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#7 My Friend the "Sketchy" Scene Kid- Ayaka Takao

Sabbatical Saga

47 Plays7 months ago

Ayaka joined the youth ministry at 13 where she served in many capacities until graduating high school. She attended art school in the mainland where she (mostly) left church altogether.

Keegan and Ayaka discuss gender, purity culture, and the aesthetics of evangelicalism.

Transcript

Introduction Dilemma

00:00:00

Keegan Drummond

man hopefully that worked okay cool um thanks for coming on the sabbatical saga i've been told that i need to start doing introductions for people i'm not sure though like uh someone said that i i keep assuming people know things about people but also simultaneously the people who are listening are people who know everything about this person already so but i feel with you it's kind of

00:00:10

Ayaka

Right.

00:00:28

Keegan Drummond

Actually, a lot of people might not be familiar because there was a time where I was doing...

00:00:32

Ayaka

right

00:00:35

Keegan Drummond

Well, we were both in college. you were away in the mainland, whatever. um So, yeah, I guess... to

Early Ministry and Background

00:00:42

Keegan Drummond

To contextualize this conversation, um I think we met in junior high ministry when we were both around 13 in middle school, if I'm not mistaken, and then knew each other throughout high school, sort of served in church together, and then you went off to college.

00:00:51

Ayaka

Yeah. who

00:01:01

Keegan Drummond

And I think that was it. I think that's...

00:01:04

Ayaka

That's kind of it, yeah.

00:01:05

Keegan Drummond

Okay, okay. and And that's, I guess, the context for it. So for that person... that was the context of this conversation he's actually not texting me I should have put it on do not disturb I don't know what's happening um yeah so I guess real quick I'm curious though like how you got plugged in initially like 13 years old um from what I understand you weren't religious or didn't grow up religious like if I'm not mistaken

00:01:33

Ayaka

Yeah, I mean, i could give you, like, what version, I guess maybe the quicker version um of things is, like, my family, like, they went to the church of the youth ministry that we were in.

00:01:52

Ayaka

um

00:01:52

Keegan Drummond

Okay.

00:01:54

Ayaka

But it was more kind of, like, I guess they were more ambiently, like, Christian, I would say. um And then i like went to the junior high youth ministry, like with a friend who like just brought me a kind of like randomly.

00:02:17

Ayaka

And

Youth Ministry Impact

00:02:18

Ayaka

then like, I think it was just like a, like they it got me in at like the right time situation. um But I also, it's you know, I really,

00:02:27

Keegan Drummond

In what way the right time? Like, were you, like, psychologically the right time? Or, like...

00:02:33

Ayaka

Yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, my childhood ah as like most people, I think like who grew up 2008 and after um was just like incredibly like turbulent and like inconsistent.

00:02:50

Ayaka

um Parents were like so busy. And so like, and I also like similar like a lot of people, like I don't have a lot of extended family in Hawaii.

00:03:02

Ayaka

um because I'd like moved from like Japan when I was younger and my stepdad was like from California so was one of it was like a perfect storm of like you know just being like quite like like looking for something and then also like happy to find like you know a social environment that like I felt like maybe was a lot more like relatable to me than like my like school life.

00:03:35

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

Acceptance and Influence

00:03:36

Keegan Drummond

And I think the the crazy thing is I just remember you coming to the ministry and I don't know if it's sort of just the novelty of a new person, but everyone was just head over heels for you in every way.

00:03:51

Keegan Drummond

um Like, I think it was just, you know, you had the um whatever, the haircut with the the thing and then the

00:03:59

Ayaka

Oh my God.

00:04:00

Keegan Drummond

And then like the the highlights and like full on scene kid. And i don't know. i was just like, oh, wow, that's so cool. And you do you did photography. I feel like there was like an aura around you that just came in.

00:04:13

Keegan Drummond

it was like, oh, this person's so cool. um And it it was just all of a sudden. And I felt that, i don't know, was it not? Like, I feel everyone just, did you not feel like super accepted right off the bat or

00:04:24

Ayaka

no I mean, it was super fun right off the bat. Yeah.

00:04:32

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

00:04:35

Keegan Drummond

I think, yeah, I don't know. i just, I just remember that, like, I remember like going on your Facebook or something and being like, then seeing your pictures and I'm like, oh man, she posts such cool, like artsy pictures. I'm like, that was, that was really neat. Yeah.

00:04:52

Keegan Drummond

But um yeah, I feel that you sort of found your rhythm in the ministry right away. And I remember eighth grade because you kept bringing your friends to the ministry.

00:05:06

Keegan Drummond

And I would then subsequently try and text them afterward um and hit on them um because I was a little weirdo, um almost like without fail every single time.

00:05:21

Keegan Drummond

um But yeah, i mean you know I feel bad for them now, um having endured that.

00:05:27

Ayaka

Why? i feel like that's so eighth grade.

00:05:29

Keegan Drummond

But um I just remember that you had this sort of aura that people wanted to connect with at the ministry, but then from your school, you were bringing tons of people in constantly.

Friendship and Loneliness

00:05:43

Keegan Drummond

And um do you I don't know if you remember that at all, or do you do you know why that was the case that you were, um you felt so, I don't know, maybe compelled to bring people or like, what was the deal around that or what?

00:06:00

Ayaka

I mean, I think a lot of it is like, I knew what it was like to like feel lonely. And I think a big part of like my current like work, like, like at this point in time is like also like deals with that sentiment. um and I think like at that point in time, like that was my way of like,

00:06:29

Ayaka

connecting to people and connecting people to other people. And, you know, um yeah, I think that's like, I think it's like my life mission kind of birthed from that place and then has now like extended to like my life's work that I'm like doing at this point.

00:06:49

Ayaka

um But yeah, that was like the small seed, i think.

00:06:54

Keegan Drummond

Really?

00:06:55

Ayaka

Yeah.

00:06:55

Keegan Drummond

you didn You weren't always like that, like trying to bring people into something or...

00:07:01

Ayaka

I mean, I think like, so my parent, my family, like always tells me about this memory of me, like when I was very young, like maybe like three years old and I would like run into the living room and like tell everyone like, like this was my family. They're all like 40 plus or 35 plus. And I'm like blowing a whistle and saying like, everyone get in a single file line. We're going to do this thing together. And so like,

00:07:29

Ayaka

you know, it's kind of like been an inherent like part of like my personality, but I think um like, don't know. Yeah. At the time, especially in junior high, like I think I just like people had a need and like in that moment I was like, Oh, like plugging them into ministry, like feels like the right thing to do.

00:07:56

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. So, I mean... Did

Balancing Fun and Faith

00:07:59

Keegan Drummond

you ever, I'm curious about this because other people now, you know, 10 to 15 years later, sort of feel this way where there was maybe a feeling of one person was actually told, if I recall correctly, like the blood of your friends is on your hands if you don't bring them to church.

00:08:23

Keegan Drummond

Was there that sort of sentiment around it or was it more sort of fun and

00:08:23

Ayaka

good

00:08:29

Ayaka

I was i was I worried about our uh or the state of our eternal soul like maybe a little bit yeah but um there was like a little bit of that but mostly like think I just like wanted to have fun of my friends um and but you know I also was very like serious about like ministry um but also like very serious about play and so like you know those were like two truths that I had like simultaneously like I was thinking like well well will it we're all gonna go to hell if we don't do this so like you know let's get it together but also I was like we have a walking taco don't you want one

00:09:14

Keegan Drummond

Dude, I want a walking taco right now.

00:09:16

Ayaka

I think about it I think about it all the time yeah

00:09:19

Keegan Drummond

Walking tacos? Dude, honestly?

00:09:20

Ayaka

yeah

00:09:22

Keegan Drummond

Yeah, I miss that. I don't miss that era of Uncrustables and walking tacos just every every whatever, Saturday night, whatever that was.

00:09:28

Ayaka

I think

00:09:32

Keegan Drummond

i don't even remember.

00:09:33

Ayaka

it was Saturday night.

00:09:33

Keegan Drummond

um I feel like you just got with the program, though, pretty like easily, like you were saying. like You really... dug in deep. You were serving fairly regularly.

00:09:46

Keegan Drummond

I saw you as sort of this fervent Christian. And what what do you think was happening within you at that time? What was resonating with you at this moment, going from someone who is not particularly church to just full-blown, not evangelist, but you're sort of ah bringing people in. your You're consistently serving in media. You're doing all these different things.

00:10:13

Keegan Drummond

um What was resonating with you at that time?

Natural Growth in Ministry

00:10:18

Ayaka

I mean, I think, like, I don't know, like, in, think in secular society, like, there's a big disconnect in terms of, like,

00:10:32

Ayaka

the I don't know the spiritual reason why you would like be doing something or like you know I think like that was something that I was like constantly like frustrated with even as like a really like young child um and so like I just yeah I mean i just really wanted things to mean something um like just wanted like Yeah, I guess I've never really thought about it, but just felt really like natural. I didn't think that hard about like jumping in or like serving. like It just kind of was like this thing that happened and then just snowballed. Not in a negative sense, but like you know I'm like coming ministry.

00:11:23

Ayaka

i'm coming to youth ministry I'm hanging out. I'm helping like kind of ambiently. And then all of a sudden I'm like, you know, helping with like training, like, like as a high schooler, like training, like, what like middle schoolers, like how to like, you know, be in ministry. And like, it just like, there is like a really intense like timeline where like so much happened at once.

00:11:50

Ayaka

um And I think like, you know, there's obviously, we'll, like, get into it later, there's, like, a lot of, like, pros and cons, but, like, I think a really big pro at the time was, like, I think people, like, were able to recognize, like, maybe the things that, like, I was good at, but, like, wasn't necessarily being, like, held and, like, valued, like, in, like, my school life, um and, like, also, like, just

00:12:23

Ayaka

in my like secular life in general. um So yeah, I think that's like kind of the gist of things.

00:12:32

Keegan Drummond

It just kind of naturally came out of these interactions that you're having on a sort of day-to-day basis with the friends and connections you're making in church. Is that what you're saying? Or...

00:12:42

Ayaka

Yeah, I think there's a lot of that, yeah.

00:12:45

Keegan Drummond

Well, I mean, and we we don't we don't, it's not like there's no structure. Like we're kind of just having a conversation.

Faith and Ministry Challenges

00:12:51

Keegan Drummond

So, I mean, if you want to get into like, i mean, it sounds like there's sort of um these positive things that are happening in the background and these seeds being planted in which you're sort of cultivating this gift um of, you know, that you kind of carry with you today you bringing people in hospitality friendship etc um it sounds like though in the background maybe there's these other sorts of like seeds of maybe discontent taking place at the same time or i'm

00:13:31

Ayaka

yeah there's like a little bit of it I think it's funny now that I've like had distance and like been able to think about like a lot about why like I was there in the first place um and i think maybe more than I realized like I actually took like the word very seriously like I was not there to mess around like I was like

00:13:57

Keegan Drummond

Mm-hmm.

00:13:58

Ayaka

I want to be to the book or not to the book, like, you know, but I want to like be a Christian and like a true sense of the word. But then like, mean, we're like in middle school, high school, so obviously this is going to happen, but there was like so much drama and things and like a lot of like hierarchical like issues. And like, also like there were moments where like, I almost felt like my like,

00:14:28

Ayaka

personhood was like being like questioned or like um a lot of like you know like things that I was like I think how I'm living is like consistent to like the word I'm reading but then like a lot of times like there's you know there's a lot of people interpreting one thing so there's gonna be so many different opinions but um i think that was like kind of a struggle I had consistently where I was like, I felt pretty sure of like what it meant to be a Christian and what that looked like.

00:15:09

Ayaka

um But then that was like always being challenged by like people who maybe thought that they knew better about what that looked like. um So like, it is interesting to like look back and realize like,

00:15:26

Ayaka

Like, I recently went to church for the first time in like, years.

00:15:29

Keegan Drummond

No kidding.

00:15:31

Ayaka

um Because I made a friend who, like, attends a church here in New York. And i just, like, was like, sure, I'll come with you And it was one of those things where I was like, oh, I don't think I ever stopped, like, believing in these things. And, like, I don't think it ever stopped, like, resonating with me. But I do think, like, the, like...

00:15:54

Ayaka

echo chamber like ministry environment of it all was like honestly was the biggest thing that like caused me to like step back and be like I want to like figure out like what I really believe in like who I really am as a person um and so yeah though that was like a very recent like realization I had

00:16:17

Keegan Drummond

Interesting. So

Disconnect with Evangelicalism

00:16:18

Keegan Drummond

do you, I mean, ah what was it? Was it sort of a similar church to

00:16:22

Ayaka

yeah

00:16:22

Keegan Drummond

what Oh, really? Interesting.

00:16:24

Ayaka

yeah

00:16:24

Keegan Drummond

So super evangelical vibes.

00:16:27

Ayaka

Yeah, I was kind like, okay, I'm definitely not evangelical. I kind of was like, maybe I should check out the Presbyterians or something at some point. But um yeah, I was like, i don't think I stopped believing in this like thing. But it's just like, yeah, I mean, it was funny. I went and I was like, okay, this evangelical vibe is like not for me still. like this is That's still like a fact of the matter.

00:17:00

Ayaka

yeah

00:17:01

Keegan Drummond

Yeah, I, there's a, a door dash that just came for Taya right now. And it was like happening in the background.

00:17:07

Ayaka

oh you

00:17:09

Keegan Drummond

And I'm like, kind of pissed because I don't know why they knocked like they, they were supposed to just leave it. But You know, it's one of those things where it's like, I don't want to see him, you know?

00:17:22

Keegan Drummond

um

00:17:22

Ayaka

yeah

00:17:23

Keegan Drummond

But like, ah no, not not that's fine.

00:17:24

Ayaka

They just wanted to let you know it's there.

00:17:26

Keegan Drummond

I've do it ash before, you know, make a couple extra bucks here and there. But Mike, just leave the thing. You know, don't know why they needed to knock. And then I'm like, oh, crap.

00:17:37

Keegan Drummond

Like I was like going through a moment. I'm like, te is like answering the door by herself. I'm not listening to Ayaka enough. I'm not focusing enough.

00:17:46

Ayaka

It's okay.

00:17:46

Keegan Drummond

I'm really sorry. i got distracted.

00:17:48

Ayaka

no

00:17:49

Keegan Drummond

will happen again. um um we might hear it. This mic's pretty good, though. So we probably won't hear it.

00:17:56

Ayaka

I don't think I heard.

00:17:56

Keegan Drummond

um

00:17:57

Ayaka

I didn't hear.

00:17:57

Keegan Drummond

But oh my gosh, so that's um mean people are going to get really upset that I didn't talk about this thing about you going to church recently. um so But what's going on in your head while you're going to church?

00:18:09

Keegan Drummond

i'm I was really curious about this. What... um Oh my gosh, I was about to go on a tangent. I'm really curious about what you think about like aesthetics around evangelicalism as an artist. We'll get back to that, though. I'm i'm really curious about that.

00:18:24

Keegan Drummond

But tell me more about this time of going to church recently. This is like last week or something? Oh,

00:18:28

Ayaka

This is like maybe two months ago. Yeah.

00:18:31

Keegan Drummond

okay. Okay.

00:18:32

Ayaka

Yeah. um And yeah, I mean, so the friend I went with, she's like recently, like, she's like recently a Christian.

00:18:44

Ayaka

um

00:18:44

Keegan Drummond

OK.

00:18:45

Ayaka

And so and some ways, maybe hanging out with her, I feel like I'm like looking at a mirror of myself like like a decade ago um And ah yeah like, felt kind of like I was like when I met her, and like I went to church with her, i was like, oh, this kind of feels like looking into a mirror from like a decade ago.

00:18:58

Keegan Drummond

As a sorry?

00:19:08

Keegan Drummond

OK.

00:19:10

Ayaka

um But yeah, I mean, like the the evangelical vibe like, we all gotta, like, get all of New York City in these doors, and I was like, all right, and then it was, like, a lot of, like, conversation about, like, or the sermon was, like, about revival and, like, all these things, and I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm not sure, like, how I, like, feel about those sentiments exactly, but, you know, there was a lot of talk about love for, like, fellow men and, like, those things, and I was like, okay, these are, like, values that

00:19:23

Keegan Drummond

Okay.

00:19:49

Ayaka

I like resonate with and I still like practice today. um And so like there was a lot of there were moments where i was like I'm in this and there are moments where I'm like oh I'm not in this at all.

00:20:02

Keegan Drummond

Interesting. What was, what were those moments? What do you think like triggered that in you?

00:20:07

Ayaka

I think like you know i mean like the fact of like you walked into a church and people interact with you pretty immediately positively um which is like something I just try to do on a day-to-day basis but usually that's like an output I have and not necessarily like an input I'm like experiencing um because

00:20:20

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

Struggling with Church Mindset

00:20:34

Keegan Drummond

that That level, like you're used to giving that to people, but you're not necessarily used to receiving that level of hospitality immediately. Okay.

00:20:41

Ayaka

yeah

00:20:42

Ayaka

yeah um and it was like there was like a woman who was, like, in her forty s like, waiting in the bathroom, lined with me, and she was, like, where's your lip gloss from? And, like, you know, like, we're just really, like, I was, like, oh, okay, like, I'm back in, like, a church, um, and so, like, these interactions, like, felt really good and, like, positive, um, and even, like, during worship, like, I was, like, right, like, this is

00:21:16

Ayaka

like it's structured in a way that like gives you time to like reflect and like think about things and you kind of get in this headspace that like you can't really access in your day-to-day life unless you're like carving out time to do um and then like yeah but I think the the doomsday clock on salvation like type of like

00:21:45

Ayaka

energy like maybe that's like the thing that makes me feel a bit like like

00:21:51

Keegan Drummond

And is that like altar call or calls for repentance or?

00:21:54

Ayaka

yeah yeah yeah yeah like you save your soul now and I'm like maybe people need to think about it I don't know like you know like and it's yeah and it it's it made me realize like ah also like you know my prefrontal cortex was like fully developed at this point um and I was like and I haven't been

00:22:03

Keegan Drummond

It's a big decision.

00:22:15

Ayaka

in that that environment, like, since it's, like, since it was, like, developed. um And I was like, oh, like, people are kind of running on, like, pure adrenaline here.

00:22:26

Ayaka

um And, like, um you know, I'm sure, like, the spirit does move them, but it's like, can you distinguish, like, like, and when I was listening to you and Quinn's conversation, like,

00:22:43

Ayaka

and you were, like, talking about how, like, that one kid was, like, i want to, I'm being called to be a pastor.

00:22:48

Keegan Drummond

Dude. Yeah. Okay.

00:22:52

Ayaka

Like, that was, like, the kind of vibe where i was, like, okay, like, you know, like, I was, like, there, it's not invalid, but also, like, what is, like, actually going on here, and, like, just feeling really interested in, like, dissecting that a little more um at this point my life.

00:23:13

Keegan Drummond

Dissecting what exactly?

00:23:15

Ayaka

Like, i guess that, like, what exactly is that, like, not, like, formula, but would just what make what would make that kid, like, feel this way, you know?

Critique of Ministry Celebrity Culture

00:23:27

Keegan Drummond

yeah

00:23:27

Ayaka

oh And, like, yeah, like, being, like, i mean, it's interesting, like, my feelings about, like, ministry and also, like, my feelings about, like,

00:23:43

Ayaka

being an artist are, like, very similar, where, like, I don't believe in, like, superstars, um or, like, I don't, like, I don't believe in, like, celebrity, and, like, I think serving and, like, making should come from, like, a very, like, pure place of, like, love for, like, fellow man or the natural world, um and so, like, you know, it is funny when, like, the first impulse you have is, like,

00:23:54

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

00:24:14

Ayaka

ah I want to be the person, like, like, doing the sermon, you know, which is, like, cool, like, I mean, I want to be a professor at some point, so, like, it's not, like, I'm, like, void of, like, those feelings, but, um yeah, it's just, like, it's recalled back to a time when, like, I was a ministry, and there was, like, these secret, like, undertones of, like,

00:24:20

Keegan Drummond

yeah

00:24:43

Ayaka

power, like, hunger that people weren't necessarily, like, aware of, like, on the front of, like, the consciousness. Like, people were kind of, like, subconsciously, like, moving in this way, um which, like, caused a lot of strife at points.

00:25:02

Ayaka

um

00:25:05

Ayaka

Yeah.

00:25:05

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. i I don't... I mean, it's... As... as ah You know, Taya thought I went way too hard on that one kid. like And there might have been little bit of a racial insensitivity by the extremely Moak accent I gave the the kid.

00:25:24

Keegan Drummond

um i get it. ah That is insensitive. I understand. um The kid happened to be Moak. If he sounded like me, I would have...

00:25:31

Ayaka

yes

00:25:32

Keegan Drummond

done that voice, you know, just really nasally and annoying. But I don't think it's necessarily fortuitous that young men such as that young man and myself, i our whole lives were being told,

00:25:47

Keegan Drummond

this is the most important thing. This is the end all. Why wouldn't I devote my entire self to this thing? My career, my education, everything should go to that thing. It's the most important thing one can do.

00:26:07

Keegan Drummond

And, you know, for me, that's what I ended up doing. ah I don't think that kid did it. I haven't heard from him since. I don't even remember who he was, to be honest with you. um But um I prayed for him that he would become a pastor.

00:26:22

Keegan Drummond

So perhaps that will that will come to fruition soon.

00:26:23

Ayaka

Yeah.

00:26:27

Keegan Drummond

But, um yeah, I don't know. It's... are Our whole lives were sort of based around this thing, and ah yeah, it's it's not a coincidence that we all wanted to keep the thing going, especially the guys who were having a really good time and saw a path for them to to stay in it and to stay a main character, I guess, in it.

00:26:51

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

00:26:52

Ayaka

yeah

00:26:52

Keegan Drummond

And that is interesting about what you're saying about celebrity, because that's exactly how I felt about a lot of the folks that I grew up around in the church.

00:27:04

Keegan Drummond

um I remember even Nalu. i like I remember Nalu picked me up from my house and I was just like, oh man, like, no way.

00:27:15

Keegan Drummond

This is crazy. Like, you know where I live now? That's so crazy. like I don't know. Or I remember I played Halo with one guy and um one of the the singers showed up and he's telling me how to play Halo. And I was just like, sure, man. Yeah. Whatever you say, this is how you play Halo now.

00:27:38

Keegan Drummond

I don't know. felt like superstar. I don't know that it was kind of unhealthy. Yeah. Yeah, that's curious. How does that sort of play into how you view artists? And that's, that's interesting.

00:27:53

Ayaka

I mean, I think, like, some people naturally have charisma, which is, like, totally fine. Like, I think i think people should, like, pick up space and, like, be loud and be charismatic. That's, like, not necessarily, like, something I have a problem with, but it's more when, like,

00:28:12

Ayaka

I think that it's difficult when,

00:28:18

Ayaka

like, you feel like, or how I say this? It's like, your soul's at stake. And also, like, you want to serve in the best way possible.

00:28:35

Ayaka

You want to do things right. But you also just like really want to like befriend this person that's extremely charismatic. And so like, you know, there is this like, and like this happens in like every kind of social environment and like, especially like in the art world too, where like, I think maybe people have like a personal conviction about like what like,

00:29:06

Ayaka

I don't know what their interpretation of the word is or what like their interpretation of like what an artist's practice should look like. But then like, there's just someone who's like super cool and you just like want to be their friend. So you'll just kind of like be like, uh-huh, yeah, sure. and like, and just like, you know, follow them around. And like, I think when maybe you don't have like necessarily like a strong like foundation yet like that can really like affect the way that you you know like if you it's like very simple like if you don't know yourself really well yet then um it's easy to just like get carried away by like you know another person and so there were

00:29:59

Ayaka

like And I think young people, especially in the time that we were in ministry, are like just like like sponges, like they're very um susceptible to things. And so while that can be like a really good thing to like be eager to like learn and just like, you know, like just be all hands on deck about things, but also like like But like you can just be easily like manipulated or just like lose a sense of self like really easily.

00:30:34

Keegan Drummond

Yeah, and I mean, i don't know, like it sounds to what you're describing almost sounds like a cult. that's That's,

Ministry Dynamics vs. Cult Behavior

00:30:42

Keegan Drummond

you know, people who who don't have a strong sense of self.

00:30:49

Keegan Drummond

um They're sort of underdeveloped psychologically, um perhaps have gone through some trauma. So there's just this level of dissociation.

00:31:01

Keegan Drummond

that when you come to encounter someone who doesn't even necessarily have to have that, but can feign that in some way, in a meaningful way that touches you,

00:31:14

Keegan Drummond

um

00:31:16

Keegan Drummond

i don't You sort of lose yourself into that person. And I saw that in myself and the people that I thought had it figured out.

00:31:27

Keegan Drummond

And then I quickly realized, oh, you're maybe even worse off than me. Because not only are you immature, but you think you've got it figured out.

00:31:33

Ayaka

Yeah,

00:31:38

Ayaka

yeah well, I think like maybe that was like the distance I felt where like I kind of was like not like super comfortable but maybe a little more comfortable being like I'm constantly like questioning and like re-evaluating and like I like have like healthy degrees of like separation from things um whereas like I think you know, some others of, like, our peers didn't necessarily, like, have that, but then sometimes it put me in this weird position where they're, like, like, they, like, you know, I think especially after I left, like, to go to college, like,

00:32:24

Ayaka

um i was, like, hearing, like, through the grapevine that a lot of people were saying, like, oh, Ayanga is and this is the vernacular that was used sketchy like now and like things like that um where yeah it just it was like you know there was I think there is like a lot of judgment but that is like coming from a place of like someone like just people who don't know themselves very well yet and so if someone else is like trying to figure it out maybe stumbling through it in the process like

00:32:37

Keegan Drummond

Oh, interesting.

00:33:01

Ayaka

But being like brave about it, i think like it's easy to point at that person and be like, well, that person's messing up. So it makes like me feel better about like, you know, not taking risks.

00:33:13

Ayaka

um But that was like how I interpreted it at least.

00:33:18

Keegan Drummond

That you were taking risks.

00:33:20

Ayaka

Yeah, I mean, just like really putting everything on the line, like putting myself out into the world to just like really try to figure out like who I am and like what I necessarily like what exactly I believe in and like I think the conclusion I've come to at like this very young age of like 29 is that like I actually don't know anything and I probably will continue to like come to this realization that I don't know anything um and that's like what feels good but that's like

00:33:33

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

00:33:58

Ayaka

that goes back to like how I was feeling even when I was in ministry where I was like, like constantly like, like feeling strong in my faith, but also constantly questioning things um because I like wanted to like really understand like what I was reading and like believing.

00:34:17

Ayaka

um

00:34:17

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. Hmm.

00:34:19

Ayaka

But then like that could be interpreted as like, oh, like my faith is like weak or all like, you know, whatever. um and so it what I did feel it was strange like like you were saying like I did feel really like quickly accepted but also like maybe in the back of my mind like I felt like I was like constantly like being challenged because I was like you know like actually thinking critically about things perhaps yeah

00:34:52

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. And it just begets more questions as you learn these things like, oh, why? What is that? What purpose does that achieve?

00:35:02

Ayaka

Yeah.

00:35:03

Keegan Drummond

I mean, yeah, no I think that's that's just a reasonable thing to think about when you hear how radical or sometimes unbelievable things are in scripture, theologically, whatever.

00:35:21

Keegan Drummond

um I'm really curious about that time of going to college because i you know, you like, I guess...

00:35:33

Keegan Drummond

Did people reach out to you during that time? or i mean, as you're hearing this behind you, I mean, I don't know. I don't want to get into the drama of it because I'm just sort of like curious though, because i think the average Christian that hears this that had no sort of um development in the last 15 years might go like, oh, she went to college and lost her faith.

00:35:56

Keegan Drummond

You know what i mean?

00:35:56

Ayaka

Uh-huh.

00:35:57

Keegan Drummond

And I think that's a fear that we all had for all of our friends who were going off to the mainland and really did take those risks and tried to explore who they were and how they ought to be in the world.

00:36:14

Keegan Drummond

And i don't know, like, do you see it? i guess, I mean, that's kind of a ridiculous question to ask. Like if you see yourself as sort of this, like, oh, I just went to, you know, a liberal institution or whatever, and then got indoctrinated. and like, but I guess that's sort of the, like what people would think when they hear that. But I don't think that's a fair thing to,

00:36:42

Keegan Drummond

sort of a sign to that experience. I don't even know if there's a question in that. I think I'm just sort of speaking out loud about this thing because I just find it unfortunate that it's it's clear that you in high school were someone who is very devout and very fervent in their desire to discover maybe generally speaking, the transcendent and themselves and their interaction ah between themselves and what is transcendent.

00:37:17

Keegan Drummond

um And to not see you going off to college and sort of

00:37:26

Keegan Drummond

going and learning and doing these things is maybe an extension of that experience perhaps is i mean is it not or i don't know um don't even know if that was a question i don't think it was i think i'm just sort of riffing because ah yeah um i know any thoughts on that

00:37:36

Ayaka

yeah

00:37:43

Ayaka

Yeah, I mean, it was like, but but it's like kind of the narrative that gets threaded, right, about like, oh, you go off to school and you like lose your faith. um But, you know, as time goes on, like, I also am like realizing, like, life is not so like linear in

College and Spiritual Redefinition

00:38:03

Ayaka

that way.

00:38:03

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

00:38:03

Ayaka

um And like, I wouldn't say like, I wouldn't say that my like, faith necessarily looks exactly like it did in like high school or something you know but and there were periods of time where I was like maybe I don't believe in a god um or like you know like maybe we're all just here randomly and there's no reason why um but I think it has kind of had this full circle moment where I'm like okay like maybe I'm not necessarily like interested in like like

00:38:39

Ayaka

like participating in like a really like dogmatic like practice um but like I do feel like this imminence of like you know feeling myself through the world and like you know feeling like a spirit that like you know like embodies like all things around me and I think I'm like that sounds like God you know like um and like

00:38:42

Keegan Drummond

Mm-hmm.

00:39:09

Ayaka

I do kind of, I don't, I mean, it's funny. There's like a whole trajectory. I did a lot of like religious studies and undergrad actually. um And like, you know, i I like took reading the Bible very seriously. Like when I was in ministry and like that, like propelled me to like this, like other trajectory of like,

00:39:35

Ayaka

like, really getting into, like, Western philosophy and, like, you know, but then through Western philosophy, like, kind of horseshoeing back around to being, like, oh, like, faith and hope are, like, actually the most important things about, like, being, like, a human, um, and so, like, I view that as, like, no, like, there's no pass-fail, but, like, a success story of, like, you know, just departing from something and, like,

00:40:04

Ayaka

coming back full circle maybe and not a way that i initially like thought but like really like being able to prove to myself through my life experiences um to being like no like I think like these convictions I felt as like a high schooler middle schooler were like real um but I think like you know with whatever like culty mindsets or like capitalistic, like linear like timelines. like like It just didn't look productive to people, maybe.

00:40:41

Keegan Drummond

what what that's i'm I'm curious about that connection. So this sort of... I think we've referenced The Alchemist on this before, but um sort of like a Campbellian hero's journey type deal.

Cultural Contrast and Recovery

00:40:56

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

00:40:56

Keegan Drummond

Um, what convictions in middle school that you're talking about or in ministry do you feel have been constant or maybe have been recovered, um, you know, circling back to, you know, 29 from 13 to 29, I guess.

00:41:12

Ayaka

Yeah, I mean, remember, like, I had a map of, like, I think in middle school, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was like, ah map of, like, persecuted people, like, a country map or something. it was, like, some kind of, like, really intense, like, evangelical, like, like, ministry that was, like, distributing these things, but, like, I felt so, like, deeply about, like,

00:41:40

Ayaka

just humanity as a whole and, like, um, like, really, feeling really strongly about, like, loving fellow man and, like, you know, like, I used to do these things where, like, Valentine's Day, I'm, I'm handing out spam with the bees that I made to, like, homeless people, like, you know, like, handing out, like, um, hygiene kits and, like, that was, like, something that I was, like, doing in, like,

00:42:10

Ayaka

high school middle school high school um and like I think maybe when I first went off to college like i was like re-evaluating my relationship to like niceness and like kindness um and like realizing I had really complicated like feelings towards like just being kind in general because like Also, like, I was coming from Hawaii where people are just generally kind and then going to, like, a you know, like, a liberal arts institution where, like, most people who go there are, like, wealthy white people.

00:42:51

Ayaka

um And, like, they're, like, I don't want to share. And I was, like, dang, you guys don't want to share. Like, it was, like, it it was, like, a very, like, cold, hard reality of, like,

00:43:03

Ayaka

is this like every man for themselves? Like maybe i can't survive as like a person who's kind and like loves fellow man. Like maybe that I need obliterate that part of myself. um And so I lost that for hot minute, but then within the past like five years, I'd say through teaching actually, cause I teach ceramics, but other art things. um it came back and I was like this is what I loved about like ministry is like like my love for like people um and I'm I'm glad it's back because I think I was like truly missing like a big part of like who I am as like a person throughout those years that I was like just trying to like you know like resting or r bf my way through life

00:44:00

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. Yeah. I think that is a tough thing when you get to the mainland. And I think that was ah sort of a rude awakening for me coming to the mainland was that just culturally, it's so different and weird and unfriendly. And especially when you're in higher education, and elitists and I don't know. It's it's just a, it's I'm glad to be away from it now as much as I wanted to be around it for so long, but I don't know. it it is ah

00:44:41

Keegan Drummond

It does make you miss the sort of simplicity of those relationships that we cherished during those formative years of our life. Yeah.

00:44:54

Keegan Drummond

I guess i'm I feel that there's this sort of narrative um elements to your story that we've spoken about before, um ah but I'd be kind of interested to hear your thoughts now.

00:45:10

Keegan Drummond

I feel the the sort of

00:45:16

Keegan Drummond

motif of gender in your story is quite pertinent to the whole thing. And

Gender Dynamics Apology

00:45:23

Keegan Drummond

even just hearing sort of like how you felt perceived going off to school, sort of doing your thing, um I feel like it plays a big role. And obviously, um i don't know, we can kind of get into this.

00:45:37

Keegan Drummond

i I had a sort of apology that I sent you a while back And then i don' it means less now if I share it on this podcast, but I feel like it is relevant because it's sort of part of the story.

00:45:42

Ayaka

Oh. Mm-hmm.

00:45:49

Keegan Drummond

um i was um we, okay, I guess we ran into each other at a coffee shop um two years ago.

00:46:00

Keegan Drummond

And you and i got to talking about just church, sort of gender dynamics in church randomly after not speaking for the last probably eight years.

00:46:12

Keegan Drummond

I don't know at that point. This was 2023. So yeah, I don't know. it was It's been a while. i probably haven't seen you since 20...

00:46:22

Keegan Drummond

16 maybe i don't know whatever that is um um but i mean it was just crazy i honestly in the moment i was sort of shocked that you were even receptive and happy to see me maybe um because the night before someone had reminded me that ah how nasty i was to you like when we were younger and um

00:46:23

Ayaka

Yeah.

00:46:47

Keegan Drummond

I was thinking about that pretty much the whole day, the following day. And um you left and I sort of turned to the people I was with and I was just like, it's so funny because someone brought up how nasty I was to Ayako when we were growing up.

00:47:02

Keegan Drummond

And one of them said like, you should just apologize for it. Like you're clearly holding onto it, just move on.

00:47:05

Ayaka

Okay.

00:47:08

Keegan Drummond

And so I sent you that thing kind of just remarking at how um ironic the situation was, I guess, that we were talking about misogyny and evangelicalism while I was just a huge jerk that was extremely rude to you and to hitting on all the girls that you brought to the ministry.

00:47:21

Ayaka

good

00:47:32

Keegan Drummond

um like That irony is not lost on me. i get it. um but i don't know you were like super charitable about it too but um i don't know just this irrelevant story to bring up um no but yeah i don't know and there were even times i remember this one time there was this one girl who started coming to the ministry and everyone everyone thought she was really pretty and she was objectively really pretty but i just negged her the second she walked in and you slapped me across the face

00:48:04

Ayaka

Oh my god, wait,

00:48:04

Keegan Drummond

i I was like, what the heck? like Where did that come from?

00:48:09

Ayaka

wait, wait, I don't remember.

00:48:11

Keegan Drummond

um It was, it was pretty good though. I deserved it in the moment.

00:48:16

Ayaka

Oh my god, sorry.

00:48:16

Keegan Drummond

Um, but yeah, I, uh, that was the kind of energy, but you were, um, but I don't know. i feel that those gender dynamics sort of play into your story.

00:48:28

Keegan Drummond

Like you, um, are someone who is constantly bringing people into the ministry.

00:48:39

Keegan Drummond

Like, you know, one might think of, uh, I don't know, some biblical character, the woman at the well, Lydia, Phoebe, whatever. um Like someone who's like responsible for bringing these people, but not necessarily like doing the evangelical work, someone who's serving constantly and like putting all their energy into this thing.

00:49:00

Keegan Drummond

um And then someone who goes off and, becomes sketchy and it's sort of like e like pariah i don't know because at the same time and i don't know like not to keep talking about myself constantly throughout high school i was being sketchy and i was like doing just being like not being involved not doing anything not going to church um and don't think i really got that sort of it was just like oh he's just

00:49:34

Ayaka

and

00:49:35

Keegan Drummond

Just being one rascal, you know, like, I don't know or whatever, but I feel that the there's there's just like a different expectation around not just you, but women like you.

Gender Expectations in Hawaiian Culture

00:49:49

Ayaka

who yeah well yeah it is funny I like never really thought about like I thought about I thought about like misogyny in general within like evangelical spaces but like I think, too, like, it's really fight-specific to Hawaii, um where, like, it's just, like, such a, like, oh, well, my son's doing his best.

00:50:15

Ayaka

And then it's, like, my daughter better have all the ducks in a row. And that's, like, baseline, you know? um And I think, like, that was something, i mean, not just, like, within ministry, but in life in general, like, struggling a lot with, like,

00:50:31

Ayaka

feeling like I had to be exceptional at every single thing I did. um And like, I think in, yeah, one time, so one time, we were just like setting up pre ministry, not you, it was like me and a group of other people.

00:50:50

Keegan Drummond

Mm-hmm.

00:50:50

Ayaka

And like, you know, I'm kind. Like, I am very kind and generous. Like, that's something I know about myself and, like, confident about.

00:51:02

Ayaka

But one time, like, I just wasn't being, like, nice for no reason. And a man, a guy like, a boy, um just turns to me and says, like, Ayaka, you're kind of mean, huh?

00:51:17

Ayaka

And I was like, me? Like, you know, like, I was like,

00:51:22

Keegan Drummond

That sounds like something I would say,

00:51:23

Ayaka

ah Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, I mean, I know if, like, i and that was, like, another thing, like, I know that I could be, like, maybe, like, slightly, like, aggressive or, like, challenging at times, but, like, it never came from, like, a place of, like, wanting to, like, harm people, you know, and I think in Hawaii, that's, like, also generally, like, a, like, sentiment people have where it's, like,

00:51:24

Keegan Drummond

but

00:51:52

Ayaka

women have to be like this soft smooth thing without any like edges and obstruction and especially in ministry it's like you have to like really just like honestly be like quiet you know and like I'm very naturally loud and like expressive and like have opinions and I think like were it be like I was like a boy in ministry, like that would have been celebrated, maybe been encouraged to like become a pastor or something. But I think like, and i remember having conversations with like other girls about that where like they were like, oh, like being a pastor something like I'm interested in, but like I don't know if that's like my place as a woman.

00:52:44

Ayaka

And then like reflecting back on those conversations, I'm like, what the heck was that even about, you know, and, like, like, but, you know, so much has changed, like, you just, like, even secularly about, like, how we view and interact with, like, gender dynamics, but, um yeah, also, it, like, referring back to, like, your apology and, like, nastiness, like, I truly, like, don't even remember, like,

00:53:16

Ayaka

that much of it or like any of it at all like so i mean I felt was very grateful that you like apologized but it truly i think it just got washed out in like the noise of like other people who were just kind of like echoing those same sentiments like it was just more it was less about you as an individual and more as like like that was just like the song of the time you know like where people were just generally like I don't know, like very like

00:53:53

Ayaka

the surveillance I felt on like my behavior was like really intense, I'd say. Like I would get called in a lot for like, what do they call it? Accountability checks or something.

00:54:08

Keegan Drummond

Probably. That sounds about right.

00:54:09

Ayaka

um And they'd be like, what's going on? I'd be like, what is going on? You tell me like, you um And it took me a really long time to actually like deprogram myself from that like way of thinking. Like, like i just be, I'll be navigating life like without a physical person like taking me aside and being like, what's up?

00:54:34

Ayaka

But then like in the back of my mind, there' was always like, always constantly like hearing like a voice that was like, like that's too much or you're taking up too much space or you're being too rough or aggressive um and so

00:54:51

Keegan Drummond

Is that what you are typically being called? I mean, not to like pry, but I mean, is that what you're typically being called in for just being brash or...

00:54:59

Ayaka

no I

Purity Culture Restrictions

00:55:00

Ayaka

think I was being called in for some funny things like like I also you know my my whole life I've just been like friends with a lot of men um and like have had a lot of like close friendships with like men my whole life um and that's like something I got called in a lot for um even if you know I had no intentions of like romantic involvement or anything um but even if I did like I just I don't think that like is something I should have been punished for necessarily

00:55:38

Keegan Drummond

Yeah, I think one of the things someone mentioned to me was I brought up purity culture and they're like, oh, what do you mean by that? And guess, you know, for people who aren't in that world, um well, I guess, how would you define sort of like define sort of that um

00:56:04

Keegan Drummond

milieu of purity in late two thousand early twenty ten s evangelicalism,

00:56:14

Ayaka

Yeah, I mean, it was so like,

00:56:19

Ayaka

it It ranged from, like, like one, like, chiller end of the spectrum was, like, your shorts are, like, too short to, like, the other end of the spectrum, which was, like, you cannot be alone in a room with, like, a boy ever.

00:56:39

Ayaka

um And, like, just, yeah, like, like, evangelical purity culture is so... specific in the sense that like it almost feels like they implant a bug into your brain where they're like any thought you have like get direct directly gets transmitted transmit to God and then you'll like get struck down for it and that's like kind of a narrative that like gets built around like just like any type of like

00:57:17

Ayaka

behavior or thought will like strays away from like the strict rigid like like it it was almost like don't show your ankles like kind of vibe where I'm like guys it's like 2015 2014 like we're gonna show ankle oh and yeah it's I mean it was like a lot of like condemning others for not like behaving the way you were behaving which is like a more simplistic way of like putting it but like if someone was like like there was like a range of people who were like like oh like i don't date and like I'm dating for marriage um and then like and ah and then these people oftentimes would be like shaming people who were like

00:58:12

Ayaka

exploring romantic relationships but like not necessarily for this like end goal of like this union at the end um and like i was like we're 14 there's no way we should know these things um but it was like like that culture made it feel like my soul was on the line just because like I had a crush on like someone's brother you know

00:58:25

Keegan Drummond

yeah

00:58:40

Keegan Drummond

i you know and For me, i guess i'm I'm a very scrupulous individual in that when I was 14, it's like, oh, yeah, we only date to marry, so I can't date.

00:58:55

Keegan Drummond

And, and obviously I'm just raging hormone teenager. i and I, I think that was for me, what caused me to lash out, especially towards women was like, Oh, I can't date you.

00:59:09

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

00:59:10

Keegan Drummond

So I will just like, be a huge jerk to you, I guess. I don't know. um And ah yeah, which was really unfortunate. and i And I mean, I took that out on my relationship, even with my guy friends who, even if they sort of hinted at having a relationship with a girl or, you know, held a girl's hand, obviously that was something that did happen. Like guy held a girl's hand. i was just like, you're such a terrible Christian.

00:59:39

Keegan Drummond

You suck. Yeah. God hates you. Like what, where is that coming from?

00:59:43

Ayaka

Bye.

00:59:45

Keegan Drummond

But it was just this insecurity in me that was manifesting itself in this really anger and resentment and contempt that I had because I couldn't enter into that willing.

01:00:01

Keegan Drummond

Like I was just too scrupulous to really think about doing that. um which is really unfortunate because even the dynamic you're describing in which that behavior is policed, it's sort of heavily women that would be disproportionately affected by such a thing.

01:00:22

Keegan Drummond

Like, I mean, no one cares if a guy's shorts are too short. That might be like a gag or something like, oh, that's sort of funny.

01:00:29

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:00:31

Keegan Drummond

So-and-so wears short shorts. I remember even at one of the camps, they... and Maybe you were there for this. I don't know. But they made a rule that girls had to wear rash guards or something at the beach or at the pool.

01:00:44

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:00:47

Keegan Drummond

And i think one of the girls said, okay, make the guys do it too.

01:00:53

Ayaka

yeah

01:00:55

Keegan Drummond

so reasonable it' to reasonable request, I guess, in light of these things.

01:00:58

Ayaka

no like just no nip for anybody you know

01:01:02

Keegan Drummond

Right. I mean, if if they can't, then, you know. um But yeah, I think that disproportionately seems to um affect women, um which is...

01:01:19

Keegan Drummond

I don't know, interesting. i I think it kind of goes to show that like you know someone like you goes off to college and it's just like, oh, she's now going to be like wrapped up in the world, like sort of a ah ah damsel in distress in the the um liberal academia of, you know, whatever i i don't think people would think that way towards a guy i think it would be like oh so-and-so went off to college on the east coast that's really cool like

01:01:57

Keegan Drummond

oh, or they fell away from their faith? Oh my gosh, like, pray for him or whatever.

01:02:02

Ayaka

yeah

01:02:02

Keegan Drummond

i just

01:02:04

Ayaka

so

01:02:04

Keegan Drummond

I just think the the vibe would be different, and I don't know. I think that's maybe evident in your story, which is unfortunate, you know? don't know.

01:02:17

Ayaka

I mean, i yeah, it's, it brought me to this point. So as unfortunate as it is, I'm like, I'm glad I'm here, you know?

01:02:28

Keegan Drummond

Yeah, so I guess and even when you were talking about church, it's kind of interesting. I just noticed that you weren't immediately like and bashing the idea of spirituality, God, the transcendent, the Holy Spirit even.

01:02:50

Keegan Drummond

um What do you sort of see... what I guess what is different in your belief system now? How would you describe that, I guess, now?

01:03:02

Keegan Drummond

Not to make it ah dogmatic sort of thesis of what you believe, but I am just curious because it does sound like you have some beliefs that still resonate with you that, I don't know, well, maybe I'm just drawing assumptions. I could just let you talk and say what you think about that, I guess.

01:03:22

Ayaka

No, yeah, it is true. Like, I think I, like, I think i have come back to face in, like, such a like, like, it's a very singular thing to me um in terms of, like, you know, my belief system is just kind of this, like, collage of things that have worked.

01:03:45

Ayaka

But, like, for an example, like, within, like, my art, like, studio practice, like, I was actually reflecting on a lot of, like, these little rituals I have, and they kind of go back to, like, my, like, ritual of, like, ah doing, like, my daily devo, like, doing, like, and the way I, like, convene with others is, like, very small groupie, and, like, I mean, in terms of, like, my belief system, like,

01:04:21

Ayaka

you know, like, imminence is, like, a big word that, like, comes up a lot, um, and, like, just, like, this, like, feeling, like, within myself that I am connected to, like, all of humanity, but also the natural world, like, through this force that is, like, bigger than us, and, like, also doing, like, like, I, like, I don't know, there's just, like, so many tangents, um, but,

01:04:51

Ayaka

yeah, like, doing a lot of, like, religious studies in undergrad and, like, but also, like, I recently, like, I recently went to, like, the Philadelphia Museum of Art and they have, like, a lot of, like, things, like, like, they have a lot of artifacts from, like, oh my god, what's it called? Like, cathedrals and, like, things like that and um just, like,

01:05:19

Ayaka

looking at like, I don't know, the things that have like moved like humanity to like make, it's like, I think society as a whole has like, like our art has gotten worse when we stopped believing in God, like collectively.

01:05:38

Ayaka

um Like we used to build cathedrals and now we build like, you know, like box gentrifier apartments to be destroyed in like,

01:05:50

Ayaka

20 years um and i think like we live in a like secular society like void of faith and void of hope um and so like when i see that like you know i i like i don't know i just can't help but think like

01:06:12

Ayaka

this isn't this isn't the way things should be you know um

01:06:16

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. Yeah. hundred percent. I mean, you know, I was in Montreal recently and I went to the cathedral of Notre Dame um there in Montreal and we went for mass and they don't let you take pictures.

01:06:23

Ayaka

well yeah. Great.

01:06:27

Keegan Drummond

You have to, if you're going for mass, you're there for mass. You walk in, you can't walk out during it.

01:06:30

Ayaka

right

01:06:32

Keegan Drummond

um You're there for one hour. You're sitting. um But yeah, you like sit there and every single pew, I mean, obviously the cathedral is just insane. but just this a little detail of every single pew had a face carved into the end of it, you know, or, or,

Evangelical Aesthetics and Their Impact

01:06:51

Keegan Drummond

um, I, the, the, these just certain level of intricacy that does come with sacred art. And you do see this disillusion of it. I mean, i guess you'd know better than I, but it would seem that like in the 20th century with the departure from

01:07:14

Keegan Drummond

god moving into secularism the introduction of fascism like you start to lose all these types of ostentatious um levels of detail that go into architecture and painting and music and it just becomes very um um modern in the sense of just like

01:07:45

Keegan Drummond

convenient and palatable and it achieves something.

01:07:46

Ayaka

Yeah. Yeah.

01:07:49

Keegan Drummond

Like it's a means to end design.

01:07:53

Ayaka

yeah

01:07:53

Keegan Drummond

um design i that's i was I was really curious about what your take was you know as an artist of the aesthetics of what we might call the seeker-sensitive evangelical movement. And you know for people listening, seeker-sensitive was this movement that um really comes out in the late 20th century.

01:08:16

Keegan Drummond

um figures like Bill Hybels, Willow Creek, Saddleback. You can look these up if you want, folks. But um ah creating environments in which the upper middle class can sort of approach ah evangelicalism and the christian faith in a more easy and palatable way that's i mean it's a very simple simple way um 30 000 few view of it um i'm curious like what what are your thoughts now like in your artistic journey and like looking back like what are your thoughts on the aesthetics of evangelicalism

01:08:59

Ayaka

yeah um yeah evangelicalism does have an aesthetic um and I mean it's it's very utilitarian um and like I mean it's kind of like the starbucksification of faith I guess um and like Yeah, I think but the thing that resonates with me about like cathedrals and things, like for an example, like that Dali cathedral that they're like still building, um it's in Spain, I think. um

01:09:37

Keegan Drummond

Oh, the Sagrada Familia.

01:09:37

Ayaka

But yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:38

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

01:09:39

Ayaka

um Like that is something that like transcends a single like lifetime. of like building and like work and like labor um because like of their like dedication to like eternity um and also like their like dedication to like man and like like it's like that feels so much more convincing to me that like there is like a

01:10:17

Ayaka

spirit here and and then I like you know you walk into like a big room with four walls and like a bunch of chairs and then like the graphic design isn't bad but it's just kind of like like just it's like yeah it's very derivative it looks good for the sake of just like being in this like slideshow and you're kind of like is this really like

01:10:34

Keegan Drummond

derivative

01:10:47

Ayaka

is this really it? um And like,

01:10:50

Keegan Drummond

What do you think that communicates? I'm curious because you're you're touching on, um you know, sacred art. Obviously, you know, I'm Roman Catholic and like the, like, Sagrada Familia, ah Cathedral of Notre Dame, these are institutions that have,

01:11:06

Keegan Drummond

yeah, took hundreds of years and required thousands of years of manpower, basically, to to put these things together and this imaginative spirit. um um And you're saying it's sort of communicating the sense of eternal and ah and transcendent.

01:11:26

Keegan Drummond

What do you think is communicated um in the evangelical aesthetic?

01:11:33

Ayaka

It's, I mean, it's kind of like, you better get saved, like, right now, dude. Like, you know, like, it's, or it's very just like, like, this is palatable.

01:11:37

Keegan Drummond

Interesting.

01:11:42

Ayaka

And like, you don't have to think about, like, the hard parts of like, what eternity you means. Like, you can just like, download our app, and it's sick.

01:11:54

Ayaka

And like, it'll be fun. Like, going to church will be fun. And I think that's like, um I mean, this is, like, this goes off, like, this other tangent, um you know, of, like, a personal belief of mine.

01:12:10

Ayaka

But, like, I don't think everything should be positive all the time. Like, I think the negative is, like, part of, like, the sublime experience of, like, like getting closer to something that's, like, outside of yourself.

01:12:16

Keegan Drummond

Thank you.

01:12:23

Ayaka

And I think, like like, evangelicalism is, like, I would consider it, like, an overly positive space. um just in terms of like, like it tries so hard to like be relatable to the extent that I'm like, okay, but this is actually like, and don't know, this is actually communicate like what's like really at stake here, oh which like I think, and I think that's like, it's, yeah, it's so interesting that you're like Roman Catholic now because like I also, you know,

01:13:03

Ayaka

I've come back, I, when I was, like, extremely evangelical, I was, like, those freaking Catholics, um, but then now I'm, like, that tradition has endured for a reason, and, like, like, you know, I was doing a lot of deep dives on, like, like, like, dress, like, Catholic, like, like, garments, um, and, like,

01:13:28

Keegan Drummond

Mm-hmm.

01:13:30

Ayaka

the way that like you know the pope's garments are like made like by really specific person and like that is like like the story of like how things made is like just as important as like like to the process as like all I don't know how do I explain it's like everything is so considered and I think with evangelical like visual culture it's just kind of like graphic on a t-shirt, like that's like kind of the vibe.

01:14:00

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

01:14:03

Keegan Drummond

What do you think is at stake though?

01:14:04

Ayaka

And if...

01:14:05

Keegan Drummond

Cause I think that's what you, you really touched on that. And that's kind of interesting. Like with the, uh, Catholic aesthetics there, there seems to be more at stake is what you're saying. Like, you know, you have the the concept and the sort of artistic tradition around like a memento Mori, for example, it's, you know't You wouldn't necessarily see actual human skulls lining a church you know in in the sort of evangelical tradition, but you do in the Catholic tradition.

01:14:27

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:14:33

Keegan Drummond

ah So the these huge concepts of life, a death, ah virginity, sexuality, like huge spectrums are covered. What do you think...

01:14:46

Keegan Drummond

is at stake um in the ascetic tradition of evangelicalism.

01:14:55

Ayaka

I, you know, I'm thinking about it and it's just really hard for me to like really parse through what their values really are. um Like, I don't know, evangelicalism a lot of times just felt like this revolving door of like, we just got to get people in here. like,

01:15:20

Ayaka

but like

01:15:24

Ayaka

i don't I don't know. it It just kind of was like, I guess it's a very American like way of like seeing like spirituality, I think. like that There's like

01:15:41

Ayaka

there's like, don't, yeah, I don't want to explain. It's like

01:15:50

Ayaka

quantity. is almost like more important than like the quality of the thing that's happening. um And like, yeah, I'm actually like at a loss, but like thinking about what's actually like being like communicated in those spaces right now.

01:16:10

Keegan Drummond

And you know, it's interesting. I mean, you say it's American, and I do believe that. It is, like, fundamentally um American. ah Yeah, certainly, like, capitalistic sort of... um I don't know.

01:16:30

Keegan Drummond

What is that called? Like service economy? What is that called? Like third? Wait, I don't even know. um But there is this sort of clear like American footprint around it.

01:16:43

Keegan Drummond

But at the same time, i think it's easily exported. to anywhere like i remember i was um when i was in grad school i was doing like english tutoring which is literally just like calling someone up in another country and then you just talk to them in english which is pretty fun um and i remember this one woman in

01:16:49

Ayaka

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:17:07

Keegan Drummond

India. I think she was, don't know, how do you say Hyderabad? I think that's what it is. Yeah. And she's there and she's like, oh, I go to so-and-so church.

01:17:12

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:17:19

Keegan Drummond

And i was ah you know me, I was like, oh, that's interesting. Are you like ah like a St. Thomas, Cyril Malabar Catholic, like this tradition of Catholicism that comes out of St.

01:17:30

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:17:30

Keegan Drummond

Thomas going to Kerala, India in the first century? And she's like, What? No, I go to whatever, like, New Spring, such and such, whatever, and it's like, boom, regular, like, we're playing Hillsong, we got lights, we got slides, and I'm like, bro, you are in the middle of India, and it looks exactly the same, the same thing.

01:17:39

Ayaka

Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.

01:17:45

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:17:49

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:17:54

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:17:54

Keegan Drummond

Like I'm like Googling it as I'm talking to her. I'm like, what is this? But I mean, you sort of see that blueprint everywhere. And even that, I mean, it sort of speaks to that level of, um,

01:18:09

Keegan Drummond

commodification of religion you have this thing that can get sort of tied up really neatly and sort of experienced or consumed anywhere and and maybe even disregarding the context in which it is being perceived as which is in a sense sort of colonial and weird, but seems to be like received well in those communities, like in Japan and India and Pakistan and, um you know, places that have historically struggled with um the Christian culture

01:18:35

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:18:55

Keegan Drummond

Tradition. like Why do you think though those types of like Eastern communities might resonate with something like that?

01:19:04

Ayaka

Yeah, well, I think it's, like, kind of, like, it parallels, like, the way that, like, there is, like, a globalized, like, aesthetic culture.

01:19:15

Ayaka

um Like,

01:19:19

Ayaka

you know, you could, like, there's, for an example, there's a ton of boba places in New York City. I know that they look exactly the same New other parts of the world like you know from Taiwan where it's from and then they probably have a branch in like Thailand and like it's gonna always like look exactly the same um and it's like it's a bit like Apple Store-esque where like you know exactly where you're getting every single time um and I think like the more you know like increasingly like the more globalized like the world gets and like there's also like

01:20:04

Ayaka

and it's like the whole thing, but like visual culture now is like so like homogenous because of like social media and like, you know, how like synced like visual culture is like across the globe that like, that actually doesn't going back again to like, you know, the visual culture of like Catholicism, like, like you need like quiet and reflection and like maybe like an isolated like time to like think about things for you to like really like generate like a visual language like the ones of like cathedrals.

Globalized Church Experience

01:20:50

Ayaka

um But like just now people don't even like images like get consumed like so quickly like Like if you're scrolling and you look at a photograph, like you're not really processing everything that's going on. um And so at this point, it's like, like what it, what the image now wants to do is like to catch your attention.

01:21:15

Ayaka

um And I think like evangelical aesthetics are like very good at that, where it's like, they know how to like make a graphic that's like gonna pop. And then you're gonna be like, oh, I thought this was like,

01:21:28

Ayaka

an ad for a coffee shop, but actually it's for a church. And then like that gets you through the door, um which like, you know, I think is like very like smart in some ways, but um yeah, I think like it's, it's like very consistent with the way that Starbucks is like a globally like accepted and even like celebrated like entity that like people like attach like like, you know, like positive, like sentiments towards and like, I think, just like the evangelical aesthetic is very similar words, like, really relatable, like easily digestible.

01:22:11

Ayaka

um And like, at this point, like, it could really work anywhere, because, like, everything is now kind of like looking the same and like homogenous.

01:22:24

Keegan Drummond

I mean, it's kind of interesting. like It seems like what you're saying is that the aesthetics of evangelicalism ironically signals that it's offering nothing of significant value, but maybe this sort of fleeting infatuation.

01:22:45

Keegan Drummond

like I think of some... You know, there's a devotional practice of Visio Divina, which is, ah as opposed to Lectio Divina, which is this sort of like meditation upon scripture like from Lectio.

01:23:02

Keegan Drummond

um But Visio Divina being this prayerful meditation upon typically some sort of visual art, like paintings or whatever, that And, you know, you think of some great religious artwork, like I've done this exercise with Rembrandt's Prodigal Son or... um um I think think I've done it, The Calling of St. Matthew. I can't remember who who painted it.

01:23:30

Keegan Drummond

um But it's these these artworks that are these pieces of art that um are drawing you into an even deeper reflection of the the meaning behind it.

01:23:45

Keegan Drummond

um And in so doing, like drawing you to the divine in some... I mean, that's like the whole thing, I guess, behind iconography. Did you study that at all, like iconography, when you were doing...

01:23:55

Ayaka

A little bit, yeah.

01:23:56

Keegan Drummond

okay yeah. i'm I'm not super familiar with that world, but you know it's it's been like a contentious topic in Christian history of the past. Yeah. it's it's i mean It's fascinating because it's it's like drawing you, the idea is that it's drawing you to that saint in some real tangible way and not obviously just to this like whatever oil on a canvas or whatever.

01:24:23

Keegan Drummond

don't know, that's interesting.

01:24:24

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:24:26

Keegan Drummond

that's i don't ah interesting This is an incredibly like based conversation we're having right now that you're coming off as super based. like like Catholic art, Catholic aesthetics, bagging on globalization. like I don't know. like

01:24:45

Ayaka

hi

01:24:45

Keegan Drummond

Who are you? Is this Ayaka or is this like Alex Jones or something? I don't know. like

01:24:52

Keegan Drummond

I don't know. i don't know. Just ah super based. um Yeah. Any critiques about?

01:25:02

Ayaka

I mean, i i have I have my critiques on every type of, like, system, but, um yeah, I don't know.

01:25:03

Keegan Drummond

No. Okay.

01:25:12

Ayaka

I think, like like, I think when I was in art school early on, I was, like, and, you know, my work now, it's still, like, no I'm not, like, making these monuments and, like, you know, oil paintings of, like,

01:25:31

Ayaka

like biblical stories but i think when ah do see these works like it

01:25:45

Ayaka

it's just like I don't know you you can tell that the person making it was like thinking about something other than themselves or else like you wouldn't really push yourself to make like a perfect painting you know um like I think in general in life like I think if you live for yourself that's like a closed like loop um and it doesn't like it's not very like generative at all um and I think that's like kind of the issue with like contemporary society with like most people live in this closed loop where it's like

01:26:29

Ayaka

they're just trying to generate like what like hope would be able to generate like for them, like within themselves. um And like, you know, art kind of falls flat sometimes when like, like I can see a painting and I'm like, okay, that person like just kind of didn't think about much, which is fine. Like that kind of art can exist. But I think, you know, I know some freaks and they're like,

01:26:59

Ayaka

they have their very specific like spiritual belief system and like but they're like so connected to like the divine and like when they are working and like talking about things and moving through things like you can really tell that it's like not really about them and like it's like a similar thing to like cathedrals that take like hundreds of years of building like they're making work like sure like in the moment they're just drawing something because it feels good to them but at the end of the day like they know that like what they're making is like connected to like this legacy of like humanity that like will transcend their like more mortal like life on Earth. um

01:27:43

Ayaka

And that's like what makes things meaningful. um So I don't know. That was like a tangent. But I think, yeah.

01:27:50

Keegan Drummond

No, I think I'm, tangents are welcome. um I don't know. I think I've kind of addressed a lot of the questions I wanted to ask you. I mean, is there anything that you, you I mean, I guess you have, you you, you, it sounds like you've listened to, I'm i'm surprised that you listened to the episode with my brother and whatever. That's awesome.

01:28:08

Keegan Drummond

um I don't know. Was there anything you were expecting to talk about that we didn't or talk about or touch on that you wanted to touch on and we didn't talk on, touch on?

01:28:18

Ayaka

I mean, I think, I mean, there's like the obvious things of like, you know, i think there was a lot of like, like,

01:28:32

Ayaka

trauma and, like, feelings of, like, rejection that, like, happen in the church. But I also almost think, like, that's just, like, a universal, like, part of being, like, 14, you know?

01:28:44

Ayaka

um And I think it was, like, obviously magnified through, like, the lens of feeling like my soul was on the line. um But, like, I don't know. It's funny. You're, like,

01:29:02

Ayaka

it it looked it It looked like exactly what it was, which was that we were all in middle school, high school, trying to figure out what it means to exist at all. um And then, like, just trying our best.

01:29:21

Ayaka

And sometimes our best was, like, not that good. um but that's, like, totally fine. Because that's, like, what the whole, like... purpose of like salvation is I guess um but like yeah it just it was fun I mean it's there's like things where I do have a lot of people where I'm at a point in my life where i feel like I could speak to them um because of like a lot of the work I've done personally to like kind of get to a point where i genuinely like have forgiven lot of people who

01:29:58

Ayaka

felt like i I felt like had caused me harm. um But there are a lot of people where I feel like I couldn't have spoken to like five years ago. um

01:30:08

Keegan Drummond

I wanted to ask you about that. Okay, this is something actually like as you were logging on, I was trying to find it. This might be a bit sensitive, but you, I remember you posted something. I don't even remember what it was.

01:30:20

Keegan Drummond

um But I remember the people I was with When you posted it, i guess the vibe, and I don't even know if I like saw it or not or whatever, because I don't even remember what it said.

01:30:33

Keegan Drummond

But the vibe was sort of like, I'm moving on from this part of my life and these relationships. And I think in the moment, i remember being with two people and they were like, oh, like I guess that's it.

01:30:50

Keegan Drummond

like That was our relationship with her. And it's sort of gone. i don't do you remember that and i don't know i was trying to like dig it up and i don't know if it was like what era that would have been but i remember them even posting on like your facebook or something or trying to dm you afterward and they're like we still love you whatever um i was just kind of curious about like

01:31:04

Ayaka

yeah

01:31:16

Ayaka

I kind of like ambiently remember this but I don't remember it like crystal clear but I do I mean there was like a really big like chunk of my life where I felt like a ton of like resentment um and like

01:31:30

Keegan Drummond

Okay.

01:31:34

Ayaka

I think that resentment was like, like, I think it was like necessary for me to like completely like step away from people for a time in my life to be able to like, let them back in again.

01:31:49

Ayaka

um but yeah, i like, i I don't remember what I said. i do kind of remember something like that happening.

01:31:56

Keegan Drummond

okay

01:31:57

Ayaka

um But I think still probably was more under the sentiment of like, I don't agree with certain ethics of like this particular dogma.

01:32:12

Ayaka

um And like, yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean, i was I definitely like was very angry about things um and for a while like felt extremely closed off to like any ideas of like,

01:32:33

Ayaka

faith but that was like connected to my like resentment towards like people um but once I was able to like disconnect like not disconnect but you know kind of parse through like what I was actually exactly feeling resentment towards which was just like how I was like treated certain environments um but not necessarily like

01:32:38

Keegan Drummond

Mm-hmm.

01:33:00

Ayaka

my relationship to like spirituality like that wasn't the problem it was more just like I was in a really intensely like surveilled like community um that brought me like so much joy and also like I think that's what made it difficult was like like this you know we had such a cast of characters and it was like so fun um and

01:33:24

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

01:33:27

Ayaka

I truly like, like, there are certain friendships that are, like, foundational to, like, my understanding of love. um But it's sad because I think, like,

01:33:41

Ayaka

there were also, like, a lot of things that happened that, like, kind of made me feel like it was circumstantial to, like, not, it like like, it wasn't about me as a person that they, like,

01:33:56

Ayaka

wanted to connect with but like it was more just like a circumstance of like the condition of my faith or something um and that's like what felt unfortunate but I think everyone grew up a little and now we can like be friends and like hold like space for like ambivalence and like everyone have different like like belief systems but for a while it just like really felt like you were in or you were out um

01:34:27

Ayaka

And that was like really hard for me.

01:34:30

Keegan Drummond

Yeah, I mean, you know, as I've been doing these episodes, ah some people have approached me and pointed out that, oh, it's kind of clear that you have an ax to grind.

01:34:42

Keegan Drummond

And i don't I don't necessarily have an axe to grind with any individual person. um I want everyone to to like come on the show at some point.

01:34:55

Keegan Drummond

like I really do. I really hope like every single leader, every single pastor, I would love for them to to come on and to talk to them.

01:34:57

Ayaka

Mm-hm.

01:35:03

Keegan Drummond

I do clearly like have an axe to grind because I am fairly uncharitable. But like I think I'm very uncharitable towards like these instance institutions that foster this culture of um surveillance and policing gender and sexuality and purity and um like toxic spirituality.

01:35:36

Keegan Drummond

like masquerading as sort of like guardianship like it's it's i i think i do but like i don't know like i think it's yeah and i hope that's how it comes off to everyone but but it is this like system honestly it's like a systemic thing that like i'm surprised still resonates with people and that's why i want to talk to people who are like still in it because it's like how are you like still in this like i'm

01:35:42

Ayaka

and

01:36:04

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:36:06

Keegan Drummond

I don't get it. i don't like how, like and it's,

01:36:13

Ayaka

life I think a lot, i I'm trying to recall like what kept me in that were like maybe negative feelings I had. And, you know, a lot of it was like, like a very like culty headspace where like, if I lose this, I have nothing because my whole life and world was like built upon like in this community with these people and I think like especially for i mean everyone experiences fear but especially for people who maybe like don't have like a strong like familial like foundation or like you know maybe they have like a complicated like relationship to family or whatever like I think when you lose like

01:37:09

Ayaka

that community like it can really just like feel like it's the end of your life um and I remember feeling really really scared um of like leaving and like I was so unsure of like how I was ever gonna just like find like people again um and like also feeling really like scared and like avoidant when I would like run into like people I grew up in ministry with in public when I was like home from school because I was like i like so desired like to feel that closeness to you again but I know that there are things that like you would immediately condemn that like would prohibit you from like just seeing me in the same way that you used to and so like

01:38:07

Ayaka

I think if that's like too uncomfortable and like too scary, like you're not gonna, like no matter how bad it gets, like you might just never leave. um And I think like maybe that's like one thing that I would like want to encourage people to do is like, you know, like not like life is serious, but it's not that serious.

01:38:33

Ayaka

And like, I think you ought to, like just try you know like very simply just try and I think like I think your trajectory is like so like cool for me to watch just because like you know like the yugu lutheran is that correct okay

01:38:57

Keegan Drummond

Yeah, yeah. I grew up Lutheran, and like just to like contextualize it, I grew up in a specific denomination within Lutheranism, because Lutheranism is fairly liberal, depending on what.

01:39:07

Keegan Drummond

I grew up in the most conservative ah synod, they're called, of Lutheranism, where ah you couldn't pray with other Christians, including other types of Lutherans, and there was a fundamental belief that the papacy itself was the Antichrist.

01:39:19

Ayaka

like Wow.

01:39:24

Keegan Drummond

So... yeah yeah so that that's like just to contextualize that yeah ah while i was in grad school i was like um just there was a lot of things i feel that um

01:39:26

Ayaka

Wow. Okay. Yeah. So you were like Lutheran and then you were in an evangelical context. And then when did you go into like Roman Catholic tradition?

01:39:52

Keegan Drummond

It was actually my devotion to scripture that led me to become Roman Catholic. Like I felt like in order for scripture to make sense to me,

01:40:00

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:40:05

Keegan Drummond

um I needed to become Catholic. And I mean, you kind actually in the beginning, you sort of touched on it. Like the the idea of interpretation really became, um that issue became very pertinent for me because the idea that scripture is this lone ah authority in one's life is extremely problematic because what happens ultimately is that the interpretation of scripture becomes authoritative.

Host's Spiritual Journey

01:40:37

Keegan Drummond

Like, scripture is a book, right?

01:40:37

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:40:39

Keegan Drummond

Like, I can pick it up, and um outside of a context, it makes you no sense, really.

01:40:39

Ayaka

yeah

01:40:48

Keegan Drummond

um And that's what I kind of began to realize, is that, like... um

01:40:57

Keegan Drummond

This scripture functions, and and this is it's there's a there's a theological philosophical tradition. For anyone interested, it's called post-liberalism. It came out of Yale Divinity School.

01:41:10

Keegan Drummond

um But this idea that scripture functions as a script to be acted out, um and And what I realized was that, and it was really my my devotion to the Hebrew Bible, because when i was in grad school, I was i was particularly interested in Hebrew Bible. I was i was studying Hebrew. i was doing Hebrew exegesis. And I was thinking that I was going to pursue like a ph d in Hebrew Bible. i was...

01:41:39

Keegan Drummond

taking like extracurricular Hebrew reading courses. Like I wasn't that good and my writing sucked.

01:41:42

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:41:46

Keegan Drummond

um But like, I don't know. i was like coming in from Hawaii, had no idea what academia was like. So I just like, oh yeah, people get PhDs in Old Testament, whatever.

01:41:57

Keegan Drummond

um But like I realized that the Hebrew Bible like belongs in a liturgical tradition, like a worshiping community, and it's meant to be constantly acted out in practice within that community.

01:42:06

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:42:17

Keegan Drummond

And it's clear that that's how it's written. um

01:42:22

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:42:23

Keegan Drummond

and um And, you know, I'm like studying scripture in this sort of post-liberal tradition. And I start to think about like, oh, does the entire Bible function that way? Like including the New Testament.

01:42:42

Keegan Drummond

And it's like, okay, well, what do you do with a passage like John six, you know, Christ saying, unless you eat of my body and drink my blood, you'll have no part in me. And everyone leaves.

01:42:54

Keegan Drummond

It's like, well, like, why do they leave? Well, it seems like pretty early on the Christian tradition believed in the real presence of the Eucharist or, you know, like they didn't think of it being like symbolic or something like in the opening of Revelation, John talks about having a vision on the Lord's day And it's like, okay, what's the Lord's day? Well, that's the ah Sunday.

01:43:24

Keegan Drummond

That's the mass. Like he's celebrating mass and he begins to see this vision of heaven and earth colliding. And that's what's taking part in the liturgical tradition of the Catholic church.

01:43:34

Keegan Drummond

And I'm like, okay, like, I don't know. like It came to this point where I'm like, okay, this is true. like this is like or and Not necessarily that it's true.

01:43:47

Keegan Drummond

This is the truest form of Christianity. like it's It's this.

01:43:50

Ayaka

Mm hmm. Mm

01:43:51

Keegan Drummond

like this is If you're going to be Christian, this is what you have to be.

01:43:54

Ayaka

hmm.

01:43:55

Keegan Drummond

um

01:43:55

Ayaka

Mm

01:43:56

Keegan Drummond

I could be this or it could be nothing at all.

01:43:59

Keegan Drummond

And honestly, like you know that thought crossed my mind because I've like devoted my whole life to ministry and to like further education in ministry.

01:43:59

Ayaka

hmm.

01:44:12

Keegan Drummond

And then it's like, oh, wait, um like, like now that's getting pulled out from under me because it's not like i'm going to be a priest. I've been married for, at that point, seven years.

01:44:24

Keegan Drummond

So like, um ah like, okay, yeah. Well, this is true. So I'm going to, I'm just going to commit to it. And I don't really know anything outside of, um, like my Christian faith.

01:44:38

Keegan Drummond

and so Um, I'm just going to go all in. And that was basically it. Um, so yeah, in a

Risk and Conviction in Faith

01:44:47

Keegan Drummond

nutshell.

01:44:47

Ayaka

Yeah, I mean, I think that's like, like, I think that there was a lot of like risk taking in that process as well. And like, you know, being like honest about like, you're like following your conviction about things, um which is like, you know, something I struggled with a lot in the beginning when I like was in ministry where like, like I was maybe more similar to you in the sense that I was like, I'm so dead serious about this.

01:45:22

Ayaka

um And, like, I want to, like, interpret this correctly, um which I think, like, it's funny that my tangent became, like, so also see. um Turns out I just really like reading.

01:45:36

Ayaka

um No. But also, like, and but then there's, like, also people who are just, like, like, in ministry or, like, in faith or, like, more of just, like,

Monastic Life vs. Modern Society

01:45:51

Ayaka

a vibe.

01:45:51

Ayaka

situation which is like totally fine but I think like it is hard when like you're all kind of clumped into a room and you're like okay well we're all neutralized and like all the same and we all should behave in the same way because we're like reading the same thing um and yeah like I think like don't know I don't know if I would really do it but there are moments where I'm like Well, wish I was born like a few hundred years ago and I could have just been like sitting in a monastery, like making like an an illuminated manuscript and just like really thinking about things, you know, like, and like trying to like make this like visually ornate like thing, um which is funny because like, I think in my own way, like that's what I end up doing.

01:46:29

Keegan Drummond

for help.

01:46:42

Ayaka

um But like, like I think like that kind of focus is like something that's like really lacking in like contemporary society. um And so I don't know what the answer is, but like people have to focus on something.

01:47:04

Ayaka

And I think like, if not faith, then something else, but I just don't know what that, like, I don't know what is like,

01:47:16

Ayaka

What is important to people? I guess that's like something that I struggle with and I think I always struggle with.

01:47:21

Keegan Drummond

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like the, not to be trite, but like the Bob Dylan song, like you got to serve somebody.

Desire for Greater Ideals

01:47:27

Keegan Drummond

It might be the devil or it might be the Lord, right?

01:47:27

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:47:29

Keegan Drummond

Like there's this like

01:47:30

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:47:31

Keegan Drummond

um this idea of the, what is it? The homo religios or like homo religio, like some like this sort of innate desire, innate nature within what it is to be human to ultimately assign worth and you know attention whatever value um to something and so like uh you know and maybe it's a false dichotomy i don't know but it it would seem that like you you you choose the you know the good um or at the what's good true and beautiful um or you know

01:48:12

Keegan Drummond

um you know And even then, it's like you're you you are everyone's in pursuit of those things, but it's just like little off, a little off. Everyone's pursuing God, even...

01:48:22

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:48:23

Keegan Drummond

everyone's pursuing god like even amidst sin you know um they just don't know like i don't know i mean i think that's very uh to mystic you know in the same vein of aquinas um that we're all trying to worship god but we just maybe don't know how

01:48:30

Ayaka

Right.

Monastic Non-linear Life

01:48:46

Ayaka

Yeah, and I think like people like I don't know. Like, when you think about, like, the life of, like, you know, a monk or a person that inhabits, like, a monastery, like, they're not thinking of their life linearly.

01:49:05

Ayaka

They're not, like, like, the they're just kind of, like, doing the thing, like, every day. um And, like, but I think now, like,

01:49:22

Ayaka

there's like this timeline that like everyone thinks they have to follow and like they get so distracted by the timeline that like they can become completely like unaware of the fact that like you know in this life like everyone's actually just like looking for something um and like trying to like reach towards something um and i don't know where I was going with that but um yeah it's it

Discomfort in Spiritual Growth

01:49:52

Ayaka

I don't know.

01:49:52

Ayaka

I think feeling lost is okay. And I think like, even within like ministry, that was something that was like, not always like embraced, which was like the feeling lost and like questioning.

01:50:09

Ayaka

And I think like, yeah.

01:50:10

Keegan Drummond

It's uncomfortable. I mean, when you brought up monasteries just now, like I um yeah um i think two years ago, I and i was working ah for the Catholic Church and I was just sort of having a crisis. I really like hated where I was at and i the relationships were getting strained, whatever.

01:50:27

Keegan Drummond

um So I spent some time, i spent like a week in a Trappist monastery and um Trappists are, you know, like...

01:50:32

Ayaka

A lot of the dramas.

01:50:35

Keegan Drummond

the trappist yeah thomas merton my boy um trappist are you know the most sort of like these are these are um

01:50:45

Keegan Drummond

the they What is the word? Oh my gosh. i feel like I'm like so out of like Catholic spaces right now. But you don't leave. You're here. This is where you are. This is where you live.

01:50:55

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:50:55

Keegan Drummond

This is where you sleep. is where you eat, where you work, where you're going to die eventually, where you're going be buried.

01:50:59

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:51:00

Keegan Drummond

um like This is where you are. And when I went there... It's very uncomfortable. like I remember um also the the the design of it. I was at Mebkin Abbey, which is ah actually the guy who made Time and Life magazine. He actually like donated a bunch of money to the Trappists, inspired by Merton.

01:51:23

Keegan Drummond

and ended up ah donating money to make it happen, whatever. Not even Catholic, really interesting. um But I'm there. It's very like austere. It's very plain. It ah is kind of in that like modern, brutalist thing, vein. It's very uncomfortable.

01:51:40

Keegan Drummond

But like this sense of time and... time and comfort, discomfort, it's it's weird. um You know, the this one French theologian refers to, like, those monasteries as, like, the thin place.

01:51:50

Ayaka

Mm-hmm.

01:51:59

Keegan Drummond

It's the the place that, you know, where, like, heaven and earth meet.

01:51:59

Ayaka

Right.

01:52:02

Keegan Drummond

But, like, I don't know. Like, heaven, people have this, like, idealized version of heaven, but heaven is so, like, confronting. It's so uncomfortable because you're faced with, like,

01:52:11

Ayaka

me

01:52:14

Keegan Drummond

holiness and pure divine power and that's like uncomfortable like that's because you find yourself in that and you don't really know what to do and i was so like uncomfortable there the entire time i really did not enjoy it uh i was looking for every excuse to leave honestly um and um i eventually did i left like a day early i was so like

01:52:16

Ayaka

right

01:52:36

Ayaka

here

01:52:42

Keegan Drummond

oh get me out of here but like i don't know that's that like that's that like desire in people like the stillness the quiet the solitude the yeah it's i don't know but the regiment

01:52:44

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:52:57

Keegan Drummond

They also don't talk. That's kind of interesting.

01:52:59

Ayaka

Yeah, they don't talk.

01:53:00

Keegan Drummond

you don't talk really, know, that's, that's yeah.

01:53:00

Ayaka

yeah They all wear the same thing. Yeah.

01:53:05

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. um It was, it's just a, it's a really, it's cool. They don't eat meat. That was no.

01:53:10

Ayaka

They don't even eat. Yeah.

01:53:12

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

01:53:12

Ayaka

They build everything.

01:53:13

Keegan Drummond

They're, they would Yeah. What's that? They build everything?

01:53:16

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:53:17

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. i These guys, they're old. They're old I don't know if they're building anything. They're farming mushrooms.

01:53:22

Ayaka

Yeah. Yeah.

01:53:24

Keegan Drummond

That's the thing. they We need to pray for vocations. Everyone needs to pray for vocations to make sure they get people. um there No, they're great.

01:53:34

Keegan Drummond

um But yeah, it's like the the regiment of it. I'm like, I don't know how you like build relationships there. you wake They wake up at like three.

01:53:45

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:53:45

Keegan Drummond

i don't know what that was all about um i think i got up at like five i got up for like the later prayers because the call to prayer was at like three and then you go back to bed i'm like no i'll just i'll just skip that one we're gonna just do the start our day off super early anyway ah yeah it was it was interesting yeah but um

01:53:46

Ayaka

I mean...

01:53:50

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:53:55

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:53:59

Ayaka

Yeah.

01:54:03

Ayaka

I think that discomfort is, like, something that, like, I feel like lately in my life, if I hit a wall of discomfort, I've been trying to just, like, sit with it.

Value of Ascetic Traditions

01:54:14

Ayaka

um because I think like I've just in life been trained to like be like oh I'm uncomfortable I need to like do something about it um and I think like the traditions of like you know like I mean in an extreme sense like the Trappist but just like I think a lot of like more traditional like Christian like um what's it called ritual like it forces you to be in a state of like discomfort and i think like maybe evangelicalism like lacks a little bit of that and maybe that's like and I think a lot of my life I was like in the state of like thinking that everything needed to be really positive all the time because I had like just come from like an evangelical context um but then yeah you go

01:55:13

Ayaka

and, like, you see the way that, like, monks live and, like, you know, other, like, Christian traditions, like, there's a lot of discomfort and, like, everything's, like, not always great, you know, and, like, a lot of, like, and eschatism is, like, a big part of, like, that tradition, um and, like, I don't know, like, I think maybe evangelicalism has this thing where, like,

01:55:23

Keegan Drummond

Yeah.

01:55:41

Ayaka

it's like, you can still be, you can still, like, have an iPhone and look at TikTok and, like, also, like, have salvation, and which, not saying that's, like, not true, but I think, like, if, I don't know, like, if you're someone who maybe is, like, much more interested in, like, really understanding, like, what it means, like, what, like, transcendence is, and, like, you know,

01:56:10

Ayaka

like maybe you can't be watching TikTok for five hours a day. Like, you know, like, don't know. Like, it's it is interesting. Like, i think evangelical, like, culture just, like, wants to make Christianity cool. But, like, maybe it's, like, not, like, cool in the sense that, like, contemporary, like, people understand cool to be. And, like, but also, like, maybe that's okay.

01:56:40

Ayaka

um Like, I don't think everything needs to be cool. Like, something, like, can be kind of, like, weird and, like, conditional and, like, make you feel a little uncomfortable or, like, take you out of, like, your daily, like, headspace. um So I'm not saying everyone should be a monk, but I am saying that, like, you know, there should be a little bit, a little part of, like, that ritual in every person's life, I think.

01:57:09

Keegan Drummond

I think it's interesting. The ascetic tradition really seems to be resonating with a lot of folks. I know this is kind of going long. I'm sorry, everyone, ah but I'm really enjoying our conversation. and If you have to leave, that's fine too.

01:57:18

Ayaka

I mean, you can cut it down, yeah.

01:57:21

Keegan Drummond

um But like, I'm like, um yeah, ascetics, ascetical traditions really are are kind of interesting. I actually knew someone who is on doing this one. It's kind of a famous like Catholic tradition.

01:57:33

Keegan Drummond

fasting challenge it's called exodus 40 super cringe rad trad male energy um but people were on it who weren't catholic that were just interested in sort of ascetic principles like you do cold showers you work out you it's it's these weird i don't know it's if exodus 40 wants to sponsor this podcast though by all means but um

01:57:45

Ayaka

Oh, interesting, yeah.

01:57:49

Ayaka

Yes.

01:58:00

Keegan Drummond

um No, i um I think it's interesting because young people are really gravitating towards Catholicism and and Orthodoxy and traditional Protestantism as of a late.

01:58:14

Keegan Drummond

And um I feel mixed about that because i feel they're gravitating towards it because of these sorts of political ideologies that these traditions have

01:58:29

Ayaka

a

01:58:29

Keegan Drummond

kind of been co-opted by unfortunately um like it's weird um to see like catholic priests and bishops sort of like align themselves with certain like conservative figures um because i just i don't know it's like i don't think it is conservative or liberal it's its own thing um and i don't know that's just unfortunate but like

01:58:31

Ayaka

Yeah. Yeah.

01:58:51

Ayaka

Right.

01:58:56

Keegan Drummond

I wish that people were coming into it because of what's beautiful. And I think the weird thing is that like the rituals and the asceticism and like the tradition is the beautiful thing, like weirdly enough, but like you, I feel like you have to come to it through a different way. Otherwise you're just going to be like,

01:59:24

Keegan Drummond

I don't know, like like traditional Latin mass. like It's like you can come to it because you're trying to be like super superiority complex or whatever, or you can come to it because it's like beautiful and it resonates with you and it's otherworldly, you know?

01:59:37

Ayaka

Yeah. Yeah.

01:59:38

Keegan Drummond

And it's like I think that's like the unfortunate thing about like traditional Christianity today, like the the how people are coming into it.

01:59:48

Keegan Drummond

I mean, I'm glad, but it's like, it's just like I'm ambivalent, you know?

01:59:54

Ayaka

Yeah. it and is I do know a lot of people who they're like a really particular kind of for lack of a better word like bro.

02:00:05

Ayaka

that have like really entered like that Catholic faith. And I also, I'm just kind of like, I don't know what your intentions are there, but um um i guess I'm glad you're like finding something. um yeah, it is like, i don't know.

02:00:26

Ayaka

its Well, it's like goes to this other tangent that like we definitely, don't have time for but it's just like because I think traditionally right now like men don't feel the like they don't feel like they have the permission to like express themselves emotionally like a psychoticism seems to be like a outlet for them to like express something or like you know like

02:01:03

Ayaka

like that gives them meaning but like maybe everyone should just be hanging out more I don't know like it's it is like this weird like I flip-flop where like everyone to chill and focus on one thing more but also on the other hand i'm like what happened to hanging out and I think that's maybe something that I really loved about evangelical culture was like we had we were just we're just hanging out for hanging out's sake and like

02:01:30

Keegan Drummond

It was just a hanging out for like six years

Community and Togetherness in Evangelical Culture

02:01:32

Keegan Drummond

straight. I mean, like...

02:01:32

Ayaka

Yeah, we were literally all just hanging out for six years straight. And that was it. Like, that was something I absolutely loved about that.

02:01:41

Keegan Drummond

Yeah. Maybe that's a good place to end it. Okay. I'll i'll stop this and then um thank you for your time. You do have to hang around for a second so this uploads. But okay.

02:01:51

Ayaka

Oh, yeah, no worries.

02:01:53

Keegan Drummond

All right. See everyone.