Transcript
UKRunChat: Hello, welcome to this episode of the UK Run Chat podcast. And today's guest is someone whose work you've almost certainly seen, maybe without even knowing it. We're joined by David Miller. He's a trail running photographer who's quickly become one of the most recognisable visual storytellers in the sport.
UKRunChat: Hi, David. Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today. How are you?
David: Yeah, I'm all good. Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah,
UKRunChat: Yeah, would you like to give our listeners kind of a brief introduction to yourself, really? You can probably do it much better than I did.
David: yeah sure. So I'm a trail running photographer, or just a photographer. I've been on the scene probably for so four or five years now. um First and foremost, I'm a runner myself. I've been running for over a decade.
David: um But you've probably seen my work across Instagram. um on my website and so probably across various races like across the world.
UKRunChat: Yes, and probably the most recognisable kind of recent one, which has become quite iconic, is the one of Jasmine Paris kind of slumped at the gate of the Barclay Marathons last year.
David: Yeah, for sure. I think ah think that race was the race that um sort of helped me become like a different sort of stage of photographer, but that's the image that sort of done the rounds.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: And I think sometimes as a photographer, you just need sort of one moment and one chance. And for me, that was definitely that. i was very, very lucky to be there.
UKRunChat: Yeah, it was wonderful. We'll chat a little bit about the kind of behind the scenes of that later on, if that's okay.
David: Yeah, of course.
UKRunChat: Can we start with your own running? Like, how how did you get into it? How long have you been a runner?
David: Yeah, so just over a decade now. um i remember my my son, he's 13 now, he he got really poorly when he was one years old. And the hospital where he was, was looking for a team to run the Great South Run, which is a 10 mile run in Portsmouth. And, you know, i was a little bit overweight, quite unhealthy, like many of us before we start running. And i was training for that 10 miler and just very quickly caught the bug.
David: um And as soon as I completed that 10 miler, I just sort of delved into trail running and then went through the the stages of sort of 5K, 10K, half marathon, marathon and ultras.
David: I went all the way up to 100 miles and yeah, just fell in love with the sport.
UKRunChat: Yeah, gosh, you've got to fall in love with it if you're doing those kind of distances.
David: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I still i still run nowadays. More so for fun. But I think over the last six months, I've definitely sort of found my love for running again. um go Getting back into races, not just photography, but running them, you know, as as like an athlete.
David: um I'm heading out to UTMB Istria in Croatia next week to run the 42K, which is basically like a marathon distance.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: So that would be very interesting.
UKRunChat: Oh, that'll be lovely. So what will that be like in terms of terrain, very mountainous?
David: um It's not too bad, the 42k. There's about 3,000 foot of elevation. um It's a very runnable 42k. So that's the plan, really, is just to go there and just have some fun and just connect the trails and the different landscapes.
UKRunChat: Yes.
David: And that's what fulfills me the most.
UKRunChat: Yeah, no, that's amazing. So just I'm intrigued about the 100 mile distance, because it's it's one i've I've never tackled myself, I'm not sure I ever will. um What kind of draws you to those kind of distances?
David: I think it's it's it's almost like the obvious where you you just push yourself as far as you can go. i think with 100 miles, it's like the new marathon, really. There's so many variables and there's so many things that can go wrong.
David: And I think if you can go and execute 100 miles well, you get a real sense of satisfaction from that. you know um And it's it's like the ultimate test, isn't it, nowadays? Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. i don't know what it is about human nature, though. We do like a round number, don't we? Like, would you ever go go further than 100? Yeah.
David: Yeah, i think it I think it's like the triple figure thing.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: I think when I look at these backyard ultras that go on where some of the runners are doing sort of two, three, 400 miles, and I think with backyards, if you can hit 100, all of a sudden, then you want to hit 200, then three, and you count in hundreds.
David: um But then again, a lot of runners would just be happy doing a couch to 5k and achieving that 5k distance. And from sort of where I've come from, you get the same buzz from doing a really good 5k park run time than you would finishing 100 miles.
David: You know, it's all the same dopamine. And I think at the end of the day, it's all it's all still running.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: But I guess it's what you enjoy the most, whether you're out there on the trails for like a really long day or days, or whether you just want a quick spurt and run quickly.
UKRunChat: Yeah. So what's what's your kind of preferred distance at the moment? You're obviously heading out to do this kind of 42K soon. is Is that generally the kind of running you you'll do?
David: Yeah, would say so. I've only done 100 miles once, um but I don't think I executed it particularly well. But nothing's sort of drawing me back to that. I think the time it takes to train for these events is a lot.
David: And as holding down like a full-time job as a gas engineer, being in the media world and trying to train for, you know, like a 100 miler is very, very difficult.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: But I've had to find that middle ground where I can say, you know, I can train for this half marathon and put in like a good time. And next week in Croatia is very much going to be, I'm going to try this marathon and see how it goes.
UKRunChat: yeah yeah i know well it it should be beautiful anyway how whatever happens won't it
David: Yeah, absolutely. I've seen some of the pictures out there and it's great UTMB have taken it over and it'll be good to see some familiar faces. um I'm going to take the camera out there for a little bit as well and yeah, we'll see how it goes.
UKRunChat: Yeah. So have have you kind of run other races out there before?
David: Not in Croatia, no. I've done, well, the only race I've run abroad actually is the MCC, which is a nearly a marathon distance in the UTMB week, but that's for volunteers and media and people associated with the race.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: So it's not like a like an official world championships, but it's still like a little taste of what UTMB is like on some of the course.
UKRunChat: Yeah. And has that given you a taster to go and do more? over that side.
David: Yeah, definitely. yeah What i would like to do, I'd like to do ch Croatia, get the running stones and then put my name in the ballot to do the OCC at UTMB.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: That would be the plan. So there's a little hint to UTMB to pick me out the hat.
UKRunChat: Oh, there you go. If if if you're listening.
David: Yeah, yeah.
UKRunChat: ah So, yeah, so let's get on to photography then, because you've only picked that up relatively recently. Is that right? During lockdown.
David: Yeah, I think during lockdown, were all looking for something to do, really. and i remember when we were first allowed out for walks, um I had a DSLR camera, so I just wanted to try it out.
David: And I was just having a lot of fun playing with that, different angles. And I was getting a lot of satisfaction from the creativity side um and the editing side, really. And a lot of my friends are triathletes and trail runners.
David: So I was photographing them for fun and just sort realised quite quickly I had an eye for it. But more importantly, I really enjoyed it. um And that particular year when I started was the year when UTMB was drawing just after lockdown.
David: So I managed to go to UTMB via Trail Running Magazine as media.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: And from there, really, that's where I fell in love with the two, you know, Trail Running and Photography and WANT.
UKRunChat: Yeah. so So how did you get into the UTMB as a media person then? How did how did that come about?
David: Where it was like a quiet year, I just went through the the usual accreditation process.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: But where it wasn't a particularly busy year, which I didn't really know at the time because it was my first time, you know, it was almost like an access all areas. And obviously Courtney DeWalter was out there, Francois Dehane, you know, some really good trail runners.
David: And it felt really good to be able to capture the best in the world. you know I look back and I've got a pretty good one of Courtney De Walter. And I think from there, that made me realise I can do this. um But then I wanted to delve a bit further and and think, was this luck or can I keep doing this at every race?
David: Hmm.
UKRunChat: Yeah, OK. So what's going through your head when you're you're at an event like that? Do you have kind of a ah plan of what you want to capture or do you have some locations you want to be at
David: yeah yeah A bit of both, really. i think I think my style sort of developed into capturing people and emotion, and I'm very, very drawn to it. I want to capture you know how I see the event.
David: um not Not necessarily like the glamorous side, like you would see at Ironman on the finish line, where it's all Hollywood. I'm more interested in going to these aid stations so and capturing people in their lows and the real side to the sport.
David: I realise, you know, it's like a race is good and bad times and everything in the middle. But I think that's the key for the photography for me is to capture everything and and not skip any part of the race.
David: But I think location wise, I obviously have to do a bit of homework on where I'm going and I'll have a look at the terrain and see what backdrops and that might work. But I think a lot of the the finish line, start line and aid station work is very much done off the cuff, to be honest. I i would turn up and see who looks interesting and you know what looks interesting and work with that.
UKRunChat: Yeah, so what like how many photographs would you be taking like during an event like that?
David: I think like an event like UTMB, probably close to 7,000 or 8,000.
UKRunChat: Wow.
David: Yeah, you just click away. And then when you're when you're not tired, like the next day, you would just have ah have a quick scan through and just see what takes your liking, really. But very quickly, I was picking up the photos I liked, putting them out there.
David: And they normally had quite a good response. And this is what made me believe I can carry on doing this. So I was just ticking off the different events as I was going along and probably getting technically better as a photographer as well.
UKRunChat: Yes. I mean, can you, but so what was the, what was the first time that you took a photo where you thought, yes, that's something special? What was it about it?
David: Yeah, I would say that first one of Courtney DeWalter in UTMB in 2023, that photo did well.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: Courtney wanted a copy, which was great. But again, that was the photo that made me realise I can do this, but I just wanted to see if I could do you know produce that quality of photo regularly, for sure.
David: But again, from that to now, my my style has changed a lot because at the time i was very unsure technically what I wanted to do and what direction I was going down.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: um But I've variily so look ah naturally sort of picked up what direction I'm going down and I've naturally picked up like my own style, really.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: I've taken a lot of influence from different photographers, from different genres as well. It doesn't have to be like trail running. um But yeah, I've taken influence from a lot of photographers and just stamped that as my own style.
UKRunChat: Yeah. So, I mean, is there a particular photographer or style then that kind of inspired you early early on? you
David: Yeah, early on on the scene, there was photographers like Alexi Berg and Howie Stern. They were the big two in trail running and they still produce some amazing work, you know, to this day. the You know, I see them as the best, really.
David: But I think outside of trail running, I took an interest interested in in street photography. You have Alan Schaller and there's obviously legend photographer in the UK, Martin Parr.
David: A lot of his work's amazing. And, you know, all all these photographers capture people and they capture like great moments, you know.
UKRunChat: Yeah, I think that's what that's what comes across in your photos. They've kind of got a like a deep emotional weight to them, haven't they? And ah um I kind of I want to try and understand how you make that happen in a photograph. It's really something quite special.
David: Yeah, it's it's really hard to explain. I think, you know, I'm a bit of an empath. And I think, you know, if i if I'm looking at someone struggling at an aid station or, you know, like an ultra runner's wife or husband coming over consoling them, I'm naturally drawn to that because I want to watch that moment.
David: um And I'll just so happen to have a camera on me. But I think, Yeah, i I just I just target people and moments and and emotion. But in the same breath, I want to capture these big, beautiful landscape running shots as well. And what I try to do is have like a perfect cocktail of all of that.
David: So if I go and shoot like UTS, for example, in May, you know, I'll be up in the mountains, I'll be in the aid stations, I'll try to be here, there and everywhere. um But it's it's difficult sometimes to find the balance on too much aid station or too much trail running. And you yeah you want to find that balance of capturing everything fit the best you can.
UKRunChat: Yeah, because you're obviously anticipating kind of where those emotional moments are, like the, I don't know, like relief crossing the finish line, but kind of before that will come a bit of exhaustion.
David: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Like how how do you anticipate being in the in the right place at the right time? That must be, is that kind of instinctive?
David: i thought I think so. A lot of it is luck as well. I think sometimes photographers sort of create their own look and you have got to be in the right space in the right time. But I guess if you put yourself in those moments, you can be well practiced. And that takes you know skill from from doing photography for years where you feel red very ready to take that particular shot.
UKRunChat: Yeah. I mean, what is it about trail running in particular that because you you seem to have found your, hate to use the word niche, but you you are kind of, you do produce a lot of beautiful images within that environment now.
UKRunChat: What is it that makes trail running in particular such a good subject for photography for you?
David: I think trail running has it all, doesn't it? I think if you're going to go and shoot like a park run, like a 5K, it's sort of over with quickly. And it's very much like a one trick pony. People are in the pain cave for sort of, you know, 20 minutes to half hour and that's that.
David: But I think with ultra running, there's so much more of a story because all of a sudden you have these big, beautiful backdrops. You have a start and finish and everything fit in between. And obviously with ultras, you know, quite traditionally like an A to B, aren't they? So it feels like an adventure.
David: um And for me, like you say, it's the most important thing is capturing that adventure and and showing that the best I can. It's almost like telling the story. So if I went to, again, shoot UTS, I would very much want to be at the start, at the finish, and I would want to be on the trails. I wouldn't want to skip any of them because it would feel like a part of the story is missing.
UKRunChat: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
David: A really good example, actually, I was always in UTMB 2023. twenty four And
UKRunChat: and
David: and I was looking through my photos towards the end of the week when people were finishing UTMB, like the regular runners. And I just felt like something was missing. um And I realised it was like a like a back of the pack finisher. So I ran back down to the finish line and within five minutes got the image I wanted. And it was just a chap crying with his dad.
David: You can see that on my Instagram. You can see like a tear sort of coming down his eye clearly. And that was what I needed to sort of complete complete that that race really.
UKRunChat: Yeah. so So you're looking for a whole, when you do an event, you're kind of looking to produce a whole portfolio of images from that event, are you? Yeah.
David: Yeah, definitely. A lot of diversity, yes. Yeah, I mean, i' I've got nothing against it and I realise a lot of these photographers are needed, but I just can't sort of sit there in one spot and capture every runner. It doesn't...
David: you know i don't know interest is the right word. It just doesn't fulfill me.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: need to have like a bit of a free license and just go where I feel is right during the race. And so if I ever work for a race director, I'm very, very clear on that. you know but i'll I'll help capture you the story of your event.
David: But I can't promise I'll get every runner.
UKRunChat: Yeah, yeah that must that must be tough, actually.
David: and
UKRunChat: You see them at kind of the big events and they're literally just on a chair out there or kneeling down with a camera in front of them.
David: Yeah, and I think as well, a lot of those photographers are full-time, so that's their job.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: So they may rely on capturing every runner to get paid. But I guess, you know, I'm in a position where photography is not my full-time job and it's ah it's a passion of mine.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: So I can go to these events with, you know, with like a safety blanket where, i you know, I don't necessarily need paying. i do it I do it for my my own creativity creativity and passion.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: you know So like I can afford to take that risk where I haven't got to capture every runner.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. What's more important to you when you're shooting then? Is it kind of the the human experience, would you say, or the kind of athletic achievement or perhaps a bit of both?
David: Yeah, a bit of both, I would say. Yeah, as long as I'm happy with the image and the composure and more importantly, how I feel when I look at the image, that yeah that's that's the most important part for sure.
UKRunChat: Yeah. and Would you kind of before you go to an event, would you have an idea of which runners you'd want to capture?
David: Yeah, not necessarily. I think it's always good to capture the winners running fast through the these great environments.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But what i what I would tend to do is follow the fast runners to the finish, you know, capture them. But I'd always come back and capture the tail runners and everyone in between, you know, because, again, that that's what completes the story for me.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah. And would you spend time getting to know any of the runners whose images you've captured?
David: Yeah, definitely. you know If I've captured something worthwhile, I always get in touch with with these runners.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: um you know and I always send them a high res. I never charge them just because I'm happy they're sharing my work.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But yeah, I think you know some of their some of the high profile runners like Jasmine Paris or Matthew Blanchard, you know Jack Scott, Courtney DeWalt, I've had some great conversations with them and I've yeah been really proud for them to share my images. so
UKRunChat: Yeah, you you did, of course, capture ah another iconic shot of Matthew Blanchard, didn't you, at the UTMB, which I think you won a reward for that one, didn't you?
David: Yeah, I did. I got lucky on that one. I think um I got there early and I managed to sit right at the bottom in the middle of there the photographer pack at that UTMB in 2022.
David: Matthew Blanchard just so happened to collapse right in front of me on the floor and I had the the right lens to do it really. So he was bang on in the middle. i put that photo in black and white and it just, yeah, it turned out a okay. So I entered it in the British Photography Awards and um and it picked up the People's Choice Award in 2023.
David: And, you know, that was a big moment, really. I think it was that moment there where I thought, you know, I can step this up again now, but I need ah need a new camera to do this. I think that particular camera I was using for a few years was a Canon EOS 90D. It might not mean much to some of you, but it's a very sort of entry-level to intermediate camera So basically anything at night, forget it. you know It won't capture any dark photography.
David: But it took me so far. And again, when I won that award, it I knew I was going out to the Barclay the next year. And I knew I wanted to capture the Barclay in a particular style. Similar to Alan Shallow, the street photographer.
David: If you haven't checked him out, do on Instagram. He's got like a million followers. um But I was very much inspired by his book, Metropolis. And that's how Do Not Block Gate come about.
UKRunChat: Okay, yeah. So, I mean, yeah. Do you want to talk us through how Barclay happened then? have you How did you make that happen? it's ah It's a very secretive race, isn't it? Can you just turn up?
UKRunChat: Did you have to ask permission?
David: yeah yeah Yeah, I think, i to you know, I went in 2023 for the first time, had to jump through a lot of hoops, getting a visa to get there.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But like many of you, I'm sure, you know, this UK run chart, I'm sure you've all heard of the Barclay, I'm sure you all know how it works, you know, trying to trying to explain the Barclay to like your nan and granddad and whatever it's there.
UKRunChat: It just sounds mad, doesn't it?
David: It's very difficult.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: Yeah, I just send them to like a YouTube. I'm like, right, watch watch that. Watch where dreams go to die for the first five minutes. And that explains it well. But yeah, I was like many of you. I watched the documentaries and I was absolutely intrigued. And that kind of went hand in hand with my photography.
David: And that was the event I needed to shoot in which I thought my style would suit the most. So 2023, yeah, I jumped through a lot of hoops to get out there. um A lot of people would ask me how And the truth is, I don't know how runners do it.
David: I've got a rough idea, but I don't know the date. I don't know the process. But what I do know is the media has a separate like process. So I found that out you know on my own, if I'm honest.
David: I just sort of done a bit of homework, didn't ask anyone, you know dotted the I's and crossed the T's, got out there in 2023 and learned the ropes.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: And luckily for me, the two photographers I mentioned, Alexi Berg and Howie Stern were out there. And they took me under their wing and showed me the ropes out of the Barclay. Because obviously it's very daunting at first. you think You think of Frozen Head in these stil steep forestry hills and characters like Lazarus Lake out there. And it is, is you know, was petrified before.
David: But i when I arrived, I felt like part of the Barclay family and you're welcomed. And I settled in very, very quickly. And I produced some work um you know I was fairly happy with at the time.
UKRunChat: Yeah, that must been so cool to kind of go and meet those photographers who kind of inspired you as well. That must have been a really special moment.
David: Yeah, definitely. we were a trio out there. And, you know, I just thought we're going to go out there.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: We won't see any finishes, but it would just be cool to photograph the Barkley. But we actually seen three finishes that year, which was really cool. So Relian Sanchez, John Kelly and Karel Saab.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: So I come away absolutely buzzing from that, to be honest.
UKRunChat: Yeah. yeah
David: Like, you know, this isn't going to be vetted. We're never going to see three finishes again. You know, this is a this is a world's first. No one finishes the Barkley. um But again, that that sort of propelled myself to new heights as well. It made me enjoy it a bit more and it just made me realise I'm in this for the long run and it's something I i enjoy doing.
UKRunChat: Yeah. So just talk us through the behind the scenes at Barker then, because there must be a lot of waiting about.
David: Yeah, definitely. I think before the Barkley actually starts, all the runners around the campsite and there's a lot of anticipation and they're marking their maps because they don't know when the conch is going to go off. So there's a lot of anxiety and tension around the camp.
David: But yeah, when the race actually starts, it's quite calm really because we're only allowed in one location other than the camp.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah.
David: And that's obviously at the top of Ratjaw, which is that you know the briar-filled hill with the pylons that you see with the with the fire tower.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: So we're only allowed up there. So I think i went in 2023, I went up there four or five times. um But there's a lot of time to play with the images up there. you you're You're waiting for the runners and you can just set up these shots so you know what you're going to capture.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: obviously, as soon as they come over, ratjaw you run back down to camp, catch them touching the gate, and then you're back and forth.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: And to be honest, your diet goes out the window, you forget to drink, you know, you're you're snacking on biscuits and stuff. And it's, yeah, it's very, it's like you're in a fight or flight, mate, the whole time, you know.
UKRunChat: Yeah. And you're potentially doing that for 60 hours, aren't you? You know, it's a long, long time.
David: Yeah, you know, it I'm sure there is time to go for like a Mexican or a burger around the corner, but As photographers and media, no, we don't we don't really have time because we don't we don't want to miss a moment.
UKRunChat: Yeah, you might miss something really special, mightn't you, I guess.
David: Yeah, I mean, I was sleeping in the back of the car in 2023. I hired like a Subaru out there. I was really happy when they gave me that at airport. But yeah, I just put down the back seats and i was... I was sleeping from there. I had like a little stay for tea and coffee and was just snacking, to be honest. so I probably come back very, um you know, not not very nutrition or malnutrition.
David: But, yeah, I did enjoy it. Definitely. It was ah it was an experience for sure.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, how how far is kind of the top of Ratjaw from the main camp? Is it easily accessible when you as you're not a runner?
David: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's like an hour and a half hike. But we do like another version where we drive to somewhere called Arms Gap. And it's probably like a 45 minute hike.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But it's quite nice because it gets you out in the car. You can pass a few places. You go past the prison.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: So, yeah, you can just see more areas. That's that's the one I'm used to. But I know a lot of people just hike from camp, to be honest.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah, ah that's pretty cool. So you're you're quite active while you're out there, kind of just running about between the two locations.
David: Yeah. And I know like the main trails out in the Barclay, the ones where you would hike up to Rapture, they're basically called Quitters Road.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: You know, and any of these main trails you see through any forests, like in the UK, that they're all Quitters Road because they all lead back to camp.
UKRunChat: Right, okay.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But obviously the Barclays off the grid and off these main trails.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah, so did so did you kind of get to witness any of the Barclay course or is that just kept top secret?
David: Well, obviously, Ratjaw, but when we park at Arms Gap, you hike, yeah, 45 minutes up this trail. There is a section of the trail that the runners do pass. And i was lucky enough to see a couple of runners sort of cross that going to the wilderness.
David: So I have seen some of the course.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: And yeah, quite honestly, it's as steep as it sounds. You look at it, you think, how on earth are they getting up that?
UKRunChat: Is it?
David: You know, you're talking, yeah, the gradient, like 40% gradient. It's it's ridiculous. Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah, and I know I've just watched one of the the most recent films released about the Barclay and Jasmine was talking about how she was having to kind of literally hold on to vines to pull herself up the hill at some at some points.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: yeah Yeah, it's just brutal.
UKRunChat: Yeah. yeah
David: you know I don't know if it's funny.
UKRunChat: um
David: I don't know if that's the right word. But when the runners come back to camp after doing in a lap or two laps or whatever, they they are cut to bits.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: And you know as photographers, it's like, yeah, that's great for us because you know because we we can capture it. And you know look at these runners.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: Look what they're putting themselves through. But yeah, it really is that. It's savage out there. It really is.
UKRunChat: Yeah, brutal, isn't it?
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: So, what I mean, what drew you to Barclay then? was it Was it just that you knew you could create some special images from it?
David: Yeah, I just think it it it would have suited my style the most. But again, 2023 was the big learning curve and it set me up for 2024, really.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: With 2023, it was very much get out there, see how I got on. But 2024, after winning after winning the the British Photography Awards, that was where there was a game plan for sure.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah. so So you kind of, you had your new camera, you're heading out to Barkley.
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Did you have the book in mind then? Was that, was that the original idea?
David: Absolutely. Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So i went to the Laker store in Mayfair, picked up a Q2 monochrome, which is a black and white specific camera. So the Barkley was only shot in black and white in 2024.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: um But the whole idea was to do a photo book a little bit like Alan Shaller's Metropolis.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: You know, no words, because I want people to to look at the pictures for themselves and decide. Although there is an index at the back if you want to see who's in the picture and where they were. But yeah, very much the idea was to produce a photo book documenting the 2024 Barclay marathons.
David: um You know, obviously I didn't have any idea what was going to happen. It was all a bit crazy when I was out there. You know, I couldn't believe what I was seeing, to be honest, but it only added to the dynamic of the book.
UKRunChat: Yeah, that's wonderful. and is it's is there a particular image in the book that means the most to you then?
David: Yeah, it's got it's got to be the one of, like Jasmine, you know, at the gate. I think You know, in years to come, as long as I carry this on, I think for me, that will be the photo i which which people remember. um There's just so much to it. Even I look at it now. Well, looked at it a few a few weeks ago. And if you look at the very top left hand side, you can actually see Laz's hand on the gate.
David: And that just adds a bit more character to it. But obviously in the background, you've got all these previous finishes, you know cheering.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: Obviously Jasmine looks like she's just gone gone to war. you know and this it's It's got a bit of everything. It was a beautiful moment.
UKRunChat: It was. Yeah. So. So what were you kind of thinking as Jasmine was running towards you then? What was going through your mind?
David: I think um you know I was with some some people who've finished Barclay and know the course well. And during lap five, it was nearly mathematical mathematically impossible for Jasmine to finish.
David: And from what I was hearing, you know she was going to finish lap five, but it was unlikely she was going to finish it within the 60-hour cutoff. So when we seen finisher four come up, yeah we you know we were expecting Jasmine to be maybe three hours later.
David: But I think half hour later, there was this little girl at the bottom of the road and she shouted, she's coming. And I remember I stood near Laz. I remember Laz sort of looking to his left really, really sharply. Yeah, and it was indeed Jasmine running around the bottom corner of the campsite, you know, pegging it up the road.
David: And so the media, we were all panicking because our cameras wasn't ready. you know and we just yeah we We were just working very, very quickly to get to get ready for this shot. But what I'd say is after you know four or five years of doing this, I had a lot of practice at finish lines and I felt very, very ready to capture that moment.
UKRunChat: Yeah, it's it's a wonderful image. So what what was going through your mind as you'd after you'd taken it once you had that image and you looked at it after afterwards?
David: Yeah, that's a really good question. I've never been asked that before. I remember being stood with Howie Stern and, you know, i can still remember his his big grin on his face. And we basically, you know, watched Jasmine for maybe five minutes.
David: We gather ourselves together and then me and Howie pegged it down to the bridge at the bottom of the campsite where there's the only place for phone signal. And yeah, loud and clear, basically. Yeah, we wanted to show the world this image and we wanted it to show the world you know arguably one of the greatest sporting performances of all time.
David: I still stand by that just because yeah she she really did the impossible.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: and We've all heard Jasmine's podcasts and video interviews. She redlined it, she believed, and she started a new wave for female running. shes you know Laz has openly said, it's not possible a female will not finish this race.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: and yeah and She did. so The rest is history.
UKRunChat: Yeah. it's a bit I've got goosebumps now, just as you're saying those words. It's amazing, isn't it? Like what she's done for female trail running. Incredible.
David: Yeah, definitely. Almost like um females in sport, really.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: she you know she's She's really pushed boundaries. I know Courtney DeWalter has been doing that for many, many years. She's a high profile one. But I think it's just because the Barkley was seen as impossible, you know, and there'll never be another first again.
David: and I sort firmly believe I'll never see or capture a moment that important again. very very I'll stand by that.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah. I mean, it was an incredible year, wasn't it? I think there were the five finishes, weren't there?
David: There was five, yeah. it was what It was absolutely wild, to be honest.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: it was ah It was strange. But also, what a lot of people don't realise, it was the year that Laz passed the reins to Karl, who's basically like the son he's never had and his best friend.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah.
David: But Karl Laniak now does runs the Barclay, apart from lighting the cigarette at the start. But Karl was basically doing everything. And it was the year yeah Laz passed the guard.
David: And it was just very, very fitting. It was the year that was the first female finisher.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Kind of ringing, ringing the changes really.
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: and what's What's Laz like? Did you get to chat to him?
David: Yeah, I've had quite a few conversations with Laz. He's just like a really highly intelligent guy. um He's very commanding. You know, if he's got something to say, he he just sort of commands respect and authority for sure.
David: But yeah, he's he's he's a lovely guy, protects the race, obviously very, very strict.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But yeah, he's such a warming character for sure.
UKRunChat: Yeah, he he sounds like a brilliant person. and what How did you show Jasmine the photograph that you'd taken off her?
David: yeah remember um i remember talking to Jasmine after she finished, you know, me and how he ran down to the bridge.
UKRunChat: Did you show it her in person or...?
David: put the photo online as you do because the world wanted to see that. And then we come back up to the gate and Jasmine was just getting herself together, coming out the chair. And remember asking her, you know did you red line that lap?
David: i was That's all I asked her, one sentence. And and she just said you know laughed and just said, yes, I did. And then hobbled back to her tent. But I think the next day I was driving back to Knoxville Airport and I got a message off Jasmine just saying, you know, David, if you've got any pictures, um because we've got New York Times, CNN, the BBC, ITV, all these big, you know, media hitters wanting photos. So, you know, at the airport, i very quickly compiled some photos for her.
David: Yeah, so she could share.
UKRunChat: Oh, that's fantastic. So kind of her her success in that race really has kind of helped you show the world your amazing image of her, hasn't it? That's, yeah, that's really great.
David: ah Absolutely. Yeah, it's kind of worked both ways. I think, you know, the one of the first things I did was obviously print out the photo for Jasmine and sort of send it to her. I think at the running show in January, we we got like a really professional print done from this company in Germany.
David: um And we had that on display at the running show. And that that got auctioned, basically. Was it like an auction? Or no, sorry. It was if you sign up for the Green Runners, you get it.
David: But ah the lady who won it is going to auction it. And then that will go to like the Green Runners. So, yeah, it's cool. I think I'll be able to do a bit of that forever now, to be honest.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Oh, that's amazing.
David: I think every year I'm sure I can give, you know, give this print to someone. And like I think it can get auctioned and it will raise money.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: Yeah, to the right proceeds.
UKRunChat: Yeah, that's fantastic. So the book is called do Not Block Gate after the famous, obviously, sign on the gate.
David: Yeah. Yeah.
UKRunChat: I believe they've they've taken it down now, haven't they? They've replaced Yeah.
David: I've seen that. So one of my friends was at the Barclay this year. And the first thing I noticed was, cool the the gate looks new, you know, because on the front of my book, it looks all sort of tattered and worn.
UKRunChat: bit cracked, isn't it, the original, yeah.
David: But yeah, but I thought that was really cool. I mean, when I was taking that photo with the camera, I knew, yeah, I knew that was going to be the cover. So it took me about 200 shots to get it with a headlamp, but I did get it.
David: um And by the way, there's there's no editing on any of those photos. They're straight off the camera, just to add to the effect.
UKRunChat: Wow, that was what I was going to ask, kind of how much of your images are kind of just composure and setting everything up. and
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: as opposed to editing. Do you do much editing of your ideas?
David: No, no. So indeed in Do Not Block Gate, Some of them, the exposure might be turned down very, very slightly, but no editing, no clarity, no sharpness, nothing at all. So they're straight off the camera.
David: And I think that adds to the effect because what I wanted to give was like a raw image into Frozen Head. I wanted people to see it for what it is really and nothing over Photoshop. And again, I haven't got an issue with Photoshop and photographers who do that, but I think the Barclay deserved...
David: you know, like like the raw side to be showing for what it really is.
UKRunChat: Yeah, that's that you really do have an incredible talent then because, you know, ah I've got, well, I think I've got the same camera that you probably started with actually because that was ringing a bell, the Canon one.
David: yeah
UKRunChat: And it is incredibly hard to take a good photograph on honor you know a proper DSLR, isn't it? Because you've got to get all the settings right. How how did you go about learning all that? Yeah.
David: Yeah, it's a bit to be honest, just off the cuff, um because I love it so much, I just get to have a lot of time to play.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But, you know, doing photography courses or going to uni is not something I'm interested in, really. You know, I don't want to sort of delve into it too much. But when I first started photography...
David: You know, there was there was one or two photographers out there who would say to me, you know, you need these lenses. But I've always had one lens, which was like a zoom lens. um But I think too many people out there are working to the book and work into the textbook on how things should be done and they're not going off their natural instinct.
David: you know, the do not block gate, there was no zoom lenses. Obviously that lake is just a fixed lens. So it's all about your own positioning. You've got to think where you stand and how you're going to take that picture and composition.
David: So there's no tricks with it at all, you know, but I'm not a fan of having five, six different lenses. I think one camera, you know, one shot, just go in there and get it the best you can.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah. And the images come across so much more real for that, I think, don't they?
David: I hope so. That was the effect I wanted, to be honest. And that's the feedback I'm getting. Yeah. And that fills me with a lot of joy, you know. And one of things one of the things I'm going to do out in Istria next week, actually, is just use my iPhone.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: i'm good I'm running the marathon. I'm going to take my iPhone with me, take some photos. And basically show people that you can do photography with iPhones and stuff.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: it's It's absolutely fine. You don't need these, you know, these really expensive cameras to do little bits and pieces, you know. Obviously, if you want to go shooting in the dark in that, I understand you do, you know, you need good gear for that.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: But in general, during the day, know, you can do lots of cool stuff with an iPhone.
UKRunChat: Oh, you can. and yeah you've just reminded actually, years ago, we had a little group going where we were into just photography when the iPhone had first come out. And we actually put a little exhibition on of of our photos in in the local library.
David: yeah
David: yeah
UKRunChat: And people came to see them. And do you know, some of the shots were really amazing. So you can get good good photos, can't you?
David: Yeah, you you you can. Like you say, in in the media world, there's very much a textbook. But I think if you want to stand out, you do need to be true to yourself. you know And I'm not necessarily saying I'm doing that, but I'm not one to follow the trend.
David: you know
UKRunChat: no
David: I'm very much, this this is what I do. And as long as I'm happy and I'm enjoying my photos and enjoying the process, I'll just carry on like down that path. but The only change I'm making this year, actually, though, is I'm going back to colour.
David: So I shot black and white for a year, but I'm going i'm going back to colour because yeah I'm heading out to Western States, 100 and bad water in June, July.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: And those those places need some colour.
UKRunChat: Oh, yeah, they do the skies and the rock and the mountains.
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: That'll be incredible, won't it?
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: what What was the decision but behind the monochrome? it's It's very striking, isn't it? It's very effective.
David: Yeah, I just think it it captures like blacks really well. um And I think as well, like i don't I don't know if you agree or not, whenever I look at a black and white photo, particularly like that Jasmine one from the ones I've done, I think it's it's just timeless, really.
David: and think, if yeah yeah, just black and white makes makes things timeless. Yeah, people will agree, people will disagree, but yeah, that's what I'm going
UKRunChat: Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you there, David, actually. Yeah, I think you're right. yeah Yeah.
David: Yeah, I think when you when you go to museums or whatever, a lot of these famous photos or a lot of the well-known photos, they're in black and white, aren't they?
UKRunChat: Yeah, they are. Yeah, i I think they look, but yeah, they've got a certain style. They do look nice.
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: um Have you got any tips for people on how to kind of compose an image? You were talking about iPhones there, if people are trying to capture ah a good image. maybe a ah good landscape image? Have you got any kind of
David: Yeah, a good way to look at it. Like if you're out on the trails and you've got like your iPhone in your bag, you know, this is how I started really, you know, taking photos of my mates. You would, if you've got like a big, beautiful backdrop, that would be the main character in the image. And you might put the runner like in the bottom corner and make the runner like the small part of the image.
David: And, you know, a lot of these iPhones and stuff have bursts nowadays and you can capture like a good stride, you know, or a good movement, you know, and the chances are if you take, 200 photos out on a trail run with your mates, you know you're out there for a few hours, at least one of them is going to be good.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: Yeah, so just so yeah keep keep throwing and you'll get one. Yeah.
UKRunChat: yeah And what about capturing movement? Because that's tricky, isn't it? Especially photographing runners.
David: Yeah, I guess you just need the right camera setting and the right speed. But again, with burst mode in that, you can capture a runner in a good stride. But that's why that's why events like the Barkley and that are quite interesting because the runners are moving very like quite slowly. So you've got a lot more time to think about the image you're taking.
UKRunChat: Yeah. And I guess you're doing a lot of shooting there at night as well, aren't you? Which again, that's tricky to take photographs in.
David: Yes.
UKRunChat: Any tips there?
David: Yeah, that was very tricky, to be honest. But one of the events I did the month before the Barclay last year was the tunnel down in Bath.
UKRunChat: Oh, yeah.
David: Have you heard of that?
UKRunChat: Yeah, have. Yeah.
David: Yeah, so you obviously that's 200 miles inside a tunnel. And I just thought, well, I need to i need to improve at low light. You know, i was openly bad at it. A lot of my images were in the light and I've seen stuff at night I wanted to capture.
David: But I was never able to, partly because of my camera, because it couldn't cope with it, but partly because of me, because I was so stubborn to learn learn how to do it. So I just thought, right, I'm going throw myself in the corner. I'm going to go in the tunnel.
David: And I was literally playing for hours in there, you know. And by the time I got to the Barclay, I was very, very sharp at night.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: So again, a lot of the, you know, the photos you'll see in Do Not Block Gate that were taken at night, yeah, it just felt very natural and was ready to do it.
UKRunChat: Yeah. So what what changes in your camera at night? You just have to kind of, I don't even know the technical terms for what you would do there.
David: Yeah, it's just like your ISO settings in that, and jerry like your frame speed.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: Yeah, so it's just literally a matter of just like having to play with it and seeing what's going for you.
UKRunChat: Practicing, experimenting, yeah.
David: Yeah, finding whatever light you can, yes.
UKRunChat: <unk> It's like running, I guess, isn't it? Just be consistent and lots of practice and you'll get better at it.
David: Yeah. Yeah, exactly that. But there seems to be quite a big movement and that in the media world now with running. I think, don't quote me on this, but I keep hearing that trail running is one of the fastest growing sports in the world.
UKRunChat: I've heard the same, yeah.
David: um I think yeah if you if you go walking in around London, you only need to see evidence of Hoka and Salomon shops in Covent Garden now, and with Jim Walmsley on the on the shop window.
David: you know that Obviously, trail shoes like the Speed Goats and that are selling well. So I guess it is one of the fastest growing sports and that's only going to attract more media.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: But again, there's a high quality you know abundance of photographers out there and the same with videographers. There's some incredible filmmakers in the industry.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah, there are. Yeah, we're very lucky that we're kind of happy to capture those moments for us. So you're heading out to the US again. is it later this year or next year, did you say?
David: Yeah. now this year in June, July, i've got ah I've got a few events I'm doing this year.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: I'm heading to the end of April. I'm heading to Brixton Prison. um
UKRunChat: Oh.
David: ah Some inmates doing a half marathon. So that'll be interesting.
UKRunChat: Yeah, that will be something different.
David: like Yeah, yeah. And then I'm going to go and shoot London Marathon a couple of days later because I've never done that before.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: and Why not? It's the biggest marathon in the world. So go and do it.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: And then, yeah, due July, I'm heading out to the Western States 100, which I'm really excited about. It's an event I've wanted to shoot for a long time.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: And this year happens to be stacked. I know Killian Jornet is out there now. Jim Walmsley, Hayden Hawks, yeah some incredible runners. And then Badwater the week afterwards.
UKRunChat: So and any, any kind of other dream races that you'd really like to go and photograph?
David: To be honest, I think it's them two. I think it's what is Western States and Badwater.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But I'm 40 in October and I sort of said to myself, well, if I can get to the end of this year and and shoot those the way I want to. Yeah, I'd be really, really happy with that. I think, yeah, you know, there's some cool races out of Madeira and that I'd like to go to.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: But definitely if I could get the Western States and Badwater out the way, i'd yeah, I'd be super happy with that.
UKRunChat: yeah So you're going back to colour. How do you think your style, will will it will it evolve over the next few years, do you think?
David: Yeah, i think I think it will evolve naturally, but I think what you'll see is more of the same as last year, but just colour, really. You know, it's the same camera, but just the colour one now, you know.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: um I might have to like edit a bit more now, to be honest. Now I'm going to add colour back in the mix. But yeah, i'll just I'll just have a play, get some new software and we'll just see see where it takes us. Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah, well, we look forward to seeing what you come up with. Yeah.
David: No, thank you.
UKRunChat: ah keep Keep tagging us in in images and keep us posted with how you're doing. Yeah, it's been lovely chatting to you tonight.
David: Yeah, well um
UKRunChat: Thank you. Thank you for coming on. and I just wanted to kind of finish by just saying, you know, if if somebody looks at one of your images, what do you hope they they feel?
David: yeah I just hope they can they can look at the picture and make up their own mind, really, as long as they feel something, you know, whether it's like a bit of emotion.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: I know we can talk. about like the Jasmine one in particular, because it was such a such a great moment.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: But those great moments are far few in between, aren't they? But I think, yeah, they if they can look at the picture and feel it and think, yeah, you know what, you know ah it's like I was stood next to David or behind David, I think I'd be happy with that.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah. have you Have you ever been really emotionally affected by an image that you captured?
David: Yeah, I think, to to be honest, even a year on, that that one of Jasmine, yeah, I still look at it and can't believe I was there for that moment. I don't think it's quite sunk in yet, to be honest.
David: But yeah, sometimes I look at him and I think, oh, you know, shall shall I put that out? You know, the the runner might not be happy, but more often than not, they are. They'll message me asking for that image and then they're happy for me to put it out like a sad moment or whatever.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Oh, well, yeah, we' we will look forward to seeing more of your beautiful images. and Do you think that running photography is changing? is social Now we've got social media is so prevalent. Is that does that help you um
David: Yeah, it it it does. I think, yeah, I think because social media is changing and platforms like Instagram and that are going, I think with Instagram in particular, they just feel it just feels like a like the trail running and ultra running community is booming.
UKRunChat: yeah
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: And it doesn't matter whether you're a runner or whether you're part of media or you're a brand or you're a marketer. just Everyone just seems connected. Do you agree with that?
UKRunChat: Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah, we've got we've got a really good community going within UK.
David: Yeah.
UKRunChat: and I do do see that a lot. Yeah.
David: Yeah, and even within the media, we're we're all we're all friends out there.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: You know, i've I've made some friends for life within the media world and none of us are competing.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: We're all very, very supportive. And I guess it's the same with runners. Most of them are humble, you know.
UKRunChat: Yeah, yeah. So you don't kind of have any any issues with kind of people kind of just using your images and without crediting you because we do hear about that sometimes and it does worry you as a photographer.
David: I think in the early days, yeah, I might have got like a little bit of, you know, a bit cross on a couple of occasions.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah.
David: But I think as, you know, as time goes on, I'm just like, yeah, do you know what? Use it.
UKRunChat: yeah
David: It's absolutely fine. It just, it gets your work out there. And to be honest, that would be the advice I give to any photographers wanting to start out in any sport.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
David: It's just to get your work out there, get people sharing it. And just to stay true to yourself, really. Obviously, just take inspiration from your favourite photographers and, yeah, pop it into your own style. And don't be afraid to be different.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. Where can people find your work and follow your journey?
David: Yeah, definitely like the Instagrams of the davidmiller.photography or the david.uk on my website. But yeah, they're the main two really.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much, David. It's been a pleasure talking to you and we hope that everybody out there listening has found some inspiration in this episode. We'll see you on the next one.
David: Great, thank you.
