Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
# 5 My Friend the Ex Youth Pastor - ʻAlohilani McDonald
49 Plays8 months ago
Keegan and ʻAlohi navigate exes, church hurt, and a pesky lawnmower.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Perfect. Okay. So, yeah, i I'm super stoked about this one. I've been thinking about like how to go about this conversation literally all week.
00:00:12
Speaker
um I was at my brother's wedding when we were messaging back and forth, and I was just like, we've got a good one. We've got a good one this week. And um I, yeah, but I haven't really, I've been thinking about, like, what way to kind of go about this conversation, because this is genuinely, I've kept in touch with everyone I've had on the show. They've been pretty easy, you know, like, Kamma and I speak, maybe we were texting, and that's how the show came about.
00:00:39
Speaker
Shawnee came up to visit us in Virginia. Quinn's my brother. So like everything's been pretty easy. yeah um You, i I'll say the last like really tangible memory I have of you and I speaking, working together was I was sort of this assistant pastor kind of deal for our young adult ministry, and we had asked you to preach for it.
00:01:11
Speaker
i don't know if you remember. it Yeah, okay. And honestly, i was thinking about it, and that was probably one of, like... the better nights of that ministry. It was a really cool moment, I think. you You shared your testimony. I feel it was really impactful. I felt like it touched a lot of people.
00:01:29
Speaker
And um in the moment, I kind of felt it was this special, special night that and i don't And I don't think you were super involved in that ministry or even the church that church at the time. I think you were at the satellite campus.
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah. um But I think that's the last sort of moment I remember working, speaking with you.
00:01:57
Speaker
And yeah. Yeah. And the whole point of the podcast is to sort of like talk about where we were yeah where we've gone. um And i you know, I don't i don't really...
00:02:11
Speaker
um No. Anything. About anything. did Yeah. So, um yeah. I guess we could start from the beginning, though. Maybe that makes sense. Yeah. Actually, that night was, like, the most impactful night of my walk in general.
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah. Like, i don't I don't know why, but it's, like, so distinct for me because I was like, oh, this is real. Like, kind of thing. Like, I don't know why, but...
00:02:40
Speaker
I was doing a blog at that time and like some like a lot of people showed up that I haven't connected with in a while and actually connected with someone from high school like not we didn't weren't in the same grade but we were went to school at the same time and she was like I was reading your your uh blog and like she's like and you're like the sermon ah was I don't know it was just like so weird it felt like so real um I was like I don't know something I wanted to do at the time like I was like oh dang this is the path I'm going down kind of thing
00:03:25
Speaker
And, I mean, at the time, i guess I don't want to jump around too much, but, I mean, you were in, we we entered Bible college, I think the same semester. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we started at the same time.
00:03:40
Speaker
So, I mean, you were were you kind of discerning a role in a church at that point? I mean, this is probably 2014. twenty fourteen i think you probably...
00:03:52
Speaker
had been out of school, high school for a little bit? Yeah, like a year. So, so sorry I'm trying to, like, remember.
00:04:03
Speaker
So, obviously, I followed someone to that school.
00:04:10
Speaker
didn't really know what I was going to do. I was just following someone. And then like, I just kind of stayed there after a while. And then in that moment, like when I start spoke at that, um, that ministry, was like, dang, this is, this is what I'm doing.
00:04:27
Speaker
Like, kind of was just going with the flow for so long after like I followed someone to school. Yeah, I mean, it seemed to come but very naturally for you to to to share your faith and um to be in that sort of pastoral role. And um so, I mean, that was that was kind of, i mean, were you at the time when you went into school, was it Purely like following the guy or is it? Yeah. yeah
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah. Like I, obviously ah I had faith. Um, yeah like, you know, I was doing that, but I literally did not know what I wanted to do with my life. So I was just like, okay, I'll follow you.
00:05:19
Speaker
I followed them to the previous school that we went to. And then, They were like, let's move home. And I was like, okay, what are we going to And then we went to the same school.
00:05:30
Speaker
So I didn't really have, like, an idea in mind. I just was going with it. I think I kind remember. So you guys went to, if I'm not mistaken, you went to another Bible college in Oregon? Yeah.
00:05:45
Speaker
um In Washington. It was a... I don't i don't think it was specifically a Bible college. It was like a like a really Christian college. Okay. um They had like... You could study to become a pastor, but they had like um teaching degrees, nursing degrees. like It was kind of like an all-rounder, not how specific the college we went to in Hawaii.
00:06:09
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, you go in... kind of following a guy who he thinks he he wants to be a pastor, and you're just kind of ah along for the ride thinking maybe pastor's wife kind of deal. Yeah, like, that was just like, okay, I guess I'm just gonna be a pastor's wife, and...
00:06:33
Speaker
I was taking it as like, I don't know a lot about Christianity like as much, so I'll take this time to what I thought a pastor's wife did.
00:06:43
Speaker
um Literally all the pastor's wife that I followed on social media all went to like Bible college. So was like, okay, like this is what I'm doing. Interesting. Okay. So it wasn't it wasn't like a vocational thing. It was, or I guess in a sense that it was like,
00:06:59
Speaker
you were going to be this location of the pastor's wife. know Yeah. Okay. But not necessarily like I'm going to be the next Joyce Meyer. who yeah Yeah. Like I was.
00:07:14
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. um Okay. Real quick. Okay. Sorry. I don't mean to cut this off. um I just want to, your audio levels are through the skyrocketing yeah i think so i don't know if it's like a if you can move is it's through your webcam though huh yeah i don't know i can like back up is that better don't know is it is it capturing sorry is it capturing this
00:07:45
Speaker
I don't think so Is this better? I think it's better now. Okay, I'll sit back here. Okay, maybe it's not. I think it's actually not. well oh no i think We'll edit it in post. That's fine.
00:07:56
Speaker
don't know what, like, I... Hold on, let me see if I can edit the volume of this. Or is it... Because it's, like, still capturing on this side.
00:08:09
Speaker
Is it doing anything here? Yeah. It is? That's better? i think so. to see. actually, OK. I think I see it not going as crazy.
00:08:20
Speaker
It's not going as crazy. I don't know. OK. It's literally that i game setup is driving me nuts. No worries, no worries. ill I'll probably just lower the volume or something anyways in post, but I just was like, if we can try and get it now before the first 10 minutes, maybe we can... Yeah, okay.
00:08:37
Speaker
Sorry, I see it. okay Okay, no, you're good. you're good again You can move around. It's fine. We can just edit it. It's cool. um We're doing it live. um Okay, okay, okay, okay.
00:08:50
Speaker
Anyways, back to it. Pastor's Wife. Yeah, that's kind of interesting. I didn't think that was really the thing. I thought... because Okay, and we can talk about this or not, but you guys were at one point being targeted to be, like, youth pastors, even early on, right?
00:09:07
Speaker
Yeah, so he was very connected with... The ministry, like, from a very young age, his parents were very connected.
00:09:20
Speaker
And so he, like, was so involved and everyone kind of knew him growing up. And I just felt like that was such a thing back then. Like, they trusted people who were there for a while, which is fair.
00:09:34
Speaker
But, yeah, he... to be honest, when we started dating, I didn't even know that was on his radar. Like, I didn't even know, like, a... ministry vocation thing was like a thing until we moved home. kind of like an existential crisis thing. at least that's what it was for me. It was yeah like, oh, I don't have anything else going on with my life.
00:09:58
Speaker
Maybe I'll do this thing, make this extremely radical change in my life that makes no money. Literally, yeah. Nothing. So it might have, I mean, it could have been just that. Who knows?
00:10:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, he... i I think at one point it was in talks to do one of the youth ministries. Sorry, they're doing...
00:10:27
Speaker
You're good now. bad. No, you're fine. I'm not gonna talk until...
00:10:37
Speaker
apartment like okay here's he's he's got perfect okay right on okay my bad okay no you're fine where should i start again no um no okay yeah yeah you guys were being kind of um was about to say groomed but that is kind of the word that you were you guys were being like set up to be sort of a power couple in our youth ministry at one point yeah i I kind of felt it in that way. Like, I did feel like were kind of spotlighted.
00:11:17
Speaker
yeah um I mean, i also think it was because there weren't a lot of couples at the time, too. So it's like, it felt almost like a replacement of a previous, like,
00:11:32
Speaker
pastor that left that was leading you know what i mean like it was like okay we need something similar to that and so like i felt like that's why we were really spotlighted because it's what was familiar yeah and i guess i mean what's kind of interesting well one he was in that pastor's yeah ho group growing up and and i actually had interacted with him and his parents because we all did ministry together at a satellite campus um years ago when when I was like a freshman in high school so I mean he he had been around and kind of got the the culture I guess like what you were saying yeah yeah I don't think anyone foresaw him or you because you you did get involved in high school to an extent yeah I was so I started coming after summer camp of
00:12:29
Speaker
i was ah I was going into my senior year. So it was like the summer before my senior year. I can't remember. I think it was 2012. um That's when I first, like I was going to the church, but I wasn't involved.
00:12:42
Speaker
And then I went to the camp in 2012. And then I was like, oh, I like this. And then that's when I started going. And that's actually where we reconnected was after that camp, I started going to the youth group.
00:12:57
Speaker
Huh. yeah Okay, so you came into it through camp. you were in like Did you like come with a friend or something? No, it was just me. Oh, really? Yeah, I was just didn't connect with my family at the time.
00:13:12
Speaker
wasn't really connecting with anyone at high school. And like, i was, I grew up at the time where MTV had all those like summer camp things and like summer camp, like is like the best thing. so I was like, okay, I'm gonna try this and see if I feel connected in any way.
00:13:30
Speaker
Yeah. um So you, I'm trying to think of what camp that would have been. Was it inside the church or was it? No, that i I can't remember if that was the first time it was on the west side.
00:13:43
Speaker
oh okay. I can't remember if that was the first one or not. I don't think it was actually. Interesting. Yeah, it was, I know it was 2012 though.
00:13:55
Speaker
Was I there? man It's like blurry because I feel like there were ton of people there. like When I came back after going to college, like I was like, oh, dang, everyone is still like here from summer camp-ish.
00:14:13
Speaker
Oh, interesting. yeah i mean because we yeah i mean i guess so I was under the impression that you were involved previous to... ah your relationship and going to Bible college? Because I thought i had kind of already known you at that point. Yeah, I mean, I was, so I was involved.
00:14:35
Speaker
Maybe it wasn't, maybe it wasn't my senior year.
00:14:41
Speaker
I don't remember. I have to look back at it, but I was involved because I was doing media actually with your brother.
00:14:50
Speaker
So I was actually, like, I was serving um in high school still. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And we knew, because we knew, like, you went to high school. I think I had friends that went to the same high school as you that were younger, younger.
00:15:08
Speaker
Yeah, okay. That's, yeah, I feel like there was that connection already. So, I mean, we go into you, ah me, and a couple other people, we all enter Bible college at the same time.
00:15:22
Speaker
And um it seems like you you guys, like, kind of are sort of, like, kind of what you said, you're spotlighted not only by the the church we were going to, but ah by the college we're going to. And some of the professors kind of take you guys under their wing. i think they kind of foresaw you being ah a kind of power couple there too, or this sort of like influential ah force in the the Bible college world. And ah yeah, I mean, and that was kind of an interesting relationship you guys seemed and to navigate ah yeah pretty early on.
00:16:03
Speaker
It's funny because I don't like I know on the church side i felt that way I don't think I like necessarily saw it that way but now that you're speaking about I'm like oh yeah I kind of did connect with the professors a lot and the staff as well and us as a couple yeah.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah I mean and it was like a And we I think we were all kind of hanging out because we had it come from the the youth ministry and we were sort of entering into this thing together.
00:16:35
Speaker
And I think that kind of sets up the, for all of us, that that first semester, this sort of vision that maybe it was just me that, oh, we're going to do this thing. We're going to change Hawaii. We're going to like, for you know, I don't know. i like, did were you guys having those same types of thoughts going into it or? Yeah, I had the same thoughts. and also they were like, don't worry about like, how are you going to get connected or like how you're going to get a job after this? We're so connected.
00:17:11
Speaker
i I have a distinct memory about that, of being like, we have so much connections, like, you're gonna, like, go into your calling. Like, I remember having that specific conversation, or like, it being a conversation, and I was, so in my mind, I was like, oh, okay, I'm, like, I'll be okay after Bible college. I'll have a job, and, like, I'll have some sort of living off of this.
00:17:37
Speaker
So you were you were were people in the Bible college telling you that? Yes, like the staff. Man, they didn't tell me that kind of stuff. Well, because i that was like my main thing. I was like, I cause i don't know if you know this, but I got kicked out of my grandma's house during the time, was living with my grandma.
00:18:02
Speaker
So I actually had to live with my partner at the time and his parents. So like, that's why I was so, that maybe that's why I felt so connected because I was like trying to figure it out oh But that was like one of my main things. I was like, I'm worried about what this looks like in the future.
00:18:24
Speaker
So, I mean, you're going into this like, just face, blind face, everything will be taken care of. I mean, because it's somewhat looking that way. I mean, i guess like your boyfriend at the time, they're able to take you in People are,
00:18:45
Speaker
sort of propping you up to be um future pastors in the youth ministry and people are sort of targeting you guys for um like to mentor you and that sort of thing.
00:18:59
Speaker
um what What kind of changes there? I guess we're pretty, we're still pretty early on ah because this is, I mean, like even this is before you guys. Yeah. Like in the relationship or in like their church sense.
00:19:14
Speaker
Yeah. I guess in everything, right? Because yeah does everything kind of changed at that point or not really? So when the relationship changes, when I kind of took it on for myself.
00:19:29
Speaker
um So obviously the person moved away and we were engaged and we got unengaged and like, I don't know. I think I was just still going through.
00:19:42
Speaker
with emotions and eventually was able to go back in love with my grandma at the time. um But I think I was so disconnected from family that this is the only place where I felt connected.
00:19:58
Speaker
So like, I didn't know what I was doing, but it felt comfortable. So I think that's why like I continued doing it despite me following somebody.
00:20:10
Speaker
like the relationship change because
00:20:14
Speaker
I don't know, I can't speak for that specific person, but I don't think, like for me, I was like, oh I like have a lot of faith, but I'm not sure if that person had as much faith or maybe was going into the relationship thinking that like, oh, we are,
00:20:32
Speaker
this is right and this is the ideal kind of thing. And maybe that freaked him out. I don't know. I'm not, we didn't really get a lot of closure. He just kind of up and left, to be honest.
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I do recall that pretty. ah yeah I mean, it was like the first semester, right? or like the first semester. was like end of first semester. I actually found out through somebody else that he was leaving.
00:21:00
Speaker
I didn't even know that he was leaving. Like it was a plan for us to go to the mainland, but then someone came up to me was like, Oh, are you like moving to the mainland? I just heard like that. He said that you guys are, or that he's moving.
00:21:15
Speaker
And I was like, uh, like not current, not right now. And there was the most awkward and it literally got into the car and like we had the conversation and that's where it ended. It was like so, so interesting.
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah. I, the only memory I have was we're all debriefing it in maybe like between classes or something. And you're like, yeah, he made me keep the ring. Yeah.
00:21:46
Speaker
I still have it. I tried to pot it off and they were like, it's not, oops. That sounds me They were like, it's not worth it.
00:21:57
Speaker
So, yeah. It's just, you know, maybe, maybe like you can, you could like gift that to someone or like when you're ready to propose to someone else or whatever. like I don't, yeah.
00:22:14
Speaker
Someone told me to give it to my kids and I said, that's weird. Yeah. i I actually i got i got a divorce ring. i was I sold it in order to pay for Taya's wedding ring.
00:22:27
Speaker
Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. I think I got like $800 for it or something. and That's pretty good. It wasn't too bad. Yeah, that's pretty good. thank yeah um yeah Okay, maybe it wasn't that much. that sounds That actually sounds way too good. It might have been like two or something.
00:22:40
Speaker
It was probably like a quarter carat diamond. um And yeah. Yeah. And now she doesn't even wear the ring that I bought. I literally never wear mine. Like, it's... I don't know.
00:22:54
Speaker
I just feel like... I'm like... I ah act married, so I wear it. But when I'm doing my makeup and stuff, I don't... It's a common thing, I think.
00:23:07
Speaker
You know, and that's... she She always just... Well, I think that's the thing. Guys always wear their wedding ring. If they don't, always... like going on there why why aren't you wearing your wedding ring But girls, I mean, they I feel like they're looking for every excuse to not wear it. like they're like no like Whenever Taya washes her hands, she always picks it off. I don't wear everything. Like, oh, yeah, i was but I had to wash my hands.
00:23:28
Speaker
And i just left it on the calendar for, like, a week.
00:23:33
Speaker
Oh, is that what it is? On the calendar for a week, I guess. And, okay, so let's move let's move into marriage relationships. Yeah. um I should say...
00:23:46
Speaker
um when i did the first episode we put a poll up on instagram i said you know anyone who was with me during this era who do you guys want to see the unanimous response was you guys you're kidding i am not i and i don't know if you like why do you think that is Like, why why do you, I think people wanted us on the podcast? I mean, that was like, I was getting people in the mainland, people back in Hawaii, people still involved in the church.
00:24:17
Speaker
That was like, I wouldn't say unanimous. Okay, not everyone did it. But it was, the predominant response was, talk to the McDonald's. That's crazy. oh Well, I personally think we have the most wow wild story.
00:24:33
Speaker
Like, we've been through so much. And, like, in a sense, like, so we're not in church right now. We don't even know where our faith stands. Like, it's not really, like,
00:24:48
Speaker
are a thing as much anymore for us. oh But like, I don't know, when you go through solid changes like that, it's almost like, oh, is this couple gonna last? Because our main foundation was being pastors, planting a church, like having children, leading them in Christ. Like that was our mindset, like when we left Hawaii.
00:25:14
Speaker
And I think we probably made the most dramatic change throughout the years. I mean, my personal story is very dramatic, um, in general, but us like, so we left Hawaii and the plan was we're gonna spend some time in Texas.
00:25:35
Speaker
We're gonna leave there in a few weeks and we're going to go plant a church in chicago that was like the plan and obviously we're not in Chicago or planting a church.
00:25:47
Speaker
So maybe that's why. i don't know. i think it's maybe the most curious because i
00:25:56
Speaker
we're still together and we pretty much don't have that same foundation when we first got married. ah Yeah. No. And I think, I mean, it's like, I don't think people are necessarily, it's like, Ooh, what's the tea?
00:26:09
Speaker
Because honestly, I mean, you know, we, we all, love you guys and we i mean we loved you guys and i don't know i was just thinking about your wedding and how much of a privilege it was for us to go and i felt so honored because there wasn't that many people felt the same about your guys wedding were you at our wedding yeah that is that is kind of wild that was pretty small yeah okay yeah that's awesome i didn't know you were there well i don't think it was at the ceremony one of the students Yeah, I wasn't at the ceremony, I think. Yeah, I think that was like five people, though.
00:26:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think I was at the reception. Yes. Dude, that's awesome. I'm so glad you were there. Yeah, cause i mean we were yeah because that was like first semester. we were yeah ring before spring of freshman year.
00:26:56
Speaker
ex was supposed to come with me. That's why the student came with me. But he was like, I'm not going. Because we had a core group of friends. And that person may come on the podcast at some point. Not your ex-fiance, but the other person that was in our friend group.
00:27:10
Speaker
And I invited all of you guys. And it was kind of like, oh, freshman Bible college students, whatever. Okay, yeah. But yeah, so I mean, we I felt so privileged to to be at your guys' wedding.
00:27:21
Speaker
And I think we all had a sense that there was a lot of hurt involved. And I think the only reason we can sort of infer that is because you guys had a very clear...
00:27:39
Speaker
vision i guess and i mean that that that was you articulated that to us pretty clearly that you guys were going to church plant in chicago um how did that even come about also um gabe pretty much well i always felt like
00:28:02
Speaker
We were, i but I never felt like I was going to stay in Hawaii my whole life. So I always knew that I was going to make it to the mainland at one point. um But Gabe had like a specific dream or vision and like he felt like God was telling him to go to Illinois and plant a church.
00:28:26
Speaker
So that's pretty, and from there from there, he got his license, and then we were just gearing up after that.
00:28:38
Speaker
You guys got, he got a license in the denomination? Yeah. Huh, I don't think I knew that. Okay. Okay, so you guys are going to to plant out of the denomination that we're all part of, um and then that that was sort of the vision.
00:28:56
Speaker
yeah um i don't know if we were we were gonna like our idea wasn't out of that specific church like with that name but it was like in the same like the actual like denomination yeah yeah okay i i don't think i knew that okay i thought it was just so obviously the wheels fall off at some point in that um We could talk about that however you want, but i what what do what do you what do you sort of, so you go from having this very clear vision of what your lives are gonna look like ah to not only ah complete departure from that um that vision, but also ah departure ah somewhat, whatever that looks like for you now, from your faith at that that point.
00:29:55
Speaker
what What do you kind of attribute that to? So we were connect so
00:30:03
Speaker
we were connected with, I can't even remember what it's called, but we went to the that the denomination conference and then we got connected to the overseer of that area's
00:30:19
Speaker
I really don't know what they call them anymore. I kind of like the Midwest, like a regional. Yes. Like he was the head. and so we got connected and like we were in Texas just waiting, like, okay, let's just like serve at a church in Chicago and like see what Chicago is about. Cause like, I think it's personally, I think it's so ridiculous to go and plant a church of an area that you literally know nothing about.
00:30:49
Speaker
so i was like, I'm not going in there and like, telling those people what they need what they need when I don't even know. so like the plan was to work at a church there first.
00:31:01
Speaker
So we were waiting for this this call, this we'll get you a job at this kind of church thing. um And we looked up a church in San Antonio that was in the same denomination and we ended up getting so connected there.
00:31:17
Speaker
um We let them know our plan and they were like, okay, let us help you with that. um So I was actually in the process of getting my license through that church.
00:31:29
Speaker
um And we were serving in the youth ministry at the time. It was just so, don't know. I don't know if you've experienced this, but when I thought all the churches, because I've only been at our church in Hawaii. Like, of course I've been like, I was serving at a satellite one, but like the vines are all the same. So in my mind, i was like, oh, all of this denomination churches are going to feel the same.
00:31:57
Speaker
And it really wasn't. and it was such a shock to me. um But we were serving and we were trying really hard to like put this plan into motion and we kind of like just didn't get any answers from anyone.
00:32:15
Speaker
Like they kept saying like, yeah, we support you in this and yeah, we want to see this happen. And like we were, I think, 12.
00:32:25
Speaker
So we had been in Texas at four years at that point, like to when we like left, but like, I don't know, four years seems a long time to ah gear up for us or a church plant in my eyes, um or at least I felt at the time. And we kind of put a lot of our life on hold to support the church in San Antonio.
00:32:48
Speaker
oh And we had to,
00:32:56
Speaker
I know remember, but I'm a crier, so I'm going to have to. No, yeah, go for it.
00:33:05
Speaker
Wow, this was a long time ago, but it's still. Yeah. um Something happened to where we were not okay with the pastor's actions, and we called it out. Yeah.
00:33:23
Speaker
And it pretty much backfired onto us and they questioned our character.
00:33:29
Speaker
Um,
00:33:36
Speaker
and that just like flipped our world upside down. Like,
00:33:42
Speaker
um, yeah, we got questioned a lot of who, like who we are i was like christ believeers as like as like youth men like helping out the youth and all that stuff and you're like okay well we're done we're done at this place and we had like literally no plan like our plan was relying on that church to gear us up to church plant and it like just stopped and
00:34:20
Speaker
So yeah, and we just like didn't know what to do for a while. And so pretty much,
00:34:31
Speaker
I don't know, as someone who experienced that severe of a church hurt, couldn't find myself to go back to church for a while.
00:34:42
Speaker
I actually
00:34:45
Speaker
I wasn't, I wasn't trying to go to church, but one of our friends visited and they're like, oh, by the way, like, we're gonna, not by the way, but they're like, we're gonna go to church first, if you don't mind.
00:34:57
Speaker
So I literally went to church for the first time this past spring, think it was spring. Yeah. So it had been since 2020. So like five years haven't been in church for a while.
00:35:09
Speaker
well yeah yeah no i mean that's i mean yeah i it's the power dynamics in church leadership are so strange especially i mean people who yeah i mean obviously mean if you have grown up in the church and then you sort of see behind the curtain yeah how the sausage is made it's kind of gross like you have these people with huge God complexes that want to control everything.
00:35:46
Speaker
And when they, there's just a really hard time
00:35:54
Speaker
having any sort of accountability when you're in such a public and authoritative position in a church.
00:36:06
Speaker
And I think that context of a church matters. Because, yeah, everyone's had, like... crappy bosses in like a secular setting whatever like you know at a restaurant or an office job or whatever but the context of a church church just makes it that much more heinous because it becomes so much more hypocritical and it's like and it's not just this like professional relationship it's also this yeah like your whole life is connected yeah yeah
00:36:41
Speaker
yeah and i mean it sounds like like the second you tried holding up the mirror the the rug just gets pulled out from underneath you guys and yeah i mean there was a lot of things that we were like just there's just a lot of things that we like weren't used to like we didn't agree with and like it got we were actually at a summer camp when it happened and we're like this is not okay.
00:37:12
Speaker
Like, this is okay, especially in this setting. um, like, so yeah, it was when we got back, we like, like reported everything to like the senior leadership and, um, they were just like,
00:37:34
Speaker
okay, but this is what you did, and this is you. And, like, literally, we – they called us in for a meeting, and it was the whole – you know how, like, they have the pastoral team kind of thing?
00:37:47
Speaker
It was Gabe and I and the pastoral team, and, like, it was the most wild thing ever. Like – and, you know, like, the church, like, if they want you to –
00:38:05
Speaker
reconcile, like they want you to reconcile with people all the time.
00:38:11
Speaker
like we were, was the main thing is like, you say sorry to this person.
00:38:17
Speaker
And so they set up a meeting for us to meet with that person. And Gabe was like, yeah, I'm not doing that. And so I went into the meeting on my own.
00:38:34
Speaker
Sorry. And I apologize for...
00:38:43
Speaker
apologize for... don't know. I don't really know what I apologize for, but I remember apologizing, and it just didn't feel right.
00:38:56
Speaker
So we left.
00:38:59
Speaker
Like, you kind of felt like they sort of twisted your arm to where you had to apologize and you didn't even know necessarily what you were apologizing for in the moment? Yeah, because we were actually, like, defending somebody else.
00:39:14
Speaker
We were like, this is, like, you shouldn't treat somebody this way, like, especially when you're the head, like, of this ministry and we just don't feel like that's right.
00:39:25
Speaker
And, yeah, then we ended up apologizing, or I did.
00:39:33
Speaker
So, yeah, it was, it's,
00:39:37
Speaker
and don't, you, you guys visited Texas, right? When you guys? We were in, we would go up to Fort Worth. Yeah. So, like, I don't know, like, so us going back to church was so hard because, like,
00:39:52
Speaker
the churches in Texas are so like mega churchy. And I was like, I was so turned off by at that point. And I was like, there's no church for me here.
00:40:03
Speaker
Like kind of thing. So sorry. And I, I'm not trying to like pry into the specifics or whatever. But like, so you, you witnessed the pastor doing some, something to someone and then you're, you get called out.
00:40:22
Speaker
for doing something to someone, a different someone, or, like, a different situation altogether? Pretty much just, like, character-like things. Like, oh, I heard you had a problem with this pastor previously.
00:40:38
Speaker
So, like, did you address that ahead of time? like, so I think they maybe thought it was, like, Malicious? I don't know. a retaliatory thing.
00:40:50
Speaker
Like, you've just got a bone to pick with this guy, that's why you guys are causing such a stink. Looking back at it, yes. I think that's probably what they thought.
00:41:01
Speaker
Like, maybe we, like... were like causing drama and this is us being dramatic um but don't know if anybody knows my husband because he was the one where he was like i'm gonna say something my husband is not like he does not fly off the handle yeah and he doesn't want drama like he's not he's kind of yeah yeah like he will avoid that as much as possible so
00:41:34
Speaker
So, I mean, you guys witnessed something so much that stirs you up so much inside that you feel compelled to address it. And in doing so, like, your intention behind calling that out gets called out.
00:41:50
Speaker
And that's kind of... And so you have to go to apologize to the pastor now? Yeah. Like, they were like... we're going to set up this meeting, we're going have a mediator.
00:42:04
Speaker
like, they kind of wanted us to reflect, I guess. like, some of it's a little blurry. I don't really remember like whole ton because maybe because I blacked it out.
00:42:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's a problem. Yeah. So was like, um, yeah, so they, they, and it was like,
00:42:26
Speaker
It was repetitive behavior of like, this is uncomfortable and weird, the way that you speak and talk to people as a leader of these people.
00:42:40
Speaker
Like, I'm just not... okay with it. And I don't, the church that we were in Hawaii, like apologizing was such a big thing. don't know if remember, one of the camps that we went to, like before we went to the camp, they had like a little thing for us and they're like, okay, don't go into this camp, like with unresolved issues.
00:43:02
Speaker
And so like, everyone was like apologizing to each other before the camp. So like, do you remember, I think we were both leaders. We were both cabin leaders at the time. I remember cabin leading.
00:43:14
Speaker
I don't know if, and I was actually talking to Taya about this. I don't know if I cabin led like opposite you where you were leading. We were on the same team. We were. Okay. That's what was wondering. Yeah.
00:43:25
Speaker
I remember, I remember that I've been sick all week and my, I sound like Anglo-Saxon Ben Shapiro or something, but I remember that camp because we were winning a game And the other team cheated.
00:43:43
Speaker
And you and I got so pissed off for our students. Like, was this epic scavenger hunt game at night, in the dark.
00:43:55
Speaker
And we were solving puzzles to get to different locations. And... another team figured out you could just follow the winning team to each new location instead of actually having to do the challenges.
00:44:11
Speaker
And was pissed, but you like confronted the leaders and you're like, what the heck, guys? Like, what are you guys doing? Like, you can't do that.
00:44:23
Speaker
You're just too dumb to figure this out. Oh my gosh. So my, when I was at summer camp, my cabin leader, Oh my gosh, I just remember so much apologizing.
00:44:35
Speaker
But my cabin leader got upset at a game and was like, I had to apologize to this person because I felt like I was getting competitive. And so I kind of mirror sometimes.
00:44:49
Speaker
I mirror people like, oh, this feels right. So was like, what the heck, guys?
00:44:58
Speaker
Just match that energy. Match that energy. Well, I'm also very competitive, so that's why I was like, okay, no more cabin leading because the games get the best of me.
00:45:09
Speaker
They really do. There have been full-on almost fistfights at those games. Yeah. I mean, it's between leaders, not even students. This happened, so I actually helped out at camp in Texas, and I had to check myself because I was getting so competitive, and after that, was like, yeah, no more participating in these games.
00:45:34
Speaker
Like, I was so competitive, so I was like, dang, gotta tone it down. Dude, that was, yeah, it was a good time.
00:45:45
Speaker
still, I tried, so I did college ministry after grad school, and I would try and do games like that, and they were just, like, too cool for it.
00:45:56
Speaker
I'm like, where the energy? Where is the, where is the energy? Like, they're all cheating. They're all like, oh, yeah, whatever. I'm like, no, you have to pop the balloon with your butt.
00:46:09
Speaker
Like, that's the way you have to pop the balloon. You have to aim the dodgeball at their head. Like, that's, at work, they're having, like, team member appreciation.
00:46:21
Speaker
And, like, there's a dodgeball thing. And, like, of course, Gabe and I work at the same place. And, um... We were like, should we sign up for it? And I literally just had flashbacks of how competitive I got during summer camp.
00:46:34
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, I'm not going to let anybody at work see this side of me. Dude, Dodgeball, I mean, it's kind of, I feel like the people who know, know.
00:46:45
Speaker
Like, the more episodes we have, Dodgeball has already come up in two different episodes. Malia's episode, we talked about it, and Shawnee. Like, people have no idea how invested we were into Dodgeball.
00:46:57
Speaker
And it was a weekly thing that we were doing, taking over the entire park. Yeah, I felt like it happened weekly at the park and at the church.
00:47:09
Speaker
And somehow we also did Frisbee golf or what do they call that? Ultimate Frisbee. Ultimate Frisbee. I remember that. That's how your husband ended up on the map.
00:47:23
Speaker
Because he comes you know, little late to the game. And he's like six foot something and is a beast at throwing frisbees.
00:47:34
Speaker
And I think we had just gotten into Ultimate Frisbee. And he's just like, oh, yeah, you just throw it like this across the entire field. And his whole family plays it. And we're like, yeah.
00:47:45
Speaker
Okay. So we were all like, what a legend. Oh my gosh. So I think that's how we all were so hype on him when he first came through.
00:47:57
Speaker
But yeah, we were very gamey back then. Yeah. I tried doing a dodgeball tournament in the campus ministry, and they were like, meh. And we had to cancel it because no one cared.
00:48:07
Speaker
I'm like, you guys suck, honestly. Where did the spirit go for the dodgeball? What? What are you going to Write papers? Like, give me a break. They said study hall.
00:48:19
Speaker
Study hall the move. I don't know. I don't know. Okay, sorry. I derailed this with my camp game comment. We were talking about rug getting pulled out from underneath you in a ministry.
00:48:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's... I would want to leave too, think, at that point. So you're like... Because, yeah, I don't know.
00:48:47
Speaker
It's just like an abusive relationship almost. That's what it sort of sounds like. Like where you just get gaslighted. full tilt.
00:48:58
Speaker
It's actually your fault and you're the one who needs to apologize. And I can imagine that was, was it hard for, like in your mind, like going to apologize, did you feel like, like,
00:49:13
Speaker
Because I've had moments where I was the one apologizing when I shouldn't have been the one apologizing. And it was like, oh, no, I'm guilty. There's a lot Because I just have, like, all that sort of, like, shame. Yeah, yeah.
00:49:25
Speaker
Were you feeling, like, shame? Or was it, like, this reluctant kind of, I'm just doing this to men fences, whatever? felt so...
00:49:39
Speaker
I don't know. I actually don't know this is a thing, but I feel like I developed spiritual OCD or religious OCD to where if I didn't do something, this was going to happen to me.
00:49:55
Speaker
So I felt like if I didn't go into this meeting and if I didn't reconcile, going to die, kind of thing.
00:50:07
Speaker
so yeah i mean that i i'm not a psychologist but i do know quite a lot about ocd um that is yeah that's a pretty like hallmark feature of ocd of like these certain rituals being connected to like severe consequences like this like extreme like what might be called like scrupulosity like this feeling of like
00:50:32
Speaker
extreme introspection on one's sins and wrongdoings and how that can be the consequences of that. I mean, that's, yeah, that's, that's a pretty, I think, yeah, standard.
00:50:43
Speaker
Yeah. Or like something bad was going to happen. Like, I don't think I, I don't think my thought process was going to die, but had a really already developed that mindset back in Hawaii. And so like, just like,
00:50:56
Speaker
was mindset of purging, like, okay, if I don't get this out, then something bad's gonna happen to me. So, like, I guess the feeling that you're describing of, like, I feel so overwhelmed by all of this that, like, if I don't reconcile this and feel okay that something bad's gonna happen.
00:51:15
Speaker
So, yeah, that was... I didn't... I think a lot of it was I didn't feel...
00:51:25
Speaker
Like, I, it wasn't really of my own kind of thing. Like, I just felt like, oh, I'm doing something so wrong and, like, I'm being called out, so I must be the reason.
00:51:38
Speaker
Gabe has a stronger mindset to me, so that's why he didn't show up, but I, that's where my mind was at. Yeah, I mean, it sucks because, like, I don't, like, I've, yeah, I mean, that's a tough one because it's, like,
00:51:55
Speaker
in the moment, mean, you look back on those types of moments and you're like so angry at yourself for doing something. Like, why did I kind of bend the knee in this way?
00:52:07
Speaker
But in the moment, you're just so caught up because I've had those moments where it's just like, I mean, obviously, not to the same extent, but like when you're apologizing for something like, it wasn't your fault, you know, and this clearly wasn't your fault.
00:52:22
Speaker
Yeah, there was a ton of things that happened after the fact that really solidified us not going back to church. Like them collecting statements from people that were false statements to put on like a file.
00:52:38
Speaker
And like they were so connected with the denomination that Gabe and I were like, we can never work at church again. And that's all we knew. yeah, it was pretty crazy.
00:52:53
Speaker
So, I mean, you guys get, like, blacklisted in the denomination because of this instance of calling the pastor. Yeah. It's what it, in my eyes, it's what it felt like.
00:53:04
Speaker
Like, it was kind like, they, I mean, they still tried to reach out and stuff and were, like, I don't know. It was just, like, the weirdest thing. Like, the kids of the ministry would reach out and, like, send us upset texts and, like,
00:53:22
Speaker
They, like, fully changed the narrative, and we were, like, okay. Like, they, we just knew that they were so connected that, like, there's no way.
00:53:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, like,
00:53:39
Speaker
what, yeah, what are you supposed to do? Yeah, that's where we were at. We were, what are we supposed to do? Like, we, when you have such a clear vision, and, like, When you think that this is what you're supposed to do is like plant a church.
00:53:53
Speaker
Okay, like this church is helping us we'll stay here. And like, all of a sudden, nothing. And that's when Gabe and I were like, so lost. And like, dude, what are we kind of like, what are we without the church kind of thing?
00:54:08
Speaker
Because we've never really... like as a couple never been outside the church. He personally had never been outside the church at all in his life because he grew up in the church. I almost felt worse for him because I was like, you don't know what it's like to not be involved.
00:54:24
Speaker
So that's even more of a change for you. Yeah, 100%. I mean, and I mean, to some extent, like guys, like your relationship sort of bound up in your involvement in being a church, in being in church.
00:54:40
Speaker
um i mean does that affect you you guys like the way i mean mean are you guys having to like face that after the fact too we just in it together honestly would say that this is gonna sound kind of cringy but i feel like the most that i believe in god is because of but Gabe and I's relationship, like, the most that we've taken out of it is, like, the, like, know the church talks about the oneness and being of the same mind and all of that, and, like, although we're not in the church, Gabe and I have moved almost always the same.
00:55:23
Speaker
Like, we're pretty much at the same mindset. I, for some reason, I don't know how. I don't know why. can't really speak to it in a way, but...
00:55:36
Speaker
It's not like one of us were trying to go to church and one of us wasn't. Like, we never experienced that separate pool. Like, yeah. No, I mean, I think that makes perfect sense.
00:55:48
Speaker
And... Yeah, I mean, yeah, I totally see that. And I mean, because you guys, when I remember you sharing your testimony at the Young Adult Ministry, when you did preach that that night when we first talked about, like, it was so clear how much that love that you guys had for each other really reflected jesus like i think when people saw i remember crying at your wedding i like i'm i i yeah a hundred percent like and i it was when you walked out and i saw gabe crying and i'm like
00:56:28
Speaker
oh, that's amazing. Like, this is, at that point, I was like, this is the coolest wedding I've ever been Just because of me. Like, I, honestly, I'm thinking about it now, just getting chills, because it was just so cool how much, like, I had known what you had gone through, and I knew how much Gabe cared for you.
00:56:46
Speaker
And, no, it was, like, that's why I really. my gosh, I'm tearing up. So sweet. sweet.
00:56:54
Speaker
Yeah, I like, I don't know. I have no idea what it is. It's so funny because we experienced so much or I felt like we experienced so much backlash when we first started dating because if I'm being honest, I think it was like maybe a month after I got unengaged.
00:57:13
Speaker
Oh, really? it was very soon after, like I was like, Gabe and I went on a date after I was telling myself I'm not dating anybody, For some reason, just like, okay, let's hang out.
00:57:30
Speaker
But yeah, I literally cannot explain Gabe and I's relationship at all. Because it's like, I don't know, just works.
00:57:43
Speaker
It's so funny because a lot of people are like, how did you guys... move through all these things. And still, I feel like if anybody else were to have gone through literally like all that we've gone through, like if they didn't move in the same mindset, like they would have gotten a divorce.
00:58:03
Speaker
And so like, I have no explanation to it. We've never been to couple counseling, like nothing. Yeah. I mean, that happens. Like people, you know, they're, I mean, and even when the stakes are much lower, like You just, you know, like change jobs.
00:58:20
Speaker
Like the second, like that thing of identity changes, the relationships just get completely thrown out of whack. No, I mean, that's, that's a hundred percent what it is though.
00:58:30
Speaker
Okay. So the interesting thing is like, when I talk to you now, I feel like we are back in our church coffee shop and we're talking about faith like I feel like you have lot of the same mean just the way you're talking now it sounds like you have lot of the same beliefs and convictions and feelings but at the same you're telling me that a lot has changed and I mean obviously you don't go to church like that like a lot has changed in that sense but it sounds like
00:59:11
Speaker
you're very much the same. mean, obviously I'm not saying you're the same, like you didn't change at all you didn't grow. It sounds like you're the same person in some sense.
00:59:22
Speaker
And I think for a lot of people that might be strange. Yeah.
00:59:29
Speaker
I feel like we grew up in the church with some really good people. principles. Like, I still, because I'm in leadership at my work now, and I still believe in servant leadership, like, all of those same principles are just, I think they taught really good things.
00:59:51
Speaker
Like, I don't think that lot of it was wrong. actually don't, I mean, I have some, obviously some bad memories from Hawaii, but like, a lot of the core values, I guess, in a way, like,
01:00:08
Speaker
I was just having this thought I was like, if Gabe and I have kids, I feel like I still want to raise them in the way that we are. Like, we may not be Christian or like talk about God, but I feel like a lot of what we have now
01:00:30
Speaker
I don't know. I just feel like a lot of it's like you're a good human with those kind of principles. And I feel like that will always be a part of me, like, especially amount of years that I've been there.
01:00:43
Speaker
Um, I still think that like having a oneness in your marriage is still like a really good concept.
01:00:53
Speaker
Like a lot of the church concepts in my eyes are like great. Um,
01:01:01
Speaker
Like, don't know. Does that make sense? No, I kind of see what you're saying. I mean, on the surface, yeah, there's like these sorts of moral lessons around how one should conduct themselves in the world, but also...
01:01:21
Speaker
emulating christian values in certain areas of leadership and raising your kids whatever without necessarily explicitly connecting that to um the person and work of jesus christ or god or the scriptures or yeah yeah like i still think community is really great i still think surrounding yourself with people was great.
01:01:53
Speaker
Like, I, a lot of the concepts of everything is still like, I think that's, I mean, that's what originally attracted me to going to church was just the community base and like how everyone operated together.
01:02:10
Speaker
so, I mean, specifically in like the whole Hawaii church, like that, I don't know, I felt like was really good. I'm not sure why it's—I don't know how to explain why it feels like I still believe, maybe?
01:02:28
Speaker
I don't know. you not feel like you're a believer? do you not believe? I don't know what I believe this point. Like, I have—I believe that there's a God.
01:02:39
Speaker
Like, I don't not believe in a God.
01:02:46
Speaker
I struggled in Bible college. I struggled with the Bible. I was like, okay, this is going to be like crazy. Cause everyone loves Paul. But I was like, dude, Paul seems so rude.
01:02:57
Speaker
Like in my eyes, like he was seemed really harsh when I read the Bible. And I was like, I don't, this is crazy that they rely on this guy so heavily. Like there's like certain like narratives in there that I was like, I'm trying to take something out of this, but I'm like,
01:03:15
Speaker
This seems so intense and harsh compared to like what they're saying that God is. kind of thing. Yeah. So like I already struggled with the Bible at times.
01:03:29
Speaker
So I really like I think I'm still trying to figure that out five years later post not going to church of my belief system.
01:03:39
Speaker
But I think a lot of what it is is my comfortability with myself. Like I think I didn't like myself a lot. going to church, I felt like we've reflected so much of like, what can you change about yourself?
01:03:55
Speaker
Like, what do you need God to work on within you? Like, I feel like we didn't celebrate ourselves as much. Um, or at least I didn't feel like we did. Like, I felt like there was so much like reflection that I needed to do.
01:04:09
Speaker
And now I just feel like, oh, I'm like going to celebrate me. And maybe that's what I'm emulating. What do you think we were celebrating back then?
01:04:22
Speaker
The church. Yeah. Like, just the... I don't know. The church, I don't know.
01:04:33
Speaker
I really don't know what we were... I don't know. It's very different from the satellite church. I still adore love the pastor from the satellite church.
01:04:45
Speaker
I have no... Like, I think he's, like, the perfect... of
01:04:52
Speaker
who I believed God is, you know what I mean? He really showed so much love and grace. And so in that, he celebrated, but growing up, I don't know.
01:05:10
Speaker
In Bible college, I just felt like
01:05:15
Speaker
I didn't like myself
01:05:19
Speaker
and that I had to work on things, and yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's almost this, yeah, I mean, I kind of felt the same way.
01:05:30
Speaker
It's like we're having, like, conferences and services just to sort of, like, celebrate this institution that we all were sort of behind closed doors kind of always pointing out things that were completely toxic and wrong.
01:05:52
Speaker
But at the same time, we're having to sort of put forth this production to celebrate everything that's happening and everything that we're doing and make it to be something way more edifying and fulfilling than it actually yeah yeah and i don't know there there there seems to be and shawnee and i kind of talked about this that we never really understood what we were doing and who we were serving in ministry like we were sort of serving we were at the service of programs and not people or god perhaps
01:06:41
Speaker
Yeah, because I feel like the amount that we were serving, it's like, I don't think I actually attended service for myself, like ever.
01:06:54
Speaker
I think a lot of it was like serving and not cleaning anything from the actual service. Like that was happening. It was all work-based, I felt like.
01:07:11
Speaker
So, I mean, like, even now, I feel like you have this sort of... I don't know. Maybe I'm misreading the situation completely.
01:07:21
Speaker
But the way you talk about church, you clearly are pointing to something that was wrong back then and that you know is wrong now.
01:07:33
Speaker
But seems like even now, you kind of are grounding that in some sort of objective and transcended truth.
01:07:48
Speaker
would you, I mean, like, call that God, or would you call, like, what do you call that sort of appeal that you have now, I guess?
01:08:01
Speaker
Like, to, like, my reflection back into when I was in church, or, like, now? Like, now, I guess. Well, don't, I think part of me will always want to believe because of the fact that, like,
01:08:17
Speaker
If I don't, I still don't know what's going to happen to me after. Like, I'm not in the ideal of when we grew up. Like, would have to restate that I believe in Jesus Christ or else I'm going to go hell.
01:08:34
Speaker
Like, I think part of me... Sorry. No, you're good. Is it catching it? It did for like a split second. Okay.
01:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like, I don't know, I think a part of me wants to believe. I think part of really enjoys the community was there.
01:08:59
Speaker
maybe have faith in the community that was built more than, and the connection and the relationships built, than the religion, I guess.
01:09:12
Speaker
I don't know, I feel, I have like really fond memories of
01:09:17
Speaker
the community that was there. I find it hard to find something like that anywhere else.
01:09:24
Speaker
I said the exact same thing to Malia. was like, I've been in the mainland since 2019. I don't feel like I've made single friend that I can like, obviously I have some friends here, but there's nothing like that group that we all had i mean i still like i was just on the phone with like one of my best friends from that era yesterday for like an hour and we're talking about like like it's so hard for me to move on from that yeah i i think this i feel the same way like um
01:10:09
Speaker
We got visited someone, by a couple that was a part of the church and that we were very close with back in May, maybe.
01:10:22
Speaker
But I don't know. just was like, man, this connection, like no matter the fact that I'm in church or not is such a good connection. Like, and we got visited by another couple when we were in Texas and I was like, man, like,
01:10:40
Speaker
I felt so at peace. So maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's the connections and relationships is what
01:10:52
Speaker
I see, like the reflection of God in people maybe. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I think that's 100% what it is, right? Like, sorry. I've been so sick all week.
01:11:06
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Even at the wedding, were sick? I caught it at the wedding. Oh my gosh. And I was, I started feeling the symptoms while we were out there. I'm like, I don't know how I have allergies on a beach right now.
01:11:20
Speaker
It's always the allergies. It's always that thought of like an allergy. And then we drove home the next day, 10 hour drive. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, you guys.
01:11:32
Speaker
Yeah. We always drive. So it's, it's like North Florida to Virginia. And, um, I got home. I was so nasty to Taya the whole ride back.
01:11:43
Speaker
I was just so mean. And my sisters are in the backseat. And I'm just like, so mean about everything like where we want to eat i'm like this place sucks whatever i'm just so nasty and then i get home and i'm like laying on our bed i'm like i'm so sorry like this is and i was telling i'm like i promise this was the hardest physical feat i've ever done my life like driving this car for 10 hours while just dying like i've never this is the hardest thing i've ever done and my wife's like
01:12:17
Speaker
he's like yeah i bet you think that i bet i bet you do something i'm like all right okay all right oh my gosh but um yeah that's who i kept from that era and she's still with me to this to this day which is great um no yeah but um Sorry, I sidetracked this with my cop.
01:12:46
Speaker
That's where that all started. Yeah, no, so I guess that's kind of where, I mean, that's the whole thing with this show.
01:12:56
Speaker
It's like, where are all these people?
01:13:07
Speaker
Do you feel like you'll ever come back to it? Or what would it take for... It sounds like I'm like, you know, I brought you here to... What would it take to come back to church?
01:13:21
Speaker
We need you... Repeat after me real quick. Everyone close your eyes hands in front of you. If this is you...
01:13:32
Speaker
I'm need you to come up to the stage. That the worst. I'm going to need you to come up to the stage if this is you right now. I'm like, I don't want to get up and let everyone know what I'm going through.
01:13:42
Speaker
I hate that. I went to one where they had this guitarist who did that kind of thing. His whole thing was that he played guitar.
01:13:54
Speaker
He would preach while playing guitar.
01:13:57
Speaker
They paid him to come. He was like... all right, I'm sensing someone in the crowd, and he starts saying these crazy things, and then people are having to walk up and identify themselves with that.
01:14:14
Speaker
And I think the last one was like, there's someone out there who just dealing with alcoholism so severe that it is like damaging his relationship with his, and the guy just starts like running up.
01:14:32
Speaker
It's me. I'm like, I hated that part because I was like, don't know half of these people in here and I don't feel like need to know what's going on in my life. Like that's crazy.
01:14:45
Speaker
I, you know, the other thing was like every kid was always raising their hand like every week. And we'd be like, oh, we had like 200 salvations at camp this past weekend.
01:14:57
Speaker
And it's like, yeah, every kid raised their hand. Like, what are you supposed – like, if that's you, if you want to follow Jesus tonight, like, raise your hand.
01:15:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And it's kind of like a – like, because people are going to look at you if you're not raising your hand. it's like – I remember looking around.
01:15:21
Speaker
I only did when I was doing production or something, like sound, because then I felt like, okay, I get to peep behind the curtain a little bit. But when I was in the moment, was just like, no, I just got to honor that and pray for them.
01:15:33
Speaker
It's not I don't think I ever did. I was like, oh, no, no, no. I was always like, ugh. i'm like i'm like i don't know it's the perks of being a uh someone that sits in the back all the time like you just like see everything i like almost never sat in the front the only time i did was when we were assisted pastors at the satellite church oh really kind of yeah i'm like i hate sitting up here it's so
01:16:02
Speaker
check out my wife
01:16:06
Speaker
Sean, he said that and I thought about Gabe because I know his butt said that and I was like, bro, he still says that to this day as a joke. Smoking hot wife.
01:16:17
Speaker
Yeah, I'm like, can't.
01:16:21
Speaker
It is, like, a universal thing. I mean, like, someone called me about it, and they're like, did you really, like, talk about that when you went to seminary? I was like, yes. We, like, had a class, and we read a book, and one of the chapters in the book was the smoking hot life and how the pastor's life kind of became thing.
01:16:40
Speaker
A thing? Oh, that's, like, that's actually really interesting. Yeah, I mean, was, like, a universal thing, and I would tell people about because they're all from, like, old school Methodist churches, they don't really get that.
01:16:52
Speaker
And I'm like, oh no, it's, it's totally. Yeah. It's like a vocation at this point. Like they're, they're basically past, like almost all of them are basically pastors now, like in their own way. Yeah.
01:17:03
Speaker
It's kind of like being the president's wife in a way. And actually some churches, they do call the pastor's wife, the first lady. That's, that was something that I discovered when I was a student intern pastor in grad school, that like, that was a thing that,
01:17:18
Speaker
some really involved spouses would do. They would kind of call themselves the first lady. That's lovely. Yeah. You know, we're all just looking for a purpose.
01:17:30
Speaker
We're all just looking for that. Yeah. Okay, well, I think we got a pretty good grasp of where you've been and where you're at.
01:17:41
Speaker
Is there anything you felt like you feel like you would want to I think everyone wanted to hear from you. I think that's the thing. I think everyone, we all, it's not like I'm super connected.
01:17:56
Speaker
I live the furthest away from everyone, basically. But I think everyone was really curious about and cared about lot, where you guys were.
01:18:09
Speaker
don't know. Do you have any thoughts or things you might want to say to those people, I guess? Um, well, I've been home a couple of times and every like chance, cause the, the person that I see the most often, like will always invite me over to like all the things.
01:18:27
Speaker
And she's obviously still like, you know, knows everyone at home. So like every time I go over, everyone treats me the same. Like almost not like, not like this.
01:18:40
Speaker
It's not awkward, I guess, but I feel like, um, I'll always hold everyone in a very like special place in my heart. Shadi and I were actually roommates at one point.
01:18:54
Speaker
so like, I don't, I don't know. I just love everyone. And like back to the question of what will it take me to get to church? I, I honestly have no idea, I feel like a lot of people in Hawaii are,
01:19:11
Speaker
I don't know. The community sense is really good. So even if you're in church, I feel like that reflection community was like the best.
01:19:21
Speaker
And like as someone that's not in the church, I still hold that very high, highly. Like as if people really cared kind of thing. But yeah.
01:19:33
Speaker
Yeah. I like that'll always be like your experience of Christ will always be kind of bound up in those relationships.
01:19:43
Speaker
Yeah, because like the amount of stuff that we went through, well, that I went through, was like, dang, I'm going to be looked at so weird. I'm unengaged in a very public relationship.
01:19:56
Speaker
And I was like, dude, people are going to be so weird towards me. And no one, I mean, no one did. People asked questions and was like, oh, I kind of love this open dialogue kind of thing.
01:20:07
Speaker
So yeah, if anybody's curious,
01:20:12
Speaker
they can DM me, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. I'm still like open to all those relationships regardless if I believe in the same things that everyone else believes.
01:20:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and honestly, I think a lot of people, I think we're going to find out that a lot of people are in that same position.
01:20:36
Speaker
I think the first person who said I should be talking to you guys is in that position. But actually, I think everyone else who said to speak with you guys are people who left church completely, which is kind of interesting.
01:20:48
Speaker
And that's been a lot of the listeners who have reached out are people who said, like, they're just not involved anymore. Yeah, that's... I can't even think of who... don't know, maybe I just don't keep up well, but in my eyes, everyone is still in the church.
01:21:09
Speaker
don't know. Yeah, and maybe they're like, oh, you should hear their story, and maybe they know it. Okay, yeah. Yeah, no.
01:21:20
Speaker
But I'm glad we did. I'm glad we got to sit down and... Yeah, the first crier, I feel like... Probably, probably. feel like if anybody remembers me, I did cry a lot, though.
01:21:32
Speaker
I'm ashamed about that. No, that's awesome. I mean, it's great. Thank you for sharing all those things that you were laying it all out there.
01:21:42
Speaker
I mean, it's been good. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. It's been, I mean, I've been listening to the episodes just to kind of, at first when you like mentioned it, was like, going to say yes.
01:21:53
Speaker
Cause I, I'm always open to conversation. but then I was like, oh, is everyone still in the church? And then I started listening, but I, I didn't feel like, you know, judgment in a way.
01:22:06
Speaker
So I really appreciate it. Like, I felt like it's cool to still be seen. even though I'm not in that same realm anymore. Yeah, I think, like, we all will always have that thing that we all had together, if that makes sense.
01:22:25
Speaker
Like, I see it my relationship with Taya. Like, it's like, we're always going to be those 16-year-old kids, but we're always, like, now we're those, you know, 29-year-old kids that, you know, stuck it out all these years later.
01:22:40
Speaker
Like, we always have that, that thing from that era. We sound like a, um, you know when people, watching like this one show, and it's like looking back on a, like, an era and love of your life, and I feel like at times it sounds like that.
01:23:00
Speaker
Like, oh, this will, you know when, um, in the office when Andy Dwyer's like, this is the good old times and gold yeah yeah yeah what does he say but i don't know that's how i feel exactly you know like um what does he say oh my gosh i'm just gonna look it up because it's such a good i feel like don't know this is like you don't know if you're in the good times until you've already left it i know you're in the good old days
01:23:36
Speaker
before you've actually left them. Yeah, that's exactly like, that's how feel. Yeah, yeah. I think there's always going to be that thing, that those summer camps, those, yeah.
01:23:54
Speaker
And we got so many years together. It wasn't just like these, you know, one-off type of deals. It was like, we got to all kind of grow up together a little bit and for however long it was and uh yeah and i don't know and and maybe there's something in that and i think you're kind of touching on that that's maybe transcendent and goes on and gets to survive uh yeah even this life and the next you know okay i think that's a good place to end now i'm gonna perfect all right later everyone and then