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#6 My Friend the Outcast - Nalu Kapu
42 Plays8 months ago
In this episode, Keegan and Nalu discuss burnout, doubt, and sketchy chicken from an unhoused person.
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Transcript
Introduction and Technical Issues
00:00:00
Keegan Drummond
Okay, perfect. um We had some technical difficulties. We're back online. we might We might be starting over just because of how the uploads go. ah Real quick, I guess, you know, and maybe this was like the best place to start off anyway.
00:00:15
Keegan Drummond
um
00:00:16
nalu
Cheers.
00:00:17
Keegan Drummond
We're talking about your
Growing Up in a Famous Family
00:00:18
Keegan Drummond
your background. So you... ah grow up in this pretty prominent family in Hawaii. um Your father is a pretty well-known um musician. ah He's playing worship music in this church we grew up in.
00:00:35
Keegan Drummond
um Goes off to a satellite campus to start um playing music on the worship team first, but then becomes the senior pastor of that satellite church, um leading it.
00:00:46
Keegan Drummond
ah So you... ah kind of like halfway into your childhood become a pastor's kid out of nowhere. um
00:00:55
nalu
Yeah.
00:00:56
Keegan Drummond
You're kind of touching on this, but what's what's um what's that transition like, I guess, um going from from like, I don't know, just like...
00:01:07
Keegan Drummond
not average but like and not average at all, but like really cool Hawaiian family to um like kind of a different thing altogether, being like celebrity, but like in a completely different fashion.
00:01:24
nalu
Um... Yeah. I mean, i I guess I didn't view it as like celebrity, just like mainly, yeah, I think I was just like kind of in my own world a little bit.
00:01:38
nalu
And then when he became the pastor of that church, um, I started to notice like a shift in like the way, like certain people were treating him and like, um, and then I felt kind of more of like a pressure.
00:01:56
nalu
to like be good, you know, whatever that means, you know, i like, uh, you know, and, and pretty much like, you know, I was pursuing God and
00:02:14
nalu
that kind of like takes me in the ass and was like, Oh, well now you gotta to dig deeper and like figure it out, you know? And, like pretty much for myself and like, i don't know. I've just felt the pressure to be like even more educated on the word and like be deeper and like have a deeper relationship for myself. And then, I mean, I think that's like what the transition mainly did.
00:02:45
nalu
Um, and it was pretty subtle in the beginning and I think I felt it more as the years went on. Um, but yeah.
Cultural Identity and Belonging
00:02:55
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, and I mean, I don't i don't and i don't know if this is like kind of a weird thing to say, but like you aesthetically are are a very different person from the rest of your family.
00:03:05
Keegan Drummond
like Even when we're growing, and i don't know if that's too far to say, but like when we're growing up, you're sort of like this kind of grungy guy that likes...
00:03:06
nalu
yes
00:03:10
nalu
No.
00:03:17
Keegan Drummond
ah I feel like you were really into like punk music, like actual punk music and like not pop punk. I was really into bubblegum pop punk music.
00:03:27
Keegan Drummond
You were into like, like hardcore music.
00:03:28
nalu
and
00:03:30
Keegan Drummond
um And like, meanwhile, you're in, like a very prominent Hawaiian family, Hawaiian music. Like, I don't know, like just even aesthetically, it was it was different.
00:03:43
Keegan Drummond
is I mean, i don't know if that's like a weird thing to say or if you kind of see that or if you identified still as like super moke.
00:03:47
nalu
so
00:03:53
Keegan Drummond
I don't know. Like...
00:03:56
nalu
I mean, yeah I mean, I, I, my moke comes out sometimes. I mean, I can't really help it no matter what I look like, but, uh,
00:04:05
Keegan Drummond
faxed.
00:04:10
nalu
Yeah, i I mean, I agree with that. Like, I think that kind helped shape who I am, honestly, like the way that I looked. I mean, I looked a lot different. I mean, I wasn't your typical Hawaiian. I was kind of like the scrawny, light-skinned one.
00:04:25
nalu
And yeah, i mean i I mean, I kind of felt like I felt like I was always trying to like, you if this is true or not, like I still felt like I had to live up to a certain standard, which I just couldn't.
00:04:41
nalu
um Because, one, my values lied elsewhere and, like, my interests lied elsewhere. um And, two, like, yeah, just look I just looked different. and i I found, i guess, solitude in people that were also different, which ended up being, like, the metalheads and, like, the punks.
00:05:07
nalu
skaters you know and the artists you know like the weird the weird like outcast crew of like middle school and high school like I felt like I belonged there than like a football team or you know um but yeah I mean yeah I did it did uh I feel like it did affect me and yeah and I agree with that for sure
00:05:39
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. and i'd like Maybe that's like super problematic for me to say like you didn't come off as the most moke action person I ever met.
00:05:48
nalu
Yeah.
00:05:49
Keegan Drummond
But like but like honestly, like I feel like we used to talk about whatever, punk music or guitars or skating or whatever.
00:05:49
nalu
For
00:05:56
nalu
me
00:05:58
Keegan Drummond
And and I don't know.
00:05:59
nalu
sure.
00:06:00
Keegan Drummond
like I wouldn't expect to necessarily have that conversation with like my Polynesian friends on the football team or whatever, you know?
00:06:07
nalu
Yeah.
00:06:07
Keegan Drummond
Like, it was just, like, you you were, like, certainly, like, a different.
00:06:08
nalu
Yeah.
Traditional Ministry Challenges
00:06:11
Keegan Drummond
um And, you know, I was always very curious about that because I think um there was just a certain type... Because I actually played a couple of times, I think, and it was maybe with you at your dad's church. And I feel that there's maybe a certain culture that that you just kind of came out naturally, emanated from...
00:06:33
Keegan Drummond
just like doing ministry with him and the rest of your family that, I mean, there was like, ah i mean, maybe, i don't know if there's like a disconnect or if that's fair to say really, or if it's just like, you were just like kind of like a different person altogether and whatever.
00:06:48
Keegan Drummond
Um,
00:06:51
nalu
Yeah, I mean, i I, uh,
00:06:57
nalu
yeah, i kind of like accepted that, you know, I was, at the time I, I, I didn't think it was like, you know, i didn't think it was like a good thing at the time. I was like, yeah, I'm just a fucking weirdo. I'm just a little bit, you know, I'm a little different. and I look different. I act different.
00:07:16
nalu
I'm into different things a little bit, but I kind of just accepted that. And, um Yeah, and that that did that did bleed into like a lot of the things that I did too.
00:07:28
nalu
um The way that I thought about like the Bible and like ministry sometimes. you know like you know Pretty much that ah like that way of thinking kind of helped me think for myself eventually. i mean, not not in the beginning for a while, honestly, but Um, yeah, I don't know. It really did affect the way that I, um, approached certain things.
00:08:02
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, in what way? I mean, that's kind of interesting, like this sort of like outcast kind of personality that, or not personality, but like this, I mean, just then maybe sort of the the reality of you being kind of an outcast in the way that maybe you presented yourself or whatever.
00:08:21
Keegan Drummond
um Like what, how did that manifest in the way that you interacted with the Bible or with church or whatever?
00:08:31
nalu
Um, yeah, like, so i think it was just mainly like, it was in the forefront of my mind a lot. Um, until like, I resonated a lot with like, um, people that were quote unquote, like unacceptable, like at the church or ah don't know, like i whenever Whenever there was somebody like on their own and like there's a group you know in a social setting, like if anybody was alone, um especially at a church, like I would go up to them. I'll try to go up to them and like have a conversation. Or would like the least liked person or something. I would try like be friends with them. Or you know when it came to like you know the Bible, i i always wanted to understand...
00:09:31
nalu
like what it really meant, you know? um and I think that's, well, there's a couple of reasons for that. And I think and one of the reasons
Connecting with Marginalized Groups
00:09:39
nalu
was, um just because I felt like I was unheard lot of the times.
00:09:47
nalu
Um, so like, I, I, I feel like I was trying to understand the things around me for what it was, you know, rather than just taking it for face value.
00:10:01
nalu
And um I don't know, that that seems to be like a ah common pattern throughout my my journey, I guess.
00:10:12
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, i'm I'm really interested in... So, I mean, like, you're you're telling me that, you know, you're feeling kind of outcast, so, you know, that creates this inner compulsion to go out and reach outcasts in, you know, the youth group or the church or whatever.
00:10:31
Keegan Drummond
um And that seems, I mean, like I don't know, like, I know you're saying that, like, you you had a... and earlier you were saying um you had like a difficult time kind of reconciling scripture and that sort of thing. But I mean, that seems to coincide pretty well with scripture. Don't you think? I mean, like, like this, this, this inner desire to see um people who are on the margins um welcomed in and become um
00:11:04
Keegan Drummond
like one with the community.
00:11:06
nalu
for sure yeah yeah and I think I feel like the more that I did that the more I like began to develop like a ah like a don't know like a lens in the church of like, just pretty much like analyzing the church. Like the more I did that, the more I'm realizing like, yeah, I mean, this is what were supposed to be doing. So why aren't we doing it? You know what I mean?
00:11:34
Keegan Drummond
Yeah,
00:11:35
nalu
And, um, yeah, i mean, that was just like, kind of like the foundation of like, uh, to a point it was actually, i mean,
00:11:48
nalu
it was like to a fault at some points in my life where I would like enter a church and I'll come in with like this lens of like, we're not doing anything right. You know, you're out of all these lights and all these like fog machines and like, you know, production, like, why are we doing any of this?
00:11:57
Keegan Drummond
yeah. yeah
00:12:05
nalu
Like, I don't know, but yeah.
00:12:09
Keegan Drummond
that That has been one of the the recurring questions that have come up. you know ah you know As you can imagine, you know I'm talking to all these people that we did ministry with 10 to 15 years ago.
00:12:17
nalu
Yeah.
00:12:22
Keegan Drummond
And I think one of the recurring things um that have come up that we've all been sort of challenged by was who was that
Questioning Ministry Purpose
00:12:31
Keegan Drummond
for? You know, um you know, we, we would put all this effort into programs and to, yeah, lights.
00:12:39
Keegan Drummond
I think you even did lighting at one point, right? Or if I'm not mistaken, or like,
00:12:45
nalu
Yeah, well, I started off doing lights and then I ended up... um Well, then PowerPoint, and then I ended up just doing sound. So I ended up learning how to run the soundboard and setting all that up.
00:12:58
nalu
And yeah, did that for a while.
00:13:00
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. So, I mean, you touched everything on the production level. And I mean, i think I, and, you I, I, I've probably, I did all three of those things or I didn't do lights. I didn't necessarily have the visual sort of gifting.
00:13:13
Keegan Drummond
I don't think I didn't know what looked good.
00:13:13
nalu
hey
00:13:15
Keegan Drummond
Um, but, um, Yeah, there's this kind of recurring question that we're all having of like, what was that for? Because we were putting so much effort into it and so much time into it.
00:13:26
nalu
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:13:28
Keegan Drummond
And it felt like it mattered so much in the moment. I felt like there were times where people almost got into fights over, you know, how a certain sound thing should be done you know, um or lights or whatever.
00:13:32
nalu
Mm-hmm.
00:13:36
nalu
Yeah.
00:13:39
nalu
Dude, uh...
00:13:44
Keegan Drummond
And, or why aren't these slides turned in already?
00:13:44
nalu
Mm-hmm.
00:13:47
Keegan Drummond
And, uh,
00:13:47
nalu
Yeah.
00:13:48
Keegan Drummond
Like, yeah, I don't know. That seems to be this thing, though, that we're all still having to reconcile was like, why were we doing that?
00:13:55
nalu
Mm-hmm.
00:13:58
Keegan Drummond
Because in the moment, you know, it's like you're putting all this effort in and the things that touched you and touched me weren't those things.
00:14:08
Keegan Drummond
They were, you know, people like you ah going up to, you know, kids on the margins that needed someone to talk to is, you know, people like your sister who I, we said earlier in the first recording, like who, you know, invited me to her grad party. It's like, who am I? You know, that's crazy.
00:14:27
Keegan Drummond
ah but like that means so much like that's some sort of, there's some sort of evangelical merits to that act more than there is to like,
00:14:41
Keegan Drummond
this sweet ass mix i did on this kick drum right now even though it was like really good like i killed this mix but like this the best kick drum that's ever been mixed but like what was i doing that for you know um man i made that i made my voice sound good though um like yeah i know facts um
00:14:44
nalu
Right, right.
00:14:49
nalu
Yeah.
00:14:55
nalu
Yeah.
00:14:59
nalu
Yeah.
00:15:04
nalu
funny
00:15:07
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I don't know. Well, but I'm really interested. I mean, you know, obviously, like, I have a background in Bible. So I'm really interested in like, that sort of approach you had to to the Bible, you're kind of talking about um earlier, um about how, um and this might have been more so in the first recording that we did, but like, the, the,
00:15:32
Keegan Drummond
this disconnect that you're having internally, like you're seeing some sort of like cognitive dissonance as you read the Bible and, um, just not getting answers.
00:15:43
Keegan Drummond
Um, and like, and you were talking about how that kind of related to your experience, just being on the outside and trying to find answers and not finding them in the Bible. Like, um,
00:15:56
Keegan Drummond
I guess that was always problematic for me too. Like, what are we doing with this thing? Like how, what is this like reading about, you know, 50 genealogies supposed to be doing for me right now?
00:16:08
Keegan Drummond
I know I'm supposed to read it. Otherwise I'll feel really bad about myself later, but um what are we doing with that?
00:16:11
nalu
Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:15
Keegan Drummond
And I don't know if you had that experience as well um with scripture, but that was always kind of problematic for me.
00:16:25
nalu
Yeah. um
00:16:29
nalu
Yeah, I don't know. I feel i feel like... I mean, therere there was that point where I was questioning a lot of things that didn't make sense. And then when I started to receive those answers of like, that like ask God when you die, pretty much.
00:16:45
nalu
um
Faith and Logic Dilemma
00:16:46
nalu
When I started receiving...
00:16:46
Keegan Drummond
That's the craziest answer, by the way, that I've ever heard.
00:16:47
nalu
Dude.
00:16:49
Keegan Drummond
know
00:16:51
nalu
Yeah, like...
00:16:51
Keegan Drummond
I'm sure that came from some loving people, but that that answer is bonkers.
00:16:54
nalu
yeah totally. Yeah.
00:16:57
nalu
You know, i yeah, they were doing their best. And, yeah, i just it just messed me up for a while. and Yeah, and... um But, yeah, after hearing that so often, i eventually just gave up and, like, took everything for what it said.
00:17:16
nalu
um i mean, yeah, I would, like, look at the Hebrew word for this or the Greek word for that, you know, and, like... really try to understand it And then like, but like pretty much what it said, I was like, yup, that is a hundred percent true.
00:17:33
nalu
No matter what, like, I'm not going to like question if it's true or not anymore. You know, like, like I can figure out the answers if I need to, but like the things that i don't understand, I'm just going to believe it, you know?
00:17:48
nalu
Um, so,
00:17:49
Keegan Drummond
What were some of those internal beliefs? I'm curious, like, you're because you're having doubts, but eventually you're just like, this is almost like the mental exhaustion from like trying to figure this out through reading this book is too much because no one's explained to me how this works.
00:18:04
nalu
the
00:18:08
Keegan Drummond
Like, what are some beliefs that like internal beliefs that you begin to just incorporate into your life?
00:18:16
nalu
um Like things that I could understand I just believed them.
00:18:22
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I guess so.
00:18:23
nalu
Yeah. Yeah. Like, like pretty much all the miracles. Like i was like, how, like, how the fuck does this, like, how do you like literally change water into wine? Like how did Jesus literally walk on the water? Like, like these things like, like blew my mind and I didn't, it was hard for me to like wrap my mind around them.
00:18:47
nalu
And, uh, I just believed him. I was like, okay, well he's literally that powerful. Like he can, yeah, he, he can walk on water and change water into booze, you know, it's like, that's, that's the power that he had. And that's like something I just got to believe in and for my own life. Um, other things like, like in the old Testament what were, were also in that category for me, I think like, um,
00:19:19
nalu
like Genesis, like the creation story, like that whole thing, like how do you create all this in seven days when like there's carbon dating, like dating it way further back than what this book is saying it, you know?
00:19:34
nalu
Yeah. yeah And like, yeah, just a lot of like wild things that just seem like, some artists thought of himself, you know?
00:19:47
nalu
And, uh, those are the things that like, I kind of just like took for what it was and like, yeah, that, that happened. I don't understand it. I don't get why, but I'm going to use that for like my faith. So like, like after like not asking any more questions about things I didn't understand, um that's when I use those things to like fuel the faith that I had.
00:20:12
nalu
Um, so I just believed it. So I just believe that, you know, if the, you know, if, ah if my heart is right and I've done the correct steps and I have the right intention or whatever, I don't know.
00:20:27
nalu
Um, but if I've, if I've done these things, um, if, if it says it in the Bible that I can receive these things, then I believe that I will.
00:20:39
nalu
You know, like if those things are promised to me, if i do, if I believe in it and i do these things, then yeah, I believe in that.
00:20:50
Keegan Drummond
What are some of those things?
00:20:50
nalu
And...
00:20:51
Keegan Drummond
I'm curious, like like the miraculous salvation, like what what are some of these things that you feel like now are being promised to you through the um these sorts of kind of like what you what you becomes kind of like outlandish sort of stories in the scripture, I guess?
00:21:09
nalu
Well, I think for me at the time, um i think like things like hardships, things that like against logic that I shouldn't be able to um succeed in the things that I would like to.
00:21:27
nalu
um Believing in those things, I feel like I had the faith to to achieve the things that I wanted to achieve or like healing for certain things.
00:21:42
nalu
um Yeah, a lot of like, like, like miracles and like, pretty much anything that like defied logic to me, or like, ah lot, there's a there's a few times where, for example, um I used to preach at my old high school.
00:22:04
nalu
And um for like the high school kids during lunch, the lunch break, would go in and I usually would like bring in food for all of them to like lure them into Jesus Christ. and I'm just kidding. But, um, just make it appealing to them to like come and like learn about the Bible and all that. And, um, uh, pretty, and there was like one point where I was like strapped for cash and like, i didn't know what I was going to do. And like, these kids are like,
00:22:38
nalu
they pretty much come and they, they stay for food and a lot of them get a lot out of it. But was like, man, I'm going to come in empty handed. Um, so I, think I like prayed or something.
00:22:52
nalu
And then I, like, I had this, like, um, I don't know. I had like this feeling to like look in this book that i hadn't read in a while. And then like in there was like this envelope from my grant, my grandma, I call her Tootsie.
00:23:09
nalu
And it was like 50 bucks for I don't really know what it was, why i had it. And um yeah, I mean, it was like stuff like that where I kind of you like those were the things that I like kind it used it for. i guess I don't I'm not too sure. Does that like answer your question at all?
00:23:32
Keegan Drummond
Yes. So, well, yeah, I'm like, I'm kind of curious even like about that instance. So is it in your mind when something like that happens, Are you now, I guess, in in the present, are you looking back on that and you're like, oh, that was the miraculous?
00:23:49
Keegan Drummond
Or is it, I'm sorry, are you are you saying that like now when you think about those types of moments, it's that you're ah abscri or um ascribing the miraculous moments?
00:24:03
Keegan Drummond
to something like that, to opening a random book on your bookshelf and finding a $50 bill. It's just like, oh, that was like happenstance that I, in my youth, would ascribe to the miraculous.
00:24:21
nalu
Um, yeah, like, yeah, like in my youth, I would probably say that that was miraculous, you know, like, um today I'm kind of like in a different boat, but, um, yeah, at the time I was like, yeah.
00:24:38
nalu
And even younger, I would say like, yeah, that was, that was like something miraculous to me. and and I would like attribute that to like the faith that I had in like, just like believing in,
00:24:52
nalu
that kind of like, um, I don't know, like that kind of like, uh, love from, ah from God, you know, like providing, um, yeah.
00:25:10
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, i I'm sure like everyone kind of wants to know like where you are and where your mindset is.
00:25:10
nalu
Uh, yeah. Sure.
00:25:16
Keegan Drummond
But real quick, ah I want to talk about that high school thing. So you're and i don't know, like ah you're kind of saying it nonchalant, but nonchalant.
00:25:20
nalu
yeah
00:25:25
Keegan Drummond
But that's a bizarre thing, right? Like you're what, 16, 17 years old and you're trying to pay out of pocket to like give pizza to high schoolers and then preach the gospel to them.
00:25:27
nalu
yeah
00:25:38
nalu
Yeah, well, I was yeah i was more like 18 at the time.
00:25:38
Keegan Drummond
Like that's
00:25:41
nalu
I graduated and I'm coming back to my old high school.
00:25:44
Keegan Drummond
Oh, you would go back. Okay.
00:25:45
nalu
yeah But yeah, I was paying out of pocket to give these kids food and preach the gospel. And then, yeah and then I didn't have any money and then I prayed and I had money.
00:25:57
nalu
if
00:25:58
Keegan Drummond
And so like, were you just, was it just like, was it, were you working for someone or was this just like, Oh, I'm doing ministry.
00:26:06
nalu
Oh, yeah. I was like a part of this like ah organization that like they would do that. They would like go to different high schools.
00:26:15
Keegan Drummond
Okay. Okay.
00:26:15
nalu
Yeah.
00:26:16
Keegan Drummond
I actually, so my brother, he brings that up on his podcast that we did that same organization that I think, um, and they, um, yeah.
00:26:16
nalu
Yeah.
00:26:23
nalu
Okay.
00:26:26
Keegan Drummond
so okay. So you were like working with them, but you're like having to fundraise for your own type of stuff, um, in that organization or,
00:26:33
nalu
Yeah. hmm.
00:26:35
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, actually. And you know, it was kind of funny. I'm remembering this now. I don't know if you remember, there was a girl in that group and she transferred, I think she was a military girl and she transferred from that high school to my high school. And I was still in high school at the time.
00:26:54
Keegan Drummond
And you reached out to me personally and you were like, Hey, so-and-so's coming to your high school. um, Like if you wouldn't mind just like reach out to her. This is her. I already like give her your information, whatever.
00:27:08
Keegan Drummond
And, um I don't know if you remember that at all, but, um,
00:27:15
nalu
Yeah, kinda.
00:27:15
Keegan Drummond
Maybe.
00:27:16
nalu
Kinda, yeah.
00:27:16
Keegan Drummond
i think you even, like, interacted with her for, like, maybe a week. And it was, like, she was the military.
00:27:19
nalu
For
00:27:21
Keegan Drummond
So, i mean, she's just, like, super transient and, like, was in one high school at one point and then just gets transferred to mine in the next.
00:27:25
nalu
sure.
00:27:28
nalu
Yeah.
00:27:31
Keegan Drummond
um But, like, even she, you know, it's, like, she's, um you know, like, a white military girl going to ah not, like,
00:27:43
Keegan Drummond
really like military high school. i mean, there's like military high schools almost on the island, which is like one I went to, Moalu High School, Radford High School, you know, Lilihua, whatever. um
00:27:54
nalu
is
00:27:55
Keegan Drummond
I'm breaking my rules about proper nouns, but these are like, that's like a common thing, you know, it's like public high schools.
00:27:59
nalu
Right, right.
00:28:00
Keegan Drummond
Um, you know, and like your high school wasn't necessarily one of those schools. So I feel like, I mean, like you're already sort of speaking to this, but like that was the kind of person you were in ministry that you would go like the extra mile, um, for those folks that were on the
Supporting Peers and Empathy
00:28:16
Keegan Drummond
margins. And I think that girl, like, I don't think I ever like saw her in person, but I, I would like Facebook messenger every once in a while, that kind of thing.
00:28:24
Keegan Drummond
Um, just because I think she was just like going through it clearly.
00:28:28
nalu
Sure.
00:28:29
Keegan Drummond
Um, and which is probably why you felt compelled to, to reach out to her and to connect us, whatever. But I don't know, like that was the way you did ministry. I mean, you were, um, you know, someone who had,
00:28:44
Keegan Drummond
um you know, what might be called, I guess that that the 50 cent word for it was like this preferential option for the poor.
00:28:55
Keegan Drummond
Like you had this, like, like you saw that there was there were people, they were good. They were in, they were like part of the community, whatever. They're fine, they're covered. But you were like one of those people to always...
00:29:07
Keegan Drummond
go out to those people on the margins to maybe not poor, like economically, but poor in spirit, like a different type of poverty, like a poverty of like, like, social status, a poverty of like ah feeling like poor in one spirit, like completely
00:29:24
nalu
Mm-hmm.
00:29:25
Keegan Drummond
um destitute in just like, I don't know, like just feeling like broken, maybe not just broke. um I feel like that's just the way that you interacted with people
00:29:36
nalu
Mm-hmm.
00:29:43
Keegan Drummond
And don't know, I feel that that's, that was unique. That wasn't necessarily something that was maybe valued. um I don't know, maybe that that's not your experience.
00:29:52
nalu
Mm-hmm.
00:29:54
Keegan Drummond
Maybe you you saw that happening all the time.
00:29:59
nalu
Um, yeah, I mean, I think looking back, that's like, I mean, seeing myself today and like looking back at it, um, from this point of view, like it's definitely like a part of who I am. Like I realized that and like just anybody that's, that's hurting or like even alone or,
00:30:27
nalu
just needs, like, in need, you know, like, I always feel, like, compelled to, like, at the very least, listen to them, you know, like, sit down with them, you know, and, yeah, I mean, even the people on the streets, like, I, you know, I did feel for them, and loved them. I actually hung out, funny story, I don't know if this is, like,
00:30:56
nalu
it relates, I guess, a little bit, but, um, back in, like, 2015 or 14, I would, like, close out my coffee shop around, like, 10, 10.30, and I would, like, ride my moped back home, and used to live, like, you know, like, near Aala, like, Chinatown, like, yeah, it's pretty rough out there, and then there's, like, a shit ton homeless, and, like,
00:31:20
nalu
I would like take all of the pastries that were that we were going to throw away and I would like bring it over to like this sidewalk of like 10, 15 homeless people and would drop it.
00:31:33
nalu
After a while, i used I would just like, they like invited me to like sit down with them and like have a beer. And I was like over there, was just over there just like drinking a 40 with like a couple of homeless guys, man, it was cool.
00:31:49
nalu
But then, after a while, like, it was really interesting to me, like, there was one time where was, like, Thanksgiving or something, I was passing by, I was going somewhere, but I was passing by that that's street, and i saw one of the guys that I knew, and I waved at him, he waved back, but he was calling me, so I turned around my moped, and i I stopped, and I parked, and I'm like, what's up?
00:32:15
nalu
And then he was, like, grilling on this, like makeshift grill, bro, like, He's like, yeah, I'm making chicken for Thanksgiving. And I'm like, what the fuck? He's like, yeah, yeah, I got you. And so puts it in this like grocery bag, like two like thighs like chicken thighs barbecued.
00:32:33
nalu
And like he hands me a 40. And he's like, happy Thanksgiving. And I'm like, word. ah did not get sick, which is a good thing. um
00:32:40
Keegan Drummond
yeah
00:32:41
nalu
yeah
00:32:44
nalu
But um dude, I know.
00:32:45
Keegan Drummond
That's Providence.
00:32:47
nalu
I was kind of lucky. But I was hungry too, so i was like, sick, free food.
00:32:54
nalu
But then um like a month later, I was still kicking it with them. And then I parked my moped. And then I parked it a little bit um a ways away from where they were staying, like just probably like 30 feet, 30 yards or so. And um these kids like hopped the fence and was like checking out my moped.
00:33:15
nalu
And then one of the guys like stood up from his camp and like bust out his switchblade and started like, the fuck are you guys doing? And then yeah he literally almost like cut up a bunch of kids. And I was like, bro, you just fucking settled down.
00:33:33
nalu
They booked it, but it's like that. I don't know. It was like that recipi so reciprocating like um care for one another. Like we got each other's back. Like I, you know, like I come,
00:33:44
nalu
I come and I feed you guys and like I hang out with you guys and like you, you know, whenever I'm in need, they like got my back and it was like kind of a beautiful thing. And, and I never expected that, but I mean, you know, it was like, it really opened my eyes. Like you never know when you need something, someone might come, come around. i don't know.
00:34:08
Keegan Drummond
Man, that's ministry in Aala Park right there, man. I was always told, like, don't go there as a kid.
00:34:11
nalu
yeah
00:34:14
Keegan Drummond
I'm like, and here you are like, drinking 40s, eating undercooked chicken.
00:34:18
nalu
well
00:34:22
Keegan Drummond
and
00:34:22
nalu
Straight up.
00:34:25
Keegan Drummond
like and they're holding it that's mutual aid right there people talk about like ah mutual aid and whatever and it always comes off pretty like condescending very patronizing like that's mutual aid right there being openness to the ah openness to the other you know to like man you scratch my back and you scratch people up with a switchblade like that's crazy that's awesome that's great um
00:34:29
nalu
Yeah.
00:34:37
nalu
For sure.
00:34:47
nalu
Straight up. My man.
00:34:52
Keegan Drummond
yeah actually i think i remember you me and another guy and we we like there were there were tons of um um tons of folks who were were homeless in in um in cali and we'd always pass by them whatever sand island and um i remember like you two like you were just super willing to like we were going to mcdonald's i think and you're like oh you you guys want anything
00:35:10
nalu
Hmm.
00:35:22
Keegan Drummond
and i mean i don't know like i that i don't know that was just like not in me and i was probably more able like you guys were probably adults at that time and you're on your own but like you know i'm like chilling like i probably could have but like it wasn't in me to be like oh do you guys want a mcchicken or whatever a big mac or Like, um, I think they even said, nah, we're good.
00:35:45
nalu
Oh,
00:35:48
Keegan Drummond
We've got lobster or something like that.
00:35:50
nalu
shit.
00:35:50
Keegan Drummond
ah Like, um just, just take the McChicken, man.
00:35:50
nalu
Hmm. Hmm. oh
00:35:54
Keegan Drummond
And I think you ended up like, ah like, um, you and this other guy ended up getting McChicken's forum, which was pretty cool still. Um, and I was like, I don't know, like, I'm just like unwilling.
00:36:04
Keegan Drummond
And I always really admired that, uh, uh, about you and that other guy that just like, and he probably got it from you, honestly, like, um, that willingness to just kind of like give the shirt off your back for someone. And I don't know if there's a lot of people that would have done that, um, or were,
00:36:25
Keegan Drummond
You know, because like the ministry we grew up in, where we're doing ministry, I talked about this with Shani a little bit, but there's like, it i felt like there was a disconnect. Like we were we were doing ministries in the in this extremely poor area of the island.
00:36:40
Keegan Drummond
And I don't necessarily know if like if we catered to them. And yeah. um and even it And it's interesting because the the satellite campus that your your father ends up becoming the pastor at is probably one of the more wealthy parts of the island.
Authenticity vs. Performance in Ministry
00:36:54
Keegan Drummond
But still, even there, you're drawn to um the poor in whatever poverty that looks like.
00:37:04
Keegan Drummond
I don't Did you feel like a disconnect there? Did you feel frustrated with ah the disconnect there? Or um was that just something innate in you to be... I don't know, like just an empathetic, kind person.
00:37:19
nalu
ah and Did I feel a disconnect um where I was? Like, okay. Yeah.
00:37:26
Keegan Drummond
I guess just generally, I mean, like where, where we did ministry together, ah where we, the, the sort of, the sort of like vibe in Christianity in Hawaii generally, because I feel like it was all very similar in that, like, there was this like catering to middle-class, upper middle-class, uh,
00:37:26
nalu
okay
00:37:31
nalu
you
00:37:43
nalu
yeah
00:37:50
Keegan Drummond
um folks and there were people that were doing that work but that was almost like a separate thing
00:37:59
nalu
e yeah yeah I mean I did I did feel like there was a disconnect I mean i mean I did fall into like the you know there was a point where I did fall into like you know feeding the homeless you know like take a selfie, like, look what I'm doing, you know, like, I'm out here, but, like, I think there was, like, yeah, there was there was a certain point where I was, like, I don't know, like, are we even, like, doing anything about, you know, like, like, as a whole, like, do we,
00:38:44
nalu
I don't know, do we cater to their needs or are we just doing this for like, for like the, what they call a clout now?
00:38:56
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:38:57
nalu
You know? And ah yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, but yeah, definitely in the beginning I was like, let me bring my camera so I can make sure I document this moment of, you know, the church reaching out to the homeless and,
00:39:15
nalu
make a really dramatic video about it too. You know?
00:39:21
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, but I mean, even, I mean, I think you were, like, even then it grew into being something incredibly authentic. Like, um you know, I don't know.
00:39:27
nalu
Yeah, I tried.
00:39:30
Keegan Drummond
It's like um you eating, like, chicken that you got from a homeless guy is, like, the modern-day equivalent of St. Francis going out and kissing the leper.
00:39:41
Keegan Drummond
You know, it's like, it's one thing to, like, do... sort of charity work to like give to folks to to like hand out a meal whatever but it's another to like encounter that person at as um and to not other them you know to to encounter them for who they are and to recognize their humanity um like i don't know that it seems that like even if you went into it like
00:40:00
nalu
Mm-hmm.
00:40:10
Keegan Drummond
like and i don't i don't even even know if you were looking for clout you were just like a creative dude um but like it grew into something that's incredibly authentic and incredibly humanizing for for uh that person but also for you like you become more of a human through this interaction with this this person you know um Yeah, so I guess I'm, I mean, like, I guess it seems like you are in a different place, though, than you were then.
00:40:43
Keegan Drummond
um
00:40:43
nalu
Yeah.
00:40:44
Keegan Drummond
Maybe carrying some of the same,
00:40:45
nalu
ah
00:40:48
Keegan Drummond
we lost him again. He'll come right back on, though. We're going to keep this running. um He's going to come right back on. I know it. I know it. Believe. Believe.
00:41:05
Keegan Drummond
some bonus content for you guys. I know what you're thinking. Why did he wear the hat? And it's because of the, the giant pimple on my forehead. Correct. Correct. Yes. I had a pimple patch on all day and I was like, is it gonna, is it gonna work?
00:41:22
Keegan Drummond
And, um, it, it like, just like when I took it off, it like, just like yanked out all the like pus and blood all at once.
00:41:33
Keegan Drummond
there he is i just left it running so i'll just cut it all up in in post um okay i think we were you were saying um okay no i was asking you so um that was crazy i don't know i don't know if we're like ready to jump into this just off of you your phone dying but um
00:41:37
nalu
Okay.
00:41:55
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, so it seems like you're in a different place um with with religion, with faith, with Jesus, whatever, than you
Detachment from Religious Practices
00:42:03
Keegan Drummond
were then. like um where where How would you describe like where you're at right now or and maybe what led up to that?
00:42:15
nalu
Um, so where I'm at now is kind of like,
00:42:21
nalu
I'm not like very involved at all. Like I don't, like religion in general, like I'm not very involved in anything.
00:42:32
nalu
don't pray. I don't, I don't read the Bible. Like, I mean, I just don't do anything anymore. but live my life and like everything I do is like very logic based like evidence based you know um but what that means is that I can't rule out really the existence of God so I mean i do believe that there is something
00:43:06
nalu
um something like God out there. You know, I feel like there is something like that. um But to me, i just don't, like, have enough evidence to convince me
00:43:21
nalu
um that it's, like, the Christian God from, like, the Bible. Like, nor do I have enough evidence for a different kind of God. You know what i mean? Like, it I mean, there's more evidence to me that there...
00:43:35
nalu
that there's like a Christian type of God, or like that
00:43:41
nalu
um type of being, than there is for any other type of God, I think. But still, I just, I don't know. i
00:43:52
nalu
I started off last year very gung-ho about trying to revisit that faith. Um, because i think faith right now, I've described it earlier, like faith was kind of like the biggest, um, thing for me.
00:44:15
nalu
Like that was like the engine that kept me going or the, or I don't know, gasoline that kept me going. And now I don't have any of that. That's probably like the biggest obstacle for me just because of what happened. And I'll explain.
00:44:31
nalu
Um, It just goes back to, like, 2019. um Around my birthday 2019, I kind of like... My depression dipped pretty bad, and it kind of lasted me for... a It kind of stayed that low for a while. I'm not to be sure why. I don't know.
00:44:57
nalu
But... um Yeah, I was just kind of, like, in a... a dark place. Um, I was heavily, heavily involved still. Like I was the worship leader at the time for my dad's church. And, um, my wife at the time, she was helping me with sound and, uh, um, yeah. And I was setting up church. i was breaking it down. I was, you know, holding Bible studies.
00:45:30
nalu
um Yeah, the whole nine yards. I was giving sermons, all that. I mean, yeah I was wearing so many hats. And and I think that may have been a factor in it. But I think over time from October to, which is my birthday, to like, you know, Thanksgiving is where I started. Like after Thanksgiving is where I started to like,
00:45:59
nalu
you know, bring up, oh, Christmas service, you know, like, oh, you know, Christmas is coming up. We should, I know, I know we want to do like this big old thing for Christmas service. So we got to start planning now.
00:46:12
nalu
And then,
00:46:15
nalu
yeah I just felt like it was being put in the back burner, but like, I know that like, whatever whatever Christmas service was gonna be, like, I was gonna be the one to, like, set up all the the equipment, you know, the direct the music and, like, hold rehearsals and, you know, pretty much be a producer the day of you know, and, like, make sure everybody's ready to go. and yeah.
00:46:44
nalu
And it just felt like a couple of weeks, like two weeks before Christmas service, we had this big idea. We finally had a meeting about it. Had this big old plan. and it was going to be outside. And it was going you know, and it was it was a lot. Like, there's skits. There's a choir. There's, like, Christmas songs.
00:47:02
nalu
You know, worship songs. There's lights, you know. And then, yeah, I was like, holy shit. Like, just thinking about all the things that I have to do to like, help make that happen, you know i mean? Like, it was very daunting to me.
00:47:19
nalu
But we made it happen, I mean, with the expense of me getting burnt out. But it was like twice a week we had Christmas rehearsal and also like, um just like worship rehearsal for that Sunday.
00:47:40
nalu
And so it was like a lot like directing a choir. I was getting the songs together, whatever. And I was learning my parts too, cause I was playing guitar and piano. Like, but, um, the day of, um, all of this kind of like led to this one moment of like, you know, I get there early. I helped set up, um, set up the sound.
00:48:05
nalu
projector lights. Um, and then it was just really hard to like, everyone who was in a good mood, which is, I mean, yeah, it's great, but it was really hard to like, get them to stand by, you know, it's like, we're about to go up, you know, get a standby, be ready to go. And it was like really hard to like, like gather everybody.
00:48:31
nalu
And i think just, um, that coupled with what I had been dealing with already and like also like standing there and like looking around like questioning like why are we doing it you know any of this you know and so you know after I pretty much I pretty much left before the end of it and I just told my dad like you guys got it like I'm i'm going home and um yeah so I left and
00:49:03
nalu
Yeah, so I just pretty much at that moment, i everything everything, you know, like all the questions that I had as a kid that I was told to ask God when I died, like all of those questions, like like pretty much any question that i could have had, like kind of like got broken down and like I was like shook, you know.
Re-evaluating Christian Beliefs
00:49:32
nalu
At that moment, I kind of was like, well, why do I believe in anything that I believe? Like, you know, like, why we doing this? Why why are we putting on this whole production? Like, why do I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and for my sins and then ascended to heaven, you know?
00:49:52
nalu
Like, why, you know, why do I believe in that? Do I even believe in that, you know? And so i kind of went like, that's kind of like how it started was like pretty much years of wearing too many hats and like getting burnt out.
00:50:11
nalu
um Also having like a full-time job aside from that. And this is all like, I never got paid for any of this, you know, I just kind of like did it out of like, you know, my call for one and like, you know, the love of, you know, the ministry that I was a part of. and And, but like after a while I realized I was just getting burnt out and like drained and, um, but that was the catalyst of it all. And i you know, I told my dad who who was the pastor and my mom, um, that I was just going to step down from everything. Like, I'm not going to serve anymore. I'm just going to sit in service and,
00:50:50
nalu
And, uh, yeah. And just as like be a part of the congregation, you know?
00:50:58
nalu
And I didn't even, like, i was the worship leader, but after that, I never sang a worship song. I, even in the congregation, I never sang. I just read the words and i took notes and tried to understand what the songs meant because did I even believe in any of the songs I was singing? Like, i don't even know, you know?
00:51:16
nalu
And, um... Yeah, I kind of just stood there. I read the words. i I took notes and took notes during the sermon and I wrote down questions and a after service, I researched it, made sure that it made sense, made sure that it was like legit, you know?
00:51:35
nalu
and then I got into like apologetics a little bit and like start to you know, research the evidence for the faith, you know, and like, um like why we believe in the things we do. And like, I got into that and like, you know, a lot of like the foundational things that, that ah I guess make you a Christian, like lot of the foundational things yeah I can get on board with, but like some of the things I'm still like struggling, I was still struggling with.
00:52:06
nalu
And then I started getting into like other religions. Like I didn't practice to them. I just kind of like researched them and like read like their perspective on things and like why they believe in what they believe in.
00:52:18
nalu
And then, yeah, just like atheists, like I got to say atheism. Like I, you know, try to see the side of like atheists and scientists and like, yeah.
00:52:29
nalu
yeah And I just kind of like went on this journey and every, you know, i stopped going to my dad my dad's church. Um, because i I, don't know, I just didn't feel right there. And I don't know.
00:52:42
nalu
it It felt like I was going into like,
00:52:47
nalu
don't know. Yeah. I don't know. was just, it just didn't feel right. So I, I stopped going to my dad's church and then I started, um, attending other churches just to see if I can find something that like resonated with like,
00:53:04
nalu
my my thoughts or like taught me straight from the scripture and like straight, like no bullshit. You know what mean? Like, but like every church that i went to, and I know a lot of people people say like, you know, you're not going find church that's exactly what you're looking for.
00:53:19
nalu
You know, but I don't know. I think I was just on this journey of finding like genuine people with like no bullshit and I just couldn't find it anywhere.
00:53:30
nalu
You know, I feel like I ever any church that I went to, I like shook hands and it was like the fakest smile. You know, it's like. like just like the most surface level conversations. And like, I was in a place where I couldn't handle that. Like I needed, like ah needed real conversations. You know what Like I, I gotta, I don't want to be judged for, you know, the way that looked coming in or like, you know, i don't want to be judged for like, um,
00:53:58
nalu
my perspective on, on life or anything like any questions that I had, like, I didn't want to, I don't want to feel judged. Like i I want them to be, you know, I want to have a conversation whether you know the answer or not. Like I, I, you know, I just want this like, like this good, like core, I guess cordial conversation, I guess.
00:54:18
nalu
um Yeah. I don't know. it was, it was really hard to find. And I kind of just gave up trying And then after i
00:54:31
nalu
um after I broke up with my my wife at the time, I realized that a lot of lot of my life was like trying to please other people. So I kind of just like i kind of just like threw all that all that out and like i've just felt like ah was' in full like fully myself And so I kind of just explored that and like, I feel like whoever wants to be around me for who I am, not because I'm like this Christian that's like, you know, I don't know, like trying to be perfect, you know, but for who I am and like that I'm, you know, fucked up and like, you know, whoever wants to be around me, they'll be around me and whoever is,
00:55:23
nalu
fake will leave my life and that's kind of what that was like my philosophy at the time and um i learned a lot about myself but um that that was kind of the moment where i was just like ah uh you know i i won't i won't deny deny the existence of god but i i'm just not gonna put any effort into you know understanding any of it
00:55:51
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. I mean, i feel like, you know, ah the sort of like conservative Christian,
00:56:04
Keegan Drummond
um like nose in the air type of person might be like, well, was his faith real all along? I am kind of curious though about like,
00:56:17
Keegan Drummond
Because I knew you back then. And and I don't know. It seems like the way you describe faith, it seems to be a sort of like blind willingness to...
00:56:35
Keegan Drummond
accept absurd things as truth like water to wine walking on water uh you know whatever but like i don't know like i see um faith you know this like through and I see prayer through like who you are and who you were when I knew you.
00:57:05
Keegan Drummond
And like the the person that you know goes to a la la park and like hangs out with homeless dudes and like like i and or who who sends some outcast girl to the trying to find her a friend. like I don't know. like ah faith i don't know like it's it's like do like what i mean i guess i guess i'm trying to avoid being the because like obviously i'm still like faithful like i'm still i i'm i'm i'm roman catholic now like i'm i'm like i go to church every sunday um i pray whatever like i'm i'm trying to resist being like
00:57:52
Keegan Drummond
Nalu, come back, whatever. Like, obviously, I'm like, you know, that's whatever.
00:57:54
nalu
but
00:57:57
nalu
No.
00:57:58
Keegan Drummond
But I'm just trying to understand, like, um I guess I'm really curious about like your psyche, like, like your mind, the the process going through your mind of like, moving into this sort of
00:58:16
Keegan Drummond
evidence-based scientific look in the world and how you saw that as antithetical, um but at the same time, really understanding and putting into work the the message of Christ. And it's not mere, like, moralism. I don't think you're, like, merely, like, because I don't think Christianity is just merely...
00:58:42
Keegan Drummond
like doing good things and like whatever like I think you actually do have to believe and you have to um um I mean you you have to um I mean it's kind of loaded I guess and especially coming from where I'm at and where the rest of my audience is so I guess I'm just not gonna super get into that maybe that's not really useful
00:59:01
nalu
True.
00:59:06
nalu
Mm-hmm.
00:59:09
Keegan Drummond
in this conversation, but, like, I feel like you understood what it was to be a Christian better than others, and it's, like, incredibly unfortunate that, like, um...
00:59:25
Keegan Drummond
I don't know, like, that we were just stuck in a way of doing ministry that really wasn't congruent with how the that Christian life ought to be.
00:59:41
Keegan Drummond
um And, like, it seems like, like, I don't know, like, the system sort of failed you in some way. I don't know. Like, I'm more frustrated than anything, and maybe that's coming out a bit, like, too much, and I'm being, like, incoherent right now. But that's, like, I don't know. Like, that's just how I am kind of taking the situation.
01:00:04
Keegan Drummond
If that makes any sense, like...
01:00:05
nalu
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. i mean, um, yeah, I kind of like viewed, I guess my journey in like different ways, like,
01:00:18
nalu
I look back, you know, not recently, but, like, oh, I guess, like, about a year ago, I would look back and, like, think about, like, was it, like, actually, like, God or was it, like, the people? And it's always the people. Like, it's always, like, the fucking people that ruin shit, you know what mean? Like, it's always... i mean, we're we're all broken. We're all, like, fucked up. We got these...
01:00:46
nalu
bad habits and like trying to, you know, insecurities and all that shit. And all comes it all comes out. I mean, no matter how many times you like, you know, put a mask on, it'll come out, whatever.
01:00:59
nalu
um And I think I just had enough of that. And there was a lot of it in the in the church, especially like in the Western church, like, like it was like way too much for me to handle.
01:01:10
nalu
um so I understand that a lot of my, ah distance was a product of, of like the people, you know?
01:01:24
nalu
And, but I think through that, like it, it like kind of surfaced a lot of like, I guess, I don't really know what to call it, but um just like my struggle with,
01:01:38
nalu
um with the truth, I suppose. Yeah. Like, something clicked in me where I was like, do I actually believe in what I, what I'm saying that I believe and what I'm preaching that I believe and other people should believe, you know, like, do I actually believe in that?
01:02:01
nalu
And i think
01:02:08
nalu
now, like, well then, like approaching, approaching the gospel and the Bible and god through this new lens
01:02:22
nalu
made it harder for me to believe in things like, yeah, I do. I mean, ah there, you know, there has to be something beyond, you know, it wouldn't make any sense if there wasn't and and everything just kind of came out of nothing, you know, it doesn't compute to me.
01:02:41
nalu
Um, there's a lot of things that I've experienced that, I feel like I just i just want to i want it to be miraculous, so I'm just going to keep it as miraculous.
01:02:53
nalu
um But yeah, i don't know. There's a small part of me that kind of wishes that i was that I almost was in the same place as I used to be, but I think majority of myself...
01:03:11
nalu
is proud of where I am now just cause like I'm thinking more for myself and like, um I'm kind of viewing things more objectively and, and um I mean, yeah, I'm more cynical now, but like, i like that better than being more ignorant, you know?
01:03:31
nalu
um Cause I, I feel like I was ignorant. Like I i was taking things as they were and I was kind of just, you know, whatever the Bible says, yeah, I'll just believe it, whatever. Um, but the things that I do believe, um, yeah, I can say I believe in them. Like I, like for instance, like, i mean, well, I have to revisit it actually. It's been a long time. Like at, like i'd say like three years ago, i would say that there was a heaven.
01:04:04
nalu
Yeah. And this was like already, yeah like, like a year or two after ah I've, I've left the church and I've like done research and like dug up evidence and like listen or like, like listen to like people like professors talk and like scientists talk and like, yeah, read a lot, a lot of interesting things that kind of like brought me to this place. Like, yeah, there is a heaven.
01:04:31
nalu
There has to be. And like, um, Yeah, there is there was like like an Adam and Eve, you know what I mean? like There were certain things that I kind of like found in myself um like believing in.
01:04:51
nalu
but i don't like right now, where I'm at now, I have to like revisit that and just... make sure I still believe in that. Um, I've just been so far, but far from it.
01:05:03
nalu
Like I, I kind of just leave it as it is. And i kind of just pretty much live my life as, as objectively as possible. um but yeah, don't, I don't know.
01:05:19
nalu
Kind of went out time.
01:05:19
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, it seems like you really, one, you value value authenticity a lot. And I think it like really matters to you um one, um secondarily, whether people are authentic.
01:05:28
nalu
I'm
01:05:33
Keegan Drummond
um And it seems like you weren't able to really ah encounter authentic people um when you were in church.
01:05:39
nalu
hu
01:05:41
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. But primarily, it seems like you really value authenticity um in yourself. And whether like you can't you you you it seems like you've come to a place where you're unwilling to like fake.
01:06:04
Keegan Drummond
that you're okay and that you're okay with everything that is said to you and, um, that,
01:06:14
nalu
um
01:06:17
Keegan Drummond
you're going to be authentically introspective and come at things, um, through, through more of an intellectual lens. Um, and I mean, is that what it is that, that like this sort of like fakeness and, um,
01:06:38
Keegan Drummond
It's kind of interesting. like like You have this clear resistance to inauthenticity um that seems to coincide with like blind faith, like yeah this sort of like dual resistance towards those two things.
01:07:00
Keegan Drummond
Is that fair to say? Yeah.
01:07:05
nalu
Yeah, yeah, i think I think that makes sense, and I think that is definitely a thing. Because, they yeah, to me, yeah, faith is like...
01:07:18
nalu
i don't know. Yeah, it takes a lot of trust in something that I can't see.
01:07:24
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:07:25
nalu
And I'm very, like, physical-based. You know, like, have to be able to see it or at least, like, be able to, like, understand what it is or, like, grasp it or you know, measure it or something, you know?
01:07:42
nalu
Like, you know, in some way.
01:07:43
Keegan Drummond
yeah
01:07:45
nalu
And faith requires... I feel like faith doesn't require that. It requires like trusting in
01:07:55
nalu
and I don't know, the lack thereof, you know, it's like, it's like my, it's like, it's like the final boss for me, you know, like, it's like my arch and nemesis where once it was like my best friend, but now
01:08:13
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, i don't know. Like, I think a lot of people can relate to that. Like, but I think that's precisely the problem. Like, I don't know if we were necessarily um brought up in a
01:08:32
Keegan Drummond
religious theological tradition that had a very coherent explanation of what faith is because like that's not i don't think that's actually faith like faith isn't sort of a blind um irrational um like belief system it's it's it's i mean it's a supra rational it's a it encompasses the rational but it also transcends the rational and it's this radical um experience of the the rational and the supernatural i mean but yeah i don't i don't think it's necessarily just this like blind um like willingness to just accept
01:09:10
nalu
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:09:19
Keegan Drummond
nonsense you know and i don't think the faith has ever been that i mean even like the the things that you're you're kind of saying like you've come to this belief that there's some sort of like theistic truth out there like there's something out there and that's you know that's like because there has to be a primary cause behind all things you know like um you know that's something that like christians have discussed for you know thousands of years right or yeah like like But we weren't necessarily being like yeah fostered in those intellectual traditions.
01:09:47
nalu
Yeah.
01:09:55
Keegan Drummond
And I think that's just unfortunate. um Because like it goes to show, like I mean, someone like you, you're you're like running on fumes, ah trying to like balance the difficulties of of faith while also being like handed the keys to this ministry and just being like make it happen brother like you know i don't know um and i think that's a lot of people like it's just like um like clearly ill-equipped not like ill-equipped in the sense of being like uh incompetent but ill-equipped in the sense of like
01:10:25
nalu
Thank you.
01:10:35
Keegan Drummond
Like, I don't have the bandwidth in any means to, like, accomplish this, you know? um I don't know. Like, I feel like that's that's a lot of people's story, that we really didn't understand what this thing was ah about, but we were doing it, and for better or worse, you know?
01:11:03
nalu
Yeah. For sure.
01:11:08
nalu
Yeah.
01:11:12
Keegan Drummond
So I guess, I mean, um i don't know, like, Brittany and I joked ah the last podcast about, like like, what would it take for you to come back?
01:11:24
Keegan Drummond
And I didn't want it to sound like, because I'm, like, obviously I'm kind of, like, still on the inside in another way. Like, I'm sure a lot of people don't think I'm, like, really Christian, but I promise, like, I am. But, um like, what is, like,
01:11:37
nalu
Thank
01:11:38
Keegan Drummond
what ah what is like I guess, um what holds you back now? And like what would need to be answered? Is there anything that would need to be like repaired for you to come back to faith? Or like are you content with where you are? or like um I don't know. I'm just curious. And it's not me like trying to proselytize i'm just like because i'm like i'm not even sitting like explaining really like what i believe like i'm really just curious about like what you believe and where you're at with it your like openness to it whatever
01:12:22
nalu
Yeah, I mean, um
01:12:28
nalu
I don't really know what it will take, but I mean, probably a lot. Like, you know, i when I moved out here to Billings,
01:12:33
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:12:40
nalu
um I told yeah i told one of my ah one of my closest friends back home before I moved,
01:12:52
nalu
Um, I told him, yeah, when when I decide to go, it'll be like a Hail Mary for me and like God, you know, I think it'll be a good time for me to like, just really dig deep and like figure it out.
Reconciliation Attempts in Billings
01:13:14
nalu
and man, I, I really tried.
01:13:19
nalu
Like I put, I mean, I put, like...
01:13:26
nalu
um Well, i I was invited to churches, but then I i didn't want to, like, compromise, like, who I was. So I would wear, like...
01:13:38
nalu
my battle vest to the church. So like all my patches and like, I had this like Ronnie James Dio patch on my bag and like this, one of the local bands in Hawaii, they have like an upside down cross.
01:13:53
nalu
I was walking into church like that. And like, dude, I mean, i don't know. There was one church that actually didn't give a fuck. they're Like, Hey, what's up?
01:14:02
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:14:03
nalu
How you doing? Like, Hey, what's up? Uh, but, Yeah, a couple of times i would go in, I just get, like, weird looks, nobody would talk to me, and, but, like, I would actually sit down, and I had, like, a notebook of, like, um, I would listen to a shits on a podcast, I would, I had to study Bible, and I would, like, really, like, get into the Word again, and it's been, it had been, like, like, fucking years, like, since I've, I've, I've read the Bible, even, like,
01:14:37
nalu
And yeah, i was really getting into it. And I had all these questions. i Pretty much the same thing, except I went pretty hard in like taking notes during service and like um writing down questions to research and also ask um So my mentor that i lived with in California that did... um ah Native American Ministries, he moved out here to Billings, and that's why I'm here.
01:15:04
nalu
not Not to do that, but help him I ah helped him open a coffee shop out in the reservation. But, yeah, I would ask him a shit ton of questions, and, like, I don't know, he would try to answer them, but there were questions that, like, I didn't expect to really get an answer, and if I did, I'd be very surprised.
01:15:25
nalu
um So, I kind of hit a wall of, like, these questions and like just trying to understand. And I realized there was a certain point where I realized that in my research and in my, and like trying to understand and grasp this concept of God and like Jesus Christ and the gospel and all of that, I realized that I will never fully understand.
01:15:55
nalu
And ah hated that, but, I think in order for me to come back, I realized that I would have to at least close the gap between my, my, you know, what makes sense and what doesn't enough to, I guess, triangulate that, ah you know, <unk> i don't really know how to explain it, but like,
01:16:24
nalu
kind of have enough evidence surrounding the disbelief to then believe in that disbelief because there's enough evidence that, you know, that's got to be real because of all of this other evidence that surrounds it, you know? So like that gap that I miss, I'm missing, I feel like that will be the point where I would come back because, know,
01:16:48
nalu
Yeah, it would just take all of these fucking questions of like, why does it say this? And why did, you know, like, why is Satan in the beginning of time? Like, you know, like, but like, what the fuck is happening?
01:17:02
nalu
You know, and like, getting all of these other answers surrounding all of these um things that are unclear. i i feel like ah it'll, it'll reach a point where, you know, maybe I'll,
01:17:18
nalu
I'll be able to believe in the whole thing because of the surrounding evidence. If that makes sense.
01:17:27
Keegan Drummond
e Kind of. i mean, i kind of see, I'm not really sure exactly what you mean by the, I guess like that the the evidence and the, I wasn't maybe tracking there as far as the like...
01:17:40
Keegan Drummond
so like um kind of like what what boxes need to be be checked there. is Is it that like you have maybe a particular difficulty around, you know, XY issue, and if that's answered, um then that leads to this difficulty, and maybe if that one's rectified, it'll lead to this difficulty, and then so on and so on until you...
01:18:08
Keegan Drummond
sort of have come to a place of like belief or is it am i so i'm sorry i i maybe i didn't understand it too much
01:18:15
nalu
yeah Yeah, kind of. I mean, it's like, I kind of see it less linear and more like ah kind of scattered in a way.
01:18:26
Keegan Drummond
okay
01:18:26
nalu
Like it's like a web of like truths. And like, I feel like if I like, if i believe in this, but I don't understand this,
01:18:41
nalu
Then I'll try to figure this out and I'll figure this out. um And I feel like sooner or later, I'll figure these four things out and this would make sense. Does that?
01:18:55
nalu
Sorry. if Yeah.
01:18:56
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I guess so.
01:18:57
nalu
Yeah.
01:18:57
Keegan Drummond
i mean, um that like it's all sort of interconnected, these different ideas, and one might not necessarily make sense without the other, um or some might make sense together, but not without, like there might be like an outlier, which then kind of throws the whole thing into question.
01:19:05
nalu
feel like.
01:19:18
Keegan Drummond
Is that more so what what it is, a sort of like constellation of understanding, I guess?
01:19:26
nalu
I think so. I mean, i feel, well, yeah, all of this kind of is like bred from like me trying to grasp everything, like, you know, understand it and like have evidence and like physical like evidence for all of these things but knowing that I can't in order to come like come back to the church or to the faith like knowing that I can't do that for everything I have to get as much evidence as I can surrounding these things that I can't understand in order to like
01:20:02
nalu
start getting the gears to turn for those, I guess, other things. I don't know. It's like a prerequisites almost. It's kind of, i don't know. It's kind of like, that's just like a theory of mine. Like, I feel like that's what it'll take.
01:20:17
nalu
Like really understanding as much as I can so that I can understand the things that I will never understand. That's,
01:20:27
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because even if you do figure out something like more difficulties arise, um, as a result of, you know, figuring out something.
01:20:41
Keegan Drummond
Um, and it's like, and I guess what what you're kind of touching on, like if we're talking about things that are eternal, like then by nature, it's not necessarily something that can be kind of like killed and dissected and um, um, sort of just like plotted out in, in, in a way that is all encompassing and, um, sort of like,
01:21:04
nalu
Yeah.
01:21:13
Keegan Drummond
boom, there it is, you know? um
01:21:15
nalu
Yeah.
01:21:15
Keegan Drummond
Like, if if we are talking about, like, a God, then God has to be, you know, um in a sense, and unknowable. I guess what's kind of funny and maybe, like, ironic is that you, um you know, you probably go into these churches and look like someone who is, like, completely closed off and wanting to, like...
01:21:25
nalu
Mm-hmm.
01:21:40
Keegan Drummond
like shut it down like you're coming in with like a notebook and like like vigorously taking notes or whatever with like a like a jacket on but like ironically are like super open to like like that's just like i just imagine that picture in my mind of you like going in and doing that and
01:21:43
nalu
yeah but but but really
01:21:54
nalu
so You
01:22:02
Keegan Drummond
But at the same time, like this inner reality that you seem to have where you're like, I'm like genuinely coming from a place of like curiosity and um exploration and wanting to figure this out. um And that's just, I don't know.
01:22:23
Keegan Drummond
It's just kind of like funny to me because I'm sure people are not getting that vibe from you.
01:22:24
nalu
and
01:22:29
Keegan Drummond
If that's fair, i don't know.
01:22:30
nalu
Yeah, yeah i think I think that was part of, like, the fun for me, though. It's like I come in looking like a Satanist and, and like...
01:22:35
Keegan Drummond
Max.
01:22:37
nalu
but But, like, in actuality, I'm just, like, really curious.
01:22:45
Keegan Drummond
Just like screwing with people. I mean, that's fair.
01:22:46
nalu
Yeah, yeah, it's just funny. But, like, i i kind of want, like, people to understand, like... you know, don't judge a book by its cover.
01:22:57
nalu
You know, it's like, that was, that was part of it.
01:22:58
Keegan Drummond
Hmm.
01:22:59
nalu
Like, of course, I'm not trying to like dress up in a way for that reason, but I, I kind of just went in as myself for that reason.
01:23:11
nalu
um because I, I'll, I mean, what whatever background you come from, it's, it's possible to be a kind and understanding person. Um, and I feel like,
01:23:23
nalu
You know, a lot a lot of people, especially here where I'm at, um it's easy to judge and like um judge people for how they look and not even care to understand any anyone.
01:23:37
nalu
um But I've had ah a few good like interactions with people in a church, um very specific church, because they were kind of like in the middle of like, like,
01:23:52
nalu
you know, like ah a prison and like a detention center and like, like rehab, you know?
01:23:56
Keegan Drummond
Interesting. Yeah.
01:23:58
nalu
And so like a lot of people that went there, um some of them had to, but um they had to like do like community service and stuff there.
01:23:58
Keegan Drummond
yeah
01:24:07
nalu
But they they were actually like a lot of broken people. And it was like it me walking in there just felt normal, you know? And it was nice because like,
01:24:20
nalu
like i don't really smoke that much anymore, but like I used to like smoke a shit ton of cigarettes and I would, I would like go behind the church and like smoke a cigarette and walk around the front.
01:24:34
nalu
And the first time I did that, I walked around the front and the guy that like with a, like a high res, um, high visibility vest leading people into the service, like, um into the church, the front door, he was literally smoking a cigarette. And I'm like,
01:24:50
nalu
All right. Sick. I came to the right place, I guess.
01:24:51
Keegan Drummond
My people.
01:24:55
nalu
But, um, yeah, it was like, um, that place really like kind of embodied, like we don't care where you come from and like what you've done, like as long as you're here, we're like down to you know, be hospitable,
01:25:09
nalu
and like care for you, you know? And I think that, that was like a cool experience for me because, you know, I've been to a few churches and I've been in a few circles where it just felt like i you know, I just didn't belong there, you know? And I didn't i didn't say anything. I just didn't, you nobody knew who I, a couple of people knew who I was, but like, I just, I just felt like,
01:25:32
nalu
people were avoiding me, whether they were probably scared of me or like, but or just judging me. Like I was, um you know, not good enough or that could have just been my own insecurities. But um going to that church though, i I definitely felt like, you know, there was no hierarchy and there was like, you know, people were in the same place. We're all trying to just get through it, you know? And that that was, yeah, that was like a beautiful experience for me.
01:26:04
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely different for sure than anything we probably experienced ah growing up in the evangelical churches of Hawaii. um Yeah, I think it's a very top-down, very performative.
01:26:19
Keegan Drummond
I think everyone needs to look ah a certain way.
01:26:19
nalu
Right.
01:26:22
Keegan Drummond
feel like everyone's aesthetic kind of aligned, and if it didn't, um that became a problem. and We saw that with Kamaha'o was the first episode, and we were talking about dressing more femininely and kind of testing those boundaries, and you you kind of see that sort of ah resistance to that clearly.
01:26:30
nalu
Right. maybe were
01:26:36
nalu
right
01:26:40
Keegan Drummond
so I mean... Yeah, i mean, i mean i don't know. The story of yours, you know as we kind of come to a bit of a close here, like it seems almost like...
01:26:55
Keegan Drummond
um
Journey of Questioning Faith
01:26:57
Keegan Drummond
I don't know. like I think it's a pretty cool journey that you've been on, but it's also... I i mean like i like appreciate it, and I like i think it's awesome, ah that this the sort of questioning and the introspection, and and I think there's a lot of value, but it it seems like it's come at the expense of a lot of hardship and in a sense like tragedy.
01:27:25
Keegan Drummond
i um I don't know. like it's It's cool. and and i mean it's like Your life is cool and great, but like it seems like that to get to the places you you're you're at and where you've been, like you' you've had to go through a lot of difficulty. and That comes out of a place of just like...
01:27:49
Keegan Drummond
um of dealing with being confronted by like inauthenticity with, um, I think at its core, it seems to be the thing that, that, that bothers you a lot.
01:28:04
Keegan Drummond
Like, um, and, and that's manifest in like the way we did ministry, the way, um, um,
01:28:17
Keegan Drummond
the way we we handled, the way like your your difficulties and your questions were handled. I mean, they came from this sort of like inauthentic sort of um place.
01:28:33
Keegan Drummond
I don't know. Is that fair? like What do you think? How would you summarize like
01:28:39
Keegan Drummond
your journey with
01:28:44
Keegan Drummond
evangelicalism the christian faith like this faith that you grew up in like and where you are now like how would you summarize that
01:28:55
nalu
Yeah, I mean,
01:28:58
nalu
yeah it's like a lot of coming into this, like, performative thing. um lot lot of people were genuine, but, like, yeah, I just kind of, like, was dropped into this this ah organization or organization.
01:29:16
nalu
institution of like, you know, this is Jesus and here's a rock and roll concert. And that's just how it is. And, um, over time, it just, I began to think about it more and like compare the churches today to like the Bible. And like, it became further and further from the truth. And I got more and more confused and like, um,
01:29:47
nalu
started to question more and ah then it it got to a ah point where I just questioned everything from the beginning of my journey.
01:29:58
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:29:59
nalu
And then that journey kind of reset from with a new perspective. And now I'm kind of just like,
01:30:11
nalu
um, I'm kind of like at a loss of like, uh, I will never understand things. It sucks. I mean, ah i fucking hate not understanding things. Like I love trying to figure shit out.
01:30:24
nalu
Um, and so that's, that's kind of like my biggest struggle right now. And I'm not really actively in that struggle. Um, I've kind of just like been living my life and it's been kind of nice, honestly. i mean, like,
01:30:41
nalu
I do, i feel like I'm mentally ah kind of better and like just even emotionally, i'm I'm a lot more intelligent than I used to be.
01:30:53
nalu
ah and so there's, I don't see a lot of like ah attraction to how my life was and like the lifestyle that was.
01:31:06
nalu
came from. um The only thing, i mean, i think there's always that like, ah that thought of like eternal life, you know, like what does that even mean? And is it even real that death is inevitable? we will, we all are born and we all die, you know, like, and that's it, you know, you know, and like what happens after that,
01:31:33
nalu
it's, it's unknown. And so like, there's always that thought of like, well, it's better to like, believe than like, go to fucking, you know, go to hell. You know what i mean? Like, you know, and, um, I don't know.
01:31:42
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:31:46
nalu
It's, it's always in the back of my mind, but, um, I, I'm just like, not actively like in that battle right now. So that's, that's kind of like the summary of, of my journey, I guess.
01:31:59
nalu
Um,
01:32:00
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah. yeah And that's that's fair. And I appreciate your like candor with that. Cause I think a lot of people can relate to that. Like, I mean, of just,
01:32:13
Keegan Drummond
One, if you were to go back, like, it wouldn't be in the same way. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. Like, it's not going to be the same.
01:32:19
nalu
All right.
01:32:21
Keegan Drummond
I'm not the same person I was. um And, like... you know It's not like the alchemist where you're like, oh, I was i was there the whole time. i just needed to come to my senses. It's like, no, I like had to go on this journey. um And if I come back to it, I'm not going to be the exact same person I was or whatever. Maybe it is like the alchemist. I don't know.
01:32:47
Keegan Drummond
But I think a lot of people can relate to that. like Just this feeling of like,
01:32:56
Keegan Drummond
I don't know, hope, but of, um, but not exactly sure where that's located, um, and how to get there, but knowing it's there and, uh,
01:33:11
Keegan Drummond
I don't know. it's' i'm I'm right there with you with with the difficulties.
01:33:16
nalu
For
01:33:17
Keegan Drummond
it's it's It's a hard thing. um And it feels irrational at times, especially just like in light of all the difficulties and human suffering. And I mean, now I'm right there with you. Yeah.
01:33:33
Keegan Drummond
But um yeah, I feel like to some extent, like, you know, like it's just, it's all
Conclusion and Future Discussions
01:33:38
Keegan Drummond
I know. And I had to make it make sense and, you know, but yeah.
01:33:40
nalu
sure.
01:33:42
nalu
Yes.
01:33:45
Keegan Drummond
um But I think, and then there's other people like you, where just like, well, I'm like, I'm okay with living in that sort of liminal space maybe. Yeah.
01:33:58
nalu
Yeah.
01:33:59
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Well, appreciate your time, man. And um i' I'm ah eager to see what people think. and i think a lot of people are going to relate. Do you have any concluding, closing thoughts or anything you'd like to say to anyone?
01:34:15
Keegan Drummond
Because a lot of people are listening from from from a previous life. So if if you wanted to like plug anything or share like where you're, anything with them, like if if there's anything you'd want to say, like go for it.
01:34:21
nalu
Yeah.
01:34:31
nalu
Well, yeah, I mean, I love all the people that I used to hang with, play music with at at the church, you know. Had a lot of good times, but yeah, I mean, just want to say love you guys, miss you guys. Hell yeah.
01:34:46
nalu
other than that, yeah, dude, I mean, i honestly wish I had time to, like, hear about your story too, but another day.
01:34:54
Keegan Drummond
we're talking about maybe doing it. And yeah, even now I'm like, I'm trying to like resist, you know, it's like, cause it's just not, it's just not useful. And it's not like what we're trying to do. Like, I'm like, Oh, do I like share like what I think about that or whatever?
01:35:03
nalu
yeah
01:35:06
Keegan Drummond
It's like, I'm like constantly resisting that, but we're actually like talking about doing one eventually. But yeah, it's like, I keep like going through that in my head, but it's really like these, you know, these stories, they're you're you, you're guys' stories.
01:35:14
nalu
Nice.
01:35:20
Keegan Drummond
And,
01:35:21
nalu
Joe?
01:35:21
Keegan Drummond
um i don't know like at that those moments like you're the most interesting person in the room so like i want like hear that and the people want to hear that so it's like like i'll get to mine eventually but um yeah i um it's definitely like an internal difficulty for me to not try and like vocalize everything about like what i think about something and being annoying
01:35:42
nalu
sure yeah
01:35:46
nalu
yeah yeah and like understanding understanding that from my side too like I know the purpose of this whole thing and I like the whole time I'm resisting like asking questions about you like okay
01:36:00
Keegan Drummond
No, no. that's I mean, we could do that.
01:36:01
nalu
yeah
01:36:02
Keegan Drummond
It's like, because it is kind of, I don't know.
01:36:02
nalu
okay
01:36:03
Keegan Drummond
like that's Like, that's a good point. Like, you know, maybe it is like inauthentic to like resist that ah line of questioning. I don't know.
01:36:14
Keegan Drummond
That's a good point. Like maybe, maybe like, because it's like, we're trying to have a conversation and like, it is kind of one-sided to some extent. um If I'm just like, oh, like, what's going on?
01:36:24
Keegan Drummond
It's all like, yeah maybe it maybe it is inauthentic to like, yeah, I don't know.
01:36:29
nalu
Well
01:36:30
Keegan Drummond
That's something for me to think about, though.
01:36:31
nalu
Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's cool though. I mean, for one, it's cool to just, you know, catch up a little bit with you and just like have a conversation. um and I, like I like, think knowing the purpose behind this, like this podcast, um, like it's, it's fine. It's fine with me.
01:36:50
nalu
i just have this thing in me where i I want to catch up with you and like see where you've been. But like that, yeah, that can definitely be another time. I just,
01:36:58
Keegan Drummond
Okay, I'll pause this and then we can talk and then i'll we'll let this upload wallet while we're while we're stopped.
01:37:03
nalu
Okay.
01:37:03
Keegan Drummond
and then Okay, bet. I'm going stop it.