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S4.E5: Willow (1988) | Val Kilmer, Deleted Scenes & The History of Tir Asleen w/ @slimeandslashers
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Welcome to Season 4, Episode 5 of The Average. Tonight, we’re putting down the pickaxes and picking up the magic wands as we kick off our Sword and Sorcery Series with the 1988 George Lucas/Ron Howard masterpiece: WILLOW. But there’s a catch: the movie you saw on screen is only half the story. Tonight, we’re joined by the incredible Kelsi (@superkickingit / Kelsi’s Nostalgic Life) to dive deep into the official Willow novelization. WHAT DID THE MOVIE CUT OUT? 📖 From the "Fish Boy" lake monster to the tragic, stone-cold backstory of Sorsha’s father, the Wayland Drew novelization contains world-building and grit that never made it to the final theatrical cut. We’re breaking down: Extended Lore: The dark history of Bavmorda and Fin Raziel’s rivalry. Deleted Scenes: The "Fish Boy" sequence and the "Tir Asleen" moments that were too big for 1988 VFX. Val Kilmer’s Ad-libs: How Madmartigan’s best lines weren't in any script. YOUR VOTE COUNTS! 🫵 On The Average, the final score is in your hands. We’re putting Willow through our 9-category scorecard—from the groundbreaking morphing effects to the "annoyance factor" of the Brownies. Did you watch the Disney+ series? Does the 1988 film still hold the magic? 👉 SUBMIT YOUR REVIEW: [Insert Link to Bio/Review Form] 📚 WANT MORE ADVENTURE? Check out our horror and fantasy books on Amazon: 👉 https://a.co/d/bUtniBd 🎧 RECORD YOUR OWN QUEST WITH ZENCASTR Get 30% off your first 3 months of Zencastr Pro: 👉 https://zen.ai/theaveragereviews 📖 EXPAND YOUR LIBRARY WITH PANGOBOOKS Get $5.00 off your first purchase with code “TIMOTHYREADS”: 👉 https://pangobooks.com/TIMOTHYREADS FOLLOW OUR GUEST: 📸 Kelsi: @superkickingit (Kelsi’s Nostalgic Life) This is The Average, where the real review happens with your friends. #Willow1988 #SwordAndSorcery #GeorgeLucas #KelsisNostalgicLife #TheAveragePodcast #MovieReview #80sFantasy #WarwickDavis #ValKilmer #MovieScorecard #DeletedScenes #BookVsMovie
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Transcript
Magic's Allure and Fade
00:00:30
Speaker
I suppose my power enchanted you and you were helpless against it. Sort of. Then what? It went away. Went away?
00:00:41
Speaker
dwell in darkness without you and it went away?
Introduction to 'Willow' Series
00:01:16
Speaker
Welcome back to The Average! Two weeks ago we were underground dodging pickaxes in Valentine Bluffs, but tonight we are washing off the coal dust, grabbing our magic acorns, and heading to Tiris Lane.
00:01:28
Speaker
That's right. We are officially kicking off our sword and sorcery series. Just three more movie three movies in this that we're doing. And there is only one place we could possibly start the 1988 George Lucas and Ron Howard fantasy epic Willow.
00:01:45
Speaker
Yes, this film is a staple for anyone who grew up in the 80s, but it's more than just a nostalgic trip. It was a massive swing for George Lucas, who actually conceived the idea back in the 70s, but had to wait for the technology to catch up to his imagination.
00:01:58
Speaker
And catch up it did Willow is actually a pioneer in cinema history. It featured the very first instance of digital morphing on film when Finn Rizal transforms from animal to human. That was the birth of a tech that would eventually give us Terminator 2 and Jurassic Park.
00:02:18
Speaker
Beyond the tech, there's so much more at heart here. From Warwick Davis' breakout leading role to Val Kilmer at his absolute Mad Mardigan peak, a role he took so seriously that he reportedly stayed in character on set and even met his future wife, Joanne Whaley, during the filming.
Exploring 'Willow' Novelization
00:02:33
Speaker
But the movie is only part of the story. Tonight we're doing a deep dive into the official novelization to talk about what didn't make it to the screen. We're talking about the fish boy, some of the darker backstories, and some of the extended lore. So much lore, in fact, that there is a trilogy of novels that continues the story of Allura Dannon.
00:02:55
Speaker
right, and we couldn't embark on this quest alone, of course. We needed a true companion who knows this kind of thing. We are incredibly excited to welcome to the booth, for her first time on the average, though a legendary veteran of the Dread broadcast, the one and only Kelsey from Kelsey's Nostalgic Life.
00:03:12
Speaker
Hello! Thanks for having me. We are excited to have you, to finally have you breaking down a movie with us and we are incorporating the book aspects because we know you love doing that and do a lot of that. I also love the book stuff, so I'm excited about this.
00:03:29
Speaker
Yeah, and this is a great book movie combo to talk about because as you guys alluded to in your intro, there is so much extra in the book that really adds a lot of cool context that you wouldn't get if you just watched the movie alone. So I think it's ah a pretty cool experience.
00:03:48
Speaker
That's true. And we will get into all of that. And so welcome to the show. Thank you guys. I I'm so hyped and I even have my special wanted to show you guys if you're not watching on YouTube, I apologize because you won't be able to see it. But I got this cool um mini VHS of Willow.
00:04:07
Speaker
You open it up and there's a real f freaking VHS inside of it. That is so cool. ordered like a replica. It's like a blockbuster like shelf of movies and you could custom order movies. And of course I had to get Willow because it's a childhood favorite. So that's one of the ones I asked for in my little custom blockbuster shelf. I love that. That is awesome. Sorry, I had to show off my little experience. That is cool,
Audience Engagement and Nostalgia
00:04:35
Speaker
though. It's a cool thing to show off. Absolutely.
00:04:37
Speaker
So before we let Kelsey loose on the lore, a reminder to everyone watching, this is your show. The link in our bio is live for the official average scorecard. Submit those reviews, and we'll be reading them live as we go.
00:04:48
Speaker
Actually, i should drop the link into our YouTube chat while I'm thinking about that that would be helpful. Yeah, why yeah that would that would be nice. So I'm going to copy that and drop that in the chat right now. And then we can go ahead. And as I do that, we're going to dive into this and start talking about Willow. So we kick off with our let me see dropping.
Book vs. Movie: Depth and Differences
00:05:18
Speaker
there the scorecard is in the chat so i don't know anything about the books so so that's new territory for me yes and i thought that was kind of exciting um kelsey which copy of the book do you have i was trying to grab mine off camera just like this is what it looks like one of my pages fell out with the movie oh no can you believe it but anyway um otherwise it's actually in good condition better and than a lot of my other books And actually the same issue. Yeah. The crease right where the photos are, because you know this, I think this was a eighties release of the book.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah. It's 1988 and mine's a second printing. So it's still from 1988. So yeah, I think.
00:06:06
Speaker
Yep. Second printing June 88. Yeah, but you can definitely tell somebody split that spine checking out the photos and I was holding it together very carefully. But we will, this is pretty brief.
00:06:19
Speaker
ah We'll just kind of incorporate as we go category by category, we'll talk a little bit about what is extra in the book that might be missing. So I'm excited about that. it should be fun.
00:06:31
Speaker
ah Let's go ahead and talk about the story. Jonathan, I want to go last on this. Kelsey, if that's okay?
Character Arcs: Willow and Mad Mardigan
00:06:38
Speaker
huh And you or Jonathan want to go first to talk about story?
00:06:43
Speaker
Kelsey's the lore master here, so I'd say let her go first. Well, the funny thing is, so I'm not a big fantasy person, but when comes to freaking Willow, i don't know. It's something about it that works. And I don't know if it's just the story itself, because actually after reading the book, you get a lot more context about the story. I didn't even realize really...
00:07:04
Speaker
because it's been a while since I rewatched it. It's been like two years, three years. It really is a fast moving story. Although the runtime's like two hours, it doesn't feel like two hours. There are some scenes that it's literally like a minute and then they do a wipe and you're in the next scene. So it's kind of funny. I just didn't remember it being like that just from my memory, even though I've seen this movie countless times. ah But I do think the story is pretty strong. It's not perfect. If I had to settle on a score like we do here, i would say, i guess, about a four. i really think the story is better in the book, though, to be honest with you, because it flushes it out just a little bit more. It gives you a little bit more detail. It's not as rushed. I mean, really, i would round up the story plot to four. i would probably put it around 3.5.
00:07:52
Speaker
You are allowed to do that. Let me make sure I have my thing open so we can get math correct. ah Yeah, Jonathan, do you want to Flesh that out little.
00:08:06
Speaker
Absolutely. So the movie itself basically breaks down as you've got this evil sorceress empress looking for the child of destiny to destroy them so they can never be taken down from their powerful position and their crazy bullshit.
00:08:18
Speaker
She's got a daughter who works for some other crazy people. Bad stuff's going on. Then you've got the all these different races of people in this epic fantasy world. You've got the Nelwyn. You know, you come across David Warwick as a
00:08:35
Speaker
oh Willow, of course. Willow! Yes. You remember when the goat, when she becomes the goat? She goes, Willow! Actually, it's when she's turning into a turtle, but anyway, sorry. That's an inside joke. I always say that on my live streams, just out of nowhere. Willow! Go ahead, Jonathan. it's Sorry.
00:08:55
Speaker
But yeah, so you've got the child that is born. Child escapes through the grace of a nursemaid. Baby gets, you know, thrown down the river. thrown down the river, but... push down a river since, you know, these crazy looking beast dogs were after him.
00:09:08
Speaker
Willow finds a baby in the river. His kids find it, I should say. And then things just get crazy from there, trying to figure out what to do with this baby and then finding out that she's this important person who's supposed to save everybody.
00:09:20
Speaker
so they need to get her safely to Tirislene. They got to find this good witch. still her out find a daikini they got mad mordigan played by fucking val kilmer who was legendarily awesome i think in this role and just you know you've got this your whole fantasy story of good and evil and magic and uh people trying to find the best in themselves you know it's an amazing story and it's not like we haven't seen that before in other sci-fi fantasy films but i just like this one so much george the way of george locust wrote this story
00:09:53
Speaker
was fantastic. And when you pair that with Ron Howard, it's such a powerhouse, you know, and they're like one of those ultimate teams, I think, for for the 80s when it comes to fantasy film. Yeah, I think there was some, I think even more than the story, I know we're gonna go and talk about character later and acting later, but I think the characters are kind of special even more than just like the overall story itself. And I think the acting brings it to another level where there's like a lot of sincerity to everything or it feels like
Comparing 'Willow' and 'Star Wars'
00:10:21
Speaker
it. That's what I think separates it from other fantasy movies is like the sincerity you feel while watching the story. yeah He's so great as Mad Mardigan. i i want to know travis travis was sad sardigan correct or was that a typo is that intentionally funny but all right guys i hate to be this person but uh i have to tim pick some elements of the story i do i have to because it does weigh into ultimately my overall enjoyment of the film
00:10:56
Speaker
I love this movie. I'll get that out of the way early. I love this movie. But the story not without its flaws. Like Kelsey said, it's not perfect. ah First of all, it it's Star Wars.
00:11:12
Speaker
Willow is Luke Skywalker, Mad Mardigan is Han Solo, General Kale is Darth Vader, Bavmorda is the Emperor, and even Sorsha is Princess Leia, literally the daughter of the villain.
00:11:27
Speaker
It's just, it's all there. It's just like, hey, let's take the similar story. um Let's put a baby in it that's super important. Let's put the baby in it and put it in a fantasy world.
00:11:39
Speaker
And so that like watching it, I'm like, Marigan is Han Solo. And that's where I started to put it. He's the lovable rogue and he's great. I love him. He's the my favorite part of the film.
00:11:51
Speaker
But watching that and I'm going, yeah, Mad Marigan's Han Solo. And then you start to connect all the other little dots of what's going on. But I have some questions on the story side that I need answered. So maybe you guys can answer these for me.
00:12:10
Speaker
Um, why not just kill the baby the second they see it? Why does Bavmorta need to do some special ceremony to kill the baby?
00:12:24
Speaker
That's never explained. The spirit of the child is part of like what is bad for her. So she wants to banish that spirit through the ritual sacrifice. So I think I need explain that just dying in that world doesn't get rid of your spirit.
00:12:40
Speaker
Correct. but At least that's what's alluded to in the movie. I think the book does spell, or the novelization, it does spell it out a little more clear that you have to diminish. I think the way they phrase it is all that you were, it's like an un, I think they called it an unbecoming. It's like disappearing all that you ever were and ever will be. So it's like, if you,
00:13:06
Speaker
it's only like a form of reincarnation. Like it never, none of your lives happened. That's how I kind of thought of it. Okay. Like, that That helps. I read the book, but i i my retention of it, I was on vacation, so my retention of it was wasn't super high, but I did enjoy the book. um There were some other things, so that makes a little bit more sense. That's just something I wish would have been a little bit clearer explained, because the other question I have is why continually capture and let Mad Mardigan and Willow go and not just kill him and run away with the baby?
00:13:44
Speaker
I think there was one line where can't remember if it was in the book or the movie though now. I swear, i think Sorsha says, my mother might need them for the ceremony or need them for something. I don't know. she There's a throw like a throwaway line. I think it's in the book, but um that's the excuse. But is it kind of weak? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that That kind of crushes it for me. That's just like, I'm watching it in that time after
Magic Limitations in 'Willow'
00:14:11
Speaker
the island when they tie them to the wagons. I'm like, why are they bothering with this?
00:14:16
Speaker
Because she's in love with Mad Mardigan now. wow is sweetness and Yeah, but General Kale's there and he's not. But that that's one area that I'm like, okay, huh? Another question I have is why can't Finn Rizal perform magic in the animal form?
00:14:38
Speaker
Why must she be in human form? Because mentally she seems to be all there, even as an animal. So if magic is a distinctly human trait in this world, or a daikini trait in this world, then Willow should not be able to perform magic.
00:14:58
Speaker
Maybe it's a humanoid structure kind of thing because he's they've got the village sorcerer. You gotta have fingers. Where Willa's from, you know, yeah yeah all that, you know. Well, I mean, in the movie, his hand's always hurting when he's using the wand correctly. So maybe you do need hands. I don't know. that's These are just like little things that kind of take me out a little bit. Like I said, I still love this movie. I think it's a fun adventure film. Yeah, I have some nitpicky things too. I kind of am on the same page as you, but not as nitpicky, but I'm like parallel with you. Like there are some things you could, you could kind of, you know, say, oh, that's kind of stupid. But I feel like the performances
00:15:39
Speaker
make that go away for me in terms of overall enjoyment. But when we're just talking about this one factor, the story, yeah, there's some weak parts for sure. Travis says you need thumbs for magic.
00:15:51
Speaker
I think that's kind of what they're going at. Yeah. But, a man, okay, I wrote a list. I'll save some of them for the script. There are, i guess...
00:16:04
Speaker
There are far more leaps made in this film than there was in, say, Star Wars. Like in Star Wars, they showed up at the cantina for a reason. They were looking for something that's the
Critique of Prophecy and Plot
00:16:19
Speaker
hive of scum and villainy. You know, that's why we're going there. In this one, Willow just stumbles across a bar in the woods and oh, Mad Mardigan is also there again. and it's just a lot of happenstance that happens in this story.
00:16:35
Speaker
Like I said, I still enjoy it. It's just like I want reasons for things. And that's something I actually feel like modern movies miss a lot. Like I just watched Jurassic World Rebirth and I'm like, rebirth. Yeah, I just watched that and I'm like, why is that happening? Like there's no set up and then follow through. It's like, boom, this is happening.
00:16:59
Speaker
Fate by way of prophecy. Hey. I still, okay, and my over prophecy, you brought a prophecy that this will be my final one for the story. um Why does this whole thing, i feel like this movie would be better if the baby escaped, lived in the woods, grew up with the Elwyns, was a teenager when Baphmorta finally found it.
00:17:29
Speaker
instead of finding it when it's a baby, because the baby is just constantly there. It's a point for Willow to yell about at, Matt Mardigan, why are you driving so fast? Like, that's the baby's whole existence in this film. And there are a lot of times that I'm like, it's fantasy, so I i let it go. I'm like, okay, the brownies capturing the baby and it not falling out of the wrap, okay.
00:17:57
Speaker
this is an area actually where the book does a great job of explaining that nature itself in the realm is kind of taking care of this baby so when they put it in the river at the beginning the book goes into explanation about how the otters and stuff would dislodge it if it got stuck and help push it down river and they would watch over it and Like they basically throughout the book are paralleled by animals keeping an eye.
00:18:27
Speaker
I think there was a bear at one point that kind of follows along. And either even like mother animals would give the baby their milk. They would it would literally approach the group and be like, drink me. Yeah. Not like that, but you know. yeah So yeah, no, that's, it is kind of weird, but Hey, ah it is one of those, like, I think that element was pretty cool. And the movie totally skips over that, but it helps explain how this baby makes it to these situations that there is some kind of magical guidance and the movie kind of misses that.
00:19:00
Speaker
And I almost wish it was there. I do think the story, the sequel trilogy of books takes place later when she is a teenager. And I kind of just think ultimately, Baph Morda is hunting this down because the baby is supposed to bring Baph Morda's downfall. And so she hunts it down, gets it, and the baby brings about her downfall. Like, it still happens. There was no... But the baby didn't do anything.
00:19:32
Speaker
The baby just arrived. So the prophecy then... Allura Dannon isn't special. It's Willow and Mad Mardigan and that cast that's special. The baby is just why they all end up there together. Well, it's like self-fulfilling prophecy. Like everything, it's like a loop almost. Like she might not be special in the... She didn't do anything specifically to bring down Bev Morda, but the people surrounding her and the circumstances surrounding her helped bring about the downfall. And so it's just like kind of like a self-fulfilling thing.
Magic's Physical Toll
00:20:08
Speaker
don't know. I don't know how else to explain it, but your criticisms are definitely valid. will say, even like the magic system, like in the book,
00:20:17
Speaker
So yes, the book goes into more, but I even think the book is lacking because it says it's like a very basic black and white explanation of why Bev Morda kind of went evil. she I mean, she wanted more power. That's kind of like a basic explanation for anyone turning evil. And then like, how does the magic work? And they were like, oh, well, it was a very simple explanation. So even the book didn't really give me what I wanted. in terms of the explanation of the magic of the universe. It's not like a typical like highbrow fantasy world. It does explain, doesn't it explain early in the book that magic does take a toll on its user? like
00:20:59
Speaker
Like you mentioned Willow's hands hurting. So performing magic and if it doesn't, like if you don't get it right, it hurts the the person who tried to perform it. don't remember that in the book. I do remember them talking about need to practice, like, well, the two main witches, I guess you could call them, Raziel, or whatever, however you pronounce it, and Bev Morda, the big difference between them in the book is that Bev Morda kept going after power, and she was an apprentice to different sorcerers, whereas Raziel, however you say her name, she...
00:21:37
Speaker
fell in love and was like, i don't care about magic anymore. I don't care about doing anything. I just want to be married and all this stuff. So like that was the big explanation about the good, the evil and how they learned to be. That's what I remember is basically very simple explanations for for things. I also loved i saw someone else explain it later.
00:22:02
Speaker
um the finn razzell bavmorda dynamic is much better explained in the book but somebody explained it as uh basically i think two characters from mean girls fighting over the same same guy yes That's exactly it. Yes, that's it. And that's why they're like have this ancient grudge against each other. But she stole my man.
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah. I'm going to turn you into a muskrat. And ban you to an island to make you an animal. Yes. And then that lady. What is like the fairy? What is her name?
00:22:37
Speaker
Charlie, Charlie, Andrea, Charlie Andrea. Yeah. Yes. I think if I'm remembering it correctly, she came to uh finn razzell in the book and it was like we have to stop stop bav morta and at that time finn razzell was still friends with bad more bad mortar and she's kind of like hey just don't worry about it she's fine whatever and they move on and then later we find out that clearly chairlandria was right so i think i think so When, remember the mean girl situation, fighting over the same guy. So we didn't really fully fully explain for those who haven't read the book. But so in the book, we get the backstory of both of them. Finn Rizal was in love with the king of...
00:23:23
Speaker
um the good castle, the- Tears Lane. Tears Lane, yes. She was in love with the, I guess, the prince at the time. He wasn't king yet. So she was in love with him. She was like, oh yeah, they have this romance. Bavmorda starts to gain power and she's like, I want to swoop in and steal her man and also become like,
00:23:45
Speaker
Queen in waiting basically. And so let me just destroy your girl's life. So she did that, but the part that was kind of ah the fairy Shalindria was involved in. So once this happens,
00:23:59
Speaker
ah Finn Rizal is devastated. She's so upset. She goes like crying to Shalindria saying like, what are we gonna do? We need to like stop this. And I think Shalindria is like, yo, yo, we can't like, you're too upset right now. You got to come back at a different time. Like you're coming from this, from emotion. You got to get back to your training.
00:24:21
Speaker
you got a lot to do. It's not all about like your lost love. So that was part of it too. It was like, apparently, Fidrazel couldn't do anything until she settled down and like got over the love aspect of everything.
00:24:36
Speaker
So that whole story is much better at understanding the end of the movie. There's also a scene in the end of the movie that, oh, and remind me to come back to this, Sorsha is much better explained in the book.
00:24:53
Speaker
Yes. do Much better at explaining Saoirse's twist on her mother. much better because it makes hardly any sense in the movie. It's so quick. It's unbelievable in in the movie. But in the book, she actually sees what's supposed to be her father frozen. and she's like, and he speaks to her, like whispers to her through the ice, like, I love you or something. i can't remember. But basically she's like, oh shit, my mom's a piece of shit. I mean, not in those words, but essentially that's what she's realizing in the book. In the movie, we get none of that. She's just like, oh
00:25:28
Speaker
Mad Marnican. Mad Marnican. Nice chest. Let's go. Mad Marnican's got the sauce. So that is also a deleted scene. There is, you can find it, but it's one that should have been kept in the movie because when they go to the castle and there's the people frozen in ice uh yes yeah yeah frozen in ice like han solo another reference um when they find the people frozen in the ice the one of them is sorsha's dad and so there is if you have the dvd copy of it it's probably one of the deleted scenes it is we're seeing but that also makes sense when you get to where sorsha meets her mother and she says you saw your father
00:26:15
Speaker
That makes no sense without that scene. Well, not only that, at the very end when they're saying goodbye, there's there's ah a king guy, a random dude with Sorcha and everybody, and it's never explained who he is.
00:26:30
Speaker
That's her dad. It's the dad, yes. there's like There are little things. The movie, okay, so i'll I'll say it now. If you enjoy this this movie, I do think this novelization is worth the read. There is quite a bit of backstory that is fun. Some of it I don't necessarily care for. Like we do get, like, I don't think it's super essential, but it does help understand some of the characters a little bit better. I'm trying to think of the soldier, the Nelwyn soldier.
00:27:06
Speaker
He's got- Oh yes, oh yes, yes. um um Oz... He's got a tricky one. Admar, yeah. I know exactly who you're talking about. He's got a whole side story yeah about how he tried to find Tirislene.
Mad Mardigan's Backstory
00:27:20
Speaker
Yes, Vaknar. Vankar. He tried to find Tirislene and went on this whole epic journey and you get his whole backstory where he barely has any freaking lines in the- Yes, Willow!
00:27:34
Speaker
Cameron knows about Willow that i always go, Willow! Anyway, um he's he's got a whole backstory in it in the book that's not even hinted at in in the in the movie.
00:27:45
Speaker
that and i love i really liked mad martigan's backstory so there's another connection here in this story that makes helps the movie make more sense there's like an implied history between the brownies and mad martigan in the movie yes because there's so much missing now that i don't know about oh but it doesn't it shouldn't affect the enjoyment of the film i don't think i think for me, even the things I had questions about, I still read the book and I still have questions about them. But but the some of that backstory, um,
00:28:19
Speaker
It's implied throughout because Mad Mardigan talks about how much he dislikes the Brownies and they seem to recognize him. In the book, one of the Brownies tells Willow all about who Mad Mardigan is, gives Willow his backstory. And so we find out like from the age of 13, Mad Mardigan was like learning to be a soldier and be proficient. And he's not just in the movie, he's not just saying, I'm the best swordsman ever.
00:28:49
Speaker
We find out in the book that he is. Like he genuinely is. It's not self-proviating. Like trained with like rare people who who are like the last master swordsman of their clan and stuff. He like went to great ends to hang out with people in his kingdom that were like expert hunters. expert soldiers and he was technically semi like royalty i can't remember yes described his he was son he was the son of royal nobility i think yes yep
00:29:27
Speaker
a bad but I love the different changes of the name. travis yes it travis but For those of listening on the podcast or Travis comments, Cal Vilmer lived inside of a cage for 13 months in preparation for this role as bad Bart again. I didn't even read it as Cal Vilmer at first. um Neither did I. we'll get until I can get into more elements of this later. like I gotta get the book now. like I think it would add a lot for you, Jonathan, since you like the movie. I think you'd be like, oh, this is so cool. I'll send a copy to you. That's how I felt when I read it. I really enjoyed it. It added a lot of extra context. um
00:30:06
Speaker
And I'm not trying to be too nitpicky. I mean, I know me and Tim are kind of like, yeah, this is dumb. But no, no I love it. Dumb in a good way. even considered it as like the the Star Wars aspect. That never even occurred to me. That didn't occur to me either. That was kind of mind-blowing when you made that comparison. And then in the comments, you're like, yeah, ha ha, Frozen like Han Solo. I was like, oh shit, I'm going to never be able to think of this movie again without comparing it to Star Wars. Sorry, i also, i also, it should be noted, like,
00:30:38
Speaker
i go hardest on things that i love the most you know this is this in movie's not perfect by any stretch and so i'm gonna go hard on it when i can but that really doesn't affect my enjoyment and we'll get to the enjoyment factor later i said it does earlier and and you'll see why like there's a reason why it's not a perfect 10 for me yeah yeah that that's all i'm saying ah So let's go ahead. Let's score the story. We got lots more to get into. Let's score the story. So Kelsey, you said you gave it. Originally, I gave it a four, but I'm going to lower it to 3.5. Okay. I'm adjusting it now. So you're a 3.5. Jonathan. I'm a four.
00:31:20
Speaker
You're a four. I am a three. We have, let's see, this person did not... They did not leave ah at, so I'm not sure who this is. It looks like Alfred, possibly.
00:31:35
Speaker
ah They gave it a three. Rally Reviews gave it a two. Oh! Uh-huh. Oh, why? the tiny demon uh the tiny demon gave it a four so we're all no perfect fives no ones we're all right there in the middle okay so let's go into the character arc let's go jonathan kelsey whoever wants to take it over so many arcs tell us tell us Okay, so you've got Willow, you know, he's this this little trickster who wants to be a magician. He wants or wants to be a source things he's destined for greatness, but seems to keep failing time and time again in this journey. He he learns to not focus so much on being great, but just doing what's right.
00:32:21
Speaker
and being a protector and persevering through all of the challenges and eventually leading up to him becoming a fledgling sorcerer. you know So there's that justification and everything he's felt worked so hard for, but seemed be denied so long.
00:32:36
Speaker
And then just the impact that he's had on saving the kingdom, being a hero and looking after this child make sure she lives is like of the top compelling arcs of the film. And at the same time, though, then you've got Mad Mardigan, who just seemed like at the beginning, just some scummy churl in a fucking crow cage who's just destined to die out, dehydrate, starve, whatever, who knows?
00:32:57
Speaker
And that just seems like such a shady butthole. But then, you know, as things go on and he you know gets to know more about Willow and spends more time making connections with Lord Dannon.
00:33:08
Speaker
and seeing how he that just brings out the best of him and then how the circumstances finding love with Sorsha, even though through weird magics and crazy stuff and happenstance. His teeth get better too. Yeah, I know. He's That's like the biggest arc in the movie, Jonathan, and you're forgetting it. Come on. His hygiene improved. His dental hygiene got so much better. So cheers to him for that.
00:33:34
Speaker
But him becoming like this super... Super awesome, big time hero and proving that he is, in fact, the greatest swordsman in the land and how badass he is. And just, you know, becoming just becoming going from the bottom to being at the top of awesomeness is incredible for him.
00:33:51
Speaker
You know, That's that's one thing that you just can't ignore. And then, of course, Vin Rizal, you know, getting out of her banishment, getting back to her human form, being able to do good for the kingdom. You know that there's there's that. and But that there's so many more. I don't want to hog all of it. I'm sure there there's just so many different like little angles you can go with it here, but I'll let you go on from there, Kelsey.
00:34:12
Speaker
My favorite arc is Willow's because I just think how much he loves this child is so apparent in the performance, especially. i mean, it's there in the book on the written page, too, but there's something about Warwick Davis's performance that really brings it across. like The love he has for his family and for the child, I feel like is one of the best parts of the movie. So I just love his arc about how he's scared, but he continues to persevere. He doubts himself. I mean, that's one of the main points is ah the head sorcerer of the new ones, the new ones, say says, you need to trust yourself. Like, you know, you're doubting yourself all the time. You could be a great sorcerer, but you're just second guessing yourself all the time. I love how Willow kind of comes into his own throughout the movie and even stands up to this badass, scary-ass witch at the end, even when he thinks he can't like go in Finn Razzell is like, you don't have to come up. And it's even said in the book, very, like, I think they described that he's so scared that he wants to go to help save the baby, but he physically cannot move because he is so scared going up the staircase. That's when Finn Razzell's like, you can stay here, it's okay. But he ends up going in there anyway and facing her head on. I just think that's such a great arc. So that's my favorite. Of course, I think Mad Mardigan's arc's great too, but I think it's actually better in the book than in the movie because again, we know his backstory. And so, spoiler, ah gave I gave it a five for character arcs and now I'm like, do I have to lower this too?
00:35:48
Speaker
No, you don't. You don't. Go with your gut. I like it. My gut said five, so. Yeah. All right. So here I come in Tim picking again. Oh, no. Oh, no. do it First, do it. but First, um I found that passage that I was talking about with magic. It's on page 36.
00:36:05
Speaker
it's when so there's far more magic in the book than there is in the movie we see willow practice his magic on multiple occasions throughout the book and i like that and one of the first times he practices it is when they find the baby he tries to use magic to disassemble the little raft Oh yeah, yeah. He tries to use magic and it says, Damn.
00:36:47
Speaker
So that explains why sometimes he's like yeah grabbing his hands after trying to imagine why he's acting like the wand burnt him. It's the way magic works. So that's I think that is super fascinating in the book. Like you mentioned, i think the book does an excellent job of showing Willow's love for his family. You know far more about his family. It's not essential to the story.
00:37:13
Speaker
But it sympathizes Willow. you You feel more for him because you understand that he really is his family man, you know? And I think a little bit of that is missing in the movie. There's also hints that his daughter is magically inclined in the book. That she has like powers or is psychic. I love that that's hinted at in the book. Love.
00:37:41
Speaker
Yes. So in in the book, she's drawing pictures of things she's never seen. And one of those turns out to be like the devil dog that attacks later. So even though she's never seen that before. So there's little things like that that I think
Character Bonding and Development
00:37:55
Speaker
are fascinating. But if I'm jumping on the character arc, my biggest problem with these, and I totally agree with what she said, Willow, like really learning to stand up for himself and have some confidence is amazing.
00:38:10
Speaker
I don't like that the High Alwyn tells him ah to believe in himself some more and believe what he's thinking. i wrote down the exact quote.
00:38:23
Speaker
What does he say? Don't doubt yourself or? The High Alwyn tells him he has potential to great sorcerer. He just needs to listen to himself.
00:38:34
Speaker
But I can't think of a specific moment where he chose to listen to himself and it resulted in him becoming a better sorcerer.
00:38:46
Speaker
In the end, he defeats Baphmorta with the same pig illusion that he uses at the beginning. That was too awesome. I do think it's cool. It's impossible! I do think it's cool, but I think it undercuts what they're trying to do.
00:39:02
Speaker
i I think they're trying is is he trying to become this high sorcerer and great sorcerer or in the end of the movie, is he like, you know what? I'm, I'm confident just being Willow. Huh? Yeah.
00:39:13
Speaker
And so that is a question that leaves me with because I, either way, i think it's, um, I think it's great to have him be confident in who he is, that he doesn't need to be the best sorcerer in the land to be important.
00:39:30
Speaker
I think that's just as good a message as him learning and growing. But I do. There's that gray area of like, okay, well, did he become a sorcerer because he just used an illusion and it worked like, which one is And he's kind of cheap, but still awesome. Yeah, and he's lying about like, oh, i'm even more powerful than you, and he throws the acorn. love I love it. i love it ah The book also explains why he only has two acorns and not the three that was originally given to him, and we'll get to that.
00:40:02
Speaker
um The other thing that, again, it's helped in here, Mad Mardigan's transition to helping Willow is pretty sudden in the book.
00:40:16
Speaker
i want I want more of him and Willow bonding. I want to see them like, I feel like they don't really break out of their Nelwyn and Daikini cliches.
00:40:33
Speaker
And they can't get past that with each other. And then all of a sudden they are past that with each other. And I want to see a moment, like there's a beautiful moment when they're sitting by the campfire one night.
00:40:44
Speaker
And ah it's wasted with Willow being like, I don't need you. And then like the very next scene, he's like, I need you. It's dangerous out here. yeah I wish that moment was more of like,
00:40:56
Speaker
I have a family at home, you know, I have to protect this world for my kids and Mad Mardigan talk like remembering his family and starting to see each other more as individuals and less as you're a peck and you're a daikini. Like I, I want that growth in there.
00:41:15
Speaker
And then I feel better about Mad Mardigan suddenly being all about going on this journey with willow because as it stands in the movie it feels like he's doing it for sorsha because he decides he's with willow when it's sorsha and his his kind of buddy that the eric yeah yeah so it's kind of in that moment that he's like well i'm with i'm with i'm with the peck you know that's what he's
00:41:50
Speaker
I just wish there was a little bit more development shown in the movie. I think in the movie, i think you can kind of see that he's starting to love the child a little bit because they there's these really cute moments where he's like looking very lovingly at the child. I think she wins him over even before Sorsha gets involved. At least that's my take on it i didn't I wasn't bothered by that as much as you because I thought they had like a funny, like arguing,
00:42:20
Speaker
dynamic. And so I just thought that after a while, it was more of the, the baby won him over. And so he's going to help Willow with the baby and it kind of changed him. I don't know. That's how I looked at it That makes, that makes sense. And I think that's the best version of what happens in the film. I think, I think that works at best. And I know, like I said, I'm being critical. I gave it a four.
00:42:44
Speaker
I gave it a four. I think the arcs are good. I'm just saying like, Between this being my final enjoyment factor, what I gave it and being a perfect score, these are the things that kind of stand in the way for me. Yeah. is Like if I were to go, I mean, i read a lot of Brandon Sanderson, so great fantasy stuff.
00:43:03
Speaker
Lord of the Rings, I've read like eight times, all of them. Like, they're my favorite books. They're just so beautifully written. um Yeah, wordy. Some people can't can't get into that. But like, everything has a reason and a moment and that development, even in some of the modern fantasy like Sanderson. And that is just like those little bits of connective tissue for me that I want to help bind this story and make it that much stronger instead of kind of feeling like we go from one set piece to the next.
00:43:36
Speaker
And the movie's really like that with the wipes to like, oh, here we're going to this next thing. Here we go. Classic Lucasfilm side swipes. But I will say I now that makes sense why certain things bother you, because it's funny, I'm the opposite way. So I am not a fantasy reader. So I was scared to read this novelization because I was like, I love the movie. Is it just nostalgia? Will it like lose me when it gets into like the fantasy elements? But this is like fantasy light. Now, see, that's yeah for you. That is a con for me. That is a pro because I don't know if I would like.
00:44:09
Speaker
heavy fantasy like hardcore fantasy but to me this just i guess having the knowledge of the movie in my head it was like i was seeing it while i was reading it so it kind of was like they built off of each other whereas you were looking at it oh where's this development here we're almost like i wish this could be a standalone thing like a fantasy novel that could stay on its own even if it wasn't a movie. To me, I was never looking at this like that and I never looked at the movie like that. To me, Willow stands as a favorite for me because it works despite it being fantasy, not because of it being in fantasy, if that makes sense, because I'm not a big fantasy person. Interesting. Yeah. That's interesting. All right So I gave mine. i was a four. Jonathan, what were you?
00:44:52
Speaker
One last thing before we move on character, before I score. One other thing that was super awesome as far as any kind of arc goes verbal cuts, upper of fucking comeuppance. Always bagging on Willow from the beginning of film, like, you owe me some shit, I'm gonna take your fucking land, I'm the one who drives, I do what to say you're a turd, whatever, you're a run, and at the end, Willow coming back, be like, bust out some magic apple, bitch, boom, bird, shit on your face and in your mouth. Take that verbal cut. And that doesn't happen in the book. know What? It's not the book? But I will say, i think he was- Good addition anyway.
00:45:23
Speaker
he was nastier in the beginning of the book. I feel like he was a little almost more comedic in the film than he was in the book. Yeah, put his place. Yeah. And sources arc like we did. We kind of touched on it about finding her father. I think that's ah That's better in the book, but it is another good arc of the film. So Jonathan, go ahead, score. Five.
00:45:44
Speaker
And then Kelsey, you gave yours earlier. You said five. You can stick with it. You don't have to. I'm sticking with it. Stick with it. Okay. i was a I was a four.
Music and Sound Design by James Horner
00:45:53
Speaker
We have Alfred gave it a three.
00:45:56
Speaker
Rally Reviews gave it a three. And the Tiny Demon also gave it a, well, gave it a four, not a three. So not also. uh so all real close real tight on that one and I do have Travis's now Travis gave the character four oh cool and he gave the story a three so music and sound design this one has we don't usually spend as much time on it but I think it enhances the movie experience so And then, oh yes, let's do this.
00:46:27
Speaker
I don't know if Derpfish submitted the score through the link or not, if I'm already reading those, but in the chat Derpfish gave it a five as well. Perfect. Okay. Music and sound design category. So who wants to take that away?
00:46:42
Speaker
This is good music. It's good symphonic orchestra stuff as the soundtrack, and it's got a pretty recognizable theme to it. So, I mean, I think that's big, and that's always one of the big things when comes to music, is something going memorable. You hear it, and you're like, oh, I know what the hell that is, dude. You know, and the high notes from the horns and everything in the theme for the song, just it really catches you. It's hard to ignore.
00:47:07
Speaker
ah love it. there is something about eighties movies and their soundtracks that is just infinitely better than most of what's being put out today. Perfection. on yeah Like I, I mean, Hans Zimmer's pirates of the Caribbean score for the s sequel to movies is one of the best scores put to like Hans Zimmer kills it. But outside of that in modern day, like,
00:47:37
Speaker
I don't care for like the droning music that happens in modern day, like in Dune, it's not, not really hitting it for me, but we go back to the eighties, especially Lucas films, Spielberg films, John Williams scores. yeah Fantastic.
00:47:53
Speaker
Fantastic. Oh yeah. Lord of the Rings score. How could I forget that? um This movie has a lot of those, like Jonathan mentioned the horns and it feels triumphant and cinematic and It enhances the film so many times. And it does have that recogniz and ah recognizable theme for Willow. I totally agree. It was composed by James Horner.
00:48:17
Speaker
So I don't know what else that guy did. I should probably look that up. But Kelsey. I love, love, love the score. ah It's one of my favorite parts of the movie and it's funny because it's something I didn't even think about when I was getting excited to rewatch it again. so you guys tagged me in you know the promotion of this episode. And you used the score in in the story. So I go to share it. I hear it. I was like, oh, shit. Like, I forgot. Like, this is a banger, man. So as soon as I heard that, I started to get excited. And then all of a sudden, when I was reading, like, the last 30 pages of the book, I said, I'm going to just see if this exists. I wasn't expecting to have music, but I i Googled Willow Ambience video. Yeah. And it came up, I shared it with Tim, it came up and it had like a lot of the score in there. And I was like, oh, hell yeah, I can't wait to rewatch this movie. So, ah
00:49:13
Speaker
It had to be a five for me, by the way. The the score is perfection. Come on. one I love it. I can't nitpick one thing about it. I love it. It's like the perfect adventure score. like It screams adventure just in the style and tone of it.
00:49:28
Speaker
so It is leaps and bounds above any other sword and sorcery film from the eighty s it It has much more in line with movies like The Goonies and Indiana Jones than it does anything else.
00:49:44
Speaker
And James Horner, he's he's not really a small-time name when it comes to composing. So at the time, he composed shortly after Willow.
00:49:58
Speaker
I'm trying to look. He composed Cocoon. He composed Aliens. He he composed to an American, composed to, what is that? He composed An American Tale.
00:50:12
Speaker
will That was all before Willow. After Willow, he did The Land Before Time, Field of Dreams, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, whoa Glory, ah The Rocketeer, Patriot Games,
00:50:28
Speaker
he's pretty prolific it looks like i mean 1993 he did house of cards jack the bear swing kids far off place once upon a forest searching for bobby fisher man without a face yeah okay sorry about the pelican brief we're back a dinosaur's tail like that was 1993. so he's done a ton legends of the fall Clear and Present Danger, Braveheart, Jumanji.
00:50:55
Speaker
Like there's a reason the score is good. Oh, Jumanji. Yeah, no wonder. No wonder the score's banging. I didn't realize he did that much. He did Titanic. um ah He did Titanic. He did, um man, why am I thinking? Avatar. I don't care for Avatar. Me either. but he's he's got some chops. So there's a reason why this music really works.
00:51:21
Speaker
and the sound design was actually Ben Burtt who worked on Star Wars so it's a Lucasfilm project you're going to have a lot of overlap on who works on it but the death dogs and magic spells were used creating a mix of animal growls and synthesizers to create some unique sounds and the death dogs look pretty cool I do believe Kelsey in the book aren't they described as bald
00:51:52
Speaker
I swear to you, I paid attention while reading the book very closely. You're like, I skimmed and you're bringing up details that I don't remember. I'm like, I read this like this week, what is going on? I do not remember them being described as bald, but they were, they were really, really scary sounding in the book, but they look scary too. I think they did a great job with the design in the movie. So I think the death dogs translated well in both the book and the movie i can't say that about every creature though no i i i agree all right so we don't have to spend a whole lot of time left on this category let's go ahead and drop your scores on a kelsey five i was of jonathan
Special Effects and Practical Techniques
00:52:42
Speaker
did i freeze or did jonathan did you hear me tim no can you hear me tim he said four Oh, um it's doing that thing again where I can't hear. so Damn technology. I am a four as well. The Tiny Demon is a four. Rally Reviews is a one.
00:53:01
Speaker
and alfred is a two and travis is a three unless we've updated that in the chat but yeah i just really like the score i guess whatever i know it it is it is very a very good score especially for this type of movie so i'm with you there all right then we move on to the editing and special effects this is a fun one kelsey you want to tell us what creature you didn't think looked very good yeah I don't even remember his name. The double headed dude. Also wait, ah that freaking table that comes to life that Willow pushes out the window. Oh my God, it looks so bad. That looks, um that's like a steampunk thing. I'm watching that and I'm like, this looks like mechanical steampunk element. This is unique.
00:53:53
Speaker
But yeah, the two headed, I forgot what the beast is called, but um it's funny. I think in the book, it was already laying in wait in the moat, whereas in the movie, it makes it seem like Willow accidentally conjured this creature. So it's kind of a huge difference between the two. um where the creature came from, but I do not think the creature looks very good in the movie. I know that the effects were great for the time, but like looking back now, it's so hard not to feel that it's super dated. Cause you don't see a lot of, i mean, you do, but
00:54:27
Speaker
You don't feel when you're watching it. Nothing else in the movie sticks out as dated, i feel, except for that. I don't know. Even the brownies look fantastic through most of the film. They did an excellent job getting the brownies in the scenes.
00:54:40
Speaker
I will say I wished modern movies would use some of this puppetry and the puppetry and the stop motion effects that were used for the dragon.
00:54:50
Speaker
i wish we used that with the modern ways of blending scenes together because that creature looks real and looks tangible it doesn't look cgi you can just tell that it looks like it was cut out and put in the scene yeah so if we could just if modern directors could find a way use those same tricks and apply modern day technology to improve them beautiful execution on those, but I actually thought the special effects held up really well.
00:55:24
Speaker
Jonathan, you want to see if I can hear you again? Can you hear me now? You can go ahead and talk. I can see your mouth move. I don't know what is going on. Well, I'm all about the special effects. I really appreciate, even though it's early green screen work, I think it turned out really well in the way that they matched the light tones for the scenes versus the overlays on that were really good.
00:55:47
Speaker
you know, especially with all the small parts where you see the brownies so tiny and minuscule against everything else and how it all matched up really well. Even when they were syncing it up to when Willow and Migosh were tied down to the ground with their twine and shit.
00:56:01
Speaker
You know, even the way they had that overlaid still worked out really, really well. So I can't be mad at that. The weird two-headed monster, yeah, you could tell a little more blatantly, especially when that scene where you've got the monster-headed monster and then Mad Mardigans on top of it.
00:56:15
Speaker
That is where it kind of shows out a little bit, but I can't really be mad about it. and I thought it was cool how they transformed troll into a weird fleshy blob, and then it grows up out of the moat into this giant monster.
00:56:29
Speaker
thought it was cool creature transition, even though we only see it in stages and not in like a real time transformation for the most part. um And then just the way we talked about early on and about the animal transformations from one animal to the next and then from animal to human form.
00:56:44
Speaker
that That was just fantastic. That was such a good thing for its time. it That was my favorite effect. I mean, her going from like, I think it was a white tiger and to you know, to human, I thought that was really well done. So I agree with you there about that. I'm not trying to be too nitpicky because for the time it's it's amazing, but looking, I wish I watched it on VHS. I guess that's the thing is because looking on it on my modern TV, I was just streaming it on Disney Plus. I'm like, man, I miss it on my VHS. so like On my tube TV.
00:57:15
Speaker
Yeah, even I've got I picked up the 4K with Jonathan. Did you start talking? Yeah, was trying to say i just wanted to say that the also that one scene where you see the whole cadre of of Nelwyn's on that hype scene from watching from the valley floor to seeing them across that log across the way, how they made that look pretty good. Even though you you still tell a little bit that it was the green screen, but I still thought that looked really good the they did that.
00:57:45
Speaker
that's him he's done now tim the i'm getting caught up yeah i'm getting caught up on the youtube side because i can hear you through youtube but i can't hear you through this for some reason but youtube has a slight lag um i think my biggest problem is not the effects of the dragon it's the fact that it looks like a chicken lizard it is It is the ugliest, weirdest looking dragon I have ever seen. it it makes no sense. It just looks stupid. But that's that's my biggest issue with it. I mean, it does look stupid instead of... so I mean, it kind of looks scary-ish, but like, yeah, I'm not a fan of...
00:58:29
Speaker
the look either. yeah is i think in the book it sounds scary. um Yeah, I think it goes more, wouldn't say it looks scary, I think it looks silly. I think it's funny looking. and It is menacing. Like it literally rips that dragon shoe. Rips that troll in half dragon standing shoe.
00:58:47
Speaker
sorry uh it's not a good looking dragon as far as fantasy adaptations go the trolls are kind of cool i do think the highlight of special effects in the film is the incorporation of the brownies they look consistently pretty good there's a couple scenes here there but using both the enlarged stages to film them on individual scenes and then incorporating them into the scenes with mad margain and willow looks pretty good consistently
Editing and Script Critique
00:59:22
Speaker
uh as far as the editing goes we mentioned it's got the classic
00:59:29
Speaker
Lucasfilm swipes and fades and all of those. And it's part of the charm of Lucasfilm. Like they don't they don't really appear anywhere else. And if they did, you would probably go, who edited this movie?
00:59:44
Speaker
Is it just like the first timer in Adobe software doing the like, yeah, side swipe, let's do that. Like it doesn't work anywhere else outside of Lucasfilm, but they're the charm of Lucasfilm.
00:59:57
Speaker
My nitpick, my Tim pick as our friend GC coined last year, Tim picks um on the editing is they seem to teleport from one important destination to the next.
01:00:11
Speaker
The book spends quite a bit of time on the beginning journey, and I guess the movie does too with all of the Nell wins, but it's just like, hey, we need to go find the island.
01:00:22
Speaker
We're at the island, and it just jumps, and it gives no real sense of time. Did this movie take place in a day, in a week, in a year?
01:00:34
Speaker
ah And it gives no real sense of space either we don't have a real grasp of how far these kingdoms are from each other and what they traversed in the editing and i do think for fantasy that's super important i know people who are like diehards about the maps in fantasies they like they live for the maps i have a middle earth map on the wall my library old school fast travel willow invented the fast travel
01:01:06
Speaker
uh one of the other scenes that I think is edited extremely poorly I shouldn't say extremely poorly um is when they're with Mad Mardigan when he's in the cage because it appears that they are there all day like from morning until night if not overnight while Mad Mardigan is in cage why Why do we spend so long sitting in this one location with this guy in a cage? Move on. It's just one area that I'm like, tighten that up.
01:01:40
Speaker
It doesn't need to be that long. it And it makes it seem like they spend forever with a guy that they're scared of. So it's just one of those areas that I have to 10 pick a little. But I think the special effects, the 4K that I picked up at Christmas time,
01:01:57
Speaker
the special effects look great on it still I prefer 1988 special effects to watching I just said I just watched Jurassic World Rebirth last night and I'm like that you can tell like they weren't seeing what was on screen like they weren't looking at it and a lot of times This movie isn't the shining example of that, but a lot of times if you had ah puppet in the film, E.T., we're talking about E.T. in a couple of weeks,
01:02:29
Speaker
Like, if you had that in screen, it feels tangible and real, and that's missing from a lot of modern CGI stuff. So I would prefer this old, slightly choppy special effects to everything being CGI.
01:02:43
Speaker
so I actually agree with you there. Even though I was really nitpicky about how it looks today, i still would prefer it over modern. Like, I hate CGI for today. i hate it. Yep. And I don't even think it's a charm thing. I don't even...
01:02:56
Speaker
I wouldn't say like, oh, it's the charm of practical effects. It's not, I think they look better. It's like the texture. Yes, it is texture. It's not smooth. It looks real. It looks like I can touch it because it was real and it was filmed. Even the use of miniatures, the use of miniatures is gone and use miniatures again. Miniatures look so good. yeah ah Let's go ahead and score these elements.
01:03:27
Speaker
So let me see. i lost my score. Jonathan, you can say everyone else can hear you. I can't. Four. He said four. Okay, he did say. He did. saw one of the fingers. Okay, and then Kelsey.
01:03:42
Speaker
I originally, I'm looking at my score. i was like, damn, I gave it a two. I'm going to raise it to a three. I feel like after we we talked about it and I even... said that i prefer it over modern, and that is true. That is 100% true. I'm not just saying that. I'm gonna raise it to a three.
01:03:58
Speaker
Okay, Travis gives it a four. The Tiny Demon gives it a four. Rally Reviews gives it a three. Alfred gives it a four. And I also give it a four. I think the special effects are one of the strong points of the film for me. So that is a praise. So let's go from special effects to the script. Uh-oh.
01:04:23
Speaker
Oh, more Tim Higgins. last, guys. you you go ahead. Jonathan, if you want to start, I'll go ahead and pull it up on YouTube so I can hear you.
01:04:34
Speaker
um The script, I thought it was decent. There's a lot of fun lines throughout the dialogue. I especially like when Mad Mardigan is picking on Willow when he's threatening to throw the acorn at him, you know, just ribbing him. It's like, oh, see his acorn, I'll throw at you, turn you to stone. Oh, I'm really scared. No, don't. There's a peck here with an acorn pointed at me. You know, it's fun stuff like that. And like what we saw in the intro when Matt and Marnigan and Sorcia are on the horse and they're talking about what he said and all the love he was spouting and how she just like ribs him and like tries to escape. There's so many little jib-jab lines and fun bits of dialogue throughout this that you got to appreciate it. It can't really be. It's like the most top-notch of dialogue, but there's so much fun stuff in here.
01:05:22
Speaker
I can hear you now in real time. No, in real time. Yeah. baby i I have to, i have to get in here. um The fun dialogue is not in the script.
01:05:36
Speaker
That was ad-libbed by Valcomer. Really? Yes. shit that That is ad-libbed by Valcomer, which is still impressive. It's, it's a plus, but yeah, Kelsey.
01:05:49
Speaker
I gave this higher than I think I'm gonna end up giving it. I'll save my score reveal till we go around. But ah thinking about it more, I do like some elements of the script, especially some dialogue that's not even in the book. Like there's funnier parts with the brownies in the movie than in the book. ah The brownies are still comical in the book, but in them in the movie, there's that one part where he's like, bear! And then there's like, your mother was a lizard! I don't know, that's so freaking gold. And that's not in the book. So ah I just thought they were a little bit funnier in in the movie. So like that added to this like the script, obviously, and
01:06:26
Speaker
those parts added to it for me but ah there were some things i feel like that were left out that were condensed when i'm really thinking about it that you know has to bring it down a little i'm gonna be like tim and pick it pick at it tim pick kelsey pick whatever
01:06:45
Speaker
so cal vilmer yes that is never gonna get old I mean, a part of me thinks the weak okay the weakest part of this film is its script. I'm not going to lie to you. I think everything else.
01:07:02
Speaker
is fine if the script was better the movie would be better period i think it's not a result of the direction or anything uh the writer hasn't done a ton so it's written by bob dolman who wrote comedies before this tv sitcoms wkrb in cincinnati was actually a great show uh sctv which I believe SCTV, that the one that birthed John Candy? Yes, that was that was John Candy and a whole bunch of other, the Canadian s ah snl
01:07:42
Speaker
yes is what that was is John Candy Eugene Levy uh Catherine O'Hara Rick Moranis Martin Short all came from that but he was a writer for that which is why you would think you would think a lot of the comedy was him but Val Kilmer is the one that I found funny and he had lived a bunch of stuff so um
01:08:06
Speaker
where's my notes there are a bunch of elements as as we've gone over i went into it in the story i i need that connective tissue and i think the script fails to deliver a lot of that connective stuff and there's others other scenes that don't quite make sense to me like when mad martigan is driving the carriage and they're being attacked and willow yells at him like i'm warning you what Warning he's gonna fall off? You're warning him what? He's trying to get you away from the soldiers who are trying to kill you.
01:08:44
Speaker
What are you upset about right now? And it that doesn't connect to me. There's that little stuff. Where's my other note? Moments like Finn Rizal, I already talked about her magic form, but there's a moment when Mad Mardigan is like, what'd you look like? And she goes, don't interrupt. And then immediately answers him.
01:09:12
Speaker
ah so So we don't need it's choose one immediately answer him or don't have the don't interrupt. We don't need both. It it clashes for me. And there are moments in the film. I hated the brownies in this.
01:09:26
Speaker
Really? oh my gosh. They drove me crazy in the book. Yes. So when I say I'm skimming, if there were brownies talking, i was skimming that stuff. He drove me nuts in the book.
01:09:38
Speaker
I like them better in the movie. Ultimately, I feel like the Brownies are C-3PO and R2-D2, but the robots have more personality. So that is that is my comment on the Brownies. They're not my favorite part of this film at all. and But there are moments in the movie like when they are about to enter a tent and Mad Mardigan and Willow are outside of it, and the Brownies say, let us do it.
01:10:07
Speaker
and neither willow or mad martigan acknowledge them whatsoever and go in and it's just one of those things where you felt like they were filmed on two different sets because they didn't have that connection so i i think the script is where i have the most issues with this i think the story is has great potential tons of fun even though i said it's a little bit of a star wars knockoff um i think there's a lot in there the world is fascinating i want to read the sequel trilogy i got on pango and tried to track him down and i can find the first two but not the third um i want to read the trilogy that finishes his story apparently it is much darker and apparent and it is written by chris claremont who if you are a comic book fan chris claremont is the one who made the x-men
01:11:03
Speaker
number one sellers like Chris Claremont wrote the X-Men in the eighties and nineties. And it is why it was his stuff is why it became legend and went to TV and all of that. Chris Claremont is a huge comic book, important writer, but he wrote these movies based on more stories from George
World-Building and Potential Sequels
01:11:23
Speaker
Lucas. So I want, they're called the shadow trilogy, I believe.
01:11:28
Speaker
Um, I want to, I want to find them and read them because i think it's fascinating. I think this world is fascinating. Ultimately, I think the biggest issues I have with the movie are found in the script. Just some just some weird little issues that things don't connect, don't add up, and I wish they did.
01:11:53
Speaker
I can understand that. I just think I'm so lenient on the script, I guess, because I know they had to probably cut a lot out. They just couldn't make it any longer when it was already two hours. But why did they choose to include some things and not others? Like that's a poor decision. So I i always think my initial score is kind of lenient. So I think I'm going to lower it.
01:12:15
Speaker
yeah All right. Jonathan, is that all? yeah That's all I got to say for Yeah. So I'm just going to say it was a three.
01:12:32
Speaker
All right, Jonathan, you are a three. I this is this is where I had to come down on the film. I'm I'm a I'm a two Kelsey. I was a 4 originally because i was i'm I'm super lenient on all of my ratings for everything books, movies, i always rate high. But I'm gonna come down from a 4 and make it a 3 because I do think that is fair and like my actual opinion.
01:12:55
Speaker
Okay. ah The Tiny Demon was a three. Rally Reviews was a four. Alfred was a three. And Travis from Nightclub was a three as well. So I think that covers all of us. ah did Did you just put that comment up? I want to say Kelsey did make... Okay.
01:13:15
Speaker
I do. I think that's super true because i when I was watching it last night, I'm like, I can't believe it's like flying by. It did not feel like two hours at all. And that surprised me because I didn't even when I looked at the runtime, I was like, it's two hours. I would have never guessed that just because it never has felt that long to me any time I've ever watched it in my life.
01:13:35
Speaker
Hello. Welcome. Hi, Mike. All right, so the other, i now that I have to go back to it, yep, Mike has to get in on your running joke as well.
01:13:48
Speaker
I'm sorry. I will stop. The other thing, oh, I don't know. Will that show on screen? It does, it does. Yeah, we got the fish in there.
01:14:01
Speaker
Oh, shit. It's the best part of the movie. i mean So let's talk about scenes that got cut. It was filmed as well. There's evidence of the fish boy. There is? Yeah, there's a deleted scene of the fish boy. So Jonathan doesn't know this.
01:14:14
Speaker
In the book, when they go to Finn Rizal's island, it is protected by like a mer boy, fish boy type thing who he initially is like, don't go there.
01:14:25
Speaker
Just turn around, leave, whatever. He looks like kind of like a regular kid at first. Yeah. Like, who just comes out of the water. He's like, yo, turn back. and But, ah like, I think he has red eyes or something. but He's kind of creepy in the book. Yeah. He is very creepy. In the deleted scene, he's just like a chill teenager kind of. No! yeah But is it on the way back or on before he gets there that the fish... It's to on the way back that he basically almost...
01:14:53
Speaker
it makes it sound like Rillo becomes unconscious. Like he is dragged, he just by luck, he kind of makes it out and that's where the acorn comes into play, which is really cool. there There's all, like I love getting to see the actual acorn being used in in a meaningful way, one. Two, I like how they don't just go to the island and come back with nothing hindering them. This is supposed to be a cursed island.
01:15:18
Speaker
In the movie, you get no hint that there's any trouble getting there and getting back. So I love how in the book it is so different than that. it's like ah It's very much conveyed that it is a huge struggle for Willow to bring Fizrael back from that island and to bring... And she's already telling her, at at this point, she's telling Willow, we gotta to get back because at this point, this creature has told and alerted Babmorda that we're here, that this has been disturbed. Like, we've gotta get back right now. So it's like there's a lot more urgency
01:15:51
Speaker
and danger in the book in this part than in the movie yes i think so the last time i saw this movie before we were doing all this was probably 20 uh 2002 2003 like it has been a long time because i watched this when lord of the rings came out that was the last time i watched it uh And so reading the book, I read the book before I rewatched the movie because I wanted to see if it would jog my memory. I remembered enough to try to keep it, but I didn't remember the island whatsoever. And that's because it's nothing in the movie.
01:16:29
Speaker
And in the book, the island is almost terrifying. It is an intense scene. It is very good. So I like that. But they cut that from the movie. Like we said, they cut the scene with Sorsha's father, which I think is That, and it's not a long scene.
01:16:48
Speaker
It's pivotal. It's like literally like a line. and she's like, oh my God, like I've, but I guess they didn't want to include it because then they'd have to maybe include this whole backstory of,
01:16:59
Speaker
how Bavmorda didn't even like her husband, how she doesn't like the memory of him, how in the book there's a reference how she used to make Saoirse dye her hair so it wasn't red like her father's hair, the king. So, and then Saoirse got old enough, she was like, it's my hair, leave it alone. I'm not gonna dye it anymore. ah So basically in the book you get the gist that she has been poisoned against her father. There is really no big hint of that in the movie, so I guess that's their excuse why they didn't want to put the father swaying her. Because there's no evidence of Sorsha being like poisoned against him or thinking any other thing about him other than, I don't know, maybe not knowing that he existed.
01:17:45
Speaker
so i do want to clarify for those in the chat the book is a novelization of the script so but because it was 88 they were probably working on an earlier draft of the script and so there are things there's nothing majorly different but there are a bunch of scenes a bunch of backstory that didn't make the final film there's minor tweaks to the script like um I think it was something about like hedgehogs, like that's changed in the movie.
01:18:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think they changed ah hedgehogs to, what did he say? They just changed the animal. Yeah, they just changed the animal. And most of Mad Mardigan's lines are different because he ad-libbed them.
01:18:32
Speaker
so though those are minor tweaks but it does and like you said you thought he was sorsha was kind of poisoned against her father yeah i read it as she already had this resentment towards her mother early on that that's i was picking up like her mother made her change her hair and all these things they're like my mom's kind of a controlling bitch i like like there were scenes to that too i think she had complicated relationships i I would say with both of them, but I think she didn't know her father enough. Because I think in the book they referenced, she sees him in the ice, he whispers something, and then she remembered the good time she had with him Which clearly had tried, like that was tried ah that was, her mom tried to erase that from her memory, that there was anything good.
01:19:17
Speaker
She probably just didn't speak of him. I'm probably putting my own spin on it. Like, oh, she tried to turn him against the father, but I'm sure... It might not have even been mentioned very much, but definitely think there's also some weird relationship between her and her mother too. That's not even hinted at in the movie. Really?
01:19:35
Speaker
True. All right. We all gave our scores for scripts, didn't we? Three. leaves so Yeah. Three. Yeah. I thought, I think we did. All right. So we can move on to the acting. Cause I know we have mentioned quite a bit how Velcom or ad-libbed his lines. So you want to Jonathan, you want to kick off acting?
01:19:53
Speaker
i I thought the acting was pretty good. um I can't really complain too much except like it for me it was a little annoying. But like the naivete of some of the Nelwyn kind of put me off a little bit. But I mean, it just is what it is. If that's just how they are as characters, then it is what it is. But I just like it's when they're when they're camped out at the crossroads of Mad Mart again and just how too nice they are in this whole situation and believing and the way Mad Mardigan manipulates them emotionally is kind of funny, but I just like that whole naivety, just ah your, your hero's on a journey trying to do some shit. In the book,
01:20:32
Speaker
the High Alduin is like, give her to the first Daikini you see. And he's very emphatic about this. like So then in the book, they start micro analyzing, well, this is the first Daikini we see. What if we come back and tell him we did not give her to the first Daikini we saw? So they like start to analyze, well, he is the first one and that is what the High Alduin said, so we should.
01:21:01
Speaker
Give her to him. So it's kind of explained away like that, but I understand. i totally understand what you mean. And I do agree. Rad cardigan. Rad cardigan. like that one even more. That is good.
01:21:14
Speaker
but even more that is good ah Yeah, i I agree with you, Kelsey. like That scene specifically, i had to watch multiple times because I'm like, why did they all just turn around and leave? But in the book, it helps explain that like they're following what the High Alwyn says. In the movie, I feel like that's kind of glossed over bri very quickly. And not only that, like the warrior, I keep forgetting his name because it's hard to pronounce, but ah the main warrior guy who we get the backstory in the book, bonds more with Willow, bonds more with the child and is more reluctant to leave and do what Burgle cut, whatever the hell, whatever he wants. Oh, he'll leave. In the movie, he agrees right away. Like, okay, bye Willow.
01:21:57
Speaker
You coming, Mikash? Come on. Well, and I think I want It's like, thanks for just bailing, bro. Like, okay. Very cool, man. Yeah, go ahead, Jonathan, and continue thought. I want to find the description of Burkwuka in the book. Yeah, and Mikash is a bitch in the book. Like, he stayed, but he definitely didn't want to stay with Willow. Yes. But then he...
01:22:16
Speaker
redeemed himself when they were with the fairies he was like i want to stay and help and she's like no you must go this is for willow's ears only so he was half a bitch in the book and half okay he redeemed himself but yeah me gosh get out of here i don't know oh vong car i think his name was yeah the warriors vong car So in in the book, he describes Burglka as
Character Portrayals in Book vs. Film
01:22:43
Speaker
the stingiest, meanest moneylender in all of Nelwyn Valley. He was short even for a Nelwyn, which he's giant compared to them in the movie. Uh...
01:22:53
Speaker
He wore, when he wore any of his robes of office with pointed hats, he looked like a small pyramid. High living had turned his thick jowls warty and years of greedy cunning had beaded his eyes so that beside Betts the sow, he looked like a pig himself. That part's accurate.
01:23:14
Speaker
that part is accurate as hell yeah i'm sorry no the book was not nice no dude was definitely a goo bag that's for sure did i no and that is one of the issues i had is that he is really not samwise gamji um not burgo cut Migos. Migos. Because no way would a faithful friend when Willow's like, it's time for you to go home. I'm going to continue this journey. Tell Kaya I love her. And he's like, okay, good luck. Bye.
01:23:47
Speaker
Like, what? Like, no, I'm going with you. There's no like, I can't carry it, but I can carry you moment for these two. They don't have that bond. Yeah, and Willow is like so upset about the idea of leaving the baby with Mad Mardigan. Everyone else has already left.
01:24:04
Speaker
And in the book, they do have more qualms about leaving, or most of them. But Migosch starts fricking harping at Willow's ass, being like, yo, when are we gonna decide? What are you gonna do? Come on, man. And that's when I started to hate Migosch, in the book especially. yeah Well, the movie just made it seem like, well, wait, now that we've actually been issued this major quest, I'm going to go back home and tell everybody what's going on so they know what's up.
01:24:31
Speaker
Peace, bitches. Yeah. Peace out. Like, all right, cool, dude. Bye. All right. um I do think as far as performances go, Val Kilmer steals the show.
01:24:43
Speaker
I think it has to be noted that o why can't I think of uh I can't think of his name right now guy who plays Willow why can't I wait you won't give us yep a total brain fart a leprechaun yeah uh he was 17 during filming oh shit he was 17. if what I saw on the internet was true he was 17 when filming this which is impressive he was told like directed to act older and how to act like a father of two and but i also think that i have some minor issues with how he always just seems to be yelling at mad martigan always just like why are you doing this mad martigan blah blah blah and it it gets annoying it's not hugely problematic but i'm also like is this him
01:25:39
Speaker
a 17 year old trying to man up and be a father in the character. And it's coming across more as like, he's trying to assert himself and he doesn't need to in that moment. Like, like even the black root scene.
01:25:54
Speaker
Just like, you never give a baby blackroot. That's in the book though too. and It is. And in the book he's described in the very beginning, even with his own kids, as always worried, always anxious. So I feel like war Warwick played it a little more angry than anxious when I think the character at its heart is anxious and worried all the time. However, I still think...
01:26:19
Speaker
knowing that he was 17 actually makes me like his performance even more. i think also reading the book makes me like his performance even more because I think I used to get annoyed at his ah his yelling at Mad Mardukin when I would watch it previously. But after reading the book and immediately watching the movie,
01:26:39
Speaker
it didn't bother me like it used to and i actually was more just absorbed about his scenes with the baby and knowing that he was freaking 17 and he's freaking having those scenes with his own kids and the baby and i will tell you something that stuck out the ending of the movie always makes me cry when he reunites with his family i mean i love that it got me too i've been me I'm always ah very clear on this show that I'm an emotional movie watcher. And this this one gets me at the end every time. Every time. Even though for those who have dropped in and just hear me apparently just crapping on this film, I said I love it.
01:27:19
Speaker
But that also means I'm going to I've seen it more than other movies. So I got ah I got a rag on it a little bit. But ah yeah. I already said Val Kilmer steals the show. I like him better than Han Solo, if in all honesty. Me too. Me too. I i think he's funnier.
01:27:39
Speaker
There's just that. There's a small body movement, like body language gesture that he does that I think is so... It embodies his character so beautifully when... um Willow finally thanks him.
01:27:57
Speaker
I think it's right before they go to the island. And Willow says, Matt Mardigan, like yells at him again, and then goes, thank you. And Matt Mardigan just kind of turns and goes and walks away. And I'm like, that little hand gesture, like it's not real. It's kind of like, it's funny and it works with the character. And it's just like a little moment that Val Kilmer killed it on this character. I love it. And I think the fact that he had lived a bunch of things shows he really tried to embody who this character was.
01:28:33
Speaker
I will say his line of, and I'm the king of Kashmir, took me out of it for a second because i think of cashmere as being a very 80s thing and so i had to do some research on cashmere because i'm not familiar with it other than like in seinfeld when they're like oh is that a cashmere sweater like i had to do some research on cashmere and apparently it is a very old thing from like the 1600s so i'm you said cashmere i think led led zeppelin so i'm like okay so i i can let it go i can let it go but when i was watching it i was like that's a very 80s line so but uh yeah i honestly i think sorcia
01:29:17
Speaker
didn't have ah as much to work with on screen I think she's she's good. i would have liked to see more from her, but she really doesn't get much until the end.
01:29:29
Speaker
um General Kale is just a big bad. the The biggest issues I have with any of the performance in in this film are like the small characters. The mom at the beginning over delivers the crap out of her segment. Just too much, too much. Too much love and warmth.
01:29:49
Speaker
Yeah, Raina, no, when she's like yelling at Bav Morda, like, she's going to kill you! Oh, that. I couldn't remember. It is too much. So there's little complaints about some of the side characters, but it doesn't it it that adds to some of this like nostalgic charm for the film. so But the main performances, I think, are great. I think Bav Morda, who was that?
01:30:14
Speaker
she does i think she does an excellent job and she doesn't have a ton either but she's one that i almost would like to see ah more villainy out of jean marsh like she's villainous on there but like i want to see her melt a soldier for doing the wrong thing you know yeah oh she was in alfred hitchcock's frenzy that is a nuts movie return to oz oh yeah okay yeah return to oz that's cool
01:30:45
Speaker
I need to watch that. It's creepy. Return to Oz is way creepier than The Wizard of Oz. That's what I've heard. i haven't seen that one. but It's a good creepy kids movie. She is mostly known for a lot of TV series from what I'm from what i'm seeing. So she did Return to Oz right before this.
01:31:03
Speaker
But she was in like The Love Boat. She did an episode of Murder, She Wrote. a love Murder, She Wrote. Just a bunch one episode stuff, but she's actually very good. She's very good. So acting, what's our scores there?
01:31:19
Speaker
Four.
01:31:21
Speaker
Five. I really love the acting. I have no complaints. Five for me. ah Banger. I loved everything. i think the acting makes it. like I think a lot of your complaints, Tim, are more script-related.
01:31:32
Speaker
i would agree. You could say that they're acting-related. I think it's more... Sorcerer could have done more, but again, that wasn't the actor's fault. That was what she had. And you referenced that.
01:31:44
Speaker
I know it might seem high, but I'm sticking. It's five. Get it like you like it. That's all right. Beautiful. Did I lose Jonathan again? Did you Tim? Did you lose me again? on call damn Son of a bitch. He called you a son of a bitch. I call you a man.
01:32:01
Speaker
mode With love. Now now I gotcha. So it is so weird if I go in and out of studio mode where I can like edit before you see it. Oh, that's weird.
01:32:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird. But like even I'll switch and then I'll lose you and then I switch to the other version and you're back and then ah it's bizarre. Why Evie Mucks, Mucky Muck? Come Uh huh. So Jonathan, did you finish what you were saying?
01:32:26
Speaker
Four, yeah. just forest Four, okay. I'm actually a four too, because I do agree, like Kelsey, what you said. I think my issues are more with the script, and I think they did a good job with what they have. My only real complaint is you nailed it when you said...
01:32:42
Speaker
Warwick Davis played him angry and I definitely got more anxious from the character in the book. And so I think that is my biggest issue is that.
01:32:55
Speaker
Is outrage of Mad Morgan's methods for baby handling. Hey, this time it was Kelsey that I lost, but I switched modes and got it back. um Yeah, I'm a four. Let me go through and read the others.
01:33:08
Speaker
Tiny Demon gave it a three. Rally Reviews gave it a two. Alfred gave it a four. And then Travis gave it a four as well. So. God damn.
01:33:19
Speaker
Direction.
Ron Howard's Direction and Impact
01:33:20
Speaker
Ron Howard on the direction for this film. Oh, Ronnie. I mean, I think he did a great job for the the time period that this was shot in. Like you guys mentioned, doing revolutionary things with effects and with a script that probably had to be pretty obviously chopped down i think what he churned out was amazing considering how much of a cultural impact it then had later so i would say he did a pretty darn good job overall
01:33:58
Speaker
jonathan
01:34:01
Speaker
Yeah. Direction. Hey, um I like the use of like the overhead shots and the landscaping or landscape itself. Yeah, the swipe transitions kind of meh.
01:34:14
Speaker
Wasn't really fan of that. But the way they kept pace of the story so that like you were saying, like it didn't feel like it was two hours long, the way they kept the pace between scenes on that, I think really helped it a lot. So that was cool.
01:34:30
Speaker
I agree with Travis. Ron has made some banger films. So what we're talking about before this, he made cocoon. He made that in 85. That's a kick ass movie.
01:34:43
Speaker
Backdraft, Apollo 13. Every, most people I know love this film. I can't stand it, but How the Grinch Stole Christmas with Jim Carrey was a Ron Howard film. i didn't know that was Ron Howard. What the hell?
01:34:56
Speaker
A Beautiful Mind was Ron Howard. Cinderella Man. ah Da Vinci Code's not well known as his best film, but Frost frox for fro frost slash Nixon, if I can speak. Yeah.
01:35:12
Speaker
I actually, i know a lot of people did not like it. I actually thought Solo, a Star Wars story was pretty good. thought it was pretty good. Yeah, liked that one. think Cinderella Man that you mentioned is underrated as hell. I think that's a great movie.
01:35:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think so that one these are all great. And also he did Arrested Development, which is one of the most underrated sitcoms ever. So I'm going to, he's the narrator in Arrested Development. I didn't know that either. narrates.
01:35:41
Speaker
He's like the voice of Job, of not Job. he's the Anyways, he's the narrator for Arrested Villain. Great series, by the way. ah But yeah, I think he does a great job. and People are upset you don't like the Grinch. I know, I'm sorry. i I really... Step it on toes, bro.
01:36:02
Speaker
I really don't like when Jim Carrey overperforms. You don't like Ace Ventura 2 when nature falls? The Fat movie was amazing. I wanted to bid on that rhino. I wanted to bid on that. hear about the rhino going over auction? I want that rhino. It should belong to me. I have reenacted that scene from Ace Ventura 2 so many times. It is a travesty that I cannot afford that rhino. Anyway, I love Ace Ventura overacting. Should we just build you one? Build you rhino butt so he can squeeze out of I'm so sorry. have been very clear. I'm not a big comedy fan.
01:36:39
Speaker
I don't love comedy. It takes a really weird, unique movie for me to love comedy. Give me the comedy. I'm all for it. ah But the fact that I said I don't like when Jim Carrey overperforms and you immediately went to Ace Ventura, I was like, yes! Yes! I can't.
01:36:57
Speaker
Yeah, the thing you hate, I love. That is my jam. yeah like When he's literally like... yeah like coming up I can reenact it right now. It's my favorite thing. My mom used to be like, you're acting this way because you watch Ace Ventura too much. like She would always think any time I was being like weird or over the top, it was because of Ace Ventura. I was like, probably, but you know it's just a great movie. whatever I love seeing all the ah internet talk about him being replaced with a clone recently. That's- I know, what the hell? so does Some dudes taking credit for wearing a mask?
01:37:32
Speaker
yeah It doesn't look like him. No. Some makeup artist is claiming that they were Jim Carrey in the mask. What the? Yeah, like they had an actual like Jim Carrey, like realist Jim Carrey face mask, and they claim that they were the one wearing the mask at the awards, and that wasn't really Jim Carrey. It's crazy. It sounds like bullshit.
01:37:48
Speaker
That's scary. That's true. That is nuts. um And to clarify for those of you in the chat, I think Jim Carrey is a great actor.
01:38:00
Speaker
I think he's actually, and when he's dramatic and serious, amazing. Oh, so you like Eternal Sunshine, like everybody else. The number 23? Well, that one's a great movie too. Yeah, I like that movie. yeah That's a great film. But anyways, like, it is when he overperforms that I have the issues. It's when he's when he's over the top. But anyways, ah we're talking Ron Howard's direction. And he shot this movie in New Zealand.
01:38:29
Speaker
10 years before Peter Jackson would take his Lord of the Rings group over to New Zealand and film because sucker I think he saw the beauty of New Zealand and it looks like a fantasy world. He did a great job. I, you can tell they shot on location for so much stuff and it looks excellent. The 4k, I know I'm jumping on this again.
01:38:52
Speaker
The 4K version looks beautiful. It is excellent. It looks so good. Even i thought the special effects held up pretty well. and Normally when you upscale movie like that, the special effects look worse. It didn't. I thought it looked good.
01:39:09
Speaker
But I do. Yeah, or getting back on topic. Getting back on top. um the I I'm impressed with the direction I think he framed it shots well I think it's well constructed it's a good looking movie it is we're going to be talking about Krull in two weeks k-r-u-l-l Krull that's a fun movie and then we're going to be talking about He-Man and the Masters of the Universe and both of those is oh thanks Travis um
01:39:45
Speaker
I think both ah neither one of those look as good as this movie. They're fun. They're great movies, but I don't think they look as good as this one. I think this one looks far and away better than them.
01:39:57
Speaker
So I think Ron Howard did an excellent job with the direction. Is that all we have for the direction? I suppose so. But gotta say, though, like when you mentioned Kroll, though, the the music in Kroll kind of makes me think of like the movie of the music here in Willow.
01:40:13
Speaker
There's like some c simical so ah similar orchestrations with high notes and the horns that just really punch it up. So i I'm excited for for us coming up on Kroll. I like this a thousand times more than Legend.
01:40:24
Speaker
That's just me, though. I mean, the Legend effects are great. Like Tim Curry. I mean, you can't beat Tim Curry, but... I have never seen... What? do what what what You have not seen Legend?
01:40:35
Speaker
Bro. I just think this is culturally more impactful than Legend. don't know. It's unacceptable that you seen Legend. I'm sorry. Yeah, you gotta to see it so you can talk about it. I know you can timpick and talk shit the fuck out of that. Watch the movie, please. watch that Also, my favorite thing to come out of Ron Howard's Grinch movie is Taylor Momsen becoming the front woman of the Pretty Reckless movie.
01:41:00
Speaker
isn't that badass though that is just she's she's cindy lou who and then she turns out to be in a metal band in her 20s that is too awesome well i guess she maybe she's in her 30s now i don't know but anyways i score it let's give the scores four four here i think this is first time we're all in agreement and actually every single person who submitted their review gave it a four as well. So everybody thinks that.
01:41:28
Speaker
So let's go into the it factor on the
Cultural Relevance of 'Willow'
01:41:31
Speaker
film. So the it factor is the cultural relevancy of this film. How is it received then? How is it received now?
01:41:43
Speaker
I think then it was a pretty big deal. I think it was pretty culturally relevant. I don't know how many other fantasy leaning movies got that popular to the level that Willow did. You guys already mentioned the big impacts and effects and the way it was shot. So I think I know that I went to my cousin's house, she doesn't remember this, but I was jealous because she had a fricking willow bowl or cup or something. And I was like, I want that fricking cup. I remember even just as a kid being jealous of that. So to me, when ah you're a kid lusting after some kind of merchandise for the movie, I think it's done its job culturally. i don't know. That's at least just me.
01:42:26
Speaker
That's fair. oh um For me, I'd say it's it's a mainstay in 80s fantasy films. It is so popular. Even now, even some younger generation generations are familiar with what Willow is.
01:42:39
Speaker
Maybe not as much as I'd like to see, but it's it's a film that's that's really well known, even from then to now. And there's always so many good things that people are to have to say about it. And then, you know, how that kind of inspires other fantasy films after the fact. I think it's great.
01:42:55
Speaker
I think it's really good.
01:42:58
Speaker
So well where are my notes? Sorry. um It was the first major fantasy film like I said it it attempted the Star Wars formula in fantasy but it underperformed their expectations they the trilogy of books that tells the rest of the story was originally planned to be movies they were there were supposed to be more movies and while the movie made a profit pretty significantly I think it was close to like a hundred million in profit
01:43:34
Speaker
it wasn't enough for lucasfilm that was writing off of star wars and indiana jones for them to justify more movies uh it bridged the gap for sure between aous fantasies like the dark crystal and dragon slayer into more lord of the rings epic style films and i think it works really well i think it works really well and i just trying to figure out how to say it i knew nothing about this movie until lord of the rings came out and then there was a little bit of a resurgence and i think it like they timed the dvd release to this around the time that lord of the rings because i remember my first copy of fellowship of the ring was vhs and then by the time two towers came out it was dvd
01:44:32
Speaker
So I think Willow timed their release of the DVD version of the film to coincide with Lord of the Rings and that put the movie on my radar.
01:44:43
Speaker
And I remember watching it with buddies. Even then i would have been like 11 or 12. So I remember watching it at that time, but I hadn't heard of it before. I didn't know about it at all. And I grew up on Star Wars. So when I was like, George Lucas made a fantasy movie? Yes, I was so excited. That is surprising to me.
01:45:03
Speaker
Yeah, it there were a lot of things I didn't know about in my house. ah Because and my mom, like my mom and I are very similar personalities and interests. And growing up, I always watched Star Wars and I thought it was my dad that liked it.
01:45:21
Speaker
And then I find out that like, no, mom is a Star Wars fan. mom mom my One of my earliest memories is mom reading The Hobbit to me. Like she she raised me on all that. And it honestly wasn't until I was in like college that I was like, oh, it was mom that liked all those things, not dad.
01:45:39
Speaker
And so this is one, she doesn't like when things get too dark. And this one got pretty dark at the end. She wasn't a big fan of it. So she didn't really introduce us to this one.
01:45:53
Speaker
So I found those things out later. I like when things get dark. I think the darker it is, the more I can appreciate when things are good. And on vice versa, like I was talking about, Kelsey mentioned she caught our Bring Her Back review. I mentioned when you have light scenes and brightness and happiness,
01:46:14
Speaker
in a dark story it makes it more effective than just being brooding all the time so this movie anyways long long way to get around that uh i'm just surprised that i knew very little about this movie until 2012 really so that does affect my it factor just a little bit but it was pretty successful i wish it had been more successful so we could have gotten willow 2. i wish I wish, but you guys want to go ahead? Let's score it.
01:46:47
Speaker
ah I'm going to give the it factor a four out of five, because for me growing up, it was a big thing. It was a big thing in my house. i mean we always i' probably saw it for the first time at seven or eight.
01:47:01
Speaker
ah But my parents were into dark stuff. They were like, oh, you want to be Travita's cool. let's ah Let's buy Watership Down on VHS, which is not a kid's movie. That one I knew about.
01:47:13
Speaker
You did, but you didn't know about Willow? No. That is a conundrum. I don't understand that. Ask your mom, why'd she let you watch Watership Down? I was a kid. I don't get it. Anyway.
01:47:23
Speaker
For me, there's a lot of nostalgia to it, so I think that affects my score, but I do think there's cultural impact to go along with it, so I feel the four is a good score for me, so justified for Jonathan, you held up your fingers. I'm a three. Yep.
01:47:39
Speaker
You're a three. I am a, where did I put it? I'm a three as well. Travis from the nightclub says it is a five. Alfred gave it a three, Rally Reviews gave it a two, and the Tiny Demon also, well, not also, gave it a four. So here is our final category where we give our overall how much we enjoyed this thing and our final thoughts about the film. And then I'll get everybody's final scores together and tallied up and we can see what this average lands at. So Kelsey, since you're a guest, you want to give us your final, how entertained were you out of 10 and your final thoughts on the movie?
01:48:23
Speaker
I was very entertained out of 10. It's a movie I love. I've watched it many, many times throughout my entire life. The last time I rewatched it wasn't even the that that long ago. it was like two or three years ago. I did it as a watch party for one of my events. And we all were like, well it's part of my like reference lexicon in my live streams. It's a nine out of 10 for me. um I'm very entertained by it. To me, a nine out 10 equates to like a 4.5 out of five, which means it's a favorite of mine, but it is not like a
01:48:56
Speaker
the top, top, top tier. So it's not perfect. I recognize that. That's why it is a nine out of 10 and out of 10 out of 10, but it is still considered a favorite of mine. So nine out of 10. Nice.
01:49:09
Speaker
Perfect, Jonathan. For me, you know, I grew up in the 80s as a kid, and this is one of my top 80s films for fantasy. I will always love this film. For me, it's a straight up nine all day, always.
01:49:25
Speaker
So I'm just looking at our results here and Kelsey, I think it's you, you said nine out of 10 is about four and a half based on our scoring system. We got close to that. It was a 41.5, which would be a four out of five. So we got, we got close to that, but I was like seeing how, how it plays out on these.
01:49:48
Speaker
um I'm going to read some of our other people. who submitted their thoughts and then I'll get to mine. So the tiny demon gave it a 10 out of 10 on how entertained were they.
01:50:02
Speaker
ah i can't, this is their quote, I can't separate the actual quality of this movie from the feelings I have for it. The fact that it was the first, I just lost it, first live action film I saw in theater at four years old and how my mother told me that I was the baby who played a Laura.
01:50:22
Speaker
As a baby, I was just too young to remember it, of course. And that, for a good while, I actually believed her. Sure, Mad Mardigan is the fun, charming hero, and Val Kilmer is great. But as a little person myself, I was completely taken with the Nelwins and their community and dreamed of one day having adventures with Will Ofgood. going to cry. Warwick Davis doesn't get enough credit for how great he was in this part and how much emotional depth and maturity he brought to it before he was even 20 years old.
01:50:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's beautiful. um I love that. I love that. I love it so much. I'm tearing up right now. Wow. Okay. ah I thought the movie felt dated. This is from this is from Rally Reviews. They gave it a 7 out of 10.
01:51:07
Speaker
And they say, I thought the movie felt dated and you could see it had old effects. However, it was still very entertaining. it was a sweet It was sweet and heartfelt with the main character, the baby, the talking animals, the village, and a love story. It was also evil and gory with special effects and grit. The music and some of the some of the scenes made me a little sleepy, put the environment settings and the rest was gorgeous and stood the test of time. I was entertained and enjoy it. The beginning reminded me of the story of Moses, but then it gets, yes, yes, me too. And then it got into more fantasy. I love the fantasy elements and that good movie, very nostalgic. ah
01:51:45
Speaker
This is, all I have is the email for this person. Alfred is in the email, so I have no idea if that's their name or not. um Alfred scored it a 7 out of 10 and said, Overall, Willow is a heartwarming and enjoyable film. There are so many other great fantasy tales that this film emulates, the strongest comparison being Lord of the Rings.
01:52:08
Speaker
Like Frodo, Willow goes on a great quest to rid the world of an evil that threatens to dominate everything. He returns a changed man who is more confident and capable of his abilities as a nurturer and a protector.
01:52:19
Speaker
or Luke Skywalker. Another film that comes to mind while viewing Willow is Jason and the Argonauts. This is specifically in reference to the special effects used during the battle sequence against the double-headed dragon. Good, good. That's, yes. That's great comparison. Yes. The stop motion reminded me so much of the same technique used in Jason and the Argonauts or Clash of Titans. That's excellent.
01:52:42
Speaker
in closing warwick davis is the heart and soul of this film and really shines on screen willow is a solid entry point for anyone looking to get started in the fantasy genre i agree and then i'll read travis's here he gave it a 9 out of 10 says willow is one of the 80s childhood fantasy films that has always been a blast to watch and then we're on mine that's a lot of reading okay I gave it an eight out of 10. Like I said, I love this movie. I really do. And I know it sounds like I was just shitting on it the whole time. no
01:53:15
Speaker
one But those are the those are the reasons why it's not a 10 out of 10 for me. Like this movie is so good. I wish it was that much better to be held in the same regard as Lord of the Rings. I think Lord of the Rings are so like the best movies ever made. so and i think it's the greatest story ever told but this is like man you close those gaps for me you make some of those connections and i'm i'm right there i think it's great it's an 8 out of 10. i watched this three times in preparation for this i never do that i never i read the book in preparation of this i watched the
01:53:57
Speaker
I read finished the book, sit in poolside, and I watched the movie on my iPad on a ship sailing back to Florida. So I watched it all there, and I i do enjoy this movie. I'm not going to turn it on again immediately after, because the ending, I think, drags a little bit, is slow.
01:54:16
Speaker
I don't hate it though. But yeah, those are my thoughts. Our final scores, Jonathan, Kelsey, I added yours up for you since changed some things. Jonathan, you have yours?
01:54:27
Speaker
Yeah, have a total of 40. Let me get my calculator out. Okay, we have the Tiny Demon gave it, was at a 39 out of 40. Rally Reviews 28, or out of 50, sorry. rallallyer reviews was a twenty eight or out of fifty sorry And Alfred was 33.
01:54:48
Speaker
Kelsey, you were 41.5 as I said earlier. Jonathan, you said 40. I was a 46. And Travis was a 40.
01:54:59
Speaker
So how many people is that? That's seven. That brings us to... Wow, we had quite an array over there. And that brings us to a 36.78. would round that to seven. eight we would run that to a seven So 37, which would be a three and a half stars out of five for our total average on the F. So three and a half out of five, that's where we land.
01:55:26
Speaker
there's a lot of diverse ratings in there so like that kind of makes sense to me yes and that's what we try to say we say it all well we try to say it frequently on the show is that we're here to celebrate how everyone sees movies differently so there's quite a few different opinions in here but kelsey thank you so much for being here Thank you guys for having me. I had a blast. Thanks for letting me talk about rhino's asses. Brownies being like bear. I just had a, i had a great time. and I know I talked really a lot and I kept adding more in, but i don't often get to talk movies in this much depth. So truly it is a joy and a pleasure. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for asking me. And in case you're wondering, I gave the book a 4.5 out of five. It's actually in the upper tier of the books I've read this year. I've only read 15 far, but. This one, um i've only read I've only rated a few 4.5 and 5. So this one's one of the ones that is higher up there. I just loved it. There were some great descriptions, especially near the end, where we don't get in the movie. They... um
01:56:32
Speaker
I think Kale is going in and he's like, raise the drawbridge, even though some of his soldiers are behind him. So he Fs them over, they get stuck on the outside of the castle. They're trying to get in, but the drawbridge is going up and they fall into the moat and like dissolve. And it's described in in the book and it's badass. Yeah, it's great.
01:56:52
Speaker
ah that I totally forgot to mention, I love Matt Mardigan's scene of like defending the castle by himself in the movie. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. It's so cool. shows some of his ingenuity in there.
01:57:05
Speaker
i I enjoy that a lot. And definitely, i agree. i read the book too. Things Kelsey remembered, I didn't remember. Things I remembered Kelsey didn't know. Do we read different books? I I just think i'm I'm very bad at I get general overviews a lot more.
01:57:26
Speaker
So, or yeah, I can't think straight, but I'm terrible with characters. And the one thing that killed me in this book was keeping track of all the Nelwyn names and the Brownie names in the book. I was like, who, who are these? Who's Fran Jean? don't care who Fran Jean is. Fran Jean is my freaking awesome Brownie. I love Fran Jean. Yeah. It's, it's nuts in there, but yeah,
01:57:53
Speaker
Let's go ahead and we shall wrap this up. Jonathan, I'll put the outro in the script. Yep. I see it there. So perfect. I hope I didn't edit this. So hopefully it's all correct. We'll make it work. We'll find out. Yep.
01:58:12
Speaker
Alright, so there it is folks. The magic of the Diakini's meets the grounded reality of our scorecard. Looking at these numbers, it's clear that while the logic gaps in those divisive brownies took a hit, the it factor of Willow is still incredibly strong nearly 40 years later.
01:58:25
Speaker
It really is, whether it's the practical effects that pave the way for some of modern cinemas, movies like Jurassic Park, or just the sheer charisma of Cal Vilmer. I got to say Val Kilmer. This movie holds a special place in the social setting of our lives. It's not a perfect film, but it's a perfect conversation, especially when you dig into the novelization and see the massive world that George Lucas was really trying to build.
01:58:53
Speaker
So speaking of great conversations, we couldn't have kicked off this sword sorcery series with anyone better. Kelsey, thank you so much for joining us tonight. it was awesome finally having you on in the booth to bridge the gap between the film and the lore.
01:59:04
Speaker
Thank you guys so much. Again, I really appreciate it. Yeah, you want to tell people what you have coming up next? i saw you post your story. You got some fun stuff coming up. plug it Yeah, I've got, um if you guys like nostalgia, and to me, Willow screams nostalgia, I have an event that I'm running in April, and it sounds... To those who are not familiar with online events, a lot of readers are. They're called readathons. I decided to make something similar, but to encompass movie watching, activities, crafts, everything you could want to do in an activity, an online event that you could join in on. it's It's basically like everything I wanted growing up, making up a community of like-minded peeps who love nostalgia. So I run ah an event called Old School April, and it's a watchathon, you could call it, a readathon, an activityathon, nostalgiaathon overall, where we give you prompts, activity and reading, activity reading, watching prompts, and you choose what you want to do or what you don't want to do. You join in with the community. we have a Discord. We do watch parties. A couple of years ago, I played Willow for a watch party for Old School April. It's free, open to everybody.
02:00:14
Speaker
It's a great, safe community. I really implore you guys to please check it out. Go to my channel, Kelsey's Nostalgic Life, and the announcement video with more information and documents in the description of that video is up on my channel right now.
02:00:28
Speaker
everyone definitely most of you are here for kelsey for kelsey but if you're not go follow kelsey's nostalgic life uh we love her we love her over at the dread broadcast as well so thank you so much for finally coming out on ours to review movie and i love that we got to talk about the book as well me too thank you guys again you're Welcome so much. And also a huge thank you to everyone who participated in the chat tonight as well as sharing their scores. Your comments on the Fishboy debate and the General Kale vs. Darth Vader comparisons were top tier. Your voices are what helps make this the final average.
02:01:05
Speaker
In two weeks, the quest continues. We are staying in the realm of high adventure, but things are about to get a lot more interdimensional. That's right. In two weeks, we're continuing our Sword and Sorcery series with a cult classic that features a glaive, a cyclops, and some of the wildest production design of the 80s. We are reviewing Kroll.
02:01:26
Speaker
oh Get ready to discuss the Black Fortress and whether the glaive is the coolest weapon in cinema history. Make sure you head to the link in our bio to grab the scorecard for Kroll early, and we'll see you right back here in two weeks.
02:01:42
Speaker
I'm Jonathan. And I'm Tim. This has been The Average. Because at the end of the day, the real review happens with your friends. Good night, everybody.
02:02:14
Speaker
you