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Does Anything Really Matter?
402 Plays1 year ago
On the journey of awakening, it’s common to encounter challenging thoughts and questions. One of the most challenging is, “Does anything really matter?” If everything is one and life all works out in the end, do our actions meaning anything? Big question, right? This is the topic Laura and Kevin face head-on in today’s episode. Listen in to this raw and real conversation about their own experiences and how they have found peace in the paradoxes of life.
* Join us at Little Soul School, a community of people dedicated to soul growth, soul learning, and accessing the Akashic Records, a place that hold all of our souls’ histories—everything we’ve done in all of our lifetimes. If you’re looking for a deeper connection to yourself and a place to experiment and learn in a non-judgmental, open community of people, join us at https://littlesoul.school. No woo-woo, no fluff. Just fun and connection.
Come check it out at https://littlesoul.school
Follow Laura Coe:
Website: www.lauracoe.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/laurascoe/
Follow Kevin Kaiser:
Website: www.kevinkaiser.co
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kevinkaiser.co
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Transcript
Introduction to Soul School
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to Soul School with Laura Ko and Kevin Kaiser. On this show, we dive into life's biggest questions. Who are we? What are we here to do? And how can we fearlessly live as our truest, deepest selves? Soul School is the spiritual education you never received. So if you're ready, join us as we explore together. Soul School is in session.
Challenging Spiritual Topics
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome back everybody. And hello, Laura.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello, we are back for another episode. How you doing today, Kevin?
00:00:33
Speaker
doing great. We have something fun and I think it's fun to talk about. It's definitely something that I think everybody who is on this spiritual path of awakening or whatever you would like to call it faces but oftentimes is afraid to talk about because it doesn't sound very spiritual indeed.
Questioning Life's Significance
00:00:55
Speaker
And this is something that has come in waves for me and I hit one of those waves this weekend
00:01:03
Speaker
My wife and I, we live in central Oregon. It's beautiful. We were out walking. Everybody was out. It was gorgeous. And I had this thought as all of these people were walking past me on the trail and I saw them out on the river. It's like, oh, all of these people are living their lives. And they're the main character in their own stories. But does any of this really matter?
00:01:27
Speaker
And it just kind of stuck with me. The thought came and went, but it was one of those sticky thoughts. And I woke up this morning and went for my walk this morning. I was listening to Adyashanti. And as happens in my life, what he was talking about was exactly what I needed to hear at the moment. And he was discussing how on this spiritual journey, the pendulum tends to swing for everyone.
00:01:57
Speaker
which is we start out with this feeling of nothing really matters. And then we go on this journey and we discover that no, actually everything matters. This is beautiful. We find this great clarity and this great awakening until we go through what he calls the I had it and then I lost it phase where we feel like, oh my gosh, what?
00:02:21
Speaker
like nothing matters. If we're just awareness and if we're just here being and it's just all about presence and awareness, well,
00:02:30
Speaker
what does it matter if I push in my career or if I pursue relationships or any of those things? And so I thought this would be really great to talk about our soul community today of what do you do whenever you hit those bumps, which you will, of man, nothing really matters.
Strengths and Weaknesses in Spirituality
00:02:55
Speaker
Do you know what I'm talking about? Have you ever had this experience?
00:02:58
Speaker
Oh my God, yes. And I love that you're bringing this up because I sort of think of the shadow side of life, you know, a lot and you know, you have your greatest skills, right? You have these qualities about yourself that
00:03:13
Speaker
help you a lot in your life, right? I'm organized. I get things done. Sometimes it's better not to be organized. Sometimes it's better not to get things done. So sometimes the strengths become the weakness when you lean into them too much, right? And this spiritual awakening stuff, right? It's like, oh my God, this is amazing. And you're just like leaned into it. And there's all this
00:03:35
Speaker
magic and power to it, but the shadow side, the darker side, the side that people don't want to talk about because of something that I think about a lot. This sort of spiritual elitism or spiritual bypassing, I'm supposed to feel above life or something. Life no longer has me. All the time. It's supposed to be that way all the time. All the time and I've mastered it and
00:04:04
Speaker
I am able to weather the storms unscathed always, right, or something.
00:04:13
Speaker
This is one of them, this idea of nothing matters. It's like you get to this beautiful place of harmony in yourself and you start to realize like, oh, wait, it kind of doesn't matter. But then there's that, oh, no, wait, does it not matter? And it toggles between beautiful that it doesn't matter and really scary. Wait, wait, but
00:04:36
Speaker
If nothing matters and I don't matter, then what the hell am I doing? And you can kind of get into a new loop.
Isolation and Nihilism
00:04:43
Speaker
So when you think about it for yourself, how do you organize yourself between this idea of we're all in our own heads, we're living our own lives?
00:04:54
Speaker
a lot of what we're experiencing are just these thoughts and narratives that nobody else can hear, right? So you and your wife are walking and living your life and everybody's in their own experiences having these massive conversations that we can't hear, right? And so none of that really does matter to anybody but them to our, to ourself, our own story. But I don't believe in that. As I was walking past these people on the trail,
00:05:20
Speaker
like thinking, it's like, I don't care about your story. That's right. And I would ask Holly, I wonder what's happening in her life or in his life or look at that guy laying out, you know, getting a really bad sunburn. That's going to suck for him. But anyway, what do you want for lunch?
00:05:37
Speaker
Right. There's this massive conversation that's happening inside of each person's experience that is not happening outside of them. So we're not experiencing it. So it doesn't really matter to us. But then, yeah, how do you not slip into... I mean, I have my views, but how do you not slip into like a nihilistic state where nothing matters and we're just like ants and meaningless and sort of get into that, I think existential crisis that I used to get into years ago.
00:06:04
Speaker
Well, so I have a confession to make is that I have been stuck in that place several times in my life, especially many years ago when I really first started this journey of exploration and discovery. And first of all, I've just learned that this is part of living in relative reality, duality.
00:06:28
Speaker
Like, no matter how high your highs are, there are always lows to balance it. That's just the nature of life on earth. But here's how this... Going through that a few times has really helped me this weekend because I realize whenever I think, whenever my mind thinks, oh, this doesn't matter, it's comparing it to something.
00:06:55
Speaker
You know, this doesn't matter because I know, because I do know, my mind knows what matters. And this measured against that doesn't measure up. And when I started to really look at what is that standard? Because it's really just the comparison game, right? And I can always sort of triangulate it with other conversations or things that are happening in my life. Like my friend is being more successful than I am. His business is working better than mine is.
00:07:25
Speaker
their relationship is better than our relationship. And there's like this really subtle comparison game going on at the mind level. And it's going, well, actually you suck.
00:07:37
Speaker
that's why nothing matters is because everybody else is doing great. But if I were able to actually hear people's thoughts, everybody's thinking the exact same thing because there's this cultural standard that we set up mostly that we're all unconsciously, subconsciously and consciously to comparing against. And so for me, it's like the first step is recognizing that.
Redefining Significance Spiritually
00:08:05
Speaker
And then I'm seeking happiness and whatever that standard is, you know, and you, like you said, it's, there's a narrative like we're living by this narrative. Yeah. And as I've began to get clearer on that sooner, it just, it just isn't as sticky, right? It doesn't take me, it takes me a few minutes or maybe an hour or two to get out of that place versus, you know, living in nihilism for a month. And I've been there. That sucks. That's no fun.
00:08:38
Speaker
It's the mind, right? I mean, it tells a story about the idea of what it means to matter, right? Like what is the definition of mattering, right? Even mean, right? So when we define it and you say things like, well, I matter in relative sense to others and my achievements and my relationship. And when we think about why my life might matter, we think about it in terms of these external factors that perhaps
00:08:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right.
00:09:04
Speaker
translate into a life well-lived perhaps, right? Like I've had a good relationship. I've lived a certain type of life that has an outcome that
00:09:15
Speaker
I think looks a certain way so that people can value me, right? And it's all outside of the definition of the spiritual mattering, right? Because that's the mind. It's looking for tangible, recognizable things to prove that you matter, right? In fact, I mean, we talk about our kids a lot because it's so helpful in the show, but when your daughter was born, she mattered.
00:09:45
Speaker
before she achieved anything and before she had anything to compare to or what have you. It's like when we look at nature, to your point though, this darker side, does the rock really matter? Does the bush really matter? Does that one river really matter? Does it matter in the way that the mind is organized?
00:10:06
Speaker
No, it doesn't. I mean, it doesn't. The animals can die off, the leaves can fall. It's okay. It's okay. But it is. That's how I sort of get myself out of it is the definition around the word matter and moving it to, well, it is here. And so when it's here, it matters just for no other reason.
00:10:36
Speaker
Yeah, and as you're saying that, I'm actually reminded of a, you may not remember this, but you did an Akashic record reading for me, and it was at a time when I was swirling around this idea, and they were playing with the words of matter, like nothing matters, but then there's matter, and there's this sort of play on words of it's, sort of the mind created,
00:11:06
Speaker
comparison or here's the litmus test. And then there's actually what's true, which is what is the entire universe, everything that exists is its own meaning. It doesn't compare to anything else. And it matters simply because by very nature of its being, it is. And
Clarity in Presence vs. Confusion
00:11:37
Speaker
same moment, basically, when we were down by the river, I also realized that the same presence of awareness that I had to even have that experience, I remember I was looking at this one woman walking toward us and I just had this felt sense of, oh, what actually causes me to experience all of this is the same thing that's causing her to experience everything too.
00:12:06
Speaker
And to me, there was no words to it. It was like this felt sense in my body of, oh, this is actually what matters, because this is the only thing that actually is. It's this presence. It's this awareness to everything that's happening. And I don't know, to me, so the pendulum swings. But it's interesting that the contrast of the pendulum swinging
00:12:34
Speaker
is what brings a sort of clarity to me. That if you were in a room of just all pure white light, you wouldn't see anything. If you're in a room of pure darkness, you wouldn't see anything either. So it's like through that swinging of the pendulum, I was able to experience like this sort of micro lesson on a Saturday afternoon.
00:12:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's so at the heart of I think one of the toughest conversations in the spiritual journey. This question of like, okay, if everything I've learned my entire life that I thought mattered doesn't. What I mean by that is it doesn't end up bringing me the happiness and peace that I'm looking for because that's what we mean by mattering.
00:13:24
Speaker
And then this bigger question of like, why are we here? So does my life matter? And you get to these places where you're forced to grapple with these really elaborate, multi-layered
00:13:42
Speaker
conversations with yourself. And it gets dark because if you let go of my life matters because I achieve, because of my relationship, because of these external things, because of how I show up, because I'm a good person, because I'm a good friend. Like if you start to let go of the labels,
00:13:58
Speaker
Right? Then what's left? And then you say, well, wait, so what does matter? And then there's that panic, like, are we just floating in space on a blue ball for no reason whatsoever? And, you know, I fall back on these ideas of like,
00:14:16
Speaker
no matter how hard we try to understand life, there's an inexplicable quality to it that we can't fully ever grasp. And so when you say like, whatever is happening, what I know matters is what is presence, right? That falls into the inexplicable nature of life, right? Because then you start to say, well, let's talk about that. And why does that matter? And you can't. You're stuck.
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah. Right? So why can't you, Kevin, like start to formulate thoughts and theories around this presence mattering, right? Like wouldn't that solve this, I think, dog chasing tail problem? Yeah, you can't. I mean, ultimately you have to, you just have to let go.
00:15:09
Speaker
and realize that it's, first of all, it's so simple that it cannot be comprehended, I think is the issue. Because it's how do you explain or even describe what is, just like everything, like everything.
00:15:31
Speaker
And it really is just relaxing. And getting, you know, one of the things that's really helped me the most, and you've been pivotal in this, is helping me move from my head, really dropping down into my heart.
00:15:47
Speaker
in my body. And it's something that I've had to practice and learn because especially for men, I mean, we're really, we're taught, you have to figure stuff out, right? You have to architect it, you have to sort of dissect the stuff, reverse engineer it. And so it sets this, there's a cultural expectation, right? That like he who thinks the fastest and the sharpest is gonna win.
00:16:14
Speaker
But you become detached from your felt sense of being. It's kind of like Eckhart Tolle talks about the human condition is lost in thought, and you just quickly become disconnected. And I'm grateful that's what I was able to do when we were down by the rivers. I could feel in my body beyond just the thoughts,
00:16:41
Speaker
And when you do that, you can actually feel the movement of life itself, which is everything. That's actually what we're trying to touch in all of our pursuits, in our work, in our relationships. It's like what you said, we really just wanna be happy. Aristotle said that, what, 2,000 years ago, more than that, that the aim of every action is happiness.
00:17:09
Speaker
Right. Except the definition of those guys was to be in your
00:17:16
Speaker
filled truth, right? Not the American pleasure seeking happy. And that's where we've gotten so confused because, yeah, the desire for happiness and peace is not happiness, like I'm eating an ice cream cone. It is that I am in the truth of who I am, which is that purpose-based thing. And so when you are in that space,
00:17:41
Speaker
you can attain a sustained, contented, happy place. But if you don't understand that that's the goal, it's not a dopamine triggered joy state that's like, I saw a puppy and it was so cute. That's not sustainable. It's like just on a brain functioning level, you don't have enough dopamine. I mean, you get depleted from these chemicals.
00:18:06
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a wonderfully complex thing because what I find in my own experience is the minute I drop in and I have the total truth and awareness and I have that knowing and I'm like, oh my God, this is all there is. It's just a repetition of presence over and over and over.
00:18:25
Speaker
then my mind goes, wait, what? Say that again in a way that I can understand it and getting clear the two I's. The one that just had the experience and feels completely fulfilled in a moment of awe, in a moment of presence. And then the mind, the I mind says,
00:18:42
Speaker
Wait, why are we fulfilled though? What is it so that I can replicate it, so that I can hack it, so that I can be in that all the time, so that I can do that? It's not a misguided attempt with the mind. It's just like a little sibling that's like just incapable
00:18:58
Speaker
of keeping up with you, right? It cannot comprehend the magnitude of the experience you just had in language or words or replicatable experience in the way the mind wants to do
Understanding Presence and Fulfillment
00:19:09
Speaker
it, right? So what you were talking about that men want to solve to it, and I'm guilty of that. I kind of organized a little more like a guy that way.
00:19:17
Speaker
You know what was that and how do i do it and is there a way to replicate that and you know if i could stay there then i could have a continuously good life. I'll show everybody else how to do it all computer win against others but it's like you can't it's in the absence of that where you find it.
00:19:37
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you know, like the funny thing is, as we were walking down by the river, there's a big yoga festival that happens every year in Bend. So everybody, there was this big tent and they were all gathered for their final, I guess it was like a service together where they're singing and they're chanting and they're doing all of these things. And we walked past it. It's like, oh, well,
00:20:03
Speaker
It's interesting because I've been in those tents too, where it's, oh, well, money's not the thing, relationships are not the thing, but I'll be enlightened. I'm gonna pursue enlightenment. I'm gonna pursue spiritual growth. And then that's where I will matter. And it's like you swap materialism for spiritual materialism. But then I actually ran into the most enlightened being,
00:20:30
Speaker
I'd seen in a long, long time we were down by the river. It was amazing. There's this person, they threw a stick into the river, and this golden retriever takes off running, jumps into the river, swims out, grabs the stick, turns around, swims back, gets back, drops the stick in its owner's feet, and then turns and looks at the river again. And I thought, that's pure being wrapped in fur.
00:20:59
Speaker
Like, that is freedom. That actually is happiness and joy. It's just being itself. Yeah. Yeah. I sometimes think the evolutionary chart is upside down. Like, we're at the bottom. I don't know if anybody wants to hear that. But it's like we have these big minds, and we're so proud of them. And they're wonderful. Don't get me wrong, right? I'm not anti-brain. They're fantastic. I mean, I don't like to camp. I'm so grateful that we have all the pleasures of life in modern
00:21:27
Speaker
culture. I like it. I'm just a huge fan of innovation through the mind, but for happiness, for peace, for an internal experience, for being in your truth, for living a life that feels authentic to you. The brain is just the worst tool in the wood cabinet to reach for. It just does not work. It's just not work. And if we just knew that, it's like
00:21:52
Speaker
consult the brain for every other activity. But if you want to be like the Labrador and find that piece of being this, I mean, why do we want pets? Being in a furry wrapper is such a cute way of saying it. It's like they remind us of our own innate ability to find joy, right? Right.
00:22:11
Speaker
Yeah, and I've begun to use those feelings of, oh gosh, does anything matter? Or like that discontent, or that disillusionment?
00:22:22
Speaker
really as a pointer, I was talking to a client of mine about a week ago about the wisdom of disillusionment. I think we may have talked about this before and how disillusionment is a real gift because it's the first step to real clarity. And it's a repetitive thing that happens, you know, because disillusionment is about becoming unillusioned or de-illusioned. You're like,
00:22:49
Speaker
nothing matters. Well, yeah, well, that's your soul. That's the deep intelligence in you saying, hey, this doesn't feel right because you cannot find contentment here. You cannot find happiness there. Of course, you're going to be disillusioned because the jig is up. You've realized that those things cannot make you
00:23:10
Speaker
happy and so it just forces you to, it's like it's pre-installed in us and that's what forces us deeper and deeper and deeper and I think it's just ourselves, it's our soul self that is driving us back home, I guess.
Tough Moments in Spiritual Awakening
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very, very, very scary topic. I'm very grateful that you're opening up about your own experience. I've had so many of these. I've hit a wall and I'm like, what is the point? Why am I doing this to myself? The spiritual journey is miserable because I am confronted with the limits of my willingness to let go of my egoic frame of life for me. That's like
00:23:55
Speaker
where those conversations get really loud and stressful. Because if I'm going to let go of all of these driving forces and need to earn a certain amount of money for approvals, for family connections to be a certain way, for love and relationship, I mean, my God, what I've been called
00:24:14
Speaker
to rethink in terms of love, right? We don't want to do it from attachment and we don't want to do it because of needs and we don't want to do it because of a battle for power or control. Like, okay, fine, fine, fine. I get it. I get it. Those are all really beautiful and valid things.
00:24:31
Speaker
And as you start to strip it away, though, it's like, what am I left with, though? Right? And you drop into this, well, again, getting clear on the you, but the mind goes into a state of panic and fear, right? As it walks into a place of like,
00:24:48
Speaker
losing its grip over you and recognizing, well, all of these are the taught and understood ideas of the brain. So then what the hell am I doing here on this earth? Why am I in like, who am I? And it's, it's terrifying to not describe those things relative to friends, right? Relative to family. I mean, Kevin, wouldn't you say that this has cost certain relationships in your life?
00:25:16
Speaker
Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've definitely lost friends and family over this whole awakening kind of experience. Yeah. Yeah, because they don't understand you or you don't understand them. It goes both directions, right? It's not one way, but it's like you're not speaking the same language anymore. And so how do you justify to yourself to walk away from so many important
00:25:45
Speaker
parts of your perception of the world to have nothing left to hold on to, right? So Adashanti and they all sound wonderful. Well, then you just drop into a beingness and like I'm not grasping for life and I'm not resisting and I'm just in it. And it's like, oh my God though, how do you get anything done? And what does that look like? And right? It's so rarely modeled in the world other than
00:26:09
Speaker
these people look really happy. I mean, they seem peaceful, but it's like the mapping of it is what the brain wants to get back to. If I could just understand what you're doing, then I could get on board with it. And so Adashanti talks about that. I don't know if you noticed in his books, but he says, I'm very
00:26:31
Speaker
excited to share my process, but I almost hate to because then you're going to latch on to something I'm saying so that you can find the model for enlightenment. It's like this thing that you have to eventually just let go to your point.
00:26:46
Speaker
I'm never going to win this game. I just have to surrender and let go, which that's its own process of... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's getting back to, you know, like that dog, you know, simply its being itself. And, you know, getting back to my morning walk this morning, I was listening to Adyashanti, I was almost back to the house and he said, you know,
00:27:16
Speaker
Ultimately, everything will be taken from you. And I was like, well, that's an encouraging way to start your day. Everything, like death, will take everything from you. And so you cannot keep anything, but what remains is the essential nature of your being and your existence.
00:27:42
Speaker
you know, that's actually the true treasure that all of the spiritual teachings, all of the philosophical teachings point to is, you know, like, they're all of these things we externalize, right? Like, I'll be happy when I get that. I'll be, you know, complete when I do that. And it really is just this, it's such a simple thing that we don't,
00:28:08
Speaker
we think that we're the exception to the rule. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we know that's true, but for everybody else, you know, I just need to get my little enlightenment or my, you know, piece of success and I'll be different. But no, you just, you, in order to live, you have to die. In order to have the world, you have to give it up. And I mean, yeah, that whole paradox is true.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yeah, so beautifully put. I mean, it's such a vulnerable story to share because it's, in my experience, not talked about in too many circles that this
00:28:49
Speaker
I think coveted state, enlightened and spiritual path and all this stuff is actually extremely stressful for us, for most of the people we know, it's got a lot of dark days, a lot of terrifying thoughts. And to your point, I mean, out of Shanti's words, it's like, you just have to do this small thing, just
00:29:13
Speaker
Just die. Just give up. And it's like everything in us, right, in culture, it's like, well, but the dog doesn't have to pay bills, Kevin. It doesn't have to, right? It doesn't have kids, Kevin. Like, that's a dumb idea, Kevin. Like, why are we talking about dogs when you're, you know, it's not the realities of life. And it's like,
00:29:34
Speaker
Listen, you need to get a certain amount of money to pay expenses, but what are we talking about after all of that? A lot of people who have money will be the first ones to say that that psychology does not change. I know a lot of people with a lot of money and they are so still stressed out about performance and doing. It doesn't satisfy the ego.
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, and I think more and more people are getting really clear on this,
AI's Role in Spiritual Evolution
00:30:11
Speaker
right? This is something that we've known culturally for quite a while. And people in all different economic levels and levels of experience in life
00:30:20
Speaker
are really saying the same thing and coming to this realization of, oh, well, actually there's a different way of being, there's a different way of living and life itself is really sort of catalyzing this
00:30:37
Speaker
evolution, I guess. And I'd say things like artificial intelligence are going to just accelerate it, because we attach so much of our identity and worth to work. Well, COVID started changing that. People's jobs disappearing and they would wonder, well, who am I without this? And now technology is actually accelerating these kinds of conversations.
00:31:05
Speaker
around, yeah, what really matters. And ultimately, I think this is like Rupert Spira and others talk about that desire to achieve, that desire to seek happiness, it actually is our very nature drawing us back to itself.
00:31:25
Speaker
you know, it actually is, it's like when you're hungry, like there is a natural satisfaction to that hunger you eat. Or when you're thirsty, there's something that satisfies that thirst. Like there's this deep, deep soul hunger that is satisfied. And like, we're just going through this process of discovering that it has nothing to do with, you know, what we do in life for bank accounts and those kinds of
Reflecting on Spiritual Journeys
00:31:52
Speaker
things. But,
00:31:53
Speaker
That journey is, yeah, it's got some deep valleys just as it has really high summits. I love it. Well, thank you for sharing your story, your walk and your realization. Appreciate it. All right, everybody. Well, thank you for tuning in and we'll be back with another episode soon.
Little Soul School Promotion
00:32:16
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this week's episode and I really hope that you consider checking out the Little Soul School, LittleSoul.school, where there's a community of people dedicated to soul growth, soul learning, and the Akashic energy.
00:32:33
Speaker
a space that holds all of our soul's histories, everything we've ever done in all of our lifetimes. Because they're looking for a deeper connection to themselves, a place to experiment and play with spirituality in a non-judgmental, vulnerable, open community of people. No woo-woo, no fluff, just fun and connection. Come check it out, littlesoul.school.