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Consulting to Data Science
43 Plays1 year ago
Michal is a Senior Data Scientist at Microsoft but not before working at other companies such as NBC Universal, Facebook, and Delotte. He completed the Springboard Data Science program in 2018 and now works on projects such as content analytics and experimentation on the Microsoft Edge news feed.
Michal talks about how the first job might not be the dream job and to trust the process of career progression.
Questions for the host or Michal? Please email us at alumnipodcast@springboard.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Show Purpose
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Life After Tech Bootcamp. Special thanks to Timothy from last week for sharing his insights on job hunting and discussing his own journey.
Role of Personal Stories in Learning
00:00:25
Speaker
I believe that whether you are a tech bootcamp alum currently enrolled in a tech bootcamp or exploring various career paths, there is something truly special about hearing someone's story. You can relate to it, learn from it, or both. It never
00:00:43
Speaker
hurts to spend the time learning about somebody.
Listener Engagement and Future Episode Plans
00:00:46
Speaker
I also wanted to highlight that if you have any questions relevant to this podcast, please email me at alumnipodcast at springboard.com. I know it can be intimidating to reach out to someone via LinkedIn, and multiple people may also have the same question as you do. So I'm happy to be a middle person. I'll be doing a special episode later in the season where I and some of the previous guests answer your questions.
Mihau's Career Journey: From Academia to Consulting
00:01:12
Speaker
Today's guest is someone I'm very excited for you to meet. He offers a great perspective on being patient while navigating a career path to land the job you want. So with that, I'd like to introduce Mihau.
00:01:26
Speaker
Mihau is a senior data scientist at Microsoft, but not before working at other companies such as NBC Universal, Facebook, and Deloitte. He completed the springboard data science program in 2018 and now works on projects such as content analytics and experimentation on Microsoft Edge newsfeed. Mihau, welcome. How are you today? Hi, I'm doing all right. Thank you for having me.
00:01:56
Speaker
My pleasure. I am, again, so excited to have you here. We had an amazing pre-interview and let's just get started. Before you got involved with Springboard, where were you? What were you doing with your life? Yeah, a couple of interesting things I would say. So, well, my career journey started after, well,
00:02:23
Speaker
as it starts for most people after graduation. I graduated from university with a degree in applied physics, and I worked as a radiation physicist for CERN, which is considered the largest physics laboratory in the world. That was a great pleasure and honor to be here.
00:02:51
Speaker
However, three years passed, my period there, which was a scholarship, came to an end and I needed to decide where to move next. I decided not to stay in academia. I felt like pursuing a PhD wasn't for me and decided to do what many, I think, people who decide to quit academia
00:03:20
Speaker
to do, I decided to move to consulting. I moved to Accenture. And this is where I start slowly thinking about what I actually wanted to do in life after this whole long period of radiation physics.
Discovering Data Science and Education Choices
00:03:41
Speaker
So consulting is a very interesting field, I would say,
00:03:48
Speaker
It brings people from different works of life, if I can put it that way. Different skill sets are welcome. And I think as long as you can prove that you have problem-solving attitude,
00:04:16
Speaker
you know, how to talk to people. I think you're the right material to become a consultant. I know it's maybe like a little bit of an exaggeration here, but nevertheless, there's always a project that I believe you can fit to. So while being a consultant, I try different projects, doing trainings for big companies and like slowly, little by little, I start like,
00:04:45
Speaker
gaining more interest into data analytics. At that time I knew very little about data, uh, way less than I know today, obviously. At some point I started to realize like, Hey, like this, those data products are like very interesting. What is it? And then I got introduced into power BI and that was like, kind of like, you know, where I.
00:05:08
Speaker
felt like maybe I don't want to be in academia, but I definitely would like to continue using my analytical brain or like the analytical side of me, maybe in a different context, not being in the lab, but definitely crunching numbers and analyzing data. I just realized that that was the best part. That was the part that I liked the most about my previous experience. I knew a little about coding at the time.
00:05:37
Speaker
I would say I knew zero about coding. As much as I like those analytics tools like Tableau or Power BI, I felt like there's more out there. This is the time when I first learned about this new profession called data scientist. There was this article from Harvard talking about the new sexiest profession.
00:06:07
Speaker
After reading about it and like, you know, it's still like trying to understand what it actually means to be a data scientist. Is that just like a new way of calling a statistician? Uh, is this something that I can do? What are like the gaps in my, in my skillset that I need to cover to, to be able to, to transition to this field. And like after doing some research, I realized, okay, this is the time to switch. This is the time that I finally know what I want to do next in life.
00:06:37
Speaker
but I don't know exactly how to do it. And this is when springboard came into my life. I decided not to go back to regular brig and mortar school. I felt like at this point I already had my higher education degrees. I wanted to do something that is, would say a little bit shorter and at the same time I could continue
00:07:05
Speaker
continue working. So I think that would be in the nutshell how I got from where I was before in life to springboard.
Challenges and Growth in Career Transition
00:07:17
Speaker
That's an incredible story. It sounds like you sort of fell down a rabbit hole a little bit. You were discovering how to crunch numbers and perhaps it's
00:07:30
Speaker
correct to say that you wouldn't have discovered this profession without having gone into consulting and gotten some of the projects you did? Yeah, definitely. I think when you go to college or university, you think this is my profession for life. At least here in America, often people go to college later in life. But I think in Europe, often it is considered that you choose your career path very early on and you stick to it.
00:08:00
Speaker
So I think there's more of, how to say it, expectation or like maybe there's more shame of changing the career later in life, being a little bit of a late bloomer in that regard. So I definitely had like some
00:08:23
Speaker
I had to like work it out on a personal level to realize like, okay, I was in this great facility working with all those smart people and now I'm like somewhere very different and I'm doing projects that are like very different from what I was doing. However, that was a conscious decision. That was my decision. No one pushed me to quit academia.
00:08:51
Speaker
It was just like a good transition period where I could, where, when I could figure out what exactly I wanted to do. And I think like, as much as, you know, consulting can be intimidating being, um, being able to work, being, to being exposed to many different projects, many different companies, the clients you work with.
00:09:16
Speaker
is the best way you can do to actually realize what you like and even more important, what you don't like. Because I think we often focus on what we like and we forget about things that we don't like. And then suddenly they pop out later in life and realize, oh, I didn't realize that I didn't want to do that. I wanted to do that, but I didn't want to have this part. So I think for me, that was very important that I didn't want to
00:09:44
Speaker
do the lab work that I was doing as a scientist, but I definitely liked the analytical part. And this was this kind of breakthrough I had in my life, like epiphany of some sort.
00:09:59
Speaker
That's an incredible self-realization. I mean, two of them being able to kind of stand up to your cultural norms of sticking to what you picked out. And then two, really discovering what you're good at. I think a lot of people, I know myself personally, really took a few years figuring that out. So
00:10:21
Speaker
would you be able to elaborate on any specific things you did to perhaps break through cultural norms and be okay with that? And also how you were able to discover your likes and dislikes or did it just did everything just kind of come naturally? No, no, it's definitely it was hard work. There were like times when I was sent to a project that
00:10:52
Speaker
was very much something opposite from what I expected to do and difficult clients. And this is like the moment when you also realize like, okay, try to think what else I could be doing right now or like what else I would like to be doing in the future so I can avoid this situation.
00:11:18
Speaker
Another thing, like, as I said, shame and guilt is a big part of our culture. And I read like some stories just by accident, randomly reading newspaper every day about some people who changed their careers later in life. And let's say someone became a famous psychologist
00:11:45
Speaker
someone wrote their first book at the age of 50 and so on and so on. So me being there in my late 20s, early 30s around that time, I still have plenty of time. I don't have to feel bad about it that I decided to do something else and I still didn't figure it out properly.
00:12:09
Speaker
I think this is very important. I think this would be one of the top messages I have to everyone who's listening to understand, don't think about what other people think about you. This is very important. If you need more time to figure it out, if it doesn't come in a day, it's fine. It's fine. Just try different things. Read about different things, different professions, different skill sets.
00:12:40
Speaker
At some point, there will be this voice in your head like, yeah, this is something that I want to invest my time and money. If you want to spend money on something, that means that you care about it. This is like another way to realize.
00:12:57
Speaker
I had some savings and I could either go to Bali and do some scuba diving, which I love, or I could invest in springboard course. So that was like two options I had. I had savings either for the amazing trip.
00:13:15
Speaker
that I would love or invest in my career and do it later in life. So that's when I realized that actually I care about data science and I care about becoming a data scientist. That is a really interesting light note that you decided to invest in yourself and your education further and not go on this
Learning Strategies and Job Search Tips
00:13:38
Speaker
trip. But I hope, you know, we'll get to where you are now, but I hope you have gone on that trip since at least a couple of times over.
00:13:46
Speaker
So moving forward, you've decided that, you know, you want to spend your money on springboard instead of going to Aruba. I would love to know what was your experience like in the course? Were there any things that stuck out that really helped you succeed? So, um, yeah, that's a, that's a very good question. I think like, you know, one of the,
00:14:10
Speaker
problems that I encountered early on in the course, where again, like the personal level, I think generally the curriculum was great. I really liked it the way it was structured. I got a very good mentor and, you know, generally everything was great. But there was also like the element of me,
00:14:35
Speaker
that is perfectionist, that I wanted like very much to do everything, learn everything. And I felt like if I read every single article or like if I do every single task that was in the course, that will help me to succeed. And of course, I would say probably 80% of that is true, but there's like this 20% that I realized
00:15:02
Speaker
that first of all, I cannot rush things. You have to take time to absorb knowledge. You have to take time to basically, yeah, it has to marinate in your head. I don't know. I cannot find a better word for that. It's like when you cook, I like cooking. So I know sometimes when I make soup, it tastes better the next day. And I think this is a good metaphor for learning as well.
00:15:31
Speaker
sleep on it and then you wake up the next day, you might have better ideas. So I remember like at some point in the course, there was this, uh, option to pause it for some time, which I loved a lot and I realized, okay, I need to take a break, like a few weeks break before I resume. And also led me again, ask myself, why am I doing it?
00:15:58
Speaker
because like I'm not trying to become an expert on Python. I want to learn Python to the level that I can use it in my day to day job. So these are like few realizations just to like, you know, you definitely need to stick to your goal, but like you also have to make sure that you try not to overdo it. It's like, you know, pulling a muscle. If you want to become
00:16:25
Speaker
good at sports, you need to make sure that the way you train is good for your body as well. So I think that was very important for me to realize. No rush. I will get the job sometime in the future. It will not be tomorrow. It might not even be the same year. It might be a year later. But pace yourself.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah, I love that metaphor. Sometimes that soup tastes better the next day and definitely something I can relate to. I love being perfect. Well, let me let me rephrase that. I am not perfect. Nobody is, but it is a constant struggle of letting yourself make mistakes, backtrack and maybe
00:17:09
Speaker
hone in on what you really are good at and letting, like you said, with Python, you didn't need to be an expert in Python. You needed it to perform in the types of roles and functions that were necessary. So I think that is a really valuable lesson. So perfectionism, it never really suits you. That's something that, you know,
00:17:36
Speaker
One needs to realize when it occurs that like, what am I doing here? Am I learning a new skill or am I trying to, I don't know, like, like prove to the world that I can be the best at it. So yeah, these are two different goals. Yes. So speaking of learning, was there anything outside of the course that you did to prepare yourself for your career now?
00:18:04
Speaker
So, I mean, outside the course, I would say like definitely one of the most important things because like, I think like there was plenty of, of, of material to study within the curriculum. I obviously like, you know, like reading about things outside curriculum. That was great. But as, as I mentioned earlier, I was already pretty saturated. Uh, I think the very important thing is to start early on.
00:18:33
Speaker
on job search or like, for me, it was something that I didn't feel very comfortable with. This is like the skill. This is another muscle that you need to train a lot. Being okay with asking for, uh, you know, short interview or like short conversation called emailing and so on. So for me, that was something that came with time. Initially there was a lot of discomfort. I don't know. I was like thinking like, Oh,
00:19:02
Speaker
It might not like me and things like that. Those little demons that are like sitting on your shoulder. We were encouraged to do it early on and well, maybe that was this like element of perfectionist. I was good. I tried to follow to the tee and I think that helped me a lot to get some referrals early on.
00:19:28
Speaker
And that is another thing. We are all in the same boat. So reaching out to other professionals is not a sign of weakness. Just do it smartly, in a smart way. They will tell you how to do it. As long as you did a little bit of research, people generally will not eat you alive for sending them a message or email asking for a short conversation.
00:19:58
Speaker
Of course. And that's really funny about the name. I do feel for those people, they're probably just working so hard. However, at the same time, yes, I agree. You do need to put some care. And when a random stranger reaches out to you, it's very easy to ignore them. But if they bring some sort of good reason to talk to me how or vice versa,
00:20:25
Speaker
You know, that goes a long way. I definitely, I don't, I doubt I get as many emails as you do, but when I do, if somebody's gone to my school or find something within my history that is relevant, I'm more likely to reach out. But I'm curious when you were reaching out, was there any particular question that you like to ask? I would start that.
00:20:51
Speaker
I tried to be relatively honest about my intentions. Maybe that was something that made me feel a little bit more comfortable about it. It's maybe like, you know, being more scientific about it. Science is about facts. So again, I wanted to be very factual here. I usually would say like, you know, like I, I tried to be very specific that like I'm interested in the company. I'm interested in the company.
00:21:18
Speaker
in the culture and whatever like tips I can get from the person. And I think maybe it sounds a little bit vague, but at the same time, I think like, you know, obviously, again, we don't have to pretend that we're trying to become someone's best friend. So I think like, you know, and the other way around when I receive emails these days, I also prefer like, you know, if I see like someone is like very honest, like, Hey, I'm like, I just like would like to connect
00:21:48
Speaker
I'm looking for a job and, and, and, you know, oh yeah, yeah. So I think like there's no magic formula. I would say either someone has time and is willing to respond or they have no time or they don't read the messages. I wouldn't read too much into it. Again, this is, this was my problem. So I'm like mentioning that not because.
00:22:14
Speaker
I just because like, you know, I'm just saying that like this, this happened to me. So if you're like listening to this and you find that that resonates with you, please don't judge yourself. If you don't get any answers that maybe you said something unless you, there was something very cringe. I think, you know,
00:22:35
Speaker
There is nothing to it. Just people are either busy or they have time. I don't think people will judge you too much on the way you ask question. They might judge you. Yeah. As I said, like if you, if you didn't scrape off the name of the previous person you wrote to that's like, that that's a different story. But other than that, don't think twice, just send it.
00:22:55
Speaker
Absolutely. You have nothing to lose except for maybe just somebody not getting back to you. But it is a very flattering thing. Like I don't think anybody will ever receive an email saying they want to get to know you, connect and think, wow, I'm so offended by this. So I completely agree.
Interview Insights and Application Strategies
00:23:15
Speaker
So you were saying that people you reached out to helped you get referrals later for the job hunt. So let's talk about you hunting for a job. And when we did our pre interview, you gave a great analogy that I use and I'd love for you to bring it up now.
00:23:33
Speaker
Oh, the dating analogy. Yes. Yes. Yes. I learned that from my friend who also worked as a physicist, as a CERN, who moved to consulting first. So like, you know, I follow her steps religiously. We also were born very close to each other. So it's almost like, you know, like half sister. She's also almost as a, like a half sister to me. So yeah. She said to me, Nihao, remember,
00:24:03
Speaker
Like, you know, speaking to an employer or like, you know, interviewer is a little bit like dating. We, we go there, we go prepared, but like, you know, they judge us. We judge them. We try to show our best self, but sometimes there's no chemistry and we move on and we try to, you know, we go on another date. So I think I loved it so much. First of all, there's like one important thing
00:24:32
Speaker
thing here that we sometimes forget about it. Interview is a two-way street so you know as much as is important to go to be prepared and obviously do a little bit of research also we have to understand that like when we speak to an interviewer we also can have our thoughts about the process, the company, the culture and
00:25:04
Speaker
If we don't think this is the right bid, it's better to move on. I agree. Yeah. I remember one interview I had the founder.
00:25:16
Speaker
The person wanted me to be the only designer, which that wasn't the right fit for me. So there was that, but then also she spent the whole interview talking about herself and not really about the product. And it was a little strange. And I hope that, you know, she still has had success, but it, yes, I completely agree that you should really be sussing out if this job is right for you as well.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yeah, I had this example when I interviewed with Uber and Uber asked me Uber questions. And then I interviewed with another company, big tech company, and they also asked me Uber questions. And I was like kind of, you know, at least with Uber, I kind of got sense what kind of problems I might work with. At least like, you know, that was a little bit closer to day-to-day jobs.
00:26:17
Speaker
But yeah, with the other company that like, it was kind of like, you know, why are you asking me Uber questions? Like, could you, couldn't you just give me like sell example from your old day to day job? That was a bit of a red flag for me. I think this is very important because sometimes you think this is your dream job, a dream company, and you might
00:26:44
Speaker
be a little bit blind when doing the interview process, you just want to land the job. And I understand, especially early on in the career, that might be the only goal, but later on, I think it's important to pay attention to those little red flags.
00:27:02
Speaker
I agree because you at least need to spend a year at this company, hopefully longer if it's a good fit. I would love to understand a bit more about why that's a red flag because I think you gave a really good explanation on that. And I think some people who are a little bit more newer in their careers, they're not quite as familiar
00:27:24
Speaker
with the types of red flags they should look for in the interview process. So I'd love to hear your breakdown on why them asking Uber questions at a non-Uber company is a red flag. Yeah. So I think like, you know, first of all, I would say they should test if you're a right fit for the job. And I think like, you know,
00:27:49
Speaker
For me, if you just Google, let's say, data science questions, and you find those over examples, which again, are great examples, and I practiced over questions either when I was practicing my analytical skills and problem solving. But at the same time, first of all, I feel like someone didn't do their homework and prepare the right questions, like write data sets. Second of all,
00:28:17
Speaker
How can you have a conversation around that data? So let's say you solve those problems perfectly. After that, there should be some sort of follow-up. So the follow-up could be, is this something that you work in your day-to-day? Well, obviously, it was an over-question. This company has nothing to do.
00:28:39
Speaker
with right chairs. So these are like things that I think are very important to understand the culture, how they operate. And it starts with the interview. It starts how they treat the candidate. It starts with the recruitment process. I think it's, it's a little bit of like a sloppy approach not to, not to have questionnaire that
00:29:03
Speaker
reflect on what the company is about. Definitely there are more red flags, but that will be related to this specific example. Certainly. No, but I think that's a really interesting example that some people might not pick up on. And I think it's always good to just share what to look out for. Everybody just comes from a different background and a different set of knowledge.
00:29:30
Speaker
With this being said, so you had this one awkward interview, but you ended up at some pretty cool companies, but I would love to understand what your job hunt was like after, well, you said you started job hunting during the course, but what was that official job hunt like with Springboard? So definitely, as I said, they ask you to start sending those resumes
00:29:58
Speaker
early on in the course and you might feel like, Oh, I'm not ready. It's like, you know, too early. And I think it's never too early. Maybe one thing to keep in mind, if they're like some companies that you especially love, don't choose them as your first target, like, you know, target them later in the interview process.
00:30:21
Speaker
because interviewing is, you know, it's kind of a muscle that you need to train and you will bomb your first interviews for sure. Uh, there's this fear factor or anxiety factor that like later with like doing, let's say three, four interviews, you will feel more comfortable, but you don't want to be that person when you interview with your dream, dream company. So that is, that is one thing like, you know, try to send,
00:30:52
Speaker
resumes early on. Second of all, like quantity versus quality. I'm on the fence here a little bit because obviously we try to send as many as possible, but like also try not to send mindlessly. Yes. Definitely have a template. Yes. Have like, you know, try to save this template and try to reuse it. So sometimes there are like certain, certain companies that, you know, you can use the same resume for them because they kind of meet the same profile.
00:31:22
Speaker
But at the same time, like do some statistics, especially if you follow the springboard track that is related to analytics or data science, just open a spreadsheet in Excel and put every job position and track it. You know, when did you send the resume? Was there any response? Was it negative or positive? And if you start seeing that, Oh, I'm not getting anything, then go back to your career coach and discuss if there's like anything wrong with your resume.
00:31:52
Speaker
change things, see if that works, and so on and so on. So I think that was my strategy to try to use those different templates. Definitely send as many as I can, but not to do it mindlessly, trying to optimize it. And again, I started doing it in 2018. Nowadays, we have chat GPT. So there are a lot of things that you can do with one click. Please rewrite this resume following.
00:32:21
Speaker
the job description that you can just paste it. I had to do everything manually back then. So you can optimize the process. Again, don't forget to think about the job that you're applying to and keep a record of every single thing. Copy, paste the description. Some were saved because sometimes that was another thing. Sometimes they might delete the job posting from a website.
00:32:51
Speaker
And then they call you for the interview and you don't even remember what was the job about. And that's a big no-no. So be prepared with that. Yeah, I think that completely makes sense. I loved your advice on the analysis. Keep track of all the jobs you're applying for and see what's working and what's not. Was there anything that you found that wasn't working that you had to adjust? That was actually harder to tell what wasn't working.
00:33:20
Speaker
I definitely like, you know, I think one, one of the problems that, uh, I spotted in, in, in my resume and I often see it in other people resumes when they ask me to like for some advice, it's like, don't, don't make it too long. People are not interested in your entire life. There are many templates. They're like so many different templates. And if you're applying in a different country than United States, the rules might be different, but.
00:33:50
Speaker
Overall, I think no one needs to know about your hobbies. I think this is not a necessary thing. There's an interview for that to figure it out. That you speak 10 languages, great, good for you. But I'm just saying to optimize the space. For those who are in their early days, career days, sometimes it's the other problem. You might have nothing to put in your resume.
00:34:15
Speaker
And again, you can work with your career coach, what can be an very interesting experience. But then like once you start progressing in life, people have this problem, uh, with parting with things that are no longer needed. It's like, you know, we like hoarding things. We also like hoarding experiences. So, you know, like I was a vice president of some school, uh, club alliance, whatever.
00:34:43
Speaker
That's great, but like, you know, now you're like your late twenties, early thirties, forties, whatever. Like that doesn't matter anymore. Like something that recruiters can scan through very quickly is very important. And another thing I would say, remember the first person that is reading your resume is usually a recruiter. So you should like optimize it for a recruiter. Use the keywords. That's like, that's like, that's, that was a big game changer for me. Now I just recall that.
00:35:12
Speaker
Try to use the language that you see in the job offer. So, you know, like it's not necessary. It's not the creative writing contest. If you see those skills are matching, but like they're like they're.
00:35:27
Speaker
the naming convention is a little bit different. Use the naming convention from the job post. Great points. Yes, I recall a resume that I saw me coming from fashion going to UX.
00:35:44
Speaker
working in fashion somewhat relevant, but this woman had 10 years of experience and for some of her jobs, she just put the job in the title. She didn't even put bullet points because she optimized her space with her UX internships. So I thought that was a really creative way to show that you didn't have gaps in your resume, but to your point, nobody needs to know that you can sew a men's jacket if you need to design a user interface.
00:36:13
Speaker
So I absolutely agree. It is very hard losing, well not losing, but cutting out skills that aren't relevant. Yeah, I think like some of it comes from an idea that we watch a lot of movies and there's some like stories that like someone saw something in the resume and they liked it and because of that they got the job.
00:36:40
Speaker
Unfortunately, I love great stories and I know they happen, but here we're working with statistics and probability. So increase your chances to be seen for your skills. Definitely. Well, clearly all of those things work because you did get a job. So would you love, would you like to share what your first job was out of the springboard?
Professional Growth: Deloitte and NBC News
00:37:04
Speaker
Yes. So after springboard, I could say that I didn't move that far from where I started just before springboard because I moved from Accenture to Deloitte, which is Accenture's competitor. And I wasn't super happy about it because I kind of wanted to leave consulting at this point, but
00:37:26
Speaker
The difference was at this time, I was hired to work on data science projects. So I was a data science consultant. And nowadays when I look back, I realized that was such a big changer because actually it opened my career. It helped me to land my next job with the experience I got back then working on those different projects and working with a group or like being part of a group that
00:37:55
Speaker
had some upscaling related to data science, people who were only deployed on data science projects, and so on and so on. So overall, I think I made also a lot of good friends who later on moved to different tech companies working as data engineers and data scientists. So I also expanded my network naturally, not only
00:38:21
Speaker
by, you know, knowing those people, but becoming friends with them. So those are very, very strong connections. Sometimes the first job we land, we might be very impatient. We might think this is, this is wrong. This is like, you know, this is where I don't want to be. Why, why, why? Sometimes you have to start somewhere. And I like to say like beggars are not choosers. If there's like, you know, if you add, you know, at this point of your career that
00:38:49
Speaker
You still need to prove to the world that you have certain skills and that you're hireable. Then again, if there are no, no, no red flags, just, just, just, just go with the job that is offered to you. And later on you will land the job at the company that you always dreamed of, hopefully.
00:39:15
Speaker
Absolutely. And while yes, it is fustering to kind of go back to something in your case, consulting that you didn't want to get into, it doesn't seem like it was a complete step backwards. You still had a little bit of movement forward. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, as I said, like, you know, I think it was good for me. I think it is a great company. Uh,
00:39:42
Speaker
Depends, obviously, it's a big company. So as with every big company, I was very lucky to work with people that were fun to work with. I learned a lot of new skills from them. That was also my friend who told me about the dating analogy. She still works there. So definitely, it's not like something that was necessarily a step backwards.
00:40:12
Speaker
It was more like maybe mentally, I wanted to work in a different capacity. Being a consultant requires certain availability that's probably changed after COVID. But before COVID, I was like, I was nonstop flying somewhere. So that was something that I didn't want to do anymore. I completely understand that.
00:40:34
Speaker
I think it's exciting in the beginning. You get all those hotel points, but after a while, I don't know how you felt exactly, but I like just to be home now. But moving forward, you have gone on to do other things. So after Deloitte, I'd love to have you tell the story about your next job.
00:40:57
Speaker
So my next job, I was immediately after Deloitte, I moved to NBC News and that was like interesting because I really didn't want to apply to NBC News. Not because I have something against NBC News as a great company, but I was a little bit frustrated. I was already COVID times and I was like kind of like frustrated because I actually
00:41:26
Speaker
Uh, like the response rate before Deloitte for me was much higher than like during Deloitte. So it was like kind of maybe it was because of COVID. I don't know, but something happened to me that like, I couldn't land any interview and, and, and, and I was like, Oh, like I don't want to do anymore. And, you know, my, my, my partner Zach was, uh,
00:41:52
Speaker
Encouraging me to like keep going and then I told him about NBC News that and he's a big fan of like back then of the show of Rachel Maddow show And he was like, you know, no, please please I want you to work for NBC I just want to get to Rachel Maddow. Yeah And I was like at some point I was like, okay, I'm gonna apply it
00:42:17
Speaker
But I want you to write my cover letter because I don't have energy to do it. And I will prove to you that, you know, they will never call me back. So I did hit send, like, you know, I took a screenshot of that, you know, I did it and so on. And there was like, I think a month or two past and I was like, you see, you see, that was, that was a waste of my time, waste of my, like, you know, half an hour of like going through the application process. But
00:42:46
Speaker
A few days after that, they did call me back and a few interviews later I landed the job. I became the first data scientist in NBC News Digital. Sometimes we don't know what is written in our destiny and I'm very happy that I landed this job. I worked with a great team being the first data scientist, came with a lot of
00:43:12
Speaker
stress and pressure on my shoulders. But at the same time, I finally moved out of consulting and that was a big success. So again, it did happen. It happened later in time, but it did happen. So patience, again, patience is important. Yes. I would love to hear from your perspective, the differences between working as a consultant versus working in-house.
00:43:41
Speaker
I would say the difference, the main difference is that if you don't like your team or your project, that you cannot easily change it. So like working in the house, that's why I was talking about red flags because I feel like red flags in consulting might mean very little because it all depends on the client that you work with.
00:44:05
Speaker
in has, the difference is that you kind of work on the same project over and over. Obviously, we're talking generally speaking, there are different projects that you work on, but it's the same team, the same kind of product or service.
00:44:25
Speaker
there might be way less movement than in comparison to consulting jobs that, you know, there might be three projects that last few months, and then you change completely the client, the project, everything. But these are, I think that was for me, the only drawback of working in-house that maybe sometimes missed.
Consulting vs. In-House Roles
00:44:50
Speaker
The benefits are like you get to know the product better that you work with. You work with the team of people that become close to you. You can trust each other and you don't, we will not part in like few months and you will never see each other again. So that is definitely a big thing. You can grow in your role and you can definitely, um,
00:45:18
Speaker
come with ideas that, you know, if they're good ideas, you will definitely see the fruits of them and you'll be the one that might actually benefit from it because you are like kind of like forming your own environment. So all those changes will like one day benefit you as well versus like, you know, being on a project, you had some good idea, they might keep you
00:45:49
Speaker
for a little bit longer, but at some point you will move to the next gig. Yeah, it sounds like it's for you a lot more satisfying with the constant growth and getting to know the product really well. Yes, it also depends what you like.
00:46:12
Speaker
Sometimes when you work as a consultant or a contractor that might be the same title, it also comes with different perks, different like a review process and all those other things that, you know, like they look very different where you get your feedback from and how you position yourself for success. Certainly. And it,
00:46:40
Speaker
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you had a short stint at Facebook before landing at Microsoft. Yes. So that was like within the Deloitte part. I was like, basically that was my engagement. That was probably like almost a year long, which basically felt like I was part of, I worked at Facebook in a contractor capacity while being employed at Deloitte.
00:47:07
Speaker
Oh, interesting. That's another, I've never worked in consulting, but I never realized they could contract you out kind of like a recruiter would in a contract way. Yeah. So that, that, like, that is another flavor that might take, as I said, like sometimes the engagement might be a little bit longer, um, which is also good in a way that, you know, and you just work with the same people for a longer period of time.
00:47:37
Speaker
you're not full-time employees. So the difference is that at the end of the day, you report to someone else, like you report to your client, but like at the end of the day that, you know, you might be rolled off like in a day and pretend that it never happened.
00:47:59
Speaker
So that could be a good or bad thing depending on the red or green flags you're experiencing. But now you're at Microsoft and this is where you are now.
Current Role at Microsoft and Future Aspirations
00:48:11
Speaker
And I just am so amazed by the wealth of your experience. I would love to know where you kind of see yourself going now. I think being at Microsoft right now,
00:48:25
Speaker
Not only right now, but generally, like, you know, this is a good, good place for growth. If you want to work for tech, the investments in artificial intelligence and the growth within that field that is happening right now at Microsoft is amazing. I definitely.
00:48:44
Speaker
don't see myself going anywhere anytime soon. And it was like growing. I think like, you know, so right now I work as individual contributor, which is great because I like kind of like crunching the numbers, but I also feel at some point stepping more towards managerial role will be a natural progression. Don't know if I'm ready yet for this step.
00:49:14
Speaker
but also understand like at some point building your own team and managing your team versus like doing the actual data science work might be also interesting. So yeah, we'll see. We'll see. It's been my.
00:49:30
Speaker
second year at Microsoft. So I still want to be here for like the first see the future. I think that's incredible. And the point you've reached now looking at managerial rules potentially is a huge step. And definitely another learning opportunity in managing people. Yeah, hopefully. So very exciting.
00:49:55
Speaker
So I was about to say we are coming up on time and I would love to know, do you have any lasting advice or tidbits that we didn't cover that you'd like to share today? Yeah, I would say just like, you know, um, career, there's like a lot of randomness in, in, in the, in, uh, in the job hunting process. And we should be aware of that.
00:50:19
Speaker
There are a lot of variables that we don't know about. So whatever happens to you, if you're not able to land your first job, uh, you get a lot of rejections. Definitely work with a career coach and try to improve your resume, but like, don't put too much blame on yourself. There's like, there's so many things that can influence the decision.
00:50:42
Speaker
So I think it's important to keep it in mind and focus also on other aspects of life other than our job. Because at the end of the day, our job is not everything. That's just like one of the facets of every day. Absolutely. There's always scuba diving and Aruba. For example, very important.
00:51:06
Speaker
Very, very important. Well, Michal, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story. Are you open to listeners reaching out on LinkedIn? Yes, of course. Like if you have any career advice or any other question, feel free to reach me on LinkedIn. You can find me if you type M-I-C-H-A-L. That is how you spell my name, Michal.
00:51:35
Speaker
And my last name is Chapski, C-Z-A-P-S-K-I. Fantastic. Well, for everyone listening, you can certainly reach out to me how via LinkedIn, or if you have any other questions for him or myself, or additionally, if you'd like to be featured as a guest, please email me at alumni podcast at springboard.com.