Transcript
UKRunChat: Hello, welcome to the UK Run Chat Podcast. I'm Michelle, and today I'm very excited to be joined by Jen and Sim Benson, ultra runners, photographers, authors.
UKRunChat: and A lot of people will already know your name, Jen and Sim. Thank you so much for joining us. and But for those who don't, please, could you give us a little bit of your backstory and just tell us how each of you got into running?
Jen & Sim: Yeah thanks so much for having us on it was great to to meet um yeah well ah I'll start um yeah I've always run so I think it's something I started doing as a teenager with my dad and um and then kind of had a bit of a break as a lot of people do through early kind of 20s and then um yeah had a bit of a car crash in my early twenty s and and uh kind of rediscovered that the joy of moving and moving more quickly and got into...
Jen & Sim: road running marathons and things and then tried a trail race and was completely sold on that. So that was about 20, 24 years ago, something like that now.
Jen & Sim: and So quite quite a long time ago. I've since run through few kids and, yeah, sort of gone into ultras and, yeah, the longer the better now, really. Yeah.
UKRunChat: So what's what's the longest one that you've done then?
Jen & Sim: and I did the Archipatrician 100.
UKRunChat: Wow. Yeah, that's a tough thing.
Jen & Sim: <unk>s um
Jen & Sim: and
UKRunChat: Yeah, what about you, Sim?
Jen & Sim: yes and me and say i' I've sort of always been very active, but I started off more as as of a climber and a mountaineer. and and ah sort really liked moving fast through the mountains. and sort over Over the years, in my early 20s, guess,
Jen & Sim: i I sort of started running to keep myself fitter for climbing. And then a few years later, I sort of realized that actually I loved going running and I went running much more often than I went climbing.
Jen & Sim: And actually maybe I was a runner rather than a climber. um So I sort of fell through into it from a, like it's a really convenient, brilliant sport that you can get out if you've got half an hour, if you've got an hour, it's a really good time.
Jen & Sim: Whereas with climbing, it's like you really needed at least half a day. So, yeah. and And I guess sort of from that, my very favourite sort of style of running is is basically just being able to move fast through the mountains. So you can not necessarily climb an actual mountain, but like traverse around in mountainous terrain.
Jen & Sim: and But with so much less kit and covering so much more ground in in whatever time. and So yeah, that's, I guess that's my favorite type of running.
Jen & Sim: But yeah, like, like Jen, we've sort of, we've both, we've both done sort of the park run, we've done marathons and triathlon and stuff like that as well.
Jen & Sim: And yeah, lots of, lots of ultras, which, which are a lot of fun because it's, it's like a, an amazing excuse to go and explore a really cool place basically. Yeah.
UKRunChat: So what keeps drawing the ultras then?
Jen & Sim: yeah
UKRunChat: What is it about the ultra distance that you both seem to really be passionate about?
Jen & Sim: I think for me, it's like a supported adventure. So, and like one of the things like I've written about women, women's ultra running, women's running in general in ah in a previous book.
Jen & Sim: And one of the things that really stands out from having interviewed lots of women and my own experiences is, is that perhaps when we think about going on a big, long adventure,
Jen & Sim: We don't necessarily feel we can do that as easily as men can. it's not It's not a simple decision in the same way. We need to think about where we're going, how we're going to stay safe, hold all these extra things that come into it. And I think for me, I love being out in the mountains, but there's a lot of anxiety about doing that if it's a kind of self-organized adventure.
Jen & Sim: Whereas on an ultra, you've usually got a tracker, You've often got way markers to follow. You've got other people keeping in company. You've got aid stations. So it's like it' like an adventure, but in a supported way with camaraderie with other runners and and and this big, brilliant community that but is ultra running as well. So I think for me, it's being able to have adventures in these incredible places I'd love to go to on my own, but would maybe have a little bit more anxiety about if there weren't other people there.
Jen & Sim: So I think that's that's why I love them. Yeah. I think, I think for me, it's like you get like, whether it's like 50 K under miles, whatever, but you, you go to an amazing place.
Jen & Sim: And I think all the, all longer races I've done have been somewhere where I've really wanted to go. And I haven't necessarily known the area that well. um And you can, you can go and basically explore the whole place in a weekend on the race.
Jen & Sim: And then, and then you, you sort of, you go past these amazing places and it means the next time you go there that you've got like you remember that section of trail or you sort of saw that hill or that valley or that bit of coastline and like next time you can go and sort of base yourself there and spend a bit more time doing each bit but it's like it's such a brilliant way of like actually just going and doing whole section of coast or a whole mountain range or or whatever that it's it's brilliant and it's it's like a definite time as well because life's so busy and if you've got a race booked it's like I am definitely doing this on this weekend and like other stuff can fit around that and I quite like that
UKRunChat: Yeah, no, it its it is a good way to explore. I agree with you. that It's like that typical Runa cliche, driving past someone, you're like, I've run there.
Jen & Sim: yeah yeah very much and yeah yeah and we've we've sort of run like
UKRunChat: wait
Jen & Sim: written like especially in the uk like running guidebooks and um walking guides and things so like normally i can i know what the bits are like but there are definitely bits we haven't been to yet and so if you find a race that's in a place we haven't been it's like yeah i'll do that
UKRunChat: is Is there any way you really like want to explore next? Where are you? Where would you like to go? guess you've you've kind of done a lot of the UK, haven't you?
Jen & Sim: yeah but Yeah, but I haven't raced in Scotland. You've done the arm in Scotland, haven't you? haven't I haven't raced in Scotland, which I'd like to. and And I had a go at TDS last year, and one of the UTMB races, and got halfway around. And I'd quite like to go and see the second half of that at some point.
Jen & Sim: Yeah.
UKRunChat: ah What was that like? Tell us a little bit about that. That seems like one of kind of the more elite races, isn't it, really? there's there's a It's a very popular event. What was it like?
Jen & Sim: Yeah, so it's so it's part of the UTMB week, but it's one of the first races that happens. So it's a similar distance and elevation and game to UTMB, but it's on much less green trails. So a lot of people say it's harder than actual UTMB, the main race.
Jen & Sim: and And it starts in Cormaier in Italy and then runs to Chamonix via some more secluded valleys. So it's a lot less crowded, a lot less green trails.
Jen & Sim: and and some quite big climbs, some big elevation. home And it starts at midnight in Cormier, which is very difficult. So it's just like, I didn't sleep the night before.
Jen & Sim: And then you you don't, because you're worried at the race and then you start at midnight. So you're running into the night. So you're absolutely wrecked before you start.
UKRunChat: um girl Yeah, that's whole thing in itself, isn't it?
Jen & Sim: and Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: Yeah. So I found that but difficult. And then, and But it's an absolutely stunning course, really, really beautiful. And I think it was my first time, it was my first race abroad, my first kind of experience, these big mountain races with so many people. and Like the start is just chaos. so So many people.
Jen & Sim: m And I think I had to catch the train back. And that was my main reason for stopping because I thought, If I carry on, I don't know if I'm going to be able to get back. and So I was on my own there and I just thought I've got no safety net.
Jen & Sim: And so i was really happy have got halfway around. And I thought, OK, I can do this. So I'll come back at some point, maybe when Sim's there as well.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Is that something you do together?
Jen & Sim: Yeah, think there are definitely races we'd like to do together. Like once the kids are older, you're going look after themselves. We've got quite a big tick list. Yeah.
UKRunChat: So do you have to kind of doggle family with one of your racing at the moment? Is that how it works? Yeah.
Jen & Sim: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. But yeah, we've got one at school, um one here, we homeschool. So it' it's um it's always a juggle, but less so now than it was when they were tiny.
UKRunChat: Yeah. yeah you You do well to manage it. and so's So tell us little bit about your new book then. So it's called Ultra and it's the World Atlas of Ultramarathons. So just just describe to us what it's like before people can kind of have a look at it for themselves. So it's it's got the maps in of all the races, hasn't it
Jen & Sim: Yeah, so it's like we we wanted it to be a sort a coffee table type book, like a menu almost of some amazing places and and and races around the world.
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: um sort of lots Lots of the like the really classic, obvious ones like UTMB, like Western States, things like that all around.
Jen & Sim: but um But also lots of races that um are a little bit less um sort less obvious, and especially, i mean, it depends where you are in the world, but and in the UK, I feel like you you hear a lot about the sort of the European races, North American races,
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: You hear things like comrades in in Africa, but but there are loads, like there are, there there's just as big racing basically all around the world. um So, yeah, so we had a bit of a trawl and sort of, I mean, we spent 25 years researching it effectively, sort of reading all the all the books as they come out.
Jen & Sim: and sort of talking to loads of people that we know and race directors and things. And then we've, yeah, we've, so we've picked, I guess, what our, maybe our favourite hundred,
Jen & Sim: um well there is definitely like there is a sort of spread around the world so um we couldn't just put 100 in europe um then for each race there's some amazing pictures to sort of show you what the terrain would be like um there's the map itself of the ah course um and an elevation profile and there's some pretty amazing contrasts from like a 100k race in uh sort of on the salt plans in Africa, which I think has got 20 metres of ascent in the whole thing, um ri which is basically one small hill.
UKRunChat: Thank you.
Jen & Sim: um Up until sort of at the other end, there's is like a 100 miler with 13,500 metres of ascent. So the elevation profiles are quite interesting. And then we sort of found so was some of the key facts, like the fastest times, how long you're allowed to take,
Jen & Sim: um sort of how much they are and um and that sort of thing um and put put that in as well and another thing was we interviewed some people who'd done the races so that was a really nice thing to do as well yeah like with the salt pans ultra that sim was talking about um harvey lewis who's a really well-known ultra runner had done it so um he was really happy to chat and actually we've included quite a bit of his kind of personal experience of doing the race in it um and that's one of the great things about being in the ultra running community is people love talking about the ultras they've done so um yeah and as soon as there are so many books about like lots of people write books about their experiences running ultras so again that's that's been a really good resource um and race directors like
UKRunChat: Yeah, they do, don't they? Yeah.
Jen & Sim: we've tapped into communities in like places like New Zealand there's a massive ultra running community there and and they're just so enthusiastic and we've been given this itinerary when we next go go to New Zealand we have to do this race and this race and this race and it's like it's just brilliant and and yeah just the enthusiasm of and for race directors all over the world has been really kind of yeah heartwarming I think yeah yeah it's been brilliant and And like we had some um language barriers, but everyone was just so brilliant. like
Jen & Sim: They really wanted to be involved and were really helpful. And it was really interesting, the overall sort of just love of running that we got from all of these people all around the world was was really cool. And it sort I guess, justified the book a bit.
Jen & Sim: e
UKRunChat: It is a wonderful community, isn't it? And it's wherever you are in the world. I think it just it gels you together, doesn't it? You've got you've got ultra running in common. It's wonderful.
Jen & Sim: yeah but
UKRunChat: yeah So how did you decide which races went in the book? Because obviously, but you know, ultra running is is huge. It's booming, isn't it? Really? What was what was kind of on your wish list for a book for a race to make it into the book?
Jen & Sim: I think we wanted like the uber classic ones, so Marathon du Sable and UTMB the the real kind of the ones everyone's heard of.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: and
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: And then we wanted some really niche ones, um sort of ones with, like there's there's one in Mongolia, which only has about 50 participants each year. So there's some really small reaches as well.
Jen & Sim: and And we obviously needed a good geographical spread around the world. So that dictated to a certain extent, like there were loads we knew about in Europe, but we had to kind of trim those down more than we wanted to and then do more research in places we didn't know so well. So that's been really good as well.
Jen & Sim: and I think, yeah, it's just getting that balance between the ones people would expect to be in there and then like slightly ah on more unusual surprise races that they might not heard of. and And then, yeah, just making sure we we covered everywhere that we could within one book.
Jen & Sim: So I think i feel like we could do like a whole volume of encyclopedias on ultra running.
UKRunChat: I've had a
Jen & Sim: Yeah, yeah. It could have easily been a thousand other than the fact that it would have been. there times right
Jen & Sim: but yeah like
UKRunChat: very kind of picture interest in the book through researching that you think I really want to do that.
Jen & Sim: yeah
Jen & Sim: Yes, yes, pretty much all of them to change. um but but there's definitely ah there's definitely a list of like realistically I might want to do these at some point.
UKRunChat: ah
Jen & Sim: m The trans-Alpine race, which sort of comes across Central Europe, and is high up on ah on the list of of ones to do when the kids are a little bit bigger and we can go off and do do something together because it's like several days. It's like a stage race.
Jen & Sim: um The course changes every every year, but it's it's vaguely sort of similar. and And that looks absolutely brilliant. and And you can do it as ah in teams as well. So see that sounds sounds like quite a good thing to do in a couple of years' time, probably four years' time maybe.
UKRunChat: that you're counting down the days or anything, no.
Jen & Sim: and but
Jen & Sim: yeah and i think for me that the mongolia one i mentioned um mongolia has been someone that's always fascinated me that i have never managed managed to get to and and the aid stations are manned by i nomadic horse people and um and it's also about immersing yourself in the culture so you have a few days before and after the race where you stay in mongolian gurs and and just experience the culture there as well. And it just sounds fantastic. The landscape sounds beautiful and pristine lakes. It just, it sounds, yeah, really beautiful. So I think that would be my top of my bucket list.
UKRunChat: It's almost like, I don't know, in ultra running, it's almost like the running itself is is not the main focus, is it? it's It's kind of an opportunity to explore and kind of find a bit of yourself, really.
UKRunChat: I don't know how you feel about that.
Jen & Sim: Yeah, so much. Like, yeah, opportunity to explore somewhere new, meet new people who are similar in in their love of doing silly things. home And yeah, explore the depths of your own ability to carry on when you really don't want to. and m And yeah, lots of lots of snacks along the way as well.
Jen & Sim: Yeah.
UKRunChat: obviously the Yeah, the snacks are the best, aren't they? Yeah.
Jen & Sim: yeah
UKRunChat: and Yeah, I guess there's there's a lot of people listening to this who may have not done an ultra yet. Have you got any words you'd like to say to them to kind of and encourage them in or allay the fears a little bit?
Jen & Sim: Well, I think the sort of shorter ultras aren't that much different to a marathon really. And the your training would be very similar. um And like you would take longer, but it's because you're moving slower.
Jen & Sim: and So actually think they're maybe not as scary as they could sound. and And especially if you've done a marathon before, you can definitely do an ultra.
Jen & Sim: m And even if you haven't done a marathon before, it's like, it's, it's just about like, I think one of the things I, I find it is I'm not normally competing from a, from like a podium sort of thing.
Jen & Sim: So my mantra tends to be like, what's the best thing I can do right now to make sure I finish. And, and that could be to speed up, but it could be to slow down. it's often to eat, um, like it's normally to eat, um,
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: And it's, but it's like, don't go too fast down the hills because, and and that sort of thing. It's like, you're just, you're just looking after yourself and enjoying it. um And normally there's sort the race cutoff times allow that.
Jen & Sim: And, and it means you can go out and have an amazing adventure. And then particularly if it's trail or it's like off-road or and anything like that, then like no one's running that fast at any point.
Jen & Sim: Almost everyone is walking some of it. And so, it's It's like it's a cool adventure rather than a like a pedal to the metal, will go for it, like sort of thing, which ah like a road 5K or 10K or marathon could be.
Jen & Sim: So in a way, it could be easier.
UKRunChat: Yeah, no, you're right. Yeah, I agree.
Jen & Sim: Yeah.
UKRunChat: I think, if anything, you put a lot of pressure on yourself running kind of a a marathon distance, don't you? Because people can relate to that. And I think with ultras, people necessarily don't understand them. So it takes a bit of pressure off in terms of speed, I think.
UKRunChat: You can enjoy
Jen & Sim: Yeah, I think the fear the fact that it's absolutely acceptable to walk all the hills is quite, I think, is quite a revelation to some people.
UKRunChat: it. Yeah.
Jen & Sim: and And certainly I've walked, I did UTS hundred k this year, which is this super gnarly mountain 100K that it took me three years to finish.
Jen & Sim: excellent and But I actually walked the whole thing this year. I decided I was going to like... prioritize self-preservation, i even had a nap on the way and it took me 28 hours, which was still well within the cutoff.
Jen & Sim: And I loved every minute of it because I didn't have blisters, I didn't have chafing, I didn't have nausea because I was hiking. I wasn't doing all the justling around. And yeah, i loved it. And I think just people understanding that it's possible as long as you hike at a decent pace, with most of these ultras, it's possible to hike it within the cut of time.
Jen & Sim: and And I think when you run, you can end up spending a lot of time stationary because you've ah you've gone out too fast and made yourself feel sick and all those kinds of things. So you end up spending a lot of time in aid stations.
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: Whereas if you just hike, you kind of get rid of a lot of those potential problems and you can you can just if you can keep going it's amazing how how you can get to the finish line within the cutoffs by not even breaking into a run yeah it's funny as well isn't it because if you if you say you've done a marathon people quite often will ask how fast you did and they know a vague time which they they're going to think is impressive or not impressive effectively whereas with an ultra people ask how far it was and then they go wow i couldn't have driven that
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: Or something like that, don't they? And it's like it's really cool. and it's a Because they're so different. that You could have an ultra that's basically flat and fast. And like a 50k ultra would still take like four hours or something. like you like That's fast. but But like you could definitely do something. But you could have 50k ultra that takes 20 hours because it's got 10,000 meters of ascent.
Jen & Sim: and it's So they're so uncomparable. that it's just like, how far is it? Yeah. Like, far is it? That's amazing. How long does it take you? And then almost the longer you can say, the more impressive they are.
Jen & Sim: say and
UKRunChat: but for 28 hours like you just said Jen. Yeah, that's amazing isn't it?
Jen & Sim: Yeah, and yeah. And it's like, wow, did you do that in one go? And it's like, it's sort of fun. and say and And then people who really know what they're talking about, like also know that
UKRunChat: is the looks
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: It's like, wow, so you're out for that long. Like, good effort. that's like That's really cool. So it's just nice. It's fun. it's just nice it's fun
UKRunChat: And you obviously prefer all the mountainous terrain, don't you? What about you, Jen? What's your kind of preferred kind of type of ultra to do?
Jen & Sim: Yeah, well, I think I did my first ultra back in 2008, think. So that was a very long time ago. And I mostly ran flatter ultras, so towpath ultras and and that kind of thing.
Jen & Sim: um And then after the kids were born and I started getting back into it, I decided for some reason that I wanted to do mountain ultras because... I wanted to kind of prove to myself that I could do something I hadn't done before.
UKRunChat: Mm-hmm.
Jen & Sim: and So and went through quite a lengthy process of learning how to run in the mountains and just getting less fearful, getting better at self-management and navigation. him Yeah, just just mountain craft really. It takes quite a long time, even for your knees to work out how just run through the mountains or even hike through the mountains for a long time. sort of that restructuring and rebuilding of and your body as well.
Jen & Sim: and So I entered a couple of races to start with. I tried UTS three years ago, and I think I was the first person to drop out. and So that didn't go so well, but then i went away and learned and got better and trained better.
Jen & Sim: and And then, so yeah, this year, this year I managed to finish it. and I'm hoping to finish 13 values in a couple of weeks time.
UKRunChat: Okay.
Jen & Sim: and
UKRunChat: No.
Jen & Sim: So yeah, and um races in the Brecon Beacons and and that kind of thing. And obviously TDS, which is still on the to-do list. But yeah, so I think the mountains really appeal to me because of the problem solving and because it's not my comfort zone.
Jen & Sim: We don't live somewhere mountainous. So it's kind of, it adds a whole new bunch of things to the puzzle to solve, which I'm really enjoying at the moment. So yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah. How important is kind of knowing navigation and, you know, compass skills?
Jen & Sim: It depends. With racing, it very much depends on whether it's a waymarked route or not. So UTS is waymarked, so there's flags to follow most of the time. and 13 values is all self-navigated.
Jen & Sim: and So we have a map, and i tend to use the OS Maps app. and I struggle to see my watch, you know, when you have to hold it so far away, you can't see it. So, yeah, a lot of people use their watch to navigate, but I can't see it well enough.
UKRunChat: I'm old school.
Jen & Sim: So,
UKRunChat: I don't even have my watch. but The OS map is the app is great.
Jen & Sim: yeah, it's really great.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: Yeah. and And if it's wet, I'll have it in a waterproof case and I just use that to navigate.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: and But obviously it's it's possible to drop your phone or for it to break or that kind of thing. So, yeah, and it is worth getting proficient with the map and compass.
Jen & Sim: Um, and they're on all the kit list. So you have to take them with you.
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: I find that the OS maps app is really good training because you're reading a map all the time and you you're learning how a map works. Um, but there are also lots of good, so girls on Hills, and um, run by Kerry Wallace.
Jen & Sim: Uh, she, she teaches people how to navigate on the run in the Hills all the time.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: So going on a course like that's really good as well. Um, so But yeah, Waymarked Ultras are generally pretty good and you you generally don't have to get your map out unless someone's taken all the flags out, which they do sometimes, but and but not normally.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: But there are yeah there are some um races like might and which are like navigation as part of the but the challenge.
UKRunChat: Yeah. yeah
Jen & Sim: and And that's fun too, but it's just it's just different. and and Yeah. I think
UKRunChat: Yeah, i'm not I'm not sure I'd be fully kind of confident doing a self-nav race like that.
Jen & Sim: i think
UKRunChat: But I guess it's it's just about teaching yourself the skills and, like you say, putting yourself out of your comfort zone, isn't it?
Jen & Sim: yeah And I think in training, just going a short way to start with and and just kind of doing it in manageable chunks.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah.
Jen & Sim: And it's amazing how quickly you get more used to but the feeling of being somewhere unknown or in the mountains or and being you realize you can find your way back and so just doing it a bit at a time so it is daunting like whether it's stepping up a distance or going for a self-nav race it's quite daunting if you just do it in one isn't it whereas see if you do it little bit of at a time then then it gets less daunting it's amazing what you end up doing isn't it when you do it a bit at a time yeah
UKRunChat: Yeah, it is. Yeah. I'll just go a little bit further. Yeah.
Jen & Sim: Yeah, and running navigation is really interesting. I think I'm quite excited about maps and things.
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: And and it's like, because it's you you have to navigate differently than if you're walking because you're moving much faster and you're not you can't you can't look at the map quite as constantly.
Jen & Sim: So it's quite fun learning how to use what they call catch features. It's like if there's a river that goes across in front of you, you know you're going to hit it at some point.
Jen & Sim: and say you can you can basically run until you hit the river. So you don't need to, like, there's things you don't need to worry about on the way and you sort of learn how roughly how long it takes you to travel across this ground at whatever speed.
Jen & Sim: So you know that you can run for about half an hour before you next to to look at the map or whatever. And then, like, when you do it yeah more, it it's sort of fun, but it definitely adds another of thing.
Jen & Sim: So if you're, you've then got to remember to eat and all that sort of thing as well. Yeah. It is much more tiring, actually.
UKRunChat: Yeah, there's a lot to think about somewhere.
Jen & Sim: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think the the eating's key, isn't it, to keep keep your energy level up? I think it's surprising how many calories you burn just even walking for an hour, isn't it
Jen & Sim: Yeah, definitely. And and once the weather's bad and you're doing all the the mental problem solving and and everything as well, yeah, I think the people who do best tend to be the people who eat best.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: yeah
UKRunChat: Yeah. And how do you both prefer them prepare mentally for ultras then is there any if you've got any kind of special tips or things that you do to get the right mindset.
Jen & Sim: When I was first starting to run in the mountains and getting very stressed about it, um I did a mindfulness course. And that really helped because, yeah, just having having techniques to just calm yourself down before races, but also during races when when you kind of start spiraling into those dark places and the negative voices take over, just having...
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: kind of tools to deal with those has been really helpful. And like when when a bad patch hits now, I just treat it like it's a hill or some something else. I just go, oh, this is a bad patch.
Jen & Sim: Just get through it and then and then it'll be gone. So I found that really helpful rather than going, oh, this is a bad patch. This is like the end of the the beginning of the end. It's all going to go downhill from here and I'm going to have to drop out, which is what I used to do.
Jen & Sim: and now just treat you just treat it like any other obstacle. So almost welcome it. Hello, bad patch. Yeah.
UKRunChat: and Actually, I never thought of that.
Jen & Sim: um
UKRunChat: Think of it like a hill.
Jen & Sim: yeah
UKRunChat: That's brilliant. Yeah.
Jen & Sim: Yeah, and that's really helped, actually, because I know it will go. I just tell myself, it's just a bad patch. I'll get through it, whether it's like in 10 minutes or half an hour, and then it goes.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: And it always does go. It's just believing that, I think. Yeah. I found, for me, like... picking the race that i really want to do is really important.
Jen & Sim: And if it's a race that I really want to do the course, and I don't really like I quite like being competitive sometimes for sort normally shorter races, but like with an ultra, I'm probably not aiming to be competitive. I'm aiming to finish.
Jen & Sim: And if it's, if it's a race I've chosen because the course looks amazing, it's somewhere I want to be, it's something I want to do, then like, however I'm feeling, I'm quite enjoying it because it's,
Jen & Sim: It's like I'm doing this thing that I really want to do. Whereas I did ah did that like the race last year, I think, and I'd done it before. like It's not that far away from where we live.
Jen & Sim: It's a nice course, but basically I wanted a faster time. and and for I can't remember exactly why but for whatever reason like the first two thirds went pretty good and I was getting quite quick and then I was and then it fell apart and then it was like instantly as soon as I was missing my timing splits I was like don't really want to be doing this anymore like the only reason I wanted to do it was because I wanted to I can't remember it but I wanted to go under five hours say and it was like this is going to be at least six hours.
Jen & Sim: And so I just, I just dropped it. And it was like, and, and I've, I felt bad about that for quite a long time, but it's, I think it was, it's just basically my my reasoning. Like, and it, and I think that reasoning is relevant. Like it's fine.
Jen & Sim: Like I'm, I'm happy to try and push a time if I want to, but I have to be aware that if it goes wrong, I've suddenly got no reason to be there anymore. and And is that, is that, is that a waste of time seeing as there's like, there's not that you've got like one life, haven't you?
UKRunChat: and Yeah, if if you if you don't want to be there, then there's no harm in stopping, is there?
Jen & Sim: Yeah, exactly.
UKRunChat: Yeah, I think.
Jen & Sim: And if you're in your only reason to be there is, is, is a time goal or a, or something, then... don't know. have to be careful while you sign up, I guess.
UKRunChat: and Yeah, I don't know. you find Do you find you you enter more ultras to to run a time then, or are they more for kind of fun?
Jen & Sim: No, no, I've been, I've been chasing marathon times for a while.
UKRunChat: yeah That's hard work.
Jen & Sim: um And I, I'm, I like that. And I like racing like a 10k or something. And I'll, I'll race that not necessarily for the time, but like to for a position or whatever. And I really enjoy that.
Jen & Sim: But I found that I don't enjoy that with ultras. And like, I like ultras for the adventure. i don't really want to be concentrating on a time for like 20 hours. That sort of, yeah.
UKRunChat: That's hard mentally, isn't it?
Jen & Sim: Yeah. So like an ultra, I guess has become an adventure. Whereas if I want the like competitiveness and stuff, then then like, like I love like pushing really hard for,
Jen & Sim: 10 mile trail race or something like that's brilliant fun and i love that but it's like it's a couple of hours i can work with that um whereas i don't i don't seem to have that motivation to go oaks yes
UKRunChat: I think that's fair enough, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Jen?
Jen & Sim: and Yeah, similarly, I think ultras for me have become about finishing because I did go through a bit of a phase of not finishing. And I think once you drop out once, it's quite hard to carry on the next time. It easily becomes like, oh, you know, you get the same response. So, yeah, I think I used to put myself under quite of pressure t to finish sort of higher up and in the results. And now I've just, I so really like that I've left that pressure behind. I kind of, I can go into a race and go, if I finish last, at least I finished.
Jen & Sim: You it's like, I really don't mind anymore. And it it took me a long time to get rid of that, that fear of failure when failure meant. not finishing in the top third or whatever so um yeah that's been really liberating I think just realizing that finishing nobody cares how long it took you to finish as long as you finish like that's the main thing and and it's very easy to convince yourself that you're lost when you're in an ultra you're normally not yeah
UKRunChat: Yeah, because the field's normally quite spread out as well, isn't it, in the latter stages as well, yeah.
Jen & Sim: yeah Yeah, it's much better just to not think about that at all, I think. and
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: And just, as Sim said, do do the best thing you can at each moment to make sure you get to that finish line, if that's what you want to do. And similarly, I've had races where I've just been, I don't want to be here, I don't want to do this. and and then And I have dropped out and been quite happy with that decision. yeah.
Jen & Sim: yeah
UKRunChat: Yeah. and what's next up for you both then both running and or writing and what have you got coming up in the next few months and anything exciting
Jen & Sim: and i've Yeah, I've got 13 valleys, which is, so that's 114 miles.
UKRunChat: you've got 30 dollars yeah
Jen & Sim: Yeah. So that'll be the furthest I've ever run slash hiked. Yeah. Yeah. and And then books wise, yeah, we're finishing off a ah walking book with the National Trust at the moment, which is always is a nice project to do.
Jen & Sim: So you have to go and visit lots of cafes.
UKRunChat: What
Jen & Sim: So, yeah, so... and yes a think that's, how about you?
UKRunChat: have you got coming on it?
Jen & Sim: a So I haven't actually entered yet, but I'm going to do the Climb South West Jurassic Coast 100 next year, which is, I think it's in June.
UKRunChat: Oh, yeah. OK. Yeah. yeah
Jen & Sim: um and i think that looks really good. And partly that is because I'm, I think we're going to be writing a walking guide for the Jurassic coast. So I thought, what a good idea.
Jen & Sim: I'll go and do the whole thing in one game.
UKRunChat: and said throw yourself right in.
Jen & Sim: Yeah. And then I've run quite a few bits of it before, but it's quite nice to sort of link it all together.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: i And then when we start actually working on that, and we can, I'll know most the coast sections anyway, although some of it will be in the park, so it won't necessarily be hugely helpful.
Jen & Sim: and But I don't have any other, I don't have any races booked at the moment. um We've got a few cool projects, let's see, both the Beacons Way and the um Black Mountains round in the Rackon Beacons.
UKRunChat: Oh, fantastic.
Jen & Sim: I think we'd both like to tick that off at some point. um And there's there's a thing called the Ullswater Skyline which follows the high ground all the way around Ullswater that I've been looking at which I think looks like a very fun project. I think it's about something like 60 miles don't know I don't think it's that far is not that far something that but yeah that looks that looks really good so I think probably the Oldswater one next time we manage to get the Lake District and the be and Black Mountains around maybe this winter be quite quite fun to add some extra manky weather and yeah yeah
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: and
UKRunChat: Well, I've just been out it today.
Jen & Sim: and
UKRunChat: It's already autumn, isn't it?
Jen & Sim: yeah
UKRunChat: It's definitely autumn now.
Jen & Sim: yeah
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: Yeah, the Black Lanterns around looks really good because partly because you can can get a train to Abergavenny and it starts there.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: and So it's really easy and it's a loop. So you you basically hit all the summits in the eastern Brecon Beacons. And and that looks that looks like a good ah good and sort of accessible project to have a go at.
UKRunChat: yeah and
Jen & Sim: Yeah. yeah yeah
UKRunChat: So how do you train for these hilly hilly races? Because you where you live isn't that hilly. What do you do? Do you tend to kind of go out weekends and get hills in? Or how do you manage that between yourselves? That must be quite tough.
Jen & Sim: been a Yeah, a bit of a combination because we live near Bath. So it's quite steep hills, but nothing more than about 200 metres.
UKRunChat: yeah Yeah.
Jen & Sim: So and we can we can sort of get a thousand metres of ascent if we do all the hills on the way. and
UKRunChat: A lot of reps.
Jen & Sim: yeah Yeah. um And then, yeah, Abergavenny, as Sim said, is quite an easy train ride. So, and yeah, if I'm training for a mountain ultra, I'll try and get over there as often as I can, which isn't that often, but maybe once a month or something.
Jen & Sim: and I love running in the Brecon Beacons. It's just, it's like mountains, but runnable mountains, which is really nice. i am And we also write, we've got a weekly walking column in the Times, so we end up having to go all around the country for that.
Jen & Sim: So, and yeah, we end up going to some lots of interesting places and we tend to run the routes because it's just more effective efficient than walking them.
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: So, yeah, and that's quite often we end up going to hilly places for that as well. So, yeah. Yeah, it's not as often as as we might like, um especially if you're training for something like Snowdonia when you really do need that regular kind of quad hammering, it's kind of mountains, but it's it's better than then it could be.
UKRunChat: yeah yeah
Jen & Sim: so We've also got a treadmill and and you've got a pretty savage session that you...
UKRunChat: oh go up please uh yeah
Jen & Sim: Yeah. yeah I worked with Kim Collison for a few months in the lead up to UTS. I just was like, I need someone who knows about mountains and who can help me.
Jen & Sim: um And it really did help. But yeah, so tempo hills. So like three by 10 minutes with with a three minute rest in between or that kind of thing. But with it with a good incline and running as fast as you can on that incline for 10 minutes.
UKRunChat: Yeah, that's a great
Jen & Sim: Yeah. So that's really good. And also just uphill hiking. So it's really good on the treadmill, just putting something good on to watch and then hiking uphill for an hour or so is brilliant because we just haven't got that length of hill here.
Jen & Sim: so you're and So yeah, that's really, especially when the weather's terrible in the in the winter, it's much more appealing to jump on the treadmill and watch something.
UKRunChat: tip.
UKRunChat: yeah there that's that's a great tip Yeah, well, thank you both. and I mean, where do you see the sport of ultra running heading in the next few years? It's so popular, isn't it? Like there's even the like the major UK ones now are balloted entry, aren't they? And it seems like you've got to be there, bang on, entries opening to get places at some of them. So it's definitely a growing sport.
UKRunChat: Are we...
Jen & Sim: Yeah, I think it, yeah, I think it looks great, doesn't it?
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: I think that really helps, like, the book, because but these you're in these grand arenas, you've got all the kit, like, it's a great visual sport, which really helps, i and I think, I think with of increasing and efforts to improve participation, so more women, more people of colour, you know, that, like,
UKRunChat: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah. yeah
Jen & Sim: having better marketing so that people can see people who they perceive as being like themselves doing these races is increasing participation. And yeah, so I think more people feel they can do it and more generous cutoffs and people like us going, it's just walking.
UKRunChat: I love that you've walked one, that's fab.
Jen & Sim: yes
UKRunChat: It's like, yeah, why not?
Jen & Sim: yeah Yeah.
UKRunChat: Great.
Jen & Sim: yeah And then yeah, so I, I can't see how it won't continue to expand. It's, you know, it's got, it's got all the right ingredients, hasn't it? Yeah. um yeah And I do hope that so there are people like Damien Holding and initiatives like InterUltra because it is expensive to get established when you need to buy the kit and that's even before the race entry fees and things like that. So,
Jen & Sim: and So certainly, like, we couldn't afford to do lots and lots of races. We have to really be careful about which races we choose as riders. and so I mean, there are lots of barriers still.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: And I guess it's it dealing with those as well. But with things like FKTs, so fastest known times on all the national trails and your local trails, that's kind of a a much more affordable way to get into ultra running. And it's still ultra running and it's still celebrated. and you can still share the adventure with other people and and things. So there are ways of doing it more cheaply. But and yeah, I think, I hope it continues to grow because it's a great community and and a lot of fun. so
Jen & Sim: And like a lot of the of really well-known races are becoming ballot entry and
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: um harder to get into or you have to have qualifying races or or whatever but but as we found writing writing this like there are so many um even more local races or sort of races in the slightly less well-known regions of the amazing places um like in in the alps like everyone's heard of utmb everyone wants to do utmb but mate there are shed loads of brilliant races, some of them on the same trails even, um in the Alps that are easy to enter and
Jen & Sim: and quite often cheaper and quite often, like sometimes more fun in a way, because, because they're much smaller, they can be much more local. And you say, I did a ah race um in the Beldon region, which is sort of bit south of Chamonix effectively.
Jen & Sim: um And, and it's like, it's like a family thing almost. And it's like, you get to try all the local cheeses on the aid stations and things like that. And it's like, in it it was brilliant.
Jen & Sim: And, um, And there's there's there's later races, like in the UK, there's later races ah abroad that aren't necessarily the headline races, but they ain't like the running's just as good.
Jen & Sim: and um And it might not be quite as... don't know, maybe you still want to do UTMB at some point, but by doing a few of these races, it means when you get to do UTMB, you're more likely to finish because you've got more experience.
Jen & Sim: that You've got the points or the UTMB points or the the qualifying times for whichever other races. So i think I think it's almost a good thing that some of the so the sort of the biggest are becoming harder to get into because it means people look at other ones.
UKRunChat: yeah
Jen & Sim: and And I think that's that's a good thing because there are lots of really cool race organisers who are so just happily setting up their little race in their awesome bit of hill that's near them and um like go and find those.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Look locally and see what you can find out there. Yeah, there there is. There's plenty going on, isn't there? Yeah. Oh, well, thank you very much, both of you. So your your new book, Ultra, is out now.
UKRunChat: and Yeah, and you've you've got you've just published one on you've published your one on women's running as well recently, haven't you, Jen? That's not been too long.
Jen & Sim: Yeah, the path she runs is out in so in in paperback now.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah. but yeah
Jen & Sim: So, yeah, and audiobook as well. So it's great to listen to you while you're running. Yeah.
UKRunChat: Oh, there you go, yeah. A long training run.
Jen & Sim: Yeah.
UKRunChat: Yeah, ah thank you. Where can people find you on social media and online if they want to?
Jen & Sim: We're at Jen and Sim on Instagram.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Jen & Sim: It's probably the best place. Yeah.
UKRunChat: Fab. Well, yeah, thank you both for your time. And hopefully you've inspired people to maybe buy a gift for that ultra runner in the life or ah find some find some new new races that they want to enter.
Jen & Sim: Thank you.
UKRunChat: and We hope that you've all enjoyed this episode for the UK Run Chat podcast. ah Feel free to share with a friend, subscribe and join in on our socials. And thanks again for listening. Until next time, keep running.
