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#8 My Friend the Puritan - Keegan Drummond
29 Plays7 months ago
Lots of problems recording this one. The guest was extremely problematic. Against my better judgement, I have uploaded it here. No video :(
Keegan Drummond was part of an Evangelical community in Hawaii for over 10 years. After attending bible college, he went to the mainland to pursue an M.Div. While in divinity school, he entered the Roman Catholic Church.
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Transcript
Introduction and Light-hearted Banter
00:00:01
Speaker
Oh, we're recording. Now we're live, yeah.
00:00:06
Speaker
I mean, I never said that I could get better than you. Dude, oh my gosh. You said you would show me how to do a good intro. Yeah, it was a joke, Keegan. You ever heard of that? half i I do that sometimes.
00:00:20
Speaker
Okay. I'm personally speaking. I'm my good host, Keala Boer. Today we have ah joining us, Keegan Drummond, man who needs no introduction.
00:00:33
Speaker
um yeah okay so i mean i guess to explain um since you did such a great job introing the podcast whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa who i wasn't done oh you weren't so i'm sorry i'm sorry about that no that's where jesse comes in i was i'm jesse and i'm scared because when the three of us gather i feel like conversations are hard to tame.
00:01:00
Speaker
And so we will do our best to keep things coherent. But that's Keegan's job, and he's the one talking about Keegan. Yeah, was going to say, you're a host. Yeah, I know. I know it's our job, but it shouldn't be our job.
00:01:14
Speaker
That's what I'm saying. Yeah, who trusted us with this? like Keegan should just interview himself, and it's already happening. i think I think we've been planning this for like two weeks now. um You know, feel like the plan's kind of gone out the window.
00:01:29
Speaker
um Anyway, it's hard. It's hard to just give up, to give this thing up to you guys. Yeah. You know. um you're welcome anyway welcome to the podcast keegan welcome to your podcast it's good to have you on how you feeling today it's good to have you oh thanks yeah but what do you what do you have feel like i feel like
00:01:59
Speaker
what did keegan have for breakfast or what did i have breakfast
00:02:04
Speaker
uh never mind we should just restart we should honestly restart that was pretty good though absolutely i don't edit this thing don't do it uh well well i've listened to every podcast have you listened to of them kelly yes and i feel like everyone's been wanting to hear keegan's story but he's just been in host mode.
Keegan's Upbringing and Religious Transition
00:02:28
Speaker
And so we hit him with the Una Reverse card.
00:02:32
Speaker
And so it's just going to be all about Keegan today. Heck yeah. And so I guess we can just jump right in um Keegan, I know you like bring up your like Lutheran upbringing lot before like the youth days. I guess we can just like start.
00:02:51
Speaker
chronologically, guess maybe just like, yeah, maybe just to kind of frame the journey. Well, ah what do you remember? What do you recall kind of like growing up being dropped into kind of like that Lutheran background?
00:03:05
Speaker
yeah i recall everything i mean it's it's you know as you guys know i i recall everything and i mean that's no different the so i grew up in a in a very conservative sect of lutheranism i think when people think of lutheranism they might think of more of uh progressive uh sort of synods what they're called in lutheranism especially here in america but I grew up in a very conservative, one might say like orthodox Lutheranism that
00:03:42
Speaker
was very sort of isolationist. They didn't believe in, for example, ah they didn't believe in praying with other Christian denominations. So my dad was on the church softball team and they played against a Baptist church to the Baptist church pastor asked our pastor if they wanted to pray before the game and our pastor said no We also were fiercely anti Catholic, so I mean I grew up believing that Catholics were going to hell and that the the papacy in itself the chair of St. Peter was representative of the Antichrist so.
00:04:25
Speaker
very conservative politically, theologically. And I grew up in that. I was born into that. I was baptized one month old into that tradition and then went to a private school in that tradition.
00:04:39
Speaker
was surrounded by the same like 10 or so kids growing up from from preschool to when I left, which would have been um fifth grade, I think.
00:04:52
Speaker
and then so And then I'm going to like church every weekend with these folks too. So that's sort of my world. I didn't know anything outside of it until I moved to Hawaii at the age of 11. And then stayed in that while it was in Hawaii.
00:05:06
Speaker
Very small community in Hawaii. We ended up leaving um over some differences that we had with the pastoral staff there. And then ended it up at a very large evangelical church where I met you guys.
Exploration of Church Traditions
00:05:22
Speaker
That's an interesting ah transition going from a very conservative Lutheran church to like a ah comparatively not like not conservative or liberal like yeah like i mean not it's not liberal i wouldn't say i mean no maybe just maybe not a very robust theological tradition and specifically this evangelical tradition the i think the main two draws were that my brother was getting into paddling at the time and the church had a paddling ministry
00:05:56
Speaker
And our neighbor was part of that paddling ministry and invited us. And I think that might've been in the foray. My dad thinks that the church also had a jujitsu ministry. And we went to that a couple of times because we were doing jujitsu um beforehand and, uh,
00:06:14
Speaker
you know It also was yeah know the biggest church on the island, so kind of wanted to see what happened. I think we started off with the midweek services because those were um supposed to be the more deeper, more intimate, more less megachurchy and more
00:06:34
Speaker
you might see more spiritually profound things being said, not necessarily seeker-sensitive type of ah preaching. So that's that's kind of where we started.
00:06:48
Speaker
i mean, that's kind of where we're like you and Keala both like and me kind of like jump in or like our stories kind of collide. Yeah. like At Youth Ministry, what did that kind of feel like going from that... like Lutheran tradition to that evangelical world? Like did you kind of feel that tension at a young age or like what was going I did.
00:07:10
Speaker
I will say real quick, Cal and I actually didn't meet at youth ministry. Our parents went to one Bible study together. So I went to his house when I was really young, probably 12, maybe even younger. Yeah, probably 12 years old.
00:07:27
Speaker
And our parents were in this super long Bible study, only one time ah that my parents attended. And I think we were there three hours and he didn't have a TV, which kind of blew my mind. still Wow. and No video game consoles.
00:07:44
Speaker
So he's getting to roast. We just had to talk. What a concept. Interesting. I mean, we were, cause it was my brother who would have been, 16 at the time, your cousin, who is maybe a little younger than my brother, and then us two, who are, you know, nine days apart.
00:08:06
Speaker
And I think we just, we talked. And i I would ask you like, oh, do you watch Suite Life of Zack and Cody? And you're like, I don't even know what that is, man. What? That's not true. I've never heard of Disney Channel or whatever. I don't know.
00:08:18
Speaker
They're just like... Here's the thing. So the Telecaster is the most,
00:08:28
Speaker
most generous. ah yeah Yeah, we talked about Telecasters. That was something i was going to. Yeah. i And then I think, yeah, that that would have been. But then I don't think you and I hung out um until much later. Yeah, couple years later. Because you weren't really in the youth ministry too much until much later as well.
00:08:50
Speaker
And then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My first memory is at youth camp and Keegan sitting next to me and he says, wow, bro, you smell.
00:09:01
Speaker
And that's your first memory. That's, that's, that's, that is my first actual memory. i don't know I'm exaggerating that, but that's the first time I spoke with you.
Memorable Early Experiences
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I mean, we were, we were playing, I mean, we, we, we'd like played dodgeball together and, you know, yeah obviously grown up around each other in youth ministry, but then, yeah, I mean,
00:09:22
Speaker
you stunk really bad no i i really did and that's the sad part is that it was true that's is that when we were was that like a three-day camp where we're at the lead yeah and like we were we had to shower oh the beach was at the same camp yeah yeah so that would have been going into going into high school and uh so i think you because you were hanging out with a bit of a younger crowd in the junior high ministry like the seventh graders while we were eighth grade And then you came to the high school camp ministry with, and I think that was the thing. Like it was when you were going rising freshmen in high school, you either could go to the junior high camp or you could go to the high school camp.
00:10:08
Speaker
yeah yeah Yeah. A buddy and I were like the only ones who went to the high school camp. And I think you were, you didn't know anyone at the high school camp, probably other than a hundred percent me and that guy. one i Um, and we didn't really, I knew you after you ruined my life. Yeah. yeah So, but That would have been, um, yeah, that would have been it.
00:10:29
Speaker
And, um, yeah. And then you, your shorts in particular were so, oh like I could just, I was like, I don't know. i mean, I don't know why, but the camp was three days. The scent could come, was coming from your shorts.
00:10:42
Speaker
And I was like, i remember the aroma very clearly. It was like a three day camp, but you needed like 12 days worth of like clothes. So it's like, I don't know. Maybe that's my bad. I don't know.
00:10:54
Speaker
Crazy. You should have known. Whatever. Should have known. and's ah That's a funny first memory.
00:11:02
Speaker
I feel like kind of sets up your trajectory almost. Like you're a very... Do you really stink person? Kind of. No, like, no, you, Keegan. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Not Jesse. Jesse smells a lot better. Yeah, I just and i just i smell better, hopefully.
00:11:17
Speaker
He's got married and, you know, a lot since then. Glow on. But, like, i feel like uh you were never afraid to say what you thought about things that's why you mentioned it on ayaka's podcast i don't know if we're moving too fast and just you can back it really bad right i don't know no that's good uh you mentioned on ayaka's podcast calling out one of your friends for holding ah girl's hand in a picture yeah and it's funny ah so i was that friend there's a picture posted
00:11:51
Speaker
It was kind of a joke. um This girl that, you know, we weren't we weren't anything. it was kind of It was a joke. Maybe there something there, like, later, but at the time it was just funny.
00:12:02
Speaker
But Keegan did not think it was funny. And Keegan messaged me on Facebook. And actually, your exact words, I like that you censored it because I can't repeat it. Yeah, don't don't repeat that, please.
00:12:13
Speaker
But basically it was... bro you're being a a blank christian like blank is the censored word um yeah not my proudest moment i was also 14 probably so yeah see i and i honestly at that point i we we were going to small group for a couple months maybe i don't know i feel like we're we must have been pretty close because i i i don't know i i feel i feel that i probably wouldn't have said something as strong to someone I didn't know as well.
00:12:48
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. Well, that's why bla i think, you yeah. What's that? I said, well, you didn't know me. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yeah. was, I, I, I had a, um, doesn't matter yeah i was i had a um I was very, and I still am, I'm a very sco scrupulous person.
00:13:16
Speaker
And i have these very high expectations of how things ought to be and how pure and right things need to be And i think for me, I was very frustrated because I felt that as a 14-year-old, I really couldn't justify being in a relationship with a girl.
00:13:40
Speaker
And I was, that was something that was, I don't know, it's beyond me, but I wanted to be. And I liked talking to girls and hitting on girls. And I was still doing that, which was weird. And you know stringing girls along, texting them for for months on end with nothing ever happening.
00:13:57
Speaker
um But I didn't i didn't really, i don't know, I just very judgmental about about things. My mom actually told me about something recently I don't know if she's misremembering this, but I feel like I would remember this.
00:14:14
Speaker
But she recalled one time, and it would have been around this time when I was like 14 or 15, where the ministry team asked the student leaders to fast and pray for some conference we were going to attend or a camp or something that we were preparing to lead at.
00:14:32
Speaker
And she she was talking to me about this recently that She was very, I was very frustrated at how all the other student ministry leaders weren't really taking the ah fasting and the praying seriously. And I got, apparently I got so upset and spiraling during that time that I went out into the backyard and started throwing up just because I was so um frustrated and angry.
00:15:03
Speaker
i don't I don't really remember that, but I i wouldn't put it past me to kind of have a sort of moment like that where I was just really intensely um judgmental and and sort of ra rigid about ah standards.
00:15:22
Speaker
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, I mean, that is interesting. You've always been like a person of deep conviction, which like, as we follow your story, you've kind of ended up on like both sides of the spectrum, both theologically, philosophically, you know, philosophically, ministry-wise.
00:15:42
Speaker
I guess like going through high school, like with that conviction, how did that lead you to be like, okay, like I'm going to go to Bible college, like right after high school. What was that kind like?
00:15:54
Speaker
Yeah, I wasn't really intent on that. i I actually, that was, yeah, that was not in the cards at all. Actually, I have to correct myself there. When I was 14, I went to high school.
00:16:08
Speaker
First day, we had what's called CAPS. It was career academic planning. And first day, you know, you you get settled in homeroom. You guys wouldn't know this because your homeroom was your actual home.
00:16:21
Speaker
But there's this thing called homeroom, and that's sort of your base for all four years of high school. And um your homeroom... At the school I went to had this career class where you you talked about what you wanted to do in college and career.
00:16:36
Speaker
So first day it's what do you want to do when you're growing up, when you grow up? And I said I wanted to be a theologian. My homeschool homeroom teacher happened to be Christian, so she...
00:16:49
Speaker
was kind of taken aback by that. But, um, yeah, I was, I was sort of intent on that. And then throughout high school, i kind of had this like falling away. i don't know how to necessarily term it.
00:17:04
Speaker
Um, and then obviously started dating my girlfriend at 16, who I then got married to.
Theological Journey in College
00:17:12
Speaker
And, um, Yeah, what during high school, i wasn't really intent on going to Bible college. I wasn't really super...
00:17:21
Speaker
I was still very judgmental, but I wasn't necessarily serious about my faith. I was like skipping out of youth service and, you know, just getting into trouble, not doing my homework, whatever.
00:17:34
Speaker
um Yeah, it wasn't until the summer after high school that I decided to go to ah Bible college and pursue a career in pastoral ministry.
00:17:49
Speaker
So, I don't know how much you want to talk about that or get into details on that, but I'm curious. I'm always curious on all these podcasts, kind of like how they how people would describe like maybe what they would have called a calling then, you know, like a calling from God, like God is telling me to do this.
00:18:09
Speaker
So I was curious, like how you would characterize that for yourself. Yeah, I don't. You know, looking back, when I was you know in my early 20s, I would have called it a calling.
00:18:25
Speaker
Now, I think it's sort of just the summary of various syllogisms that led me to make the decisions in my life that led me to a certain trajectory and career and academics, whatever. um So, yeah, I mean, I basically...
00:18:46
Speaker
my then girlfriend and i were going to go to DC for a summer to hang out with her mom. And I'd just be there for you know three months before going to community college. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do.
00:19:01
Speaker
I thought I was actually going to do like athletic physical therapy i think that was the plan um but i bring a book with me from david platts radical and i remember reading it and feeling quite compelled by this discussion around how we interpret scripture and You know, it's it's so funny, like these narratives in my life are really easy for me to remember, but sort of ah ah like theological, philosophical points are really hard for me to remember and then reiterate, but ah he sort of says that
00:19:47
Speaker
you know, where we're very serious about interpreting certain things very literally, but then when it's things that we're uncomfortable with, we don't have the same type of interpretive scrutiny. So for example, I think the example he provides is you know, came ah you know i came to divide you know this narrative of like mother and daughter-in-law being sort of separated because of the the coming of the kingdom of god ah in the person of jesus and like well why would you why would you interpret that figuratively like doesn't didn't christ come to bring a sword you know
00:20:37
Speaker
And I remember reading that and being like, huh, maybe i haven't lived this really radical Christian life. And I know that the the right thing to do is to be Christian. And the highest calling a Christian can have is to be a pastor. So maybe I ought to like live radically for Christ and just go all in this.
00:21:04
Speaker
Jesus. And that was sort of the the initial calling, I guess. And like I said, it's more of like these sorts of um syllogisms rather than a you know, call narrative per se.
00:21:24
Speaker
that
00:21:29
Speaker
But in my early I always said like, oh, the Lord, I've read this book and I got called right then and there. It was, I I'm just very, I'm a very linear thinker, I guess in that sort of way. yeah
00:21:45
Speaker
I had another question just as it came up when you were talking about that. So it's interesting. Cause like all of all these people are on the podcast. like
00:21:55
Speaker
Typically the peak, uh, maybe not typically. a lot of them, the peak experience of Christianity or evangelicalism is like in high school.
00:22:05
Speaker
But it seems like for you, that was like the lowest point of like your like involvement. Yeah. Yeah. don't know. It's interesting. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I had this,
00:22:18
Speaker
sort of conversion moment, I think in eighth grade, ah where where I i read ah John 1 at a church service. I wasn't paying attention to the sermon, and the the pastor, he opened up with John 1, and I had never read that in my life.
00:22:39
Speaker
And ah I remember feeling just quite shocked. I thought this was just... otherworldly this discourse around light and the word and I felt compelled to sort of enter into that light and where there was life and no darkness or the darkness couldn't comprehend it um So I have this sort of conversion moment, my my early teens, and then, yeah, I don't know, I just got disillusioned with things and caught up in being a high schooler whatever, facing girls and attention, whatever. And yeah, I think 18, I sort of picked that back up, this radical decision to pursue education.
00:23:33
Speaker
uh bible college and pastoral ministry and that was yeah from then on it was just there i guess
00:23:43
Speaker
i think that's I guess pretty accurate because going into Bible college, that's like where my image of you is like mostly formed. That's where like we had the most kind of like interactions and that kind of deep conviction follows you into Bible college from that 18 to 20 to 23.
00:24:06
Speaker
And you kind of build this reputation of someone who is linear, ah critical thinker, um
00:24:16
Speaker
You know, so yeah you kind of had this like an image of just like never being in service, but always being yeah in the coffee shop. Yeah. I don't know. that's That's at least what I remember. And people would always go up to you like, hey, Keegan, like, what do you think about this? Is this right?
00:24:31
Speaker
You know, run this through you, which is, i guess, looking back is a pretty honorable, like, compliment. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny because as an evangelical, you know, I'm going to Bible college and I just thought I was smarter than everyone. And I thought that even, you know, when you had asked earlier how I, the the transition from Lutheranism to evangelicalism, I thought I was smarter than everyone when I was...
00:24:58
Speaker
12 years old going to the evangelical church. I was like, oh, I've been going to Christian private schools my whole life. And I've been memorizing scripture and I knew Lutheran theology really well. You know, when my brother got confirmed, they, they, um they ask you a series of theological questions and,
00:25:14
Speaker
um in front of the entire church and you have to answer them before you get confirmed to sort of affirm the the lutheran theology and my mom always tells the story about how i used to whisper the answers to her before someone could share the answer in front of the church because i it was just something that was i was really prideful about knowing i guess so and then i get to the evangelical church and i'm like oh these guys read the bible every day i don't know anything i don't know anything And then I get to Bible college and then I'm like, oh, I know more than these people.
00:25:47
Speaker
and And I didn't, I didn't really know more than these people. I was just maybe reading avant-garde theology and whatever, but you know, just typical Theo bro.
00:26:01
Speaker
um Yeah. I mean, it's just this series of being extremely overconfident in what I know and then finding out I i really didn't know much. um And yeah, so I mean, yeah, I would, we had obviously our church had have had a coffee shop, which my wife ran during the weekend services. And I notoriously, yeah, did not attend the services because I didn't feel like I would get anything out of 45 minute sermon preached by someone who I felt at the time knew less than me.
00:26:34
Speaker
So, you know, maybe i'll just like read a book or something or work on my homework or yeah um yeah but that was i remember you found out one of the youth ministries was uh leading one of the worship sets with new wine by hillsong and uh I remember you had just such a hill to die on with that song.
00:27:00
Speaker
Just like doctrinally just wasn't compatible. Didn't make sense. ah I don't know why that memory was like so clear to me. don't even remember what my argument was. I just thought the s song was dumb. I think a lot of the songs, I still think a lot of the songs are dumb.
00:27:16
Speaker
Even when I worked in Catholic campus ministry, I thought a lot of the songs we did were dumb and they were a lot of, you know, the, the typical contemporary worship hits in the evangelical space that the the kids happen to listen to on Spotify or whatever. I hated all of it, though.
00:27:33
Speaker
have but I don't know. I think that's just more of a personality thing than a theology thing. I probably did have something to say about New Wine. I can't remember, though.
00:27:47
Speaker
and know you brought up David Platt, who is a well-known Reformed author. Were you Reformed throughout volleyball college, just a portion of it? Or like, what was that kind of journey? Yeah, i I think, you know, coming from the Lutheran world, I had some of those reformation tendencies.
00:28:07
Speaker
um And then i think with the the Young Restless Reformed movement championed by, you know, folks like Driscoll and Platt, Matt Chandler and others, I sort of got caught up in that when I was younger, and those messages resonated with me at a fairly young age, at like 13 or 14, as this ah sort of disillused disillusioned teenager.
00:28:37
Speaker
And so I guess when I first started Bible college, you know, I was kind of getting serious about my faith again. So it was sort of picking up from where I left off when I was 13 and 14. So, um you know, Driscoll, Piper, all of them. And then I quickly realized ah that I didn't really like it anymore. And it didn't really make sense anymore, specifically because ah the idea around predestination, um limited atonement, those types of things. And it was just like, well, that doesn't really make sense. And I didn't really even want to believe it. So it's just like, ah, okay, I'm going to just abandon that.
00:29:17
Speaker
And then I probably went like overboard into the open theism, sort of, you know, Clark Pinnock, Greg Boyd type of camp. And then then kind of just chilled out on that.
00:29:29
Speaker
um So I kind of, I went through ah a number of different theological camps, I think. um And even in when I went to divinity school in the mainland, I was trying to find a home, thought I would do, i tried out Methodism.
00:29:44
Speaker
I really thought I was going to be Mennonite and then ended up just becoming Catholic. Sorry, I'm going to backtrack a little bit because I realized I...
00:29:57
Speaker
I don't know, I don't feel like I understand, like, so it like when you like your disillusionment started, like, at the beginning of high school, do you was there any?
00:30:08
Speaker
No, I was wondering, like, do you know, what, like, spurred that? Like, where did that come from? you have any idea? Yeah, I don't know. i just i think it just goes back to that sort of ridiculous kind of expectation of how things ought to be.
00:30:29
Speaker
And I think the Reformed movement of the late 2000s provided a very strong framework of thinking and theology that I could attach myself to and while sort of the the charismatic evangelical church that we were a part of and that sort of movement that's happening kind of parallel with the young restless reformed type of thing didn't really provide that structure so i think um i just appreciate dogma a little more i think so um and i felt like yeah there was something being clearly articulated that i could um devote myself to a bit more
00:31:15
Speaker
you know light machines, smoke machines, and all of that. i Jumping and clapping, it just didn't make sense to me. um like I felt like you needed this real, authentic relationship with with Christ, and you know to feel really sorry for yourself and take sin very seriously.
00:31:34
Speaker
You do, but I mean, I don't know. You don't have to be a little twerp about it.
00:31:47
Speaker
I mean so it seems like you are always like in that kind of evangelical like period you're in it but you were never really like a part of it you never really subscribed to it you always kind of had that tension from the beginning like something feels off or insincere um or disingenuine would you kind of Yeah, I always felt like I was a bit of a black sheep. I always felt that I had kind of piecemealed my theology in some way.
00:32:22
Speaker
um Like I liked a ah Lutheran Eucharistic theology, but I liked a sort of like Calvinist view of scripture while holding like a charismatic view of pneumatology or something like that. You know, like I was very, I just kind of like, but I i felt like I couldn't really fit into a particular type of um Protestantism too well. no All of it resonated with me to some extent, but I couldn't necessarily align myself with it completely.
00:33:03
Speaker
so do you think like i guess today do you think that that's important to have like this unified theology like is there a problem in your mind to like unite different traditions or like
00:33:18
Speaker
well i'm a roman catholic now so i mean like there's there is a theological tradition um and an authoritative teaching um I guess what I mean is like, yeah I know you're you're Catholic.
00:33:36
Speaker
You have to like remind us every like five minutes. Just kidding. Like, ah but i guess just like in concept, like, is it ah a deep is there a problem for you like that you had to like bring in all these different types of ideas?
00:33:58
Speaker
I mean, I guess in a way, i was sort of practicing becoming Catholic because I think in in some way, like ah in Catholicism, you know, the it it kind of, don't know, I want to precise, but basically it respects and maybe even like not accepts, but admires and practices the different traditions of um other traditions.
00:34:36
Speaker
You know, for example, I guess to be more concrete, like, for example, charismatic Christianity, which has emerges which emerges in the early 20th century with the Azusa Street Revival, the Catholic Church,
00:34:47
Speaker
um recognizes this sort of charismatic movement happening and then tries to ah adapt it to adapt it to Catholicism in the 60s.
00:34:58
Speaker
um And they have all these meetings with cardinals to talk about it. Like, how does this work? How does this sort of jive with the magisterium, the teaching office of the church?
00:35:12
Speaker
Like, how do we do that? And, um you know, they did that. um And it it was, you know, they had to deal with the things of like the language around the baptism of the Holy Spirit or whatever. So it's remaining sort of like open to these traditions without necessarily co-opting the entire belief system, if that makes sense. Like, you know, we'll be like speaking in tongues or whatever, but not necessarily like...
00:35:37
Speaker
um there's this subsequent baptism of the holy spirit that has to occur in order for you to receive the gift of the holy spirit like no that doesn't really jive with theology
00:35:54
Speaker
and so you you kind of have like that fragmented like piecemeal theology you were talking about going through bible college but at the same time like with the the fragmented kind of thinking you're still like moving forward in your like ministry journey I know you started heavily getting involved with the young adults ministry um maybe more on like the youth ministry side what was kind of going on like
00:36:27
Speaker
with you there getting more involved. Yeah, I when married, my wife and I, we felt that we needed to get plugged back in and to sort of plant ourselves in church and in doing ministry because that's where we, that's sort of all we knew and that's where we knew we were going to grow. So we wanted to do something together. So I think young adult ministry sort of made sense at that point because we were, got married at the age of 18 and then or transitioning out of high school. So um young adult ministry made sense.
00:37:01
Speaker
And I think it was just our attempt to stay planted and to stay plugged in because we both had this tendency to sort of draw away.
00:37:14
Speaker
um And we knew that wasn't necessarily good for us.
00:37:21
Speaker
Hmm.
00:37:24
Speaker
I mean, and this is already pretty fascinating because most of the time, like that religious momentum and like energy kind fades, like kind of what Keala was mentioning, like after high school, people graduate, you know, they go to college, um think through different worldviews.
00:37:42
Speaker
ah You not only go to Bible college, you further your theological education, but you take one more radical step and you decide, hey I want to get my master's in.
00:37:56
Speaker
in theology what what is that like extra step what's what's going on there you know um my dream was always to become the teaching pastor at at the church we grew up in that was always my dream um I wanted to preach and I wanted to teach theology.
Pursuing Theology Further
00:38:15
Speaker
And so I, ah you know, I was going to the young adult ministry, but I wasn't going to church because I just didn't really feel like I needed to. I wasn't really getting anything out of it. So I ended up getting passed up for becoming the young adult pastor.
00:38:31
Speaker
And it was at that moment where I'm just like, I'm going to become someone that's sort of undeniable that um you would have to consider, like, making a part of our church.
00:38:49
Speaker
And... um Yeah, i just felt so alone during that time. I remember even when we graduated, because I think you and I graduated the same year in 2019, remember this pretty vividly that um it was sort of the tradition that all the graduates would stand at the front of the church and your pastor would come up and pray for you.
00:39:15
Speaker
And I remember that no one prayed for me. No one like stood there and laid their hand on me. And I was just like, um, I'm going to come back here and I'm going to just be undeniable and be someone that, um, but I wanted to serve and I wanted to be someone who, um, just brought back that knowledge, uh, to, to our community.
00:39:43
Speaker
And, um, Yeah, that was, uh, that not getting the the job and then kind of getting like put on the back burner, uh, was kind of the catalyst for me to like, all right, we're moving on.
00:39:58
Speaker
And, uh, yeah.
00:40:05
Speaker
Would you say that was, uh, that a pivotal moment in your, um,
00:40:12
Speaker
want to say the disdain. Maybe that's not the right word. Maybe like you're disconnecting from the evangelical church. like I don't know. if you i don't know Just from listening to you say that, it sounds like it was ah like a big deal. i don't i don't really When you were at Duke, you weren't ah attending Yeah, was attending a bunch of churches. I mean, I literally attended every church in town, I think, which was kind of wild. Like, I went to, like, an emergent church.
00:40:43
Speaker
Methodist church, ah Baptist church, evangelical church, um Mennonite, Episcopal. I mean, i i really wanted to see if anything resonated with me. I remember, you know, at the time it was very, ah there's a lot of, and mean, it's a very hyper-political environment for sure. um being a duke and sort of going to ah ah divinity school that is um um predominantly like a mainline protestant that was the other thing i didn't even know i was evangelical till i went to duke that was that was kind of weird like i i remember i knew what the word evangelical was but i didn't um i remember um telling a girl
00:41:35
Speaker
who is methodist like oh yeah i go to like a this kind of church it's sort of like a hill song and she's like oh you're evangelical i'm like yeah aren't we all evangelical like i didn't realize that evangelicalism was its own sort of niche if that makes sense you know i thought like it's very strange um yeah so yeah i just kind of exposed myself to all those different traditions
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, I guess looking back, do forget that like you were for frontrunner candidate and probably the most qualified like to get that young adult's position.
00:42:19
Speaker
And I completely like forgot that. do you Looking back, were you able to objectively separate like the personal digs against you and like the doctrine of the church? Or did both did you find yourself kind of like...
00:42:38
Speaker
seeing those two kind of like get meshed together to kind of like have this cynicism in a way yeah i mean i guess there were a lot of rumors about like what i believed that kind of put me on the outs uh particularly around hell i think there was a rumor that i didn't believe in hell and that i was a universalist and all that kind of stuff but it's like no one asked me so um you know um I don't know.
00:43:03
Speaker
um i did question a lot of different things. I remember the the person who ended up leaving the young adult ministry who I thought I'd be taking over for. I remember they preached on penal substitutionary atonement, and challenged that pretty strongly. i was that was That was something I really had a big hang up on.
00:43:28
Speaker
and Yeah, I don't know. um It was kind of both and. I think there was this disconnect between me and sort of the powers that be. I always sort of felt that I was on the out.
00:43:41
Speaker
But um that also encompassed my constantly challenging the um practices and theology.
00:43:52
Speaker
um that came up, whether it was in Bible college, in the chapels, or in classrooms, or or um at church, in sermons and certain beliefs and practices that took place in the ah liturgical context.
00:44:12
Speaker
Hmm.
00:44:17
Speaker
And you kind of you're you're at Duke, which is kind of funny. You you go from a very conservative evangelical church to... I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, one the most well-known liberal universities. yeah ah Theologically speaking, it has a reputation of sort of being in the middle.
00:44:36
Speaker
I would say the students ah lean ah pretty heavily liberal. And I think a lot of the professors are too, obviously, but I think it's, it's, it's has a tradition of being fairly moderate, but,
00:44:53
Speaker
to me coming into it it, it might as well have been the Democratic National Convention or something. you know it was It was extremely liberal to me um coming into it.
00:45:07
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, that was that was something, but that was intentional. i felt that um I felt like the professors at Duke were able to sort of wed um social justice and theology in a way that was coherent to me at the time um folks like you know douglas campbell stanley harrowas you know i felt like i had this tradition of of doing that work um so it made sense to me at the time
00:45:41
Speaker
and is this like the image of the hero's journey kind of like arising well where like your you know,
00:45:53
Speaker
study at Duke, did you feel like that was going to give you the credentials needed? Yeah. This was going to make me undeniably one most qualified. I mean, I thought I would go and the do a PhD too, but I was like, yeah, i mean um I remember speaking to a mentor at the Bible college who who is not affiliated with our church, and I remember him telling me, like go to the school with the best name.
00:46:13
Speaker
like Just like go go to the best school you possibly can. um Go abroad if you have to, like figure it out. And I'm like... bet like i'll do it okay um yeah that was that was that was the intention as well um you know and um yeah i definitely could have gone the evangelical seminary route but chose not to
00:46:40
Speaker
where did that intention kind of change in the story as far as like returning to hoy or
00:46:48
Speaker
Or like going to Duke, I'm going to be somebody ah going to the best school. Does that intention change? Yeah. I mean, i we always intended on coming back to Hawaii and, um,
00:47:01
Speaker
and it And, you know, looking back on it now, it's because it's all we knew. It was how do we get back home and maybe we'll have that sort of a dissiest moment of going back home.
00:47:13
Speaker
um But, you know, that was that was sort of it. And. It pretty much that sort of fracture happened when I became Catholic and I realized that, okay, everything's got to change now. Everything's going to change now. And the that dreams and the trajectory that I had laid out for my own life is is going to change. You're not going to become a teaching pastor. You're not going to plant a church. like um You're going to be a Catholic lay person for the rest of your life.
00:47:49
Speaker
Okay. Which is funny because Keegan thought adult Keegan was going to be going to hell with Catholic, which is the ironic part. so Yeah, definitely. um Yeah, I don't know.
00:48:01
Speaker
And it's so funny because I was developing these sort of Catholic catholic sensibilities in ah Bible college in undergrad. I was reading um you know biographies on St. Francis of Assisi. I was reading Catholic mystical writings, like St. John the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila. I was reading those even in Bible college.
00:48:24
Speaker
But um it was just kind of like the... theological aesthetics that resonated with me at the time and the sort of mysticism around it, that that was my interest and that was sort of limited to that and I didn't really see ah ah myself becoming Catholic.
00:48:42
Speaker
Although I did attend an Easter Mass ah during that time just because I felt like whatever Easter service we were going to have at our church was not going to resonate with me at all. So I figured I should just go to something that just shocks me.
00:48:57
Speaker
And I ended up going to this Easter mass in downtown Honolulu.
00:49:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think so. i I mean, I had no idea what was happening. So that was, yeah, I guess so. And but I still remember the homily, which is kind of um shocking.
00:49:20
Speaker
too to me now. I remember it had to do sort of recalling Ash Wednesday, recalling the message of death and mortality and then being confronted by the resurrection. like it was I still remember that. and i you know Yeah.
00:49:40
Speaker
Maybe there's some reason for that. I don't know.
00:49:47
Speaker
Nice. Are we caught to present day then? I don't know. um Maybe. Not really.
00:49:55
Speaker
What are we missing? So you have this experience that do... Of convert... Yeah. Coming into the Catholic Church. Yeah. Yeah. i guess yeah weather and that was um that was motivated by a lot of things and that was mostly sort of like this feel a lot philosophical philosophical and theological sort of conviction that again kind of compelled me to catholicism anyway i mean and there were some there was a lot of spiritual stuff happening behind the scenes as well um
00:50:29
Speaker
you know, I always say that the the whole is greater than the sum of its individual parts, and that's especially the case for this for that kind of conversion experience.
00:50:50
Speaker
Looking back on everything, is there one individual thing you can think of in the evangelical church that they do well in or like their their greatest gift to
00:51:07
Speaker
You know, I mean, i think the strong reverence for the scripture, I think it's misplaced, but I think it's ultimately what led me to become Catholic.
00:51:17
Speaker
I had such a high view of the scriptures, and I felt that learning the scriptures was the most important work one could devote themselves to.
00:51:29
Speaker
And it was precisely the pursuit of that work that led me to becoming Catholic because I realized that the hermeneutics of evangelicalism were just, ah it didn't really make sense. I mean, sola scriptura doesn't really make sense. um It's pretty illogical and sort of ahistorical. It's just, it doesn't work.
00:51:52
Speaker
um So that's, yeah, I mean, that reverence for scripture is ultimately what led to me becoming Catholic.
00:52:02
Speaker
And I think it's equipped me to become a better Catholic. I mean, it's like you go into a mass and you don't realize, ah Catholics, cradle Catholics, they don't realize how scripturally dense the mass is because they don't they have no exposure to it whatsoever.
00:52:18
Speaker
You know, the scriptures, like um there's this, when during the literature of the Eucharist, when the Eucharist is consecrated, um there's a response that the the church says where where we all respond,
00:52:31
Speaker
Like, um Lord, I'm not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the words, of my soul shall be healed. Obviously, you guys know what that is. You know, that is the centurion um who who who asks for his servant to be healed.
00:52:48
Speaker
um But i don't I don't think the average Catholic would know that.
00:52:54
Speaker
Whoa, is that a critique of the Catholic Church? Yeah, I mean, that's ah that's a pretty common critique, I think. I think Catholics, like, yeah most sort of high church traditions are are pretty, like, scripturally illiterate.
00:53:07
Speaker
ah But that's just because they're and not necessarily... There's not a strong tradition around reading the scriptures on your own, that kind of thing. um there There were some attempts to change that in Vatican II, but...
00:53:23
Speaker
I think the fruit of that work still needs to be kind of sought out even now.
00:53:47
Speaker
I mean, looking back, would you change anything about your journey or would you like tell old Keegan? anything different to change or do you think it all kind of worked out the way it needed to i mean um
00:54:02
Speaker
i'm really thankful that i'm catholic like i really am um it brings me a lot of joy um that uh you know um
00:54:18
Speaker
And whatever leads me to that, whatever led me to that, ultimately, I'm very grateful for. i think that's that's kind of where I'm at. um Yeah, I mean, um ah maybe there are there are some things I wish I did differently.
00:54:38
Speaker
um yeah i wish i was more humble humble, and I wish I was um
00:54:46
Speaker
I prayed more, read scripture more, or whatever. um But ultimately, like the sort of spirituality spirituality that it developed in the evangelical charismatic world ironically led me to Catholicism, which is kind of odd.
00:55:06
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. yeah
00:55:14
Speaker
Yeah. Do you think it's a like, you have, would you say concisely or, like, specifically, like, what Catholicism does for you that, like, evangelicalism didn't do?
00:55:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think, um, I was looking for answers in evangelicalism, and I felt like
00:55:41
Speaker
I wanted to be able to plant my feet on the ground. And I couldn't do that for the longest time. I might have told this story before on the podcast, but there was this time where ah the person who ended up taking the role of the young adult pastor in place of me, ah him and I were planning a sort of a doctrine course for new believers.
00:56:09
Speaker
And we all get together and we are like, what are we going to start with? And we're like, let's start with um baptism. We spent literally two hours trying to discern what baptism meant and what it achieved.
00:56:32
Speaker
I'm, you know, it's like, it's something so fundamental, you know, um it's throughout the the New Testament um to to to baptize, you know, it's the Great Commission.
00:56:47
Speaker
ah But we couldn't articulate that. we couldn't articulate what it accomplished if it did accomplish anything or if it was purely symbolic and i think that's that's like one of the main things is that um i'm able to tap into this tradition of 2,000 years of history, you know, and um tap into something that's much bigger than me. I felt like I was having to try and figure out everything on my own, you know, like, what does baptism mean? Why do bad things happen to good people? It's like, well, we've been talking about this since the beginning, but I just didn't really know that because I, you know, hadn't read Augustine or Aquinas or Anselm of Canterbury, whatever, you know, like, I just didn't do that.
00:57:42
Speaker
Um, and or it's that I, I tried to read them and I was just like, yeah, but their Eucharistic theology is weird. Or like, yeah, but like I had to sort of like take St. Thomas Aquinas, um, like kind of piecemeal his theology to contour it to my own beliefs. I'm like, what are we doing here?
00:58:03
Speaker
You know?
00:58:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, like, that deep conviction from middle school, high school followed you all the way through. And I guess, like, your search for coherency has led you to Catholicism and has been, like, the most fulfilling to you because it has made the most sense just historically, philosophically.
00:58:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, obviously, the sacramental life of the church is quite compelling and transformational, you know, I think that, that, you know, that's like, huge, you know, like, going to confession for the first time or receiving the Eucharist for the first time, it's like,
00:58:53
Speaker
um those are transformational things. You're encountering a real grace and you can point to this real thing happening, Christ really intersecting with your life in this very concrete way where it's like, they I remember just, I was, I'm so, like, I'm so scrupulous that I just dealt with guilt for so long and there was just no real, like, finality to forgiveness. It was always just like,
00:59:21
Speaker
I was constantly facing condemnation. think that was really psychologically pretty relieving, perhaps. um Yeah.
00:59:38
Speaker
right
00:59:42
Speaker
So do you have any issues with... Say someone like Jesse taking...
00:59:49
Speaker
taking So like, I guess, I don't know. I don't know if I necessarily consider myself evangelical, but I attend, you know, an evangelical church, same one as Jesse.
01:00:02
Speaker
But would you have an issue with Jesse or I like kind of taking and like being influenced by like Catholic theology or Catholic ideas and not accepting the whole?
01:00:13
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. i I always had a bit of an ax to grind with ah specifically Episcopals. I always noticed that with Episcopals at the Divinity School, that they would always sort of term themselves as like Anglo-Catholics. And basically what I took that as was like, I want all the aesthetics of Catholicism. I want all the grace of the sacraments, but I don't want to submit.
01:00:36
Speaker
I don't want to submit to authority. I'm too too good for that. That's how I always at least interpreted it. And that's you know that's not very fair, but that's what I did. um i don't know i think it kind of starts there you know i think it starts there that's how i it started for me with the mystical tradition of the church i i strongly gravitated towards the the uh um the mystics uh and and then um you know for example okay so like this is how it all kind of started for me i i had a catholic friend i was interested in catholicism
01:01:13
Speaker
um at the Divinity School. And I was kind of just going through this, like, mental health crisis. You know, it was mid-COVID. I just felt like I was going insane. You know stress of grad school would not let up. Meanwhile, there's a global pandemic, whatever.
01:01:29
Speaker
And I felt like I was just having this mental crisis. And I i sort of, kind I was looking into saints who ah
01:01:39
Speaker
might have, like, had this same sort of, like, Michael Morehead, think that's a great question. think that's great question. think that's great question. think that's a great question.
01:01:53
Speaker
I think that's a none in france um and she I wrote this ah autobiography called Story of a Soul, it's which ultimately led her to become a doctor of the church, someone who who's professing theology for the church, which if you read the book, it's bizarre that you would say that this woman is like...
01:02:24
Speaker
Irenaeus, Aquinas, Augustine, and then this girl who's writing about how she's a princess and daddy god theology type of writing. It's it's very strange.
01:02:35
Speaker
um But I felt like I had this sort of encounter um with God through her intercession. And I felt this overwhelming reality that the saints were around me, surrounding.
01:02:54
Speaker
and were in my corner praying for me. And um ah I talked about that. I sort of debriefed that experience with a a Catholic ah friend afterward.
01:03:10
Speaker
And they were like, you know, that's really cool. um
01:03:16
Speaker
what do you think like basically like that's our saint you know it's a catholic saint wouldn't you expect her to be leading you towards the truth the you know the fullness of truth in the catholic church and i was kind of like taken aback by that and i'm like yeah i guess so like her tradition you know she was a carmelite nun um So I think it was those sorts of experiences by that that I kind of picked and chose at in in in Catholicism that ultimately led me to become Catholic. I realized that um this just made sense.
01:03:58
Speaker
And then the parts that didn't make sense, I sort of had to submit to God and hope that he would put the pieces together for me later. Yeah.
01:04:11
Speaker
I think particularly the Marian dogmas um around the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary, um those were those were quite problematic for me.
01:04:23
Speaker
And, you know, um even like the ever virginity of Mary, that was problematic for me. um Then I sort of realized historically, theologically, it's the only thing that made sense.
01:04:41
Speaker
um I guess that's one thing.
01:04:46
Speaker
This is like, I'm probably going to sound, I am ignorant to like all the like, false and but like one thing based on our like our conversations, something that I would have a hang up with.
01:05:03
Speaker
and And I, um maybe that's why I like, uh, evangelicalism or whatever my version of this is uh is because i there's this kind of freedom to there's like core there's core uh things we have to believe and there are things that are not core that you know you can have there's a big range like ah maybe a wider range of opinions on that you're you can have and still be a christian and it seems like in catholicism it's that range is a lot smaller and like there's there's things i think are strange like what you just mentioned there's other things you know um uh and that
01:05:48
Speaker
if I were decide, if anyone were to decide to be Catholic, you know, you have to take those as well. Yeah. I think that, that was something I noticed pretty early on after being received into the church was that a lot of Catholics don't believe all of it.
01:06:01
Speaker
You know, um, you know, I've met like pro-choice Catholics. I've met gay Catholics, you know, i um, like, um, that was interesting to me. But what I, what I quickly realized was that for the converts, you know,
01:06:18
Speaker
We had to scrutinize everything. um in the tradition and ultimately accept all of it you know when you get confirmed you say that you you're you're you profess in front of the entire church that i believe that what the catholic church teaches ah is received from god you you know yeah that's that's that's the that's what a confirmation is that's what consists of i mean it's more than that but whatever i mean that's like your part in the confirmation um
01:06:53
Speaker
And there's more to it. But you say that and um you affirm that. And that's a pretty radical step. Credo Catholics, though, a lot of them don't even get confirmed. and And then some of them do, but they just did it because, you know, their parents made them go to the catechesis and that sort of thing.
01:07:11
Speaker
It's kind of like how baptism works in the evangelical church. Sometimes it's just like, well, we believe in believer's baptism, but... it's time to get baptized johnny or whatever you know so um yeah that's that is that is kind of the difference like oh there's you'll meet catholics who who believe everything that things that you know there's some ridiculous percentage of catholics who don't believe in the real presence of christ in the eucharist you're you're You're not, you know, it's like you've strayed from the path, if you believe that, unfortunately, because that's kind of the whole thing.
01:07:49
Speaker
ah The Eucharist, the Mass, it's the source and summit of the Catholic faith. Yeah. ah yeah So it is it's kind of a it's kind of a jarring thing to sort of just like submit to this entirely different belief system in all of its teachings.
01:08:11
Speaker
um But I think there's a lot of peace in that because... it's It comes down to how you define freedom, right? I mean, that was something I would talk to my students in campus ministry about often.
01:08:28
Speaker
It's like, how do you define freedom? And, you know, they're intellectual, you know, Duke students, you know, they're they're saying stuff like, oh, it's my ability to move unhindered in the world and whatever, rights language, whatever.
01:08:46
Speaker
And it's like freedom is the ability to choose the good. In a sense, it's to be bound by the good, right? um So folks who think they're free i you know, believing whatever they want and choosing to do whatever they want, um they aren't really free because they don't they're not choosing the good. They're not bound to the good. They don't even have that ability to choose the good.
01:09:20
Speaker
you know They're bound to something else.
01:09:30
Speaker
Hmm.
01:09:39
Speaker
yeah I mean just kind of like thinking on it like you
01:09:44
Speaker
followed like you didn't like live with like that dichotomy like you followed like your convictions to where you are now which is like I feel like a lot of us like are afraid of that in a way to like confront that reality um but I think you're one of the few to like follow your convictions that were well thought out to the most coherent conclusion, which for you was Catholicism, which i guess has built like a good framework. Cause I mean, there were things like, I didn't know that you were talking about that I didn't get updated on, which is like so good hearing.
01:10:24
Speaker
um And now that we're kind of like up to speed, I think, I think Keala had a few questions like on the post side of things. yeah to kind of hurry real quick because we can do this i need to pee i can just edit this part out later it's fine we'll just leave it running okay i'm gonna get water i can just oh do you oh great oh do you have your questions ready because i kind of gassed you up with uh cal has got some sick questions i got some good ones uh will you eat what did you have for breakfast i didn't eat do you anything
01:11:06
Speaker
Okay, well, here's the first here's the first question. um This is the me and my wife, Alana, are fervent listeners.
01:11:18
Speaker
We listen to every podcast. And ah big fans. So I was asking her, do you have any questions? And she had a bunch of questions. We kind of narrowed it down.
01:11:30
Speaker
But ah i And something we talked about, but I was kind of wondering if you given any more thought, like, uh, I guess what is, what do you think you're trying to get out of this podcast with these with all of our friends? Yeah, I don't know.
01:11:45
Speaker
um i think it's it's sort of like a personal thing that i I've always wanted to do some sort of like projects that I can throw creativity into and ah be able to talk to folks. It's something I've just always wanted to do.
01:12:01
Speaker
And the concept kind of came up just on a whim with my ah ah texting conversation with Kama. But, yeah, no, I don't know if there's necessarily anything I want to accomplish. I was actually talking to my boss about it today because ah he's probably listening. So shout out to him.
01:12:20
Speaker
ah um like I'm like, man, I'm just so surprised whenever someone from outside of our community like listens to it and enjoys it because it's sort of, I mean, really, only i only expect like 30 to 50 people to actually resonate with the guests I have on and the conversations that we have. like It's really meant for those folks, I guess, in some way to kind of chronicle that story.
01:12:48
Speaker
But I think at the same time, there's this um kind of golden rule that i have that we don't use any like proper nouns around anything.
01:12:59
Speaker
um And I think one of the reasons for that, other than just like, I don't want to get, I don't want it to be the like, you know, bagging on XYZ church, whatever, um is that...
01:13:15
Speaker
this story, these stories are universal to some extent. um You know, we like, anyone who grew up in that sort of evangelical cultural milieu of the late 2000s, early 2010s, they all had that friend who was the Theobro, I guess me.
01:13:38
Speaker
ah They all had that friend who was sort of the like the outcast, someone like Nalu. um There was always that person in the closet, someone like Kama. um There was...
01:13:50
Speaker
you know, that this person who became someone of a token testimony that we always kind of um commodified and exploited.
01:14:01
Speaker
And I think that's someone like Shani. ah I think if you go to any church in in America or even abroad, I mean, that's what Ayaka and I were talking about, how that sort of template of evangelicalism got just copy pasted everywhere.
01:14:16
Speaker
um I think people will find that those stories are um universal sort of archetypes in evangelicalism. um
01:14:31
Speaker
and And I am just kind of curious about like what happened, where are you at. um There's been some really intimidating ones for me. I think meeting with Britt and Ayaka and Nalu, those ones are really hard because it's like I haven't spoken to you guys in like 10 years. I don't know where you are. I don't know what you believe.
01:14:49
Speaker
um those were Those were challenging ones to do. um Not because they're like confrontational or whatever. They're so nice. Like IACO was so gracious. Nali was so gracious.
01:15:01
Speaker
ah Britt was awesome and super vulnerable. And it was great. um But yeah, it was just like that that sort of distance was complex to navigate.
01:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
01:15:20
Speaker
So there's kind of like archetypes you were talking about and like characters in a cast in a way in a story that's being written. do you think like those are just natural byproducts of every evangelical, I want to say system, but um do you think those are just like natural byproducts or those like unique?
01:15:41
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I think obviously...
01:15:46
Speaker
um I think the three of us know that there are are certain stories that could have only existed in the church that we grew up in. the The context, the cultural context, the belief systems, the values um that were firmly located in that church.
01:16:06
Speaker
However, I do think there are just going to be those cases of whatever, that token testimony, that gay kid in the closet, you know, that is just sort of a reality of evangelical churches, churches in general, you know?
01:16:25
Speaker
um And those stories are sort of universal.
01:16:31
Speaker
So yeah, both, I guess.
01:16:34
Speaker
me
01:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think that kind of segues into my next question, which is like, ah this is the one um maybe like, most curious about and it's so i like i'm one of the people that has like pointed out to you like oh it seems like you have you have this kind of opinion of the evangelical church that leaks out here and there like quinn's podcast it was really obvious that you didn't yeah i i mean yeah you didn't like it you know and it leaks out and so it's good that we have this opportunity for you to like i guess put it out there you know i guess that was my my question is like so see it seems like
01:17:15
Speaker
you don't like the evangelical church. And we've talked about it like privately a lot, but ah do you think that evangelicalism can be separated from the kinds of toxicity?
01:17:30
Speaker
I think you've used that word, those words, that word to describe it. ah And with Ayaka, you're talking about like, it has this like franchise like quality to it. Like it's reproducible on all these different places. and ah all of those things that like maybe we associate with it, do you think that that's, is that fundamental to even like... Yeah, and real quick, with Quinn's one, I do feel, i i apologized actually on Instagram after that one just because I felt like I went in pretty hard.
01:18:05
Speaker
um you know My family, we were we were down there for Quinn's wedding and my family, we got to just debriefed it the day after everyone got to listen to it and they were like... you know, cause we were like drinking wine before whatever we were hanging out, having a dinner. So it was like, we're, we're, you know, we're, we're transitioning from that into recording a podcast.
01:18:22
Speaker
And, um, ah we all, it was honestly pretty emotional for all of us to, to kind of relive all those moments.
Critique of Evangelical Practices
01:18:30
Speaker
Cause, um, yeah, my brother got wrong, um, big time. And I've always held a gripe, uh, against, um, that particular church and those leaders.
01:18:40
Speaker
Um, and, um, yeah, I've always been very frustrated. Um, and I think I kind of just like bled on the crowd a little bit too much.
01:18:51
Speaker
Um, but, um, Yeah, I think...
01:19:01
Speaker
I don't know. i don't really know. i don't really know if you can separate this sort of...
01:19:10
Speaker
You know, I don't know. ah there's There's a lot of scholars who have sort of explored that um idea of, like, what is this thing? What are the sort of values, practices, belief of evangelicalism? ah And what are they informed by? What are they, and how are those, you know, how do those come out?
01:19:36
Speaker
um And I don't know. I mean... I think there are a lot of things that are just part and parcel with it, um particularly... yeah I mean, there's some fundamental things that are problematic, right? I think ah particularly around Sola Scriptura, right?
01:19:57
Speaker
You know, you you have... yeah you have this idea that scripture is authoritative and even like the sole authority of the Christian faith, but that doesn't really work um because then it becomes like whose interpretation of that scripture is authoritative, you know, which is what we all saw. And I think that's sort of how Protestantism is defined is that, you know, it's like all these different people's interpretation of scripture, whether it be Mark Luther or,
01:20:31
Speaker
ah John Wesley or John Calvin or Amy Semple McPherson, William J. Seymour, whoever. you know ah that's so so then i mean churches become these sorts of cults of personality you know the pastor's interpretation it's so it's such and such pastor's interpretation of you know john 6 or romans 15 or these really like theologically and ethically and politically dense chapters um and it's sort of just subject to our own kind of uh
01:21:10
Speaker
political ethical moral beliefs um and you see that in conservative evangelicalism it's like uh it's so comfortable sitting in a american republican um view, ah you know, which is, for me, it's, like, problematic. And it's not to say that I'm, like, extremely liberal. I'm just, like, I don't want my religion to sort of fit so comfortably in a political identity, you know?
01:21:42
Speaker
um So that's, it's, like, that's where I saw evangelicalism going when I was in divinity school. It's, like, in 50 years, you are going to be, like, super ardent like right wing conservative, or you're gonna be like extremely woke, progressive um identity politics, whatever. And it's gonna be like extreme, like pushing to the extreme, extreme.
01:22:10
Speaker
And I think we're already seeing that, you know, like five years later. um So, yeah, I think i think so there's some things fundamentally that are problematic. And then, of course, in charismatic Christianity, I think it sort of plays into that cult of personality. Again, it's whoever's most gifted that gets platformed um rather than, you know, who is most...
01:22:32
Speaker
devoted to the person of Jesus Christ. And I mean, who who's who am I to judge that? But, you know, it was like when we were in Bible college and they'd let a freshman first week speak at chapel. And I was like, what the fuck are we doing here? We're going to let this like person who just got here probably like just became Christian and having this existential crisis that they need to become a pastor. like They're going to preach the first week. like What are we doing?
01:22:55
Speaker
This is ridiculous. um But I think that is... You know, that's just, I shouldn't say that's, like, indicative of Pentecostalism, but I think it has those tendencies to platform people um because of gifts, you know.
01:23:14
Speaker
And you saw these, like, really weird characters, especially in Bible college, who it was just, like, the gift kind of, like... defined their entire personality and they sort of saw themselves to be something more than they really were and okay well this is my last question and um
01:23:43
Speaker
i think i think it's kind of been alluded to you but i mean i was curious like so i know that you're like in general like you'd say that you're hurt by like what happened to Quinn, but like, are are you angry or hurt like at large by like your experiences with the evangelical church or bitter maybe?
01:24:05
Speaker
was just kind of curious if you would say that. Um, yeah. It's not the first thing that I would think of. I mean, if someone lives to this in that sort of circle, you know, who's still there, they're probably going to think that, and that's fair. And there there are, like, certainly some wounds.
01:24:23
Speaker
um I definitely did feel like an outcast. I definitely felt like no one really had my back. um I felt like I was being overlooked. But at the same time, I was kind of a problematic person. I just didn't like going to church, and i didn't like,
01:24:39
Speaker
um and i like challenging people a lot and um so i just i just don't think i was really a good fit um i i think the my brother thing it's it's kind of particular to that uh sort of church yeah i was extremely frustrated with them sure and i think um honestly the fruit of that church sort of speaks for itself like the scandals that have plagued them ever since um sort of speak for themselves um
01:25:10
Speaker
however um
01:25:14
Speaker
I don't think it's necessarily a woundedness from me. i um you know, and it's like, I don't know, I do sound extremely condescending whenever I talk about evangelicalism and evangelical churches.
01:25:29
Speaker
um And I always have had that tendency to sort of be condescending because I always just think I know more. And um it's not fair. um
01:25:44
Speaker
But no, I just, I look on that time as like, I don't know, like I feel like,
01:26:00
Speaker
just stunted, you know, I don't know if that makes sense. Like, I'm like, oh, like, you haven't left home yet. um You haven't begun that hero's journey to some extent. um Because if you if you were to begin to see the sort of like cognitive dissonance in your own mind and the mental gymnastics that you have to sort of participate in to stay in the system, I don't think you would be there still.
01:26:25
Speaker
Um, and I, you know, I, I was extremely comfortable in, and I think that's just an extremely comfortable place to be. It's, it's, you know, it's secret sensitive, you know, it's like, it's, it's meant to be very comfortable.
01:26:39
Speaker
Um, who wouldn't want, feel at home in a coffee shop, you know? Um, but I think, um, it's just something that, um,
01:26:58
Speaker
Yeah, i look back on as like, ah sort of like the same way that I look back on like adolescence. And again, that sounds extremely condescending. And I don't know, but that's like, it's honest.
01:27:10
Speaker
that's That's how I feel whenever I, like, I can't even imagine going back into evangelical church or like a youth group. Like when I go and visit my sisters at like their very evangelical college and see see the sort of spirituality and the things that are said and the,
01:27:27
Speaker
you know, the kids playing acoustic guitar in a circle and singing elevation songs. You know, it's like, I'm just like, oh, like, God is so much bigger than this thing and will encounter you and in a much more, like, real and tangible way if you just step out, you know?
01:27:55
Speaker
I don't know.
01:28:00
Speaker
it's not to say that i have it figured out and i'm this like whatever spiritual master um it's just that like uh for me i needed to grow up and this is what it looked like for me um and And I've said this before, I said it on the Shani's podcast that like, um you know, like there's a lot of evangelicals who are better Christians than me. They pray more, they read the Bible more, um they try to seek out God's well in their life more than I do.
01:28:38
Speaker
I get so caught up in my own sins. um And I think I just needed more grace than they did.
01:28:49
Speaker
ah You know, I don't know. And I guess implicitly that means that I've encountered grace in in a more real and concrete concrete way, which i I would argue I have ah through the the sacramental life of the Catholic Church.
01:29:07
Speaker
But, I don't know.
01:29:13
Speaker
feel like I'm going to lose a lot of listeners over that one.
01:29:17
Speaker
You think so?
01:29:20
Speaker
I hope so. No, I'm just kidding. You think that you've stirred controversy just now? is that what you mean? or No, I don't think so.
01:29:32
Speaker
um
01:29:35
Speaker
I think people who have spoken to me know that's kind of like how I feel about things. Yeah. yeah But i don't know. I probably sound like a real big jerk right now.
01:29:47
Speaker
And I'm probably not communicating my faith in a way that's very charitable and a way that would make people want to pursue it. I probably sound, you know, but like, that's just like, I don't know. I think my frustration with evangelicalism coming out probably because I mean, it's like I was an evangelical for 25 years, you know?
01:30:12
Speaker
Yeah.
01:30:19
Speaker
Good stuff. Thanks for being honest. Do you have, there anything that you wanted to say more of or that you expected to talk about that you didn't just to like take a page out of your book? I don't know.
01:30:32
Speaker
Not particularly. Now that I think about it, that's such a like bad question. Cause it's like, what would they say? i used to do that. i used to ask the question when I did broadcast journalism in high school, um sometimes you'd get something out of it.
01:30:45
Speaker
Sometimes you wouldn't. That's not a bad question. I don't i don't like it because then it's just like, oh, what are people missing? um I don't know. i
01:30:56
Speaker
Man, I just want to Man, I just like, I feel bad now. I feel like people are probably like super closed off to the Catholic faith now. Hopefully not. um Because I... No, I don't think so. But, you know, I... i um
01:31:13
Speaker
I would say, you know, there's a lot of people... You know, as we, this podcast continues, there's going lot of people who have left the faith, who don't want anything to do with the faith, don't want anything to do with church, whatever.
01:31:27
Speaker
For me, and I think for them too, it's not just like a subjective thing. I think this is just reality. The answers they were looking for and the truth that yeah they were seeking, um,
01:31:40
Speaker
can be found in Christ. you know
01:31:45
Speaker
That's the bottom line. right ah like yeah i think I think all those people who we know, it's just crazy. like i mean When I started this podcast, i was just like, man, it'd be crazy if we spoke to everyone from Bible college because half of them left. you know Half of them left.
01:32:03
Speaker
They have nothing to do with churches anymore. and Their relationships are fractured, all that stuff. um like christ is trying to give you everything you need christ has laid out everything on the line for you um he's given you everything um
01:32:34
Speaker
you just need to receive it you need to be willing to receive it um And I get it. It's like really hard for people, especially if they've been wounded by churches.
Finding Grace and Peace in Catholicism
01:32:46
Speaker
You know, there's a lot of bad stuff that happened in our church, especially in the Catholic Church. You know, gosh, how many movies do we have about that?
01:32:59
Speaker
How many articles are there about that?
01:33:04
Speaker
But even still, The fullness of grace and mercy and light and life and peace are being given to you.
01:33:18
Speaker
Through Christ and through the sacraments of his church that's what I believe and that's I believe that to be true. So.
01:33:30
Speaker
so
01:33:33
Speaker
give it a try, you know, and give it a try. um Be open to it and be open to, to God, you know, be open, be open to something bigger than yourself um because Christ, even if you left and you feel like you're running away from this crisis, not stop pursuing you.
01:33:53
Speaker
That's, that's the bottom line. um You know? Yeah. So think that's the thing for me.
01:34:05
Speaker
I think there's no better way to end it, Zach.
01:34:09
Speaker
Snaps for Jesus. Snaps for Jesus. Later, everyone.