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Television Producer to Product Owner
27 Plays11 months ago
Phoebe, a product owner, discusses how her Springboard project caught the attention of a hiring manager that led to her current role at Podchaser.
Additionally, she shares insights into navigating the job market after being unable to complete the Springboard course. Phoebe explains how she strategically analyzed job postings to tailor her resume and case studies effectively.
Moreover, she provides an in-depth look at the day-in-the-life experience of a product owner.
Question for Phoebe or the host? Email us at alumnnipodcast@springboard.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Life After Tech Bootcamp, where I talk to a different springboard alum each week to see what they're up to now. I'm really excited about today's guest. She was one of the first students I met during my UX course, and we'll dive into that first meeting story in a bit. So to introduce Phoebe, Phoebe is a product owner at Pod Chaser.
00:00:41
Speaker
She was a director and producer of a small cable travel show before transitioning to the world of UX. Phoebe, welcome. It's so good to reconnect with you after all of these years. It is. Yeah, it's so good to see you. It's so good to be here. Thanks for having me.
00:00:56
Speaker
Yes, I remember we met, so Springboard will, at least for the UX course, I'm sure the other tracks too, they have you start with your capstone project. And for user testing, you test out your prototypes on other students. And I forget if you tested mine, but I definitely tested your, it was an app for books and I think still books.
00:01:22
Speaker
Yeah, you were part of my initial user research testing round where I think I asked you a million questions about how you pick a book to read and what books you like and who you go to for referrals.
Innovations and Career Opportunities in UX
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, you were amazing, by the way, as a as an interviewee. Oh, thank you. And thank you for reminding me it was the user research to define the problem, not prototyping. Thank you. Yes, everything's going back to me now. Yes, selecting books. Yeah, I know before we started recording, we were talking about
00:01:56
Speaker
different types of books that we like to read. And it is a fun way to connect. I often forget that that's a good, like people talk about music and people talk about teeny shows, but I think books kind of get forgotten about. They really do. And when I was doing that research, it was amazing to me when I realized just how many industries have recommendation algorithms and like the sophisticated suggestion systems
00:02:24
Speaker
And there really wasn't any for books. So that's, you know, somebody out there, feel free to jump on that bandwagon. Cause there's definitely opportunity there, I think. Yeah. And speaking on that project, I know there's something special about what came from that. Would you like to share? Yeah. So that project, I called it bookish and it really was all about discovering new books to read. Uh, and my current role, product owner at PodChaser, when I first applied, I was, I actually first applied for a project management role.
00:02:53
Speaker
And when they were vetting my application, they saw my case study. And Podchaser, for those who don't know, is a podcast discovery engine. So for podcast listeners, it's a great tool for discovering interesting podcasts that fall within like your
00:03:11
Speaker
favorite category, favorite genre, favorite niche type. So it's basically the podcast version of the app that I built in my capstone. And my boss has literally told me that one of the reasons they pushed me forward was because of that project and because of that case study and how it was written and how I'd researched it.
00:03:32
Speaker
Do those capstones guys, make sure those case studies are good. Yeah. And particularly if it's about something you're passionate about too. And not even just books in general, but defining that into a business case and optimizing.
00:03:47
Speaker
people's experience around books. That's, yeah, I love that story. And I'm so happy to have finally caught up with you to learn that. And I'm happy to be a part of the journey that led me here. I'm so honored. And oh my gosh, I'm so excited to
00:04:05
Speaker
fully catch up and just even learn more about you today through your episode. So let's go back to the beginning. Before you were interviewing me about how I pick out books, what are you doing?
Career Reassessment and UX Discovery
00:04:20
Speaker
You're a director, producer. I'm just imagining you were running around with a clipboard.
00:04:25
Speaker
more like a chicken with her head cut off to be honest. It was a really small town, small time cable show called food quest, which was all about travel, food and experiences on the North American continent. And that at the time was what I had always kind of dreamed of doing with my life. Like I've always loved film, I've always loved TV. It's a theater kid in high school, you know,
00:04:48
Speaker
So it was like that that was what I always imagined my dream job would be. And I know you had a similar experience, I think, right with fashion. It's like, this is what I've always dreamed of. And then you get there and then you go.
00:05:01
Speaker
Oh, but it's not quite what I thought it would be. It is falling short. And I think that's definitely what happened for me. It was an amazing job, but I worked seven days a week. And five of those seven days, I wasn't home. I was constantly busy. I was always tired. I was exhausted. Most of the time, I was overwhelmed. While it was an amazing lived experience, it was also kind of very all-consuming.
00:05:30
Speaker
And so yeah, it was one of those really fun moments when it happened, but in hindsight, very glad I left.
00:05:39
Speaker
Yes. Oh my gosh. Seven days a week. That is no personal time. And also I'm very, very impressed that you remembered that I also had the same experience. Yeah. That is incredible. Yes. Um, I can completely relate on that. And, you know, okay. So you realizing that seven days a week is not working for you. Wonder why. Um, sarcasm there. So what you kind of introduced
00:06:07
Speaker
You know, I'm, first of all, I can't imagine that if you're working this much and feeling this burnt out, how you had the energy to say, Hey, wait a minute.
00:06:20
Speaker
Well, I had external help in the form of a massive pandemic. When the pandemic hit, the show was canceled because it is very hard to film a travel show when all travel has come to a screeching halt. And we lost funding and we were really struggling to find ways to keep the
00:06:40
Speaker
keep the plot alive. And so the show got canceled. We didn't really have anything else going on at the production studio, which meant I was out of a job. I was sitting around in my living room eating way too many sun chips and just passing the time. And I was in a position where I did have that breathing room to think to myself kind of, okay,
00:07:06
Speaker
When all this is over, when the world comes back to being the world that we've known it as, what do I want to do? Do I want to go back to a profession where the absolute most is going to be asked of me every single day? And is that really something I think I can live up to?
00:07:23
Speaker
In the background of all of this, I was remembering conversations that I'd had with my younger brother, who actually passed away in 2019. He was 21 when he died, but even though he was so young, he had this really great approach to life where
00:07:42
Speaker
Where I was the career-driven, ambitious older sister who wanted to be this great producer, director who worked all the time and came home to see family on the holidays, Tom wanted the exact opposite. He had no interest in making everything in his life about work. He wanted to live and experience the world.
00:08:05
Speaker
spend his time with the people that mattered most to him and the places that he'd always dreamed of going. And during that pandemic I kind of sat there and I was like,
00:08:16
Speaker
Oh, was he right? Is that what's been missing from my life for the past year or so that I've been kind of in this production space? And I financially, I was lucky enough to have parents that I could fall back on. So I knew that I had a window. It wasn't a huge window. I had about, I could maybe last five to six months at the time, I think. And I knew that
00:08:42
Speaker
you know, production probably wasn't for me, or at least TV production. So I just kind of said, if I'm ever going to make a change, now is the time, you know, why not take the opportunity that's in front of me and see if I can find something new. Certainly. And that's such a profound story and so deep to like, getting that advice, honestly, from someone who's
00:09:08
Speaker
still part of your life, but not in the way you wish and still having them guide you like that. That's incredibly beautiful here. And what I'm also hearing is, you know, production, like it sounded like you still wanted to make something. Oh, definitely. I think one of the best parts of that period of my life was
00:09:30
Speaker
being able to watch that life cycle. And I use that word specifically because anyone in the UX course will have heard it a million times. But watching that life cycle of an idea that is cultivated and nurtured and then that you get to play a role in watching it bloom and blossom into a real thing that other people get to experience and enjoy and get value from.
00:09:54
Speaker
that experience really stuck with me. That was the one part of producing that I truly, truly loved. So I knew when I started my search, anywhere that I landed, I needed to be in a position where I could continue to do that. Certainly. So where did UX come about? Like how did you discover it?
00:10:16
Speaker
Instagram ad. Instagram ad. Oh, don't tell them that. They're listening. I know. But it's true. It was, ironically, it was actually it was an ad for a different UX bootcamp. It wasn't a springboard ad. It was a different bootcamp. But it was an ad for a UX UI bootcamp. And I remember seeing it and going,
00:10:38
Speaker
boot camps are a little suspicious but what the heck is ux ui what does that mean what is what is this and you know i definitely was interested in the tech industry i'd seen a lot of good things about working in tech and obviously again you know with the context of this being during pandemic times the tech world was from my perspective so insulated from what was kind of devastating the industry i was leaving and that was um you know the
00:11:07
Speaker
the impact that the world and the state of the world had on the industry, like tech was just this calm little bubble of remote work. I was like, oh, that is a pie I want a slice of, right? So yeah, I saw that ad and I was like, well, what is this? Did a little bit of Googling and I think one of the first articles I read mentioned the phrase behavioral psychology and I was hooked. I was like, yes, this is the thing, right?
00:11:37
Speaker
that's amazing and yeah that's it sounds like you went down a bit of a rabbit hole in the sense of you had no idea that this type of design
00:11:47
Speaker
profession existed. So what made you realize boot camps weren't sketchy? Because I want way to and I love really, yes, I actually thought boot camps were a scam. I generally thought that. And it was by chance, I was talking to someone whose brother I want to say was pretty high up at another boot camp. And
00:12:14
Speaker
I was like, oh, are they really getting those types of salaries? It all just sounds too good to be true. And I don't know about you, but the New Yorker in me is like, I don't trust anything.
Springboard Experience and Transition to Project Management
00:12:27
Speaker
And when he told me this guy had nothing to lose by telling me this, he's like, no, people actually are getting those types of jobs. And I
00:12:35
Speaker
it made me take a step back and really research things. But this isn't about me. I want to hear how you got over this. No, I had a very similar experience, except it wasn't a specific person. It was Reddit. So I actually went on Reddit, which I'm, I am, you know, old internet, very much a millennial.
00:12:53
Speaker
Um, so I'm, I'm a Reddit person and I remember going on Reddit and looking up, um, like the legitimacy of tech bootcamps. Is this really worth it? Is it worth doing? I also went on YouTube and was like, I Googled or YouTubed, um, uh, UX bootcamp graduates and like bootcamp graduation stories.
00:13:12
Speaker
Um, actually a podcast like this would have been really great back then. Um, but I was, I did a bunch of due diligence because it was kind of one of those like, Oh, this sounds too good to be true. Like I'm going to do this, this one course. And at the end of it, I'm going to have a job and.
00:13:27
Speaker
everything's gonna work out, that's very Snow White to me, I don't know about this. But yeah, on Reddit, I found posts of people saying, oh, it's totally worth it. And that's actually how I found Springboard, because there were so many posts of people specifically mentioning this course as a, oh, I took this course, or I have a friend who took this course, and they're now employed at Insert Household Name Company here. And that was when I was kind of like, hmm, okay, so this may actually,
00:13:56
Speaker
This might be worth it. This might be worth my time certainly and I Can't even imagine there's some underground like let's just talk about springboard on reddit like these are Most likely real people that are sharing their real stories. So yeah, I Worded that weird. I gotta cut that out Point is like, you know people on reddit are not
00:14:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's not a boring situation at all. It's Reddit. Reddit is like, and that's why I've always like going there because I feel like Reddit is very much like a direct line to other real people who are talking about lived experiences, which really lended a lot of legitimacy to me. I was like this, okay, so yeah, this is a thing. This is a thing that's worth it. And I went to springboard and did a little bit more research and that was that.
00:14:48
Speaker
Fantastic. So in the course, you know, you're working on your capstone for bookish. What really helped you in your career now? Like, what did you learn at springboard that you're still using today?
00:15:04
Speaker
Um, like everything. And I'm not exaggerating. I mean, one of the most, one thing I've always been really grateful for with my experience in this course was how thoroughly they dissect and then explain an outline
00:15:21
Speaker
the product lifecycle and all of the work that falls within each phase. Because as a product owner at a startup, you wear a few different hats. We're a smaller team, so we don't have dedicated UX researchers. We don't have a dedicated team of product, anything really. We're only a handful of people, and we all have to work together to make it work. So that deep dive that the course
00:15:51
Speaker
took into that life cycle all of the various pieces of the puzzle that have to fall into place in order for your product to
00:16:02
Speaker
grow to come together. Yeah, that was invaluable. And I think, you know, one thing I definitely got wrong was I took a little too much time in all of those chapters really trying to absorb that information, but I'm also glad that I did absorb as much of it as I did because it has, I use it every day.
00:16:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's been invaluable. Certainly. And I also think when you're doing your capstone, you're kind of like a little mini startup. Yeah, exactly. And granted, you know, I've only really worked at Verizon, which is a huge enterprise, and I'm strictly doing UX towards the latter half of the process.
00:16:46
Speaker
you really kind of learn how to define the business problem and looking at Google Analytics, like those are things I'm not using now, but knowing kind of how all those parts go together for my niche role, I certainly lends itself like
00:17:01
Speaker
you kind of understand a little bit more about the business of UX before getting into your job. 100%. And I think what you said just there about how understanding that context and how that where your niche role kind of fits into that bigger picture, it really can be so
00:17:20
Speaker
So empowering, I think, because it really having those having an idea of where those kind of rough guardrails are almost where one face starts and another ends. I think that can be really informative really empowering when it comes to stepping into a new career and into a new role, it really helps to ground you in.
00:17:39
Speaker
Um, that sense of, you know, at least I have a basic understanding of what I'm supposed to be doing and what I'm not. Um, so any like, uh, imposter syndrome can really, it just really, it really just wipes that away, or at least it did for me. Oh, I love to hear that the course wiped away some of that imposter syndrome because that's, I think
00:17:57
Speaker
Who hasn't felt that? If you haven't ever felt that, I would like to know. I would love to know. What potion did you drink? Share the recipe. Yes, please. And can we just get that at Trader Joe's? Can we add that to some sort of a mailer? That would be great.
00:18:16
Speaker
Yes. So I'd love to understand, I know you weren't able to finish the course, but was there anything within your journey during the course after you had to stop it that you did outside to kind of figure out where you were going or maybe even help you get to where you are now?
00:18:36
Speaker
So yeah, I did not fully finish the course because unfortunately I ran out of time. I had my own financial clock that I was kind of racing against and it definitely ran out on me, which at the time was devastating, but it did mean it forced me to kind of sit down and really
00:18:52
Speaker
kind of take a look at the transferable skills I had learned and it forced me to look at a lot of these product practices from a different in a different way or through different ones because obviously I reached that time clock and that meant that it was you know it was past time for me to have a job and so I needed to really push myself into some sort of a space
00:19:14
Speaker
And I found a lot of overlap with project management, because in a weird way, project management is kind of a product role in and of itself, except the product you're working on is processes and time management and team coordination. It's not like a, I want to say a tangible product, but I don't know if a website counts.
00:19:37
Speaker
Uh, but it, it really forced me to reexamine, um, what I had learned as a part of the course and that I then took all of those skills. I took everything from the product lifecycle to the, um, ideate, define, um,
00:19:56
Speaker
double diamond product cycle map. I took that and applied it into the project management role that I ended up in. I ended up completely changing the way that they did all of their creative project management. I turned it into this product-esque agile cycle that dramatically increased efficiency.
00:20:15
Speaker
and found, hey, you know, like these skills that I've learned, they're not just applicable within this one space. They can be super valuable when it comes to the way people work together and the way that we communicate as a team and work processes, SOPs, stuff like that. And it just, it really, it felt like a learning experience because I was testing out
00:20:38
Speaker
I was like flexing muscles that I didn't know were there, if that makes sense, and strengthening them. And I think that has definitely paid off now that I am officially in the product world. Absolutely. I can definitely see how you were able to translate everything.
00:20:53
Speaker
Particularly with your background in film and TV. I'd love to understand the exact timeline. So you had to end the course Were you? How did you get this job? It sounds you know, I know a lot of springboarders will go through the career coach that is offered with the job guarantee But it sounds like you have to take a different approach to your circumstances. Yeah, so I
00:21:18
Speaker
I, and I really, I don't want to say this because I don't want anybody else to feel this way, but I at the time did not feel confident that I would be able to break into the product world because I hadn't finished the course. And because of that, I kind of had a, had a frank moment with myself where I was like, okay, we're not going to be able to do that. So what else can we do? Project management.
00:21:36
Speaker
And once the decision was made, that was it. And that led to tons of cold emailing on LinkedIn and applying to 30-something job postings a day on LinkedIn and Indeed and any other sites I could find. And I really kind of took this approach of
00:21:55
Speaker
doesn't matter how big or how small. The only thing I knew I needed was a remote position, and that was the only filter I applied. And then I just threw my application out there. And I did include my work from the course. I always submitted my portfolio as a part of that process, which even applying for a project management role, I mean,
00:22:18
Speaker
The first role I had was a project manager for the creative team at a digital marketing agency. And they looked at my portfolio piece and thought it was impressive. So those case studies are not just going to be helpful if you are looking for a product role. If you're looking to apply those skills or apply what you've learned or apply
00:22:39
Speaker
that experience to anything else, it is fully transferable. And that's what I did. And I did it quite successfully. I was actually really surprised at how quickly I managed to land that project management role. I think it was only about three weeks after I had stepped away from the course that I got the first interview with that agency.
00:22:58
Speaker
That's incredible. Three weeks is like three seconds and job hunting time. I swear that's incredible. So I'd love to understand, you know, we're really taught to structure our case studies for UX jobs. And obviously if you have different goals, um, the career coaches start to help you finagle that. Like if you want to go to UX research, but I'd love to understand how you laid out your case studies for
00:23:25
Speaker
project management roles. Was it any different? Were there things you had to focus on specifically? What was that like? Um, so I went, I combed back through it and I peppered in some additional details into how I had managed my own personal projects. So I talked about, um, like personal deadlines I'd set as a part of the work. And I talked about the juggling of,
00:23:51
Speaker
multiple juggling of multiple stages or multiple research types. I talked about how I organized that research, how I planned out the approach a little bit more. Because a big part of project management is planning, right? So I highlighted all of the planning that I'd done, not just the results that I'd gotten. And I think that was definitely helpful. And then also on my resume, on my LinkedIn portfolio, I threw in a bunch of keywords that are relevant to the project management field.
00:24:21
Speaker
So things like time management, efficiency, things like that. Slip those in where I could to make sure that I was highlighting those aspects of the product work that I had done. Oh, interesting. And then what other resources did you rely on as far as job hunting? Did you have a friend who kind of knew the career, or did you find really interesting articles? Was there anything else that helped guide you?
00:24:50
Speaker
A few articles, yep, I also watched a few YouTube videos as well, kind of like a day in the life of the project manager. But I did take, I took a little bit of time to do some research to make sure I understood what I was getting myself into. But probably the most valuable resource, weirdly enough, was reading the job descriptions for the project management roles that were out there at the time. I took like a full day, I think, about a week into the job search to just go, okay,
00:25:19
Speaker
I'm sending out a resume that has a bunch of words on it that makes sense to me. But I don't know what they want to hear. What are they looking for? Maybe I need to step back and do a little bit of user research of my own for this and treat the companies I want to get hired at like they're the users I'm trying to appeal to. Let me better understand them. And so I sat down.
00:25:42
Speaker
I just read a bunch of job descriptions and looked at keywords, phrasing to kind of better understand what they were looking for. And then I took that and I applied it to my resume and I applied it to my LinkedIn profile. I made tweaks to my case studies and my portfolio because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't just saying what I wanted to say, I was saying what they needed to hear.
00:26:04
Speaker
Certainly. No, I think that's an amazing tactic. I'm so glad you shared it. Just reading all of those job descriptions. We had another guest, Rachel, who just interviewed person after person just to understand what being in the UX field was like. So similar patterns here. Filing things and finding the key points, or I guess in UX you would call them key pain points that you can solve for. Exactly.
00:26:34
Speaker
That's a very cool strategy. And one thing I do, I had considered a career in project management as well before I discovered UX. And one thing I noticed is project management honestly sounds like the term engineer.
00:26:51
Speaker
It's so broad, you can project manage anything, but I think a lot of people feel if you're a project manager somewhere, you can do that anywhere. And I don't think that's true. It's kind of like saying you're an engineer, like you can be a software engineer, but that doesn't mean you can just go be a civil engineer.
From Project Management to Product Owner Role
00:27:09
Speaker
So it lets you kind of understand your perspective of project management. Like if someone's really looking to get into it, what to look out for and what to really understand about the job as a whole.
00:27:21
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Actually, this is a great question because I started as a project manager at a marketing agency and really struggled because marketing is just not my wheelhouse. And when you're project managing for a creative department at a marketing agency, you are also contributing to those assets. When it comes to copy or direction for any marketing images or videos that are being used,
00:27:51
Speaker
There's a misconception with project management that you are removed from the team that you work with and that your central focus is on deadlines and making sure things are done and keeping costs low. But there is a whole other side to the field that is all about having a complete understanding of what your industry is about and more specifically, the goals of your team and the work that your team does. In marketing, I was useless because I do not have a good mind for
00:28:20
Speaker
marketing copy or for solid marketing strategy. It's just not me and not who I am. But what I did have a good mind for was product, which is why I left that agency and looked for a new position in tech. And that's how I ended up at Podchaser because I knew I could definitely apply
00:28:41
Speaker
Everything I knew about work processes and efficiency, time management, collaboration, I'd have a much easier time applying that or fulfilling that role at a tech company because I'm so familiar with the product cycle and with the work developers do, the work that product teams do. That familiarity, that understanding is so, it is such an important part of the job and it allowed me to
00:29:05
Speaker
fill that role successfully where at the marketing agency I had just bombed.
00:29:12
Speaker
Oh, dear, but you said you were able to refinangle their whole strategy. So it sounds like you did have some success there. Oh, well, when it came to the actual process of how the work got done that that I was able to do, but I think that's because I treated it like a UX project. Like I looked at it like my user group is the designers, my stakeholders are the client managers, and my product is the way that they work together. So how can I enable these
00:29:47
Speaker
How can I enable communication across these different channels between these two completely different remote teams in a way that is efficient and easy and not at all stressful since they already have stressful jobs as it is?
00:30:04
Speaker
And so in that area, I was fine, but I don't think I did as well there because I was marketing gifted per se. The marketing half of the job, which is helping with the assets, with pulling together proper copy, with making sure that copy is actually good or that the assets themselves are good, participating in those brainstorms, that was very much outside of my comfort zone and that's where I definitely struggled.
00:30:32
Speaker
When it came to the actual work itself and how everybody worked together as a team, that was a lot easier for me to tackle because I had that product mindset of, oh, this is a problem and it needs to be solved. So let me tackle that. Certainly. And that's a great realization to have. I think a lot of people just struggle in their careers just because they don't know what they're good at. Yeah. Well, that's a very incredible thing that you were able to pull that out. And also to be slightly critical of this company.
00:30:59
Speaker
Did they really make you responsible for content strategy? Because that's a whole other specialty in itself. But so that's the thing about project management is you're more than just a project manager, you are also an active member of the teams that you're working with. So you will always be involved in those conversations. And
00:31:19
Speaker
in a lot of cases, expected to offer some insight. Because you do have a very unique position when you're a project manager. You're a part of the team, you're within the work, but you're also above it. So that third-party perspective can be so, so valuable. And in smaller digital agencies like the one I was at, it's really important for the project manager to be able to be that team player. At that company, it just wasn't the right fit for me.
00:31:44
Speaker
But when I got to Podchaser, I really hit my stride and I'm so glad I found this company and I will probably never leave. Fantastic. Well, tell me about the interview process for Podchaser.
00:32:01
Speaker
What was, what does that look like for you. So it was multi step. There's as our most these days from what I've heard. There's the initial meeting with their operations guy then I met a few members of the team, talked to some of the key stakeholders that are important to the product development cycle.
00:32:21
Speaker
And it was a lot of big conversations. They didn't have me do a test project or anything at the time. But they did definitely talk me through a few different scenarios to see how I would handle missing a deadline or high risk projects, things like that. And that's how I got my foot in the door. We actually joke about it now. Me and one of my teammates, we joke now about how
00:32:50
Speaker
When I was, my final interview was with Bradley, who's the CEO of the company, and he explicitly asked me, do you just want to do project management or do you have an interest in moving to product in the future because I'm looking to hire a project manager? And I said, oh no, project management is great. That is totally where I want to be. And one year later on the same interview date was when my move to product owner was announced.
00:33:21
Speaker
So sorry, Bradley. I really meant it when I said it, but yeah, the transition came anyway. You know what? I think things are just meant to work out how they're meant to work out. And you're a different person a year later. Like, how would you be able to foresee everything? Oh, yeah. And I think we like me and Bradley have joked about it a few times since then. He gives me he makes fun of me for all the time. It's very much like a
00:33:47
Speaker
I asked you, and I'm like, I know, I'm sorry. But when the opportunity presented itself, it was kind of one of those, the world went into slow motion moments. And I was like, oh my gosh, has my time really come?
00:34:02
Speaker
But also, like, you know, what would product look like at that company? Maybe even if that job did come up and it wasn't the exact role you were looking for, you probably wouldn't have asked for it. Well, so it wasn't a defined, we kind of defined the role as I made the switch. So I was a project manager to start. And then over the first six months that I was at the company, we
00:34:30
Speaker
We were looking at the product department and myself and Dave, who I work with quite closely, were talking about how we can best organize as a team to make sure that we can achieve all of the goals that we have for the product. And there are many. I mean, we are big dreamers at Podchaser. And we'd had a couple of conversations, just like
00:34:59
Speaker
product brainstormed really. We had a mirror board open. We're throwing post-its everywhere. How can we do this? How can we move things around to make it work?
00:35:08
Speaker
And after a couple of weeks of back and forth and doing that, me not thinking for a split second that any sort of a potential change to my role was coming, he was like, hey, so we've, in these brainstorm, talked a bit about how having an additional person on the product team to be more of the backlog owner and to work directly with the developers would be useful. What if that person was you? And I said, me?
00:35:34
Speaker
There's no one else in this call? Me? Sure. And jumped on the opportunity and ran with it. And I'm so, so grateful that he and the whole upper management at Podchaser were kind of willing to take that leap of faith on me and willing to give me that opportunity. I definitely took it and ran with it. And they tell me I'm doing okay so far, so. I think if you weren't doing well, you would now. Yeah.
00:36:03
Speaker
Like I've definitely seen people where, you know, I've seen with various managers, like if that person's going to get fired, like they're going to go there. But yeah, I feel like we have a great team and I think.
00:36:20
Speaker
We have a great team. We found this really beautiful product cycle sweet spot that we're working with now which is kind of a new way that we've defined the way that we work and the way that we develop our product and the way that we try to continue to improve it day after day after day. I mean, startup culture means we're constantly looking at ways that we can improve, iterate, and just ship stuff, right? Like, I think they
00:36:47
Speaker
Kind of a common idea in the startup space is just build as much as you can and throw it out there, see what sticks. And if it fails, it fails. But if it succeeds, then awesome. Run with it. And we very much embody that. Better is good is kind of our motto at the moment. Better is good. And that was the sentiment when I made the switch. I'm still here, so it's going well. And yeah, it's a great team to be a part of.
00:37:16
Speaker
That's fantastic. And it sounds like you got, this is basically a long winded way to say you got promoted. So congratulations on that. One thing I would love to know, so I think some people are really, you know, start up that word is just so buzzy. And I don't think a lot of people understand what that means, but they just want to work for one. So I'd love to understand kind of the mindset people need to
00:37:41
Speaker
get into a startup maybe when they're a little bit more junior. Granted, it sounds like, you know, you were able to really leverage your first job, but what would you have to say on that? Yes, I think startup culture is very much, it's very fast paced, but it's also very fun and casual. Like one thing that I really love about PodChaser is how passionate everybody in the company is about podcasting and about
00:38:10
Speaker
podcasting data and intelligence and making that accessible and kind of opening that space up to everybody, podcasters included, so that you can truly leverage this media form.
00:38:21
Speaker
kind of in the modern world and in the world at large.
Podchaser's Work Environment and Culture
00:38:25
Speaker
You have these really passionate people who are willing to take put that extra effort in, put in those extra hours to wear those extra hats for the team. It is very fast-paced. There is a lot going on at all times so juggling is kind of a must but it's fun and it's exciting and there's something new every other week which is
00:38:46
Speaker
So cool. I mean, listen, organizing project kickoff calls can definitely take a little bit of time, but getting to have them as often as we do and getting to dive down these different rabbit holes is just, it's such a dream job for me because that's very much in line with what I was doing before. Working in television, working as a producer on that show, we needed to have a handful of five minute segments to fill each episode. Typically we aimed for about five.
00:39:14
Speaker
So that means for every episode, you've got five projects. You've got about 10 to 12 episodes a season minimum. So that is a lot of projects that you're diving in and out of every other day. So that fast paced environment was something that I was used to, something I enjoyed, and something I've definitely found again here in the startup world. That being said, I know it's not always for everyone. So one thing I think is super important before you enter your job search after a bootcamp like the springboard one is understanding the
00:39:44
Speaker
work-life balance you're after and the type of work that you want to be doing. And more importantly, how you want to be working, right? Like I know that I like to be busy. I like to do something new every week. I like to collaborate and run around and I like a long to-do list. So for me startups were, it was a perfect fit, but I also know it's not for everybody. Certainly. Yeah. I know some people are just, I need my 40 hours a week, maybe a little less if it's remote.
00:40:13
Speaker
And you can get away with that sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. And also from what I've gleaned, startups, depending on your funding, things are a lot more lean. Like at Verizon, we have all these resources, except I can do a user test whenever I want. And those are expensive. When I worked for startups, we were doing a lot of things manually. So I know you haven't necessarily worked at a big enterprise, but what's that?
00:40:43
Speaker
Are you experienced that leanness? Are there things you have to cut corners around? Definitely. Because we place a big emphasis on the, and I'm going to curse, so heads up everybody, but we put a big emphasis on the build fast break shit motto that is very common in the product world. And because of that, we don't do a ton of preemptive user testing.
00:41:09
Speaker
We have kind of these funnels in place that mean that we're constantly getting new insights from both current product users, current pro clients, and also prospective ones. But we're not doing a ton of active outreach before we build. We use the information that we have.
00:41:28
Speaker
to try and paint as full of a picture as we can. And we also do a lot of work with our stakeholders. I spend a lot of time working with our client success team, with our sales team, with our marketing team to fully understand kind of what the word is on the product, I guess.
00:41:46
Speaker
And we have to use a lot of that. And we also have to do a lot of inferring. I spend a ton of time looking at our event tracking analytics and understand Google Analytics and trying to piece together the puzzle that is each user's journey across the site, looking for those holes that need to be patched.
00:42:05
Speaker
So while we don't have that fully fledged UX team and we don't have all those resources, there is a fun challenge in there of, OK, well, how can I, as a product, as a sole product owner, how can I kind of plug those holes and fill those gaps with the information that I do have? And then we build fast. We do a ton of MVP work. And we're very lean with those MVPs. We will shave scope down until it is exactly what we need it to be. And then we throw it out there into the world and we go,
00:42:36
Speaker
Voila. Here it is. And we watch and we wait and we collect feedback. Again, we go through that whole cycle one more time and then we iterate. But we really rely on that. Let's get something together. Let's get something out there and let's see what sticks. Mentality. And it does work. It does. It does work quite wonderfully for us at least. Certainly. So yeah, it sounds like you're dealing with a lot of
00:43:03
Speaker
wantitative data. And I think you've shared something really interesting in that you've noticed within Springboard and a lot of junior designers, they have to prototype things and test things before things are even built and launched. And I remember even at Verizon, we were doing that for a massive product launch and I was kind of like, wait,
00:43:24
Speaker
We're not going to be user testing some of this stuff. Obviously some of it was, but not to the extent I, in my own little opinion, felt it should be. So it just kind of blew my mind that you would just build it, let people use it. And yeah, in some ways it's kind of high risk, high reward. It definitely is. I think what we do at Podchaser is we've really begun to leverage what we call internal testing. So we will push.
00:43:54
Speaker
a certain work live to pod chaser staff members, and then we'll enlist them as kind of a user testing substitute. And mostly because a lot of our internal teams, while they are familiar with the product, they're also very familiar with our personas and the use cases that we're building for. So we'll throw things in front of them with little to no explanation and just go, hey, here's a thing. Go use it. What do you think? And we'll do these internal testing loops
00:44:24
Speaker
to find those bugs, to make sure that we're not missing any roots or important exit points, or to make sure that wayfinding is there, to make sure the product can stand on its own. And then once that internal testing round is done, then we'll push it live, and then we'll see what happens. But because it's internal, we're able to do it so quickly. It is a Slack link to a general channel, and whoever can jump in and do it does.
00:44:53
Speaker
That is one thing I think that is great about our team is how willing people are to dive in and to click the link and to collaborate that way. But yeah, that's kind of been our workaround at least. But no, I totally agree. That is one area that you do see there isn't as big of an emphasis on that out in the product world as there is in the course. Certainly. And also, I think that's a great workaround, testing it on employees who aren't necessarily
00:45:23
Speaker
close to the product while they might sell it or market it, actually using it. And they're still looking at things with fresh eyes. And that's very valuable. Today, we just had a work share. And while we all work on the shop flows for the wireless products, there's still certain scenarios that I'm not familiar with. So I can look at things with fresh eyes. And it does say something when
00:45:53
Speaker
What am I trying to say? I think when you're really in a project for so long, it is so hard to miss things.
Collaboration and Technical Understanding
00:46:02
Speaker
So I thought it was, it was really interesting, like studying some of the use cases where things failed in school. And then when you actually are in it, you're like, Oh, I absolutely see why things fail in the real world. You just, your head's so in it. Um, so that's a really interesting workaround.
00:46:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think also one of the great benefits of this is, you know, while we might be close to the product from a product perspective, sales teams, marketing teams, client success teams, all of these other teams, they have their own unique perspective and relationship. And I've definitely found personally, like reaching out to these teams of people and doing that internal pass through.
00:46:42
Speaker
the feedback that I get is so valuable. And because they're looking at these things, these new releases from this completely different perspective, they're seeing gaps or seeing opportunities in a lot of cases that I completely missed because it's just not within, um, it's, it's just not something you'd see through the lens that I'm looking at it through. You know what I mean? So it's, yeah, it's been, it's been super valuable for us. Highly recommend that it's to give it a try.
00:47:11
Speaker
Certainly. And I think you highlighted something really interesting where it's so important once you get that job to talk to your various stakeholders about what their job is like. Like I know when I started, I would take time to just have little coffee chats with people and say, what is your job like? And it really gave me some unique perspectives on what they look for and therefore helped me do my job better.
00:47:37
Speaker
Definitely. I think collaboration as a product person, regardless of what realm of product you work in, having that collaborative relationship with stakeholders and with developers. I have
00:47:52
Speaker
I have amazing relationships with the developers that I work with. And I honestly lean on them a lot for their input, for tech direction. Just building those relationships, cultivating them and maintaining them is such an underrated part of the job. But it can be so valuable because I've had the exact same experience as you. Having those conversations are just, it really tees you up to be able to then ask those bigger questions later and to do valuable work together, which I think at the end of the day is what we're all after.
00:48:22
Speaker
Certainly. And that actually made me think, I know a lot of people trying to get into the industry, they don't, you know, UX centers, they haven't really worked with engineers, most people. And was that ever a question you had to navigate? I know for me, that made me sweat because I hadn't worked with them in the capacity I think they wanted me to answer to. Yeah, no, it, it was, um,
00:48:50
Speaker
It was a, what's the right way to put this? I would definitely say working with developers was very intimidating to me at first because they are so smart. Like the team that I work with, probably some of the smartest people I've ever met, and walking into that room knowing that there's a language they speak that I don't have a dictionary for is very, it is very intimidating, you know, that
00:49:24
Speaker
imposter syndrome will rear its head back up for some people because it definitely did for me. I think the first, the first time I ran a sprint planning call, I had the fan on, I was wearing a t-shirt, I was like, I was sweating, I had five glasses of water next to me because I was like, oh my gosh, here we go. But at the same time, I think, you know, developers that develop, they're not scary, they're people and they can be really fun to work with. Like I, I don't know if maybe it's just because I'm
00:49:46
Speaker
What was the, oh, I just forgot the phrase.
00:49:53
Speaker
kind of blessed with a team that I work with, but they're an invaluable resource, especially as a product owner. When you're managing a backlog, one of the hardest questions to answer is time. How long is this going to take me? How big of an effort is this? Where are the rabbit holes within this piece that we've put together? Like, okay, as a product team, we have researched
00:50:19
Speaker
We have shaped, we've defined, we have this beautiful design that we want to build. It's beautiful. When you take that to a developer, there's an inevitable moment when they're going to start poking holes in it. And that moment, it's a really beautiful moment because in that space, you get to
00:50:41
Speaker
realize a dream it sounds sounds maybe a little bit of a corny way to put it but you're that is where you take something out of your imagination and you start to bring it into reality um and you're only going to be able to do that if you have that relationship with developers um and in my experience like developers are really
00:51:01
Speaker
patient people. I know that the ones I work with are, because the number of times that I've said they've explained something to me and I've said, right, but what do you mean? Because I don't speak developer. I know it probably drives them crazy, but every single one of them is so great about taking the time to break things down. I would actually say what I do recommend, and this is something that I did that I found hugely helpful, is take some time to go on YouTube and to understand
00:51:27
Speaker
the very basics, not of coding itself, but of the way that back end systems are built, the way that data moves, how data pipelines work, how that connects to a front end, the way that those two pieces of a product come together. If you have a good understanding of the overarching arching architecture of that space, the
00:51:52
Speaker
the overarching architecture of that space, it can be really, really helpful when you're trying to prioritize a backlog or groom a backlog, build a project, things like that. Yeah, the familiarity can be super valuable. Certainly. And you gave some great terminology there, but if someone were to go search for that, what words or phrases would you type into YouTube to get a video like that?
00:52:17
Speaker
Yeah, so I think it really depends on what exactly you're looking for. But I would say backend data structures is a great one.
00:52:27
Speaker
The front end to back end endpoint connections is another good one. It depends on the data system you use, but understanding a little bit of the basics of machine learning, because we do some machine learning at PodChaser, or understanding the basics of the tech niche that your company falls into, I think can also be super valuable. So for me, that was
00:52:54
Speaker
really having a good solid understanding of databases and data systems and how those systems function, how they're built, the maintenance of that as well. Yeah, things like that would be a good place to start, I would say. But what I did when I started looking was I actually asked our engineering manager for a list and said, where should I start? So if you are in a position to ask somebody within the tech field,
00:53:19
Speaker
totally do because just like us product nerds how we love to talk product I promise you tech nerds love to talk tech so if you ask they will answer I believe you I believe you I think people who get into software engineering it's almost dare I say a lifestyle like their lives sort of revolve around and especially ones that are very passionate about it especially I think in startup life they just want to constantly hone their skills keep
00:53:47
Speaker
you know, their life is building something.
Personal Insights and Career Advice
00:53:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah, it's and I think it's a great habit that that life learner
00:53:56
Speaker
Lifelong learning habit, I think, is what it's called, right? Where you're constantly looking at, well, you're almost treating yourself like a product, right? Like you're looking at yourself and your current version. And OK, how can I iterate? Where are my problem spaces? What are my pain points? And how can I build on those to create an even better version of me? Developers look at themselves the way that they build. How can I refine this stack of code? How can I improve this? How can I minimize my tech debt in my day-to-day life?
00:54:25
Speaker
And I think it's, I think it's super valuable. I know I definitely apply products, lifecycle things to me in the way I manage my day to day things now. So certainly, and you gave an example as to how you read all the different job descriptions to do that. So absolutely. Yeah, I truly feel like it's, you know, I go back and forth. Like I know fashion very much was my identity for a while. And then when I
00:54:52
Speaker
literally said I broke up with fashion. I realized that wasn't healthy. So it's been interesting finding a healthy balance between being a UX designer, but also thinking everything is user experience my whole life, my whole thoughts, how I navigate problems and situations, it's an experience and how could things be optimized. It's it's a
00:55:15
Speaker
Very fascinating. Tech is a unique place. There is a meta rabbit hole here that you could definitely fall down for a solid.
00:55:23
Speaker
week probably. Certainly, certainly. Yeah, big conversations there. But I think it's I think that's one of the cool things about product work is it is a completely different way to look at the world that we love it and the way that we interact with it. And once I think it's kind of inevitable, you know, like once you start really paying attention, and I think, you know, the boot camp like springboards, like that, that kind of kicks that process off.
00:55:49
Speaker
Once you have these thought patterns, once you understand them and the way that they can truly work for improvement and innovation, it's almost, it becomes really hard to not do that in day-to-day life. The amount of times that I'll open my banking app and go, see, now if you just move this one button here, or if you just, and it's all the time, my family,
00:56:18
Speaker
I absolutely hate it at this point because it's awful, but yeah. We can't help it. We can't help it. We can't help it. Well, with that, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to share?
00:56:34
Speaker
I think we had a really good conversation, actually. This was a great talk. I enjoyed myself as well. Yeah, no, this has been awesome. I think the only thing I would say, if there's anybody sitting in a boot camp right now listening to this,
00:56:50
Speaker
Patience is key and persistence is important. Like if this is, if product is something that you are passionate about and it's something that you want, you are ready to kind of throw yourself into, then just do it. Do it and ride that wave and see where it takes you. But don't lose, don't lose that faith and don't lose that hope. And when that opportunity does pop up and I'm very sure that it will,
00:57:19
Speaker
do not pass it by, grab that bull by the horns. Certainly. No, I think that's key. It's hard to tell someone, I think, to be patient when they just want something to happen. But it's so true. It's something you can't really control. You can do a lot about it, but it's not something you can control completely. And not being in control of things is for a lot. Yeah.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah it's it's yeah and I think you know especially the job hunting it can be so daunting and that imposter syndrome can be so hard to beat but it is it is just a piece of the process you know there isn't there are those greener pastures exist on the other side you know and you will get there you just have to have to stick with it.
00:58:10
Speaker
Certainly. And with that, you know, where, Phoebe, do you see yourself going? You are very happy at your job right now. I feel I could talk about this for like whole podcast series. Oh, I totally could. It's awful. I'm the worst. When you get me started, I just can't seem to stop. I honestly see myself
00:58:32
Speaker
continuing to push PodJaser to newer, better heights and introducing new features. I love this product. I'm super lucky to have found a team and a company with a culture that resonates so well with me. Yeah, you'll probably find me here. If we had another conversation another year from now, I don't think much will have changed.
00:59:00
Speaker
That's amazing. Well, considering how things change week by week there, it sounds like things will change, but things won't change. Yeah. Same thing. Well, different thing. Same place. I don't really know how to word those very well. But yeah, it's like... Same place different stuff. Yeah, there we go. Same place different stuff. That's a good way to put it.
00:59:23
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story. Would you be open to listeners connecting with you on social media? Yeah, definitely. I've got LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram. Please feel free. On LinkedIn, you'll find me at my full name, which is Phoebe Neve Stacey. It's spelled super weird, so bear with me. It's P-H-O-E-B-E-N-I-A-M-H. It's Irish. And my last name is Stacey, S-T-A-C-E-Y.
00:59:52
Speaker
want to reach out connect shoot me a message please feel free i can literally talk about this for days so amazing i'm sure you would be an amazing connection to have i'm certainly happy that we've stayed connected kind of we have i think at heart we have we just have our actually have
01:00:12
Speaker
spoken but and you know that being said for anyone listening if anyone has any questions for myself or Vivi that I could answer on a future episode please email me at alumnipodcast at springboard.com Vivi again thank you so much for your time and it was a pleasure talking to you yeah you as well thanks for having me