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#1 My Friend the (Now) Christian Ex-Cult Member - Kamahaʻo Fung
36 Plays9 months ago
Kamahaʻo Fung was born into a cult based in Honolulu. His family later converted to Christianity, and he was raised in an Evangelical church. He went to Bible college, led worship, and worked in that church while being a closeted gay man.
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Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, my name is Keegan Drummond. Welcome to the Sabbatical Saga. About 10 years ago, my wife and I were members of an evangelical church where we were leaders in a youth and young adult ministry.
00:00:15
Speaker
And we were surrounded by dozens of our friends and family who we had grown up with in Honolulu. And all of us together were on fire for Jesus Christ. And we wanted to see the world transformed by the power of the gospel.
00:00:35
Speaker
And i was preaching regularly. My wife was helping program services and camps. And our friends and me, I were ah pursuing education in a Bible college.
00:00:49
Speaker
And And thought we would be doing ministry forever. I thought that was going to be all of our life's missions.
00:01:00
Speaker
And over the years, we found out that was not the case. I did pursue further education in a Protestant seminary. in the mainland, um but I ended up becoming Roman Catholic along that journey.
00:01:15
Speaker
But several of my other friends who I grew up doing ministry with in that evangelical church in Hawaii ended up leaving the Christian faith altogether. However, some even stayed in that church and became pastors and leaders in that church to this day.
00:01:33
Speaker
I wanted to sit down with all of those folks from what seems like a past life now and see you what happened in their life. Because I know a lot of things happened in my life and there were a lot of changes.
Purpose of the Podcast
00:01:49
Speaker
and i want to find out what happened back then that kept us on fire and what changed my first guest is probably the one of the best examples of that my friend kamaha o feng who was a worship leader in this church and we served together in ministry for years We were members of the same small group that I led while I was in Bible college, and he is no longer part of that church.
00:02:22
Speaker
um You're going to notice that him and i never mention the name of the the church or the colleges that we attended, and that is intentional.
00:02:33
Speaker
um you know If you know us, you know exactly what church and what college that is. um You might even know some of the people we reference, and You know, my heart isn't to to gossip or to air out dirty laundry. My heart is to tell real stories and to um catch up with my friends in an authentic way.
00:02:58
Speaker
So this is the first episode. Enjoy. Yeah, i so I posted um but thing on Instagram. And there was a lot of interest. People were pretty excited. I tried to make it as clickbaity as possible, I think.
00:03:13
Speaker
And there were people who ah knew you and didn't know who I was talking about. They're like, whoa, who is part of the LGBTQ plus community? And was it a cult? Like,
00:03:26
Speaker
There are people that know you pretty well and they were saying, oh yeah, I forgot he was in a cult. um We've talked about that a couple of times briefly. Real quick. on i am I am just curious about it because you you left him fairly young, I think, is what I remember you telling
Kamaha'o's Childhood and Church Experiences
00:03:44
Speaker
me. but Yes.
00:03:46
Speaker
yeah But you you were in one as a young child before your family became Christian.
00:03:54
Speaker
Yes. So like, How do you define cult?
00:04:00
Speaker
That's a good question. I always say adding to or taking away from like ah salvation story of Jesus dying on the cross, raising again.
00:04:14
Speaker
i So, i mean, it is a cult. It is. So basically, it's like kind of like a stream of Mormonism. Okay.
00:04:25
Speaker
But it's all in Hawaiian. There's a church on the Big Island, and then there's a church here on Oahu. And um I guess the lore is that, like, um it's similar to Mormonism in the sense that, like, an angel came to this guy and, like, told him all this stuff.
00:04:50
Speaker
And so then he started this church and started on the Big Island. And so my grandpa, my dad's, my mom's dad, sorry, my mom's dad was a part of that, and so then my mom grew up there, because they had a church on the Big Island, and then they planted one here, and it was all in Hawaiian, and you sang hymns, so you sang, like, you know, biblical hymns, but they were all in Hawaiian, and then you, they teach you, like, gospel, like, the essentials of, like,
00:05:26
Speaker
reading the bible and like but they don't yeah i think it's all in hawaiian and then they read and then but they add to it the gospel right quote unquote what people believe as the gospel so they um so then when we were like when i was young um you go in you wear all white head to toe um you wear like and then you can't wear shoes you have to wear white socks And then the women have to wear like white nun veils kind of like, it's like a veil, like a short cotton nun kind of looking veil to cover their hair.
00:06:08
Speaker
And then we would, then we would wear these like rainbow hats basically. So it's like ah paper plate, like a triangle. And then they would put elastic around it and it was sequenced like gold. And then there was a rainbow. And I think,
00:06:27
Speaker
You get it when you're when you turn five because or seven because I had gotten mine, but I know that I started at my other church at eight years old.
00:06:40
Speaker
So you get this rainbow hat, headband, headpiece, and then um oh you sit in a room and there's like a a cylindrical lamp covered by foliage.
00:06:56
Speaker
and you have to meditate on this lamp. And then, and I don't even know how long it was. It was literally like a cylindrical like this, just imagine this, even the height, but a lamp, like a hydroflask, like a normal size hydroflask height probably.
00:07:15
Speaker
and it was just like a light, ah like a lamp. And then, um so we would meditate on that. Mind you, like this starts at like five in the morning, six in the morning.
00:07:29
Speaker
So like as a kid,
Cultural and Religious Influences
00:07:31
Speaker
there's no way like you're trying to stay awake and stare at a lamp. And because it's like a family church, like anyone had like free game to like give you spankings or whatever.
00:07:46
Speaker
So if you're falling asleep, you like get in trouble. but at the same time, I'm like, five or seven. so of course, I'm gonna be falling asleep at five in the morning.
00:07:59
Speaker
um So we yeah, and then after the service, they're like vegetarian. So I didn't realize this until later, they're vegetarian, we'd all have lunch together.
00:08:13
Speaker
and then though young people, so the kids, the like high school or junior hires, they would have, we would have to do all the dishes.
00:08:24
Speaker
And it would be like a big kitchen. Yeah, it's crazy. um And then we would do the dishes. And then while we're doing the dishes, the adults were packing kaki mochi.
00:08:43
Speaker
Or as like on the mainland, they would probably call it like mochi crunch or whatever. I don't think they know how much you're going to do. But yeah, like snacks. They're packing snacks. Well, like Japanese senbei, basically. Yeah, they were packing Japanese senbei crackers for this company, for Tomoi, the brand.
00:09:02
Speaker
Did Tomoi oversee the cult? No, they just would fundraise. So that was their fundraising. oh So to get paid, they were like, we had they had all the machinery and everything to like seal the bags.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of crazy. oh That's like a sweatshop.
00:09:23
Speaker
A little bit. Because another fundraiser, yeah, yeah. And then there's another fundraiser that they would do is they would sit at the Royal Hawaiian Shopping Center in Waikiki and literally count with a clicker um people are walking by how many people are coming into Royal Hawaiian Shopping Center.
00:09:45
Speaker
So I guess they would provide that data, and in turn, they would pay them. Interesting. So there's everything for all these different, I mean, through like data collection and packing kahimochi for Tomoe, but they're outsourcing the labor to Hawaiian families who are bought in on this lamp sort of cult thing.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yes. It is like when you say it out loud and you you like kind of digest like you know digest it you're like this is really weird. But like it's hard for my mom when I talk about this because she has like she has like really good memories of this place. Like her memories so she would spend like summers on the big island and she has like the best memories because it's like all of her cousins.
00:10:40
Speaker
So of course you're gonna have good memories. Whereas like us I we didn't have a lot of Like, we had people kind of maybe not really close in our age in Oahu. On the Big Island, we did have more. But, it yeah, we weren't, like, how my mom and her family was, like, so in it.
00:11:02
Speaker
um So that was from when I was born. So, like, before 1988 until probably
00:11:12
Speaker
four maybe or something 96 no 96 I think because that's when we went to the other church now what's really crazy is when we're in this church we would see across the street at the middle school the church that we would end up at and we'd be like the evangelical church and we would see it across the street and then we'd be like what is going on there um only till later that church moved to like a bigger space because it just started to grow rapidly and then when my mom got breast cancer
00:11:51
Speaker
um my my mom got breast cancer her auntie my grandma's sister um led her to like led her to Christ and like preached to her the gospel in like the fullness I guess like like without the, the added on stuff.
00:12:16
Speaker
And that's because she grew up, um, she grew up Christian because my grandma is the youngest of 14.
Youth Ministry and Evolving Faith
00:12:25
Speaker
And there's like so many of them that two of them grew up with another family.
00:12:31
Speaker
So she was able to grow up there. And this lady, she's like a really huge person in our family. Um,
00:12:42
Speaker
because she led my mom to Christ. um And so then after that, we started going to this that church across the street, but it had moved to a college campus. um And so then, yeah, we started going there.
00:12:59
Speaker
and then my parents started to work for the church. They would, we would, um we would do like, we would produce the tape cassettes.
00:13:10
Speaker
like Right. Back in the day. When everyone had tape cassettes and tape cassette players in their car, we would record the sermon. And we had these giant machines that would like make, they would be like copy them onto tape cassettes.
00:13:25
Speaker
And it was like four per machine, but we had like probably 10 machines.
00:13:32
Speaker
And we would duplicate it and pack it up and then sell it right away. so it was like, so my parents were doing that and they got hired on to do that. um
00:13:44
Speaker
and then yeah and then like from there we just were in it in the evangelical world so I always say like you have your pastor's kids and then you have your ministry kids and so we were ministry kids whereas was like we didn't have it as hard as pastor kids but we had it probably in a similar sphere of in terms of like people are watching you, like you need to watch what you do. like I think in some sense it's worse, right? I mean, because pastors' kids, I mean, to be a pastor, there's some sense of reverence around the pastor, and by extension, their spouse and their children and anyone they sort of...
00:14:35
Speaker
put that um reverence towards or points to. um But for ministry people, they are already, the people working in ministry, already don't have that same level of respect as people. I mean,
00:14:50
Speaker
um Yeah. and i both of worked in ministry and you know you get talked to a certain way that you know a pastor priest is never going to be spoken to so i mean yeah i mean by extension the ah the children of those people probably aren't going to receive the same amount of respect as oh i yeah have totally yeah but what was really crazy was so i am the middle of five kids at the time there was four of us my sister came really late, later on in the, I was already in high school, and, like, um to our friends, they would call, they would say we were the ones they always wanted to be with, like, hang around, because at the church office, we'd be, we'd bring our PlayStation 2, because we'd be there all day, all night, in the summers, and on breaks, because my parents worked there, and we just set up our PlayStation, and, like,
00:15:49
Speaker
watch movies and play video games in like different like whatever room was available and it's really funny because yeah we would just be there playing video games all day um and like the pastor's kids like the actual pastor's kids would want to come and hang with us because we had the we had the playstation 2 um so yeah it's kind of funny but yeah You do kind of get treated lesser than, in a sense, especially later on when I started working for the church, um probably. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:31
Speaker
So, I mean... The cult thing, oh my gosh, I could spend all day on that. i was I mean, i'm really curious about the hats. And you've described it as a paper plate, and it literally was ah a paper plate, right? It was basically like like a like triangular shape.
00:16:48
Speaker
Like they would cut it to shape. Like I think it was just cut in half and then worn around your head. with a with a yeah i think a last we used to do that when we were uh little for uh thanksgiving when we pretended we were indians yes yeah yeah yes right yes probably not the most politically correct thing to do but we did that that was kind of a normal thing i guess but you were doing that as a religion and was the theology i mean you're saying it was kind of
00:17:22
Speaker
Mormon, i mean, they believe that Jesus Christ is some important figure, I imagine, and that he died for your sins to some capacity? Yes.
00:17:36
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. Okay. But then there's also this lamp that you meditate. You have to. And then at the end of the, so you would you meditate on the lamp or whatever. i't For me, it felt like an hour, two hours, but it probably was like 30 minutes.
00:17:51
Speaker
um and the elders like the really elite people would go into a different room so they would be free of distraction okay then when everyone's done we'd all they they come down from their whatever room and then we would stand in a circle and we would say this prayer in hawaiian and we would do alms like literal alms so that's like i don't Like giving money? No, like the... Oh, like... Yes. Oh, okay.
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah, literally. um To close off close out the the service. And, i mean did you I mean, did you know the founder or did your mom know the founder of this? Yeah, so I believe my grandpa was like friends with them or...
00:18:45
Speaker
Like it was his uncle or something like that. But it was very similar to Mormonism in the sense that the angel came to this this guy. This guy. And gave him the message.
00:18:59
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. And that message is contrary to... Yeah. And why we say it is a cult because it is very exclusive. Like nobody can... Not just anybody can join.
00:19:12
Speaker
You have to kind of be invited. um like I don't like usually people get married into it or something but like it yeah it's really wild and when I talk about it with my mom I don't I think she gets a little uncomfortable because she she had good memories there yeah where all my like better memories were at the evangelical church right right
00:19:45
Speaker
Right. yeah i Yeah, I mean, and and I think that that is traditionally one of the other sort of identifiers of a cult is this, how easily can you leave it, right, is is kind of sort of this identifying feature. And it sounds like it might have been somewhat treachery. There are consequences for your family to leave. Yes.
00:20:11
Speaker
Yeah, so when we... when we first started going to the evangelical church, we would do the the Hawaiian church in the morning, leave to go to the evangelical, and then come back.
00:20:24
Speaker
So we would be like living this double life. And so we weren't saying anything. Our parents told us not to say anything. um And then when we left, it was really, they did not like that.
00:20:37
Speaker
And then slowly after that, like my mom's siblings slowly started to leave but after us because they didn't agree with a lot of like their decision leadership decisions in the church um so yeah and until this day like ah my brother just went to the big island last weekend with his family and he drove by the church and sent us a picture he's like oh the church is still here they still are around they're still around they'll do their thing
00:21:11
Speaker
Yeah, in fact, my mom's eldest brother, my uncle, he passed away in early this year, February, March. And at his funeral, because he was the only sibling, only member of my mom's family that was still attending.
00:21:27
Speaker
And he lived on Maui. And by now, they would have like Zoom. they They can set up, you know, Zoom, whatever. And so he was the only one that was still attending. So at his funeral, they all came dressed in their white clothes.
00:21:41
Speaker
They sat on like one side of the room. We sang like seven hymns in Hawaiian. like It was long. Yeah, it was pretty long. what so i mean i wonder if that does that play a factor in it too that they are tapping into i mean they are speaking exclusively in hawaiian they're singing in hawaiian yeah i mean that that's got to play some sort of factor in it too where there's this sense of maybe exclusivity yeah well that and it's just the sort of i mean because recovering it not recovering i shouldn't say but uh sustaining the Hawaiian language is obviously a very important thing the Hawaiian people and and any sort of area that that's happening and I imagine is sort of looked favorably upon maybe or yes and so I mean okay so the other thing is is like my auntie that led my mom to Christ when she was young a little girl she would make
00:22:44
Speaker
um these hats out of what's called lohala, and that's like a plant that grows here. And she would sell these hats for 25 cents on the street. um And she could only speak Hawaiian.
00:22:58
Speaker
Whereas like my grandma, because she didn't grow up with the same family, my grandma grew up with her family. She doesn't, she didn't speak Hawaiian. And so my auntie would only spoke Hawaiian to the point where she would get in trouble for not speaking English.
00:23:15
Speaker
So during that time, the like 30s, 1930s, 40s, that's when it was very like, um like, looked down upon to speak Hawaiian.
00:23:28
Speaker
So that's why my grandma being the youngest growing up in the 30s and 40s, didn't learn to speak Hawaiian. So that's kind of when the language started to die more so than ever because of um colonialism and the schools coming in.
00:23:48
Speaker
So they weren't allowed to speak Kauai at all. I remember speaking with a teacher at one of the Hawaiian immersion schools, Huala Kumana, and one of the teachers there, he was explaining to me that when his father was at Kamehameha schools, it was, they couldn't speak Hawaiian.
00:24:07
Speaker
or I mean, and this was probably around that same time, and and that's kind of shocking because you obviously have to be Native Hawaiian to actually attend Kamehameha schools. um But at that point, I mean, it's like, I don't know, it's like,
00:24:20
Speaker
i wouldn't I don't know why that decision was made, but i mean there is there does appear to be that sort of yeah hesitancy or ah ah rejection.
00:24:32
Speaker
I don't know rejection is too strong of a word. but um Resistance, yeah, totally. I find that very... i mean obviously Yeah, because you know like recently, within the past maybe 10 or so years, there's been like a renaissance of the Hawaiians.
00:24:50
Speaker
culture, I would say, and language, and, like, people are, so even us growing up, by the time we were growing up, I, like, didn't want to, I didn't care about my culture, Hawaiian culture.
00:25:01
Speaker
In high school, i was like, I'm taking Japanese, this will help me later in life, because of the tourism factor in Hawaii. So I didn't really care to be Hawaiian or anything, and then all of a sudden, because of this, like, renaissance resurgence, it, like,
00:25:20
Speaker
became cool to be Hawaiian, to speak Hawaiian, to like wear Hawaiian stuff.
Struggles with Identity and Faith
00:25:26
Speaker
Like it just, I don't know what was the switch, but I would say probably in the last 10 to 15 years, there's been like a, like a switch. So my sister went to that, that um Hawaiian charter school. yeah And so she speaks Hawaiian, but none of us,
00:25:50
Speaker
I speak almost fluent Japanese because of the tourism industry. so Let's talk about that. 10 to 15 years ago, we you and I meet, I think, in, i want to say 2010. And I don't know if you remember this. And it maybe we've spoken about this before. But we were at a church conference. And I was...
00:26:16
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I would have been 13 or 14 at the time. um You had just started Bible college or maybe had been a year or two into Bible college. This is like 2010. So, yeah, i guess it was 15 years ago.
00:26:28
Speaker
And I am just talking out of my butt at this church conference about... um uh the journaling method that our church used and how it was overrated and i said something ah about hermeneutics and i didn't even know what hermeneutics meant at the time and you called me out on it and i didn't even know you and you're like do you even know what hermeneutics is and i think you later told me that maybe you had just taken a course in hermeneutics or something i probably did yeah no yeah you take it in your first first year
00:27:07
Speaker
Yeah, and then I said it, and then you were like, whatever. Okay, you're like 14, so shut up. And I'm like, okay. ah But yeah, so I mean, okay, one thing that I did notice, you you know you were talking about this cult, and you were talking about like...
00:27:25
Speaker
um how um it doesn't follow the gospel or it doesn't it's not really like an authentic portrayal of real Christianity um so it seems like you have this sort of internal maybe even more conservative understanding of like christianity and i remember kind of having that sort of flavor even when i first met you back yeah so i did that i don't now now i i'm totally like open to it like oh you never know um and then i'm definitely more of a like open theist in the sense that like i don't know just never know
00:28:14
Speaker
There's a lot of things that are left out and that we don't know for sure, right? But yeah, back then, because the Christian college was mainly conservative, and then the church we grew up at is conservative, that's the lens that you're putting on every day.
00:28:37
Speaker
So if you're given the glasses to see, that's the glasses they're giving you. You're just going to use it so you can see. um But it wasn't until like after Christian college where I audited a class.
00:28:57
Speaker
So i took I went to Christian college in Oregon and then I audited a class in Hawaii with our friend Koa. And there the teacher was like, read the Armenian language.
00:29:12
Speaker
doctrine, read the Calvinist doctrine, and write a paper what you think. He just was like, I just want to know what you think. And so it wasn't until then I was like, oh, like, they can coexist.
00:29:26
Speaker
Whereas like growing up, I did, I, it was, you're taught everyone's wrong. From what everyone else is, if they're not believing what you're taught, they're wrong.
00:29:37
Speaker
But then also, we're given the tools to you know, read the Bible accurately and like through the lens of the like writers and why they do that and all that stuff. So you're given the tool to do that, but you're also told to use them a specific way.
00:29:59
Speaker
But then when I audited this class, i was like, oh, I don't have to do it. don't have to read it that way, you know? And so that like shifted my thinking completely.
00:30:11
Speaker
to being like, oh, I guess like, yeah, sure. That's cool. Like, I'm not gonna, if like God's speaking to these people in this way, then ah who am I to doubt him?
00:30:25
Speaker
Who am I to doubt that they are walking illegitimately or whatever, you know? Yeah. It's almost as if, and maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds almost as if the sort of understanding of faith that you developed in the ah cult, or I don't know what we're calling it.
00:30:49
Speaker
I mean, I know we're kind of referring it as the cult. Just call it the Hawaiian church. The Hawaiian church. Yeah. yeah ah That sort of like belief around like dogma and sort of rigidity and one way of doing things almost was replaced by a different ideology that you found in evangelicalism.
00:31:14
Speaker
Oh, for sure. Yeah. So I'm sure like my mom grew up grew up thinking, like oh, this is the way. And then she went to the other evangelical church she was like, oh, they're wrong. This is the way.
00:31:27
Speaker
Whereas like now she probably would lean more towards the kind of being open handed about a lot of things that she probably wasn't growing up.
00:31:39
Speaker
and yes So, yeah, I mean, let's back up a little bit because I guess this all started this conversation around having this conversation started because we were texting and I sort of remarked about how, you know, 15 years ago,
00:32:01
Speaker
you, me, and maybe 20 other people in our church um and in the schools that you and I both went to, which were sister Christian colleges in Oregon and Hawaii, we all had this incredible zeal to um bring people to Jesus.
00:32:24
Speaker
I think that was something across the board. that and we were Correct. And I don't think that was... um I don't think that was artificial in any way. I think we all legitimately had this passion for for evangelism and for community.
00:32:42
Speaker
ah There was this very vibrant community that we all had, and it was... ah for me, it was sort of all I knew. um and it was all I was willing to pursue as a community, if that makes sense. I didn't don't want to bring friends outside of that.
00:33:00
Speaker
You didn't want to bring friends. Right. And well, no, no, no. I didn't want to have friends outside of it. Oh, and some sense I still don't.
00:33:11
Speaker
Um, but you know, 15 years so fast forward, some of them aren't even Christian anymore for one, or they, they don't go to church or, um they live lives that 15 years ago, the person 15 years ago that they were, would reject. be appalled.
00:33:32
Speaker
Yes. Right. Right. Would say, Oh, they need to be here. What's that? Yeah. They need to be here. I mean, even when I go, like my mom is still just actually recently getting back into this evangelical church.
00:33:49
Speaker
And so sometimes I'll go and people that we both grew up with will be look look at me and they'll like, you need to be here. I'm like, no, thank you. Yeah.
00:34:02
Speaker
Yeah. So, I mean, think part of me, because I obviously, i went on my own journey that looked much different than everyone else's. And it's kind of ridiculous to sort of conflate all of us having the same sort of experience where we all realize that either it was a bunch of BS or it was maybe just not quite the true thing it was, or so for some people it was the true thing and they're still in it.
00:34:31
Speaker
They're still for sure working for the church or whatever. um Yeah, I guess, but the the thing I'm having to reconcile is were all those relationships real? Was that desire within us real? Was it sort of naive?
00:34:52
Speaker
I, you know, and even now I ah don't do ministry anymore, at least professionally. I still go to church obviously, but like, I really don't have the same desire to live.
00:35:07
Speaker
Correct. and and that was you could not tell me you know from the age of fourteen to twenty two probably that i was going to do anything other than ministry and i mean i mean was that kind of the same for you because you oh karen You were i mean you um you you went to Bible college a little later in life.
00:35:31
Speaker
i Not the traditional like college age of 18. You had a bit of a career before. and Yeah, I think I started the Christian college at 21. And I transferred in like maybe a year's worth of like undergrad credits.
00:35:47
Speaker
So say but I was able to bang it out in three years. um But yes, so like i grew up as a ministry kid but because and was so much of a closeted like gay boy and like always like being called it and like when you're in that environment where you are taught it's wrong and you're just like you're so afraid to do any to even talk right or even look at people because they would At one point, people would couldn't even figure out my gender, which is really hilarious because today there are like non-binary people. right You're also a very masculine person. I mean, you've always... like but i mean I don't know. but you I don't think you've ever dressed effeminently. I mean, you've always had facial hair.
00:36:36
Speaker
i don't I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Well, I think it was more like the way I talked or like, you know, when I was small, I like the girl characters, like I'm a big Chun-Li fan, like Storm fan. And like, you know, like my, my, when I, we were small, so I'm the middle.
00:36:59
Speaker
So my younger brother's four years younger than me. So when Power Rangers came out, there are six Power Rangers. We each got two, the top the three kids that at the time each got two because my younger brother was a baby.
00:37:13
Speaker
And the two that I got and I was pumped about was the pink and the yellow ranger. like you know it so That's just determinism. like If any other rangers are available to you, maybe you wouldn't have been gay. Maybe.
00:37:30
Speaker
Who knows? But even watching the show, I was like drawn to... like These feminine characters. Yeah, but then I didn't like really...
00:37:42
Speaker
And so then, you know, in middle school, like i would I would perform a lot in elementary school. So I'd like MC May Day. I would like sing at these things. I would do these like poetry contests, like very like performative kind of a person.
00:37:59
Speaker
And then once I hit middle school, I like closed up more because I think puberty and bullying and like, Oh, I am different. Like, this is what I'm trying to figure this all out.
00:38:17
Speaker
If I say I'm one thing I'm wrong and I'm going to get like kicked out of the church or, and so I wouldn't even go to, i didn't intend youth group in my time really as a youth person.
00:38:31
Speaker
Yeah. Because I was so afraid of people. so What were you afraid of? that That they would kind of talk about it or that you would? Yeah, probably that they would try to pull it out of me or, you know, like, I don't know. I just had this big fear of people.
00:38:52
Speaker
And, like, I think also growing up, um our children's church, because my parents would work there, we would be the last, I would be personally, the last to be picked up.
00:39:06
Speaker
To the point where like the kids from the next service are coming in and I'm still waiting at the door for my parents. And so because after sixth grade, there was so like you had a choice to attend. I was like, I don't want to go because I don't want to sign in.
00:39:24
Speaker
I don't want to be trapped. I don't like I want to be free. Like I don't want to. And so i think that was a big part of it, too, apart from the social aspect.
00:39:37
Speaker
um yeah. and i i didn't I didn't know that you weren't part of the youth ministries, I guess, because i mean yeah eventually you become a ah leader in the youth ministries. Yeah, so like i started I started as a leader. My youth ministry journey started out as I was like a college and I just started. I don't even know why or how. I just...
00:40:07
Speaker
started going to help oh i think it was one of my friends was like oh you should come to powerpoint yeah people to do powerpoint that's always just like our point yeah you know it's a easy way in yeah what so i guess you know and i don't know if it's ah we can edit this out if you don't want to talk about this but do you remember when you had told me that you were gay I do, and you don't have to edit it out. Okay, I don't know.
00:40:36
Speaker
It's so funny because ah we're talking about these sort of expectations that people have around you and your sexuality, where which is so funny because, you know, so we were... I had started a small group while I was in undergrad, um and I invited...
00:40:58
Speaker
um you and and a couple of other people and and um and, you know, it's like sometimes it was just me and you or, so you know, and a lot of times it was just me and you. Yeah, yeah. And, um...
00:41:11
Speaker
And you and I had known each other for some years at that point, probably about maybe 10 years at that point. and ah And had done some ministry together.
00:41:25
Speaker
and you sort of tell me in passing, as we're talking about some scripture, I don't even know what it was. and I didn't even believe you at the time. And I don't know if that's crazy because it's just like, like I mean, knowing you now, it's not like obvious, but kind of right. Like, and I had heard rumors maybe of it, but it's just like, Oh no, i ah he goes to church with me. I don't know. There's no way gaslit everyone around me.
00:41:56
Speaker
Right. Because even my, you know, my siblings, well, My sibling right above me more than anyone probably really championed like, no, he's straight. Yeah.
00:42:09
Speaker
So even even me telling people, because i after Christian college, I worked at a church in Oregon and for like a couple years. And so even when I told them, some people in that church, they were like, I would have never guessed.
Challenges in Church Leadership and Acceptance
00:42:28
Speaker
But yeah me growing up, I was called a girl. called a faggot, like all of these things all the time. So I think when I talk, I already sound gay, right?
00:42:42
Speaker
So in my mind, I think everyone knows. And so there are people like you, but there also are people who are like, we knew. Yeah, right. You know, so I just think it's really, and that part is very interesting to me because you're not the first person to say that.
00:42:58
Speaker
And I don't consider myself masked at all. and i think that I don't understand that, but I mean, you look like a traditional male. Like when I met you, you wore flannel shirts and, you know, jeans and, you know, and had facial hair and, you know, I don't know. Yes.
00:43:20
Speaker
And I, I believe that a lot of it is my upbringing of like, you need to like this, this is the cookie cutter thing. man masculinity and like this is how you look like you're masculine male right and so even like this thing I talked about this on another podcast but when I was young in elementary school for some reason I just didn't like the feeling of my jeans touching my knees interest and so I would roll them above my knees and so my family was like
00:43:59
Speaker
don't do that. That's gay. Like, don't, it's like only girls do that. Like, do not do that. Right. And then you fast forward and now it's like normal.
00:44:11
Speaker
I literally just bought some jeans that are baggy jeans. like that <unk> so I've been, i was looking for them forever and I picked them up at a thrift store. They're like Levi red tabs that. Yes. yeah So like, you know, no what I'm saying is that probably in your high school time,
00:44:28
Speaker
Rolled-up jeans were a thing. Right. Whereas, i was like, when I was doing it, they were telling me it was too feminine and gay, only for it to be normalized, which was an often ah occurrence with me, especially in the church.
00:44:49
Speaker
Like, um when I led worship, and I would wear very – because I – My work is in the fashion industry. So like I work in fashion retail long, long, long time.
00:45:04
Speaker
So I would be very ahead of the curve in sense of what I would wear. So I wear things that are a little bit more fashion forward. And even though they're not feminine, the church didn't know how to react to it and labeled it feminine.
00:45:22
Speaker
And I was literally told once, Once it hits target, the trend, once the trend hits target and this person starts wearing it, that's when you should you can wear it.
00:45:36
Speaker
Because that's when it'll be normalized. Yeah. I remember, yeah, you wore that, you wore a baggy t-shirt, I think was one of the things that sort of drew ire.
00:45:49
Speaker
Yeah, just that when, you know, that fear of God, Gerald Lorenzo, long line tees. and then you wear like a dress shirt. it's a And so people would, like pastors would say like, why does it look like he's wearing a skirt? Why does it look like he's wearing a dress?
00:46:03
Speaker
And that was like the up and coming trend. But because it looks like a dress or a skirt, the they were like, you can't wear it.
00:46:16
Speaker
Which is crazy because in some cultures, especially Pacific Island cultures, Like, they wear skirts. Like, it's normal. yeah Or even in, like, you know, in Europe.
00:46:29
Speaker
Like, so just the fact that these people would, like, keep their... They would just have such a, like, a small view of, like, specific things. But, yeah.
00:46:45
Speaker
It sounds like, yeah, throughout your time in ministry. So, i mean, you... you get involved in ministry um pretty full on in your early 20s. You start going to Bible college.
00:47:00
Speaker
um you what's what's the what's the ah What's your intention in doing that? like Are you trying to be a pastor? Oh, for sure. So when I got to Bible college, I thought, you know what? Because I was doing a lot of the arts growing up.
00:47:16
Speaker
I was like, oh I'll be a creative arts director. Like that just I always been, i did it all my life. It's natural. Like I'll probably do it. When I got to Iowa College, um I didn't have any friends. And so I had to like make friends because even though there were like people from Hawaii that started the same time as me, they were all girls.
00:47:39
Speaker
So like I had to make friends and then I started to make friends for kind of like, yeah. So I started making friends and then um i realize, oh like these people like love the Bible. They like love hermeneutics and stuff like that. And so then I like shifted to, oh I, which I ended up graduating with a pastoral degree.
00:48:10
Speaker
so in my mind, I'm like, oh I, can see myself in some form of pastoral ministry. ah just didn't really I just kept it open to whatever they allowed.
00:48:26
Speaker
And so, yeah. And so then after college and working at a church and moving home, i was like leading worship. And then I would speak every really rarely at youth and like,
00:48:43
Speaker
certain things they would have me speak at i think and that's ah that's what's kind of interesting is that and is what i was going to say when i was asking about that sort of journey that you start in bible college you are sort of carrying this weight the entire time ah my light just went off that you are going to get like found out, I guess, in some sense.
00:49:07
Speaker
and yeah And at the same time, um that's not an entirely unfounded assumption because there are all these people that have their eye on you for anything that might even yes have a hint of gayness to it, I guess, for lack of a better word. I mean, but that's what they're they're sort of like this sort of like queering, I guess, might be the more technical term. Yeah. So like, I don't even know when the, when, I mean, i kind of remember like in sixth grade trying to ask a girl out
00:49:47
Speaker
when everyone had landlines and you talk on the phone with people like all night long, um asking a girl out and her saying yes, and then getting to school in the sixth grade and her being like, actually no.
00:50:01
Speaker
and I don't know if it was from that rejection that I was like, oh, okay, maybe ah and well I, think it was not, I don't think that was the pivotal moment, but I think it was one of the many dominoes that started to fall.
00:50:15
Speaker
It didn't sting to you. Yeah. It did. Oh, did it did? Okay. Yeah, so it also, like, made me more, more like, like, girls don't like me.
00:50:27
Speaker
And people are saying I'm gay. Like, maybe I am, you know? Only to later, you know, actually, like, have these. And then, I don't know, in, like, high school and middle school, i would, like, say I liked girls. But then I'm like, I don't know if it was because...
00:50:46
Speaker
I wanted people to think that I was a straight conservative Christian or I was trying to like lie my way to, into like the belief system I had. i don't know. yeah Yeah.
00:51:03
Speaker
So yes, I went to college. I'm carrying this weight. So like my senior year of high school, I wrote a letter to um my two friends and one of them, she's been my best friend since kindergarten.
00:51:16
Speaker
Um, and she has, and what's crazy is that like in college, I would pray for her all the time. And then I would even tell her like, you're basically a Christian. You don't do these things. Like you just, was like, all you have to do is like accept Jesus. Like you literally do the things already. And she was like, no, no, no, no. And then when I was in Bible college, she ended up going to this conference with people from her work and like getting saved.
00:51:45
Speaker
And so now she is actually ah Christian. So it's kind of crazy. and But at the same time, i was like praying every day, whatever. So I'm going through college with this big like burden.
00:51:57
Speaker
i know in my head, I'm telling myself, oh, I know this is wrong. But like i and you know at the time, in the like conservative world, they call it like, oh, you have s ah SSA, same-sex attraction, right?
00:52:13
Speaker
And so you're like struggling. It's a struggle. And so in college, because I made such really good, like, deep friendships that were i could trust, that they liked me for me and not for what or anything else. Like, I felt comfortable enough to, quote, unquote, confess to these people.
00:52:35
Speaker
And they were like, they treated me the same. They didn't, you know, think anything else of it. And so because I was in this more, probably leaning more towards a, a like,
00:52:46
Speaker
charismatic Calvin, Calvary Chapel theology. Right. um I still thought it was like wrong. So then i even,
00:53:00
Speaker
um i remember reading some, like a blog on like John Piper's blog page, like Desiring God, because everyone was obsessed with John Piper in that time.
00:53:13
Speaker
for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um me included. And so I remember this guy wrote this, like, blog about how he had same-sex attraction.
00:53:24
Speaker
But then, and he was in um St. Paul. And he, like, he basically wrote this blog about how he got married to a woman and has kids. And, like, and I remember I DM'd him on Twitter and was like, i need help. Like,
00:53:42
Speaker
can you walk with me to figure this out? And he basically he basically told me he had no time.
00:53:51
Speaker
That's bizarre. Real quick, for for people who might, yeah my my Catholic friends or someone who might might listen to this, John Piper, um ah some i actually read an article a couple years ago that argued he was the most influential Christian figure in the 21st century and i um actually in America.
00:54:07
Speaker
And I actually kind of agree with that. Yeah. um He, you know, as far in the early 2000s and the early 2010s, there is this um strong resurgence of Calvinist doctrine that's sort of steeped in American conservatism that's championed yeah by folks like the Acts 29 movement led by Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, but specifically John Piper, who leads a congregation in in St. Paul, Minnesota. Correct.
00:54:36
Speaker
ah and and John Piper is this very militant Calvinist preacher.
00:54:48
Speaker
It's funny because today John MacArthur died the recording of this video. Oh, he did? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. John Piper is sort of, yeah. That is crazy. Yeah, it is. But he was another one, right? like He was in that same stream where like I loved his stuff.
00:55:05
Speaker
i but I think I had a couple of his commentary. I was like, ooh, this guy knows his stuff. But yes. I think we all did. I mean, well, actually, maybe MacArthur. I mean, he was probably the one of the more. He was way more extreme. a more like.
00:55:16
Speaker
yeah Yeah. John Piper, I feel, was a bit more palatable. People had... um what What book was it? like jesus It wasn't Jesus Calling, was it? Or what what book was... Desiring God. Desiring God. Yeah, right. Okay.
00:55:27
Speaker
And that became his blog. Yeah, God. Yeah, sorry. So just just to preface that for people, but you reach out to one of the bloggers on Desiring God who had a similar testimony to and Yeah.
00:55:41
Speaker
And so he also rejects me, so then it's like strike two. right so I get rejected in sixth grade I try you know I even tried again like after college asking a girl out and she was like no like multiple girls right in college outside of college they were like no so it was like kind of strike two then strike three was this guy telling me no to like basically when I'm asking for help like yeah how did like What do I do? like how can you just how I just need a mentor like to figure this out because I thought still I was going to like be in this evangelical world.
00:56:20
Speaker
and Do you imagine yourself being like the traditional pastor, having the pastor's wife? and I did. you know and To a degree. you know and Because of the evangelical church we went to was was a mega church, you could be still be employed by the church in some sort of form or fashion and still like do pastoral work but not be like the main guy i didn't want to plant a church i'm definitely like my friends will always say like i would be the best assistant ever on this planet which is kind of true um so i i thought i would be like an assistant pastor of some sort um
00:57:05
Speaker
um Because even like my mentor in college, he was that kind of a guy too. This guy, Gary Metzdorf, who we love. um So yeah, the guy tells me no.
00:57:19
Speaker
so I'm like, whoa, what is going on? I'm trying to do the quote unquote right thing. I'm trying to like you know do all these things that like I've been taught is the way.
00:57:33
Speaker
um And then I'm like, okay, I don't know. This is crazy. I'm trying, and it's still not working. um And then um my like my really good friend, Koa, who just got married. Congrats,
00:57:54
Speaker
Yes, congrats, Koa and Sarah. We love them. I was in their wedding party. ah he told He went to the same Christian college you did and then went to seminary in Canada.
00:58:06
Speaker
with one of our other friends. And that friend ended up coming out. And he was like, I call him the wolf because my brother would call him the wolf, my older brother, because he would lead this pack of people.
00:58:21
Speaker
He had such a powerful influence on these people that he would get them to like smoke and like drink and like push the line, line push as far as you can go.
00:58:34
Speaker
And so even for me, when I- He's such a nice guy though. i i Have you ever heard the thing about me ah calling him a douchebag? No, but I believe it.
00:58:46
Speaker
Yeah, I did. And in I was in high school. and he And he hears through the grapevine that I'm like, dude, he's a douche. And he reaches out and it's the sweetest thing. And he's just like, yeah I'm so sorry that I came off that. I felt so terrible. And he is incredibly intelligent and self-aware. And just like such... He...
00:59:15
Speaker
he him and Koa were really pivotal in me, like, I guess you could say, like, crossing the line or whatever. um But Koa would tell me, you should just, like, look in the mirror every day and say, like, I'm gay and that's okay.
00:59:33
Speaker
You should just do it. And I was like, that is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Like, I'm not doing that. And that's because, it like, in seminary and with this one, our one friend, he, he, he did his research and all that like biblical studies to also come to realize that like you can be gay and a Christian and the way we were being told to interpret the Bible parts of the Bible were not I wouldn't say wrong but like there was another way people were interpreting it which
01:00:11
Speaker
back then I was like, because I was in that Calvinistic kind of a mindset, I was like, this is the only way. yeah Whereas like, now I'm like, oh no, like, like the Bible does leave things open for interpretation. There are a lot of gray areas.
01:00:29
Speaker
yeah And I think that's because like, God wants us to have relationship and faith. And like, he can't just give you all the answers because then what would be the point? Right.
01:00:41
Speaker
um So yeah, I took that class. i sir I didn't necessarily look in the mirror every day me like, I'm gay and that's okay. also told this to him at his wedding. like Do you remember? We always laugh about it now.
01:00:58
Speaker
But um I even told, because we never expected that friend to ever come out as gay. And so one day one season he came home for a break from Canada and he told us all, and one of my friends she started crying.
01:01:14
Speaker
To which she later confessed that she probably had a crush on him. ah okay. But she, but yeah, she started crying. But she's also, he in some sense, like losing his salvation in some sense to, to like, yeah at least in the tradition that, you know. Right. And because she was the the leader of the Wolfpack, like people look to him. So if he's stepping outside of the conservative,
01:01:42
Speaker
like doctrine, it like shakes everyone up because he's the one that's leading the pack. And so when he first came out, I was like, okay, cool. You're still wrong. Like, you know, in my heart, I'm saying that.
01:01:57
Speaker
And then I took the class and i was like, actually this, like, why can't the Armenian and the Calvinist coexist? Like they already do. There's nothing you could do. Like, you know, they're going to argue into the grave.
01:02:10
Speaker
And even in college, I had ah Calvinist teacher and a more Armenian four-square teacher. And they did not agree on a lot of doctrine.
01:02:21
Speaker
And so, like, especially the end times, right? and So then I'm like, oh, these people do coexist. Like, oh, I better, like, look into this.
01:02:32
Speaker
So I, like, did a lot of um this friend, like, pointed me out to a lot of, like, books to read. and podcasts to listen to and things like that. And so I started to like dig around and like do the work and like listen to these podcasts and read these books and like kind of, you know, pray about it, whatever.
01:02:53
Speaker
and then at the time I was working at, um i was working at this luxury brand and this guy he is gay and he asked me if I was, and i was like, no, I'm straight.
01:03:09
Speaker
And he was like, he's he's like like a native from China and is gay. And so for him, it's like a big deal. and But he was just like, yeah, right. you know and Which we laugh about today.
01:03:24
Speaker
but at the time, I was like, no, I'm trying to walk the straight and narrow. And what year is this? Because I feel like I kind of remember this. This is like 2018. Oh goodness. Okay, yeah.
01:03:36
Speaker
Yeah. And so then... He kind of, with the like influence of him and our friend from Canada, all that stuff, like he like kind of encourages me to, like whatever oh, he confessed that he had a crush on me.
01:03:53
Speaker
And I told him, well, you have a boyfriend. and like You're not going to leave your boyfriend for me. And he was like, no And I was like, OK, so what do you want me to do? you know And so basically by then I was like confessing to him, yeah, you're right, I i am gay. yeah you know um And around that same time, there was just like, it was just like a shit storm, like all kinds of things like just happening at once.
01:04:18
Speaker
So while this is happening, my brother, my older brother, who is like the saint of all of us, the saintiest of saints, he randomly out of nowhere messages me and is like, hey, I was just driving to work. And I was like, I just felt like God told me that like,
01:04:39
Speaker
if you want to keep fighting, like me and my wife will keep fighting with you. If you're like too tired, like we fully support you. And so for him to affirm that was like, it was like next level. Like he doesn't, like I would have never thought he would have that view because he also went to school with you. He also um grew up in the church, did all the things.
01:05:08
Speaker
And was successful, you know? um So when he told me that, it kind of like, I kind of had a like a meltdown. And then I remember going to bed at night and I just felt like God said, there is like, you, like he would, like, I felt like he said, you know that my grace is sufficient and it, it, it can ah extend to this even still.
01:05:35
Speaker
Like there is room there. My grace, grace is there is room for this as well yeah and i was like oh okay and so then i went back to talk to the wolf and i was like you know what i think and then you know after reading and doing all the studies things like that like in the middle of that i'm just trying to like figure it all out um and so at the end of 2019
01:06:07
Speaker
I get fired from that job. um And then i turned, oh, in 2018, I turned 30 and I got fired from that job.
01:06:21
Speaker
I was about to make two years, I think, or something. And I turned 30 and my siblings were like, let's throw you a party. I was like, sure.
01:06:31
Speaker
But then they didn't want to pay for it. They asked me to ask everyone who I invited which included you and your wife. Oh my gosh. go paid Yeah. Okay. And so prior to this, i had been put on a sabbatical because i was at a work party and I got drunk and I texted a youth student and the text messages were on the youth student's computer, which the parents saw and the parents were the pastors.
01:07:03
Speaker
Right. And it wasn't anything provocative. I wasn't grooming. None of that, like no none of it. It was just like, I'm drunk. This guy's singing that that weird Eminem song about a ding-a-ling.
01:07:18
Speaker
Like, you should pick me up and drive me home. Like nothing, you know. And coming from the evangelical perspective, that they're going to say is red flagged.
01:07:31
Speaker
He's grooming. He wants to get in this boy's pants, whatever. That's not what I was thinking at all. So I get put on this like crazy sabbatical for six months.
01:07:45
Speaker
And they tell me, you have to do XYZ to get back. Because at the time, before that, I was like leading worship, writing music for the church. like The church was putting out music, going on tours. I was like helping do all of that stuff.
01:08:01
Speaker
So I was a very well-known figure in the church and in Hawaii to the point where I would like multiple Starbucks's. They would be like, you're the worship leader. And so like, I even worked at J crew at the mall and I would go with my coworkers to, to Starbucks. And the lady was so mean to them all the time.
01:08:21
Speaker
And then I would come up and she'd like, ah I sit in the front row every Saturday. oh my goodness And it was so nice to me.
01:08:29
Speaker
But so, okay. So I, I make this mistake. I get put on this plan. I have to like, they, now I realize this is like, what the heck was I thinking? I was just, I, no, I was thinking, I just want to be, not be in trouble.
01:08:47
Speaker
So they put me on this plan where like, I have to sign a waiver that releases, um, my therapy sessions, which are through the church, a Christian counseling, um, to them.
01:09:02
Speaker
And I thought it was going to be about this specific situation of being drunk. yeah Come to find out, the therapist writes an email about my entire dirty laundry, including like me being, quote-unquote, struggling, wrestling with being gay or whatever, trying to... like cheater on and off the fence so then and and i remember because i remember you talking about this filling out the form whatever and i remember you actually like debriefing it with someone who had also done the same form um i guess at the time i mean yeah looking back on that now that's insane like that's so unethical it's kind crazy like you wouldn't do that for i mean like yeah
01:09:52
Speaker
My hip-a-loge, literally. Yeah, yeah. Well, they were asking you to waive that right. Because, I mean, okay, here's... I guess here's here's where I'm at with it. Like, the the way the they the mistake you made, it was kind of... Like, it could be taken where... It could be taken, like, especially, I guess, in the context of everyone thinking you're gay, and at the time, you you were...
01:10:17
Speaker
yes um and you know there's this instance of like you saying this thing and it and it yeah like i mean like in your heart like you knew you weren't but they're dealing with this sort of assumption they're operating under the assumption that he's a gay man he's grooming my kid whatever um but at the same time
01:10:41
Speaker
you're like being sort of manipulated to yes um share, like that that is being used as sort of a ah like an in to bring out everything about you and like yeah and make sure that almost like to compromise you in some yeah other sense. Oh, 100%.
01:11:04
Speaker
It was like you were marked and not in the Christian way. Yeah. you're mark and you're like we're gonna so then you know then it was so awkward because these people i later found out because they would like say oh yeah i read the email and i'm like what email so this gets floated around amongst church leadership yes certain church leaders um That's crazy.
01:11:31
Speaker
I mean, i mean the four i mean like obviously, I don't think that anything, whatever, but it's so ridiculous. I mean, if it was today, I would have sued their ass. I would have sued them the ground and took all their money and ran.
01:11:44
Speaker
But I also love the founder of the church. like he I knew him personally, and he asked me to come to the school on a full scholarship. I didn't pay for a single thing.
01:11:58
Speaker
um And so... I am like wrestling. It is like literally an abusive relationship. Like you are being abused, but you're like, I don't know how to leave.
01:12:09
Speaker
Where do I go? This is my entire community. Like I have, if I leave this, I have nothing. And me and my siblings, we talk about this a lot. Looking back, we realize how terrible we were to our, our family, like not our immediate family, but our cousins and how we, you know, we just like, we totally distance ourselves because we were like, oh, they're, they're, you know, living in sin or they're blah, blah. And one of my cousins, she's trans. And at the time they Facebook messaged me and I, they were like, they confessed to me, this was like really early on. And I was just like,
01:12:54
Speaker
you need prayer. Yeah. You know, so even I'm like reciprocating this like doctrine that later I don't believe. And now, you know, when we were younger, me and my mom were like, oh yeah, not one.
01:13:11
Speaker
But now we're like, we celebrate their trans-ness, you know? And I just feel bad, me and my siblings feel really bad that we We just distance ourselves from these relationships that are blood, you know, that you can't.
01:13:27
Speaker
And we just treated our church as more of a family. And it was being more abusive than helpful.
01:13:36
Speaker
Granted, there were a lot there were there were a handful of people that were for me and like loved me for me and didn't love me for what I could do. um But there weren't a lot.
01:13:50
Speaker
And you were like one of them, right, that just loved me for me, which is why unlike majority of um gay people growing up in the church, like when I came out to people like you, like it was received because you knew me as a Christian before.
01:14:15
Speaker
and so then you you knew that it wasn't out of, i wasn't talking out of my ass. Like a lot of these people knew that like, oh no, he really does love the Lord. I've seen it.
01:14:26
Speaker
I've seen him lead worship. Like I know that he knows he spends time with God. Like he he is really a Christian. So he's not just saying this flippantly.
01:14:37
Speaker
Whereas like my brother, my oldest brother, who would who was the very verbal abuser of my whole childhood,
01:14:50
Speaker
had the hardest time because he still is in that conservative little bubble.
01:14:57
Speaker
Yeah. So, I mean, i guess, so that's what I guess I'm trying to reconcile is that you, you know, yeah. i So I know you during that time, we're in a small group together, but even before that, maybe because I mean, I feel like when we were in the small group, the wheels had started to kind of like fall off.
01:15:15
Speaker
that like a little like they're On my car? On me? yeah yeah Yeah. like There's sort of this disillusionment growing. I think yeah that that sort of incident with the young man um happens.
01:15:27
Speaker
I think right before, I didn't know about it until maybe years later. I don't know if I knew until i actually in 2020 or 21 or something like that. i don't I feel like that that kind of came out later. But you knew I was on a break.
01:15:43
Speaker
I knew you were on a break and then I knew that I kind of contributed to the second break. My second was to go. And we can talk about that. I don't know. I mean, if if that's, but I mean. That is yeah really one of my favorite stories to tell.
01:15:55
Speaker
But seriously, it is. Because, so I turned 30. My brothers are like, let's throw your party. Then they're like, we don't want to pay for it. Granted, these people have full-time jobs. Like they they make good money.
01:16:07
Speaker
And they didn't want to like dish out a hundred bucks, but wanted me to have a party. So I asked these people for money. At my 30th birthday party, I get crazy drunk.
01:16:19
Speaker
Not crazy drunk. I got really drunk, but I didn't text anyone. I didn't drive because you and your wife did verbally communicate to me that, like, you do not want me driving drunk, which I had done a couple times already.
01:16:36
Speaker
I don't know if you remember that. I do. I do. then i Well, I remember I like yelled at you. for you had You had driven and well at one point, and I yelled at you and said to never do that again.
01:16:49
Speaker
yeah that was that was and was Yeah, I was i was quite frustrated at that time. I know. and then So then i would have you and your wife come pick me up and drive my car.
01:17:00
Speaker
And then I realized, like, this is still... That happened once. It wasn't, like, a repeated thing. It happened once. And I think I even said, like, we can't do this. Like, that's... yes I think it happened one time. Yeah.
01:17:10
Speaker
And this is, like... And it was because I had said that to you once, like, just call me. Yes. um doing like Uber wasn't a thing or something? I don't know. was. Well, you had the car.
01:17:21
Speaker
You had the car. It was. and then like But I think it wasn't as much of a thing as it is today. Perhaps. People don't understand what the the blessings they have through Uber.
01:17:33
Speaker
But anyway, um so then I get really drunk, and then you... Tattletail on me. Okay, no. they're but you okay This is going to kind of sound bad, but that wasn't the instance.
01:17:49
Speaker
There was your birthday party with everyone where you got drunk. and Yes. and da At the karaoke bar. Yes. You got drunk.
01:18:01
Speaker
I think that was when we were all together. and i don't know if what happened there. like I came kind of late, and you were already pretty like... lit and yeah and then your brother and i your younger brother and were kind of like with you at that point ah some of the worship leaders were there because you were actually about to i think s sink the next sing the next day was yeah because this was a friday night you were going at saturday night service yes so i mean like Yeah, so it gets leaked to the powers that be um because there's some worship leaders that were there and they call me up because they know I stayed later with you.
01:18:45
Speaker
leadership calls you. The leadership calls me and they hear... So it wasn't you who leaked it? No. And I've always tried to explain this to you. And actually, we could talk about who it was afterwards because like i like and I'm sure they would be fine with it at this point.
01:18:59
Speaker
But like I never... Yeah, i didn't leak it to anyone. They asked me, though. they So they reached out to me and they were like, we heard you hung out. later and kind of like helped him because it was bad right like you yes yeah i mean it was it was quite jarring for for us i think because you know just to see you in that state um and it was kind of mean at that point we'd seen that like twice you know um and yeah and and i think at that point it was just kind of like
01:19:32
Speaker
they call me and they're like, what happened? And I told them. And, you know, and I, at that point, I didn't have any sort of qualm about that. One, because like, I wasn't going lie. I'm just like, I just don't want to lie.
01:19:46
Speaker
and Totally. But, but the second thing was, I was genuinely kind of concerned because it had become like a, a thing. A thing. Yeah. and I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm sure wasn't outward, like,
01:20:01
Speaker
cry for help but for how I was being treated in within the church right so like when I got on the first sabbatical they leadership told me I couldn't even talk to my own sibling about it they told me like you can't talk to anybody about it you can't be at church when this person is there like they treated me like a pedophile it was like really crazy and I I remember I cussed out the pastor and I was like I can't even fucking talk to my brother like you're insane yeah I mean because like there is this mistake that's made and it is somewhat big like yes you know you're texting an underage kid and it's it's like it is a bad thing like and yeah and regardless of if you're gay or not I mean it's just kind of like correct but it is you know becomes this sort of like sexually not sexually charged thing but it becomes there there's that like tinge I guess
01:21:00
Speaker
um Yeah, like, they put that layer on it. Because because you're gay. Yes. So, I mean, there there is this objectively, like, bad thing that happened, or that you did. Correct. But but you, the the way it's sort of handled like...
01:21:17
Speaker
is like Oh, terrible. Almost, I mean, it it is in in some sense, like, spiritually abusive. like and Very. Almost, i mean, cultic, right? there're there're Yes. They're separating you from your family and from your support system. And they've built a support system around you that you can't actually trust because that support system leaking the information your life to everyone else. Yes.
01:21:44
Speaker
yeah but And it's crazy because at the time when this is happening, you were telling people telling me, ah you know because i was we were in the small group, and it wasn't that, it was sort of normal for you.
01:22:00
Speaker
I mean, the HIPAA voiding thing. Oh, yeah. I was like, oh, yeah. I signed it. I thought it was totally normal. I remember you talking about it and being like, oh, yeah. they like He tells them everything or something. And I was just...
01:22:18
Speaker
at the time kind of like oh there must be a reason for it and now you know almost 10 years later i'm like this is insane like it is totally insane like you need help and it's just like i don't know it's just crazy yes and so that happens whatever gets be leaked and you have to be honest with what they ask you and then I get put on my second sabbatical.
01:22:51
Speaker
um And so I get put on the second sabbatical. I don't even work at the church anymore at this point i because the pastor convinces me to like leave this, the church job and work in the, market because i at the time I was working like two or three jobs because you just have to do that in Hawaii.
01:23:14
Speaker
Everything's so expensive. You just have to do, like, work your butt off. So i he convinced me to, like, he convinced me to sign the form. And I'm like, oh my gosh, looking back at this, I'm like, that is so crazy.
01:23:29
Speaker
He convinces me to leave the church job after coming home from the scholarship that they gave me. So I'm like, and I think I was also asking them Like I was really upset because they weren't paying me well at all.
01:23:45
Speaker
And I'm like, I have this degree you sent me. i came home. i was the only one of the five that came home and actually served the church. Like you asked and you just are paying me $14 an hour. Like terrible.
01:24:03
Speaker
Whereas like a videographer was getting paid $18 hour videos. to do video right And I'm actually busting my butt off, like running midweeks, having to like conflict manage with like the grumpy lady who doesn't want to make food for everyone, but it's getting everyone sick.
01:24:22
Speaker
And the powerpoint person she got so many people sick it was kind of crazy yes we stopped eating her food she also she also gave my wife these before it was pretty hilarious uh we still do we to do that to each other but in honor of her i didn't even know that yeah yeah like i think but you know they had it shut down my wife working in the coffee shop that that she had shut down the machines for the night and they wanted to drink it yeah yeah that's crazy But, i for you know, after my, when i actually decided to step out, by that time, I won that lady over. Yeah.
01:25:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. So, like, you know. i mean, she was, she was nice. She was, she, you know. She had a very rough exterior that took a lot to crack. Like, you had to really work at it.
01:25:14
Speaker
It was just really hard work that. most people, I mean, I'm a very confrontational person. I'm a very like upfront person, whereas a lot of people are not. And so for me, I don't, i don't mind being like confrontational.
01:25:31
Speaker
So I know even one time, like there was something else happened with like the video team wanted to do a fundraiser and I told them no or something. And they got really mad and told the pastor and the pastor told me same pastor,
01:25:47
Speaker
you need to go back and you need to go on your knees and beg them to to do the fundraiser, like get them back on board. And I looked him in the eyes. I said, I am not going to grovel at this person's feet.
01:26:00
Speaker
You can fire me right here, right now. And I was like, the like subsection staff. And I think they were all like, what is happening? And i was like, fire me. don't care. I am not going to go and grovel to this person. Like,
01:26:17
Speaker
And I even, you know, this person would complain a lot. And it came to a point where even I told that person like to their face, like, you know, I'm trying my best here. I'm working really hard to get make sure everyone is happy. And I just and i just need your support.
01:26:31
Speaker
You've known me the longest. Because this lady also knew me, like, since I was a kid. um like, you've known me the longest. You know my parents. Like, you know I'm not doing this to, like, make people upset. Like, I need you.
01:26:43
Speaker
i need you to have my back. yeah She like cried and apologized, whatever. wow that's awesome. mean that you guys have Yeah, you know, I have a way of winning people over. Yeah.
01:26:54
Speaker
But i don't it's not disingenuine. No. It's genuine. yeah yeah I don't do it to manipulate people like others do. you looking at me? No, not you. No, no, no. no like The pastor did.
01:27:08
Speaker
The pastor totally was manipulative into getting what they... So they would look good in front of their dad so that they would you know look like they – I don't think their dad would do any of this stuff, to which we can fast forward a little bit.
01:27:27
Speaker
I go on the sabbatical. At the end of the sabbatical, nobody checks up on me. Nobody follows through. yeah I remember that. I have this meeting with the leadership. I sit them down, and my Bible degree ass says – listen, nobody checked on me. You guys put me in a boat. You shipped me off to sea and you never called me back.
01:27:50
Speaker
And I was like stranded at sea by myself. Now, if you, and then I'm like over here going, if you feel in your heart, that was the thing that God asked you to do.
01:28:01
Speaker
Hebrews 11 says, you're going to have to stand before God and you're going to have to take account for how you you dealt with this. So if you feel in your heart and they were like so apologetic and all this stuff and so then i slowly am getting back to leading worship and I just then I get the the message from my brother and then I'm like having this feelings for this person at work and then I just like think to myself like this church is asking me more than
01:28:42
Speaker
anything God is asking of me. Like, God's not asking of me too to do this. Like, he is not asking for perfection. He knows we're not perfect. Like, he's not asking me to, like, read my Bible and pray every day.
01:28:56
Speaker
Like, you he probably thinks it's cool. Like, he's not asking me, like, I need to do that to get XYZ. Whereas as these people are like, you need to do this, this, this. You need a not go to church. You can't do this. You can do this. Like at one point I even got this document with red letters of the things you're not supposed to be doing if you are leading worship.
01:29:21
Speaker
Now I understand completely how it looks when you're drunk on a Friday and leading worship on a Saturday.
01:29:33
Speaker
Like I do understand the influence and the the like mantle it carries. But I think at that point I hit a i like hit the ceiling and like was so, like it it was gonna spiral out of control either way because I was not being cared for. i was being asked more than what God's asking of me. I'm trying not to be in trouble And then, but then at one point i was just like, I came to a point, i was just like, what the fuck? Like, God doesn't even ask me of these things.
01:30:11
Speaker
And I'm over here trying to perform, like non-literally perform and perform like these whatever rituals or habits or whatever.
01:30:26
Speaker
Well, knowing that God's not asking me to do so. So I meet with a bunch of people and I tell them, you know, I think that my time here is is done. Like, I don't think I'm going to be. I remember calling the worship directors who are my very, very, very good ah close friends.
01:30:47
Speaker
And our other friend was actually in the car because they were in Oregon. And I remember telling them on the phone and they started to cry because they knew how they knew how hard that was for me and they knew that it was like gonna be hard later and so I said I just cannot I'm like so tired of performing like having to prove to people that I'm holy when I already am like I'm proving to them that I'm a good person when like hello like
01:31:26
Speaker
That's the whole point of our faith and belief system. So i I bow out nicely and I do, and I don't, I don't and say fuck you and like dig out, but I do start going to another church that was affirming, LGBTQ affirming.
01:31:47
Speaker
They had this program where they would have five LGBTQ people and five straight people. And you'd sit at a dinner table once a week for a month And it was an activity for the straight person to heat listen, to practice listening, and for the LGBTQIA person to be heard.
01:32:08
Speaker
Because at the of the day, i think no matter what, anybody, everyone just wants to be, they just want to be heard. And so this, along with like talking to my friends and all that stuff, I felt like a real piece about transitioning to this I don't know what would say, like lifestyle, I guess, of like still believing the core things and like that make up a Christian, but also understanding there are gray areas that that grace covers.
01:32:46
Speaker
So then um I'm outside of the mega church at the smaller church. And then i left I left on good terms.
01:32:59
Speaker
But then they asked me to come back to help with the youth camp.
01:33:05
Speaker
And they asked me, this was, don't know you're still in Hawaii. You probably were. Yes, I think you were. They asked me to to help out with the youth camp that was at the church office.
01:33:17
Speaker
No, I had left. Okay. Okay. So they asked me, the leadership the the youth leadership asked me, I said, you go make sure it's okay with your leaders who was the one running my whole sabbatical.
01:33:31
Speaker
And if they say, okay, then sure. um And so then they say, it's okay. I take vacation from my daytime job to come do this camp help.
01:33:45
Speaker
All I'm doing is activities, right? Like I'm not, pastoring anybody. I'm not like leading anybody. I'm just like cleaning up the barf and dodgeballs, right? um One of the other pastors whose son was involved, they come to do like the big opening ceremony and they see me and they're really nice to my face
01:34:17
Speaker
And then after that, they leave and I'm being called outside by those same leaders who asked me to be there. I said, what, do I have to go?
01:34:30
Speaker
Like jokingly. And they said, actually, yeah, you do. And I said, what? They said, the pastor said you're like gay? said, yes.
01:34:43
Speaker
Yes. And they were like, are you dating a boy? I said, no. And so then they were like, yeah, the we they were like in a real, so this pastor put them in a very awkward position. and so then I called another elder up.
01:35:02
Speaker
And that elder was like, as much as I want to, I can't because they already vetoed me on this other scenario.
01:35:11
Speaker
And so left. i love And so when I'm leaving, i said, oh, hell no. These people do not know. i am never the one.
01:35:23
Speaker
Never the one, right? I emailed the founder because I have a personal relationship with the founder. Hey, I just want you to this happened.
01:35:34
Speaker
The people you left here in charge, they dismissed me. They didn't have tell it to my face. I feel so embarrassed, like being kicked out of my home.
01:35:45
Speaker
because I've literally grown up in that building. um and so then he calls and leaves a voicemail and it's like, I'm so sorry. Like, I want to know what happened.
01:35:58
Speaker
um This is not okay. And then next day i i have, yeah, I have breakfast with the elder and I'm just like, this is this is what it is, right?
01:36:13
Speaker
I don't even go to this church anymore, but I was asked to help clean up dodgeballs and throw up from eating weird shit.
Contradictions and Reflections on Grace
01:36:23
Speaker
um So then, yeah I get, so then those past those pastors who didn't have the balls to tell to my face tried reaching out.
01:36:34
Speaker
And I was like, no like, I'm not ready. Because I was like, so upset and offended, like, How dare you go up there and preach this gospel of grace and forgiveness and all of this when you don't even practice it yourself? You literally won't practice it yourself, the way you treat me.
01:36:54
Speaker
You have literally proven to us all that you have not forgiven me, that you believe I am i have ill intent. Like they thought I would turn their kids gay, like crazy things that like,
01:37:11
Speaker
are just like, what? Like, that's not even what we're thinking, right? So then I finally decide, like, okay, I'm ready to meet with the wife of the pastor who was, like, trying to be super apologetic.
01:37:26
Speaker
i said I sit this person down, and I tell her, you know, like, in Toy Story 3, you have, like, Woody, and then you have, like, Bo Peep, and she's, like, out, and she's, like,
01:37:41
Speaker
kind of in a messy scenario, but she's doing, they're doing the same thing, just looks different. ah was like, life is more than the name of the church under your shoe.
01:37:53
Speaker
Like, life is kind of messy. Like, I think God works differently. You know, he works one way for one and another way for others. Like, it's just, you can read about it in the Bible too, right? Like, he shows up in a firing bush and he swallows a guy, he The guy gets swallowed up from a whale. Like he just uses different methods to speak to people.
01:38:17
Speaker
And she started crying because I made this analogy that like changed her life. And so then she was like apologetic. And I was like, I just want you to be able to practice what you preach. If you're going to be up there preaching this message of grace and not having grace for it me who is at the top,
01:38:38
Speaker
what makes you think the people at the bottom are going to ever want to be here or follow you or feel that you have grace for them? So it was really good. And, but I still was like, this is crazy. And so, um and so, yeah, they're not there anymore.
01:38:58
Speaker
Yeah.
01:39:00
Speaker
What's funny is when they left, um they posted on Facebook and they were like, oh, this was a shock to us. And somebody, i think you said it to me, somebody commented and was like, we knew your son told us you're a liar. Yeah.
01:39:15
Speaker
yeah
01:39:18
Speaker
So to be clear, I mean, the family, the pastoral family that um you had the interaction with the son with is is that family that that you yeah you you sit down with the mom. and And yeah, I mean, yeah, like you have this experience, this thing that happens that like objectively was bad, but like at the same time was not.
01:39:41
Speaker
necessarily like ill intent or like nothing actually like came out of that before or after it was just this moment of just like yeah texting a kid um and like at to that point like you actually have this moment where you have of reconciliation with the family yeah to a degree afterward yes because then they even let me meet with the kid late after that i asked them like oh can i sit down with him and like just And, you know, the kid was in public high school.
01:40:13
Speaker
He totally didn't have the same views as them. Like, he was, he understood, like, you you know, and so it was just them, again, harping back on, like, just using the tools they were given and taught to fix problems that aren't really, you know, like the,
01:40:40
Speaker
you just aren't really fixable. you can't fix me out of my gayness. Yeah. um Yeah.
01:40:49
Speaker
But it seems like, I mean, theyre the the these like instances that come out like with you with with the texting or with the experience at your birthday that I was present for, like they're coming out of this place of internal pain.
01:41:08
Speaker
For sure. From your your personal struggle struggles that... Correct. It's just the these kind of outbursts that are basically taking place.
01:41:19
Speaker
Oh, for sure. I mean, it's like a like a you know like a kettle. like you' The boiling... and you know When you like boil pasta, it overflows. like It's bound to get out somehow, shape or form. And so if...
01:41:36
Speaker
yes i would If they actually did what they said they would, I probably wouldn't have reacted in the way that I had.
01:41:48
Speaker
Like if, you know, if they were checking up on me, if they were like meeting with me, if they were like actually pastoring me, like praying with me or whatever.
01:42:00
Speaker
my life might be a little bit different. I don't know. But even if I, I mean, even if a girl said yes, my life might be a little bit different. Interesting, yeah.
Faith Evolution and Community Participation
01:42:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, do do you really like believe that? Like, if right the girl in sixth grade would have said yes, or the girl after college would have said yes, or, I mean.
01:42:20
Speaker
I believed I could be like that that that blocker. i was like, this is the life that I want. But there were just so many doors closing that I was like, okay, let me just try to embrace this part of me fully and believe that my relationship with Jesus is real.
01:42:50
Speaker
i don't need to anybody to tell me that, but I know that people have affirmed that in me. um but I'm going to try and figure this all out. And so that's where I came to terms of everything.
01:43:06
Speaker
So where where are you now, you think, in faith? Like, what do you believe? Because, you know, I'm just trying to, like in meet you, and you are a pretty so um zealot of this specific type of christianity that exists in evangelicalism of young restless reformed where you you're sort of a subscriber to this calvin's doctrine and this american masculinized evangelicalism yes um
01:43:42
Speaker
what What are your beliefs now? I mean, do you still like have these sort of favors of Calvinism or Evangelicalism? or like You know, like I think about it a lot. like I'm in this kind of weird space because and um like since I moved to Seattle towards the end of the pandemic because I could not get a job after I got fired. And so I moved to Seattle for three years. I worked for...
01:44:12
Speaker
whatever, and then moved back home. And since moving back home, that church that I started to attend that I left the other church for has disassembled.
01:44:25
Speaker
Like, they don't, like, the pastor was like, I want to write books. Like, we're not doing this anymore. I think it was getting bigger than himself, so he um dismantled it So I don't really go to church because I don't... I mean, the the only option is like go to this old church that has treated me terribly. And I've gone back to like you know dance or whatever.
01:44:56
Speaker
And it's only because in February I danced. This past February? Mm-hmm. And um because one of the dancers is only...
01:45:10
Speaker
i just I know that they've known me since I was 15. I love them. Like they're the best. And if they're going to ask me, then I will say yes.
01:45:23
Speaker
And I told her like, it's only because you asked that I'll say yes. Otherwise I do not want to be here. And she was like, why? And so then I tell her the story and all that. And she doesn't think of me different or anything like that, but.
01:45:41
Speaker
Yeah. It was kind of crazy. It was even like, you know, we you and I both know our landlord, and he didn't even recognize me when he was in the front row. Yeah.
01:45:52
Speaker
That's crazy. So, I mean, like, and I guess I don't mean necessarily, like, where are you at? Like, what church do you go to? Like, beliefs?
01:46:03
Speaker
Yeah. like So, in terms of, like, evangelicalism, which is really funny, I... I subscribe to like Jesus died for my sins that there are gray areas but he he meets me in them um I didn't I don't totally discount any of it um but I'm definitely more open to like I said like an open theist where like it's relational and like
01:46:40
Speaker
with God and are you referring to like open theism like like like Clark Pinnock's open theism that God has limited his foreknowledge yes yeah yeah could you maybe explain that just a little bit I mean because so yeah like I believe that God limits his like you said foreknowledge because of free will so he doesn't actually know what's gonna happen And because it's relational, because he treats us as humans.
01:47:17
Speaker
The idea that God limits his foreknowledge in order to fully participate in the human experience. maybe Yeah. yeah um and And then, you know, I, like, you turned me on to a lot of Richard Rohr, who is definitely a more, you know, open about, like,
01:47:40
Speaker
he believes like all things lead to Christ in the end no matter how it looks um kind of yeah I mean yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um obviously like not a satanic cult or something you know where they're like whatever but yeah I think it's just the ability to see Christ in all people I think is is what you know and things and yeah yeah for sure that yeah I mean, I do not believe that, like, I don't believe in, like, the, uh, I've been out of school so long, that, like, doctrine where, like, um, like, Jesus is gonna, like, come back and take us up and all that, like, the rapture, I don't believe, yeah yeah, I don't believe in, like, the rapture or anything like that, um, I don't know what I believe in that terms, um,
01:48:41
Speaker
I kind of like, I don't know, it kind of scares me, to be honest. Yeah. Because like, maybe we'll just like not be. I don't know. Maybe we will. I have no idea. um And so I'm still trying to figure a lot of that out.
01:48:56
Speaker
And I still listen to like worship music, like evangelical worship music. I love that. um But definitely, you know, i feel like I've even told some leaders who are like, oh, you should come back. They were like, apologize. This other leader who did nothing wrong, who didn't treat me terribly, who actually supported me fully.
01:49:21
Speaker
She was like, I was such a bad leader and I'm so sorry if that made you go. And I told her, I was like, we believe in this. The things that matter, we still agree on.
01:49:33
Speaker
But the things that don't matter, we don't agree on. So she believes in the rapture. and she's always like sending me YouTube videos of, You need to watch this. like This is the time. like The end times are here. and Look at the world. The war with Israel. It's happening.
01:49:55
Speaker
and I don't really i don't know subscribe to that really, but I'm like open to it. I just don't don't know. that That is a great area that like God meets me at.
01:50:09
Speaker
that I don't have to know. Like, that's, what a burden to carry to be so worried about, like, things that you can't control, you know? Right. um But, yeah, I'm trying to figure it all out.
Deconstruction and New Perspectives
01:50:25
Speaker
So actually, it's kind of interesting. So one of the... So I posted that on Instagram that I would be having this conversation with you. And um we did get some questions.
01:50:37
Speaker
but But obviously, they don't they don't know who you are. This was from one of my coworkers um when I worked in campus ministry. And they did ask, like, what do you think about... ah i don't know if you're familiar with the ex-evangelical deconstruction movement. I feel like it's not really a thing...
01:50:54
Speaker
recently anymore yeah five years ago six years ago it was sort of more of a thing yeah yeah do you view yourself sort of in that camp of being like an ex-evangelical or do you view yourself as a gay evangelical or or i would probably say an ex-evangelical because i don't subscribe to a lot of evangelical doctrine right and so you know I don't know if this is unfortunate, but yeah, like I do understand where a lot of deconstructive Christians are coming from.
01:51:31
Speaker
i think that we grew up we grew up in the age of megachurches, which aren't so much a thing anymore, surprisingly, but not surprisingly. Like they're not really ah as big of a thing as they were.
01:51:47
Speaker
I think in certain regions they are. Like, I mean, you you think of someone like like ah Mike Todd or ah Stephen Furtick. Yes. I think they're... And even... i feel those... They're very rare....people are losing their sort of correct novelty or... Yes.
01:52:09
Speaker
So, you know, I understand because it was like such a machine... that there's a lot of people like that are having to figure out what to do or what they believe or why they believed it. Right.
01:52:26
Speaker
Luckily I was able to in college meet people who really were pastoral to me, really showed God to me and treated me like Jesus would.
01:52:40
Speaker
Whereas a lot of these people who are, i don't know, dabbling or like, you know, looking into this deconstructive stuff, and you know, a lot of them unfortunately come out like atheists or they're like, you know, because they have been treated, been so badly mistreated.
01:52:59
Speaker
um But I do not believe that God ever mistreated me. I believe that like God has been with me while I was mistreated um by these people.
01:53:13
Speaker
Like, so my belief of God and who God is has not changed. um and But definitely my my beliefs in the things like that don't matter.
01:53:26
Speaker
yeah So yeah, I totally sympathize with these people because I think, you know, the day and age of megachurches has subsided a lot more than what it was.
01:53:42
Speaker
and I think a lot of these people are having to like really reconcile what they believe, why they believe, oh, i actually don't believe this, I do believe that, and trying to figure out where they fit, right?
01:53:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, i think I sort of saw the same thing. I mean, I i was very interested in the ex-evangelical deconstruction movement when it started, and and i don't even know if it's like, it makes it sound like I was sort of ah ah pioneer or something, but I remember like all these sort of almost like ex-evangelical influences sort of coming out and starting these networks of deconstruction. and like like
01:54:27
Speaker
for me i came out roman catholic and then there were others that came out like like this deconstruction sort of like took different trajectories and yeah yeah i mean it's just kind of bizarre right that this disillusionment with evangelicalism with the whole megachurch thing kind of led to ah these different types of spirituality or lack thereof yeah eventually.
01:54:59
Speaker
who But, okay, I think we had two more questions. um Yeah, okay. This is, I probably, the guy was asking, ah one of the guys in our small group, coincidentally, um was asking if you were actually like gay or like, do you do you like actively participate in being a gay person or is it just like same sex attraction? I think you know they they're coming from that background.
01:55:29
Speaker
but like I guess you you consider yourself like a gay person who oh very yeah yeah i and you know like I said I did a lot of the work so I read a lot of books I don't interpret the the verses that they use against us like they do um participate you know like what i gave what I have what i have a partner sure one no do i have one yeah okay yeah i think that's i think that's what they're getting at is like is it like if you're gonna elect to be voluntarily celibate as opposed to yeah yeah that's a special kind of person and i am not i agree it's it's a spiritual gift it totally is i mean it's it is that's yeah yes it literally yes
01:56:21
Speaker
like literally outlined as one. And then our friend Koa asked, what aspect of the cult do you miss? Or was it all no bueno? Do you still talk to the cult members? You know what?
01:56:32
Speaker
um Like I said, they attended my uncle's funeral in Maui. And I was looking at my brother's. I was like, oh my god, are you guys triggered or what? This is crazy. They were sitting all in white. They stood up and they sang their Hawaiian hymns. And I was like, oh my god, we know these songs.
01:56:51
Speaker
um But I, we do not, I don't, I was not very, cause I was so young, i didn't have as close a connection as my mom did. So my mom does, and a lot of that, it a lot of them are literally blood family.
01:57:05
Speaker
So like my mom's first cousin still goes, you know, so that we, like, we are definitely, and I think because coming out of this like mega, mega church, like culture,
01:57:22
Speaker
and kind of, I guess you could say, deconstructing my theology, like I am a lot more gracious than I was. Like, oh okay. Like, I don't know. Maybe they are, you know, who knows?
01:57:38
Speaker
Maybe they are, they what they feel in their heart they're doing what God asked them to do. So I can't really speak on it. But so to answer the question, yes,
01:57:49
Speaker
We still keep in touch with some of them. My mom does especially, um but not so much to me I was too young. And what I miss the most is probably my rainbow hat.
01:58:04
Speaker
My cousin, so the same funeral, right? My cousin, he we were talking about it and he was like, dude, he's a year younger than me. He was like, dude, I was oh so jealous you got your rainbow. I always wanted my rainbow.
01:58:22
Speaker
du the rainbow yeah this is like i it's crazy yeah well i think that's that's a pretty good place to end it like you are a gay man who has ascended to rainbow hat wearing status and that that's where we're at you know That's where it's at.
01:58:48
Speaker
Literally. Who would have thought? What's funny is when I came out to my mom, like, officially, it was, like, in the pandemic. She started crying, and then she was like, ooh, yay, I can wear rainbow things.
01:59:02
Speaker
But what's crazy is her twin sister is totally a lesbian and has been forever. So it's like you could have been wearing it then. But this is what i'm saying. Like, she was only...
01:59:16
Speaker
like revert, like, uh, she only practicing what she was told, preached, right? So, and I told her, this is also why it was so hard to come out to you because we would sit there and watch shows and you'd be like, ew, this, oh, that.
01:59:30
Speaker
And I would say like, hello, your sister is this way. Like, you can't just say things like that. And she's it's my home. But now she is a totally, like, we, uh,
01:59:42
Speaker
watch Drag Race together. like She is obsessed with drag queens. She loves drag queens more than I do. We went to Pride for her to see the winner of Drag Race. Not for me.
01:59:53
Speaker
like I wasn't going to It's your son as opposed to you know someone you can. i think like siblings, there're therere you even 20 maybe, but like you can sort of like, maybe the ties are a bit easier to sort of yeah Not cut, but like to distance.
02:00:13
Speaker
And I do have friends who are still in the church that, you know, I read books from all sides, right? So I read books where they, at the end, they believe that the evangelical way is the way. I've read books that believe that the otherwise.
02:00:31
Speaker
And so I have people who ask me, oh, what are the books you read? And people are only wanting to read the one that ends in the happy ending that they believed. It's really funny. Like what book?
02:00:43
Speaker
mom It's so long ago, I forget already. Let me see. where Like they believe that they're not gay? or like No, they believe it's still like biblically wrong.
02:00:57
Speaker
But then again, it's like they're interpreting the gray areas, right? so People to be loved by Preston Sprinkle. Don't know it. it's It's, I mean, it is good, but, like, he is just definitely interpreting versus the way he believes he should. Yeah.
02:01:16
Speaker
And it's just, like, gray. Like, those things are, they're not as black and white as it seems. So. Yeah. Yeah. I have books if they want it.
02:01:29
Speaker
I have a lot of books. Real quick, to wrap it up, drop drop some drop some some books for for people to to get a better understanding. what's What's like two or three that you feel like everyone should read? Because you're pretty you're pretty well read. what What's like something want to read?
02:01:47
Speaker
That one, I think it's definitely a good read if you want you know ah perspective, an evangelical perspective. It's called People to be Loved.
02:02:00
Speaker
Why Homosexuality is Not Just an Issue. That's by Preston Sprinkle. The other one, um, where is It's been quite a while, so I haven't read these in a long time.
02:02:19
Speaker
Uh, what is it called? Hold on, I have it here somewhere. think it's on my Amazon.
02:02:30
Speaker
Let me see. don maybe I totally forget. like And then another one was... um
02:02:42
Speaker
What is this called?
02:02:51
Speaker
Homosexuality in the church. Both sides of the debate. this Is it two others? It's... a whole bunch of authors. So it's a bunch of articles on like arguing back and forth.
02:03:08
Speaker
So homosexuality in the church, both sides of the debate, it has a blue cover. um And that's a very, it's pretty um academic.
02:03:20
Speaker
It's not for the faint of heart. It's definitely a tough, more of a tough read. You have to like really focus And then the last one was,
02:03:34
Speaker
let me see. There's one more that I think is really good.
02:03:40
Speaker
um Let me see. Let me log in I haven't logged into this in a long time.
02:03:47
Speaker
You're going to have to edit all of this out. i don't I don't know. can't? I mean, yeah, I can. um We're going to just keep it, though. I don't know.
02:04:00
Speaker
You're going to keep this awkward bother? I'm just going to read an intro, and then that that's pretty much going to be it, I think. librarybra That's okay. Oh, here. It's called ah Scripture, Ethics, and the Possibility of Same-Sex Relationships.
02:04:16
Speaker
This is by Karen Keene. Karen Keene. It's a yellow yellow cover. yeah That one is a really good one. that fights for the LGBTQIA Christian.
02:04:30
Speaker
So those are your three books. Yeah, three books for i all fates of the spectrum.
02:04:42
Speaker
Perfect. Okay. I think that's a good place for us then. Comma-Fung, everyone.