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#9 My Friend the Charismatic Preacher - Shea Takazono
33 Plays6 months ago
Shea Takazono and his wife are the lead pastors of The Testimony, a church community based in Waipahu, HI.
Keegan and Shea discuss their time in Bible college, charismatic vs. traditional church cultures, leadership failures, and how to create space for different expressions of faith.
Note from Keegan: This one starts a bit abruptly as we had recorded about 30mins earlier and had to re-record due to some tech issues. The first file got corrupted (sorry Shea!), and we were only able to use the second recording.
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Transcript
Intro
00:00:12
Keegan Drummond
Okay. um
00:00:13
Shea
and
00:00:15
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
Bible College Chapel Dynamics
00:00:16
Keegan Drummond
Debriefing. We were talking about Hawaii churches. So yeah, I guess I want to go back to your time at Bible college. um We meet and, you know, ah perhaps you're sort of touching on that tension that is existent in charismatic churches already because we meet because i was leading the, our university had chapels and they had chapel teams leading these chapels um each week so basically um i was a quote chapel leader who was organizing um thursday morning chapels uh every four weeks and you were on the team leading this and um i guess um
00:00:40
Shea
Yeah.
00:01:01
Keegan Drummond
I was very particular about how things ought to be ah in these chapels. um That's no secret. um and And so that that's kind of how we meet.
00:01:15
Keegan Drummond
And we have this ah sort of interaction um in Bible college where, um I don't know, I felt like there was something.
00:01:27
Keegan Drummond
we You and I had this conversation around preaching or something I don't know. I don't think it was necessarily confrontational, but I was just kind of like, I know there were some confrontational moments on that team just because I felt like people were just sort of um um a bit like
00:01:49
Keegan Drummond
loopy. I don't know.
00:01:50
Shea
Yeah, no, there definitely were confrontational moments.
00:01:50
Keegan Drummond
not particularly
00:01:53
Shea
I had all across the board for every reason under the sun, not just the charismatic stuff. But yeah, go go ahead and continue.
00:02:04
Keegan Drummond
Oh, no. that was I mean, yeah, I guess that was sort of it. I mean, it was kind of interesting. There were some interesting moments. we we had There was drama around people ad-libbing during the songs. i didn't care for some particular ad-libs. I didn't like the theology behind ad-libs. That was kind of ah ah ah probably ah bit of a moment that we all kind of remember.
00:02:26
Keegan Drummond
um I think there was some drama around how...
00:02:26
Shea
Yes.
00:02:29
Keegan Drummond
uh women were dressing not me not me pointing that out but other women pointing that out and then asking me to deal with it and then it's like i'm not dealing with that i'm not dealing with that um i'm not doing that um yeah i guess that was kind of interesting i mean so already uh i guess you're running into these types of um um uh maybe maybe buffers you felt like i was being confrontational though
00:02:56
Shea
No, no, no. i I felt like in general, because you were the leader the first year.
00:03:00
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, yeah. And then you were my leader like two years later the next year something like that.
00:03:01
Shea
then, yeah, it was the next year.
00:03:05
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:06
Shea
and I wasn't supposed to be the leader. was supposed to be someone else. And then he moved out of nowhere to like Pennsylvania.
00:03:12
Keegan Drummond
Oh, I recall that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:03:13
Shea
And then i was like, oh, and it told them, i don't want to do this. I was like, I'm not equipped for this. And they're like, you got this, bro. was like,
00:03:23
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, you did a good job.
00:03:23
Shea
Okay, I'll lead.
00:03:24
Keegan Drummond
You did a good job.
00:03:25
Shea
um But I think actually the the that time in my life was probably the time in Bible college where I actually experienced the most growth.
00:03:38
Shea
And it was because of the chapel and it was because of... um It was such an interesting thing because our Bible college started with a certain like denomination and then became non-denominational. So then all of the students came from all these different churches and backgrounds.
00:03:56
Shea
And think that's where a lot of the issues came up because now with people from different traditions and different churches and different cultures, and different philosophies of ministry coming together to do ah to do a chapel service.
00:04:10
Shea
And so I think the chapel team meetings became like this thing. They were intended to be a melting pot, but kind of became a battleground but for philosophy ministry philosophies.
00:04:20
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
Mentorship and Leadership Growth
00:04:23
Shea
And so that was... like that was a super valuable experience for me because i remember coming in as a very, like one of the youngest people and like, I remember only upperclassmen were supposed to be chapel leaders and I wasn't that.
00:04:39
Shea
And so I was like, I don't want to do this. And then the the school leadership was like, no, we believe in you, you can do it. I was like, oh my gosh, this is going to be terrible. And then I remember you being um the former chapel leader, and I knew I was going to do things a lot differently.
00:04:54
Shea
um But I remember the one of the best things, like the one of the most impactful things in my whole college experience, Keegan, was actually my relationship with you in that chapel, in that chapel group.
00:05:07
Shea
Because what I saw was like you ah you had this mindset of like, oh my gosh, this kid needs help. I'm going to help him.
00:05:19
Shea
And then you helped me. And um what I really appreciated was like, even though I did things a different way that maybe you you definitely would not have done it or you know ah made the choices that I made, you championed me as a leader.
00:05:35
Shea
And you gave me your input and your advice, um always to build me up. And i remember like, I was so stressed about chapels because I just felt so under equipped.
00:05:46
Shea
And what gave me so much comfort was actually like, you checked in on me and you kind of took it upon yourself to mentor me in that. ah And I remember like, I remember thinking like, man, I respect this guy so much. And like the things that you said to me, like there's conversations, like even today, bro, oh when I get stressed out about church and I start like getting anxious, ah there was one moment that you had You had pulled me on the side after chapel didn't go the way that I wanted it to.
00:06:20
Shea
And I felt so junk about it. And I was like, oh, man, I didn't do good. And you said you told me something that you were learning in in one of your classes or someone had told you and you said, hey, like a lot of ah a lot of pastors get too stressed out because they just take themselves too seriously.
00:06:39
Shea
and you're like, hey, don't worry about it. You're taking yourself too seriously right now. like You're not that important to what God is doing on the earth. like This doesn't define you, essentially.
00:06:51
Shea
And that impacted me so much. And so I began to like realize, I'm like, oh man like you know and think early on, I was like, oh, charismatic versus people that are like you know part of a bigger church and like blah, blah, blah.
00:07:05
Shea
you know Very, like you know what is that? Binary terms. And I realized, I'm like, dude, that's not the truth. That's not reality. ah This guy is championing me when I'm making decisions he wouldn't make.
00:07:18
Shea
when I'm doing things or maybe probably a theology he disagrees with. ah And then he's over here like trying to raise me up as a leader. And I realized like, oh, I need to not, I need to not think that my way is the only way or the best way.
00:07:35
Shea
And I need to listen to other people.
00:07:39
Shea
But I had a different experience with you than I had with others. And it's because you, your care was for me as a person rather than trying to fight for what you wanted to see in chapel. And so after that, I, I remember like, I don't know if I did this a lot, but I remembered I had this strong desire to seek out your input on everything because like, man, like, you know, you have more experience and, and there's things that I can definitely learn from.
00:08:10
Shea
ah
00:08:12
Shea
So that, that was helpful to me.
00:08:12
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:08:12
Keegan Drummond
I mean, I, I, I remember that conversation a little bit and I mean, don't know. I think, yeah, I, I, I think I took myself pretty seriously. I, I thought quite highly of myself, um, in ministry. I mean I think I've highly of myself all the time. i mean, that that's, that's kind of the issue, um that I have personally, but, um, no, yeah, I, I, I really, you know, I mean, i think that's,
00:08:40
Keegan Drummond
a big reason why, and i don't know if you knew that I'm Catholic now, but like
Catholicism vs. Charismatic Leadership
00:08:44
Shea
Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:44
Keegan Drummond
that.
00:08:44
Keegan Drummond
So like, yeah, I mean, I think that's a big reason why I'm Catholic is because like the whole thing kind of works regardless of the person who's up there. Like I believe that Jesus Christ shows up in this really real way no matter if this priest is the worst person on earth, like Jesus is going to show up because the Holy Spirit has anointed this person to be ah priest.
00:09:09
Shea
yeah
00:09:15
Keegan Drummond
And um the Holy Spirit is going to make present the Son of God to all of us. That is what we call in the biz the epiclesis.
00:09:26
Keegan Drummond
Um, like Jesus is going to show up no matter like how I'm feeling, no matter how crappy this priest is. And a lot of them are terrible to to be around.
00:09:38
Keegan Drummond
No, I'm just joking.
00:09:38
Shea
ah
00:09:39
Keegan Drummond
A lot of them, a lot of them are pretty hard to be around. I should say, um a lot of them are great. A lot of them are good. Um, a lot of them aren't at, at,
00:09:50
Keegan Drummond
Being human, being just regular people, being people with like regular like social cues. um But, you know, Jesus is going to show up. So, I mean, that's kind of why that whole thing works for me. And I think that's why...
00:10:06
Keegan Drummond
But Pentecostalism, it's it's it's kind of it's kind of interesting because it sort of depends on um depends on someone like you. i mean and i think that's I mean, I don't want to say that's why you're successful, but I think that's it depends on someone who...
00:10:29
Keegan Drummond
has their act together you know i mean like like you're you're a solid young man hop a holy man with you know a beautiful wife a beautiful child you know like um ah we i don't know if you have any moral failures yet we'll find that out in like 20 years if you do or not um but like
00:10:32
Shea
Mm-hmm.
00:10:51
Keegan Drummond
But like, i don't know, it's sort of doesn't it kind of seem dependent on like a charismatic figure or like a good person that we can kind of like put go all in on?
00:11:10
Shea
that's ah that's a great That's a great question. Honestly, haven't thought about it. I think...
00:11:20
Shea
Yeah, going to have to think about my response because my my impulse is to say, ah yeah, like there's there's been... Just like seeing what's happening in the world right now, right? like the There's so many pastors right now that are just... Things are being exposed and
00:11:40
Keegan Drummond
Oh my goodness.
00:11:40
Shea
it goes it goes beyond like Pentecostal and charismatic. It's like, it's like just, uh, evangelical people. And I mean, there's all, there's all sorts of stuff happening all the time.
00:11:51
Shea
Um,
00:11:54
Shea
and And I think maybe kind of what what you're describing as, well, what I hear you saying is like there's there's a benefit to having um an institution or a church that doesn't depend on the one leader to lead it. Like there's there's systems and things in place like Catholic Church, highly organized, very liturgical, like religious.
00:12:20
Shea
if one priest you know goes down, there's another there's another guy to be there and and do the do the thing.
00:12:24
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:26
Keegan Drummond
yeah
00:12:27
Shea
And so I think there is there's an advantage to that in the sense of like stability. um and And I think there is something to this ah the reality that Yeah, no matter what, Jesus is going to show up.
00:12:42
Shea
and And that's the thing. i mean, this might be completely off topic, but there's a lot of stuff. Like, you know, we don't know. you can't You don't have to go go far to find the news stories, but yes.
00:12:54
Keegan Drummond
Okay. So, I mean, for example, I think like the elephant in the room at this moment is that Robert Morris, who is the pastor of Gateway Church, um recently pled guilty to sexual assault of a minor, took place in the 80s.
00:12:56
Shea
Yeah.
00:13:01
Shea
Yeah.
00:13:06
Shea
and
00:13:07
Keegan Drummond
I actually had family members who were at Gateway right before it, the news came out. So, I mean, it was kind of, it's it's quite, I mean, it's it's front of mind for my family.
00:13:16
Shea
Sure. hmm.
00:13:18
Keegan Drummond
um I had gone to Gateway a number of times, a couple years ago. um So yeah, I mean, yeah. And and someone who like seemingly had their crap together, who is from the pulpit, was saying the right things around, especially they're around relationships around women,
00:13:38
Keegan Drummond
um I mean, I remember the you know the few sermons that I heard from Robert Morris. He talks about um this issue he has around looking at women lustfully and his wife holding him accountable to it. I mean, that was that i mean that's i i you know I attended numerous services at Gateway, um and and that was always a topic that was...
00:13:57
Shea
yeah
00:14:02
Keegan Drummond
coming up in his sermons. And I don't think that's necessarily coincidental, um especially in light of what of what's come out, you know?
00:14:09
Shea
Yeah. Yeah.
Handling Scandals in Religious Institutions
00:14:12
Shea
Yeah.
00:14:12
Shea
and So I think for me, it's like, the A lot of people have this impulse, right? Especially, you know, you pointed out a lot of there's a lot of people that are in this like deconstructed space, think for these reasons, right? It's like, oh there there's a church um built around, for lack of better words, built around this person as as the leader,
00:14:12
Keegan Drummond
So...
00:14:38
Shea
I don't necessarily think that that's wrong ah to to build organizations around leadership. I mean, I think leadership is super important. And I think no matter what, ah in in some sense, right, like,
00:14:55
Shea
this the i think the I've not spent much time at all in Catholic spaces or going to mass or things like that. But I think in some sense, if there was a huge scandal with a priest at a local parish or something, ah people in that congregation or in that church,
00:15:12
Shea
place would kind of be affected by it. And some people might leave the church, right?
00:15:14
Keegan Drummond
Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:17
Shea
I think the symptoms, I think the reality of like, if there's a priest or or a leader or spiritual leader or a pastor that you really connect with, that you see as your leader, and you're depending on that person to do the right things, and then they don't do the right things, and they do it bearing the name of of God, ah it's going to harm people.
00:15:35
Shea
Um, And so I think that reality exists. I think organizationally it's different because of the way it's set up, right? Like a church like Gateway or, you know, a church or like smaller local churches.
00:15:49
Shea
If the pastor goes down, that church goes away because a lot of times they're just relying on the support of their congregation, you know, and that trust goes away.
00:15:50
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:57
Keegan Drummond
yeah
00:15:59
Shea
Right.
00:16:00
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. And I mean, and in the Catholic world, I mean, we have built organizations around individuals. I mean, that's what orders are, like mendicant orders that arose in the the Middle Ages, like the Franciscans or the Dominicans or the Augustinians.
00:16:06
Shea
yeah.
00:16:13
Keegan Drummond
I mean, these are, well, I mean, Augustinians, obviously, later. But like, you know, I don't i don't believe Francis was ever ordained a priest. I think so. I think that's correct. ah But like you know it's sort of this this personality that draws people in, a charism, we would call it, in the the Catholic world.
00:16:28
Shea
yeah
00:16:33
Keegan Drummond
But no, I mean, when I was in... I mean, I did campus ministry for two years, and so many students rediscovered their faith in college, And the reason they were rediscovering it and read like revisiting coming to mass every week was because their folks had left.
00:16:52
Keegan Drummond
Their folks had left because they um they were they were really upset with the how the church handled the the sex abuse crisis and the...
00:16:58
Shea
Yeah.
00:16:58
Keegan Drummond
ah uh in the early 2000s after the the boston globe article and i mean i mean you know the the sex abuse scandal it's it's everywhere i mean you know it's like every i mean and the crazy thing is you know if you look at some of the literature um even in uh even in like south america i was doing a i remember i was reviewing a book um
00:17:10
Shea
yeah
00:17:25
Keegan Drummond
on this one saint, uh, Saint Martin de Porres. Uh, he was, uh, a, uh, um, gosh, gosh. Oh my goodness.
00:17:36
Keegan Drummond
He, he's like the patron saint of barbers, which is, so if you ever go to a barber shop and it's owned by Catholics, it'll have a Saint Martin de Porres.
00:17:38
Shea
Hmm. ah
00:17:42
Keegan Drummond
Um, um But in this book, they're talking about how the priest used to do confession in a field in public because um sex abuse was so rampant.
00:17:53
Keegan Drummond
And it's like they needed to to to to have these sorts of boundaries around it. So, I mean, it's like... Yeah, i i do I do think you're you're touching on something important that these kinds of cults of personality are are... Sometimes it seems intrinsic to religious communities, regardless. like It's somewhat unavoidable, um regardless of what...
00:18:20
Keegan Drummond
what um whether whether you're Catholic or Orthodox or, you know, you you kind of attach yourself to these these personalities because the the charism is so strong and it resonates with you in this real and tangible way.
00:18:29
Shea
Yeah.
00:18:33
Shea
Yeah.
00:18:37
Keegan Drummond
Now, I think you're you're right in that. Like, it's somewhat unavoidable.
00:18:40
Shea
Yeah.
00:18:43
Shea
Well, and i think I think the difficulty, I could be wrong about this, but I think the difficulty is like, I think...
Leadership Accountability in Churches
00:18:51
Shea
in a huge way, like God designed us ah to live, ah to to to experience life in that way where we have leaders and there's people and mentors that that we look up, like we're designed for relationship and we're designed to bear the image of God. And so it's like, especially those who are called to be ah religious leaders, like pastors or priests or things like that, like,
00:19:17
Shea
you do have, I mean, and and scripture says like those who teach will will be accountable to a ah greater judgment. And so it's like, I think there is a sense in which like It's unavoidable because we're human. And I think God has designed us to follow human leaders.
00:19:35
Shea
ah And ah ultimately we follow Jesus, but even, you know, Apostle Paul's exhortation is follow me as I follow Christ. Right. And so I think we are hardwired to follow people. Right.
00:19:48
Shea
that that are gifted in those ways. and and I think it's more to me, it's more of an accountability question. It's like I think ah what's happening now and like the evangelical, you know, charismatic spaces is like there's a huge holes in in accountability ah that that I think right now, these this exposure of it, it it's the Lord.
00:20:12
Shea
ah showing up and being like, you're not, you can't hide this. You can't continue to do this. And, and so me as a young pastor, I'm seeing this and I'm like, it's starting to form my worldview. And I'm like, yeah, i don't want to, I don't want to operate without accountability, you know?
00:20:30
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, what you're what you're saying is, if I'm just trying to understand, you're saying that there are there are people that are given this sort of, like, apostolic gifting um that are soyer sort of somehow...
00:20:36
Shea
Sure.
00:20:50
Keegan Drummond
um extrinsically anointed for this work of leadership and the main issue around these sorts of, um, issues around moral failures and and scandal is that these folks, while they're gifting is legitimate, um, they do not have a framework of accountability set up to like moderate their, their behavior.
00:21:27
Shea
Yeah.
00:21:27
Shea
oh No, I'm not like, I think they should have good character too. But I think that people that are good at building things are always going to build, build things, you know, and it's hard. It's hard to tell. Like some people are like just master manipulators and they would fall into this category of like false profit, you know,
00:21:27
Keegan Drummond
Is that kind of what you're saying?
00:21:52
Shea
And they're going out there intentionally to deceive and build all of these things. And I think other people are are good good men that start out with a calling, right? And I'm not talking about Robert Morris. I don't know much about it, but it's it's a terrible thing.
00:22:07
Shea
But I think about like on a smaller scale, like, you know, people that I'm connected with that start the ministry with all the integrity and all the good intentions and then go through traumatic things.
00:22:20
Shea
ah in their life. And then like, they don't have accountability, they don't have community, they're put on this pedestal by their church. And now it's like this crushing weight of like secret, if I fail, all of these people are gonna like fall away or what and you know, this pressure.
00:22:35
Keegan Drummond
Thank you.
00:22:36
Shea
And it's like, man, like, that's not healthy. Like, that's not healthy. and And I think we need to have a perspective that's like, whether I'm the pastor or not, Jesus is going to show up for who he wants to show up for, you know, and and be able to like, take that pressure and say, hey, when when the warning signs come up, you know, it's okay to take a step back.
00:23:00
Shea
and And the accountability and support is more so for like, I think it works when people already have integrity. And so it's like, i think many people are, you know, extrinsically gifted.
00:23:13
Shea
And I can't speak to like people's integrity in stories on the news, ah just time will tell. But for like the majority of local pastors that I know, it's like, they're trying to do their best.
00:23:25
Shea
And then in some way, shape or form this culture of like, oh, the leader has to be the one, you know, gets formed and that they feel the pressure of that. And I don't think we're meant to carry that pressure. I think we're meant to lead as examples.
00:23:39
Shea
I don't think we're meant to ah like literally become like the one thing, the one person that everyone depends on. um We have to do it in community. We have to do it in teams. We have to have a system, system structure so that that one person doesn't have to be everything for an organization or a church.
00:24:03
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I think um I had done some research on this while was in divinity school. i I noticed this tendency in charismatic communities to naturally decentralize.
00:24:12
Shea
Okay.
00:24:18
Keegan Drummond
I think that's a like you look at the early days of like the Azusa Street revival or something.
Decentralization in Charismatic Christianity
00:24:23
Keegan Drummond
You look at someone like William J. Seymour. And it's like, why is the color line dissolving with the manifestation of the spiritual gifts?
00:24:35
Keegan Drummond
You know, why is it that, you know, the newspapers are calling out William J.
00:24:39
Shea
right
00:24:42
Keegan Drummond
Seymour for leading like white women astray, leading saying that like white women are divorcing their husbands who were in actuality just abusive men and needed they probably just needed to get out of the situation.
00:24:54
Shea
and
00:24:54
Keegan Drummond
Like, why is it... um you know which is So it's kind of interesting to me that my experience ah evangelicalism or way of of charismatic Christianity in Hawaii very hierarchical.
00:25:15
Keegan Drummond
um And that was something I always was very frustrated with and because I don't think it's necessarily... true to the spirit of, um because, I mean, so so interestingly, and this, maybe we're going to get in the weeds a bit, but it's interesting.
00:25:32
Shea
Yeah.
00:25:32
Keegan Drummond
Like, and maybe this would be helpful. I don't know. It's cool. um There's like this second wave of charismatic Christianity that happens in the 60s. um So there's like 1906, whatever.
00:25:41
Shea
Like vineyard.
00:25:44
Keegan Drummond
And then there's the second wave of charismatic Christianity in which like mainline denominations
00:25:45
Shea
Yeah.
00:25:49
Keegan Drummond
ah episcopalians methodists they start to like gravitate towards these charismatic um manifestations whatever the catholic church also starts that in the 60s and there the catholic church had so such a hard time reconciling this element of decentralization that would always take place in charismatic communities. They didn't really know what to do with it.
00:26:14
Keegan Drummond
Like, for example, something as simple as like putting your hand on someone to pray. Like in the Catholic church, that's a, that's, that signals somewhat like sacramental, right? Like when I was confirmed, a priest put his hand on my head and anointed me with oil or when you're anointing the sick,
00:26:30
Keegan Drummond
Like this is like a sacramental thing that comes out of the priesthood. It's natural to the priesthood. Whereas um the early practitioners of charismatic Catholic renewal in the sixties, they had this hard time reconciling that they were like, Oh, you can't put your hands on someone when you pray for them. Cause then you're exerting authority over them. And it's like, no, you're, you're expressing solidarity
00:26:56
Shea
Yeah.
00:26:56
Keegan Drummond
and At one point, they actually had sent a cardinal from Belgium undercover, in and and he infiltrated this community and said he was just like a priest just hanging out.
00:27:01
Shea
yeah
00:27:08
Keegan Drummond
And then it turns out that he was this cardinal. And then they write all these documents basically reconciling the Catholic faith with Pentecostalism. It's pretty cool. It's a pretty cool read.
00:27:19
Keegan Drummond
um yeah i mean it's crazy i i yeah it was a long research project i did um trying to get into a phd program but alas we're here um but um no i mean um but what was interesting was that my experience of of charismatic christianity in hawaii was that it was very hierarchical it was very like cultish
00:27:19
Shea
That's so interesting.
00:27:44
Keegan Drummond
you know like I felt like there was these figures that were like, okay, he... and it The verbiage kind of but came out of that too. It was like, well, so-and-so has the anointing.
00:27:55
Keegan Drummond
So-and-so has the this.
00:27:55
Shea
Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:57
Keegan Drummond
So-and-so... And it's just like... So-and-so speaks really well in public. Like, he's a doofus. I know so-and-so. He doesn't know anything.
00:28:07
Keegan Drummond
like Like, what are we talking about here?
00:28:08
Shea
yeah
00:28:11
Keegan Drummond
um feel like that was always very frustrating for me. how How, like, you know, i mean, you're a pastor now in ah and a church that sort of leans on these charismatic um theology.
00:28:18
Shea
yeah
00:28:23
Keegan Drummond
How do you kind of like reconcile, i guess, having this, like, how do you reconcile authority and that tendency in charismatic Christianity to um to decentralize?
00:28:32
Shea
Yeah.
00:28:38
Keegan Drummond
Or I don't know if that's the right word.
00:28:39
Shea
Yeah.
00:28:40
Keegan Drummond
It's like to sort of make egalitarian.
00:28:40
Shea
No, I know what you're talking about. i
00:28:43
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:28:43
Shea
i
00:28:43
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:28:44
Shea
i totally understand what you're saying. Like there's ah one of the most frustrating things for me, ah because I've been in those communities. i love those communities. I've transformed my life so much because i think i think you're describing two things.
00:29:03
Shea
Number one, when you're in a charismatic community, there's a huge emphasis on the empowerment of everyday people.
00:29:13
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:29:13
Shea
Like you have the same spirit that that raised Jesus from the dead. Like that is like one of the most repeated phrases. Like everything Jesus everything jesus did in like, as at least according to the you know his ministry, like healing sick, raising the dead, preaching the gospel, like that impact.
00:29:32
Shea
Like you can do that. You're called to do that. You have to do that. You're expected to do that. And so people take take it up and they're like, yeah. So you see everyday people. Like when I was in Bible college, i was like, ah after school, I'd go you know outside of my church and I'd be like praying for people and praying for students at the high school and like just fully believing like the Holy Spirit's with me. I'm going to see signs, wonders and miracles. And I saw some pretty amazing things.
00:30:01
Shea
The other interesting thing, and I'm not sure where this comes from, but like, there's a feature of it that is like, takes Ephesians and says, oh, first apostles and prophets and like elevates the author, like people with certain giftings. and And the difficult thing is like, nobody has a great definition for what are those things and how do you recognize it? And so like,
00:30:27
Shea
if you're recognized as that, like people kind of like give you this like honor ah and and it's like, okay, you're this like special person, you're a prophet of God, or you're like, you're this, you know, person. And then and then there's this weird compulsion that happens where it's like, I can't speak against someone who is leading something powerful, you know, because I'm criticizing the move of God, God's doing something. And so it, I think it comes from a good place of like,
00:30:56
Shea
I think the impulse comes from that early like Pentecostal revival with Azusa Street and stuff, where it's a lot of the educated communities were like super like, I'm rejecting this because it's not coming from our mainline denominations.
00:31:15
Shea
And so I think the impulse is like, we Pentecostals got to stick together. We spirit-filled people are like, you know, that do this. We got stick together. Let's not criticize each other, right? Let's not criticize each other because God might be doing something. Even though it looks weird, God might be doing something. And i think that's a that's a good thing. But I think sometimes it's to the detriment of like, when there's actual red flags, ah there's such a strong culture of like,
00:31:42
Shea
well, that might be God. I'm afraid to criticize. I'm afraid to raise questions. That's when it becomes unhealthy. And so for me as a pastor, reconciling that, uh,
00:31:52
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, i'm I'm just really curious about those
Evaluating Charismatic Leaders
00:31:55
Keegan Drummond
red flags. I mean, so when you were bringing that up, the first thing that came to mind was, so one of the professors from our, I'll tell you that who this is afterwards.
00:32:03
Keegan Drummond
One of the professors from our university, they were doing ministry in the Bay bay Area in the 1960s. And a very charismatic figure pops up in the Bay Area and he's doing... um
00:32:15
Keegan Drummond
uh, integrated worship, um, spirit filled worship. And it was, you know, he was one of the few people that was doing integrated worship, uh, during that time.
00:32:27
Keegan Drummond
Um, come to find out this is, uh, Jim Jones who would eventually take his church to Guyana and, um, commit mass suicide.
00:32:39
Keegan Drummond
Um, you know, so it's like, um,
00:32:39
Shea
Yeah.
00:32:44
Keegan Drummond
and our our professor was interested. i think he went to one service, got the vibes, the vibes were off. um
00:32:51
Shea
yeah
00:32:52
Keegan Drummond
But I mean, there, there are people either, there you know, there's one gentleman who is actually, I think he's, he's, he lives in Maui now and he left his black son in the care of um the people of Jonestown because um he knew they were, um they were integrated. He knew his son was going to have hard time in, in,
00:33:12
Keegan Drummond
You know, that time period as a black man, eventually, um and and left him in the care of that community. So it's like, you know, how, what what kind of guardrails, because in my eyes, how would you know?
00:33:29
Keegan Drummond
you know Because the fruit seems to be good. right We have these things that are good.
00:33:33
Shea
Yeah.
00:33:34
Keegan Drummond
We see like evidence of the Holy Spirit in that the Holy Spirit is unifying. He's breaking down the racial, the color line. he's you know um You're seeing these manifestations of holy of of of healing and and prophecy and speaking in tongues, wherever.
00:33:50
Keegan Drummond
like how how How on earth could you necessarily... like what How would you deal with that? You know, a situation with like a charismatic figure like a Jim Jones or or like so so many other folks who have, you know, like a, who's the guy with the person in his ear doing the healings?
00:34:00
Shea
yeah
00:34:04
Shea
Yeah.
00:34:13
Keegan Drummond
Like, that whatever his name is, the guy who's getting the, they're filling out the cards saying like, oh, I'm paralyzed from the waist down.
00:34:17
Shea
oh
00:34:20
Keegan Drummond
We've got so-and-so who's paralyzed from the waist down or whatever.
00:34:22
Shea
Oh. Oh, That's so bad.
00:34:24
Keegan Drummond
You know, like, you know, like how, how like, because there's fruit there or someone like a Benny Hinn who's like slapping people with a ah carpet.
00:34:28
Shea
Yes, yes.
00:34:34
Keegan Drummond
I mean, I know people who know people who have been healed at a Benny Hinn service.
00:34:38
Shea
Yeah.
00:34:38
Keegan Drummond
Like, what do you do with that?
00:34:38
Shea
Yeah. Yeah. That is a great question. i love that question because it just shows, it shows like just how complex these things can be.
00:34:51
Shea
So here's, here's my philosophy. I think here's what I think. This is my opinion. um I think that people show up like seeking God at these things and they're, they're, they're truly seeking Jesus, right? They're truly like,
00:35:08
Shea
I'm seeking the Lord for healing. and And ah maybe the person that's leading that meeting is not not the guy. He's like bad character, whatever, red flags, maybe even false prophet level, I don't know.
00:35:22
Shea
But that person, that person shows up and they're like, have faith in Jesus, for real Jesus, right? True relationship with God. And God in his mercy shows up for that person, even though the person on the stage that's leading might not be ah good person, might not be a good leader, might not even be a believer. you know ah i think that can happen.
00:35:47
Shea
I think that can happen, especially in the case of like ah you know the Benny Hinn example. like there are There are people who have been healed. And is it because of him or in spite of him or so like, how does that work?
00:36:03
Shea
I don't know. I think God shows up for people who want to encounter him and he will show up, like you said beginning, whether the priest is a good priest or a bad priest,
00:36:14
Shea
He'll show up for for someone who's really seeking a touch from the Lord. I think that the the, how do we discern ah those red flags? I think Jesus lays it out in the Sermon on the Mount when he talks about ah false prophets. And and I think Jesus,
00:36:32
Shea
not every case is as extreme as like either you're false prophet, you know, like the you're maybe a ah leader showing red flags might not necessarily be a false prophet. But I think we can apply that where he says, oh, you know, tree by its fruit.
00:36:46
Shea
And then a lot of times people will say, well, the fruit is the size of the ministry, the things that are happening in the ministry, people getting healed in the ministry, people experiencing something in the ministry. But if you look at the context of that passage in Matthew chapter seven, the whole Sermon on the Mount, it's it's not about the size of ministry or the fruit of ministry, the external factors. It's about it's about character.
00:37:09
Shea
It's about how this person cares for the poor. It's about how this person, ah you know, does this person do things for the praise of man or does he do for the praise of God? Does this is this person forgiving? Is this person always angry? Is this person like literally the most basic character things um is what Jesus says. These are the fruits that you got to look for.
00:37:32
Shea
And shortly after that, Jesus, you know, it's that famous scripture. It's like on the last day. people will come to me saying, I prophesied in your name. I healed in your name. I casted out demons in your name.
00:37:44
Shea
And Jesus says to them away from me. I never knew you, you workers of iniquity. And so I think that there, you know, in those in those cases, not to like cast judgment on these people, but it's like, there will be people that did those things that had ministries that were fruitful, that impacted the world for Jesus.
00:38:06
Shea
that they themselves on the last day will be exposed as not actually having known him, which is, i don't know how that works, but it can happen. And so we look for the character things, right? Sermon on the Mount.
00:38:20
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I guess ah the difficult, I mean, so I
Inclusivity in Worship Practices
00:38:24
Keegan Drummond
see what you're saying. Because I mean, yeah, that I mean, I guess that kind of ah it runs parallel to like what I believe as a Catholic, where the priest operates in in this way, what we call in the biz ex operae operato, where like the operation of the priest is valid and and regardless of whether or not they are like a good person or even like a heretic, like the fact that they have this anointing, the the spirit of God is able to still work through this person and and good can still come up with that. So, I mean, I basically, I feel like what you're saying is almost like there's this, this ex operae operato of like Pentecostal figures who, who may not have all their crap together.
00:39:04
Keegan Drummond
Um, but like there still can be fruit that is made possible despite the fact that they await the judgment of God. ah like the, the, the folks in their ministry can still encounter the, the presence of the Holy spirit in this, um, um, like powerful way, I guess, you know, here's, here's a difficulty I've had recently. like So I think one one issue I have that that, I mean, obviously I grew up in a charismatic church.
00:39:39
Shea
Yeah.
00:39:39
Keegan Drummond
i when i When I entered the Catholic church, I was part of a charismatic Catholic renewal group. um i was My research was was centered around um charismatic Christianity um it's it It interests me at an intellectual level.
00:39:59
Keegan Drummond
It's never really resonated with me, i honestly. like i don't i I think emotionally
00:40:02
Shea
yeah
00:40:06
Keegan Drummond
um it doesn't resonate with me um as much as it has for other people. um and And I was actually talking, you know, because my my wife, she studies, you know, she's doing a PhD and she studies this idea of affect or like, or an emotion, two different things.
00:40:27
Keegan Drummond
But like, um we were talking about it and it's just like, like Am I emotionally immature? is my you know affect Because it like is my is because my affect is very low,
00:40:43
Keegan Drummond
like do i um and a sort of never destined to be a good charismatic um
00:40:51
Shea
ah but
00:40:51
Keegan Drummond
but but i think But I think the reality is, though, like like there are so many people who...
00:40:54
Shea
yeah
00:40:58
Keegan Drummond
who i mean what if like say say you like you have autism you know like what do you like how how Do these communities, because this is, I do kind of have an axe to grind against charismatics, you know, and being like, sort of self identified as one at one point, and even now, like, it seems that there is this like,
00:41:24
Keegan Drummond
feeling of superiority that like these charisms can resonate with some people, but not others. yeah Do you know what i mean? Like, like some people, like they walk in a room and they see people like raising their hands during worship and crying and falling over. And it's just like, dude, that's not for me.
00:41:41
Keegan Drummond
And then I feel like the tendency that I've seen in Pentecostals has been like, oh, they're just not like ready. Oh, they're, they're like, like, like, um,
00:41:52
Keegan Drummond
you know, they're they're not spiritual enough or they're like, um I feel like there's some like verbiage I've heard, like some sentence people say where they're like hindering the spirit.
00:41:59
Shea
Mm-hmm.
00:42:02
Keegan Drummond
And it's just like, no, I feel like you guys are acting like goofballs and I don't really want anything to do with that.
00:42:03
Shea
yeah
00:42:09
Keegan Drummond
Like, I don't know, but I feel like I'm a spiritual person. i like pray. i pray the rosary. I pray the divine mercy chaplet. You know, i pray I pray every day. Like I i have this relationship with God, um but I don't, but I feel like there's other people who don't necessarily have the similar devotions that I have as a Catholic, but like they would be like spiritually homeless in a charismatic church. Yeah.
00:42:36
Keegan Drummond
Like, what, do how do you, yeah, and I guess as a pastor, like, how do you deal with that?
00:42:39
Shea
britain
00:42:40
Keegan Drummond
Like, how do you deal with folks that aren't necessarily going to resonate with that? I mean, do you think that they have like, some lack of spiritual maturity because they're unwilling to be like slain in the spirit?
00:42:54
Keegan Drummond
Or like, like, how do you how do you reconcile that?
00:42:58
Shea
ah My answer is no, I don't think that people who Well, first of all, I think the, the even like the the idea of like being willing to be slain in the spirit or, i mean, the i the verbiage of that is, has always been a little strange to me, but like that phenomenon has been described, you know, in church history, you know, where, where ah like a lot of times, you know, charismatics will cite when, when Solomon, uh,
00:43:30
Shea
when they, what do you call it, consecrated the the temple, right? And the spirit of God came and the priests were unable to minister.
00:43:34
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:43:37
Shea
lot of charismatic say, see like the presence of God was so heavy, like there's a physical effect on people. ah and And so it's like, I don't think if you're gonna be slain in the spirit, for me, it's it's something that God's gotta do. It's not something that you're, it's like, it's an external thing. like You're not willing to, you're not unwilling to.
00:44:02
Shea
It's something that happens. And if it happens, that's great. Like, you know?
00:44:06
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, but I guess more generally speaking, like, what would you say to someone?
00:44:08
Shea
me Okay, okay.
00:44:09
Keegan Drummond
Because, like, I would consider myself, like, you know, when you and i are doing chapels together, I was not the type of person to do that.
00:44:14
Shea
Yes.
00:44:18
Keegan Drummond
I feel like I was, you know, i had ah
00:44:18
Shea
Yeah.
00:44:20
Keegan Drummond
ah very personal relationship with the god with God and that was manifest in all these different like devotions that I had cultivated in my own light personal walk.
00:44:30
Keegan Drummond
And I feel like I mean, obviously looks different now, but like back then i wouldn't necessarily put myself in those situations to begin with.
00:44:37
Shea
Sure, sure.
00:44:38
Keegan Drummond
you know um And I think a lot of people, you know especially coming from like ah different um Protestant community, background, you know, whether you're some other denomination, like you're not necessarily going to be like willing or not willing, even just like, it's, it's like a strange thing, you know, like how, how, as a pastor, how would you reconcile that?
00:44:58
Shea
Yeah.
00:45:03
Keegan Drummond
You know, like people are coming in from the outside, some like
00:45:03
Shea
Yeah.
00:45:06
Keegan Drummond
Mok guy from Wyanai like comes in and it's like what like like and he's just kind of like what the heck what's happening here like I'm there I mean not to say that Mok people from Wyanai aren't Pentecostals I'm sure there are but like yeah yes exactly
00:45:09
Shea
if
00:45:13
Shea
Yeah.
00:45:18
Shea
Sure. But someone just like foreign to that context. Yeah. I think for me, I try to cultivate ah ah an environment where um we have a culture of vibrant worship, but not, not,
00:45:33
Shea
but not ostracizing people who may not feel comfortable with that. Because God has also called the testimony, our our church, to to reach those who are are outside of that.
00:45:47
Shea
And there's people on our leadership team that are kind of like in a similar boat to you where they're like, you know They got saved, um had experiences with God, filled with the Holy Spirit, spoken tongues, but like are still uncomfortable in environments where things are very, for lack of better terms, seem very chaotic or very emotional.
00:46:09
Shea
And that's fine. i'm like you know and And we've had conversations. So I think, number one, we have to have those conversations and acknowledge it. And I think maybe in charismatic environments, there's such a um priority on the experience and the the wanting the experience to feel a certain way in the room.
00:46:29
Shea
People that don't necessarily feel comfortable with that can get ostracized very easily. And then it's like, well, they just don't know. they just don't know what they're missing out on.
00:46:38
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:46:39
Shea
And it's like, and for, for it's not like, Like you don't walk into those rooms like feeling like, oh, yeah, I'm so mad at this. It's just like, whoa, it's a lot.
00:46:48
Keegan Drummond
yeah
00:46:49
Shea
And so how do we have that conversation? how do we how do we begin to bridge that gap? Because my heart, right, and my heart is to bring people with that mindset into an environment where they're we can be in fellowship and not feel awkward around that group of people that is like so vibrant, the ones that are always going to be on the ground, always crying, always going to be, you know, slain in the spirit, quote unquote, right?
00:47:16
Shea
um And I think we have to have unity in our church. We have to have space in our church for different expressions. yeah And I also think that that maybe it's a, you know, ah from perspective,
00:47:29
Shea
I guess a relational standpoint.
00:47:33
Shea
I think it it can happen both ways where like, I think charismatics feels so uncomfortable you know, just generally speaking, Charismatics, but people that kind of grew up in in church culture where the experience is emphasized a lot can feel very uncomfortable and very maybe looked down upon in spaces where that's not happening and there's more intellectual learning going on.
00:48:01
Shea
you know they feel like oh like i'm not good enough i'm not smart enough right and all of this so i've had those conversations too and i think i think i want to be able to have a church that bridges that gap where both people can feel comfortable and so we don't pressure people into in expression but we kind of go to the bible we go to the scriptures and one of the things we do is we look at the psalms and we say well what what are the actions when when they're praising god
00:48:05
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:48:28
Shea
you know What are the actions associated with praising God? And some of these words translated into praise the Lord or bless the Lord from the Hebrew have fixed physical emotions associated with them. Like one thing we we talked about like is Barak, right? That word Barak is to bless the Lord.
00:48:47
Shea
But it also has this... This action associated with it of kneeling down, getting low. Right. um Another word, I forget out what the word is, but it's like praise the Lord, but it it means to praise the Lord with your lifted hands.
00:49:00
Shea
Right. Another word that ah gets translated into praise the Lord means means to means to shout. It's like a shout of victory. Right. right And so I think in the way that the Bible describes worship happening, it's it's very vibrant, very interactive. It's very emotional.
00:49:18
Shea
And I think it's healthy for people to be able to express their emotions. right And we all get excited about things like so something really good happens in your life. You have your way of celebrating, which might be different.
00:49:32
Shea
But what I want to see is whatever your peak of emotion is, I think you should be able to feel that as you're worshiping the Lord and express it to its fullest ah because God did create us with emotions to connect to him and to feel his presence.
00:49:48
Shea
ah So I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's just like sometimes it's overwhelming for people that have a lower affect, right? as you I don't know if I'm using that word correctly.
00:49:56
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. I don't either. I was actually trying to ask her last, like, two nights ago, because I was going to do, like, a solo podcast of, like, ah just kind of talking about, like, emotions and, like, how, like, I don't know, like, I just never really felt um like I could resonate with charismatic Christianity yeah as someone that's just, like, I don't know.
00:50:01
Shea
ah but
00:50:14
Shea
Yeah.
00:50:18
Keegan Drummond
I grew up Lutheran, too, so it was just, like, really foreign to me as well.
00:50:19
Shea
Yeah.
00:50:21
Keegan Drummond
I guess, ah so, I mean, yeah. I'm curious, you know ah you know, I feel like to kind of like put a circle around this, like
Staying Anchored in Faith Despite Challenges
00:50:31
Shea
true.
00:50:32
Keegan Drummond
you're...
00:50:32
Keegan Drummond
um
00:50:36
Keegan Drummond
you're still in this thing. Like you're still like, yeah I mean, obviously I, you know, it's like, uh, know, I had a, I had a, the second show I talked to someone who's like still in ministry, still like part of the same, like religious tradition, um that, that I left them in.
00:50:37
Shea
Yes.
00:50:53
Keegan Drummond
and you're kind of like in the same boat in a way. I mean, obviously I'm sure there's been, you know, I haven't seen you in probably like six or seven years,
00:50:56
Shea
yeah
00:50:59
Shea
yeah
00:51:00
Keegan Drummond
Like, I'm sure there's been a lot of growth and a lot of changes. I mean, fatherhood, you being a husband, whatever. Like there's, there's probably a lot of things that have happened naturally out of that a lot of maturity that had to take place, whatever.
00:51:11
Keegan Drummond
But like, you're still there, you know, like you, yeah I mean, if, if I were to guess, you know, in 2016, when I met you or whenever that was 2015, um, like if I were to guess that like where you would have ended up, it probably would be here, like where you are now. Like, um,
00:51:30
Keegan Drummond
you know, it's interesting because, you know, you talk about this era um at the Bible college um that, you know, it sort of went like non-denominational, you know, so it was like really like Calvinist before. It was really like, there was all these different phases before, but a lot of those folks before um you got there, like a lot of them, and maybe even some of the folks that are You really were part of like a new era at that school. But like the era kind of before that, a lot of those folks are not there. like They're not in the same place.
00:52:04
Shea
Mm-hmm.
00:52:04
Keegan Drummond
they are like they've They've gotten divorced.
00:52:06
Keegan Drummond
They've they've like left Christianity. They've they've done all... like So many. like Majority of the people that I know from that era that I was friends with um are gone. Yeah.
00:52:18
Keegan Drummond
gone how um How did you, how are you like still there? Why are you still there?
00:52:30
Keegan Drummond
And what's different about you maybe necessarily than than those folks? Because I'm not in the same, I'm not like in a way, like I'm still like a devout Christian.
00:52:40
Shea
Yeah.
00:52:41
Keegan Drummond
um But even me, I'm i'm not there anymore. Like how how are you still there? Why are you still there? And like, what's going to keep you going as you like continue to lead this ah church, the testimony?
00:53:02
Shea
ah That's a huge question. Why am i still here? I mean, to give the Sunday school answer, it's it's the grace of God, brother. ah
00:53:11
Keegan Drummond
I mean, it's true, right? I mean...
00:53:14
Shea
But, man, like, I look back on the experiences and... and um
00:53:26
Shea
I don't know, man. i Honestly, Keegan, like, I knew i was I knew that Jesus was real when I was in preschool.
00:53:37
Shea
Like without a doubt in my mind, I had a relationship with him and I knew that he was everything that they said he was. And i I don't know how I knew, but I just had like reveled, like by literally, I think by the revelation of the Holy Spirit, like Jesus revealed himself to me.
00:53:58
Shea
And then in eighth grade, he called me to ministry and I knew in my heart, like I came home one day from school and I said, dad, I'm supposed to be a pastor.
00:54:08
Shea
And that has never changed for me um through all the seasons of my life. Like, And really what what I think it is, it's like my anchor in all of this um was not because of a church.
00:54:22
Shea
It wasn't because of a tradition. It wasn't because of ah leaders or pastors that I've had. Like they've helped me form foundations, but my anchor in everything
00:54:28
Keegan Drummond
Thank
00:54:33
Shea
has been just this relationship with Jesus that I've, it's to me, it's it's it's un absolutely undeniable. The things that he said to me, the things that, the path that he's had me on, the the experiences with him, um to me, it's just like, there's no other conclusion that I can come to then I have to follow whatever he says and do whatever he says he's doing and believe that he's gonna lead me where he's promised. And so to me, i'm like i don't I didn't exert much effort to try and stay on the path because ah feel like God has just revealed himself in so many ways.
00:55:19
Shea
And the only effort I've exerted was like having to be faithful to the things that he's asking me to do. So I don't know if, I don't know how different that is from other people's experience, but it's literally, i I'm not here necessarily because I grew up in a certain church tradition. Like so much of it so much of who I am and where I am is, is founded on like personal experiences and this revelation from God about who he is and what he wants for me.
00:55:54
Shea
And then I just trust that where he puts me is where he wants me. And I'm gonna listen to the leaders in my life and I'm gonna gain all that I can from them and do my best to be faithful with what I have.
00:56:06
Shea
And I trust that, hey, I think I'm on the right track. I mean, I'm not sure, but we'll see when we get to heaven if I if i did what I was supposed to do, but I feel good about it so far.
00:56:16
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. I mean, I think that's a, that's a good enough place as any to, to leave it. um Is there, a so, I mean, like, I guess I've been kind of like giving people like an opportunity to sort of be like wherever they're at to sort of be like, you know, like,
00:56:31
Keegan Drummond
um like this is this is where I'm going to leave it. like you know If I were to... you know Anything that you kind of want to like get off your chest that maybe I didn't touch on that you wish you touched on, whatever.
00:56:44
Keegan Drummond
um Is there anything like that that you would want to share? Especially with like the folks that maybe... Like I said, there's a lot of folks that are listening that therere they're not there anymore.
00:56:55
Keegan Drummond
I mean, that's that's actually a lot of the folks that reach out to me about the podcast.
00:56:55
Shea
Yeah.
00:56:59
Keegan Drummond
They're like... It's so interesting because, you know, we all grew up in this together and I'm not there anymore whatever. um What would you say to to that person, I guess, or I mean, anything else you'd want to say?
00:57:13
Shea
Yeah. um
00:57:17
Shea
I would say to that person,
00:57:22
Shea
you don't have to come back to what you left if what you left was a culture and an institution that hurt you, but you should come back to Jesus. you know You should land in Jesus and where he has you. and And I think part of what Jesus wants for, and there's a number of people in my church that we've walked through in the past couple of years that have been in that deconstructed place and we're walking with them. and And it's like,
00:57:50
Shea
man, like, I'm not asking you to buy into my church. I'm asking you to, like, consider Jesus and and forget what you knew and try to learn again, you know, and I'm going to teach you what I know, and it might be part of a culture, but, you know, let's let's have transparency. and And really, man like, the church, you're always going to, if the church in your mind is also, like, takes the place of Jesus, that's really hard. It's really hard to, like,
00:58:17
Shea
It's really hard because the church is ultimately made of people and people are gonna fail you and hurt you and all of those things. But if we can get back to this place of like, I'm gonna seek Jesus first,
00:58:29
Shea
And then I'm going to work through some of those hurts, have grace maybe for the community you were raised in and and forgive the people that maybe hurt you. And maybe the answer is not going back to that same place, but finding a new church, a different church that that you feel it connects with you more.
00:58:47
Shea
I'm fine with that, but please like, Seek Jesus. And what I see so often is that people that get deconstructed, they're so hurt by the church and so hurt by religion and the institution or or Bible teachings or whatever, or bad interpretations that they learned that hurt them from the Bible.
00:59:05
Shea
It's like, man, like, it's okay. Just it's okay to be hurt by those things. But man, God still loves you. Jesus is still there. And there are good churches. There are good people. There are good men and women that you can trust in the future that want to walk with you.
00:59:23
Shea
And i I would say just like stay open to that. Continue praying for God just to show you the way. Even if that way, like it's a scary prayer for me as a pastor when I hear people praying this. Like, God, lead me to the truth even if it leads me away from this church.
00:59:38
Shea
I'm like, Amen. Because I'm confident that the church is built on truth. And if you're really praying, really seeking the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, he's going to lead you back to communion with his people.
00:59:53
Shea
have every confidence about that. So yeah, I would just say like, keep your heart open and don't shut yourself off from the church because you had really bad experiences because there are good there are good ones out there that really represent Jesus.
01:00:10
Keegan Drummond
I think that's a good place for us to wrap it up. ah
01:00:13
Shea
Thank you.
01:00:14
Keegan Drummond
Super thankful that you were open to doing this. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you as a person. um Really stoked to see where you guys are. I mean, I remember just in Bible college, like I remember like telling Carla, I was just like, you guys are so great. like I was like, I quartered her one time. I'm like, you guys are awesome. I love this. like I love this. What's happening here?
01:00:35
Keegan Drummond
And I'm just so stoked. Like, I mean, this is like what's come out of it. it's really cool. So um appreciate you guys and um wish you nothing but the best. I'm going to stop it here and then just stick around for a second while it uploads.
01:00:48
Shea
Okay. Yeah.
01:00:49
Keegan Drummond
All right, bet.
01:00:49
Shea
yeah
01:00:50
Keegan Drummond
Later, everyone.