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#4 My Friend My Brother - Quinn Drummond
35 Plays8 months ago
Dating at church, burning out volunteers, and whether pastors should earn a living wage --Keegan and Quinn tackle some big questions about life in evangelical churches.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Keegan Drummond
Okay. All right. We're live.
Recording Challenges in Florida
00:00:02
Keegan Drummond
This is, um, the Chris crustiest, uh, podcast we've done so far. If you're watching this on video, I am in a bedroom on a bed holding a microphone.
00:00:18
Keegan Drummond
We've got my brother Quinn. I'm probably too loud too. I'm looking at this audio go crazy way too loud. Probably. So sorry about that. Um,
00:00:29
Keegan Drummond
I'm in Florida with Quinn. I thought we'd be able to do this in person and he's literally 20 feet away. Um, and we couldn't figure out, I couldn't figure out the audio. I thought I could just do it. Quinn pointed out there'd be echo if we did it the way I thought we were going to do it and he was right. So you know He's just going to be 20 feet away. and its just It's just hilarious.
00:00:55
Keegan Drummond
ah but so yeah This is just crusty. It's on me.
Post-Dinner Regrets
00:01:00
Keegan Drummond
um i just ate soft serve. I feel terrible. I feel so bad right now.
00:01:05
Quinn
Same.
00:01:06
Keegan Drummond
Uh, yeah, like that, just like it went in and then it went right out. We just had Italian and I had a carbonara and then soft serve afterward. And, um, I feel so rough right now.
00:01:19
Keegan Drummond
This is crazy.
00:01:20
Quinn
i Probably the ice cream and the dairy from the the Italian.
00:01:24
Keegan Drummond
That was crazy. And then there was wine at dinner.
00:01:26
Quinn
yeah
00:01:27
Keegan Drummond
That was crazy. so yeah, I'm just, I'm just not feeling great, but this is the day we have to do this because there's so much going on because you get married at the end of the week.
00:01:37
Quinn
I am.
00:01:37
Keegan Drummond
Congratulations.
00:01:38
Quinn
Thank Thank you. bank
00:01:38
Keegan Drummond
Um, yeah, so I guess, I
Dating Outside the Church
00:01:42
Keegan Drummond
don't know. It's just kind of funny, right? Cause like, obviously I know how you guys met and everything, but, um, it's, it's interesting.
00:01:52
Keegan Drummond
I mean, you, um, end up dating someone, you know, down the line outside of your own church, outside of sort of your own circle.
00:02:06
Keegan Drummond
Is that kind of weird for you? i mean, did you expect that in the past or,
00:02:14
Quinn
I mean, i did think I was probably going to find somebody in the church like, hey, you know, I'm going to find somebody that's in the same church that we went to and we're to do ministry together. But after ah while, it's just kind of like, well, maybe this isn't going to happen this way.
00:02:32
Quinn
And then when I moved out of Hawaii, I started trying to do like online dating. So I'd like did hinge and I would go on dates with people that we're Christian or are Christian and we'd meet up at restaurants and whatnot. And at first, yeah, it's a, it's a little weird, but after a while it's, it's become very normal.
00:02:56
Quinn
Like the last podcast, that's how Shani, how she met her husband. So it's becoming more normal, even in our, and my, my fiance's couple counseling. ah The counselor said that that's how a lot of people now that he's been counseling, that's how they've been meeting. So it's becoming more normal that,
00:03:15
Quinn
Yeah, there's people that are Christian and not really dating within the same church that they go to, but they're dating outside of that in these online spaces, basically.
00:03:27
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I, so I don't really,
Using Filters in Online Dating
00:03:30
Keegan Drummond
that's the thing. I don't know how any of this goes. I, I like just found out there's all these filters when you go on dating apps, right? Cause I mean, I got married very young at 18 in 2014. So it's kind of, i don't know. I mean, it's, but and I mean, I'm obviously I'm got married before you would typically go on an app, you know, like in your twenties or when you go off to college or whatever. And then, yeah,
00:03:57
Keegan Drummond
I mean, it's also 2014, so it wasn't as much a thing, I don't think. Obviously, there's like eHarmony or something, but I don't know. So there's all these like filters. So are you having to like expand your filter as things go wrong or right? Are having to change criteria on it? i don't even know how that works.
00:04:19
Quinn
Yeah, so you can set specific filters kind of based on what it is that you're looking for, just that way you know that you're going to be compatible with somebody. So like one of the big ones is like religion. So you can set, like, oh, what religion preference do you prefer this person to be? Or what ah political...
00:04:39
Quinn
ah preference do you have? And you can like choose as many of the preferences as you want and it filters out the ones that aren't in like the ones that they the other person would select. you can it would basically eliminate those based on the ones that you select.
Preferences in Dating Apps
00:04:54
Keegan Drummond
Okay, you don't have to say, but how many did you did you put?
00:04:54
Quinn
I let's
00:04:58
Quinn
ah i think I probably did about maybe three three filters, maybe four.
00:05:08
Keegan Drummond
like religion, politics, and...
00:05:11
Quinn
Religion, politics, distance. And then um as far as ah drug use, it was another one.
00:05:18
Keegan Drummond
Oh, interesting. That's a thing?
00:05:20
Quinn
Yeah.
00:05:22
Keegan Drummond
Whoa. Whoa. I guess that makes sense that like if you're not open to that at all then you probably wouldn't want to be with someone who's doing that yeah and it's like their whole personality or something like I just watched the movie um I just watched the movie uh shoot
00:05:34
Quinn
Yeah. yeah
00:05:46
Keegan Drummond
it's like It's like the last day of school and it's ah they're they're getting into trouble. And gosh, what is it called? Something with like Ben Affleck's in it a young Ben Affleck's in it.
00:06:01
Quinn
yeah it's
00:06:01
Keegan Drummond
And the girl from White Lotus, tsunami, she's in it. um I forget, but they were that that was like a thing. There was like a code word with if if you use drugs, it was like, are you cool?
00:06:16
Quinn
Huh. That movie's not ringing. It's an older Ben Affleck movie.
00:06:20
Keegan Drummond
It's like in the 90s, but that was the thing.
00:06:22
Quinn
Okay.
00:06:23
Keegan Drummond
They'd ask if you smoked weed, but they'd say, are you cool? So you were you were literally going around Florida and asking women if they weren't cool, basically.
00:06:34
Quinn
but basically
00:06:34
Keegan Drummond
you were You weren't cool. Are you Christian? is it like do they get specific about Christian? Because i mean there's probably like people who are like...
Christian Dating Dynamics
00:06:45
Quinn
Yeah. So, I mean, as far as that goes, I mean, it's been a while. I can't remember. I know you can say like, ah like Catholic or you can say like Christian.
00:06:58
Keegan Drummond
Interesting.
00:06:58
Quinn
Like, yeah.
00:07:01
Keegan Drummond
Huh. I guess, yeah. I mean, that would be a thing, right? like That would be a sticking point for like Catholics and Protestants to like date outside of that. But yeah. Okay. I've always wondered about that. I heard you could filter by height.
00:07:14
Quinn
Yes. So you can filter by height as well. that i like I wasn't like all that picky just as long as they weren't that much taller. like I wasn't all that picky.
00:07:23
Keegan Drummond
Is it a spectrum or is it like you have to be under or over this?
00:07:28
Quinn
you can say, oh, i don't I prefer somebody to be max like this short and max this high.
00:07:36
Keegan Drummond
Oh, that's interesting.
00:07:37
Quinn
So it's... yeah
00:07:42
Keegan Drummond
Interesting. Do you feel like you could miss out on someone if you like, what if you like, what if you what if you were a little open to someone who's like a little bit more liberal than you?
00:07:54
Keegan Drummond
Like, or or is it just like, do you have to be like, okay, that's just off the table?
00:07:54
Quinn
um
00:07:58
Quinn
Well, it's it's pretty like... It's pretty... what What's the word? I mean, open as far as... like this preference. So because, and as far as what you can choose, as far as the political spectrum, so you can say conservative, liberal, other, and, or ah some, I can't think of all of them, but basically it's like conservative, liberal, other, and like, you can choose like different
Seriousness in Relationship Seeking
00:08:25
Quinn
ones.
00:08:25
Quinn
You can say how big of a like deal breaker is this? And you can, yeah.
00:08:28
Keegan Drummond
Oh.
00:08:32
Quinn
And plus two, like other people would be able to like you, even though it's outside of your preference, you'll still be able to see those as well.
00:08:32
Keegan Drummond
That's interesting.
00:08:42
Keegan Drummond
I see.
00:08:43
Quinn
Because they may have a little different set of preferences and they can still like you and they'll show up, but um then you can decide for yourself if it's like, um maybe I'll give it a shot.
00:08:43
Keegan Drummond
Okay.
00:08:54
Keegan Drummond
Oh, okay. Yeah, that... Then then you're kind of then you're kind of open. You're open to maybe, and maybe a little mix in there. You know, if you get a girl who's just like a little bit more like, i not as politically aligned or religiously aligned, you could just be like, yeah, just try it out. See how it goes, whatever.
00:09:14
Quinn
yeah
00:09:16
Keegan Drummond
did any Did anyone come up like that or not really?
00:09:19
Quinn
ah Not really, because as far as i think at the age that I was in, like a lot of people knew what they wanted. Plus, you can say, like how serious are you looking?
00:09:31
Quinn
And if you're like looking for something serious, then people aren't just going waste their time dating somebody that is like they don't really care.
00:09:31
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:09:40
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:09:41
Quinn
like as far as what their preferences are. So you can also set like a preference like, oh, how serious are you like wanting to be? I guess that's another one that I said, like how serious I was looking for something serious.
00:09:52
Quinn
and But people are like, oh, I just want like a one night stand or I just want something casual or whatever.
00:09:58
Keegan Drummond
yeah No, that makes sense. you It's kind of interesting, right? Because you can't have that conversation in the traditional places that you would meet someone, right? Like going into church where someone might ideally meet someone. It's not like you can have those sorts of um preferences beforehand, right?
00:10:23
Keegan Drummond
Like when you're talking to someone, if you want to go on a date with this person
Expectations on Dating Apps
00:10:28
Keegan Drummond
and like a person might want to go on a date with someone, but the priorities just don't align and one person's in it more than the other person.
00:10:28
Quinn
Right.
00:10:38
Keegan Drummond
So it seems that you could have those types of instances, whereas like
00:10:39
Quinn
right
00:10:44
Keegan Drummond
With apps, like, with I mean, with you, with Shawnee, it seems that you could kind of just lay it all out on the line and then kind of whatever happens, happens in that. And the expectations are sort of set already.
00:11:00
Quinn
Yeah, and I think that kind of helps too because I mean also like in a chirp setting or just in a setting where you meet somebody in person like in the standard sense, like you don't know that going into it. So and like you may have invested x amount of time, like talking to somebody or trying to cultivate something.
00:11:23
Quinn
But then you just find out like, whoa, this is not what I'm looking at. But you've already you're kind of invested in some way. Whereas like on a dating app, you kind of put yourself out there already like, hey, this is me.
00:11:38
Quinn
This is what I'm about. And basically you can, it's just um the expectation, like you said, the expectation is already set for both.
00:11:47
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, that's interesting. I guess. i So did you have do you feel like you had that experience? It just ah dating in a traditional format, like at church or whatever, like you felt like the priorities just weren't aligned?
00:12:01
Quinn
Well, I, I don't know it's so much to that just, there's more pressure, i guess, to make it work because like, it's your, there's a heavier emphasis on like, basically what, what's the word?
00:12:20
Quinn
um I mean, yes, you want to be intentional, but at the same time, you want to also date somebody to make sure like, hey hey, let's see if this is something that would work out.
Influence of Religious Upbringing
00:12:31
Quinn
But there seems to be a higher priority on like ah expectation, like a intentionality, like intentionality and what would be the word?
00:12:44
Quinn
I'm not, I'm not sure. you Do you understand kind of what I'm saying? It's more...
00:12:47
Keegan Drummond
So maybe that like marriage is always going to be in the back of your mind if you're dating someone in church.
00:12:54
Quinn
Yes.
00:12:54
Keegan Drummond
Or it has to be in the back of your mind if you're dating someone in church.
00:12:54
Quinn
Yeah.
00:12:57
Quinn
Otherwise it's like, what are you doing?
00:13:00
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, yeah. No, that that makes sense. And I mean, i think... Yeah, I mean, I sort of noticed that too. Because i mean, I guess the thing is, so our background, you and i because unlike other people that have been on this podcast, we've known each other for as long as I've been alive.
00:13:19
Keegan Drummond
So we grew up in a conservative Lutheran church that is so conservative, it doesn't even pray with other denominations. It's very um isolated,
00:13:33
Keegan Drummond
And therefore, we're not necessarily touched by the same cultural, we're not part of the same cultural milieu of late ninety s early 2000s evangelicalism. I think the this sort of purity culture, the sort of puritanicalism of evangelicalism of that era I don't think we were necessarily touched by that in the same way.
00:14:04
Keegan Drummond
and it just wasn't a priority. I think we were just kind of like awkward, basically homeschoolers because we had gone to private school with the same like 10 kids in our class from preschool to high school, basically.
00:14:20
Keegan Drummond
So it was just weird.
00:14:21
Quinn
Thank you.
00:14:23
Keegan Drummond
um So we're not really thinking of those types of things. We're just thinking about whatever Nintendo 64 or something else. I don't know. um So I think, yeah, I think that was a thing that we, when we started going to this evangelical church, we're immediately confronted with the sorts of pressures around purity culture, around sex, drinking, whatever.
00:14:58
Keegan Drummond
And, Whereas like you know we grew up in a Lutheran church surrounded by German-Americans who were getting plastered every weekend, and it wasn't really a thing. um So yeah, I think that was a bit of a ah shift for for me, at least. I don't know if that was the same for you.
00:15:19
Quinn
I mean, from what I remember, kind of of, because I, while we were in that, uh, ah that Lutheran background, i was going to a youth group that was assemblies of God.
00:15:33
Keegan Drummond
True.
00:15:34
Quinn
I was going to a youth group that was school God.
00:15:35
Keegan Drummond
Right. Yeah.
00:15:37
Quinn
And there was, ah some of that I can't really remember, but I'm sure there was like kind of that purity aspect, culture aspect of it, um, within the assemblies of God. Yeah.
00:15:53
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, no, that would make sense, actually. Yeah. Because I mean, I guess you had a bit more exposure to Evangelicalism than we did, because I remember you going Obviously, I went to the youth group with you. I totally forgot about that, really.
00:16:06
Keegan Drummond
um But yeah, EOG youth group. Very interesting. But also in high school, you're you're interacting with a campus ministry that was ah evangelical ah in nature.
00:16:20
Quinn
Right.
00:16:21
Keegan Drummond
So you're kind of you were kind of already getting exposure to evangelical culture before i was. And I think that's why... ah You were maybe more open when we ended up switching churches to everything.
00:16:36
Keegan Drummond
And even like, because we had, I mean, we also were sort of like when we moved to Hawaii, when I was 11, you were 15. It was, we were also, we had changed churches basically around the same time. Obviously we were Lutheran for a little bit in Hawaii, but we sort of switch everything. So I'm kind of like holding on to living, growing up in Arizona and being Lutheran is the best thing ever. And you're like,
00:17:00
Keegan Drummond
nah like it's we're like we're we're our youth group leader is a literal like um at that point because we weren't in the church we end up we end up at we're hanging out this youth group where the youth pastor is like a famous rock star on the island kind of and everyone plays music and is really good looking and
00:17:20
Quinn
Oh yeah.
00:17:23
Keegan Drummond
um I think you were like, yeah, this is cool. And I'm just like, no, this is so theologically inaccurate. Actually, whatever.
00:17:33
Quinn
Well, I was also... at that point too, just not, I mean, look, I was just kind of looking for like groups. Cause I was 15. I didn't really have a whole like friend group and outside of the Lutheran church that was in Hawaii, there's there.
00:17:49
Quinn
I mean, in that Lutheran church in Hawaii, there's nothing really there as far as, because it's basically a church of 15 people at that point.
00:17:58
Keegan Drummond
yeah Yeah, no, that makes sense.
00:18:00
Quinn
So I kind of had to expand outside of that to have interactions like with other people and have friends, basically.
00:18:13
Keegan Drummond
And so evangelical the evangelical circles like your campus ministry, um our youth group, and then the church we end up at kind of become these sorts of safe havens church.
00:18:28
Keegan Drummond
like friendship and that sort of thing.
00:18:32
Quinn
Yeah. yeah i mean, i think I'm trying to think the first, the first, there was a ah surfer ministry that was really cool that was meeting up in our neighborhood.
00:18:44
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, right.
00:18:46
Quinn
Yeah. They were, they were really cool. These guys from ah Sweden were just like living in our neighborhood and they had basically like their ministry that they, i don't know if it was a youth marriage or what they would call it, but it's just like a ministry that they had at the rec center.
00:19:01
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:02
Quinn
And, uh, they met every, I think it was Tuesday and every Tuesday night. And,
00:19:08
Keegan Drummond
yeah
00:19:09
Quinn
ah that That was really cool. And they also helped helped with ah some of the construction when we were building the house there in Hawaii.
00:19:17
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, they helped us unload the trucks.
00:19:17
Quinn
Yeah.
00:19:19
Keegan Drummond
I do remember that. that's I totally forgot about that. they'll They'll probably come up again at some point.
Exposure to Pentecostalism
00:19:25
Keegan Drummond
that So that was kind of our first exposure to Pentecostalism.
00:19:33
Keegan Drummond
i don't mean Obviously, you went to the AOG youth group. I never saw anything at that AOG youth group other than people lifting their hands during worship. And that was new for us at the time.
00:19:43
Quinn
Mm-hmm.
00:19:46
Keegan Drummond
um But I hadn't seen people like get slain in spirit or start speaking tongues or whatever. um I remember at that surfer ministry, um I had brought friends with me to meet you at the group.
00:20:05
Keegan Drummond
Actually, I don't know if you were there, but they did a um they they brought in like one of the heads of the ministry from Sweden to do baptism in the spirit night, and people were just falling over.
00:20:22
Quinn
really I
00:20:25
Keegan Drummond
And I like brought kids from the neighborhood to this thing, and they're just like, what the heck is happening right now? um But ah yeah, that was sort of my first exposure.
00:20:37
Quinn
Oh, shoot. I think the reception cut out.
00:20:39
Keegan Drummond
They were also just Yeah, really, really cool people. But like, um I don't know, they did a like. Yeah, they did that Holy Spirit night and that was just bonkers. I had never seen anything like that before. Were you there?
00:20:57
Quinn
No, I don't think I was there when that happened. i don't know. Maybe I was doing ah some band stuff like for the high school band or like the marching band, but I don't think I was there that night when they were doing it.
00:21:11
Keegan Drummond
Okay. Did you see that stuff when that would happen? Or it was that?
00:21:16
Quinn
I mean, i think i went i remember I think stuff like that did happen because I remember in Arizona, I went to a youth conference with that Assembly of God church in Phoenix.
00:21:26
Keegan Drummond
Yes. And you broke your arm there.
00:21:29
Quinn
yeah I broke my broke my arm there.
00:21:30
Keegan Drummond
Famously. Famously.
00:21:32
Quinn
And ah there was like a night where like everyone was crying and like laying on the floor. And I was just kind of like, what is going on here? Because at that point, I wasn't exposed to anything like that.
00:21:43
Keegan Drummond
Right, right.
00:21:47
Quinn
So it was just very different.
00:21:48
Keegan Drummond
Right.
00:21:49
Quinn
So kind of seeing it in Hawaii, like yeah, I had more exposure at that point. But at the same time, was still like, what's kind of going on?
00:21:56
Keegan Drummond
Just as jarring to see something like that, because I mean, we grew up in this very liturgical church. And I didn't even go to the youth group at that church. I think you, they didn't even have a youth group for the longest time. I think they started it when you were already in eighth grade and about to go to high school.
00:22:17
Keegan Drummond
um And I don't, I mean, I don't even know what they did at that youth group because I never even went. So,
00:22:23
Quinn
I mean, it was kind of it was fun, like the one that they had in that one. I mean, it wasn't so much Bible focused. It was more just like kind of hanging out doing stuff. They had like lock ins and whatnot.
00:22:34
Quinn
we were just kind of drinking Mountain Dew and playing Halo or something.
00:22:35
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:22:40
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Like typical youth group stuff. Yeah.
00:22:44
Quinn
Yeah.
00:22:44
Keegan Drummond
So, I mean, okay, you get fast forward the tape we're doing. we're we're And that's the thing. i don't I think that's kind of interesting is that you and I, we both get really drawn to ministry and things like ministry activities uh throughout middle well for me middle school and high school and for you high school um like everything starts to revolve around ministry like we're going to the surfer thing uh tuesday nights we're going to that one youth group with the rock star guy also and then and he took us to me to my first concert mxpx which was um great shouts out him
00:23:20
Quinn
Oh, yeah.
00:23:29
Quinn
so that was like That was a good concert.
00:23:31
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, it was pretty sick. um I was way too young to be there. That was crazy. um But it was a good time. add um And so everything starts to revolve. Then you get plugged in with your ah high school campus ministry.
00:23:49
Keegan Drummond
um We start going to the Bible...
00:23:50
Quinn
With the other rock star.
00:23:51
Keegan Drummond
What's that?
00:23:52
Quinn
Mm-hmm.
00:23:54
Keegan Drummond
With the other rock star. That's a good point. He was a rock star as well. He was in a band. Yeah, that's kind of weird, right? That there were all these... like um the pop punk scene was really sort of interwoven into the Hawaii evangelical scene as well at that point, which was kind of cool.
00:24:13
Quinn
who
00:24:15
Keegan Drummond
We're sort of it seemed like we were ah in the circles of all these cool people, you know, looking back on it now, like I always tell people like, oh, I knew so-and-so or whatever.
00:24:27
Keegan Drummond
And they're like, oh, wow, that's cool. um I think Taya actually really liked music from the first youth group we went to. She was like, whoa, oh, you hung out with him? like, yeah, all the time. It was pretty cool.
00:24:39
Keegan Drummond
And he took me to my first concert. And that was the first time we tried sushi too, because we had never had sushi before.
00:24:44
Quinn
Oh, yeah.
00:24:45
Keegan Drummond
i had never had sushi before. I thought it was crazy. I had like a chicken yakitori roll or something.
00:24:48
Quinn
You're right.
00:24:50
Keegan Drummond
So Um, yeah, that was wild. So we're, so, so ministry starts becoming a big sort of thing in our lives and which makes sense. Cause that's all we knew. We went to a, like a Christian private school church that were one in the same.
00:25:07
Keegan Drummond
we weren't doing anything outside of that church and school. And, you know, religion becomes this sort of pillar of our life. Um, But in high school, you start, well, I don't know. i'm I'm just kind of curious. You decide pretty much that you want to go to Bible college immediately after.
00:25:30
Quinn
Well, there was a period too, like when I was, I was going to the same youth group with our affiliate with our church and i would just kind of go on and off because I had felt there was things that I felt were more important, like my garage band that I was in.
00:25:45
Quinn
um,
00:25:46
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:25:46
Quinn
I wanted to spend more time doing my garage band stuff. That's and
Inspiration and Ministry Goals
00:25:50
Quinn
funny enough. Like I got saved, like came to Christ at one of the youth conferences when when I was 16.
00:25:58
Quinn
And that's when I decided I wanted to go to Bible college and start being more.
00:26:02
Keegan Drummond
Interesting. I didn't know that.
00:26:04
Quinn
Yeah.
00:26:04
Keegan Drummond
Where was that?
00:26:04
Quinn
Yeah. ah ah It was, ah it was just the youth ministry that um we, we grew up in as, um,
00:26:14
Keegan Drummond
So the church, the church that all of these people that we've had on the podcast went to.
00:26:16
Quinn
Yeah, our church.
00:26:20
Quinn
Yeah, it was one of the the youth conferences where they had one one of the guest speakers. and It was like the first one.
00:26:26
Keegan Drummond
Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:27
Quinn
The first one. Yeah.
00:26:29
Keegan Drummond
And they brought in the the two youth pastors from California.
00:26:33
Quinn
yeah I think, yeah, I think if that's the same one, yes. It's at the first one.
00:26:37
Keegan Drummond
Oh, interesting.
00:26:38
Quinn
I was like,
00:26:38
Keegan Drummond
interesting
00:26:40
Quinn
That's when I yeah i said, made more of a serious commitment to follow Christ and then trying to figure out what I want to do. and I was like, you know what? I'm going to go to Bible college.
00:26:50
Keegan Drummond
Interesting. Was there like a particular talk or something at that conference? i i i i mean I think I played guitar at that concert.
00:26:54
Quinn
I can't.
00:26:56
Keegan Drummond
I think i was in the middle school I was in middle school, but I played rhythm guitar at that conference and I got to skip school for it.
00:27:03
Quinn
Yeah, i ah I can't even remember what was really talked about. I just knew there was like a nudging in my heart to like say, hey, I need the make a decision here.
00:27:14
Quinn
And I just said, like, you know, I'm just going to make that decision right now that i want to follow Christ. So.
00:27:20
Keegan Drummond
Mm-hmm.
00:27:22
Quinn
So at that that's when I'm, but then after, after that, i was trying to figure out what to do with my life, where I want to go to school. And like, part me says, like, I wanted to go to Bible college because I sat in one of the, one of the classes that they were um just for one of the, what do you call?
00:27:39
Quinn
um audit classes and was like, you know what? I could see myself going here. So that's when I decided to apply and put myself in there because i was thinking like, hey, you know, maybe i want to serve in youth ministry and like have like a ministry where it's like a gaming ministry where it's like everyone plays video games and like is use that as a vehicle to like draw people to God.
00:28:06
Keegan Drummond
That's sick. We should still do that. So, okay.
00:28:09
Quinn
That'd be cool.
00:28:10
Keegan Drummond
So you're going into it thinking, I mean, are you imagining yourself as pastor? Like you're getting in front of people and giving sermons or what, what, what does that role kind of look like for you as you envision yourself going into full-time ministry?
00:28:30
Quinn
So i I didn't really see myself in a pastoral role where I am speaking on stages. I didn't want anything really to do, to do with that.
00:28:41
Quinn
I just kind of wanted to be some, be plugged in somewhere and basically just be allowed to be used in wherever God, i were in my mind at that point, like wherever God saw fit and whether that is.
00:28:57
Quinn
And I was also still trying to figure out like to what I wanted to do. So i was playing drums or I was doing graphic design or videography or whatever.
00:29:10
Quinn
i was just getting plugged in in any areas I can and just kind of serving.
00:29:17
Keegan Drummond
So you you're going into it just knowing I want to do ministry. I don't know what that looks like. So I'm going to try And just try out all these different areas, whether that be music or visual design, whatever, like that's, you're going to just see it all and then just sort of find out what, uh, resonates with you or what.
00:29:38
Quinn
Yeah.
00:29:42
Quinn
Yeah. And all I just, during that time too, maybe just because I was still younger, I felt a draw to youth ministry. So like, that's why I was getting more plugged in there and serving in those areas and doing that kind of those types of things within youth ministry. Yeah.
00:29:57
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Okay. Cause yeah. So, I mean, I'm just trying to think of the
Exploring Ministry Roles
00:30:01
Keegan Drummond
timeline. It's so funny because I'm so, I mean, middle school, I'm getting really involved in youth ministry, high school, you're in high school at that point.
00:30:13
Keegan Drummond
You go off to college. I go into high school cause we're weird where we never went to high school together cause we're exactly four years apart. So I get to high school and then you go to
00:30:25
Quinn
and I'm starting in August 2010.
00:30:27
Keegan Drummond
You're starting Bible college.
00:30:27
Quinn
ah in august of twenty ten
00:30:30
Keegan Drummond
Okay. August. sorry Yeah. So at that point, yeah, I'm still kind of like super involved and yeah, but you're, and then I don't know, but we didn't really, I felt like we didn't necessarily intersect at the youth ministry at the same time. Cause I remember you interning at one point and then I was sort of just like,
00:30:55
Keegan Drummond
trying to be sketchy and not go to youth group or whatever.
00:30:59
Quinn
as I think I'm trying to think what was going on too during that point. I can't really, man, that was so long ago. i think I was getting involved in just other areas i think maybe even middle school because i remember i was playing drums for middle school ministry on sundays in the morning like under the tent and yeah and uh occasionally for the high school ministries at night but then i think i was more like dedicated when i became an intern
00:31:24
Keegan Drummond
Oh, yeah. yeah
00:31:41
Keegan Drummond
And that is coinciding with your time in Bible college. You're, you're getting kind of plugged in there. And I don't know, it's kind of interesting because I mean, you were, you were getting really, i think really interested in theology at that point.
00:32:00
Keegan Drummond
And,
00:32:01
Quinn
Yeah.
00:32:03
Keegan Drummond
um I don't know. That becomes like a big sort of part of your life and personality in the biz. We call them Theo bros. You kind of become Theo bro in a way.
00:32:19
Keegan Drummond
um Yeah. I mean, what was what was kind of going on? I mean, did you did you just sort of like, it seemed like you really gravitated towards that during that time though.
00:32:29
Keegan Drummond
I mean, we we would discuss that.
00:32:30
Quinn
ah
00:32:31
Keegan Drummond
I was not really interested in any of that. at some point in high school. Um, but you were, i don't know. I thought you were going to be doing that.
00:32:40
Quinn
it was It was a journey a little bit. I mean, I remember in, I think the following year in like 2011, was in a Christian doctrine class and ah heavily exposed to like Calvinism. So we had like a ah Bible doctrine book from Wayne Grudem.
00:32:59
Quinn
And that was our course textbook as far as what everything was kind of based on like, hey, that you know, this is kind of the way things are. This is... the the way things are as far as how the Bible's interpreted.
00:33:15
Quinn
And that's just kind of for a little bit, that's just kind of how I thought until I went to a church history class and started learning about all these other things and actually got to have a sit down with one of the professors. And he kind of introduced me to these other Christian doctrines that kind of help explain some of the thoughts that I had as far as but contradictions that i always had in my own mind trying to wrestle with some of those concepts within the that conservative type of theological camp
00:33:50
Keegan Drummond
of like reformed theology
00:33:52
Quinn
of reformed theology right
00:33:54
Keegan Drummond
yeah do you I mean <unk> it's kind of interesting because i think as we have more and more guests on this show there's going to be this theme of people who get um during this time a lot of people ended up going to our Bible college and they get like extremely sucked into studying theology and whatever and then now they're just Like,
00:34:19
Keegan Drummond
not even Christian, a lot of them. I know, obviously, that's not the same case with you. what do What do you kind of attribute that to?
00:34:25
Quinn
Okay.
00:34:26
Keegan Drummond
I mean, it does theology become just another um like intellectual pursuit among many, or just becomes a thing you could be um kind of pretentious about? Because I don't mean, obviously, um i was i mean like not I don't think you had that problem. I'm saying you had that problem, but I'm just saying that there's a lot of people that got interested when they were in the the classes we were in and all of that.
00:34:54
Keegan Drummond
and And don't know, and now there's just, there's none of that anymore in their lives.
00:34:56
Quinn
here
00:35:00
Quinn
i can I get that. I understand like how that could be ah and attributed like where people may not be Christians anymore after kind of being in this very intellectual type of environment.
00:35:13
Quinn
For me, it was a little bit different. I was really just trying understand and just kind of figure out, all right, all right like who, like obviously i know who is God, but like in the more like deeper context, like the attributes of God, how, like, how do I make sense of certain things as far as how the world operates with God's involvement or what does that look like? How do I like wrestling like wrestling with those concepts?
00:35:49
Quinn
For me, it was more just, I don't know if it was more intellectual, but more just a...
00:35:56
Keegan Drummond
almost like existential.
00:35:56
Quinn
and
00:35:57
Keegan Drummond
Like it it has to do with your sort of like who you are as a human being and trying to figure who you are out in relationship to God.
00:36:08
Quinn
Yeah, so it it wasn't too much of an intellectual exercise as it more was trying to figure out figure God out.
00:36:12
Keegan Drummond
Right.
00:36:15
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, that's, I mean, and that's probably why you're still Christian and a lot of these people aren't is because it wasn't like something you could just be a douchebag about like it was for me and and most people because I also had that same Christian doctrine professor and, um,
00:36:30
Quinn
All right.
00:36:40
Keegan Drummond
uh, famously called him out for just being super reformed. And then he ended up like quitting the next week and it was really awkward.
00:36:51
Keegan Drummond
And, uh, we all had to pray for him and stuff. It was really interesting.
00:36:55
Quinn
Well, I would say within that, because i when I was in that very reformed type of camp, I mean, there was a sense of superiority in ah in a sense, because that's what we were kind of in.
00:36:55
Keegan Drummond
Uh,
00:37:10
Quinn
But at the same time, as I tried, as I really actually tried to sit down and wrestle with some of these thoughts, that's where it became more of a, I won't say existential crisis, but more so just...
00:37:21
Quinn
unpacking the implications of what, when I say these things, what does that, what are the implications of that? What does that actually mean?
00:37:32
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. No, I can totally see that. where And that's why i mean it still resonates with you today, because it wasn't just a thing you were doing while you were in school. It's just now become part of like who you are as a Christian and how you function in the world.
00:37:51
Quinn
Well, the thing is now, like, I'm not as, like, into the, like, theological, like, studies as I was when I was in college. Like, I mean, yeah, i have, like, thoughts and ideas as far as what what I think, what I think it is that...
00:38:11
Quinn
I believe regarding theology, but at the end of the day, the same time, like I'm fine being wrong about those things. And you know, when I die, we're all gonna be We're all gonna be wrong about something.
00:38:27
Quinn
And I'm fine with that in that sense. So yeah, while I have my my positions, I don't have them with a closed fist, so to say.
00:38:40
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah, no, that and that makes sense. Okay, so I mean, yeah. oh Okay, I did want to touch on this. because you're So you're going to Bible college, and eventually you're you're working in ministry.
00:38:56
Keegan Drummond
You intern in our church. um what I mean, was there a moment where... Because ah now, obviously, you have this job at the government. You don't do anything...
00:39:08
Keegan Drummond
ministry related, maybe there's some sort of application of your sort of ministry classes in what you do. I don't know. But um ah I don't know.
00:39:22
Keegan Drummond
Is there a moment where you're like, this isn't for me? Or um why are like why why aren't you doing ministry?
00:39:28
Quinn
Yeah.
00:39:30
Keegan Drummond
I guess they're like, is are there are there moments in ministry that made you feel like you can't or shouldn't do
00:39:32
Quinn
yeah
00:39:38
Keegan Drummond
ah ministry as a full-time profession? like What happens there?
Financial Challenges in Ministry
00:39:43
Quinn
Yeah. So, I mean, when I i went off ah to California ah to ah work for a church full time and like the people were, the people, there's nothing bad about the church. The people were awesome and they're very welcoming and helping. um It's just the aspect of security as far as career goes.
00:40:09
Quinn
um And I know it's like, when and you go into ministry, I know it shouldn't be about the money, but at the same time, like it's, I want to be able to start a family and I want to be able to be a means of financial support for my, for my spouse. And,
00:40:29
Quinn
Just I wouldn't I couldn't even afford to buy a trailer and when I was working there. And it's like, I don't think I can make this work. So that's where I was kind of when moved back to Hawaii after working there for a year, i was like, I need to kind of figure out what it is to do what I want to do.
00:40:46
Keegan Drummond
It was purely, I didn't realize that it was cause the thing is you hadn't finished your degree at that point. You had gotten this call from this church and they were like, we want to bring you on. You go out there. It's in Northern California, which is, you know, all of California is expensive, but you know, San Jose ish area, very expensive, whatever.
00:41:08
Keegan Drummond
um i didn't I guess I didn't realize that. I mean, it wasn't just like the vibes or anything there. It was purely like, this is just impossible to to live here.
00:41:15
Quinn
yeah
00:41:19
Quinn
Yeah. And it's nothing bad against them because I know it's a church and I know like they can only like ministry is known for not paying well. And like, I get that it's nothing against them or anything like that. It's just like, I wouldn't be able to do this.
00:41:39
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I feel like there's some reason to be upset, right? I mean, like, i get that. But don't hire someone then. if you if you're If you're bringing someone on full-time, even if it's a church job, I mean, it's not that, like, church jobs are any easier.
00:41:59
Keegan Drummond
Right. I mean, you're working a full, maybe more than 40 hours. You're having to work weekends. You're having to go all the services like I don't i mean, if you're hiring someone full time, like expect them to want to be paid to live like yeah I do kind remember that you couldn't even afford rent in that area.
00:42:23
Quinn
i Well, yeah, I mean, thankfully I had a family that ah took me in and like I just paid like a little bit of money monthly. But as far as if I wanted to get my own apartment, no, it I wouldn't have been able to double.
00:42:37
Keegan Drummond
That's insane, though. I don't i don't think that's like that's crazy. like that's not I don't know. That doesn't make sense. like you should you should If you're hiring someone full-time and you pay to have them come out from Hawaii, you probably should be paying them enough to have a studio apartment.
00:42:59
Keegan Drummond
That seems insane. And to buy food for themselves. and you know Just basic basic things.
00:43:09
Quinn
Yeah. Nah, nah, I hear you. And looking back, like, yeah, probably. the same time, like, it's just at that point, I can't i can't turn back the clock and
00:43:23
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:43:24
Quinn
change anything about it, but no.
00:43:27
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I don't know. That is interesting, though, because that becomes... I think that's a lot of folks who enter ministry is... they know it pays well and you're sort of saying these mantras of, I don't do it for the money and um if I wanted to make more, I could do that, but I'm choosing to be here.
00:43:49
Keegan Drummond
hear all these sorts of you know glib sayings and
00:43:58
Keegan Drummond
it's, I, it's like, well, I mean, the onus is on someone, right?
00:43:59
Quinn
Thank you.
00:44:03
Keegan Drummond
I mean, the pastor somehow can afford, you know, a nice three bedroom house with a yard and a nice car, whatever.
00:44:15
Keegan Drummond
um but somehow no one else can afford to do anything. I mean, um, yeah no that's I don't know. I just feel like that's reasonable to do that. Otherwise, just don't have the job. Just don't do it.
00:44:30
Keegan Drummond
you know Just don't hire anyone for the role. Or pay someone like on a gig basis or whatever.
00:44:33
Quinn
Right. Yeah,
00:44:37
Keegan Drummond
you know her Because you were doing what? Graphic design?
00:44:41
Quinn
yeah I was doing ah graphic design, videography, up maintain their website, drumming for the youth ministry and Sunday services. Yeah.
00:44:52
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, i mean, I don't know. It's like just pay someone enough to live. I don't think that's unreasonable. You know? Yeah.
00:45:02
Quinn
Yeah. And it like, just kind of off that as well.
00:45:03
Keegan Drummond
and
00:45:05
Quinn
Like, I don't like people going into um Bible college. Like, I don't, there it's very much a, a bubble in a sense.
00:45:17
Quinn
So they are not like, they don't really know. Like some people do, but they don't really, others, a good handful don't really know too much outside that bubble. So like you say, they'll say to these mantras, like, it's not about the money, but then,
00:45:30
Quinn
Once reality sets in, it's like, I need to make some money. I need to make money.
00:45:34
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. i don't know. And i I kind of had that thought too, where I'm going to school and I'm just, you know, remember telling Taya's dad, like, you know, I'm going to be a pastor. i'm not going to make much. Okay. So just, and you know, he was just like, well, you know, you're going to be a pastor. That's amazing. Whatever.
00:45:56
Keegan Drummond
Um, just like there's some spiritual significance to that, but, um, yeah, I don't know. I think I had some expectation <unk> of that, but I think you're right.
00:46:08
Quinn
right.
00:46:08
Keegan Drummond
And I think a lot of people realize like, oh, I could just work literally anywhere else that requires a college degree and get paid twice as much. So maybe I won't do that. maybe And honestly, i was just always so frustrated at how people were getting ministry jobs even though they didn't go to school, like they didn't, they didn't do the education, you know, they, they were just like, you know, related to someone or whatever could talk well. And that's just how you ended up there, which is interesting to me.
00:46:48
Keegan Drummond
Um,
00:46:50
Quinn
Well, I just feel bad too for like, and just maybe there's just encouragement to others, but like, it's totally fine. Like for people that are maybe watching, like it's totally fine if you're not in ministry anymore, you know?
00:47:03
Quinn
Like, yeah, you had these expectations.
00:47:04
Keegan Drummond
No, it's not fine. You failed.
00:47:06
Quinn
Yeah.
00:47:09
Keegan Drummond
You sold out.
00:47:10
Quinn
you you if
00:47:15
Quinn
No, I mean,
00:47:15
Keegan Drummond
what did
Balancing Ministry and Personal Life
00:47:16
Keegan Drummond
you say? What?
00:47:16
Quinn
just I was saying it's totally fine if you're not in ministry anymore.
00:47:19
Quinn
Like there's no shame like that, that you're not in ministry. I mean, ministry goes far beyond working in a church, you know.
00:47:30
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, true. And you can use you can use the the the things you've learned. Obviously, can edify your own life and the life of the the church that you go to and whatever.
00:47:45
Keegan Drummond
But at the same time, like we all sort of went into it with rose colored glasses and we were like, we are going to be senior pastors in churches in Hawaii.
00:48:00
Keegan Drummond
And it's like, how many churches are there? you're like, oh yeah, right.
00:48:04
Quinn
hundred
00:48:05
Keegan Drummond
I forgot. I'll just start one. I'll just start another one. I think that's like the ugly secret about ah church plants is that they got to come from somewhere, folks. You know, they they they got us they got to come from somewhere.
00:48:22
Keegan Drummond
Okay, so that's also what I wanted to talk about. So you're interning at this church that we all grew up in, whatever. But then you go to like our rival church in the same denomination.
00:48:38
Keegan Drummond
um
00:48:38
Quinn
Thank you.
00:48:39
Keegan Drummond
And, um and I remember talking to, actually, I don't know if I ever told you this. I talked to our youth pastor, And I was telling him like, oh, Quinn's going so-and-so.
00:48:51
Keegan Drummond
And he's like, that's probably a good opportunity to because he's not going to get like the opportunities that he needs to grow um in this church. I was like, interesting.
00:49:03
Keegan Drummond
And he had already left at that point. um So you go there,
00:49:10
Quinn
Yeah.
00:49:10
Keegan Drummond
but um And I don't know, the the vibe I always got from that church, just like the the interactions I had with people from that church or whatever, was that they were really cool.
00:49:29
Keegan Drummond
They were like really cool and kind of exclusive. And maybe we were like that too a little bit. I just thought we were a bit more fun. um But they were really cool. And I don't know, but you go over there, which I find very interesting.
00:49:44
Keegan Drummond
Obviously, it kind of sucked.
00:49:49
Quinn
Again, like I do not want to like bad.
00:49:52
Keegan Drummond
You're too charitable.
00:49:54
Quinn
I don't want to bad mouth like the people there. Like ultimately, i like I wanted to go there because like like kind of like our youth pastor from our first church um but where I was interning at said like, hey, it'd just be a good opportunity.
00:50:11
Quinn
I just want to be part of something bigger myself and
00:50:13
Keegan Drummond
did you talk to him then?
00:50:15
Quinn
Yeah, because I asked like, hey, you know, is this a what do you think?
00:50:16
Keegan Drummond
Okay.
00:50:18
Quinn
I mean, is this something that I should do? He's like, yeah, go for it. i was like, all right.
00:50:22
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, okay.
00:50:23
Keegan Drummond
Okay.
00:50:23
Quinn
and
00:50:24
Quinn
And like it was a good it was good. Like it helped me when I went ah to California because I learned a lot of things. However, at the same time, there was a lot of a lot of stress that ah came from it as well.
00:50:44
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing. I guess, like... there were, there were different, I mean, did you feel like you were on the outside when you're coming?
00:50:57
Keegan Drummond
Cause mean, they're kind of, they're a similar situation as us where it was sort of this core group of people who had all kind of been doing ministry together.
00:50:59
Quinn
Thank you.
00:51:08
Keegan Drummond
um just like on the other side of the Island, basically. Um, did you feel like you were on the outside looking in when you go over there or is it,
00:51:19
Quinn
I mean, I got pretty well connected lot of people. So there's people that like I would go dinner after a Saturday night service or people I would, like after a day's work, play Catan with or something.
00:51:35
Quinn
So, I mean, I got... some pretty connected it's just more so the uh ministry environment was pretty uh demanding is all while being a full-time student
00:51:49
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
00:51:54
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. And I think ah like, so yeah, you're, you're basically interning with them. You're doing school full time, but like you were getting paid like kind of garbage there or like you were getting paid less than the hours you worked or something or what, what was going on there?
00:52:18
Quinn
Yeah, like, so um so I would b i'll be, how they kind of had set is you can get paid ah ah to 20 hours. So you do 20 hours of paid work. and but You also have to do 20 hours of serving hours as well.
00:52:37
Keegan Drummond
that's insane.
00:52:42
Quinn
Yeah, so so I was basically working full-time while going to school full-time. I mean, i know people do it, but at the same time, it was it was just true.
00:52:52
Keegan Drummond
You're also getting paid, though. You're getting paid. If you work full-time, you get paid full-time. Like, what?
00:52:59
Quinn
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:02
Quinn
So it and like as far as priorities, the priorities kind of ah shifted as well as far as, hey, you're a intern first school kind of like how it kind of was perceived was intern first school second, basically.
00:53:24
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. So like, that's so crazy to me because it, I mean, it it really, that, that, that sort of signaling shows that these events are way more important than what we say we are trying to do when we have an internship program, which should be forming young men and women to do ministry.
00:53:41
Quinn
Thank
00:53:51
Keegan Drummond
um What's really important is having lackeys who are putting on you know women's conferences when bringing out celebrity guest rappers like me ah to perform at them. you know Yes, I did perform as a celebrity guest rapper at the Rival Church's Women's Conference.
00:54:18
Keegan Drummond
I did that. Okay. I'll be honest. And I'm not proud of it. Um, I messed up the lyrics. They actually thought I was a celebrity. They applauded as if I was one. That was crazy.
00:54:34
Keegan Drummond
Um, but we're here now and we're going to move on. Okay. No, but, but really we had to talk about it at some point.
00:54:46
Quinn
yeah
00:54:46
Keegan Drummond
Um, No, but yeah, no, I mean, like, I think it just goes to show that a lot of the sort of, there's just this double talk happening in ministries a lot of the time where we're saying that the thing the thing we're doing is this thing, you know, edifying people, growing people, helping people figure out what they're good at, whatever, when in actuality, we're putting on a program and getting little people to do these different little things so that our program looks really good.
00:55:23
Keegan Drummond
And so one person looks really, really good. You know, the guy who's playing acoustic guitar and singing or the guy who gets on the microphone and talks for 45 minutes, you know, um it's really like, it's really about that.
00:55:38
Keegan Drummond
You know, we need to figure out a train a kid to put a light on someone or to put a camera on someone, you know, or put a lower third up when the the pastor comes on stage, you know?
00:55:52
Quinn
Yeah, it was it was ah it was a very tough season of my life, which is part probably part of the reason why i went to California, just because I kind of wanted to get away from from it
00:56:11
Keegan Drummond
I thought, okay, I
Internship Demands and Burnout
00:56:12
Keegan Drummond
didn't realize that. So California was after?
00:56:16
Quinn
Yeah, so i was interning, ah getting paid with ah this church previously. And then ah that's when I got a call to go to California.
00:56:27
Quinn
And um that's then I went over there. Because
00:56:31
Keegan Drummond
Oh, I see. I see.
00:56:33
Quinn
I was like, this is too much.
00:56:35
Keegan Drummond
Because you're like, oh, I'm getting a full-time job. I'm getting paid full-time. I didn't realize that I thought the internship was, um I thought that was after the fact.
00:56:49
Quinn
So no so ah California was after because pretty much that next year, six months later, that's when I moved to Texas. Like in the in the.
00:57:00
Keegan Drummond
Oh, right.
00:57:03
Quinn
Yeah.
00:57:03
Keegan Drummond
I forgot about that. Okay. Yes. Dang. That's crazy. Okay.
00:57:10
Quinn
Yeah. So I was interning for about. six six months. Yeah, pretty much a full school term. And then i guess school term is like four months. But anyway, yeah, I was interning. and i was like, this is way too much.
00:57:27
Quinn
And I just need to do anything to get out of here.
00:57:32
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. and And then, so you take a job where they also pay you like crap and then,
00:57:40
Quinn
I was like, that's okay. Yeah.
00:57:43
Keegan Drummond
what's that? You're just happy to be out of it.
00:57:45
Quinn
yeah
00:57:46
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, i don't know.
00:57:49
Quinn
Thank you.
00:57:50
Keegan Drummond
it's It's just kind of unfortunate because, and I don't know, it's like maybe you're, I just wonder how many people that's happened to where they, um, they, they, they want ministry to work, work.
00:58:08
Keegan Drummond
Um, cause I know people like you were, when you were interning at that church, there were people that were in that program with you that are still involved in churches, you know?
00:58:20
Keegan Drummond
um but, uh, they, did not get treated that way probably. And they're, you know, feel like they could still be in it, you know, but I just wonder how many people that's happened to where it's just like, they're constantly sort of just being like, honestly, like spiritually abused and manipulated to just do work, like to just get something done.
00:58:48
Keegan Drummond
And they're just not like, it's just like, they're not going to do ministry anymore, you know?
00:58:48
Quinn
and
00:58:53
Quinn
Yeah, i can I can see how it could be, how how it is that way. But though I know sometimes churches be like, hey, you know, we got, i guess sometimes it just gets to a point where it's like certain things, like it's like we've been doing this this way for so long. It's like we got all this that we need to get done. It's like, how are we going to get this done? So it's just kind of like a a cycle of like,
00:59:20
Quinn
ah programming in a sense to get to get and and it's it's tough too because like like as
00:59:23
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. it's You become a slave to this program dis no matter how many people are on your team, no matter how many people are coming to the ministry anymore, no matter um like how everyone's feeling about those things. It's just...
00:59:43
Keegan Drummond
Stay the course, you know? And I don't know.
00:59:51
Quinn
As much as I'm glad I'm not not working there, like they do like they're doing something. like As far as something right, as far as people still going and people attending, like somehow they're doing something as far as programming.
01:00:14
Quinn
to get people in in those chairs and people are having an encounter with God. i would i would still I would still say people are having an encounter with God. is It's just, don't want to say at the cost of some of the people that are serving, but ah at some points, like people are busting their butts just about every weekend, giving up their work and people that are serving work in full-time jobs, but then they'll be at the...
01:00:40
Quinn
church like ah whole weekend and they're just running on a ah low tank
01:00:48
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, and then they basically get treated like an employee working as a volunteer. I mean, I guess that's my problem with it, though, is that there's like, I don't know, there's these. don't even know where I was going with that.
01:01:06
Keegan Drummond
um I think I just got too frustrated in the moment. um i I just don't think that. ah whether or not there's butts in seats are is really like is demonstrating anything about the merit of a ministry, right?
01:01:21
Keegan Drummond
Because anything can put butts in seats.
01:01:23
Quinn
Yeah.
01:01:24
Keegan Drummond
Like the new Avenger movie can get butts in seats, but it's not necessarily going to be like spiritually meritorious in any way, you know? like or Or like a cult could bring people into the room or whatever, you know?
01:01:33
Quinn
yeah
01:01:37
Keegan Drummond
Or like, I mean, there are religions that you know, are, we would say are teaching things that are antithetical to the teachings of Christ, but they're, but I mean, i don't know if they're growing or whatever, who knows?
01:01:52
Keegan Drummond
Some cults are probably growing, but like, I mean, I don't know if that's necessarily like means anything.
01:01:59
Quinn
Yeah, I mean, more so just like, maybe not so much the butts in seats, but I like more so people are having in encounter with God, i would say. Like, I would say, yeah they're they're having an encounter with with God, maybe different from an environment, maybe they grew up in where they didn't even have know who God was, and they have...
01:02:23
Quinn
they're going into a environment where people are smiling and like saying good morning. And it's just a different maybe energy than their nine to five, where they just kind of feel trapped.
01:02:36
Quinn
And then there's lights and all these things. And that's ah ah another discussion in itself. But I think um as far as,
01:02:43
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:02:46
Keegan Drummond
It's resonating with them in some capacity.
01:02:50
Quinn
there's a resonation in some capacity, whether it's mino emotional manipulation or if they're having guy around God, that's beside the point.
01:02:50
Keegan Drummond
And
01:02:58
Quinn
But there seems to be some... with some people a resonation to where like they want to go back every weekend because they like having that. They felt maybe they had an encounter with God that maybe they haven't had ever in their life.
01:03:14
Quinn
So I think there's some merit, but at the same time, there's an expense to the people that are serving at the same time.
01:03:23
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, they are the expense. And yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying. Like, yes, I can't necessarily go in a room and see all these people like crying and lifting their hands and being like, oh you're being fake. You're being manipulated. The new Hillsong song is just making you feel the type of way, whatever.
01:03:44
Keegan Drummond
um Like, I can't necessarily say that. um And it's true, like, there might be something going on behind the scenes because that was the case, you know, for you at that that conference or for me, um you know, ah when I became serious about my faith, whenever that was, if that's happened yet, I don't know.
01:03:53
Quinn
right.
01:04:06
Keegan Drummond
um But I think um still, like, like I guess there is just a cost in all of that.
01:04:17
Keegan Drummond
And it seems to be that that cost is people. And I wonder like you know like
01:04:25
Quinn
you
01:04:27
Keegan Drummond
um like if it's this sort of constant sort of exchange that's happening in ministries. like I don't necessarily think it's fortuitous that um this podcast is going to have a bunch of other people that got burned by churches Like, I just wonder if there is sort of this, like, exchange that happens as a church sort of goes on.
01:04:53
Keegan Drummond
like Like, okay, it takes this many people getting burned to have, like, this many years of... um You know, Sunday 11 services or this many midweek services or this many youth conferences. Like, this is how many people we're going to burn. It just seems that that's going to be this recurring theme in the show as it goes on.
01:05:25
Quinn
Yeah, and like, so like I'll see, and not to, um this is just any church that you'll see is is like, oh, now we have a 5 p.m. service. I'm like, 5 p.m. service? What are you guys doing?
01:05:40
Quinn
Are you giving, who's goose leading this? Is it all the people that were there Sunday morning? Like, why are you doing 5 ?
01:05:46
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:05:47
Quinn
service on Sunday are like, how are are they getting invested into, you know, or how I is how they're giving up a good portion of their, their morning.
01:05:58
Quinn
And I know they'll say, oh you know, when you serve, you'll get poured back in, but it's like, not all the time.
01:06:07
Keegan Drummond
No, this is actually how it works. You're all supposed to, the volunteers for Sunday are supposed to go to the Saturday one and then they're supposed to take up their whole Sunday morning going, working, driving shuttles and doing daycare during the Sunday services and vice versa, you know?
01:06:29
Keegan Drummond
So the Sunday service people um or the Saturday service people that are volunteering on Saturdays, they're supposed to go on Sunday. So, yeah the church is still your main priority, but at least you get a night off.
01:06:43
Keegan Drummond
But you don't actually, because you have to go to night and morning. So, you you just kind of have to use up all your time on this on this thing.
01:06:48
Quinn
Thank you.
01:06:53
Keegan Drummond
That's someone else's vision.
01:06:57
Quinn
Yeah. And like, it's just it's tough, like because I know a lot like the people that are serving, they they want to do well and they want to they they're bought into the vision of this church. So they'll they'll work saying and like, hey, you know, I'm I'm in I'm bought into this vision. I'm bought into what is going on here.
01:07:19
Quinn
while ignoring some of the things that they may be dealing with like in their own personal lives.
01:07:29
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I think that's a gonna that's that's also another big theme I think we're going to see is that there's going to be that cost that takes place when you're giving someone all
Prioritizing Personal Relationships
01:07:42
Keegan Drummond
this time. It's like the time has to come from something or someone or some people like and some commitment. you know It's like that time is taken away from...
01:07:54
Keegan Drummond
Your spouse, your partner, your your kids, your job, you're i mean it's are you your own personal devotion to Christ. like It's all going to get taken from these different things, and it's going to be used for this thing.
01:08:13
Quinn
And that's part of the reason too, why I'm not working in ministry too. I've found a job where my work life balance is great.
01:08:24
Quinn
I am happy and like I'm able to prioritize time with my my my fiance and be able to work on ah cultivating that relationship more and being able to be a to help kind of contribute to a family that we're going to build.
01:08:44
Quinn
So I feel like I feel it's a better ratio for being out of funny enough being out of ministry and I'm actually closer to God I feel being out of like working in a ministry type environment than than compared to when I was working in ministry.
01:08:55
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:09:09
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. And that's like crazy.
01:09:12
Quinn
you
01:09:12
Keegan Drummond
Like, I don't know. Like, I think churches should think about that. Like the fact that people are better off being away from them.
01:09:25
Keegan Drummond
people are better off staying away from ministries in order to grow in their personal walk with Jesus Christ. Like, I don't know. That should probably trigger some sort of alarm, you know? um And it kind of makes you wonder about the state of the people who are day in, day out, weekend in, weekend out, um serving at these these churches.
01:09:49
Quinn
Thank you.
01:09:55
Keegan Drummond
like what does that look like on the inside? you know um How are they doing?
01:10:01
Quinn
and
01:10:01
Keegan Drummond
And I'm not saying, obviously, I'm not casting aspersions that they're all um a mess, but um it seems like they are cultivating spaces in which they might very well be living a very
Rethinking Bible College Emphasis
01:10:15
Keegan Drummond
messy life.
01:10:15
Keegan Drummond
And I don't you know just look at um whatever, insert recent church scandal here. you know I mean, it's just there's too many.
01:10:26
Quinn
I feel too, like, I think being out of ministry has made me too more, given me a little bit more humility in a sense that it's like, hey, you know, because i think when I was in working in ministry in ministry in a bigger capacity, when other people are saying like, oh, but I'm going to a regular college, I'm just kind of thinking to myself, why are you going to a regular college? You should go to Bible college. That's what you should do.
01:10:53
Quinn
But now I'm kind of like, hey, you know, probably don't go to Bible college, you know?
01:10:58
Keegan Drummond
Dude, I'm telling everyone, don't do it, bro.
01:10:58
Quinn
it's about yeah
01:11:00
Keegan Drummond
Don't do it Think about it.
01:11:03
Quinn
and I think i think that it's fine. Like, ah if you if you go to Bible college, that's great. But if if you don't, that's totally fine, too. You don't have to go to Bible college to feel ah sense of fulfillment from God.
01:11:17
Quinn
Like, there's fulfillment in god in just normal, everyday life.
01:11:23
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, no, 100%. Yeah, I think people, i think when we were going to Bible college, everyone felt like you had to be a pastor to feel like you were going to make a difference. That's how I felt at least too.
01:11:36
Keegan Drummond
And I remember that actually the camp, that I talked about last week with Shawnee where kids are like supposed to be, you know, getting baptized in the spirit or whatever.
01:11:39
Quinn
Thank
01:11:46
Keegan Drummond
There's this one kid and he's, I see, know, everyone's crying. Everyone's just falling on the floor. Everyone's getting prayed for whatever. And I'm just like,
01:11:58
Keegan Drummond
sneaking around in the back just like trying to avoid this whole situation because it's such a mess and I just see this kid on the floor and he's or no he's like sitting up against this pillar and he's just like this and he's just like crying and I'm like
01:12:17
Keegan Drummond
I don't see you, buddy. I don't see you because I know, I know, i know. i know it's not that real. I know it isn't. And then the the senior pastor, he sees he sees me, sees this kid, and he's like,
01:12:30
Keegan Drummond
You should probably go pray for this kid, Keegan. And I'm like, ah yeah okay, okay. And I walk over and he's like, bruh, I'm getting called. I'm getting called to ministry.
01:12:43
Keegan Drummond
going to be a pastor. And I'm like, okay. So what are you going to do? what are you going to do about that? Because I'm in my third year of Bible college and I'll tell you right now, it's not a lot of fun. do you want to do that? do you want to go to Bible college? I asked him, like do you want to go to Bible college? What what are you going to do?
01:13:04
Keegan Drummond
Okay, God's calling you supposedly. How are you going to respond to that call, buddy? like What are we doing? And he's like, oh, I don't know. i don't know.
01:13:16
Keegan Drummond
just, I'm a, I'm to be a pastor. i'm like, no, yeah, that actually requires you to go do something. Like you don't just like get a microphone and then start a podcast. You know, it's like, you got to go, you got to go do something with that. You got to go get the education. you got to, there's a lot of parts. There's a lot of moving parts of that thing.
01:13:40
Keegan Drummond
And um yeah, I don't think people realize that when they go to Bible college.
01:13:45
Quinn
yeah and i think part of the reason too why i also went to bible college is because also want just kind of feel a sense of like belonging as well because that but there's a tight-knit community in that bible college and you can i mean yeah you could feel it but I think that's also part of the reason why i went is because going off like to a regular college just as also intimidating as well.
01:14:10
Quinn
i want to say regular, but like a ah university or a community college seemed more intimidating than being surrounded by people that you're familiar with.
01:14:20
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, that's true. It's just like the the people we grew up with. Also, the courses are easier. You know you don't have to take like calculus or something at a Bible college, whatever.
01:14:30
Quinn
for I don't think I graduated college.
01:14:32
Keegan Drummond
dont know
01:14:35
Quinn
I don't think I took a single. Yeah, I didn't take a single math course.
01:14:38
Keegan Drummond
I don't I took math in community college when I was in high school, and I got to apply that math credit to the science and faith requirement for my degree.
01:14:52
Quinn
Nice.
01:14:54
Keegan Drummond
Like, I know all about science and faith because I passed Math 103 College Algebra. I don't know how that works, but it did.
01:15:05
Quinn
What did I have to take? Because I probably had to apply some credit because I didn't take science and faith. And I didn't take math either. so I had to take...
01:15:12
Keegan Drummond
In college.
01:15:13
Quinn
Oh, no. I took i took a a um biology class through an online college. That's what I did.
01:15:21
Keegan Drummond
Nice. Yeah.
01:15:23
Quinn
That's what I did. took...
01:15:23
Keegan Drummond
hit
01:15:26
Quinn
I took an online ah course through a Christian college and was able to use a biology course to apply that to my science faith. That's what I did.
01:15:36
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. I mean, that's probably going to be a whole nother conversation we have at some point is like what Bible college is like and how,
01:15:47
Keegan Drummond
kind of crazy it was. And I wonder if it was kind of the same everywhere where, i don't know, like academics weren't really thing. um It was kind of a ministry too, in a way.
01:15:59
Quinn
It probably...
01:16:03
Keegan Drummond
and
01:16:03
Quinn
It probably just depends on what... uh, Bible college you went to, cause I'm sure there are some where it is very, is more academically rigorous where compared to probably the one went to, mean, it was a Bible college, but they're adjunct professors who are also working in full-time ministry as well.
01:16:22
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, I mean, it was a policy that they actually don't have full-time professors and they only have adjunct professors in ministry. So that probably does shape the sort of criteria.
01:16:31
Quinn
The academic rigor or yeah.
01:16:34
Keegan Drummond
Yeah, now that makes sense. Okay, that's probably a good place to wrap it. so I mean, um any concluding thoughts about um ministry? Anything you felt like you didn't say but would like to just get off your chest or...
01:16:50
Quinn
ah I think like i would say even if like you're not serving right now, it's totally fine. I think. You should probably cultivate your relationship with God first and foremost, and then serving in ministry. don't want to say is an afterthought, but is an after, like is a second secondary thing.
01:17:15
Quinn
i mean, right now, i mean, on my church that I'm attending, they would like to see people serve, but I'm like, I'm okay right now. like
01:17:23
Keegan Drummond
Hmm.
01:17:23
Quinn
And and that's that's fine to be in that place. I'm entering in a season where I am trying to build my life and build my relationship.
01:17:36
Quinn
Because I'm getting married Sunday, I could be a trying to cultivate my marriage and build that. Because think that's going to be my, that is going to be my first ministry is trying to build that relationship.
01:17:48
Quinn
And I think it's okay that your priorities are your, your family first. Yeah.
01:17:54
Keegan Drummond
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, I think the, the, the pursuit of Christ, like, you know, your calling might come out of that and your calling might be to be, ah you know, ah a husband, a father, you know, that, that, that might be the calling that comes out of that pursuit, you know, that vocation as it were.
01:18:19
Keegan Drummond
Um, but yeah, I don't, I don't think that like pursuing ministry as an end of itself is ever going to be helpful for anyone. And I feel like that's kind of what happened with a ah lot of the folks that we're going to have on the show is that it, it becomes the end in and of itself.
01:18:36
Quinn
Yeah.
01:18:38
Keegan Drummond
And that's where, that's where we'll see sort of the, um, the aftermath of that, I think.
01:18:38
Quinn
It's just like, yeah.
01:18:46
Quinn
Yeah, it's just like, don't place your identity in ministry. Your identity is not found in ministry. Your identity is found in Jesus Christ.
01:18:57
Keegan Drummond
Yeah.
01:18:59
Quinn
Yeah.
01:18:59
Keegan Drummond
Well, that's as good a place as any to leave it So, Quint Jummet, everyone.
01:19:04
Quinn
Yeah, agree.
01:19:05
Keegan Drummond
Thank you very much.