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#3 My Friend the Token Testimony - Sháni Pamatz
47 Plays8 months ago
Sháni and Keegan discuss the ethics around testimonies, short-term mission trips, and youth church camps.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
so yeah okay we're good we're live um yeah so we had spoken when when did we we you came up to visit us um I mean you and Tay were just talking about this when when was that like an it was a yeah it was either October or November i can't really remember right now last year And here you are.
00:00:21
Speaker
Were you pregnant then? No, I was not. I don't do math, though. Yeah, i was like, we went we saw you guys, then we moved from Florida, visited family in Hawaii, went to Japan our move, and then basically Japan
Journey and Pregnancy
00:00:38
Speaker
made us pregnant.
00:00:40
Speaker
There we go. How did Japan do that? That's crazy. You know... You know, I could tell the story. It's a little, I don't know if it fits the theme for this podcast, though.
00:00:55
Speaker
Dude, this podcast is already starting off pretty messy, you know? So, i mean, like, if we just talk about how babies are made, I don't think that's true. it's we've already we've already gone all over the place um in the first two episodes so you know yeah are have you have you listened to i did yeah i got to listen what do you think the first one yesterday um because i think it was down for a little bit and then uh i listened to think listened to malia's probably the day before yeah so i i think it don't know it's kind of cool um
00:01:31
Speaker
I feel like Malia and I are really close, I heard a lot of what she had to share before, you know?
Enjoying Past Episodes
00:01:37
Speaker
um But it was cool to hear it in your guys' this conversation. um For Kamahao, I feel like we've gone through like seasons of closeness, but I didn't know a lot of things that he shared.
00:01:49
Speaker
And then I think I was involved with some of the things that he shared. So, i yeah, I just saw him a couple of days ago and hadn't listened to the podcast yet. So we're talking about it a bit.
00:02:00
Speaker
But yeah now I'm like, okay, next time I see him, I might have, and we might talk more about it because I have, yeah, just some questions or thoughts, I guess, to ask him. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of weird.
00:02:13
Speaker
Like, there was so much going on back then, um you know, because cause when did you start getting involved?
Church Connections and Shared Experiences
00:02:23
Speaker
Because I knew your sister because we worked at Papa John's together. Right. Crazy.
00:02:27
Speaker
Yeah. and then and then ah and had i knew her pretty well and then actually you know what i i just thought i was thinking about this when i was uh when i asked you do the first time i had interacted with you was at your home church um this must have been 2000 two thousand and
00:02:53
Speaker
10 2009 wow and we were going to a philippines mission trip and you were at the meeting with your uh mom and with your twin were you on that mission trip my brother was oh my gosh i had no idea did you go yes that was like a 40 person 40 or 50 person trip right yeah yeah so dude that's crazy i Yeah, i I mean, and I think I had thought about this over the years, but hadn't really put it together that, you know, two African-American women in this predominantly Filipino church with a white mother...
00:03:38
Speaker
and who i would later know pretty well at doing church and ministry together they were the same people believe it or not so i guess i didn't put that together in my head and i probably should have but um yeah that's that is actually the first time i think they they played i think about this song quite a lot the uh Follow you into the arms of the broken. Oh my gosh.
00:04:06
Speaker
I'm getting flashbacks. That's crazy. Yep. Yep. I was just thinking about that trip because my little sister, with my my whole family was on it, the four of us, and um my little sister did, she was part of the Mimes skit.
00:04:20
Speaker
Oh, dude. Let's go Mimes. I don't know how they talk talked her into it. I feel like that, i don't i don't know. that was That was crazy. I never did anything like that, but um she was She had some balls. so um Which Mimesgate was? Because there's a few mimes. Oh, gosh. I think it's the one where um all the mimes had hearts, like heart necklaces over them, like a paper heart.
00:04:44
Speaker
And then i think either Jesus gives them the heart or they give Jesus the heart.
Mission Trip Transformation
00:04:50
Speaker
I ah couldn't really tell you more than that. Dude. I actually...
00:04:57
Speaker
Oh, um actually, that trip, I don't know. First of all, so crazy that you remember, like, interacting with us at that point, because was thinking... don't like I've ever brought it up. Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
And, yeah. I don't, I mean, i have a horrible memory as it is, and then I'll remember random things. But I was listening to the last two podcasts and I was like, i don't think Keegan has any random memories with me like that.
00:05:21
Speaker
and then you have this, which is kind of funny. um But that that mission trip I went on, I actually probably shouldn't have technically been on it. I was not really a Christian. um And I got saved on that mission trip. Yeah.
00:05:33
Speaker
No kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, my plan was to go on that trip with, I mean, my family, yeah, they were there, or whatever. But I was going to go on it with my, at the time, girlfriend.
00:05:44
Speaker
And then she dug out and I'd already paid for like most of her trip. ah Such a people pleaser, pushover. But then I ended up with my family.
00:05:55
Speaker
it was family time. And and then i got you like actually encountered Jesus I guess on that trip in a way so that was cool but what what did that what did that look like because okay real quick if we should be talking about you but funny story from that trip yeah my brother mission trips are weird in the evangelical world because a lot the times they're an excuse to do vacation in a different place that's sometimes uh impoverished sometimes not yeah and my brother got a pedicure on that trip and stepped
00:06:29
Speaker
he got a He got a hangnail cut out, stepped in a puddle, and it got brutally infected.
Unexpected Outcomes of Mission Trips
00:06:36
Speaker
all Brutally. Disgustingly infected. And he gets back to Hawaii.
00:06:44
Speaker
It is purple at this point and just blown up. And he goes to the doctor and they have to... put They put a curtain up, anesthetized it. Is that the word?
00:06:55
Speaker
Anesthetized? Local they local anesthetic. okay um Cut it open. Let it drain. Nurses in the room are gagging. and they I mean, nurses. and um Yeah, it was pretty bad. And then the next week, I had gotten some sort of skin infection from...
00:07:16
Speaker
ah wrestling and I went to the same doctor, the same dermatologist and he goes, Drummond, you're the you're the guy with the brother with the toe? That was disgusting.
00:07:28
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Like what? He's just the talk of the town. poor God. yeah Yeah. So but that was that's my that's that was what my brother took back from that mission trip. what in track you What did you get? Jesus infected your heart. my gosh.
00:07:46
Speaker
That's great. um i Honestly, yes. The mission trips as vacations. um I didn't know that at the time. That was my first mission trip that I went on. um We stayed in a really nice hotel, which felt weird, but also like fun. You know, i was, I think I was just, I just turned 18 a few months before and fresh out of high school.
00:08:09
Speaker
And um so, yeah, I was excited. And um first time out of the country also, I believe. And so, um yeah, it was a good time. We stayed in a nice rooms, but then when we went up to the pastor's suite, I was like, whoa, what are we doing here?
00:08:26
Speaker
My dog. Yeah, that whole, I was thinking about that randomly, ah that specific church, um which was planted out from the church that you were a part of at the time, right? and That church actually was like noticed or recognized nationally for its growth rate.
00:08:44
Speaker
And i I was just thinking about that denomination and how much pressure and like focus they put on growth and like I don't know. It's just like, no wonder that pastor like ended up um with some challenges that he did with his health and, and leaving and stuff. um I'm glad to see he's seems better now, but anyways, so we're on that trip and doing fancy things. I don't remember if I got a pedicure.
00:09:10
Speaker
You did have to bring extra money if you're going to do certain things. um And my family was pretty not, you know, uh, like we didn't have enough money to do the extra stuff. So, um, and which is probably a good thing.
00:09:23
Speaker
Uh, and then we're riding on these fancy tour buses too. And, um, we did do some like humanitarian work. It really felt like more of a humanitarian trip to me. Uh, when I signed up for it, we helped with, I think there was a storm right before we went there and we helped like rebuild some parts of some houses and stuff.
00:09:40
Speaker
Um, but it was very much like a, wow, we're doing so much kind of feeling. Um, But we did get to meet a lot of really cool local people that did touch our hearts.
00:09:52
Speaker
um I don't know if it was pity that I was feeling for them at the time or like just like really admiring them for like the joy that they still had even in their impoverishment.
00:10:04
Speaker
um Comparing like what feels like impoverishment here in America that i'm I was living in um to like what is actual impoverishment I think was an interesting thing too.
Renewed Faith and Testimony
00:10:16
Speaker
um But the thing that helped me, think all those things probably like compiled into um my experience of like realizing i love Jesus.
00:10:28
Speaker
um Those all probably impacted me. But one of my friends was on the trip. He had a really ah colorful past and he was only a couple years older than me. and thought it was pretty cool. he was He would share his testimony via rap.
00:10:43
Speaker
So he would like... And he didn't care. it wasn't polished. It wasn't like, he was like kind of the black sheep still, but he was like, I love Jesus. I'm going to like tell people about why I love him.
00:10:55
Speaker
And I was like, dude, this guy did some messed up stuff. I have not done anything like that. i feel like I've like rejected Jesus because I felt like he didn't want me to have what I wanted. And like,
00:11:07
Speaker
didn't want me to be happy the way I thought I should be happy. And this is like, you know, fresh out of high school, 18 year old me. So I'm super mature with my perspectives on life and God. And so um just, I think him sharing his experiences made me realize like, I don't have it that bad.
00:11:25
Speaker
And if God loves him, then God probably still loves me. And I should try to love God again because I grew up in the church. But um I think that was just a turning point for me, like seeing somebody else's experience impacted me and i was like, maybe I need to rethink the things I've been thinking these last couple of years.
00:11:43
Speaker
So, yeah. so you're at the time you're what, what, what made you feel that you couldn't, you weren't in, I guess. Um,
00:11:54
Speaker
i am Well, I was dating a girl in high school. Well, okay. you So you were kind of cognizant of that as you're in this relationship. Yeah. Because I mean, I guess when I first heard that you guys were going go on this trip together, it's sort of, maybe it was like, oh, whatever. I'm in this gay relationship. It doesn't really matter whatever. Yeah.
00:12:11
Speaker
I think I didn't really grow up hearing about like gay people much. um Grew up in Nebraska until I was 12. And then we moved here. We were in a really tiny church there. I don't remember meeting any gay person before, but you kind of just have that knowledge and understanding that that's not right.
00:12:29
Speaker
um So I don't think I want to focus too much on that and like my stance on and whether it's right or not. You know, I think I'm, I'm a little more like open than I was when I first ah receive Jesus now, but um I think I definitely went into relationships for the wrong reason.
00:12:47
Speaker
um So this person I met in high school, and i was like, she was into me, but I was like, I'm straight, so no thanks, but we can be friends. And then all of a sudden, all my Christian friends and family are like, you're hanging out with a gay girl that likes you?
00:13:00
Speaker
You're gay. Like, oh no, Shawnee's turning gay. And I'm like, I'm not, but now I'm being pushed towards this friendship because you guys are so opposed to it. Like, I'm more compelled to be close with this person because of the opposition I was facing being her friend. Just purely sort of rebelling kind of against the... Okay.
00:13:22
Speaker
And maybe feeling a little bit of, um maybe feeling a little bit of, like, ostracism. Ostracized?
Rebellion and Relationship Struggles
00:13:29
Speaker
That's the right word, right? Just feeling like my community and my family was, like,
00:13:34
Speaker
oh, you're doing something wrong. And so I'm like, oh, well, this person accepts me. So like, I'm going to go hang with her. And so then, um you know, that opened up a spot for a relationship to happen.
00:13:45
Speaker
um i I really do think I was... in that relationship more because I was being loved and accepted wholly by this person um as opposed to like you know I'd had one boyfriend before that and he dumped me because I wouldn't like make out with him more and stuff and so I'm like oh this is this is love I don't need to even do anything with her and she likes me so much even when I'm rejecting her kind of um so that started kind of like a really bad pattern in my um romantic life if I even could call it that as such a young I mean my maturity level was just not there um for me to be involved in romantic things anyways but I did so that led me to like another relationship with a
00:14:32
Speaker
girl while I was in this relationship with a girl and just like receiving all the love wherever I could and so um so yeah that's kind of I think knowing that my church and my family were so against these things I was like well God is against me then and if God doesn't want me be happy because this is how I'm happy now then I don't believe God is real or good or whatever, you know?
00:15:01
Speaker
It was kind of just a really simple, okay, if you don't want this for me, then I don't want you for me kind of thing. um So yeah, that's that's kind of how I came to like reject God in my life.
00:15:14
Speaker
I'm not sure if I ever really truly accepted him at that point, if that's how easy it was for me to let go of him. But yeah, that's kind of how I got to that point.
00:15:25
Speaker
but But you're like open enough to go on a mission trip to the Philippines? and We just lied. We lied. I mean, this is my friend, you know, ah even to my mom. i She would like come stay over at her house and stuff. And like, my mom is such a nice person.
00:15:42
Speaker
She's not dumb. She knew, but like she didn't want to probably believe for a while um that some more things were going on. And so, ah yeah, we just lied to everyone and denied um that there was any actual relationship going on.
00:15:56
Speaker
And so, um yeah, no one on the mission trip, the trip was so big that we slipped through the cracks. Like no one had to personally know us to on that trip. They're just like, oh, family's coming. That's great.
00:16:07
Speaker
um And so, yeah, so we, yeah, it was just like, this trip sounds good. Like we should go help people. And she was definitely not a Christian, but she was down for community. So we're just going to church, still going to youth group. Like,
00:16:23
Speaker
getting in trouble at youth group because they were just, don't know, sneaking away and stuff, just doing dumb stuff. So we didn't, I don't know how I had so little shame. just lied a bunch and, and, uh, deceived people in little ways that, um, would look silly now, but it felt like really important to me at that moment.
00:16:43
Speaker
know in time It's kind of interesting that you're even willing to still go to church, to, to go on a mission trip, do all these things to live out, a Christian life and live in Christian community yeah while being in this relationship? Well, I mean, you said kind of rejecting God at that point.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, what's holding it together for you? I mean, why are, what are you showing up
Pressures of Christian Life
00:17:07
Speaker
for? I'm pretty sure my mom said I had to go to church or like it was probably some ultimatum like that.
00:17:14
Speaker
Like, you know, you're going to get your phone taken away. going to be grounded, whatever. um Probably just kind of trying to keep the peace in a sense while also creating a bunch of turmoil in my family's life.
00:17:24
Speaker
So, um and then, you know, my twin sister and I have always been really close. Now my little sister and I are also really close. But at the time, think my twin sister and I, even if we like hated each other at the moment, we did everything together.
00:17:37
Speaker
he kind of had to slash wanted to. So um wherever she was, I was. So. yeah that's it just kind of was that way and we also lived like we went to church on the west side but we lived super far west at that point and didn't have a car like i don't know it's kind of like a safety thing to like to always be together so yeah yeah I don't know it doesn't really make sense logically but I'm kind of glad it all worked out that way to like just keep us in community because I think I would have ended up in a much worse place like
00:18:13
Speaker
I don't even know how to like put it into words, but we were just like not careful, like with the people we surrounded ourselves with outside of church and stuff. um So there's, we could have gotten into some dangerous situations. And I think being involved in church kept us a little safer, you know?
Paradox of Safety in Rejection
00:18:30
Speaker
So yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting because you and Kama sort of have a shared experience of being gay and in a very publicly evangelical, anti-gay, I mean, to be honest, ah church, right? I mean, um it's, but at the same time, feel it's it's interesting that you sort of have you both share this feeling that this church that does not recognize the, you're you're like being gay and accepting that, but like you're still safe there. It's it's sort of strange. And it's not i don't it's not, I don't want to say it's a sort of Stockholm syndrome or whatever, but it's very interesting that that the this church becomes a safe place despite it rejecting
00:19:30
Speaker
openly the way you're living your life. Yeah. I think one thing that helped with my situation is that
00:19:39
Speaker
um the youth pastor I had at the time, he was, he had a history of being in a gay relationship and think he would have identified as gay. i I have a hard time saying that I was, I was gay for a time. I was a lesbian, whatever. yeah um But I wouldn't,
00:20:00
Speaker
I didn't like put thought into it. It wasn't like my whole, whole identity. I tried to avoid it and like deny it. Um, so I don't, I feel like I've faced some opposition from some gay people like, oh, you weren't really gay or like whatever. I'm like, okay, it's not a big deal.
00:20:14
Speaker
But this guy, he had, you know, a period ah in his life that he was in, um, a gay relationship. And he, I think that probably allowed him to to be more gracious and accepting of me, even if it didn't feel accepting to me. Like he wasn't straight up, like you can't come around or like, like this is a problem.
Influence of a Youth Pastor
00:20:35
Speaker
he talked to my mom if my mom wanted to talk things out, but like, he was never like, yeah, let's bombard them and like get them to pray the gay away. Like nothing like that. So that might've been a big factor for me, not,
00:20:48
Speaker
not like cognizantly back then, but maybe looking back on it now. um And he's one of my really good friends now. So I think that probably maybe created a safe space without me even knowing it.
00:21:01
Speaker
But yeah. Also, nobody really knew me. So that probably helped. I just looked through the cracks pretty easily. so Yeah. I mean, and it's just, it's, it's a place that's,
00:21:16
Speaker
positively, ah aesthetically positive. You know, you walk in, there's people hugging and sharing the gospel and singing happy songs, singing sad songs and crying together, laughing together, whatever. I mean, I guess it sort of has this positive feeling where you walk in. And I mean, that's why I think even non-Christians can walk into any evangelical seek or seeker-sensitive church and walk out and feel, oh, I'm feel safe here i feel like yeah i belong to you know and and that's kind of interesting so you
Impact of Church Relationships
00:21:53
Speaker
obviously when when you and i sort of get to know each other um you eventually um i think i met you at a dodgeball and then you already had a boyfriend at the time um was a bad time too oh my gosh yeah you know um
00:22:12
Speaker
And it's, and I don't know, it's it's kind of weird to say this now, but I feel that there was sort of this identifying thing of, oh, Shani, who was in the gay relationship before. Like we knew your sister because we knew her before, I think. yeah But, um and because of her involvement, I think she was an intern in the youth ministry, whatever.
00:22:32
Speaker
And I, you know worked with her at Papa John's, whatever. But then it was, oh, Shawnee, the twin sister that was in the gay relationship. you do you Did you feel that? I mean, are you sensing that as you kind of come in? Because, you know, this is 2012, 2013, 2014.
00:22:47
Speaker
It would have been around 2011 and 12, yeah. Yeah, and mean, well, and I think this is sort of the height well and i think this is sort of the height of Well, I mean, right before um House Bill 444 gets passed in, 2014. Yeah, 2014.
00:23:09
Speaker
So I think this dialogue around gay people and and Christians in Hawaii specifically becomes much more amplified. Like, are you feeling that sort of the eye of everyone on you about that situation or...
00:23:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think
Testimonies and Grief
00:23:28
Speaker
so. I think in the church, like, there's such a heavy, um there's such a heavy burden of like, be ready to share your testimony, you know, and, um and I was so, like i said, so young, like, just coming out of high school, ah when these, this like transformation happened.
00:23:47
Speaker
ah not much else had gone wrong in my life for me to share a story about. And so, yeah, I think it was like, oh yeah, use this, you know, write about this, be prepared to share about this. And, um and, you know, sometimes it was like weird and hard, especially because I put my family through so much during that time.
00:24:06
Speaker
um And so I think that caused me to have to like talk to my mom, especially ah when I was going to share, and give my testimony somewhere. And, um,
00:24:17
Speaker
And I think that was always hard because we communicate, but we don't always communicate great. And um I think just the amount of like encouragement that I received from other people, like how God did something amazing in your life.
00:24:34
Speaker
You should share it. It felt like just such a positive thing to me. And, um you know, looking back, I don't think it was always positive. It was very shallow.
00:24:45
Speaker
ah way to share that time in my life. And it was an interesting a way to like make that all that I was. um And that's just not it. Like, so, so looking back, yeah, I'm like, okay, I think I was maybe not used. I don't want to use that word because I don't think most people in my life at the church was, were malicious um in asking me to share these things. But I think it was um maybe not always necessary to like be highlighting that and I also had no like awareness of the political atmosphere um I heard about uh HB444 but didn't really understand didn't get into politics even a little bit until way later so um yeah didn't understand that and I think that it was kind of a tool like let's share about these transformative stories that would support us supporting that or going against it whatever um yeah
00:25:40
Speaker
Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, I guess the bringing up HP 444 is kind of just the cultural milieu in which we're talking about gay people. I mean, pastors are going to the state Capitol building and rejecting this bill.
Commodification of Testimonies
00:25:54
Speaker
And yeah I think some got banned from the Capitol because they had been publicly protesting it. Yeah.
00:26:02
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, that that's kind of an interesting thing that you bring up about testimonies because that's something I always felt really uncomfortable with. And I don't, you know, and to be fair, i don't know, you know, I was about to say, I don't know if it's a church thing, but I feel like it is sometimes that that it's just this this desire to sort of just rush through any uncomfortability or scandal or grief and just get a right to a testimony and i don't know i'm just thinking of a couple of instances in our church even you know i actually just thought about this one time where um
00:26:46
Speaker
one of our, in high school, a kid on our football team died. And the next week, his mom was at the game doing a
Evangelical Positivity and Missing Stories
00:26:55
Speaker
testimonial. And, you know, the football coach was an evangelical guy, pretty well known in the evangelical sphere.
00:27:01
Speaker
And I just, i've it was always this sort of impulse in Kauai evangelicalism to just have those stories.
00:27:11
Speaker
Yeah. even... then you know as a 16 year old kid i felt really uncomfortable about how it i mean i know you're saying it wasn't necessarily being used but it did it felt like these stories were almost commodified in a way and i i felt uncomfortable and i don't i didn't have a crazy story but hearing all these people it's just i don't know like what do you feel okay sharing this all the time i mean it's and
00:27:43
Speaker
while ironically telling this person that that's not the singular thing that defines them as ah as a human being, like, I don't know, it's just kind of a weird sort of impulse that always existed.
00:27:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. i i think it's like lacking the grief process that we like so, and feel like a lot of the testimonies that would be shared required like the grief process to get through and actually like grow through things.
00:28:15
Speaker
And um like the mom of the football player, like that is so fast. And it's great if you have like good things to share. It's just kind of like putting the expectation that like everything is all right and everything should be all right, right after you've like lost somebody or right after you've experienced something tragic or um done something really bad like hit right so yeah and like yes God can be good and also things can be hard and bad at the same time so I feel like that yeah that that message doesn't come across in most testimonies in that in this sphere that what message do you think doesn't come out um the like the fact that God can be good and like
00:29:02
Speaker
this can be a really hard thing to overcome this thing that I'm sharing. and I feel like usually it's like, like you said, it's just kind of like expedited. Like this is what I went through or this is what I did where this is what happened to me.
00:29:16
Speaker
But God is so good and not like, but it took me like a really long time to like yeah figure out that God is good and that I'm going to, that things can be okay again, but I can also still have really dark days and ah you know, that kind of message, I feel like, was lacking a lot of testimonies.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah, i you know, and that's, i I always think how evangelicals, there was never really, grief wasn't accepted.
00:29:49
Speaker
And grief wasn't, yeah, it wasn't this acceptable feeling. Even, ah there was this one, Good Friday service where, you know, we're in whatever, one of the big arenas. And it was actually my wife's birthday on Good Friday. And we go to service and, you know, we're playing whatever, some top 20 Hillsong song or whatever, but it's a banger.
Irony of Church Services
00:30:21
Speaker
And I'm just thinking, you know, and we're talking about the presence of Christ in the room. And I was just thinking to myself, and I'm only, you know, 19 at the time. You know, I'm not this profound theological thinker that I am now, clearly.
00:30:44
Speaker
um no I mean, but there... I'm just imagining what the crucified Jesus looks like in that room, you know, while we're clapping our hands and, you know, it just felt so ridiculous. I don't know.
00:31:03
Speaker
feel even, I feel like people were saying happy Easter at good Friday services. Sometimes I don't know. It just, or happy good Friday. Like, what do you say? But don't know.
00:31:15
Speaker
And the the whole like um narrative, the and it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just like, Sunday's a coming. like yeah Just focus on that, you know? Which is, don't know.
00:31:28
Speaker
It's good. It's just not the whole thing, the whole story. Yeah. There's a tension, right? I mean, you think of the Christ on the cross and he says, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And he's quoting the psalm.
00:31:43
Speaker
gosh I should know what Psalm that is off the top of my head, but don't. Obviously, there's this this feeling of forsakenness, but there's also ah recognition at the end of the Psalm that the writer of that Psalm, I think David, includes that you know the sovereignty of God in in that forsakenness.
00:32:03
Speaker
and that's this sort of dual tension that you're holding on Good Friday. And it's clear that's what Jesus is holding because he quotes that Psalm intentionally, would seem.
00:32:18
Speaker
And the gospel writers point us to that. But yeah, just that feeling of grief is just, um I don't know. It's what do you, he you can't rush it.
00:32:32
Speaker
And yeah, But if you do it, you can put a sick video package together and maybe do a sign dance with it or something. So true. So true. And I was always sharing my testimony and someone else would come out and do a special because I don't have any creative gifts.
Creative Expressions in Church
00:32:47
Speaker
So so I was like, oh man, I didn't get the whole experience. I didn't dance or sing for anybody.
00:32:55
Speaker
what What song would they do? Like Born This Way or something? Oh my gosh. and Honestly, I would have loved that. um But yeah, I have no recollection. i I do remember at school, at a Bible college, one specific time, and think someone did like a interpretive dance with like flowy, flowy clothes or flowy flag thingies.
00:33:17
Speaker
i I didn't know about that. I was, just had a picture. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was during a chapel. So it was student led, you know, very, It was desire to be very creative and expressive. so Yo, chapels were wild.
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah, they were. Chapels were wild. Did you ever chapel lead? I did. And it was like at a time where I used to really love chapels. And then I like stopped as much, stopped liking it as much. It felt like everything was changing.
00:33:45
Speaker
And um it was a lot more surface level. And on and so I was like, I'm going to lead and try to like see if we can bring back some foundation.
Awkwardness of Spiritual Expectations
00:33:55
Speaker
And then I had a lot of pushback and nobody liked that's probably That's probably not true.
00:33:59
Speaker
I won't say nobody liked me. There was a lot of newer students that would come in and they're like, I thought that speaking in tongues during chapel was acceptable and encouraged. And and I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know if that's necessary, but like we're not going to make our whole chapel service speaking in tongues.
00:34:18
Speaker
um and it's No, we have to stop class to speak in tongues, actually. What? Did you not? No, did you never hear about that? No, I didn't. Oh, that was a thing.
00:34:29
Speaker
So they they had to... someone There was this moment. i don't I don't even remember who it was. and Obviously, i wouldn't say. But there's some moment where... I don't even think it was a really relevant class for this, but someone just has this episode in the spirit, and everything shuts down, basically, because the professor's just sort of sitting there going...
00:34:56
Speaker
what um what do I do here? What do I do? And it's almost this ah slain in the spirit mutiny of some sort. And the president of the college a week later has to send out a letter to the entire student body saying, okay, this is what you do in the case of someone having this spirit episode where, and I'm just,
00:35:24
Speaker
Bro, I'm just trying to take a church admin class and move In church admin? No, I don't know what class it was. i wasn't even in that class. It was just I get this email and I hear all these stories afterward.
00:35:37
Speaker
But, yo, that was crazy. That is crazy. Wow. I just remember I never received the gift of tongues and there was a lot of shame around that.
00:35:50
Speaker
But then I was like, I'm pretty sure I have other gifts and I'm okay without speaking in tongues. Like if God's not going to let me do it, now I'm just like super fine with that. I know't and don't know if it's necessary for me to have that, you know?
00:36:06
Speaker
But yeah, remember this pressure of like, ah if you pray for it and if you ask for it and if this really spiritual leader is walking around, anointing you with oil and stuff, then you're going to receive it.
00:36:18
Speaker
And if not, you probably need to get something out of your life that's not good. And i'm like, wow. I don't know. don't know when I'll get to that point then. but were you Were you at that camp where that um baptism in the spirit happened?
00:36:35
Speaker
Was it a young adults camp? No. okay. High school. Probably, but I have no recollection. There was... so ah And you might, because, you know, so,
Journey to Pastorship
00:36:47
Speaker
okay. And maybe some background. so So you, you come, you come from the satellite campus, which eventually just becomes its own sort of thing, that this extremely fast growing church.
00:36:58
Speaker
But you come from that church to the main sort of mother church and get involved in youth ministry. You go to the Bible college that's out of it.
00:37:10
Speaker
And eventually you become the fourth through sixth grade pastor. And, you know, you're preaching every weekend. I think you're you're sharing it with someone else.
00:37:23
Speaker
And that becomes your sort of ministry is this fourth and sixth grade thing. And you do that. how did How long did you do that? 2015 to Yeah, six years. Okay,
00:37:37
Speaker
one six years yeah six years okay okay So you weren't you weren't doing any of the junior high and high school things? Were you like around still or helping out? I was around. Yeah. I would help out most of the time with camps and bigger things. But yeah, it wasn't my main ministry.
00:37:57
Speaker
Yeah. because Okay. So yeah, this one camp where where it's you know the the Holy Spirit cry night. Are you called to full-time ministry? you know Whatever. We're going send 20 kids to Bible college and they're going to all drop out after the first semester.
00:38:12
Speaker
And which happened almost every year.
Controversial Church Camp Experience
00:38:17
Speaker
And i remember the senior pastor comes to do the baptism in the spirit, but we didn't know.
00:38:26
Speaker
So we're all sitting on the sideline and okay, last night at camp, everyone's going to start crying and praying for each other. And he gets up there and he's like,
00:38:38
Speaker
leaders, I want you to line up the front and I want you to start praying in tongues over these kids so that they receive the gift of tongues. And everyone's sort of just standing in there going, why what' what? What's happening? and um And the kids were walking up to me and just walking away so disappointed. And they're like,
00:39:05
Speaker
you know nothing happened. Nothing happened. And that was always really hard. And yeah. And remember even one kid praying for another kid to receive the um the gift of tongues and supposedly he received it and And then we have this like demonic episode afterward and it was crazy.
00:39:31
Speaker
And I don't know, there was just always these weird types of things that happened at church camps that were always very uncomfortable for everyone involved. I don't know if that really happened at the, the you know, because you're like, what?
00:39:48
Speaker
Nine to nine years a year old. We actually only had fourth and fifth grade. but we sometimes combine the camps with the middle school so fourth to eighth grade but yeah there was like a lot of emotional moments that I don't feel like and looking back especially it's like do they know what they're emotional about like do we know like yeah ah yeah definitely fun great memories I think um I think I had an experience recently I shared with you, Taeyang and Malia, when we were in Virginia, um, about one of the high school girls, cause I would do the cabin leading at high school camps usually.
00:40:28
Speaker
And, um, one of the girls from years ago called me like it a year or two ago and was like very upset with how I handled something that she shared with me. And, um, I had no idea, no idea that I did anything that offended her.
00:40:44
Speaker
um I feel like I'm always a pretty passive, aye not passive with like everything, but like in regards to handling a child who is not mine, is not my relative, like giving them advice, I want to advise them passively, you know, ah kind of lead them towards like,
00:41:03
Speaker
obeying their parents as long as they're not being abused and um and then like the desires of their heart that is feels so important and like they're fiery and passionate about it at the moment like maybe sit on that for a minute and like give it some time um but this this student was very bothered by me suppressing the things she was passionate about and
Emotional Experiences at Church Camps
00:41:26
Speaker
um and wanted to let me know so that I never hurt anyone like that again and I was like dang am I in a cult show right now like I feel like I'm like being confronted and like outed as like some like person who's done something so horrible to so many people.
00:41:40
Speaker
um But in reality, it was a one-time thing. But looking back, I'm like, how many students did feel that way? Or how many students um maybe are looking back on these experiences and they were fun, and but now they have regrets about being involved at all? like Because there wasn't more, like I guess, I don't even know what was what's missing, but there's something missing.
00:42:06
Speaker
It's like maybe camps should just be fun time and not be like this big emotional, like transformative um expectation put on the camps. And yeah, we can do Bible studies, but maybe we don't need to like press that last night, especially um where confessions and like, I don't know, pouring out dark secrets need to happen that night, you know?
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah. And I even, I remember... you know, I'm standing in the front and I think kids were supposed to at one point write down things that were bothering him in their life.
00:42:45
Speaker
And, you know, I'm, I'm leading the boys cabin, but the boys cabin has a sister cabin or whatever, where, you know, we got boys and girls team or whatever. We're all under this one sort of banner.
00:42:57
Speaker
And so the girls on that cabin get to know me and girls were like coming up to me and sharing their notes with me. I'm like, I don't want this. I don't want to know. And, you know, and crying and obviously going to pray for you or whatever in front of all these people. You know, I'm just trying not to be scandalized or scandalous in any way. i just, but it was very, very strange as a young man to yeah be surrounded by all these honestly, extremely vulnerable
00:43:33
Speaker
children yeah girls who and that was weird and yeah i'm surprised we aren't hearing more story horror stories right i you know and i don't know and but yeah i do kind of wonder what what should should we and i might have even said that should we just have big big dodgeball game for three days it's just a huge camp dodgeball love that i know i don't know we're all in on dodgeball but yeah you know i don't know what do you what do you do we had some great games yeah super good yeah we did and yeah so much creativity comes out during camp time and like we're a resourceful group too you know like
00:44:20
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. some Some of our friends, I don't want to like say a bunch names, but like they're just so smart and they figure out like Star Wars themed games and like yeah just like it's crazy. and And yeah, that should be the focus. We're so good at that. yeah No, I don't know. I haven't put much thought into how camps could be better. i don't think we have to get, like we as in like whoever's still doing youth ministry, I'm not doing anything now, but um like I don't know, do do good, fun things that will bring good memories for these kids because they those memories are being made, but, like, leave out anything that's going to traumatize. and Like, and yeah.
00:45:01
Speaker
i I also am, like, a strong believer in, like, um letting faith develop at home um and not just pressuring it in youth
Faith Development in Family Settings
00:45:12
Speaker
ministries. Like, it how are you going to, how is this student going to have a real relationship with Jesus if it's just happening at church and like the parents don't get to be involved. i don't know. I just, I feel like it's lacking something huge.
00:45:25
Speaker
um When we're the only ones, I'm not saying that all, no parents are ever involved with their kids, but I just think we should. And I think that was something that we never quite grasped was that we were doing ministry in, you know, when in your previous home church and then coming to to ours in two of,
00:45:47
Speaker
Probably the most impoverished areas of Oahu, I would say. I mean, obviously, you know, there's there's quite a lot of yeah poverty and, um you know, historical disenfranchisement.
Ministry in Impoverished Areas
00:46:00
Speaker
But, I mean, weirdly enough, we're in the two largest Filipino communities on Oahu. Yeah. you know, multiple housing developments and even a prison right next to the church. i mean, fine you know, we're dropping off kids at these areas that we grew up knowing as these notorious hotspots for you know drugs and prostitution, whatever. And we're like dropping these kids off at home and yeah saying, all right, there you go. And they're like, Hey, just keep driving. Don't stop. We're going to just tuck and roll.
00:46:38
Speaker
yeah you know i don't i don't know if we ever really got i mean i didn't at least i mean you i mean you grew up on the west side and you know but i grew up in kind of a nice neighborhood whatever yeah i love your house oh dude yeah unfortunately it's it's not well maintained now from what i heard which is quite sad yeah we should i'll go buy it from the Dude, that's my dream.
00:47:04
Speaker
That's my dream. The saga will get monetized first off. And basically basically, I just need to, you know we're going to do however many people did ministry with me 10 to 15 years ago.
00:47:18
Speaker
And they those are going to be the core listeners. And then we're going to have an affiliate program. Everyone's going to buy the things that I advertise. And then- I'm going to go buy my parents' house.
00:47:32
Speaker
I'm going to buy that thing back. I love like a ra support that plan. Yeah. yeah What are you going to Make some like merch? I'll buy some merch. Yeah, dude. I need help. I need help with the production of it. Obviously, there were episodes down for an entire week. and You figured it out. It's fine.
00:47:52
Speaker
You know, we'll get there. We'll get there.
00:47:57
Speaker
Anyways, back to poverty. i just yeah i don't know if we ever really understood that. and you know We're going to a church. actually just brought this up at a Bible study. We're going to a church where pastors are constantly talking about all the things they have, you know the boats and the
Critique of Wealth in Church Leadership
00:48:16
Speaker
ranches, whatever. and what and what are these people are supposed to do? Just go, wow, that's that's really cool, Pastor, or whatever. right you know
00:48:29
Speaker
And it's like, you can love them as people, but you can be so disappointed in some of the things that pastors say, too. We had a young adults pastor who would often like talk about how he prayed for a hot wife and God gave it to him.
00:48:46
Speaker
ah And and i was like, I mean, like, I love that you love your wife and that you think she's hot and I think she's beautiful. I love her. um But sometimes that can be discouraging to a group that, like, might not fit the societal norm of hot wife, you know?
00:49:04
Speaker
um So, and then, like, I think it gets in, it can get into young men's minds as well. Like, okay, i need to hold out for a hot wife
Pressure on Pastor's Wives
00:49:10
Speaker
or something. I could be wrong. I'm not a young man. so no that's 100% correct. No, I think so.
00:49:15
Speaker
I yeah mean, we we all had...
00:49:20
Speaker
extremely i don't know that's i don't know that's kind of weird but like yeah there were there were extremely high standards for you know i was trying to be a pastor and i'm thinking of who's going to be the pastor's wife you know the ideal right wife it's gonna yeah smoking hot wife right yeah no i think that's totally that's totally justified yeah yeah and after i that boyfriend you mentioned earlier at the dodgeball tournament or whatever um after I broke up with him and that was such a horrible relationship, like I was like, okay, I'm only going date like people in the in church, which limits you so much because you just surround your friends and the same people. Most of them ozos too.
00:50:06
Speaker
and So definitely not the best like standard to switch to. And thankfully I broke away from that eventually and found my beautiful, amazing Mexican man. But I am just like, I was like, okay, like kind of idealizing and idolizing these young guys around me that were like, their goal was to be pastors. And I'm like, I want to be the pastor's wife, you know what I mean? And so um went through that season of just like delusion, think, in a sense of just like, this is what needs to happen for me to have like a good and God honoring life is to, yeah meet someone here and be that like awesome person.
00:50:47
Speaker
pastor's wife or whatever. so And that becomes this, and even when I was in seminary, and you know not an evangelical, but a Protestant seminary, that was a thing that we discussed in American religion courses was the trope of the the smoking hot wife.
00:51:05
Speaker
And I don't know where that comes from, of but it was a thing. It was a thing across the board. Everyone had a smoking hot wife in those words i don't know almost feels like a script yeah you have a you have a smoking hot wife i don't know and yeah i mean obviously teah felt pressure to be not a smoking hot wife but a pastor's wife and you know she actually just told me a story where did i ever tell you about the time i preached about it but where i got bit by a dog that i was trying to help
00:51:44
Speaker
i don't I don't remember. Remind me. Okay, yeah. we we A dog got loose in our neighborhood and we were trying to help it into the owner's car. And she was ah she's disabled. She couldn't walk.
00:51:56
Speaker
And so she her dog's just running around the neighborhood and she can't do anything about it because she can't walk. And I yell at her not knowing that she can't walk. And I oh my gosh, get your...
00:52:15
Speaker
freaking husky out of the road i'm gonna hit it and she she starts crying because i yell her and um which i felt terrible about now yeah and her car was broken down also in the middle of the road her her life was just falling apart i feel terrible for yelling at her um So I go to rescue this dog.
00:52:41
Speaker
But meanwhile, and I didn't know this, tail was kind of standing there counseling the lady and ends up praying for her. And I, were we were discussing this last week and I was kind of puzzled by that because it's just not her character to just go up to someone like, Hey, do you need prayer? She always yeah felt kind of cringe about that.
00:53:04
Speaker
But, she was uh telling me like yeah i was trying to be the pastor's wife ah and i go well i guess that's kind of what that looks like is yeah idiot that yells at a woman who can't walk and um eventually got bit by that husky and um yeah it was it was was the bite bad No, but you know, it's funny, and this, this old couple, they went to get the dog first and, and then we showed up on the scene after the fact where they had failed. And the old couple, the wife comes up to me and she says, don't mess around with this dog. It just bit me. i'm going to go to urgent care.
00:53:47
Speaker
And I'm like, whatever lady, I mean, this is this husky and it was going fine. And I tried lifting the dog into the Hummer.
00:53:59
Speaker
that this lady was driving so i grabbed under its belly and then that was that was what did it when i grabbed under its belly it just flipped the switch dang yeah okay wow that's wild yeah yeah that is that is interesting taia yeah compelled to respond that way Yeah, because, I mean, obviously, you two are friends. and I mean, maybe maybe she's like that with her friends. But, yeah, i mean, in my experience with her working with her ministry, it wasn't like her to necessarily yeah yeah go out there. But it was kind of the the facade of what a good pastor's wife looks like, I guess. It looks like praying for someone.
00:54:44
Speaker
Yeah. you know
00:54:49
Speaker
but Have you never heard that story? I think I did. I think you might have shared it in Virginia, actually. Oh, Because it it does sound familiar, but.
00:55:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I'm telling you, my memory is horrible. Well, and then I got bit at the car lot, which we we, and that's the other thing, we used to work together at the car lot. We did.
00:55:11
Speaker
Yeah. That was so interesting. Yeah. And that was when I, nope, never mind.
00:55:19
Speaker
i think i was like very minimally employed there while you were there and then i came back like full time after you had left yeah yeah yeah felt the full force of it contract employee yeah yeah yeah it was intense they used car sales and that was kind of weird how they all worked at in used cars and all the christian people all the christian people and that was yeah that was always that was always very interesting that yeah and i would tell people as
Community Interconnectedness
00:55:49
Speaker
I'm doing test drives yeah i'm at bible college yeah what you what are you doing what are you doing honestly miss selling cars it was a good time I really enjoyed it like totallyly I miss just working with friends like i yeah yeah I like care anyways I don't miss the like unhealthiness that was also present but like working with friends was pretty fun most days so yeah I'd go back to that yeah
00:56:18
Speaker
Not that same place, though. 100%. it's ah it's ah it was a unique It was a unique experience that everyone should have working in ah in the used car industry. But, dude, there were there are a lot of stories. I can't even share them on here. yeah but it But they were all – it was a great time. I learned so much from that.
00:56:41
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, good stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um Gosh, there was something I was going to ask you. I mean, so, I mean, you're preparing to be a mother.
00:56:53
Speaker
That's kind of interesting. Yeah. You know, I guess the whole point of this podcast is talking to people 10 to 15 years after I did ministry with them and seeing what's going on now. I mean, did you ever see yourself becoming a mother?
00:57:08
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I've always loved kids. And I think actually over time, it didn't become less like I felt like I saw myself being a mom less. It's like I became more aware of the challenges that will come with motherhood.
00:57:23
Speaker
um I think being in the church, I was like, i remember specifically one family did a testimony about, I can't tell you exactly what it was about, but they had a van load of children, ah van load of children, like a 15 passenger van load.
00:57:37
Speaker
of children and so i was like that's the goal you know I'm
Desire for Motherhood
00:57:41
Speaker
pretty sure it's 19 or 20 I was like I just want all the kids I can have meanwhile no no like my maturity level is still very low I think I i was a I can't say I was like performing but I think I was like uh I would respond positively to affirmation from others and so anyone that was one of my leaders like would lead me to do certain things and and I would do them well. And they're like, you're doing great, Shani. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to keep doing this thing.
00:58:13
Speaker
So I think my faith was in God was there, but it was also like mostly my adoration for the people that were affirming me. um So anyways, my maturity level just like very slowly increased. I feel like, um,
00:58:31
Speaker
So I have no like romantic prospects and I'm just sitting here dreaming about my future with all these children and and a husband yeah somehow.
00:58:42
Speaker
And I wanted to have children as young as I possibly could. I don't know why. i think it just sounds cool to be a young parent in my mind back then. Um, but then thankfully I got to see so many of my friends get married younger than me, have kids younger than me and, uh, exemplify like the hard work that it takes to put into those relationships and those life changes.
00:59:07
Speaker
Um, and though I still wanted those things and like felt like I was mourning every year that went by that I didn't get a boyfriend that would become my husband or, um and give me children,
00:59:20
Speaker
I think looking back now, once I met Izzy, I was like so excited to start this new chapter of our life together that now that I'm becoming a mom, I'm so excited, but I'm also like mourning the loss of our time, like our one-on-one time together. um And yeah, I'm just, I'm so grateful for the life that I have right now.
00:59:43
Speaker
um But I think because we met a little bit later than I ever thought I would, we met when I was 30, got married when was 31 and now I'm about to be 34 and have a child.
00:59:56
Speaker
And so we really had such a small amount of time together, you know, um and so many life transitions since we've been together. So I think with those life changes and the quickness of our relationship, um I'm just like, man, I like him so much. I just want to keep hanging out with him.
01:00:12
Speaker
And I know that challenges will come with being parents. um And so, yeah, I'm ready as much as I can be without knowing what's coming.
01:00:23
Speaker
and I am confident in our like relationship that we'll be able to um re-center ourselves and refocus on each other, even when things get hard. We'll ask for help. like We have some pretty solid foundations that I think will make parenthood and marriage like still good and work together.
01:00:43
Speaker
but yeah, that's very excited, very nervous, but yeah oh and that's actually yeah ah you know you bring up izzy and that's something i'll also want to ask about uh you know we're talking about people idolizing marriage and obviously this is going sound kind of ironic coming from me who met my wife in junior high ministry gets married at 18 years old and does ministry after and i think um Yeah, it's just obviously a bit um ironic and hypocritical coming from me.
Relationships Outside Ministry
01:01:20
Speaker
But I noticed that a lot of the women in our ministry really couldn't do a relationship with a guy in the ministry.
01:01:36
Speaker
It just didn't really work out well. And i don't know, yeah we have that and that's, you know, I think i keep bringing up the concept of this podcast sort of in this meta way, but I don't think people really understand.
01:01:54
Speaker
i this community that we had was so interconnected and everything was so close. I mean, you and i are, I'm working a career.
01:02:07
Speaker
and I'm working with everyone I grew up with basically in this in this car. lot Like everything kind of centers around if you do something that's not affiliated with this ministry in some way, it's kind of odd.
01:02:21
Speaker
yeah So you and a number of other women in particular, I think that were involved in the ministry really only find success in dating outside of the ministry.
01:02:37
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's the men's fault. No, a hundred percent. hundred Yeah. I think, and you know, maybe not for everybody, but there's a handful of friends close to me that were like either in relationships with people in our community and the guys just were either like not down to commit or taken forever. Like,
01:02:57
Speaker
hey, not everybody's going to hang on for 10 years of like secret dating two yeah to marry you. um And if that's what you need, then you got to find someone else. So um anyways, i I think that was a pretty bad pattern in our community. um ah don't know if holiness was the end goal or or looking holy because there's a whole lot of unholiness happening.
01:03:21
Speaker
um If you want to really talk about that. But um I think that yeah, there it's it's okay to not be compatible too. Like, I understand I had interest in some of our friends and um those things didn't work out. And honestly, thank God, like we're all happier now and yeah friendships are better now um because those things didn't work out or weren't forced or whatever. But um I think it it just comes down to, at the end of the day, this community was too small.
01:03:49
Speaker
Like, it was big in some senses, and then in other ways, like, we weren't meant to stay just in this community. they this is This is the part, I think, that makes people feel like are our church or churches like our church are like cults, which I don't think that. I think there's a lot of messed up stuff happening, but um I think it can feel culty because it's so closed off sometimes.
Cult-like Perception of Church Community
01:04:14
Speaker
um And we're like, come on, like new people come like, but yeah really ah it's, it's, it just stays pretty close. um But one thing that I was encouraged by was ah this, this couple, um one, the husband is a pastor at the church.
01:04:30
Speaker
He doesn't really preach. He, he, he's a pastor of like, an interesting department of the church and he, um, more on like the stagey stuff and like musicy stuff.
01:04:43
Speaker
And his wife, who I don't think works at the church in any capacity, but she like volunteers and think she, I think she like might homeschool some of her kids or something really, really always loved them. They're just kind of like chill people. And,
01:04:56
Speaker
When um our friend who led the ah fourth and fifth grade ministry with me, when we decided we like, we did so much together, like to a ridiculous extent, we left the ministry together.
01:05:07
Speaker
And, um and it was like, we were in school together, working together. So we sat down together with this couple and they were just giving us advice on like our next separate life steps. And um I remember the wife specifically saying like, just get out, get out. Like, excuse me.
01:05:25
Speaker
in she's like, get outside the church. Get outside of Hawaii if you can. Like, spend some time in places you haven't been familiar with because you'll find that you've been really sheltered.
01:05:39
Speaker
And um new opportunities will come your way when you leave this thing you've been so used to. And that sounded so unappealing to
Growth Outside the Church
01:05:48
Speaker
me. i was like, what? This is like where my people are. I'm passionate about these things. and But then I was like, she's definitely right. I'm old enough to understand that this is a good idea.
01:06:01
Speaker
i just didn't want it. um But then I was like, once I left the youth ministry, I think I felt this weight lift off of me. And i downloaded a dating app.
01:06:13
Speaker
And that is how I met my husband. So, and he's like, the only, I had a really ideal experience. Most of my friends haven't had this, but um talked to some random people that were like not it and then ended up talking to him and he was like just really intentional and just wanted to hang out with me and showed me just a lot of like effort and he's the only one had to go on a date with and then I like super loved him so so it just worked out so well for me um and that's I literally didn't even have to step super far away from this community I started serving a little bit with
01:06:51
Speaker
a smaller church within this big church community, but it's really so separate, you know, um on the east side of the island and ah with the family that we all love and know.
01:07:05
Speaker
And um it just is such, it was such a different experience, even though it's still part of the same church. It's this pastor is just like the people's pastor. I love him so much. And I think just realizing I don't have to feel pressured to like,
01:07:22
Speaker
serve every single weekend or day. Like, I don't have to feel um like I'm under a spotlight and going everything I do or say is going to be scrutinized. um It allowed me to like, do some things I actually wanted to do, like, try dating.
01:07:38
Speaker
And um that wasn't a sinful thing. Like, like that picture had been painted for me for so long. And, um and then actually left Hawaii too, because of my husband being in the military, which is not something I really wanted to do. I love Hawaii, but it also allowed me to like grow in relationship with other people and, and even more so like kind of develop an understanding of what I want my future to look like.
01:08:06
Speaker
um regarding church, which is still very undeveloped and will continue developing as i raise a family and stuff. ah We raise a family and I'm sure things will shift. But right now I'm like, and don't have to be a part of a church right now if I don't find one that i want to be a part of. um I think community is really important, that like-minded community.
01:08:29
Speaker
And that might look different in different groups that I have around me. um So that's kind of like, I don't even know what your initial question was. I'm so sorry. but No, no. I think oh yeah that's you start dating outside the circle basically. And yeah I think initially, i don't think I was in Hawaii at the time. I think I'd already left. Yes.
01:08:49
Speaker
And, but from what I understand, there was some stigma around it. Yeah. For sure. People yeah very curious about it. And yeah like, oh, Shani's with a military dude now.
01:09:02
Speaker
he Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, and which is unfortunate because I've met Izzy now. He's awesome. Love him. He's met my family, and they all love him. They all think he's great.
01:09:15
Speaker
Yeah. you know and yeah it's just It's interesting how we all needed a lot of people... needed to to to leave the nest and to just to to figure out really it themselves to some extent right i mean um you know obviously my journey was a bit different than than others but it was really a discovery of who i was and who i was in
01:09:50
Speaker
relationship to god or who you know i god being the center obviously but you know like um yeah i i think that was something that everyone needed to do and and i think i'm gonna try and get people who are who are still around and still in that circle um but it makes me wonder how they are still how they can still stay in it and feel like they're growing and that sounds good I said something kind of condescending in the Malia episode too, but like how they can stay, stay growing in the yeah same place.
01:10:26
Speaker
I don't know. I'm, I'm curious about that. Yeah. But I, and maybe they can, but I couldn't, and I guess. I don't know. Yeah. I will say on that note, the husband and wife we sat down with the husband was like,
01:10:41
Speaker
I don't remember him like opposing his wife's perspective or advice, but he did say like, he likes being a part of the change that he wants to see. And I, I respect that too, because ah yeah, notify noticing that, that there is change that needs to happen and then sticking around, roughing, roughing it out. Maybe it's roughing it out for him um that he's going to like put in effort at some, in some way, shape or form. Yeah.
01:11:08
Speaker
to make things better for people that are still there. um that's, that's like something I hope for everyone. Cause we have so many people, so many people I still love that are in that church. And, um, I want the best for them and I want the best for the church. Like it's something that has been foundational in my life. Like not even just my faith, but like friendships that will never, I can never see being without were developed there.
01:11:34
Speaker
So it's like, how can, how can I regret that? You know? Um, and yeah so anyways i hope the best for that community and place but yeah yeah yeah i i think the same thing like i and i we we spoke about this when you guys came to town i and i'll i guess i'll say this you know again i think of great christians um i think of people like you and and like malia and i always think you guys are just amazing
Realization of a New Spiritual Path
01:12:06
Speaker
and you guys yeah you did not need um any incentive to follow christ and to to lead ministries and to do good things for our church i did i needed
01:12:26
Speaker
notoriety I needed to be in front of people. i needed a paycheck. I wouldn't go. i would i didn't intern because I didn't i wanted more money. i you know i needed those things.
01:12:37
Speaker
and um And ultimately, i feel like part of me was i could not be good Christian in that church because I was just... I i i didn't have it in me. I just wasn't really...
01:12:54
Speaker
yeah I wasn't really... ah and that was a that's a me problem. you know and and But there... And I believe that the...
01:13:05
Speaker
you know catholicism is true and that's the only reason i'm in it but i also believe that i needed that truth more than everyone else they they know i like everyone else was probably really good and so i mean just to humble myself a little bit i i think um i i am catholic because i'm worse than everyone else and that that everyone else is really good and they can stay evangelical and god will meet them where they're at and interesting perspective yeah yeah you know that's that's where i'm kind of at with it i have um two thoughts two short thoughts on that i think number one and the church that we were part of um had a lot of resources and used those resources where they saw value and i think
01:13:56
Speaker
For me, yes, I did a lot of stuff for free and without needing things. But i I enjoyed being given opportunities that would initially you know put me in front of people.
01:14:08
Speaker
um I think I didn't. Yeah. Anyways, when I started seeing friends doing the same exact things that I was doing for free. getting paid for it, whether it's through scholarships or school, or like, I am struggling here. I've been struggling financially. Like maybe sometimes it's my own fault. Sometimes it's like, feel like I'm doing this for, you know, this calling I thought I had on my life for ministry, but I'm not being invested into like, what's up with that?
01:14:34
Speaker
And I was very often met with like, it's just how it is sometimes, you know? yeah And, and so that, that's, that could be discouraging. First of all, they're setting us up to know that we can have those opportunities, but then depriving a lot of people of it because they're focusing so much on these people they want to um to put on in the spotlight or whatever the case is.
01:14:56
Speaker
ah So I will say that's not just a you thing. I mean, yes but, um and then also I, I've never, like, I don't think I've been close enough to you to, like, be like, wow, Keegan's so judgmental.
01:15:10
Speaker
um But I've heard you talk about yourself being judgmental. Yeah. And I just want to say, like, just in the recent couple years, um just catching up with you and Taya, whether it's on the phone real quick or, like, um in person a couple times, um you are...
01:15:28
Speaker
I don't know. You're just a very kind, accepting person. um You are the nicest Catholic person I've ever met because a lot of Catholic people are like, you're wrong about this. I don't know. It's so crazy to me because it's hard to have conversations with some Catholic people because um we're so, there's a lot of similarities in our faiths, but there's also a lot of like foundational differences and so I think people just get really passionate but you are someone that's made comfortable to go to mass like comfortable to talk about these things and I also just look up to you because you are a very smart person and I know you don't need that encouragement but I just appreciate you being kind and smart so I appreciate that and I yeah
01:16:09
Speaker
I don't know. But yeah, I mean, I still feel that, you know, I was, i i I could have been, I always felt like everyone was a little better than me. And everyone had, you know, and that was always, that was always something I wrestled with where it was like, you know, I didn't, I didn't want to read my Bible. I didn't want to pray and I felt bad for it. And it was sure you know, and that that always, yeah.
01:16:36
Speaker
But i always I always looked up to it. you you guys, like you, you and Malia, know, people who I've had on my podcast and I can talk about because they were on the podcast. No, but specifically, um but really, i mean, because I, I always just felt like, wow, you guys, you guys are just doing it. You don't, you, you don't need you, you love the Lord and I can see that in your life. And, um,
01:17:03
Speaker
Yeah. And obviously I want everyone to be Catholic, but i I think you're great. I think everyone's great. I think you guys are great and you're growing where you're at. And that's awesome. And I'm thankful you guys came to mass. I appreciate it. hope you guys enjoyed it.
01:17:16
Speaker
I did. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good time for sure. Yeah. um yeah Cool. Well, I don't want to hold you up too long. Do you have any, any concluding thoughts or questions or.
01:17:28
Speaker
Hmm. No, I just, and this was fine, actually. i'm I'm looking forward to listening to all the other people you'll have on. So thanks for doing this. Dude, we have a good one next week. If yeah if they if they pull through, we're going to have a good one. i don't yeah i don't You might not even know them, and we can talk about it afterwards. But it's gonna be really cool.
01:17:48
Speaker
I was really looking forward to yours. I think um I've got a list of people. I'll show it to you after this. Okay. um But you you are on the list ah of people.
01:17:59
Speaker
um of like the dream guest list. You were number four on the dream guest list. And Kamala was first just because him and I thought of the idea together. yeah um But yeah, you were number four the list.
01:18:16
Speaker
And then there's like 30 people on this list. so Oh my God. Yeah, okay, not 30. Also, I accidentally flashed it the camera. Someone might like pause it. Pause it and zoom in. No, yeah, but there's, yeah, so I definitely, yeah, I'm really thankful that you came on and ah because your story is awesome. And I've really appreciated our friendship, your friendship with Teo over the years. And yeah, cool.
01:18:40
Speaker
Alrighty, I'll close this bad boy out. Thanks so much. john No problem.