why it's being done in this way. That's why he's signing executive orders and having press conferences in his Oval Office is because he wants people to know what what's going on. And you could argue he only wants people to know certain things that are going on, but he is being transparent in at least these executive orders. so And it's triggering action in in a way. Now, you're right. It could occur anyway.
00:16:59
Speaker
But I think it's it is if nothing else, it's letting his base know that he is following up on what he said was going to do. And most people are agreeable or agreeing to that.
00:17:13
Speaker
Andrew, do you want to weigh in before we go to the next segment? the The short answer is is not really. i I do want to just hear what Spencer has to say because I think this is so vital. I think even just covering this first bit is is so good you know for people to hear. So I'll hold my usual pithy comments until until the end.
00:17:32
Speaker
yeah Fair enough. Okay. We'll be right back with section two.
00:17:37
Speaker
Welcome back to CRM Archaeology Podcast episode 306. And we're talking about the new executive orders and their potential impact on CRM.
00:17:51
Speaker
We have Spencer Pelton here from Social Stigma. And we were just talking about the unleashing American energy executive order and the potential impact on CRM.
00:18:03
Speaker
During our break, ah Spencer brought up a good point that we'd like to at least jump on, talk about it real quick before we go on to the next additional executive orders. I also would like to get your your take on undue burden, unduly burdened some.
00:18:19
Speaker
That I think unduly is an important word, action word here. So, but first, why don't you ahead with what you're bringing up during our break? I think the important thing to take home from this is just a lot of people in the private sector of archaeology, feel like for a long time, I've had more confidence in the sort of the regulatory structure that underpins the industry than they really should have. you know, all this stuff is really coming out of regulations, not acts of Congress.
00:18:51
Speaker
And uh i feel like a lot of folks have and me included for a long time until i kind of got in the weeds of this stuff we just kind of taken it for granted this has always existed this will always exist But it's not necessarily true. And i just really would like to impart that we should be spending a lot more time thinking about how to enshrine some of these kind of basic practices that have become normative and CRM over the last several decades into actual laws passed through Congress, as opposed to the regulations that mandate this practice and dictate how we do it.
00:19:26
Speaker
i I totally agree. i think that it would also provide consistency across the board. mean, I think a lot of what has been the impetus or the argument on the other side of this is that, you know, sometimes you can have a very reasonable approach to our investigations, our studies and and process. And sometimes people go,
00:19:50
Speaker
you know like They do go, i think it becomes burdensome and sometimes it doesn't become logical in the way that it's done. And a lot of times you know when you don't have the ah strength of having it actually be ah codified, the law, there's a lot of interpretation involved.
00:20:12
Speaker
And i think that it would actually do a favor to those that are in on the federal side. state archaeologists to actually have, you know, ways that are a lot more codified so that the interpretation and the pressure to interpret from various different sides in one direction or another is not as wide open as it is right now.
00:20:36
Speaker
And I think we could definitely, our discipline could definitely benefit from some more consistency in methodology. i mean, it's one of those great debates of like,
00:20:47
Speaker
It's a mixed bag ah because in a way, once you once you've put it down to law, it's a lot harder to change. um And then you end up with those sort of like fun, silly laws that we always, you know, everyone always puts up on comedy shows or something like that. Like it's illegal to run through a town on a Sunday yelling, clear the horses or some really weird you know We've all seen those odd laws and stuff like that.
00:21:14
Speaker
I think it becomes... Chicken feathers in ah California can't drive and chicken feathers can't fly out of your truck. That's actually law. yeah Yeah. Again, really, really... You get that sort of level and then you know it it makes it hard to change for... you know The world's always changing.
00:21:37
Speaker
And so... you know, there's sometimes you codify a very specific thing and like there'll be laws about like, The craziest thing can think about is like in the UK, it's like to to start a company or to like shut down a company, you literally have to post a notice in a paper gazette put out because that was a law like a really long time ago.
00:22:03
Speaker
gazette that like pretty much no one reads because, you know, it's paper and we have the internet these days. So there's things like that. So it's ah it's a double-edged sword. i think our issue is that...
00:22:14
Speaker
We've got used to it, and now there's a ah sort of regime change, as it were, that is incredibly hostile to what what we currently do and how we currently do things.
00:22:27
Speaker
And now it's it's looking like less of a good choice that we didn't go in there and get a lot more detail in the laws. But I just throw it out there. It is I'm not sure if there's a perfect like medium where you can have just the right amount of regulations and the right amount of everything written into the law. I think it's a bit of a trial and error, but I'd go with Spencer. What he said is, we've probably gotten and way too complacent in the last couple of years, the last couple of decades, and probably should have been thinking a lot more about like once we had these regulations, how we could codify some of them.
Wind Farms and CRM Implications
00:23:08
Speaker
ah Spencer, you had your. Yeah, I'll just real quick present the other side of the double edged sword, which is, you know, as cumbersome and convoluted as the legislative processes, it does produce robust consensus building on really the largest scale.
00:23:28
Speaker
And the danger in kind of relying upon regulations that can, that are adaptable, which is, can be good, but that are also extremely malleable to like the, the politics du jour is that you end up drifting away from the original purpose of that consensus building exercise of passing an act of Congress and, and really the The regulations become so divorced from the original intent at points that you really have to step back and and wonder if if there's any consensus behind those regulations ah at all anymore.
00:24:04
Speaker
it just It becomes super divorced from like the kind of the purely democratic process of like getting a bill drafted and through two houses of Congress. and yeah Again, yeah, you're right. It's ah it's a double-edged sword. of It's less adaptable, but it's also...
00:24:20
Speaker
ah more democratic, I guess, in my mind. Very true. Good point. Great point. but We just, we can't give up on trying to make things better because other people have done, have, you know, like things are out of date or, or there's been some ridiculous laws put on the books, you know, we need to do better. We need to learn from that and do better. And I do like Spencer's point that it is a democratic process. It doesn't just happen.
00:24:48
Speaker
These are laws that, you know, and that that's where people need to engage themselves and really be part of that discussion to make sure that these next steps, you know, the, You know, codifying a little bit better our discipline and how we do it is, you know, it's it's important.
00:25:08
Speaker
And right now, I'll tell you from somebody who works in many different states, it is all over the place. And there are some states that are very reasonable and some even it can be even all over the place within a state and how people interpret that.
00:25:23
Speaker
You know, some some states have some really great methodology. It's already you know laid out. And and, you know, when you're walking in exactly, you know, exactly how they're going to what they're going to expect from you and others don't have anything.
00:25:36
Speaker
And some are really.
00:25:40
Speaker
insanely unduly burdensome. And I do think that for somebody who works primarily in California, but all over the country, you know, I run into this a lot.
00:25:52
Speaker
And those of us that are in CRM that have been working, especially if you're more in the managerial position, you come across this all the time. And yes, we are here to preserve, you know, heritage and cultural resources.
00:26:07
Speaker
But we also need to do it in a reasonable way. And I think we have created a lot of enemies in our discipline because sometimes we are not reasonable.
00:26:18
Speaker
And yeah so I'll leave it at that just because I don't want to go down too far down the road. But all right, so let's move on to the of wind farms. You had a little seem like in your article, you're a little kind of up in the air about trying to figure out, you know, why.
00:26:35
Speaker
Why this executive order came about. You share that? Yeah, this executive order, i i well I just thought it was funny. It has such a cumbersome name. Temporary withdrawal of all areas on the outer continental shelf from offshore wind leasing and review of the federal government's leasing and permit permitting practices for wind projects.
00:26:53
Speaker
It rolls off the tongue. There's no Make America Great Again, but does it does describe the intent of the order really well. you know I was concerned about this one because I'd say the vast majority of the big energy projects in our state in Wyoming, it's a very windy place, and they are attached to wind farms. and so it's For instance, my my first CRM job in Wyoming back in 2013 was surveying in advance of a wind farm that still has not been built.
00:27:23
Speaker
say that. But and a lot of my friends, um you know, ah they basically become kind of the bread and butter of the CRM sector in in Wyoming. And I suspect that's going to dry up pretty quick. I mean, maybe the wind companies are still going to try to do some preparatory work for a time when these wind leasing activities are started again. But I would suspect that they would just think it's too much of a risk to devote of capital to to doing that work at this point. And it might be a tough field season for a lot of
00:27:56
Speaker
for a lot of CRM companies and in Wyoming and a lot of other windy places in the lower 48 as well. Well, I'll say just from somebody who's worked on a few wind farm projects and some that have taken probably, I mean, just crazy amount of years because of some of the unduly burdensome manners of doing things in the federal government.
00:28:18
Speaker
But, you know, the wind companies have seen this coming. So these companies have been shifting gears in preparation for who, for whether it was the Harris harris administration or the Trump administration that entered the White House next.
00:28:34
Speaker
So I do think, you know, this that there may be an impact here or there will be a impact here, but these companies are good at shifting gears real fast. And they have been preparing for this, at least the ones that,
00:28:49
Speaker
that are good at what they do, as far as making money that is, have been preparing for this shift in the energy sector. So I saw it, I've seen it for the at least the last year and a half, two years, because some of the writing was on the wall.
00:29:06
Speaker
So I don't think it's going to be the end of work. ah Definitely there may be a lull, but I don't think that there's going to be, especially with how quickly things are moving right now with the Trump administration.
00:29:19
Speaker
i I think maybe people are not going to be working on wind farm projects, but they'll be working on other kinds of energy projects. Yeah, and I should add to some of the shift that we've seen in this state towards building wind projects solely on private lands might have been ah shift that was inspired and by the anticipation of something like this. You know, there's no federal nexus, you can build a wind farm wherever you want. Basically, you just need approval from like the industrial siting commissions of your state and and any state laws.
Federal Workforce Accountability and Policy
00:29:51
Speaker
Right. So, yeah.
00:29:52
Speaker
So there is that possibility, right? now you know Federal wind leases are not the only wind projects that are built. Such an excellent point. And that is something I i i wanted to bring up earlier. or So I'm glad you reminded me.
00:30:05
Speaker
You know, this is something that people have to. And I don't think everyone understands, especially for those that are doing the really hard work in the field. They may not understand, you know, this line in the sand between ah federal triggered projects and projects that happen on land.
00:30:20
Speaker
So federally triggered. And for those that already know this, forgive me, but I think it's important that that we do say this for those that don't understand federally triggered permit ah projects or those that are on federal land, those that are funded by federal monies and those that have some sort of permitting trigger, some other kind of trigger.
00:30:40
Speaker
So even though it's on private land, if let's say it impacts U.S. waters or you have those kinds of permits, then it would still have a federal trigger. But Spencer is exactly right. This does not mean that wind farms are going away.
00:30:55
Speaker
There has been a shift, oh you know, with these companies to to figure out other ways of making it happen. So I think we'll go on to the next one, federal workforce accountability.
00:31:08
Speaker
So Spencer, you want to outline that real quick? Yeah, well, i a I pulled out several of these executive orders that just kind of have direct impacts on the federal workforce.
00:31:19
Speaker
The first one that we're talking about here is is basically about policy influencing positions. yeah I think this is the one you're talking about. It's restoring accountability to policy influencing positions within the federal workforce. so So basically, this is an extension of an executive order, actually, from kind of the final days of the first Trump administration, it establishes a new federal job schedule specific to positions I'm quoting here, positions of confidential policy, determining policymaking or policy advocating character not normally subject to change as a result of a presidential transition.
00:31:55
Speaker
So. I probably have the most tenuous grasp on this of any of these, but my understanding is that, you know, there's a lot of positions in the federal government that a lot of them in D.C.
00:32:07
Speaker
And really theyre their primary job is to do policy research, and write federal regulations or write federal guidance documents and kind of trickle those down to the lower levels of their respective agencies.
00:32:23
Speaker
This is how you get the codes of federal regulations that implement Section 106 or the CFRs that implement NAGPRA, for instance instance, and the same way with it basically any other federal law.
00:32:38
Speaker
and This might make for some robust conversation. It already has actually on my blog, but I'm generally supportive of this action. I, these federal policymakers, this is not kind of like your local field office archeologist.
00:32:53
Speaker
ah These are very powerful positions whose decisions really impact thousands and thousands of people. And they don't have really any accountability to be just like any other federal worker. They don't have accountability.
00:33:07
Speaker
to be fired or to be promoted on the other hand. And i really feel like they should have, the that the executive branch should have a little more say in who these people are that are writing policies for these agencies.
00:33:22
Speaker
You know, again, it's, there's some drawbacks to that. You don't want a revolving door of policymakers really, but If a policymaker is really handing down some pretty onerous regulations or some regulations that are really out of touch with the goals of of the administration or of the agency as a whole, then there should be some ah lever a pull to pull to remove that person from that position. And right now there isn't.
00:33:48
Speaker
So this executive order basically addresses that issue. Right. And just a reminder, you know, when when you have and administration that in this case, the Trump administration that has entered the White House, it was done in democratic process through voting.
00:34:06
Speaker
And so, you know, to have people in positions making decisions. it is ah reasonable for those decisions to be in line with the current administration that is in the White House that was voted by the American people to be there.
00:34:22
Speaker
So, you know, this is not uncommon and what is good for the goose is good for the gander. So this would move forward to the next administration, whoever that is. So,
00:34:34
Speaker
You know, I think as a whole, looking at these executive orders, but looking at what transparent are the what what happens as a result of them, it's important to understand that this is moving forward going to not just be for this administration, but for future administrations.
00:34:51
Speaker
Okay, we're going to go to our next segment three. We'll be right back. Welcome back to CRM Archaeology podcast, episode 306. We're talking about the executive orders from the Trump administration that have recently happened the last two weeks and ah their potential impact on CRM archaeology. we This is our last segment and we've got a lot to cover.
00:35:17
Speaker
So Doug, you had something that you were going to say in the last segment. So why don't we start off with that and then we'll move forward. and It was about the sort of press release circus nature of executive orders.
00:35:29
Speaker
It's just also for everyone. And this goes for any administration because it, you know, this one's particularly bad, but there'll be other executive orders that maybe you'd like from a different administration.
00:35:41
Speaker
Just because it's been put out as an executive order does not make it legal. So that last one probably violates the law. it's going to court. So it's already been sued.
00:35:52
Speaker
My other comment on that sort thing is, I may have said this story before on on the podcast, but there's there's a great sort of story from the business world about Sony.
00:36:05
Speaker
you know, it 1980s, and they were putting out a new boom box. And so they they did a wonderful little, you know, a few people in the room, and they put out, like, just a plain black one, and they put out, you know, obviously 90s, late 80s. So they had this one that was like,
00:36:20
Speaker
Neon green and neon yellow and neon orange and all this crazy colors and all that stuff. And they asked, you know, you know which one do you guys like the best? Everyone's like, oh, of course, the really colorful one. You know, but that's the amazing one. know And they're like, okay.
00:36:37
Speaker
They thanked everyone for their time. and they said, okay, well, you know, as a reward for participating in this sort of focus group, you can pick one of those boom boxes to take with you. And pretty much everyone took the black one exactly against what they said that they liked.
00:36:54
Speaker
and And the moral of that story is basically look at behavior, don't necessarily look at what people say. Because, you know, people lie and also people lie to themselves. And yeah have to be really careful with this executive order as well.
00:37:08
Speaker
a lot of laws, you know, you'll always see the law of like make America great again or the law to prevent child abuse
Regulatory Reviews and CRM Practices
00:37:15
Speaker
or something like that. They always name them some really great name or really crappy ones. So you get some crap ones in there, but they try to now like name things really great names so that they can then, you know, play politics and be like, oh, they voted against the keep kids safe law and all that sort of stuff.
00:37:31
Speaker
So they'll put in a lot of you know, fancy wording, but it's really looking at what the intent of that sort of ah executive order was. And so you can look at, you know, this is a rehash of the one he did at the, I think he put it out in either October or November of, you know, his last term. And basically, I'll,
00:37:51
Speaker
A lot didn't happen with it. So a bunch of agencies just came back and flat out said, oh yeah, we have no one. yeah We might have 10,000 people, 50,000 people in our agency, but actually no one qualifies for Schedule F.
00:38:05
Speaker
And then they also had some agencies who basically came back and were like, oh, yeah, there's only 600 people in this agency. I think it was the budget office or something like that.
00:38:15
Speaker
400 in some of them qualify. But some of those people were executive assistants, people who clearly had nothing to do with policy at all.
00:38:26
Speaker
And I think on paper, it sounds like a good idea. And definitely, I can totally understand you know I think those are good points about being accountable and stuff like that. But in practice, this is really meant so that they can reclassify people who disagree with them and then fire them.
00:38:43
Speaker
Now, whether they can legally do that, it's going to have to go through the courts because it probably violates a couple of laws. But yeah, it's basically like, while this executive order sounds good on paper, it's actually really shit.
00:38:59
Speaker
So I think we need to get on to the next executive order. But I will say one thing here. Listen, this this is politics. It happens i in in every single administration. And i think that we are doing ourselves a disservice as archaeologists um who who want to be archaeologists. Right.
00:39:16
Speaker
That when we start going down the road of, of you know, we're all screwed, right? Based on what we assume, whatever administration is in the office, but it that we assume that they're thinking this and they want to destroy us. No, no, no. This is not based on assumptions, though.
00:39:34
Speaker
This is based on what they did the last time. And that's what i'm saying is like, you you got to be able to call a ball a ball, a strike a strike. And while this one has, it looks good. all It's a strike, man.
00:39:46
Speaker
on all know kind On all counts. So we're not going to go down that road. We're going to move on to the next the next order. Regulatory freeze pending review.
00:39:57
Speaker
Spencer, do you mind giving us a... but This one's pretty simple. i mean, the the federal government produces a lot of regulations. There's like hundreds of thousands of pages of them. They're coming out every day in the federal register every week.
00:40:11
Speaker
This basically just says ah we're not doing that anymore unless those regulations are are reviewed by the head of the respective government. agencies. What I wrote in this is that I kind of assumed that already happened. So like, for instance, when there's new federal regulations that come out pertaining to Section 106 or whatever, i kind of assumed that like the final signature was the Secretary of the Interior.
00:40:36
Speaker
But I guess that wasn't true. i generally, again, think this is a good call. This is the same thing i was talking about earlier. If you get too many people too far down the ladder writing regulations and putting them out, ah you run the danger of drifting away from the core missions of of the agencies.
00:40:55
Speaker
so I feel pretty strongly that the the regulations should be drifted up to the top of the respective agencies. That makes sense. I mean, some of these are some regulations are good, right? and They protect good things. And so freezing these things,
00:41:08
Speaker
you know, could potentially have some harmful impacts. But I think it's probably a good thing to step back and actually reevaluate this process and make sure that everyone within at least agencies are within alignment on and directions that are coming down from them.
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah. So, you know, you have any time you have and this you Trump administration is going at this from a business perspective. When you have a new, you know, ah a new entity that takes over a business, they typically will audit that business. They will try to figure out, OK, where are their inefficiencies? Where are their areas that are not consistent with the current administration?
00:41:50
Speaker
the current leaders or a thought process and their missions, just like Spencer said. So this is meant to be an audit. And I absolutely agree with you. Like the further down you go, the less perspective that somebody has.
00:42:05
Speaker
So when you have been in this business and anybody in this business knows that when you get to a certain position of managerial, you know, ah managerial position, you sit back and you're like oh my gosh,
00:42:18
Speaker
If I had known this when I was starting out as a tech, my there's things I wouldn't have done and things I wouldn't have said.
Return to In-Person Work and Its Impact
00:42:24
Speaker
and would have done things differently. So the better perspective, that the the grander perspective that you have that can only really be gained with experience, practical experience, is understanding.
00:42:34
Speaker
You know, it's important to decision making. And so when you have people that are making these policies and there's no check or balance with those policies and they're just being enacted, that's a problem.
00:42:45
Speaker
It is a problem just just from a consistency perspective. So I think that this is a really I think it's a good thing. I think it'll benefit anybody, any administration that is following.
00:42:57
Speaker
So. Spencer. Yeah, I'll just add real quick. I mean, and a lot of policies in in our sector, you know, they're written from these very siloed sort of sort of perspectives in my mind. Right.
00:43:11
Speaker
So, like, just because it's good for the circumstances with which you're most familiar doesn't mean it's good for the entire United States. And filtering those decisions up to the very top to somebody that has that kind of a nationwide perspective, I think is just good, good practice.
00:43:30
Speaker
And from my own experience in my small managerial role, you know, I've even, when I've dug into the weeds of some of our staff's decisions, kind of down in curation or whatever, and, I figured out that they were like you know labeling an artifact the wrong way for the last six months or whatever. And they just made a decision and went with it and never made it to me. And they had this kind of global significance and you know global in the context of my my office.
00:43:54
Speaker
So I don't know. I just I feel pretty strongly that ah those those secretaries, the cabinet secretaries are there for a reason. And it's to make these big decisions that impact a lot of people's lives.
00:44:06
Speaker
And you can have what they call malicious compliance. You can have people that, you know, go off in in in a really crazy direction because they have an agenda that not a part of what they're tasked to do in their job.
00:44:21
Speaker
And no, and that that's not good for any administration. It's not good for this country either. So, and it's not good for our discipline. So I think that having some kind of Like you have that in companies. People don't know. No good company is going to have people writing reports and then just sending it off to the client, no matter what level the archaeologist is sending it off to a client without some kind of review.
00:44:43
Speaker
It's got to happen. Yeah. So this is another sort of, got to do a little digging. It's in a way a non-issue, but kind of is an issue as in, Normally it does go up to a high level anyways to be signed off, whether they actually read it or not.
00:45:03
Speaker
you know your Your guess is good as mine. It's more of a technicality in that in a way it it sort of freezes anything coming out for the moment until basically it's a way of quickly just freezing a bunch of stuff until they have a chance to review it otherwise.
00:45:22
Speaker
It basically puts on hold. It would normally go up to the top anyways. Right now, there's not a lot of tops or there's interim people appointed while they wait for approval from Congress.
00:45:35
Speaker
So basically, this is sort of a minor rule that basically just says you have to wait until... those interim people sign it off. It's basically a way of pausing all the previous regulations that would have gone out under Biden in the next couple of months. So it's kind of a non-starter. it's It's a very highly technical executive order that's kind of just a bit meh, but it is a way to just making sure that none of the Biden regulations that would have gone through in the next couple of weeks or months can go through until they decide if they want them to or not.
00:46:11
Speaker
OK. and And, you know, that maybe that is the case, but that actually it maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But, you know, that happens with every administration. And when you have some of these edicts or policies that go through at the end, ah sometimes that's not a good thing either, because when you have an administration that decides to put policies and policies right at the very end of their of their administration and to just slip them in really quick and then leave.
00:46:39
Speaker
That's also not a real effective way of ah of leadership either. So, you know, putting that kind of yeah check in any administration probably should do that.
00:46:50
Speaker
Andrew, did you have something? No, I want to get to the next thing. I am like a cruel director at this point. I'm going to the next show do it. Return to in-person work. Exactly. Return in-person work. Yes. Yes. Spencer.
00:47:04
Speaker
i'll do I'll talk about both of these. yeah these are i do i don't know i don't like both of these. ah Basically, there's a hiring freeze and also ah just a blanket return to in-person work.
00:47:15
Speaker
I just feel like this is a very outdated way to do we We have a federal workforce for a reason. i can i can vouch from personal experience that they're not just sitting on their asses, like eating chips on their couch all day. they actually work really hard.
00:47:31
Speaker
So if you have a hiring freeze and you're basically just letting the federal workforce diminish through attrition, like through retirements and people moving on,
00:47:44
Speaker
i'm I'm not fundamentally opposed to that, but at first you need to get rid of some of the workload. And <unk> i feel like they're putting the cart before the horse a little bit here. Again, I'm not fundamentally opposed to having a smaller federal workforce, but they're there for a reason.
00:47:58
Speaker
They're doing a job. They're not... sitting on their asses all day. you just They just need to have less of a job through deregulation if they're going to do this. I don't have really a stance on that either way, but I just feel like it's ah it's a bad move. You're just going to stress out the remaining federal workforce more because they're going to be tasked with doing more stuff.
00:48:16
Speaker
And then the return to in-person work I get the sentiment, but this is just a completely political gesture in my mind.
Office Space, Remote Work, and Civic Architecture
00:48:23
Speaker
I do think I've had personal experience with some federal employees in recent years that have really abused it. And, you know, they're you're doing archaeology for a different state than they live in.
00:48:35
Speaker
They're managing archaeology remotely from a Zoom screen. And I just don't really feel like that's an effective way to do it. On the other hand, I just don't feel like it's that big of it a deal. And and honestly like ah gsa outsourcing their office space to people's houses if they want to do that is a much more efficient way to house the federal workforce i kind of feel like it's going to end up being a cost increase because ah you're going to have to get more office space if everyone needs an office there's a ton of remote federal employees now and it's not just kova that did it it started way before that but And so I just feel like they took a they took a hatchet to this when they should have taken a scalpel.
00:49:15
Speaker
Some people certainly need to be in the office. A lot of people do not. i I actually think and it's it's a calling strategy in some ways, because there are people that are so married to the in person or so married to remote work.
00:49:29
Speaker
And just like you said, that are in a totally different state, but working on, know, and it's going to automatically call that workforce because people are not going to move their, they're not going to move back to that state that they're working in.
00:49:45
Speaker
Right. So I think that that was part of the strategy. The other thing is reactive. It's a, it's a statement as a statement. And we know that there's, you know, both president Trump and, and Elon Musk are not for remote work.
00:50:00
Speaker
I do personally, we've talked about remote work. Andrew and I are actually, you know, We like remote work. I definitely think that there's a lot to be said for people being a lot more productive.
00:50:14
Speaker
in some positions ah when they're working in person. Also, the collaboration between people is is better. It just is better. I mean, I've been doing this for over 20 years and remote work. I tell you, it's it it is it's less productive more than it is productive.
00:50:31
Speaker
But I don't think, and you tell me, Spencer, what you think. I really don't think that this is going to impact people. the archeology side as much because we're in the field. yes Yeah.
00:50:43
Speaker
but I don't think it will impact it too much. I do know a lot of federal archeologists that that work remote. It's not the majority of them by any means, but yeah, i mean, archeology is a tactile discipline. We kind of have to deal with stuff.
00:50:55
Speaker
And I don't think many of us were working remote anyway, really in the, in the federal workforce, at least. Yeah.
00:51:04
Speaker
And I do agree with you. i honestly do not know one archaeologist. And now, you know, in the last year, I've been working with many different state archaeologists. And i don't know one that isn't burdened with a a tremendous ah workload and are not working very hard.
00:51:21
Speaker
So I agree with you. Let's see. Andrew, do you have some? I thought I saw your hand for a second. ah No, I'm still just directing from the background. bi like are we ah Did do we make it through or is there one more? I i think we made it through. we were going you know are the Are the pretty buildings one?
00:51:39
Speaker
Yes, we did we did. We were going to kind of touch on that. It's more of a light, at least lighthearted in a way. Although architectural historians, I think architectural historians probably like this, but Yeah. it might oh yeah So it is promoting civic architecture.
00:51:54
Speaker
So, you know, whatever people want to assume is, is the purpose behind this. I do think that, you know, that that's the whole idea behind the preservation, especially because it's so funny environment.
00:52:07
Speaker
It's so funny. It's like all these, all these other ones are like, Ooh, kind of gloom and doom. And this last one's like very like pro section 106, you know, it's with pro national historic preservation act. Absolutely.
00:52:18
Speaker
It's a photo op because- That's okay okay. I'll take what I can get. But but it's a photo op for for for nothing because they're like, i they should take on the community, regional, and you know whatever. and actually the architectural standards- um architectural governance, I forget what the document's called, already says that.
00:52:39
Speaker
Like, they're literally announcing something. Enough of the stuff we've been talking about. Like, it already says it, you know. but yeah Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, they're like, we should make prettier buildings. and they're like, yeah.
Closing Remarks and Future Directions
00:52:51
Speaker
we should rewrite the regulations and you're like, the regulations already say make prettier buildings. um It just doesn't happen. Sometimes you need to have a reminder. Sometimes for whatever, how, and we don't know, you know, how this is going to be moving forward. Maybe this is just a precursor to some more policy that's going to come down.
00:53:12
Speaker
So we don't know, but this is a, it's a teaser. It's a, you know. I appreciate the sentiment and like trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. But literally like when you when you have to tender for as a architectural firm for federal buildings you have to literally go through those that document and be like and this is how we meet this so like they already know that they need to say like in new mexico all federal buildings basically have to have stucco you know okay so then why is it not happening revival so so doug then why is it not happening i know you've been in scotland for a while why is it not happening because we got some ugly buildings government buildings that ain't happening
00:53:52
Speaker
yeah well i'll tell you it's taking advantage of the regional style which might no no no it's not regional style these are no that is not true inconsistent completely inconsistent with the surrounding environment terrible i find that our guest let's let's be kind to our guest spencer wants to say some stuff hey spencer what's up i just I just thought this one was funny. i mean, in the context of all these super serious things, cutting budgets and employees and regulations, there's just this weird one about like making pretty buildings.
00:54:22
Speaker
Yeah. i'm like Out of all of them, I kind of feel like a lot of these executive orders were just like handed to Trump from like the Heritage Foundation or something. Yeah. I kind of feel like he came up with this. Like this is the one that he came up with.
00:54:34
Speaker
I can't agree with you more. It totally feels like this building is going to be so beautiful. it's gonna be the most beautiful building. It's full of gold and columns. you know like but and i do know I didn't know this beforehand, but i didn't Mar-a-Lago is a national historic site. for yeah I didn't know that until I researched this. and It's just really funny. He he likes beautiful stuff, obviously. and this This is a little glimpse into the soul of Donald Trump, I think.
00:55:01
Speaker
I think so, too. And dude, i did I do want to end up before before we finish. I know we're we're just about, you know, the way out of time. I will say that, ah Spencer, i I teach a CRM class and I'm always looking for someone who can bust down all this like really difficult law based stuff.
00:55:20
Speaker
And your blog has been so helpful for me. thank you. Yeah. Honestly, I was shocked that you had only 250 subscribers or whatever. I'm like, dude, what i what I want to say as somebody who does like media stuff as well. And it's like i have my YouTube channel and all this kind of jazz.
00:55:39
Speaker
I know that there's going times where you feel like you're just like shouting into a cave. You're going be like, I wrote this thing. i don't know. Like, does anybody even care? Does it suck? Is it good? I'm telling you, dude, just keep doing what you're doing because it really helps. So I was so happy when I found your, your, uh, sub stack.
00:55:57
Speaker
I appreciate that, Andrew. It's, it's nice that that time's going to good use for sure. It absolutely is. It definitely is. You know, it just, I think this is a reminder, but we can, obviously we have a wide breadth of, of opinions on this podcast and that's what makes it great.
00:56:14
Speaker
Right. they all And we respect each other for those, for those opinions. And that's how you learn is to really be open to listening to other people with different perspectives. But when it comes to your career right now, please do not make any rash decisions thinking your career is over. you the The house is burning down. Right there.
00:56:36
Speaker
Really? I, I am. suggest, highly suggest that people really do and start with ah Spencer's articles and really do some more research on what is the possibility. And you know what? You could be from Doug's perspective and assume that everything is done for nefarious purposes.
00:56:55
Speaker
Not everything. I'm not saying you're saying everything, but I'm not assuming that's what they do them for. I mean, like I literally just said, that's their actions. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not saying it's all nefarious. No, no, no, it's not all nefarious. I mean, pretty buildings, i agree with Spence, man. Like, that really does seem like the most random, like, they're not pretty enough. We need to make them the prettiest, prettiest buildings ever. The most prettiest.
00:57:22
Speaker
I enjoyed that laugh. I did not criticize. I mean, like I criticized in that they're already supposed to be pretty, but obviously not the prettiest in the world of the very best. However we want to say it, but but i'm gonna say actions pretty pi things it's actuallys like, yeah, I think I'm not saying perspective. I'm literally saying that's what they do.
00:57:45
Speaker
and that's, but it cuts both ways. Like, you know, it's Some of the stuff I would also say is not that big of a deal and we shouldn't get worked up about it because it's not nefarious. So, you know, so so it's actions. no my point My point is, and we'll leave this podcast with this point, is that, you know, do your research.
00:58:07
Speaker
Don't make decisions based on assumptions. really try to focus on what really is going to impact you. There may be some of these executive orders that are going to be impactful in a negative way. Let's say that is the case, but is that going to affect you? is that going to affect everyone in this country? Is that going to affect you?
00:58:25
Speaker
So really focus if you're, if you're going to, you if you want to research things aside, just for your own interest, that's one thing. But if you're really making decisions on your career and your personal career,
00:58:37
Speaker
your decisions and what you're going to do with your life, really make sure it's an educated decision. Do the research and determine really what is going to impact you from practical perspective.
00:58:49
Speaker
And with that, we'll leave you. We are going to be following up with other episodes on, I'm probably digging a little bit deeper into the Chevron case. We're going to dig a little deeper into into the wind farm and also into this last executive order that that Spencer touched on. And that is indigenous knowledge and the historic preservation dealing with those two things.
00:59:14
Speaker
So we'll have some more podcasts coming. and So keep an eye out for them. Thank you for joining us. And with that, we'll bid adieu.
00:59:25
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.archpodnet.com slash CRM Archaeologist. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.
00:59:47
Speaker
Support the show and the network at archpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions. We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere, and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks to everyone for joining me this week. Thanks also to the listeners for tuning in, and we'll see you in the field.
01:00:04
Speaker
Goodbye. See you guys next time. Goodbye. Bye, Spencer. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, y'all. Thanks for the invite.
01:00:19
Speaker
The Archaeology Podcast Network is 10 years old this year. Our executive producer is Ashley Airy. Our social media coordinator is Matilda Seabrook. And our chief editor is Rachel Roden. The Archaeology Podcast Network was co-founded by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle in 2014 and is part of Cultural Media and DigTech LLC. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network.
01:00:40
Speaker
Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archepodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.