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Night 12: The Witch – A Folk Horror Masterclass | 13 Nights fo Halloween
34 Plays1 month ago
On Night 12 of our haunted countdown, we dive into the bleak, bone-chilling world of Robert Eggers’ The Witch — a slow-burn folk horror masterpiece steeped in historical dread, religious paranoia, and a talking goat named Black Phillip. Join Tim and Johnathan, along with special guest filmmaker Adam Gall, as they break down this 2015 modern classic. We dig into the film’s Puritanical roots, the real history behind the witch trials, and why Anya Taylor-Joy’s debut as Thomasin still haunts us nearly a decade later. 🔥 We rate the film using our signature Average scoring system—story, scares, rewatchability, atmosphere, and more. You can score along with us using the templates on our Instagram! 🕯️ Topics include: • The role of isolation and grief in The Witch • Behind-the-scenes trivia and Eggers’ obsession with historical accuracy • Black Phillip: GOAT or… goat? • The terrifying ambiguity of religious fear ✨ Be part of the conversation! Submit your own score here: 👉 https://tr.ee/iGtZ-DpOO6 📚 Want more horror? Check out our books on Amazon: 👉 https://a.co/d/bUtniBd 🎧 Check out our friends at Zencastr and get 30% off your first 3 months of Zencastr Pro: 👉 https://zen.ai/theaveragereviews 📖 Enjoy $5.00 off your first purchase when you use Tim Umpleby’s code “TIMOTHYREADS” at checkout: 👉 https://pangobooks.com/TIMOTHYREADS 👻 Don’t forget to LIKE, COMMENT with your score for Antrum, and SUBSCRIBE for more horror deep dives as we march toward Halloween night!
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Transcript
Introduction to Halloween Series
00:00:37
Speaker
All right, folks, night 12. We're in the final stretch of the 13 nights of Halloween.
Exploring The Witch: Historical Accuracy and Atmosphere
00:00:44
Speaker
And tonight we're going back to the woods. Not just any woods. We're heading straight into the 1600s into isolation, superstition and some pitch black Puritan paranoia.
00:00:59
Speaker
That's right. Tonight we're talking about The Witch, Robert Eggers haunting debut that shook up the horror scene back in 2015. A movie so committed to authenticity, it practically smells like dirt, goat musk, and religious guilt.
Themes of Dread and Authenticity in The Witch
00:01:16
Speaker
that is the vibe eggs went all in on historical accuracy pulling dialogue straight from real trial transcripts and journals from the 1630s everything from the costumes to the candles is period accurate it's a slow burn folklore heavy and some would say it's a master class intention And joining us for this one is our buddy Adam Gall, a horror fan who knows a thing or two about building dread.
Superstition, Religious Trauma, and Film's Nature
00:01:45
Speaker
You may have caught him in a few horror circles, but tonight he's hanging with us to talk goat's guilt and going full black Phillip. Welcome, Adam. Oh, thank you guys for having me back on. Yeah, we're we're excited to have you.
00:01:57
Speaker
yeah Yeah, Adam is the perfect guest for this one. We're going to dig into the themes, the pacing, the sound design, and the question that still divides people. Is it supernatural or was this just straight up religious trauma with a side of rot?
00:02:13
Speaker
As always, we'll be scoring it through the average lens stories, scares, rewatchability and more. ah You can join us by heading over to our Instagram to grab a scoring template and let us know where the like the witch lands on your personal scale.
Community Engagement and Promotions
00:02:29
Speaker
Don't forget to like drop your score in the comments and subscribe so you don't miss our big finale tomorrow night. But for now, gather your crops, keep your baby close and pray hard because we're heading into the woods with the witch.
Impact of Historical Fears on Horror Genre
00:02:43
Speaker
But before we do, i do want to take a moment to remind you that my newest book is available. So this is Halloween. It is the perfect time period to bring this baby ah um It is called like comment survive available now on Amazon.
00:03:05
Speaker
It's been out for a couple ah months now, I guess, but with Halloween right here, perfect time to pick up a found footage horror novel told entirely in YouTube transcripts about some paranormal investigators who get in over their heads.
00:03:26
Speaker
So head over to Amazon, check that one out.
00:03:33
Speaker
And then we are back in business here with the witch.
00:03:42
Speaker
I lost my script. There we go. What makes the witch so unsettling isn't just the horror. It's how grounded it is in real history. This isn't witches flying on broomsticks in the moonlight.
00:03:56
Speaker
This is the fear of the unknown, the fear of sin and of
Family Dynamics and Character Analysis
00:04:00
Speaker
exile. And it's all filtered through a Puritan lens. Yeah. And hits right away.
00:04:07
Speaker
I mean, they get banished in the opening scene. just straight up kicked off plantation for being more devout than the other Puritans, which is ah kind of saying something. So now you've got this family alone trying to survive with nothing but their faith, their guilt, and, you know,
00:04:23
Speaker
Black Phillip pure stubbornness too yes yeah yeah but pride as the father frequently says ah which let's talk about that dynamic William the father is trying to hold the family together but he's also the reason they're out there his pride is his downfall meanwhile Catherine the mother is unraveling after the loss of their baby and that grief just poisons everything And then there's Thomason and man, what a performance from Anya Taylor joy.
00:04:57
Speaker
This is her breakout role and she absolutely owns it. Thomason is caught in the middle. She's accused, doubted and constantly on edge. ah She doesn't fit the mold of her family, but she also doesn't have like the freedom to define herself.
00:05:11
Speaker
If that isn't every teenager ever. that tension between control and independence and fear that's what makes this film work it's slow sure but every scene tightens the noose just a little bit more and eggers doesn't hand hold the audience he drops you right into this bleak world and lets the atmosphere do the work the woods feel alive the house feels cursed even the silences are unnerving yeah and that score I love it.
00:05:42
Speaker
The dissonance drinks, the chanting, the sounds of branches cracking, the whole sound design. It's not jump scares in this movie. It's about creeping dread. Something is wrong and you're too late to do anything about it.
00:05:55
Speaker
And historically, this is all based on real fears that people had. The witch trials, the paranoia, the religious extremism. It's not a stretch. In fact, Eggers consulted with historians to make sure he was nailing it from the dialect to the timber framing.
00:06:09
Speaker
So whether you see the film as a supernatural horror story or a psychological breakdown wrapped in folklore, it's one of the most committed horror films of the last, well, it is decade now. It is right on the brink of that.
00:06:24
Speaker
So no winks, no irony, just cold, brutal sincerity. And with that, Adam, we know you've got a lot of thoughts on this one. Let's jump into the story.
00:06:35
Speaker
Here we go. But I, for starters, I think you guys like this one a lot more than I did. That's okay. That's what we're here to discuss. I'm excited to hear it.
00:06:47
Speaker
i well I want to if you guys don't mind starting off, I really want to hear what you guys think of it before I start being a negative Nancy on it. Because i do have a lot of really positive things to say, but I don't know. That's slow burn.
00:07:01
Speaker
Okay, it is So I remember it being a significantly slower burn than it was on this watch. So this is probably my second or third watch. It's not a movie I've watched a lot.
00:07:13
Speaker
on Eggers is admittedly, and I think I admitted this in our not for all two episode. He's somebody that grows on me. His first usually the first watch of a film. I don't appreciate that much.
00:07:28
Speaker
But the more I watch it, the more I unpack and the more I end up loving what he's done.
Robert Eggers' Filmography
00:07:35
Speaker
I've only felt that about one of his movies so far. ah He's done four films now with The Witch, The Lighthouse, Northman, and Nosferatu. And The Lighthouse is the only one for me that has gotten progressively better.
00:07:47
Speaker
i feel like Nosferatu, I'm pretty locked in where I'm at with it. yeah we I don't have anything good to say about The Northman. I hated that one. And The Witch, I'm surprised has aged so poorly for me. Because I did enjoy it when I first saw it Not today. in Interesting.
00:08:08
Speaker
So for me, the Northman, I did not like the lighthouse at all when I watched it. That was too weird for me. It was too weird for you to take that one. My girlfriend that I watched it with at the time, she thought it was amazing.
00:08:21
Speaker
I was creeped the fuck out, dude. i That's the point. That's the point. It did its job and growth in the creeping me the hell out, man. Yep. Exactly. It succeeded.
00:08:32
Speaker
But it wasn't one I wanted to revisit. But
Puritanical Faith and Family Effects
00:08:35
Speaker
since then, i have revisited it. And i liked it more the second time. i The more you dig into it, I think The Lighthouse is just one of the most layered movies I've seen in the last few years.
00:08:47
Speaker
I will say The Northman is the only one of his that I watched once. And I thought it was just like a heavy metal Norse music video.
00:08:58
Speaker
I thought it was so... I haven't gotten to that one yet. It was so obnoxiously loud. I couldn't get into it. I had yeah such a horrible time watching it. I refused to go back to it. I really don't want to experience that again.
00:09:13
Speaker
See, I feel like Sleep Token fans would really enjoy the Northmen. Yeah, I could see that. Because i enjoy I really like Sleep Token. But I watched the Northmen and was like, I need to go listen to some Sleep Token. It's the same vibe. but So you you either get it or you don't.
00:09:31
Speaker
Um, but this one, I will say, has grown with me more and more to where I almost think the story is tragic and less to do with horror, where I found myself getting choked up on this movie when and full spoilers, it's been out 10 years. If you haven't seen it yet, that's your fault.
00:09:54
Speaker
um the The the scene where Thomason has to kill her mother
00:10:02
Speaker
that was That was a very effective scene, yeah. I was... First of all, everything about it, the camera doesn't cut. It's a steady take for a while. Even to pulling back and watching the mom's dead body just laying on top of her.
00:10:17
Speaker
But the whole, like... Thomasin is innocent in this film. So that is what I'm watching. She is innocent and her entire family turns against her and her mom basically starts choking her out and to escape.
00:10:31
Speaker
She has to kill her mom. And I'm like, this is kind of brutal. So going into the story, There's a lot I really like about this. So as I was doing research for this, one of the top videos that was coming up was watching the witch with an actual witch. And i was like, what would be fun is I should title this watching the witch with a Christian because that's me. and But I love this film.
00:10:55
Speaker
And so i get this father's puritanical idea. desires to a degree, but he's kind of he's an extremist, really.
00:11:07
Speaker
And I don't as seen in that opening scene, he's too extreme for the rest of the town. You got to get out. Yeah. Within the first 30 seconds, you can tell that they're giving this family an opportunity to kind of repent for whatever it is that they did. Like we never find out exactly what it was, but they were given an opportunity and he's so stubborn.
00:11:26
Speaker
And I think that's the biggest tragedy of it is that this man's devotion to his faith dooms his entire family. and yeah And ultimately, i mean, you can assume that it dooms the whole town because after Thomason goes into the woods and and, you know, gives herself over to the coven, who knows what happens next?
Folk Horror Elements and Film Tension
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah. Who knows where it goes from there.
00:11:46
Speaker
But I love this dynamic of also Of all of the movies on our folk horror Halloween list, I feel like this movie embodies folk horror the best.
00:12:04
Speaker
Yeah. It is truly... a folk tale, as it says on the under the title. It's based on historical legends of the area and just what people believed in that time.
00:12:21
Speaker
And I feel like this movie truly embodies that fear. um i think where people don't necessarily resonate as much with the story. Is that historical element of it not understanding quite the same?
00:12:34
Speaker
Because I was also watching it this time being like, this is also just compelling family drama. You have your rebellious teenager that isn't fitting the mold of what mom and dad desire her to be and because the rebellion in 1600 is not you know she's listening to slipknot and whatever you know no it's her uh the river taunting her younger sister saying i be the witch yes which which is precisely something i would have done because i know thomason stop you can't come back from this
00:13:12
Speaker
Yeah, let's just rat her the hell out, man. Yeah. Bastards. Dude, like it's she lost sound she's that firstborn teenage kid who's taken shit from every everybody. And it sucks for, you know, so that's very frustrating on her end. And then, you know, the little twin brother, sister, Jonas and Mercy just being little shits.
00:13:30
Speaker
and constantly singing the weird songs about the fucking goat, you know, like they're obsessed with the damn thing. It's creepy. Let me ask you guys this. Do you
Supernatural vs Psychological Elements
00:13:38
Speaker
believe, because i have ah I have a kind of a hot take that I'll bring up in just a moment, but do you believe that the twins were actually being influenced by the devil or do you think that they were just kids being dicks?
00:13:49
Speaker
Because I kind of got the vibe that they were faking it the whole time just to kind of stir the pot. I think it's mostly them just kids being dicks. But I think there's some element there with the way they were singing the songs about the goat Black Phillip that were a little bit out there. I mean, yeah, kids can be kids and make up weird shit, but they like knowing their parents are so religious, you'd think they'd know better than to like really get into s singing songs about a black goat, maybe? I don't know.
00:14:16
Speaker
See... I'm bouncing off of the scene of Thomason, you know, saying that she was the witch by the Riverside. I really just got the vibe that none of the kids really believed any of this until it got to the point where shit was out of hand.
00:14:30
Speaker
It was is also one of the frustrating things for me that i'm I'm sitting here watching. I'm just like, you're doing this to yourself. Stop. Stop doing this. So I do think, like you said, i do think the kids might not have realized it was real, but I do think the kids brought it into the family.
00:14:48
Speaker
And the question, the question still is like, was black Philip Satan or was that just kind of her man like visualizing it after everything that has gone crazy was the ending kind of a psychotic break.
00:15:04
Speaker
And she's just like, you know what? Black Philip is say in to ah absolve herself. Or was he actually watching it this time?
00:15:15
Speaker
i was definitely more like the mom mentions a line and I don't remember exactly what it was, but she mentions kind of that black Philip had bewitched the family that he came from.
00:15:28
Speaker
hmm. So she kind of hints that it is probably real and black Philip was out there causing issues prancing around the yard and everything before.
00:15:39
Speaker
But I do think the younger twins brought it in, probably just thinking it's all a game, you know, not realizing the evil that they brought in. So I definitely think Thomason is innocent of it all.
00:15:53
Speaker
Her younger siblings bring it in and then Thomason gets the blame. Because she's the older sibling. That's how it always works. Older sibling is always blamed. Plus, you know, a pubescent teenage girl in that time period is already kind of seen as, I don't know, i don't know the best way to put it, a risk, right? That's that's when a a young woman is kind of blossoming into her sexuality.
00:16:16
Speaker
And especially in the early sixteen hundreds men falling victim to women being attractive was always kind of seen as like a devilish influence they even talk about she's at the age now where it's time to sell thomas and to get her out of there yeah send her to a family where you they can make use of her and all that and don't forget about her brother caleb you know he's the pre-tween dad's you know really have leaning into him with with the religious stuff and being born of sin and he's starting to like check out his sister's cleave while she's sleeping like yeah there are multiple times we see him kind of exploring her body so he's going through that period that is another layer to the story that i really really like is that not that he's lusting after his sister that's weird um that uh 1630 it was different then you at least had to be cousins um
00:17:15
Speaker
they kind of they target thomason and her
Character Arcs and Themes of Sin
00:17:21
Speaker
sins and faults and they kind of focus on that and it meanwhile the camera eggers is showing us the brother has lustful thoughts the dad struggles with his pride the mom like everybody has their own struggles but they're picking on thomason They're taking it out on her.
00:17:42
Speaker
And so that's where I'm, I'm on like, this is a fully relatable tale today. it is the script that we'll get into later is a significant barrier for a lot of people to not grasp.
00:17:55
Speaker
the full situation of what's going on but a challenge on the ears yeah yeah i with subtitles i love it i think it's there's a poetry to it but we'll get to that later um but yes i do think that causes an issue so when it comes to the story we have the layers of the family each with their own issues we have the layer of the folklore stay out of the woods you know the parents are teaching the kids stay out of the woods did the conversation of did the twins bring this in or not uh there's a lot to unpack in this 90 minute movie yeah on the layer of it is dense for 90 minutes so because of those reasons and because
00:18:42
Speaker
I, I love the story. i love seeing, i mentioned like, because of my faith, I also love seeing that puritanical element of it and the extremist kind of ah cautionary tale in that father and what he's doing.
00:19:02
Speaker
And I think it's beautifully done and beautifully told. so i Yeah, I love the story and it's grown on me more and more each time.
00:19:16
Speaker
So I'm not a religious person in the slightest, so I'm very interested and I'm happy that you brought that up yourself because Having a faithful perspective coming from the 21st century, I find it interesting that you would resonate with this story so much because at least from my point of view, I feel like the movie's sternly anti-Christian or at the very least anti-1600s Christianity because it's their faith that directly leads them into their demise.
00:19:46
Speaker
so do you have any any like perspective on how your present-day faith kind of reflects on that if oh man i would have to unpack that even more and i i don't want to put you on try to work my go into it if you know figure out how to say it correctly um but from where i'm i believe god is real and i believe satan is real and for So I do believe that black Phillip could have been Satan in this story.
00:20:20
Speaker
And what he's doing is leading them all into their temptations. He's leading them into what they desire most. That is what's that like to live deliciously. And so what we're seeing is we're seeing that indulgence of what happens when we just feed into each of our sins, each You know, we don't really see the brother descend into lust, but we see the father's pride bring down his entire family.
00:20:49
Speaker
He thinks he is so correct. And so, but he can't even admit. Yes, but he can't even admit that he sold his wife up. So it is really for me, it's kind of this story of indulging sins and leading into following that temptation.
00:21:08
Speaker
And I totally get where people think it's anti-Christian, but I also think art is very open to interpretation. Yeah. and I also think Christianity has evolved a lot in the last 400 years and that the Christianity of the 17th century is not the same as today. The pilgrims, yes. i to yeah i would ah i would i would agree with that. And I think there's a lot to be learned from where it was then.
00:21:35
Speaker
I think there's a lot to be learned from that. So that's something that I do find very fascinating. And I do think, I mean, this is an area where like, I'm going to I'm going to lead a Bible study in a small group tomorrow.
00:21:48
Speaker
And not everybody quite gets that I'm on here doing a horror podcast talking about movies and while I tell them that like you should watch The Witch. It's got some really interesting things for you to think about, like think about that stuff. Or which i tried to get my and small group to watch Heretic because there are a lot of great questions brought up in that film.
00:22:11
Speaker
i have not seen heretic yet i it have the the a24 exclusive uh 4k right behind me i haven't watched it yet though it is very religious based and does it raises a lot of really interesting conversation topics so i love horror for that it can tell a lot of great stories in a variety of methods but yeah i i just think that's funny that you know i'll lead small group tomorrow but here i am talking about the witch tonight and I have a great a great time doing it. It's a healthy balance, I think. It's a very respectable.
00:22:45
Speaker
yeah But kind of bouncing off of that, I think this a good time for me to bring it up, that my biggest issue with the movie has always been i don't find ah Puritan religion or witchcraft to be a particularly compelling thing for me.
00:23:02
Speaker
I have always believed that this this movie, as we got it, with just a couple different edits, If you remove all of the the scenes that confirm that the witchcraft is real and replace it with almost hallucinations or like ah paranoia and make it so that in regards to this movie, there is no God, there is no witch, there is no magic, there is no influence. It is all just this family falling into their own vices, into their own addictions, into their own kind of paranoia of the world around them and influence of their faith.
00:23:38
Speaker
I think it would be a far more compelling story, but that's coming from somebody who, like I said, I have absolutely no faith. So when, when you talk about is black Phillip actually the devil to me, I'm like, well, I think it's more interesting if it's just a goat that you're afraid of.
00:23:54
Speaker
Yeah. Not a lot of people agree with me on that, but I think he was just a devil if not Satan. yeah Cause I mean, he does lead her to the coven at the end and she's falling into the woods and everything. so ah definitely think that he was something of an avatar if nothing else i think within the context of this movie the movie does definitively say that there is a divine influence whether it be a god or a devil we'll see and i think it's interesting to say that because i'm watching and i'm still going i think no one interacts with the witch except the little boy
00:24:31
Speaker
Except bailey he's like the only one the baby and Caleb. Well, yeah, but maybe don't is it doesn't really interact. Well, and i I, I guess what I'm saying is like, we never see three people interact with the
Cinematography and Storytelling Techniques
00:24:43
Speaker
witch.
00:24:43
Speaker
We i I guess yes. ah The ending I still kind of think could be a mental break of her just like whatever. And she goes into the woods and sees this and isn't real.
00:24:56
Speaker
The thing. Yeah, the the witch smearing the baby on her is pretty jarring at the beginning. it's all It's pretty. it's It's a pretty definitive like this is what you're in. Yeah, this is real. It's out there.
00:25:11
Speaker
Be afraid of the woods. I was expecting more witch interaction with like killing and making stuff. If you're going to say the witch is real, I would rather see more of it, either more or less. I feel like this movie didn't quite strike that balance for me. I would like to see, ah and kind of as you're saying, would like to see like the witch appear at the edge of the woods and then catch glimpses of her. And I think that's why I think it's still kind of up in the air for me, even though, yeah, we definitely see them interact, but I'm like,
00:25:41
Speaker
Will Will never sees the witch never sees her at the edge of the woods. It's always the kids. It's always the kids. Mom and the dad never see anything.
00:25:53
Speaker
And each of the kids really kind of the twins don't mention the the baby obviously poof. But if Thomason had at least like seen the witch standing at the edge of the woods or something when the baby is taken,
00:26:08
Speaker
Yeah. I was looking at the tree line all across the thing, looking for any glimpse of a figure, hoping I would see something. it was I was the same way. i'm like I'm scanning the background of every shot. and And I think this movie is beautifully shot. I think the cinematography is incredible. I love the 1-6-6 aspect ratio as well.
00:26:26
Speaker
I thought it was absolutely gorgeous. But throughout the whole movie, I have my eyes on the woods waiting to see something. You know, a shadow, an almost sentry kind of like...
00:26:37
Speaker
Needle eyes in the dark somewhere back there. I blame parallel activity. yeah one The Paranormal Activity movies trained me to like watch the screen when nothing's happening.
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah. With vigor. was like. And A24 is so good at it. But I think this was also pretty early in A24's tenure. and you I mean, they've been making movies for years, but it was Ex Machina in 2015 and The Witch in 2016. Those kind of two bangers that really resonated with people to put a twenty four on the map as to where they are today. yep And I think if The Witch came out in 2018, 2019, I think we would have a little bit more of that.
00:27:18
Speaker
Even Robert Eggers has has said that he doesn't really like watching this movie anymore because even he feels like he hasn't, he didn't achieve everything he wanted to with it. And upon this what we rewatch, I feel that. I feel like there's more to be done.
00:27:35
Speaker
I would like to watch him revisit it. And what would he do now? What would he do now? Just do a do a director's cut version of it. That's go back and shoot some new scenes. Some yeah.
00:27:47
Speaker
Anya Taylor, Joy doesn't look quite as young anymore, but yeah, she's a little taller. I was shocked at how young she looked in. Yeah, she looked like a baby. i totally forgot.
00:27:58
Speaker
And she's saying the same age as me. She was 20 when they filmed this, maybe late 19. Yeah. yeah but She looked like a child. Yes, she did. She really had the baby fat in her cheek. Still, I was like, this is nothing like the girl from the menu, but yeah I can see on it I can see that's her.
00:28:15
Speaker
So story plot. Where are at on scores, guys? So that three.
00:28:22
Speaker
Gosh, I'm a four. I you know, I would probably lean in a three. I think it's good, but it could have been tighter.
00:28:33
Speaker
okay OK, like a tiger. Yeah. That is all right. I like not being 100% in agreement. All right. Character. How compelling is the characters arc in this film? We kind of already talked about it in the story, how each of these characters is kind of dealing with their own issues.
00:28:52
Speaker
hmm. ah This is one where I don't think.
00:28:59
Speaker
I don't know. I haven't put a ton of thought into it, but Thomason is that it's really her story, her and then the father would be secondary. ah But the father's pride from the beginning causes all the issues, including his own downfall. So he's a steady figure of.
00:29:21
Speaker
kind of a negative force because of his pride getting in the way. And we see how it impacts children and his wife
Comparison with Other Horror Directors
00:29:30
Speaker
and everybody. And ultimately, it kind of wraps back around to him that he's constantly fighting to be that, you know, that that father figure that protector of the family and every decision he makes is is a failure yes even right down to his own demise being killed by the wood that he spends the entire movie chopping in an attempt to you know poetry yes yeah he's he gets berated because the only thing he can do is chop wood yeah and then that's what gets him in the end yep so the it's everything he does is not a failure yeah
00:30:02
Speaker
Well, I'm pretty sure the gut wound from Black Phillip might have been fatal at that time, but the poetry of knocking into the wood that he spent the whole movie chopping definitely was not lost on me. I saw that and I was like, ooh, I like that touch.
00:30:16
Speaker
I like that touch. It was nice. Yeah. I also think... There's poetry in the crow pecking at the mother who is focused on her lost That is- I didn't like that. That was uncomfortable. That tough to watch, man. And then you see her the following morning lying in bed and there's just blood running down. And I'm just like, just stop.
00:30:38
Speaker
don't. I don't like this. that is one of those the imagery robert eggers is so good about using paintings to influence his films yes and the witch itself is based on puritanical paintings of and probably even older paintings of witches so i love that but there's something about that scene of the mother sitting in front of the fireplace with the crow on her lap that is haunting and I'm not quite sure I get it I'm not quite sure I understand the whole thing if it was it has a bit of a dreamlike quality except she wakes up with blood there but it is just it is a creepy painting right there on that screen for it's probably like what a full second before it cuts but it is enough so fast but it sticks with you yes you see it long enough yeah
00:31:31
Speaker
didn register It hits pretty, pretty hard, and I i love that for it. um But Thomason is the one who has the arc here where she kind of just I'm under the impression at the beginning that she wants to do everything to please her parents.
00:31:49
Speaker
She is trying to be the good daughter, but she is continually berated and torn down for not being good enough. And in the end, she just kind of gives up and becomes the very thing they always feared that she was.
00:32:05
Speaker
And that yeah I think that's equal parts cautionary tale and tragic character arc is, you know what? Well, you thought I was going to be this, so I guess I just will be. And Even it's sad.
00:32:22
Speaker
I think it's a sad character arc for her. I think that's why my heart breaks watching her like lose her entire family. The question i have that watching it this time, where do the twins go?
00:32:38
Speaker
I'm going to say that the the witch that dropped down in there and was like suckling from the goat teeth, I'm assuming before she turns around at them. took them i I'm going to say she took them. Yeah.
00:32:50
Speaker
Because they're all locked in there with Black Phillip. Yeah. And then we see the witch there. And then from that point on, we don't see the twins again. i didn't even think about that. i didn' I didn't even put two and two together because I think so much happens there in the third act of the movie that I completely forgot that we walked away from them and didn't get a definitive answer.
00:33:11
Speaker
Yeah, so that is one that that's another reason why I definitely think they brought the evil in because i think the evil takes them with them. And they go, they go with him and they just vanish. But that is probably that is an area that that I have reflected that in my story is they just kind of drop out of the movie. We don't get a clear answer. I wonder if there's a deleted scene that I didn't watch.
00:33:37
Speaker
um but they just they're all locked in there the witch shows up thomas and talks to black philip and the twins are gone like we't we just don't see twins again so yeah something broke out and you find her lying there when when they get up but that's right and like she's just laying there dead animals and who knows what the rest of the goat but yeah the kids are peaced out man so assuming maybe the turned them into animals soup oh i would i would take them in animals yeah that that would make sense that would check out okay i was just curious what your guys's thoughts were because that's that's where my brain was i was like where did the twin go on this um but i do think the character arc for thomason
00:34:25
Speaker
um I'm going to give it a three. Like I said, I think it's kind of the rebellious child story in modern day. It's the kid who's not fit in the mold. But i do think there's just a little bit missing as far as an arc or a big resolution at the end.
00:34:45
Speaker
even though you could argue that the ending is pretty significant, but I just... I think the ending is pretty empowering for her. Now, I'm not generally a fan of, of like, the the feminist empowerment thing. I think a lot of times the story is poorly done, but I do like the idea of a young woman being put down and then fighting her way back up, and I think...
00:35:08
Speaker
You start the movie, look at her face when they're being exiled. She is innocent and pure and confused by the whole situation. Then the whole movie, like you said, Tim, she's put down, kind of dragged through the mud and blamed for the disappearance of the baby, blamed for all of the evil that's going on, blamed for everything that's happened.
Narrative Complexity and Layers
00:35:30
Speaker
And when she does come to the end, when she finally kills her mother, It's obviously not a good thing, but you could see it as a moment of her breaking free, killing that maternal figure, and becoming the the kind of head of the house at that point. oh And then she makes the decision to go into the woods and join the coven and to become one of the witches.
00:35:50
Speaker
it's i think it's a full uphill arc for her to become the most powerful version of what Thomason ever could be. she's now That is an interesting... That's an interesting perspective. I didn't think about it as her breaking free of their oppression, basically, holding her back.
00:36:10
Speaker
It's all uphill for her at this point. I mean, it's in yeah in a demonic way. Maybe not the best way to go but it's certainly better than where she was, at least from self-empowerment perspective.
00:36:23
Speaker
Nobody can put her down now. Yeah, that that is a that is a good point. I think in that point i love but in that case, I would have to give it at at least a four, maybe even a five.
00:36:37
Speaker
I'd give it a five.
00:36:40
Speaker
I'm coming up to a four because you you made a compelling you made a compound case there. I'm also at a four as well. I like that you know even though she tried her best, she finally got the point where she said, fuck it, I've had enough.
00:36:53
Speaker
I'm just going to go and be what you were starting to think I was. And so whatever, dude. And I think that was awesome. I agree with you. I think she kicked ass on that part. Just been like, fuck it. I've I've I just had to kill my mom. My dad's dead.
00:37:06
Speaker
These two little bastards appeared. My brother gave into his lust with a weird witch lady and had like ah weird like religious orgasm death as he's like freaking out while they're laying and kids are like saying weird shit and do whatever little bastard shit they're doing. And any of the parents are freaking out on Thomas and and she's like just trying to figure out what the fuck to do.
00:37:26
Speaker
So like she doesn't do they're like, get out here. She's like, fine. Screw you guys. Like, um' going home but i'm already here ah i don't And it's hell. So ah yeah that's why I give a four. She's different head to me.
00:37:38
Speaker
The brother's death, I actually think is very good. That scene gave me chills this time. It's pretty intense. It was creepy as hell.
00:37:50
Speaker
It parallels Garden of Eden thing. you know Eve took a bite of the apple, which you know created original sin. And here he is puking up the apple because of his sins. Yeah.
00:38:01
Speaker
Oh, again. that is what Eggers is so good at the poetry in his storytelling, the little bits of influence that he puts in. And I love that in all of it, but yeah, that scene also just when the twins start convulsing too, and I'm like, these two did it. These two brought it in. That's deeply connected. They're not just, they're not just jerking around, but his, you mentioned his like orgasmic death.
00:38:30
Speaker
It was, fun it was weird. Yeah. He's just like elated and happy and then gone. And it's chilling. It is chilling. It is so good.
00:38:42
Speaker
it's It's a full circle. His sin is lust and his death is almost pleasurable. Yeah. It's good stuff. I enjoy it a lot. I enjoy it a lot.
00:38:55
Speaker
I'm surprised parents didn't yank the two little
Artistic Choices in Eggers' Direction
00:38:58
Speaker
kids up and be like, what are you doing? You know, just scare them out of their shit. i think Well, because they they started blaming Thomason. It's her. what yeah Damn deflection. They were like, it's her. She told her she's the witch. Even though that little girl was definitely the first one to come in there and be like, it was the witch.
00:39:17
Speaker
And then Thomason was like, well, that's me. But we're on to music and sound design. I watched Thomason kill her mom. Oh, yep. That's a rough scene.
00:39:29
Speaker
We're on to music and sound design. Music composed by Mark Corvin, who has done The Witch, The Lighthouse. He did The Black Phone. so love The Black Phone. Peripheral TV series.
00:39:41
Speaker
I love The Black Phone as well. um I don't know about Black Phone 2. I haven't seen that at all. I have more faith in that than Megan 2.0. I just saw the trailer for that. Black Phone 2.
00:39:56
Speaker
I love Megan, but those trailers for Megan 2.0 have me nervous.
00:40:04
Speaker
The first black phone was just so good. Yeah. Well, and that is.
00:40:14
Speaker
I can't think of his name right now. For the director. for No, the writer. It's Stephen King's son. Oh, oh, oh. um but for blacksh oh Joe Hill.
00:40:26
Speaker
Joe Hill. Yep. yeah Joe Hill, Stephen King's son, wrote... it It's based on a short story. It's an excellent, excellent movie. It's not... It's horror-adjacent, but it's not a scary film. It's an intense film.
00:40:42
Speaker
yeah but I mean, if you're afraid of children being kidnapped, it's terrifying. Yeah, right. And even Hawk was insane in that. Insanely good. It's kind of like a r rated episode of. um God.
00:40:58
Speaker
Criminal Minds, that's it. Yeah, kind of an R rated episode of Criminal Minds. Yeah, it's it's good stuff, though. But yeah, ah Mark Corbin did the music for The Witch and hasn't really done a whole whole big chunk of movies, but has worked on most of Eggers films.
00:41:18
Speaker
a
00:41:21
Speaker
I don't know a whole lot about the score. The score doesn't really strike a big chord with me. i just think the sound design, it's well done in this film. It's just the best way that I could describe it is it's wallpaper.
00:41:34
Speaker
It works perfectly for this film, but it's not a score that you could listen to isolated. i would never throw this on. um Unlike something like hereditary, which I think you know is also you know, a wallpaper score, but there are a handful of tracks in there that have absolutely make it into my Halloween playlist, yeah which doesn't get there.
00:41:55
Speaker
Some of the like chanting, howling, which sounds that happen in the score, they work for the scenes that they're at They're not something, not something you want to listen to alone. Yeah.
00:42:06
Speaker
No, I like the track listing. I would just like the name of the tracks. I haven't even looked at them. Yeah, dude, like the names are very indicative to what scene it's with. You know, Hair in the Woods, I Am the Witch Mercy, Fosser the Children, Caleb is Lost, Caleb's Seduction, Caleb's Death.
00:42:22
Speaker
So kind of spoilers. kind of fashion The and the Mayhem. You know, I love the names for this stuff. They definitely write it on the of that. I hate it when movies do that, when they release their track listing and the titles kind of give it away. Remember when The Phantom Menace did that and they released Qui-Gon's Death?
00:42:38
Speaker
la Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, boy. bet that pissed a lot of people off. That's why i even stopped looking because they released the music before. And there have been a couple times that I'm like, oh, I want to check out this soundtrack before the movie even drops.
00:42:54
Speaker
But I don't want to go look at the track list. I don't want to see that. The last time I looked at a track listing when it released for a movie was Halloween ends. And I got so hung up on the procession that I started trying to dissect the plot of the movie before it came out. And i was like, I can't do this again.
00:43:11
Speaker
You're ruining in the movies.
00:43:15
Speaker
Yeah, I can't focus on it that hard. ah So music and sound design, I'm just giving it three. It's good. Yeah, does a really good job at what it needs to, but it's not astoundingly remarkable.
00:43:27
Speaker
Mm hmm. Agreed. I'm a three as well. it' just ah it It does its job in accenting everything the way it's supposed to. And that's that. yeah I'm right there with you. know Three.
00:43:39
Speaker
All right. So the editing and special effects for this film. um
00:43:46
Speaker
This is an area that I hate. I like the editing for this one. you hit The scenes in the forest, all the forest shots and back and forth. I loved how they did that.
00:43:57
Speaker
It's like long shots of just those views looking deep into the woods, seeing between the trees. And even when like where there's people and the scenes when there's not people, the way they use the wideness and like the depth of the shot for some of those places in the woods, man. Loved it. Yeah. i Well, that goes down to the cinematography as well, which I keep... I had it pulled up here. I didn't want to have to look it up.
00:44:19
Speaker
Jaren Blasik. Blasik was the cinematographer of the film. and incredible. I thought it was for a $4 million dollars budget for being that cheap. It is one of the most beautiful films released in 2016.
00:44:32
Speaker
And a lot of it is that depth of field. You feel how far those woods go and how alone and isolated they are. Yeah. So what what I mean by like, I hate editing and special effects for this is i hate saying a movie is pretty near flawless when it comes to editing and special effects.
00:44:50
Speaker
Yeah. but I would be hard pressed to come in and be like, ah, the cuts in this are rough or that one scene. i can't really do that because it is so well put together and it is so tightly constructed that the special effects, I mean, the special effects in this movie are some deaths.
00:45:11
Speaker
Yeah. and they're so practically done and so well shot that there is zero question for me going into it and being like, oh yeah, that that was a prop. Like don't doesn't even matter.
00:45:25
Speaker
Doesn't even know. Nothing stands out as being anything less than real. Exactly. And it is so tightly done. And I will say between the editing, the direction and the cinematography kind of combining those, I usually put that in direction, but I noted I'm going to say it in editing this time was the beginning of the movie is a lot of static,
Cultural Impact and Influence on A24
00:45:47
Speaker
fairly quick shots.
00:45:51
Speaker
And as the things get crazier, the camera starts to loosen up and move. And I, I think that was an incredible choice to just construct it that way. And it's not something you, the casual moviegoers going to notice, but it is something that adds to the experience, whether you realize it or not, you're getting a lot of kind of fairly quick static, minimal movement of the camera at the beginning, two scenes like Thomas and killing her mom, where it is prolonged take.
00:46:28
Speaker
with camera movement it's almost like the camera comes to life and he's like the evil itself yes sam raimi for the witch can we can we go back to the evil dead and say that without that schlock fest we wouldn't have the witch at least we don't have the camera running through the woods for this movie be behind you little behind the boys yeah
00:46:52
Speaker
yeah yeah but i do i think i think this area is particularly excellent for this film yeah i can't think of a single shot that didn't work for me yep i'm a five back to like you you were talking about how the the vast majority of this movie seems like it was kind of inspired by paintings i mean that goes right into the editing i think the framing of every shot it's so meticulous that i I got nothing negative to say, but I think it was insanely well-crafted.
00:47:28
Speaker
And that's something Eggers does in all of his films. And this was the first to kind of put them on the map and make that known. The lighthouse has some incredible scenes that are perfected it with the lighthouse. And I haven't not to say that I haven't been impressed with even his work in the Northman, which I did not like and Nosferatu, which I enjoy.
00:47:49
Speaker
But I think he peaked with the lighthouse and the lighthouse had had the same cinematographer on it. He only worked with him on these first two movies and excellent. It's the best part of the movie.
00:48:01
Speaker
Alright. Yeah. As far as special effects go, i still like the the best part of it, the special effects was the very end when the witches start to float off the ground and then she eventually joins them and you get that shot from overhead where she's like, oh. Yeah.
00:48:18
Speaker
I like that when they start floating, it's pretty subtle. They don't make a big deal out of it. i think subtlety is something that is completely lost in modern day horror. Everything has to be so big and bombastic and going at the screen, but it's it's the little things. It's the shadows. It's the creaks that really stick with you.
00:48:35
Speaker
I I'd agree. And i I think that's something well, like you you said, when she just starts to levitate and just the camera just slowly lifts and you only notice because the trees behind her are moving.
00:48:47
Speaker
I'm like, that is sharp. That is really well done. ah It's a nice it's an interesting choice. from a director's perspective to do it that way instead of to show a wider shot. And but I love it.
00:49:02
Speaker
And I think that is also i think that's also why a lot of Eggers films don't always land with the audience. Like a lot of people didn't love Nosferatu. I loved Nosferatu because it's just a gothic love story and it is dripping in atmosphere and those creeks and those shadows and those little things that are just Like, let me just live in that. It's so good. i so Was I terrified? No. I was for auto you on the show i wasn't terrified.
00:49:34
Speaker
Yeah, we did a New Year's special for it. Did you? i gotta check that one out. i i have I have feelings on Nosferatu. I've only seen the movie once, so I really don't feel confident going too deep into it. But yeah, I think it's his most Hollywood movie.
00:49:52
Speaker
i could I could see that. I could see that for sure. i also think it was kind of the one I expected him to flop on if I'm on it because it had so much pressure behind it.
00:50:04
Speaker
I think a lot of people think he did flop it. I would agree. And lot of people did think he flopped. I also... He gave me kind of what I wanted. It was creepy.
00:50:17
Speaker
It was atmosphere, and I want atmosphere. So i was i was happy. i do need to see it again. But editing special effects? five Five for me.
00:50:28
Speaker
I'm at a three. Five across the board. No, you gave it a three. Yeah, I gave her three. or and You gave it a three? I liked it a lot. Special effects wasn't much there for me. I liked the part, set i like I liked the part at the end.
00:50:39
Speaker
But otherwise, I just think it was good.
00:50:43
Speaker
Okay. Okay. there That's fair. All right. So the script, this is the one
Debating Entertainment Value and Rewatchability
00:50:50
Speaker
that I kind of expect scores to be all over the place. um This is another example for me that the amount of research and homework that goes into writing the script makes it hard for me to tear it down too much but like i said earlier i do think this script is a barrier for a lot of people in appreciating this movie or even understanding this movie yeah i'm watching it with my wife who who enjoys this movie but she said the first time she saw it she didn't see it with subtitles and she had no idea what was going on no clue it's couldn't challenging at times especially with ralph innocent's voice being as deep as it is
00:51:32
Speaker
Sometimes it's difficult for the microphone to pick him up. Even in, he was in Chernobyl, which is not, you know, period dialogue at all. It's it's pretty normal.
00:51:44
Speaker
And even that, there are times when you've got to really hone in and listen to him because he is just gravel on the mic. I love it. I love it. I definitely know what you're saying. yeah Yep.
00:51:56
Speaker
I give kudos to the actors for for being able to say those lines, having to get that having to speak like that. Dude, that would annoy me if I were an actor having to talk like that through an entire film. Especially considering so many most of the cast were children. I mean, how good were those twins?
00:52:12
Speaker
Did at any point you not believe that they were authentic children from the sixteen hundreds I mean, they were fantastic. Yeah, excellent. Excellent. yeah So like I said, everyone with the lines and how it's written, with the type of language for the time, dude, that that like so that impressed me a bit.
00:52:29
Speaker
so that's what i'm I'm torn on how to score score this one, to be honest, because on the one hand, it's it's a five for its accuracy and the the actor's ability to deliver the lines. But on the other hand, makes it difficult to watch.
00:52:43
Speaker
This is not something you can casually just put on. You've got to really zero in. Yeah. So here here, ah if this helps you out, I'm judging the script alone, not how it's perceived.
00:52:56
Speaker
So when I get to when I get to the cultural significance, that's where I come in and be like, yeah, this kind of rubs some people the wrong way for that very reason. Some people can't get into it. So that's where, cause I'm going to tell the script, I think is a five pulled from journals and historical documents of the time, the amount of research and dedication that goes into, i mean, you, somebody here, try to write a historically accurate or mostly accurate movie script in teen hundreds dialogue.
00:53:32
Speaker
I'm going to give up. I tried when I was in high school, I took some writing classes and one of my things was we had to write a story that was inspired by The Crucible. So I did attempt to write in this time period.
00:53:44
Speaker
And needless to say, it was one of my least favorite things I have ever written. It was so hard. Exactly. And that kind of dedication is where I have to come in and say, this is a five.
00:54:00
Speaker
So i'm not I'm not judging it on if it's successful or if it resonated on that aspect. I'm giving the result.
00:54:11
Speaker
I guess that's I'm not judging the results. I'm judging the script itself. And the script would have been challenging to write, but I also think there's some beautiful... old English type poetry in some of these lines.
00:54:25
Speaker
Yeah, that just the way people spoke then was like, I love William says corruption. Thou art my father at one point. and I'm like, that's I love that. It's a beautiful line.
00:54:38
Speaker
ah The way Black Phillip speaks, it's quoted a lot, but and it's kind of i think that deliciously is a little cheesy, but that whole segment.
00:54:50
Speaker
yeah but effective oh it but now i can't help but think about what's that like to live mass the taco bell uh i think of that but that whole exchange is actually very good what does that want what's that like the taste of butter you know a pretty dress it's that it's so good.
00:55:18
Speaker
So I'm a five on this. I think there's a beautiful poetry to it and the challenge of writing it as accurately as they could is not easy. So yeah, the poetry aspect that you talk about, man, I feel a lot of that with Caleb, like before he dies, when he's like going straight mental, um, I'm looking here is he's cast the light of countenance upon me, spread over me the lap of thy love.
00:55:45
Speaker
Wash me in the ever-flowing fountains of thy blood. Holy Thine I am, my sweet Lord Jesus. My Lord, my love, kiss me with the kisses of thy mouth. How lovely art thou. Thy embrace, my Lord, my Lord, my love, my soul salvation, take me to thy lap.
00:55:57
Speaker
You know, that it's like some old school religious kind of poetry yeah but that he's spouting out before he has this weird like death orgasm. The whole script almost feels like a Bible on its own.
00:56:11
Speaker
Yeah. yeah i guess I guess in that regard with with with the you know the caveat and and separating the script and the cultural significance, I guess I can't give it anything less than a five because I agree with you completely. it is It's remarkable.
00:56:26
Speaker
Just a little hard on the ears. It's I, I agree completely. I i don't think, don't think any of us disagree on, on that note. So the acting, we go ahead and get my score.
00:56:37
Speaker
Uh, for script, I was at a for four, four. Yeah. Four on spring. Okay. Okay. Fair. but and it was hard to follow with some of that stuff for the dialogue the way it's written but otherwise it's great i can get it can it can be beautifully written but also sometimes dancing around in that old english it could be a little like kind of trying to backtrack like what did you just say i mean it's it's very much like why some people just don't appreciate shakespeare you know the way it's written is hard to follow sometimes um the acting we mentioned the delivery of these lines
00:57:14
Speaker
ten
00:57:17
Speaker
10. They were phenomenal. I mean, again, and you gotta go back to the kids. I am blown away at how fantastic those kids were in this. it's It is next to impossible to get good kid actors in any movie.
00:57:28
Speaker
And Eggers got two young kids, a teenager, that could work alongside Ralph Inneson, who is one of the most like solidly built performers I have ever seen.
00:57:42
Speaker
And I cannot wait to see him as Galactus. I have nothing bad to say about the acting at all. I have nothing bad to say. Yeah. I'll just go ahead and say I'm um'm five on it.
00:57:54
Speaker
They all delivered quite well. Yeah. Yeah. I usually think children are the downfall of movies. um They're the most hit or miss. They're either good or terrible.
00:58:07
Speaker
It's very rare that they're excellent. yeah These children are excellent. They're awesome. And have twins gone on to do anything else. I don't recall seeing them in anything in the last 10 years.
00:58:21
Speaker
I'm going look real quick. But the other thing that always this kind of blows my mind is I forget that this is Anya Taylor-Joy's first film. Didn't seem like it.
00:58:34
Speaker
No, she hit ground running. was so... How did they find her? Like, where was she before that? It's incredible because before we ah we got on here, I was looking at her IMDb and yeah, she started with The Witch, then went on to Morgan.
00:58:52
Speaker
And I remember when Morgan came out, people were hyping it up because of her more than anything else. They were like, oh, it's Anya Taylor-Joy's next movie. like this girl did one movie before it and in the very next year she had i mean not her biggest now but i mean for a while she was in split which was like the breakout of breakouts i'm like this girl went from one two three punch to now furiosa and god knows what else the menu like tim mentioned earlier yeah yeah then there's one where she was like in which she was the chess player the queen's gambit yeah yeah
00:59:28
Speaker
And then she's supposed to have a big role coming up in the next Doom chapter as well. Oh, cool. yeah Nice. Yeah. Yeah, for the kids, Jonas, the kid that played Jonas, he's only done the witch and then the little girl that played Mercy. She did like a couple things before this and then one other thing called Eve in like 2016. They were scarred.
00:59:50
Speaker
Yeah. But they're all quite... quite excellent the mother is a great performance I mean we're just gonna keep they're all real good so it's it's a five it's a five on the acting there's no flaws here straight up so the direction category
01:00:12
Speaker
i already mentioned my praise I put it with the editing of I and this is how I end up scoring all of Eggers films I don't necessarily appreciate them the first time.
01:00:24
Speaker
And then they grew on me. And I think a lot of that is because of the research that he does going into can be kind of difficult at first.
01:00:37
Speaker
And then... soel Yes. Sorry. You're okay. And then the more... um The more you get into it, the more you start to catch those little layers and the elements that surface.
01:00:52
Speaker
And this is one of those. The historical accuracy feels borderline documentary reading that he made sure the costumes were historically like made correctly.
01:01:07
Speaker
is awesome, but he does that kind of, that's the level of commitment to his filmmaking that we see in everything he does. And I appreciate that a lot.
01:01:18
Speaker
And so that is him being the director, pulling everything in the script, the sets, the costumes, the research to help tell his story that it becomes hard for me to dock him Even if I don't love the movie, he put in way more work than some other.
01:01:41
Speaker
So I mentioned before this, I watched fear street, Netflix's fear street, 1666 the night before I watched the witch same time period, same kind of witch trial type situation. That's gotta be one, one heck of a double feature right there.
01:01:59
Speaker
And that's why it's like, i enjoy both, but one of them is clearly like a young adult approach. Yeah. The other one is a piece of art.
01:02:12
Speaker
You know, it is beautiful. Not saying the other one's not art, but this is like, This is like a museum painting art versus somebody's Tumblr profile or like that's that's the difference.
01:02:27
Speaker
So i have a hard time going anything less than five on direction. And the key is selling point from not just the research and dedication that goes into making it as historically accurate as possible.
01:02:41
Speaker
But I also mentioned just the choice in telling the story from quick static shots at the beginning. to kind of opening up the camera work at the end is meaning not just are the sets and the script and all of that historically accurate.
01:02:57
Speaker
There was dedication that went into the camera placement and the shots and the angles and how to tell this story in a way that will resonate more without being in the audience's face flashy or anything like that. And i have to appreciate that.
01:03:16
Speaker
Yeah. i think i i can't my soapbox i can't knock any of the skill that eggers put into which is why i found it fascinating when i read the guardian article the other day where eggers talked about how he can't even watch this movie and he's gone on record to say that he's not happy with it because it's not everything he wanted it to be My biggest takeaway from it is just simply that it's beautifully done, but I don't find it entertaining. There are scenes I've gushed about already that are fantastic and they're incredibly well made, but as a 90-minute feature, this thing feels closer to two, two and a half hours for me. I think just the the pacing... Oh, wow.
01:03:58
Speaker
Yeah, and and i do think it is I didn't necessarily feel that the first two times I saw the movie. I saw it twice in 2016, and then the third time was just today, nine years later.
01:04:11
Speaker
i just i could not believe how bored I was for the majority of the film.
01:04:19
Speaker
don't like saying that. think that's fair. no did I think that's fair. Yeah. Do you do decimals on your ratings? Can I do a 2.5? We do. We do. I got to go smack down in the middle because because on the one half, like I said, it is incredibly well made, but films are meant to be entertainment, whether they're tragic or joyful. And I simply was not entertained for the vast majority of the film while I do still appreciate the poetic beauty of it.
01:04:51
Speaker
Okay. That's cool. Oh, Are you keeping track of your score, Adam? I was not. Was I supposed to?
01:05:02
Speaker
i'll send you I'll send you the link real quick. okay I'll send you the link. Yeah, yeah. I just noticed it was not in our our results. so It's been a crazy week for me. i I'll tell you more after we stop recording.
01:05:17
Speaker
but That's okay. That is okay. Here, let me send it to you. But Jonathan, go ahead and
01:05:26
Speaker
Oh yeah, I'm a four on direction.
01:05:30
Speaker
I like the they laid everything out and the way they shoot the scenes.
01:05:36
Speaker
I'm not, I'm a horrible director. I think I said more about direction than the earlier categories when I was talking about other stuff. i am I am a five when it comes to this one. i just...
01:05:48
Speaker
what is so interesting for me doing this now is i would not consider myself i wasn't a big eggers fan and i know even when we did the nosferatu episode um one of the few comments we get on our youtube one of them was like eggers equals hard pass and um that's how we rub somebody some people aren't aggers fans and i can understand it because at one point wasn't like you said adam you kind of have to devote yourself to the experience you you have to be on board before the opening credits and start and i am now at the point in my life where i don't like
01:06:39
Speaker
Netflix is fear street series is passive entertainment. It's going to go on in the background while I do something else. But I am now at the point where I think I want to devote time to appreciate art, whether it be listening to an album on vinyl. I'm not an audiophile. I don't think it sounds better, but it is the process of choosing it, cleaning it, placing it on the player. Yeah, I'm a cassette tape guy.
01:07:06
Speaker
It is seeking it out intentionally to experience. And I'm now at that point in my life where I appreciate those things. And I think that's where Eggers is scratching that itch.
01:07:17
Speaker
It is something i seek out to experience. It is not... Definitely not something that you can or should be scrolling your phone out while you're watching because you are not going to get it.
01:07:30
Speaker
It's not going to resonate with you. You're going to miss it. And that's fine. That's fine. Hollywood. Hollywood needs filmmakers like Eggers, and there are plenty of others like him, but We've seen a lot of Netflix movies coming out lately that are designed to be played in the background. Very dialogue heavy, very let me explain to you what's going on.
01:07:53
Speaker
Yes. I know a lot of people accuse the electric state of doing that. And then you have. I watched that the other day, actually. and i I still haven't seen it.
01:08:04
Speaker
I haven't seen and I don't know if I ever will, because I think I like myself a little too much. um not a great one for chris pratt and you know what's her face from stranger millie bobby brown yeah millie bobby yeah like Can't say this was really a significant like role for either of them for that movie.
01:08:24
Speaker
The most exciting thing about that movie to me is that Mr. Peanut is in it. Yeah. yeah i did see That was kind of cool. I did see that Disney should renegotiate their contracts with the Russo brothers after the Electric State for their upcoming films. I don't hold against them.
01:08:40
Speaker
I don't hold it against them one bit. that's that's the importance of of a good producer right there feige can reel them in whoever whoever was overseeing them in netflix didn't know what they were doing no it was oh you did infinity war do do whatever you want and yeah here's 300 million dollars for a movie that we're gonna let people watch for free yeah yeah all right so i gave my did i give my
01:09:13
Speaker
But you say it again if you want. I don't think it's my direction was five. My direction was five.
01:09:21
Speaker
But that takes us then that takes us then to the it factor, our cultural significance, how this resonated with the crowd.
01:09:32
Speaker
So I will I've been thinking about this one and I will say this is where I'm going to dock it one because it is a difficult film to get into. However, like we have also stated earlier, this movie and Ex Machina put a two four on the map.
01:09:54
Speaker
Like the those two movies, I remember when this came out, everybody was talking about it. I ah remember the conversation about it. The Black Phillip memes were crazy.
01:10:07
Speaker
I don't recall any of that. Really? It was just one to that goat. and And yeah, this this movie changed a 24 entirely.
01:10:19
Speaker
I will tell you this. I will always be grateful to the witch and X. I mean, i love X Machina, but I will always be grateful to the witch because it's the reason why I have this. Why we have to talk to me right now.
01:10:31
Speaker
but Is that your favorite of the recent? Oh, in the last few years? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Talk to me. Okay. Blow me away. Yeah. I saw a bit of that in like the smallest clips. haven't watched the whole thing.
01:10:44
Speaker
It's so good. It looks intense. I am curious. I'm curious for their new one. am cautiously optimistic. Which out at the time that this will be released. Yeah. It's out at the time that this will be released, but one during recording, it is coming out next weekend.
01:11:01
Speaker
yeah Is it that soon? I think it's soon. I've already seen some people giving spoiler free reviews. Okay. Okay. So, but yeah, um this movie was significantly culturally. I think it changed.
01:11:22
Speaker
I think it changed this and hereditary kind of changed the way a lot of horror went for the next decade. Yeah. It, I think it altered the course of what was being made.
01:11:33
Speaker
for the big screen yeah and I have to give it credit for that I have to this movie is the reason Eggers is a fairly well-known director I didn't hear much talk about the lighthouse I did not I heard talk about it but not as much as the witch The biggest thing to come out of The Lighthouse was that's the farting Willem Dafoe movie. That was the biggest thing that came out of that.
01:12:00
Speaker
Which is unfortunate because The Lighthouse, so I mean, I said it already, it's, I think, his best movie. I believe The Lighthouse was even my number one movie of 2019 entirely. i would not watch it again. Okay. It's not waiting one of my favorite movies of the 2010s. It's so good. but My wife will frequently quote...
01:12:22
Speaker
the why just build your beans. she frequently
01:12:30
Speaker
But yeah, I so ah but I do think the cultural conversation was larger around the witch. um
01:12:41
Speaker
I think ah part of me wants to say hereditary.
01:12:49
Speaker
Was hereditary? That was an eight to four, wasn't it?
01:12:56
Speaker
and seen it still I can't reach it from where I'm at. i can't I'll double check. But I want to say that ah Hereditary might not have been but as successful if it hadn't a had some movies like this before it. And that that could be different. The marketing behind Hereditary was excellent comparing it to The Exorcist and This Generation, This Exorcist.
01:13:22
Speaker
accurate um it was a 24. yeah so i think this time period of movies altered the trajectory of horror for the next 10 years and i think we're starting to see it gave us what what you could probably call like the thinking person's horror the the more uh there's an actual term for it i can't remember what it is elevated horror elevated horror that's it yeah yep because this was in the midst of the conjuring which I like the conjuring movies but those are there goes of popcorn horror those are they're funny for everybody we got the which we got hereditary we got a couple other ones mainly coming from 24 that were in that elevated horror
01:14:10
Speaker
wayne Yeah, it's the I always say if you've listened to the show enough, you always hear me say the horror hits two categories, the pure entertainment Friday, 13th Nightmare on Elm Street, those great stuff.
01:14:23
Speaker
And then the movies that get under your skin. And those are the two types of successful horror. You have to do one or both. be successful and this was the big start of those movies that kind of get under your skin and don't just exist for pure entertainment there's some kind of story or message or purpose for the film and it's probably going to mess you up while you're watching it those films and
01:14:59
Speaker
And I think this one kind of kickstarted it. I think this movie was a significant... starter to that. Yeah, that this combined with I think It Comes at Night and It Follows as well. It was kind of that that yeah triple whammy because we had It Comes at Night in I believe 2014, It Follows in 15 and then The Witch in 16 and it was that kind of building and building and building but The Witch was the one out of all of those that really kind of hooked everybody to be like, I think we're seeing a boom in in new horror.
01:15:33
Speaker
And it gave us the opportunities to get great things like hereditary or or even talk to me and and so many things beyond. Yeah, I agree.
01:15:44
Speaker
You changed my rating on this. I was going to give it a one based on the dialogue alone, but now I'm breaking it down. like I can't, I have to give it like at least a four.
01:15:56
Speaker
Well, you guys have far, far more elaborate thoughts on it than I. Yeah, I agree. yeah i didn't really think much in the way of significance or any kind of cultural impact to me. It was just a, another witch oriented film. Um, yeah, I, I just didn't really get much of a vibe or anything for it. Like I gave it a two.
01:16:19
Speaker
Okay. I, I docked at the one point for the dialogue. I'm at a four. I'll settle at a four.
01:16:29
Speaker
Okay. Like said, you guys are like way more elaborate. I'm sitting here thinking and like, damn, guys are like in depth with it. And like, you know a lot more about what's going on with films or do these films with these companies that I do. So I feel kind of like stupid now because like they do all this stuff. But like, no, I think I just have you about it you i just had a lot more free time to not be productive.
01:16:49
Speaker
So I paid a lot more attention to what was happening on Twitter. Okay. I think this was the time period that I started paying attention to, uh, newer studios and newer directors. Cause before this, I was like, I loved, um,
01:17:08
Speaker
i grew up on hitchcock films i grew up on vincent price movies those are what i grew up on and i kind of had a disdain for anything made after 1975 and this like the conjuring movies are actually what kind of brought me back in and so those were a gateway because i really appreciated the craft in those films james wan is a good director ah I really appreciate the craft in those films. And then these movies started coming out and I was like, wait a second.
01:17:40
Speaker
Okay. Okay. There's a whole new layer of yes people. yeah I think I really appreciate, especially what a 24 does and and what we get with like a Robert Eggers is I grew up watching a lot of like the low budget underground horror movies of the eighties.
01:17:58
Speaker
the people that had no money but just wanted to tell a story and i appreciate a twenty four gets those people and says hey instead of making you know brain damage frank cannon lauder for you know four thousand dollars eggers here's four million go tell your story it's so easy to have gotten the same movie 20 years earlier way worse yep i i would agree that's one of the things i love A24.
01:18:27
Speaker
So A24. Neon is really putting and like Neons taken off. Yes, I agree. yeah They were the monkey. Yeah, I yeah i believe so.
01:18:40
Speaker
Did they also so they probably also did um long legs. I feel like they did. Yeah, ah hell of a summer. yeah i I need to see hell of a summer. I want to see that one.
01:18:53
Speaker
I yeah, that one sounds interesting. Yeah, that one is on my list. All right. So this brings us to the. How entertained were you? So this is the one.
01:19:07
Speaker
This is the one that. I expect those numbers on guys. I'll give you a number. Yeah. Yeah. I'll give you a single syllable.
01:19:23
Speaker
it's a one for me i just uh i appreciate i don't i don't vibe with it i i'm not entertained by it i appreciate it i didn't have fun
01:19:37
Speaker
okay okay no i think that's that's accurate dive into it i mean the the biggest thing for me is like i said going going back to the pacing of the film why Why is this 92 minute feature feeling like it took me all afternoon to watch?
01:19:53
Speaker
i can I can enjoy the structure of every scene. And I think if you chop it up into individual moments, I have no problem with any scene. There's no point where I think they need to shave anything down, but there is a lot of lingering on the poetic kind of dissonance that these people have and and and the separation that they're they're kind of forming between each other when when they're pushing Thomason away or when Thomason is arguing with the twins, there's just this this like go away feeling that kind of makes me sit back and go like, I want to go away.
01:20:27
Speaker
I don't want to be here. it yeah I just think that's interesting because you jumped on this episode so quickly when we posted it I've got so much shit to talk about this I did I promise you I did and then I rewatched it and went oh no i have nothing i felt so bad i was sitting there watching the clock and I'm like ah think Adam think what is there what did you want to say
01:21:03
Speaker
Oh, that is okay. I've at least done something entertaining here. It's all okay. No, i I love having the different opinions. i love having it. So we used to my original co-host and I used to get in like straight up fights and arguments on episodes about how he was wrong. i was wrong. You're watching it like an idiot. Yeah. I like when when you texted me and they were like, no, no, it's okay. We don't argue, you argue. you And I'm like, no, I'm not going to be like aggressive. But yeah, I think we're on different pages.
01:21:35
Speaker
the The whole point is to celebrate how we all see it differently. So it's not going to resonate with everybody. And I get that. Jonathan, you want to give yours your kind of final thought?
01:21:49
Speaker
I enjoyed the film for the most part, you know, um, I like the story, how it went, how they shot the whole thing, the way it was all sequenced, how nutty people got and how weird they got in their paranoia. um But like I said, it's still kind of mild as far as like a witch film goes for me in a way. i i don't know if that makes much sense. But ah overall, entertainment, man, I am sitting at a seven.
01:22:13
Speaker
I wouldn't mind maybe watching it again someday, but probably not for a while. But it's still something I feel like I recommend people be like, hey, check it out at least once. Yeah. Yeah, I do think your niche on this one, which this is going to be an excellent example of our average coming together because we saw the way people view things differently and tell you if it works in a crowd.
01:22:38
Speaker
and And this is going to not always work in a crowd. This is a difficult movie for a group of people to sit down and enjoy.
01:22:51
Speaker
It is a movie for a specific kind of person or couple of people to sit down and enjoy. So for me,
01:23:01
Speaker
I love history one. So I nerd out about the historical stuff in this film. ah This I. This is hard, but on the list of folk horror, I don't necessarily like folk horror.
01:23:19
Speaker
Our people on Instagram voted that the theme this year was full core. So here we are talking about full horror movie. Uh huh. They're not my favorite. They are my wife's favorite. So I've actually seen quite a few of them.
01:23:33
Speaker
But This is one of my favorite folk horror movies because it feels like a Brothers Grimm story, that kind of old fairy tale story, stay out of the woods. It feels like an R-rated, realistic version of that on screen.
01:23:51
Speaker
we And so i love that. We saw just a couple years after this, ah I think it was Oz Perkins did Gretel and and Hansel.
01:24:04
Speaker
um And I was thinking about that a lot doing this rewatch. Like I know The Witch came out first, but I'm watching it and I'm like, there's a lot of similarities between Gretel and Hansel and this movie where I feel like they would make that a good double feature if you like this. Okay.
01:24:19
Speaker
i need to i need to give that one a try i have not i only recently realized that it was is oz perkins and now i want to go back and watch it i only watched it because it was awesome i am actually this may surprise you you may not see this coming but i didn't like it
01:24:38
Speaker
uh i am actually i'm at an eight on this one it's not a ten this is not a movie i want to put on again immediately this is and it comes down again because like we said this is something you have to pay attention to it is not a background movie it is a movie that you most likely need subtitles on if you're not familiar with it to fully follow the story so it has some things working against it but i quite enjoy
01:25:11
Speaker
this film and i'm surprised because i don't think i enjoyed it this much last time i watched it so it could also just be that period of my life that i'm in at the moment that i'm like yeah i've really enjoyed this movie right now so and i found that too uh we're talking midsummer tomorrow um I found the same same situation there. I didn't enjoy it as much the first time and I enjoyed it quite a bit more a second time.
01:25:39
Speaker
So maybe that's what I'm learning with whole with a full core movies. I got to sit on them a little bit and watch them more. But it's just been you got the director for years and I have yet to watch it.
01:25:51
Speaker
I am so scared to watch this because I don't want to hate it. h It's blue right right now until I watch it. It's good. yeah I feel like it's a it's a hit or miss movie for a lot of people.
01:26:07
Speaker
So that put i we're going to say, Jonathan, your final score. I'm a 35 total. 35 and we are going to say that, Adam, you were right there with Jonathan on most scores.
01:26:24
Speaker
My earth the ending. So we're going to say you're a 32. Yeah. yeah About, okay. Would that be right? Because I gave the final one a one.
01:26:37
Speaker
You are higher than Jonathan on most of the middle categories. Okay, right.
Movie Scores and Audience Appeal
01:26:44
Speaker
you are two points higher than that. I'm to attention to that score next time I come on the show. I'm going have to fill this out beforehand. Usually that's how it works.
01:26:54
Speaker
I always forget that that's a thing. Hey, I'll give you a 30. 30 of... thirty out of So 30, am 43. that takes a forty three so that takes
01:27:10
Speaker
ah Like I said, I really enjoyed this movie. and um The average then is 36, three and a half star, which based on I feel like that's that's fairly accurate representation of the film.
01:27:25
Speaker
Also, based on our breakdown, i it just says specifically a score breakdown represents how good it is for a crowd. It just says it's good for a crowd.
01:27:36
Speaker
Not great, not excellent. It's good. You're taking a gamble on it. Most likely people will like it, but chances are they're going to like, I can't understand what this person's saying. And they're going to get frustrated. Yeah.
01:27:52
Speaker
yeah I think in the right environment, this movie would really hit for people. Yeah. Yep. I would agree. I think you get your historical, your history degrees together. And nah, I'm just kidding. Get your Puritanism mo bro. Get your Puritanism on.
01:28:09
Speaker
Could you imagine taking this movie out into the woods and just projecting it on a big screen and just everybody sitting around watching it in the middle of the dark woods? that I feel like I'd be much higher all across the board. and Yeah.
01:28:21
Speaker
With a big ass bonfire going. Oh yeah. Yeah. but you have a big can plop into and just like This sounds like I need to make this happen. Yeah. I'm all for it. Yeah.
01:28:34
Speaker
Move night in the woods, baby. That sounds like a good time.
Audience Participation and Fan Engagement
01:28:40
Speaker
All right. Well, Adam, thank you for joining us. Yeah. pick I'm sorry the rewatch wasn't. You know, that's that's that's movies, man. Sometimes they age well, sometimes they don't.
01:28:56
Speaker
Yeah. ah Jonathan, any other words? I don i don't i didn't write an outro for us today, did I? No, that's okay. We don't always have to add one. All right. All the rest of you watching out there, you you've heard us talk about it before, especially if you've this isn't your first you know time at the rodeo with us.
01:29:13
Speaker
You know, go go fill out, you know, one of our scorecards. Let us know what you think. Be part of the conversation. Always down to hear what everyone else has got to say. So, you know, tell us what's up. You know, don't be afraid. Give us a shout.
01:29:26
Speaker
Yep. I think that is the I mean, I'm biased because i created the system, but I think that's the beauty of what we do is that we try to. It's not just our opinion. We're here to read your scores and reviews. So if you give them to us, we can.
01:29:41
Speaker
It is about bringing together the differences in opinion to celebrate the art of movies. I love movies. Yeah, you can check out Jonathan's waving at his stuff right there.
01:29:55
Speaker
glorious i'll say that that is one of my favorite things about your guys's show and and why i'm so grateful that you guys ah you know have let me come on here a couple of times now is the interaction that you guys have with your fans i mean that's how we you know we met was just yeah you put yourself out there and it's it's so open to viewer interaction that i mean you you never know what's going to happen i mean new friendships are formed through the love movies. And I, yeah I love it. I love your show. um i appreciate you guys bringing me on several times and I hope to be back so many more times that that you guys get tired of me.
01:30:31
Speaker
I hope so too. It brings a little tear to my eye because yeah, you were, I was making those ah last Halloween. I was making the scorecards for people to share their stories. And Adam was pretty regularly on just about every 13, all 13 of the movies sharing his scores.
01:30:49
Speaker
Everyone that I, everyone that I saw, if I missed one, it, it would bum me out so I think that's the next one but I love that interaction and just seeing this is this movie is a great example of just
01:31:06
Speaker
at some different points on how we perceive it and I love that about it so all right that does it night 12 of 13 eyes of Halloween full quarter edition tomorrow is Halloween boosh tomorrow is halloween so you're probably celebrating tonight or tomorrow so be safe have a great time watch some great movies we made a list of 13 for you this year to uh help guide you if you are looking for something good to watch so adam thank you again for being here thank you for having me
01:31:46
Speaker
And we will see everybody tomorrow for not just the last 13 nights of Halloween, but our season finale. And then we will be back in January.
01:31:58
Speaker
There we go. Peace. Bye.