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Sabrina Pace-Humphreys: Running, Belonging & Starting Where You Are
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In this episode of the UKRunChat Podcast, we’re joined by ultrarunner, campaigner and community builder Sabrina Pace-Humphreys.
Sabrina came to running in her 40s while navigating postnatal depression, looking for something that might help her survive a difficult period in her life. What started as a lifeline became a path to purpose, and eventually led her to some of the toughest endurance events in the world, including the Marathon des Sables, UTMB and the Spine Race.
Sabrina is also the co-founder of Black Trail Runners, a community working to increase representation, access and belonging in the outdoors. In this conversation, she shares why visibility matters, what it really means to feel safe and welcome on the trails, and how community can change lives.
We also talk about Sabrina’s new book, written specifically for women who are starting running, or thinking about it. The book tackles everything from confidence, kit and nutrition to menopause, motherhood, and running later in life, offering reassurance, honesty and permission to begin.
In this episode we cover:
- Starting running in your 40s
- Running and postnatal depression
- Finding identity and belonging through sport
- The reality of ultra running
- Why representation in the outdoors matters
- Co-founding Black Trail Runners
- Writing a beginner’s guide for women
- Menopause, motherhood and running without comparison
- Letting go of performance and finding purpose
Sabrina’s book Start Where You Are is published on 15 January
Follow Sabrina on Instagram
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
UKRunChat
Welcome to the UK Run Chat Podcast. Today, we're joined by someone whose story has inspired countless women to take their first steps into trail running. s Sabrina Pace Humphreys is an ultra runner and co-founder of Black Trail Runners, which is a community that's reshaping who gets to feel welcome on the trails. s Sabrina began running while navigating postnatal depression, searching for something that could pull her through one of the hardest periods of her life. What started as a lifeline became a platform for empowerment, not just for her, but for many others. And she's since taken on some of the toughest and duriest events on the planet.
00:00:33
UKRunChat
But she has a new book out and she's keen to encourage women to get into running whatever distance they want to attempt. We're thrilled to have you on the podcast today, Sabs. Welcome. Thanks so much you joining us.
00:00:43
Sab
Oh, hello. What amazing introduction. Oh, you're so good. on I have been on a few podcasts in my time and honestly, that's just, yeah, you've really encapsulated kind of who I am and what I'm doing.
00:00:56
Sab
Thank you so much for having me.
00:00:58
UKRunChat
Yeah, I know you're very welcome. I'm really excited to talk to you today because I think looking at your story, I love what you share on your social media. It's all about positivity, encouragement. and so I'm really keen to kind of get that message out there, just to not just to women, to men too.
00:01:08
Sab
Absolutely.
00:01:13
UKRunChat
You know, it's it's so important to for people to feel that the running space is for them.
00:01:13
Sab
Yeah.
00:01:18
UKRunChat
Can you just take us back to when you started running? Because I mentioned postnatal depression there. Maybe you can tell us your story about how it all started for you.
00:01:25
Sab
Yeah. Oh my God. So I've been running almost, Yeah, coming up for 16 and a half years now. And I started in 2009. But I think it's really, really important to say, because people always ask me, especially when they find out about the kind of things that I do now, it's like, oh, you know, were you, did you run as a child? You know, do you come from a sporty family? And the answer is no. You know, anyone that knows my story, my first book was a memoir. And I talk about kind of being a ah mixed race girl, teenager, young woman growing up in a town where no one looked like me and experiencing a lot of physical and and physical and mental racist abuse. And so I was really, really shy as a child. I'm sure there are people listening to this like, i would I would hide behind my mother. I didn't want to speak to anyone. I didn't want to go anywhere because I was really, really scared of being targeted. And that translated to joining clubs at school, cross-country meets, et cetera, et cetera. i didn't want to
00:02:29
Sab
I didn't want to put myself out there for fear of being abused, for fear fear of being targeted. Fear of kind of, you know, putting yourself out on a pedestal and then people wanting to tear you down. So I don't come from a running background. I come from a ah single parent family, you know, on the poverty line, didn't have financial resources for really for any kind of out of school activity. um So when I came to running in 2009, it was after I had my fourth child. So I have four beautiful children. Oldest is 30 this year. Youngest is will be will be 17 this year. And i had had Sicily, my fourth child. And throughout my life, I have always experienced episodes of mental illness. As a child, I didn't know what to call that feeling of never really being able to fully, ah fully feel joy because you're always worried about the bad thing that was happening.
00:03:32
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:03:33
Sab
and um And then that translated later on in life to episodes of depression. and high, you know, was a high functioning, anxious person. And um after I had CC, I fell into an episode of depression that was so deep and I fell so fast that I existed in a vacuum of darkness.
00:04:03
Sab
And I was so ill, I didn't and didn't know just quite how bad it was, but what I did know is that i could not feel joy, i could not feel happiness. I felt as though I was existing in this vacuum of motherhood.
00:04:18
Sab
At that time, I was running my own business. I was chief breadwinner in the house. I had to go back to work after two weeks. I didn't feel as though I was doing anything well and and therefore was questioning my place on earth, right? it was It was a really, really dark time. And it was at my 12 week, as many women who are carers or have babies, either biologically or who care for young children will know at 12 weeks you have a 12 week postnatal check.
00:04:53
Sab
And it was at that postnatal check where when the GP was checking over the baby, checking over me post labour and asking those questions that at the time i didn't know that they were like mental health questions, right?
00:05:07
Sab
um And she was scoring me. It became evident very, very clear, very, very quickly that I was not well. I was really not well at all.
00:05:18
Sab
And she diagnosed postnatal depression, severe postnatal depression. And as one... alongside medication and talk therapy, which she prescribed both.
00:05:31
Sab
She said to me, Sabrina, what I want you to do is like, is there anything that you can do in order to get yourself out of the bubble of family life, of at the home, of your normal surroundings?
00:05:46
Sab
You know, have you ever thought about trying jogging? And I looked at her with, ah honestly, i looked at her like she was from another planet. I was like, i look I'm five stone overweight. I have milk filled breasts from breastfeeding. The last thing I want to do is move this big jiggly body doing something that I've never done. I don't know how to do it. I don't know anyone that does it. i Like, no. No.
00:06:18
Sab
And I kind of left the appointment with the baby, the prescription, the appointment for talk therapy. And I was like, there is no way that I'm doing that. Like, why would I do that? But you know what? It was.
00:06:33
Sab
A couple of days later, and I was i was so ill. like i Even thinking about it now, I remember just like sitting and rocking backwards and forwards and thinking, again, you know these deep, dark thoughts. And I was like, some a voice came to me, and it was like, Sabs, if a doctor is telling you to try jogging,
00:06:56
Sab
then that why would they tell you to do something that was gonna make you feel worse? Like why? They're a doctor. And I went to and many people, men and women will will know this.
00:07:09
Sab
I went to the cupboard where we kept all like the old shoes, you know? and I like rummaged through the old shoes.
00:07:13
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:07:16
Sab
I found this pair of old school Dunlops. And then I was like, okay, so trainers, right? They'll have to do. And then I went, i was like, well, what am I gonna wear though?
00:07:27
Sab
Like my boobs are massive. And I found like the most the most scaffolding like maternity bra that would hold my girls as I call them up.
00:07:38
Sab
And then I went and the only the only clothes I had were like part painting clothes, like old like an old T-shirt with paint splatters on it, oversized, some jogging pants.
00:07:43
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:07:50
Sab
And I went to the place that no one would see me because I was ashamed of my body. I was ashamed of myself. I was ashamed of the person that I was. That's where depression had taken me. And it was the Canal Towpath.
00:08:04
Sab
So little did I know then that was actually my first trail run, right? But it was the place that I didn't think anyone would see me. It was the place that I could hide. It was the place that, that day in 2009, for 45 minutes, I shuffled my body. It wasn't a run. It wasn't a it was a shuffle, which was a minute walk in.
00:08:30
Sab
a minute shuffling, a minute walking. And all I could think in my head was, keep breathing, Saps. Come keep breathing, girl. Keep breathing, keep breathing. In, out, in, out.
00:08:44
Sab
Don't fall in the canal, even though your legs feel like jelly. Keep to the bent side, not the canal side. And it'll all be over soon.
00:08:54
Sab
It'll all be over soon. And you know what? I completed that, which 45 minutes, which was far too fast, but I didn't, sorry, far too far, but I didn't know any better back in the day.
00:09:04
UKRunChat
was going to say, that's gone the wrong way, isn't it?
00:09:06
Sab
i didn't know better any better back in the day.
00:09:06
UKRunChat
yeah
00:09:09
Sab
And I fell in the back door, the kitchen door, literally my legs gave way, flat on my back. And my husband looked at me and was like, are you all right?
00:09:20
Sab
And although my body felt totally broken, I realised that for 45 minutes, I hadn't had a thought about taking my own life.
00:09:35
Sab
And it was in that, it was that. freedom of mind for 45 minutes that where all I could think about was my breathing, moving forward, not falling in the canal, getting home and although my body hurt there was this little bit of like a glimmer of pride and hope that if I went out and did it again i might have another 45 minutes of that clarity of mind and that is what started my running journey.
00:10:11
UKRunChat
Wow, that's an incredible story. yeah that Yeah, that's really struck a chord. I'm sure many listeners out there will be nodding a along, having experienced similar episodes.
00:10:21
Sab
Yeah.
00:10:22
UKRunChat
and So reflecting on that run back then, were you aware kind of how how far it would take you? like
00:10:32
Sab
Oh my god.
00:10:33
UKRunChat
gosh, like, because to compare you now and you back then, just seems so vast, doesn't it?
00:10:36
Sab
Ugh.
00:10:40
UKRunChat
but
00:10:41
Sab
So vast. had idea. I could not conceive of a life that running would play such a massive part. All I wanted, and and actually, and it's really important to say this, and to this day, all I wanted was that freedom of mind.
00:11:10
Sab
All I wanted was that presence of being in the moment without the without the confusion, without the...
00:11:20
Sab
without Feeling the burden of life. I just want, and and today i still run for those reasons. Yes, I run a very long way.
00:11:30
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:11:32
Sab
and yes, some days it takes me longer to get into that space of, o okay, I can be truly present. But I had no, how could I?
00:11:44
Sab
I had no idea. Running was, I was not a runner. And it's like the second chapter of my book is is about, you know, reclaiming that concept, reclaiming that word as a woman of you are a runner.
00:12:02
Sab
I didn't. I didn't call myself a runner for months because I didn't feel as though even though I was doing this movement, what I saw externally, they weren't me.
00:12:13
Sab
The people, the the men I saw in Runner's World, which was like the main magazine back then in the day, there were they were very thin white men with short shorts and vests. Like they weren't me. So to conceive of a life that I live today where, my God, I've written a book about running for women who are those women, right?
00:12:36
Sab
This book is for those that woman that was like the beginner or that woman that is like coming back to running after a break. I would have said, just just sit over there there. That is not me. So the power of running as, like running won't save you, but as a tool within your arsenal to live a life beyond your wildest dreams, absolutely running has done that for me. And that's why I'm such an advocate of the power of this form of movement.
00:13:13
UKRunChat
Yeah, it's interesting you say that, that you weren't a runner. You even mentioned jogging. The doctor recommended jogging, didn't she? and And I hear that a lot, actually. Women will go, oh, i'm I'm not a runner, but, you know, they'll be going and doing park run at the weekend.
00:13:26
UKRunChat
why Why is that? Why are we so dismissive of our kind of our own abilities, really?
00:13:32
Sab
Yeah, I think it's conditioning. I think it's social conditioning. i talk about this a lot within the book and in the work that I do as an activist and and using running as a form of act activism in the spaces that I operate, you know, as little girls, you know, we're brought up, you know o you know sport is a boys thing, right? It's, you know, boys find it very, very easy when we look, I'm a footballer, I'm a rugby player. you know How many girls do we remember when we were little saying, you know I'm an athlete? or i'm mean ah you know i'm It's so difficult for us and um in it's so i think difficult for us in terms of from childhood right through to teenage years. We see a massive drop off of teenage girls when it comes to sporting, to actually claim a title or a sense of belonging when it comes to sport. And I think that that translates into what we see out there online and and therefore how we...
00:14:32
Sab
how we cultivate that sense of belonging right almost we've grown up thinking and I certainly I grew up thinking in order to call myself a runner I needed to look like or be like a Paula Radcliffe or I needed to be like a Kelly Holmes or I needed to be like you know I i needed to look a certain way I needed to act a certain way I needed to be a certain size I needed to run a certain pace enter a certain race in order to be a runner and it's bullshit
00:14:59
UKRunChat
Mm-hmm.
00:15:00
Sab
we if It really is a societal, systemic way that the sport has been marketed in order to consciously and subconsciously say, this is who belongs and this is who doesn't belong. And if you don't fit into this square, you know, this this box, then maybe this isn't for you.
00:15:25
Sab
Now we've seen, and and I think that that is why when it comes to the movements that we see rise, the This Girl Can movement, when it comes to more body positivity, um and when it comes to people like me and other other activists, because i don't I don't call myself an influencer at all. i an I'm an activist. I use my running as a way to... to have a platform in order to address this notion that in order to claim the title as runner, we need to do this, this, this and this. Look, if you want if you wake up in the morning and you just have a thought about running, you're a runner, right? And I talk about this within the book, around the in the mindset chapter, about the transther the trans-theoretical theory of change. It's a five-step process.
00:16:17
Sab
And as a runner, that process involves pre-contemplation, right? Listening to a podcast such as this, being inspired because you've seen someone, or you've picked up a book, or you've read a column in a magazine, or
00:16:24
UKRunChat
Yes.
00:16:34
Sab
You've been at or you've spoke to a friend or family member who have gone out and run walked for a mile and have come back and felt amazing and they want you to come and do it too. That pre-contemplation stage is part of your journey as a runner, whether you've even run a step.
00:16:51
Sab
So I absolutely empower and am so passionate about claiming that title as runner. So much so in the book, I i ask people to close their eyes and repeat after me, I am a runner.
00:17:08
Sab
I am a runner. um Because the more we say it, words have power. And I believe that they can transform as well. So it does not matter how you move. It does not matter what you look like.
00:17:22
Sab
Find your tribe and the people that uplift you and claim that mantle as runner. I did. And look where it's got me.
00:17:29
UKRunChat
Yeah, you're absolutely right. it's if If we tell ourselves we're not something, then we believe it. So we we have to tell ourselves that we're a runner.
00:17:34
Sab
That's it.
00:17:37
UKRunChat
Yeah, spot on.
00:17:37
Sab
Yeah. Words have power. yeah in In my life, I have really experienced such seismic change when I have, you know I do that thing, right?
00:17:39
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:17:48
Sab
I stand in front of the mirror and I say, today's going to be a good day. You know, what am I grateful for? Three things I'm grateful for. I am a runner.
00:18:00
Sab
I am powerful. I am strong. I can do hard things. And Saying that enough times to yourself or to others causes that shift to happen.
00:18:11
Sab
It's, you know, science proves it, right?
00:18:11
UKRunChat
yeah
00:18:13
Sab
So i empower more women and it's kind of part of what i'm here for to to to challenge the patriarchy, right?
00:18:24
Sab
To challenge the system in the sense that you wear and move what feels joyful to you.
00:18:24
UKRunChat
yeah good yeah yeah no that's fantastic So you said back when you were a child, you were you were very scared, you were anxious, you didn't speak up.
00:18:32
Sab
you are a runner.
00:18:41
UKRunChat
What what changed then? Because obviously you're you're very vocal now about being, in you know, representing yourself in your own space and being who you want to be.
00:18:52
UKRunChat
When did that change come about? Or was that it a more kind of gradual thing as you gained more confidence in your own running?
00:18:58
Sab
I think for me personally, i think as a woman, I turned 40 in 2018 and um you know, any information that's out there, I went into recovery for alcohol addiction in 2016 and have been sober since, a day at a time. And I...
00:19:22
Sab
had to really address a lot of, through my recovery journey and through being becoming a healthier, better version of myself, I had to address a lot of that childhood trauma. I had to address the reason that I sought to numb my feelings rather than seek help to address them. So,
00:19:46
Sab
so You know, that shyness as a child, it was fear. it was it was There was so much fear intertwined with fully being present in the body that I was born with, in the skin that I was born with, with the hair I was born with.
00:20:02
Sab
And through years and years of therapy, you know, that talk therapy that we that we we we spoke about, um and really understanding
00:20:09
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:20:16
Sab
understanding the abject fear and how it played out in my life and how it translated to all of my relationships and why I was a people pleaser, why I would rather say yes than say no. it was all about acceptance, right? It was all about, you know, being a good girl, people accepting me, people liking me. Where that changed for me and I think where I found my voice was it was really 2020. It was in lockdown.
00:20:44
Sab
it was in lockdown And what it came from for me was in 2019, I was taking part in a trail running event.
00:20:55
Sab
um And it was I'd started to get into mountain running and it was over in. um over in the Alps and I was traversing a very narrow path on a mountain ridge and although it was July, the path was still covered in snow and I lost my footing and I slipped off the side of the path and was holding onto to the side of the mountain. It was almost near vertical drop and I was screaming for my life. And again, you know, we'll get into talking about kind of black trail runners because it all intertwines. But I have become so used to within races, within running environments, within trail running, especially only ever being the only other the only person of color on the start line or one of very, very few people of color on the start line. It was my norm. And when it comes to being in a woman in trail running, even less, even less.
00:21:50
Sab
And um I was screaming for my life, hanging on to like, gripping onto snow that was melting in my hand. i My daughter had just had my first grandson um that year and I thought I was gonna die. And five men ran past me as if I was invisible.
00:22:11
Sab
And... ah as if they couldn't hear my screams and I couldn't understand in that moment why no one wanted to help me as a woman, as a runner in need.
00:22:26
Sab
And it was the sick man who couldn't talk English and I couldn't talk Italian and just by pure brute strength and eye contact, he pulled me up off the side of that mountain and saved my life.
00:22:37
Sab
And that You know, I was like I was 40 K into a 50 K race and I just wanted to get the hell out of there because I, you know, I was traumatized, but I had to get back because there was no way to get off this mountain without running back. So I finished the race and I reported it to the race organizers and nothing was done.
00:22:58
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:22:58
Sab
And it sent me on a journey late 2019 into 2020 where I was thinking of giving up running because I didn't feel safe, because I didn't feel seen, because the help that is so that we're told in running, if you see a runner down, you stop whether you're in a race or not and you help them. That help wasn't given to me. And my lived experience tells me that that help wasn't given quickly enough because I'm not a white woman. Because that is my lived experience is that I don't get the help that I require and that I need physically and mentally because I don't necessarily conform to what the societal norms surrounding me are. um Now, can I ever know that for certain? Absolutely not. But my lived experience tells me that. And also i
00:23:44
Sab
I just, I couldn't believe that it was happening. I couldn't believe that a sport that had given me so much that I was hanging on the precipice of basically losing my life. And then we went into 2020, didn't we?
00:23:55
Sab
And we had the murder of a black man called Armuda Arbery, a runner in America.
00:23:56
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:23:59
Sab
We had George Floyd. We had Black Lives Matter. We had COVID. And I just wanted to find...
00:24:09
Sab
a community that would center her my experience as a woman, as a woman of color, but also in that time, you know, our local town had a, ah you know, Black Lives Matter rally.
00:24:24
Sab
And in that rally, I went and I'd never ever done anything. I'd never spoken up about my experiences of racism. I'd never spoken up about what it was to move my body as a woman in this world.
00:24:37
Sab
And ah something happened in that rally and I stood up and I spoke about my experiences living in the town that I lived in. And in that day, and I talk about it within my first book, Black Sheep, something inside me just said no more.
00:24:57
Sab
I can't be silent to injustice anymore. I can't be silent to what it is being a woman in this world. And and a woman of colour, and a mother, and the mother of three daughters. I can't, if there's one thing that I can do, it's to use my voice as a vehicle for conversation, change, and from that moment onwards, something just changed inside me. It it was like this opening of this this box of
00:25:37
Sab
of you know sharing pain, sharing joy, using any platform I had in order to advocate for people like me, and I'm not just talking about people of black heritage, women, mothers, people who are experiencing mental illness, people who...
00:25:56
Sab
People who have felt a sense of not belonging in these spaces, not belonging in running, not being able to claim that mantle as runner. And every single day that someone says to me, Sabs, I heard you on something or I saw you or I read this thing that you wrote and I saw myself in that is a day that I'm like, I know I'm doing what I'm supposed i'm supposed to do. I know that I'm supposed to be here doing this. So that's really where that confidence comes from and how it grows day on day.
00:26:29
UKRunChat
Yeah, I'm really sorry you had that experience. That sounds absolutely terrifying. But I guess without that, that may not necessarily have sparked what's happened since.
00:26:38
Sab
That's it.
00:26:39
UKRunChat
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:39
Sab
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's what I see in, um and it's unfortunate, right? and And I say that, but then i've I've done a lot of therapy around this. You know, in my life, i I've had to, in I've had to i want to say endure, because it is to endure. I've had to exist and I've had to live through situations that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy. Yeah.
00:27:05
Sab
and And it's been so, so tough. But actually, war without it, I wouldn't be here talking to you today.
00:27:15
UKRunChat
Yeah, yeah. yeah
00:27:16
Sab
And I'm grateful to be here talking to you today because of the the platform that you have and the... people that might be listening to this. um So I do believe, I'm a firm believer, my granny used to say to me, so Sabrina, everything happens for a reason.
00:27:34
Sab
What's for you won't go by you. And without all of those things, without that moment in 2019 of hanging on the side of that mountain and screaming, I would never have sought to find...
00:27:51
Sab
a community that at that time didn't exist and which I went on to create. I would never have felt so compelled at that Black Lives Matter rally to to say I have to speak up because I've had these things happen to me and no one spoke up for me. So if no one's going to speak up for me, then I have to be my own advocate and maybe an advocate for others. And and it's also...
00:28:18
Sab
I believe resilience, you're not born with it. It's built brick by brick, um day by day. And without that deep well of resilience being built through my life experiences and how that's translated to running, I wouldn't be able to run the distances that I run now. So I wouldn't change a thing.
00:28:40
UKRunChat
oh that's yeah that's really good to hear so tell us a little bit about black trail runners then how did that start
00:28:45
Sab
I'm so honestly, I just, I feel so blessed um in that period that I was telling you about where I was search i was searching, I was searching for community, i was searching for a community where I didn't have to explain myself, I didn't have to hide, I didn't have to pat down my hair, i did i didn't, that I could just be surrounded by people that got it, that understood what it is to move through this world in the skin the ah you know, in that we do. And,
00:29:28
Sab
And I looked after that experience in the mountains. I was looking for a community that centered black people and people of color within trail running. Because when I came to trail running in 2016, as I said to you, like, I was like, oh, it's another running space that is dominate, you know, is dominated by people of white heritage, you know, and.
00:29:51
Sab
And look, I'd grown up around in those spaces. So therefore, for me, navigating that, it's okay, this is just my norm. And I will stand out, but, you know, I'll just do my do my thing. I'll keep my head down, et cetera.
00:30:06
Sab
And that that community didn't exist. There was not a community that the trail running that, centered black people and people of color, um centered those voices that want to see a more ethnically diverse running space. and And I was like, what where is it?
00:30:28
Sab
I mean, I wanted to travel for it. I was willing to travel to be part of this community and it didn't exist. And I spoke to a friend, well, he's a friend now, he wasn't a friend then, a man called Charlie Dark, who created Rundem Crew um in London.
00:30:44
Sab
And I reached out to Charlie, because I loved what Rundem Crew were doing. And i it was on Instagram, and I said, hey, Charlie, you don't know me, I don't know you, but I love what you're doing with Rundem Crew, and I love the inclusive ethos of the crew, but I don't live in London, um and I'm a trail runner.
00:31:00
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:31:01
Sab
do you do anything in trail because I'm willing to travel and he came back to me and he said we don't do trail but I've got a mate who likes the outdoors you should maybe speak to him and he was a guy called Phil and he's one of the co-founders of Black Trail Runners and we got on the Zoom In lockdown, we chatted for hours about the outdoors and about running. And then we made, then we basically said to each other, look, let's go out and see if we can find anyone else that's like trail runners that are ah people of color.
00:31:40
Sab
We went out we found Sonny Peer and we found Rachel Dench and I welcomed in Dora a team. And a couple of months later, we were like, you know what, we've been talking enough.
00:31:52
Sab
Should we just launch something? And what should we call it? And what should it be? Okay, it's going to be a community and campaigning group because we want to be advocates and activists within this space. and Let's call it what it is on the tin, like black trail runners.
00:32:05
Sab
And we launched it in July 2020. And it went crazy around from people around the world saying, finally, a community that centers our experience and one of our first letters you know we are campaigning charity now so one of our first letters was an open letter to race organizers saying look you know 4.4 percent at that time of the uk population identify as black or black mix yet our data shows and data we had collected from race organizers who
00:32:09
UKRunChat
password.
00:32:36
Sab
who were really wanted to see a more ethnically diverse running scene. um And the data showed that less than 0.7% of race entrants were black people and people of color.
00:32:46
Sab
um And that's where it all started. And like, wow, five and a half years it's...
00:32:50
UKRunChat
Thank
00:32:54
Sab
Honestly, day to day, I look at what we do. i look at our membership base. I look at our events. I look at, you know, Black to the Trails, which is the most ethnically diverse trail running ah ah event in the UK. And I'm like, how did we get here?
00:33:11
Sab
I am so grateful. and And the key thing that I will say to anyone listening to this is, Black trail runners centres the lived experience and centres black people and people of colour within trail running. But if you are a white person and you want to look around you and you want to see a representation of the global community at your races, at your events, at your running clubs, you You can be a member too. Like, this is not like, oh my God, you can't join if you're white. If you want to see a more ethnically diverse running space, trail running space, come, help us to do it Help, be a member, because you know what we found with our members who are our white members? They get asked when they wear the Black Trail Runners t-shirts or the buffs or the hats or the socks or the jackets or the leggings.
00:34:07
Sab
They get asked more questions about Black Trail Runners than we do. Because there is this feeling, isn't there, as to people worry about saying the wrong thing or asking the wrong question.
00:34:11
UKRunChat
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:18
Sab
And the great thing about having white allies within Black Trail Runners, white members, is that they do the hard work for us because they're like, well, I'm a member of Black Trail Runners because i want to see a more ethnically diverse running space.
00:34:33
Sab
I believe in what this small charity does. And like, look, I'm here, I'm representing, I go to the events, I wear the kit. I, you know, it's it's so, so important.
00:34:46
Sab
So please, I think that's one of the biggest, one of the questions I get asked all the time is, but can I join? I'm like, you absolutely can.
00:34:56
UKRunChat
That's really good to know. but Thank you. So what what differences have you been making in those last kind of five and a half years? And what are you most proud of?
00:35:04
Sab
I think, oh my God, there are so many things I'm most proud of. So when it comes to increasing the engagement of ethnically diverse communities in trail running, black trail runners are at the forefront of that. And we we know that by the data that we collect. so their sort So if we look at the UK events industry in particular, Three years ago, we launched, we have an idea for, we work with a lot of event organizers. um And since day one, when we when we launched that open letter, we said to event organizers, what we want is that we want to we want to work very, very closely with you in order to for you to understand better what are the barriers to access for black people of people of and people of color within the running space.
00:35:53
Sab
and how you can make your events more inclusive, more open to these communities. What does that look like? What do you need to do? What language do you need to use? What imagery do you need to use? What do your volunteers need to look like, et cetera, et cetera.
00:36:07
Sab
So over the years, we've been working with a lot of the big names when it comes to trail running from threshold events right through to London Marathon events to events. to Arraya events, Beyond the Ultimate, June North, ah just like most of the you know the the events that you see out there, large and small. And how we work with them is that they become our event partners. So we ensure that our members are totally engaged with their events. And also we we turn up, we go along, We volunteer.
00:36:40
Sab
They send us their ethnicity data to every six months. So we're able to really keep a good track of what our work is doing in terms of having impact upon their businesses and their events and the wider trail running scene in general. But in 2022, we wanted to really take that to the next level. And what we thought is, what if we held our own event that is organized by Black people and people of color, the volunteers of Black people and people of color and white allies, and it's a really accessible event When you go there, you know you're at Black Trail Runners event by the smell of the food, Caribbean, African, halal food, the music, DJs, the colors, the really, it's it's it's a carnival. It's the Notting Hill Carnival of trail running. We launched it in 2023.
00:37:24
Sab
Every single year it is sold out. It's got bigger every year. It takes place every May. Big news for next year with another event that we're going to be having. Every May in Dunstable Downs.
00:37:36
Sab
Accessible distances for all the family from 1K right up to our Scotch Bonnet 10K, which is our Hilly 10K. So 1K, 5K, flat 10K. hilly 10k, under 16s go free, sold out every year, 70% people of colour, 65% female 25% under It is the most joyful and twenty five percent under sixteens it is the most joyful inclusive event in trail running that there is in the yeah UK and it's only getting bigger. And we know from the data that we keep we collect, we use Let's Do This as our event entry platform. And when our event is um held up against other events, of course, we blow them out of the park, having 70% people of color, but also in terms of the engagement of black people within the UK trail running scene, we are, the data shows that we are bringing more black people and people of color to running via the initiatives that we have. so Black to the Trails is our largest public event. Tickets on sale for next year, people. Come along. If there is one event of the year you've got to be at, bring the kids, bring the husband, bring your grandparents, bring your mums and dads. It is the event.
00:38:52
Sab
um but Or volunteer. Come help us make it happen. but also So next year, it's the 10th of May, Dunstable Downs. um the most breathtaking location, National Trust on Dunstable Downs um and Whipsnade Estate. But also we have trail taster days four times a year where for the whole day we will work in the morning on skills, trail running skills that might be navigation, it might be how to trail run, it might be going up and down hills. In January we've got a night running trail taster day Epping Forest.
00:39:26
Sab
um So we have those, those are led by Black Trail Runners, free to attend for Black Trail Runners members. it's it is It creates community, people make new friends and then in the afternoon we go out and run.
00:39:38
Sab
We have social runs that take place every week, led by Black Trail Runners qualified run leaders and run coaches. um So around the UK, London, Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Exeter.
00:39:50
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:39:52
Sab
We're new in Scotland for next year. um And as well as that, we have a plethora of different events that we show up at, from your likes of Race to the Stones, to park runs, to road 10Ks. Even though we're trail runners, we'll do road 5Ks and 10Ks and a half marathons. um So we really work on the tenets of like addressing access skills and representation. um And yeah, I mean, there is just so much going on.
00:40:21
Sab
The UK is our hub, but our membership is global. So we have a huge contingent in Washington DC, huge contingent in Amsterdam, huge contingent in the UK, big contingent within London.
00:40:24
UKRunChat
Yes.
00:40:34
Sab
um And what we find is that our city hubs, they do drive more members because what we've got to remember is that ethnically diverse communities in the UK have been urbanised.
00:40:45
Sab
So therefore, in those, but we don't forget people like me who have grown up in the countryside and who feel that sense of isolation too. So we continue to do great things.
00:40:57
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah, that's amazing. So what's what's the vision then for but like the next five years?
00:41:02
Sab
Oh my God, the vision for the next five years um is to very much focus on continuing to build. We've got some big news happening on Black to the Trails and also to really build upon our young person's pathway. We very much believe that there are future London Marathon winners, Ultra Trail de Mont Blanc winners, trail running podiumers, but we have to create talent pathways and we have to work with industry in order to do that now we can see that that you know 16 to 24 and even younger that the this the talent is there we see it at black to the trails in the the kids races that we have or in the races where young people are allowed to race which is our 1k and 5k which is open to under fifteens um
00:41:57
Sab
The talent's there, but what's happened is that historically that talent hasn't been nurtured because not enough resource, financial resource, human resource, strategic planning has gone into creating talent pathways for underrepresented communities. So what we're really focusing on on the next, certainly the the kind of short to medium term, is developing a young person's talent pathway via black trail runners and partners. We are supported by Adidas Tarex here in the yeah UK and they with us are very, very keen on looking at what a talent pathway looks like, looking at how we can very much nurture upcoming talent and provide a pathway from other groups that we work with, such as the Outrunners and Trail Fam and Alpine Run Project here in the yeah UK and take them through the Black Trail Runners pathway into that adult space and really nurture that talent for feud future generations. elite athletes in trail running.
00:42:51
Sab
We know that we have them, but know small no community or charity or organization has really taken the lead in doing that. And that's very much where we see our work going forward. Always, though, to remember our core market is, well, and I know that because i look at the this because I look at the data all the time, is your 35 plus men and women, more women of color who are getting into trail running. So they're not doing ultra marathons, they're getting into trail running, they're going up to like half marathons throughout their trail running journey. We will never, ever forget that core demographic, but ultimately,
00:43:35
Sab
We need to be handing over the baton, right? We need to be saying, look, this is a space for you.
00:43:38
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:43:40
Sab
Go do your thing. So that's really where we see ourselves going forward is really nurturing that.
00:43:46
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's exciting. Are you seeing, as you're out doing trail races, are you seeing more representation from your communities then that you're representing?
00:43:55
Sab
I think that I certainly am seeing a shift. That shift is slow.
00:44:01
UKRunChat
Yeah. Yeah, it's going to take time, isn't it?
00:44:03
Sab
that i still It is going to take time.
00:44:05
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:44:06
Sab
These things, when you're looking, because what we're looking for is systemic change, right?
00:44:09
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:44:11
Sab
It doesn't happen overnight. And will the job be done before I... i vacate this this earth. no it's, you know, it is going, it takes work, it takes time.
00:44:23
Sab
But what i do see is I see for those individuals, those brands, those communities that really, have that authentic intention to want to see a more ethnically diverse running space, a more inclusive across the board. So ethnically diverse ethnicity being one of those areas of inclusion, wanting to see more more women, more lesser less able-bodied people, more members of the LGBTQIA plus community, et cetera.
00:44:57
Sab
Those people that really do want to see a more inclusive sport are really and are really intentional, about the execution of what that looks like, those are the people, those are the individuals, those are the events, those are the brands where I'm seeing the change happening.
00:45:13
Sab
But it takes work and it takes commitment. So I'm only interested in working with those people that that really understand that this isn't like, it ain't just one photo of a black person on your website, right? It's not about a free pair of trainers. it's a It's a portfolio of different initiatives that you can implement and you don't have to implement them all at once because that's what people worry about. it's like I can't do it all. I've got, no, small steps, big change is what I say.
00:45:49
Sab
um and And it can be done and we can see that shift. And absolutely, I see it, but it's slow.
00:45:58
UKRunChat
Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:58
Sab
But I think the best things are built slowly, you know? And I see it in my running, right? You start, you start the the the title of my book, yeah we start where we are.
00:46:10
Sab
Wherever you are in that journey, it's that pre-contemplative decision that I want to do something. As a, you know, the the people that I want to buy my next book is like, I think I want to try this running thing, you know.
00:46:27
Sab
But I've got no bloody idea where to try and who do I ask? And I don't want to look silly or I don't want to ask a silly question. There is no silly question. I almost called this book your pocket cheerleader because that's what i want it to be.
00:46:38
UKRunChat
yeah
00:46:40
Sab
It's like, I've got a question about that. Has she covered that in the book? Likelihood is yes, I have. I cover a lot within the book.
00:46:47
UKRunChat
So what's in there? What can people expect from it?
00:46:50
Sab
So what people can expect in there is you've got your, you know, claim that title of runner, the mindset part of it. You've got what kit? white look what's what What's the essential kit to have? Do you need it? If you need it, here's why you need it. And here's where you might go to get it.
00:47:07
Sab
it's It's how do I run though? Like, how do what you know How do I even do it? How do I breathe properly? How do I, if I come to a hill, oh my God, the amount of women that I have coached since 2016 that are like, I just dodged the hill, Sabs. If I see a hill, I just go around I'm like, no, a hill is a mound of opportunity. Like this is like, you've got embrace these hills. So we talk about hills. We talk about menopause, perimenopause. We talk about periods.
00:47:38
Sab
We talk about nutrition. Yes, nutrition matters even when you're a beginner runner because you've got to have the energy in there to get out and and run with joy, right?
00:47:50
Sab
If what we're doing is we're fasting before running, we're not getting enough calories in us before the run, during the run, if we want to take a snack out on a 5K, we can take a snack out and post run.
00:48:02
Sab
You talk about strength training in there as well. um There are so many different things that I go into. Safety. It's a massive topic, right?
00:48:10
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:48:12
Sab
Safety as a woman. But the one thing I wanted with this book is that I never, ever wanted it to be just my voice. So what I did when I was writing it is I put a call out to women globally.
00:48:26
Sab
If they had ever, which we all have, been a beginner or come back, share your stories with me. Let me share them through the pages did of this book with that woman who might feel as though she doesn't belong here, might be worried about what she looks like or the fact that she doesn't have the financial income to ah to get the latest technical kit.
00:48:50
Sab
here's Here's the thing. You don't need the latest technical kit, okay? And, show like you know, it helped me to inspire them. And the women really turned up. The women, they really turned up. So this book's dotted with stories of from women around the world who have been in exactly that same situation as well. So it really is a a book of, like, a love letter, really, to any any woman who thinks in 2026, know what?
00:49:23
Sab
um I'm gonna have a go, wanna have a go, and I just want a friend that can kind of help me. And this is, yeah, in the absence of being it me being able to meet every single woman, it's like, here, here's my love letter to you.
00:49:37
UKRunChat
Yeah, so that's Start Where You Are. That's out on the 15th of January.
00:49:40
Sab
Yep, it is. Start where you are. The Beginner's 5K Running Guide for Women is the subtitle. But yeah, it's out on the 15th of January. All good bookshops and online bookshops.
00:49:53
UKRunChat
What barrier would you remove for women if you could?
00:49:58
Sab
i would The barrier I would remove for women, if I really could, was, and I have to say it, it's feeling unsafe. I wish that there was a way um that I could alleviate more of that fear for women when they go out running. I do as much as I can in you know the women's running groups that i that I lead, that I coach, in sharing tips tricks communities that women can run with in order to feel safe safe spaces when it comes to races but ultimately you know what I say and I will say this to any you know males out there that might be listening it's about being an active bystander as a male as well and
00:50:45
Sab
advocating and ensuring that you are, that you are stepping back in order to help to create those safe spaces for women. i mean, i think there's been a lot of chat over the past couple of weeks about the Nike After Dark event and, um,
00:51:02
Sab
You know, safety is something that we have to grapple with all the time when we decide to go out running, whether that's in the day, whether it's at night, whether it's alone, whether it's with friends. And I wish that more could be done in order to create more safe spaces for women, for female runners so that we didn't have to run with that feeling, which we all have. And I still have it of is it safe to run here?
00:51:31
Sab
So that's that's that's a barrier that I will continue to try and try and do what I can in order to bring it down for women.
00:51:40
UKRunChat
Yeah. Oh, thanks, Sabrina. and Thank you. i can't believe that's been nearly an hour of chatting.
00:51:45
Sab
I know!
00:51:48
UKRunChat
I've got so many more questions, but I don't want to keep you so long. So I'll just ask one, like, what's what's next for you personally? Because you've done UTMB this year, haven't you? Last year, sorry, we're putting this out in January.
00:51:58
Sab
Yeah, yeah, yeah um i I got 80.88 miles around UTMB before the race spat me out.
00:52:02
UKRunChat
Yeah, wow. Wow.
00:52:05
Sab
So i oh my goodness.
00:52:06
UKRunChat
It's a beast, though, right? It's...
00:52:09
Sab
You know, it it has been a bucket list race for so long and I got the opportunity to run it. I was picked out in the ballot in January, 2025.
00:52:21
Sab
I have unfinished business there.
00:52:23
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:52:23
Sab
So my plan is to go for it again this year and to do all of the work that I can do in the areas that I need to work on to finish that lap around the Mont Blanc Massif.
00:52:37
Sab
108 miles, 10,000 meters of ascent, 46 and a half hours to do it That is my target for next year. I raced a lot in 2025. I did far too many races.
00:52:49
Sab
And it took a lot out of me and I'm not going to be making that mistake again in 2026. So that's my big goal.
00:52:57
UKRunChat
Wow, just give us a flavour of what it's like out there. I can't imagine what it must be like to be on those trails in that race.
00:53:01
Sab
Oh, my It's, oh my God, it was so, you know, we had a pretty difficult edition in 2025 in the sense of the rain started from, you know, I'm a UK runner.
00:53:14
Sab
I run in rain. I run in mud. I'm used to that, right? What none of us were used to was being at the top of two and a half thousand meter mountain with a snowstorm at three in the morning on the brink of hyperthermia.
00:53:29
Sab
You know, 400 runners basically at the aid station or coming off that mountain basically were in the early stages of hypothermia um there is being stuck behind a single line of runners who are not are not running right ultra ultra marathons you know as's anyone that knows and that does trail running like it includes a lot of walking a lot of fast hiking a lot of crawling and some running right and
00:53:53
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:53:58
Sab
nothing can prepare you for that. It's August, right? You're like, oh, well, you know, it's the Europe in August. But when you bring the mountains into it, it's a whole different ballgame. And, you know, it's the most epic race. You know, that start line, two and a half thousand people, Conquest of Paradise playing. You know, you feel like a rock and roll star. The crowds are epic. But very, very quickly, you realize exactly what you have taken on. And it really starts to hit you. That first climb coming out of Les Contamines up to the first significant kind of you're in the mountains proper, which is called the Benhommes. And that first night, I think that it was...
00:54:41
Sab
I mean, it was a war zone. It was a war zone in the checkpoint where there were people shivering with foil blankets on. And that was only 30 miles in, right?
00:54:52
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:54:53
Sab
i e went into a massive, massive calorie deficit because what although I knew exactly what nutrition I needed to take on board every hour...
00:55:03
Sab
When you're at the top of the mountain and you're having to make a decision between ripping open a food wrapper or taking off your gloves, a lot of people made the decision that you would keep your gloves on. So you would take, you'd be taken on board the food you needed to, but what you weren't necessarily taken on board was the additional calories your body needed in order to heat itself up. So, so many people struggled with like energy like depth you know that there wasn't enough energy in their body and certainly that was the case for me and nothing that I took on board for 50 miles after that was hitting the spot um and I had to make a decision you know anyone listening to this podcast that
00:55:44
Sab
is a back-of-the-pack runner and has had to chase cut-offs in a race, will know how horrific that is. you You don't get a chance to rest. You don't get a chance to sleep. You don't get a chance to sit down and eat a meal. You're literally doing everything, moving, battling checkpoints. And I battled until I was spat out at Champagne Lac, which was 80 miles in. And I was i was absolutely devastated. i was I trained for eight solid months for this race. I had done everything that I thought I had to do.
00:56:24
Sab
um i felt a sense of shame and embarrassment. um All those feelings that we feel when we don't hit that mark,
00:56:35
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:56:36
Sab
And it took me a couple of months to even be able to think about that race again. Look at the photos. Look at the videos. um But then i believe that every everything that we don't complete, if we want to, is an opportunity to learn.
00:56:55
Sab
And when I started to look at what I could learn from it and who the woman that I am, I'm all like, this is unfinished business. like I've got to go back. If I can go back, I've got to go back.
00:57:06
Sab
So I want to go back this year.
00:57:06
UKRunChat
yeah
00:57:08
Sab
And actually the UTMB ballot is on the 21st of January. So it's kind of like Christmas Day for mountain runners.
00:57:13
UKRunChat
oh
00:57:17
Sab
It's like, did you get in or did you not get in? um So yeah, um i I went pretty ape. um I got pretty excited in 2025 when I found out that I got my space.
00:57:30
Sab
So we will see what happens in January. Yeah, yeah this this month.
00:57:35
UKRunChat
Yeah, well, best of luck with that. yeah I really hope you manage to achieve it.
00:57:37
Sab
Thank you.
00:57:39
UKRunChat
sure you will. You're very determined.
00:57:40
Sab
I hope so. no I hope so. You know, and I have to believe it, right?
00:57:42
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:57:43
Sab
So I've been saying in the mirror, I'm going to be doing UTMB this year. I'm doing UTMB this year. I've booked my accommodation. I've booked my training weekends away.
00:57:54
Sab
I'm i'm doing UTMB this year. Speak it and it will become the truth.
00:58:04
UKRunChat
Oh, well, thank you so much. You are a joy to chat to, honestly, and I wish you all the very best.
00:58:08
Sab
Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.
00:58:10
UKRunChat
and And if you're listening and want to start running or know a woman who wants to take that very first step, Sabrina's new book is available now. We'll share the link on all our socials as well as kind of all the all the links to and Black Trail Runners and Sabrina's um Instagram pages.
00:58:26
Sab
Oh, thank you.
00:58:28
UKRunChat
Thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time.