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Catherine & Pippa of Trail and Bloom: Reclaiming Running and Strength in Midlife
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In this episode of the UKRunChat Podcast, Michelle is joined by Catherine and Pippa, co-founders of Trail & Bloom, a trail running retreat designed to support women navigating midlife.
Both share deeply personal journeys of how their relationships with movement evolved. From early experiences of feeling “not good enough” in sport, to running as punishment for eating, to rediscovering joy and confidence on the trails, this is an honest conversation about identity, body image, performance and self-worth.
Catherine talks about how perimenopause, injury and life pressures left her questioning her place in running, and how trail running helped her reconnect with movement in a way that felt freeing rather than pressured.
Pippa shares her path from disordered eating and overwhelm to becoming a GB age-group triathlete, and explains why midlife women need to understand their physiology — particularly the importance of maintaining muscle mass for long-term health, strength and confidence.
Together, they discuss:
- Why so many women carry “baggage” into midlife running
- How trails can remove pressure and reintroduce joy
- The myths around weight loss, BMI and body composition
- Why strength training is essential (and how to approach it safely)
- How to rebuild confidence when performance plateaus
- What women really need in midlife: community, compassion and evidence-based guidance
This episode is a powerful reminder that midlife can be a breakthrough, not a breaking point, and that running can still be joyful, empowering and deeply restorative at any age.
You can find more about Trail & Bloom and their upcoming retreats at https://trailandbloom.co.uk/
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Podcast and Focus
00:00:41
UKRunChat
Welcome to the UK Run Chat Podcast.
Trail and Bloom Retreat Introduction
00:00:44
UKRunChat
I'm Michelle and today I'm chatting with two guests about how to navigate running, identity and wellbeing as a woman in midlife.
00:00:44
Pippa
Thank
00:00:52
UKRunChat
I'm joined by Catherine and Pippa, who are the team behind Trail and Bloom, which is a new trail running retreat designed specifically to support women through this chapter of life.
Midlife as a Turning Point
00:01:02
UKRunChat
Both have very powerful personal stories, which we'll hear about. So today we'll talk about why midlife can feel both like a breaking point and a breakthrough and how trail running can help rebuild our confidence. Hi Katherine and Pippa, thank you so much for joining us today. Now before we get into individual stories, can you tell us how how did your paths cross and when did you realise that you had a shared vision for supporting women in this period of their lives?
00:01:31
Catherine
So our paths crossed. Our eldest children, or Pippa's middle child and my eldest child, are in the same class at school. So and we knew each other originally from the school gates. And and I had always known that Pippa was a very strong runner, a prolific athlete, et cetera. And then i restarted a running journey and in my forty s early 40s. And then decided to take on London Marathon.
Personal Journeys in Running
00:02:04
Catherine
And so I approached Pippa at that point and to work with her um as a running coach. And so we had a personal relationship and then a professional relationship that's just continued to grow since then, really.
00:02:18
UKRunChat
Oh, that's lovely. Pippa, you want to just give us a little bit of your background then and before we we kind of dive into the into the rest of it?
00:02:26
Pippa
Yeah, so i I am not a lifetime athlete at all by any means. i um i was a horse rider when I was younger, but i kind of didn't really do a lot of school sports. um At school, sports was a bit elitist. If you weren't at the top of your game, you were excluded. You didn't get to do match days and stuff. And that was me, really. And then through my teenage years, I guess because I didn't really have an outlet,
00:02:56
Pippa
Physically, I had um struggles with eating disorders and like a terrible relationship with food until my mid 20s, really. um And I only really discovered running after my daughter was born. So in 2016, so I'll have been running 10 years next year. um And I started running, ah think a lot like ah like a lot of people do to to lose weight and feel better. And I didn't really know what that meant. um And i was i I was ashamed, I guess. I was 16 stone when I started running um and had a poor relationship with food, alcohol. and What I now know were undiagnosed ADHD symptoms. So I've since received an ADHD diagnosis. um
00:03:48
Pippa
sub-optimal relationship with my children's father um and just run ended up running to cope and improve my life and it it really it genuinely did that in buckets and and more um and has completely changed me as a person really um And so I went from I started training with some people locally um who were running a half marathon at the weekend for fun. And I was just kind of having a glass of wine and feeding my child. And that was a win for me at the time. And I gradually kind of fell in with that that crowd, I guess. um started running 10 K's and half marathons and you know, and it's like you kind of just carry on. And so then next thing I was doing Edinburgh marathon and Chester and
00:04:37
Pippa
Then i got in the pool and started swimming and realized I'd actually swam quite well. Um, despite popular opinion, when I was younger, I wasn't the best, but I'd been taught to swim really well. And the next thing I knew i was doing an Ironman and where I'd, I'd ridden horses, i had really good quads. And so I was my, the bike is my strongest discipline. um did an Ironman and then thought well I could I could be competitive with this and so I just kind of set about it um and then locked down and divorce and homeschooling and all of that stuff and I gradually kind of half my distance and kept halving it until I got to standard distance triathlon um found a bit of speed again um qualified for the GB team um and ended up
00:05:27
Pippa
at the Europeans in Poland in 2022, where I came sixth, pre-qualified for um the next the next year. And then along came a baby and i had to withdraw from everything, um ran through my pregnancy um and stayed quite fit. um And then British triathlon, and very kindly introduced the pregnancy deferral scheme um of which I believe I'm probably one of the first to uptake on that so I now have a place at the world's um next year in Ponte Vedra which I'm training for quite seriously now um and yeah I guess that's me that's um trail running i i started trail running
00:06:17
Pippa
Oh gosh, when I was marathon training, um really to to take the pressure off the pace um in the middle of long runs. And so I could run with my dogs um because i was when I was just road running, I was finding I was going out on a run and then I'd have to come back and walk the dog and it just didn't sit well. um And so I started trail running with my Labrador at the time. He's no longer with us. But then in 2021, I bought myself a Cocker Spaniel um as a running buddy. um And then we had a litter off her. um
00:06:51
Pippa
Was it last year? Yeah, last year. Catherine had one of the litter.
00:06:54
Catherine
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:55
UKRunChat
la
00:06:56
Pippa
So we have we have puppies who are sisters. um
00:06:59
UKRunChat
that's cute.
00:07:00
Pippa
and And they are equally crazy, but we do a lot of trail running with them, and letting off some steam.
00:07:08
Catherine
Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:10
Pippa
And yeah, so it's sort of grown into a lot of a lot of trail running and a lot of a lot of having fun really.
00:07:19
UKRunChat
Yeah. Wow. it's It's amazing that you managed to fit all that in. But as you say, I guess running with the dog does help, doesn't it? And But training for kind of the world must be, must take up a lot of your time.
00:07:31
Pippa
It's... Do you know, I'm quite strong on the bike. It's the bike, something that I've, i've my my coach um is a lady called Angela Joyner-Handy. And she's actually one of, she's um one of the facilitators on our retreats as well. um She has some, um some championships under her belt for multi-sport and also powerlifting. And she's not really taking, she's agreed to let me park the bike. um
00:08:02
Pippa
apart from one session a week until January, because the run is actually my weakest. Um, and if I don't train the run, I i struggle. Um, the swim, I can get in the pool and swim and I haven't lost a lot and the same on the bike. So actually strategically, I'm, I'm mainly running and doing strength at the moment. Um, and that saves me a lot of time because runs a lot tougher than, than the others. And you get a lot more bang for your buck really.
00:08:31
Pippa
um
00:08:31
UKRunChat
again
00:08:32
Pippa
So yeah, that's how I'm managing it at the moment. But I'm under no illusions that in the the new year, I'm going to be having to find somewhere to swim, which where we live, is it's not particularly accessible. um And that adds a lot of travel time. And then the bike obviously takes a bit longer to get the same um training effect. So I'm going to be having to step up in the new year. Yeah.
00:09:01
UKRunChat
Yeah, we've a lot to think about. i'll like Well, thank you for that wonderful kind of introduction to yourself, Pippa.
00:09:03
Pippa
Yeah.
00:09:07
UKRunChat
Katherine, do you want to kind of give us your background now and tell us how you got into finding a love for the trails?
00:09:10
Catherine
Yeah, of course. Yeah, no, thank you. and there's actually similarities between our stories, I think, and obviously at different levels.
00:09:23
Catherine
But and I had a very, very similar disconnection as a child. and I was a club swimmer, um so spent... the best part of 10 years really in the pool most days. And and that was very much my social circle um and all I knew growing up really. um But it was a different time. and You know, this is kind of mid to late eighties and early nineties. And I was always made to feel that I wasn't good enough really to be part of that club. and I certainly was never picked for any competitions and and um certainly made to feel inferior at times. And and a lot of that was associated to kind of how I looked. You know, I was an overweight child and and it created quite a lot of negative talk and around, know,
00:10:24
Catherine
your body, how it looked and how it performed and therefore that I wasn't
Benefits of Trail Running
00:10:28
Catherine
good enough because of how it looked and how I performed. So the emphasis really wasn't on the enjoyment of sports and the fact that anyone can enjoy moving their body and derive pleasure and enjoyment from it.
00:10:42
Catherine
It always felt like punishment because I just wasn't good enough and it didn't matter how hard I worked, I still wasn't good enough to make you know makete the grade. So for me, that led to a really negative association with exercise, but also a deep rooted disconnection between myself and exercise as well. And and that carried ah on into adulthood and and yeah, similar.
00:11:09
Catherine
and challenges around food, which I, you know, quite honestly, we we'll talk about my struggles still today, really, but and a real negative connection with food as well. And my recourse for exercise was always as a punishment for overeating and and not feeling good enough again, and all that negative so self-talk.
00:11:31
Catherine
And I first kind of migrated into running, I suppose, it's in my twenty s and because there were a lot of people doing it then. It was beginning, it was sort of the start of like running events being really popular.
00:11:43
Catherine
and So i thought, oh yeah, I'll have a go. um And I actually got okay, you know, an average middle of the pack runner. and You know, quite happy I got two hour a half during that time. But showing up on that start line, I had all of those feelings around...
00:12:00
Catherine
Am I thin enough? And do I look the right way to be partaking in this event? um And I wouldn't enter competitions if I didn't feel that, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't fit into my race gear, you know, so
00:12:17
Catherine
I show up on those start lines, having that real deep disconnect around really the wrong mentality, sort starting that line, thing thinking that if I wasn't going to finish quick enough, it was because I wasn't good enough. Instead of starting on that start line, thinking this is amazing. This training block has got me to where I need to be. And this should be a celebration of what I can achieve.
00:12:38
Catherine
and So, of course, it failed. You know, that negative talk, it just failed. So again, I fell out of love with running, also life intervened, kids came along, the whole shebang. And then I noticed just as my children were getting older, and particularly my eldest, Chiara, who takes after me genetically. And and I was very mindful of her, I wanted her to have a different association. with exercise as she grew older um and a different association with her body image as well as she grew older so that kind of caused me to sort of up my game a little bit and i hit 40 and i said no you know now's the time to do it properly so i started running again and and really enjoyed it um and actually then everything became uh
00:13:31
Catherine
an enjoyment of what I could do, you know, i was like, Oh, okay, now I'm 42 and I'm just running my first marathon. This is pretty cool. Um, and that's sort of what led me to running this time. And then when I, I did a couple of marathons, did London marathon and Brighton marathon.
00:13:48
Catherine
um And then I hit probably 43 and I noticed everything started to feel different. Everything started to feel harder. and I was trying to push faster goals and and improve on times, but everything felt so much more difficult. and Life just felt more difficult as well.
00:14:09
Catherine
You know, the kids need you in a slightly different way as they get older. And that mental challenge I find quite heavy. and As you notice the kids getting older, the the needs change from physical to mental.
00:14:20
Catherine
And and that obviously impacts onto your you as as a parent mentally too.
00:14:25
Pippa
Thank you.
00:14:26
Catherine
And then obviously your parents are getting older as well. And um that that brings worry and stress and concern. And um and it feels like you're just um you know you're you're just in a pressure cooker from every angle.
00:14:38
Catherine
And... and my kind of coping mechanism of running wasn't working either because I'd find that I'd go for a run and I'd get frustrated and angry that I wasn't getting better. And then a whole heap of injuries ensued through lack of consistency as well. And I've really been battling now and minor niggles for probably the best part of 18 months. And and actually,
00:15:05
Catherine
that's when I had a chat with Pippa and went, you know what, something's got to change. Otherwise I'm just going to stop completely and I'm going to go back to how I was before and I don't want that to happen. and So I think two years ago, pretty much to the day, Pippa took me out on my first trial one.
00:15:21
Catherine
and
00:15:21
UKRunChat
Oh, so you introduced Catherine to the trails, did you?
00:15:22
Pippa
Yes. yeah Yeah, yeah, I did.
00:15:24
UKRunChat
Oh, that's wonderful.
00:15:24
Catherine
Yeah.
00:15:25
Pippa
I've still got, I think it was, was it the 20, I was pregnant with Francis. So 29, September 23.
00:15:30
Catherine
November, yeah.
00:15:31
Pippa
Yeah.
00:15:34
Catherine
Oh, okay.
00:15:34
Pippa
yeah
00:15:35
Catherine
and And um even on that first run, we were talking about it this morning at something else, but even on that first run, I remember kind of getting stressed out at one point going, oh my gosh, it just took, you you know, 13 minutes to run that last mile. And Pippa just literally turning around going, it doesn't matter. Like you're on the trails. It doesn't matter. Just slow down. Enjoy the view.
00:15:56
Catherine
Take your time. There was no such thing as too slow on the trails. And to have someone sort of challenge me in that moment was quite an epiphany, really. And I was like, oh, OK, I hadn't really thought about it like that. um And then and I've just kind of done more and more over the past two years, really. so and again, as Pippa mentioned before, um her eldest spaniel had a litter at the beginning of last year, and March last year.
00:16:26
Catherine
and which coincided with me doing Brighton Marathon as well. um And I remember sitting on the beach in Brighton the day after the marathon, just watching the sea and having a coffee before I had to drive home. And a springer brand spaniel bounded along the beach and and came running up the beach to me and bounced on you as only a spaniel can and and started covering me with kisses and licks and everything else.
00:16:54
Catherine
And then as I got back into the car um on the way back Brighton, I said to Pippa, right, I think that's a sign. i think I think we're going to get one of your spaniels.
00:17:00
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:17:02
Catherine
and And then that was it. I was then committed to, obviously, as Pippa said.
00:17:06
Pippa
They must have been four weeks old then. Like something, yeah.
00:17:09
Catherine
Yeah.
00:17:12
Catherine
Yeah.
00:17:12
Pippa
Didn't have to work too hard for that.
00:17:12
Catherine
um No. think it was just, you know, as Pippa said then, it's the efficiency of fitting everything in The dog needs a walk. And if I'm going to go for a run, while the dog comes on a run with me and it's two birds, one stone. And then that naturally forces you out onto the trails. So we've had, yeah, best part two years now of and exploring all the trails around us with with our spaniels.
00:17:37
UKRunChat
so what's So what's different about trail running that you love so much then? That's a question for both of you really.
00:17:43
Catherine
For me, it is the... but the pressure that's taken off from from the road. So me, it's the pressure that's taken off, the ability for you to go slow, the freedom that comes with it, of like that release from you, you know, just like, oh, okay, well, I'm out for to enjoy the ride here. And that's absolutely and fine. You know, there's no pressure there. It's the flexibility that each run gives you in the sense that and You know, if you're just running around your village or your town or your local routes, you end up getting tired of those routes very quickly. and Even if you do the same route out on the trails, you do it one day. It's completely different to it you doing it another day. So it's the sort of sense of adventure as well that comes from each run being ever so slightly different. and And you're never really entirely sure what's going to happen. and So, you know, who's going fall over? Normally it's me. and Who's going to fall over? Which field are we going to meet cows in? and Whose dog are we going to lose? Again, that's probably going to be mine.
00:18:49
Catherine
and And, you know, that you each each story is slightly different. and And it gives you that sense when you finish of almost that sense of you can pretty much do anything because you've done something that's a lot more challenging than perhaps, you know, going on the road. It challenges you both physically.
00:19:09
Catherine
and mentally and helps build your resilience as a result. For me personally, and that's that's what I take from it.
00:19:16
UKRunChat
Yeah, what about you Pippa?
00:19:18
Pippa
um Well, I started trail running for the dog, um firstly, but also i think because i I was training as a running coach and I was also pushing myself into two marathons back to back, sort of sixty a 16-week training block apart within two years of starting running, which I was just very aware with a science background was a bit stupid.
00:19:46
Pippa
um And so it was one of these things I did to take the pressure off the pace because I was going to, I could feel myself getting a bit obsessive about the pace.
00:19:57
Pippa
um And I, you know, the telltale signs, you sort of going out for an easy run and you want your easy run to be a nine minute mile.
00:19:58
Catherine
Mm-hmm.
00:20:07
Pippa
You want it to be a nine minute mile, but your heart rate is saying otherwise, and you're ignoring your actual heart rate because you want your pace to be, and it's, It's that kind of, I couldn't stop that internal or dialogue.
00:20:18
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:20:19
Pippa
um And in line with what Catherine was saying, you know it's one way to switch it off. You can't guess on the trails. um it was It was the adventure as well. At the time when I was um running marathons, I was a relative newbie and there was some there was a great bunch of girls at the time all going out and training for ultras. um So i had...
00:20:44
Pippa
lots of people around me who could show me local routes that I could sort of tag together and I learned i learned that way. um Also, i think just from coaching knowledge and scientific knowledge is if you've got any nuances in your stride you're constantly varying where you put your feet and you have to your your stride is longer and shorter and wider and narrower um and it kind of to a certain extent mitigates against the risk of injury um and builds up all of those stabilizing muscles at the same time So I probably falsely told myself that I could I could do less strength work um if I went out on the trails because I was doing i was doing an all round workout with with on the trails. um I know that's not true, but um it was it was one way I kind of trained at the time. um
00:21:46
Pippa
But it's just become. I think it it adds another sense of novelty as well for me. Like if I really, you know, we all have days where you're kind of, drag you feel like you're dragging your bus out of the door and I will always go through a mental process if I feel that way of, well, what can I do to add, you know, an ADHD brain thrives on novelty.
00:22:10
Pippa
Can I wear a different pair of shoes? Can I do that route backwards? Can I, you know how can you change this to make it interesting in some way just to keep that habit going um and i've switched so many road runs for trails because it's just got me out doing something um so yeah i think the sense of novelty as well for me is what keeps it going
00:22:28
Catherine
Mm-hmm.
00:22:33
UKRunChat
Yeah, they definitely bring a sense of kind of adventure and fun as well, the trails, don't they? and ah Like what you were saying, Catherine, about everyone being kind of different, even throughout the seasons and from week to week.
00:22:44
UKRunChat
Pippa, will you do a lot of your kind of marathon training on the trails then? Will that help will that hinder, do you think?
00:22:49
Pippa
Yes. i did every single, for my second back-to-back block of marathon training, I did every single long run on trails with dogs. um i When I want speed work, I'll keep the surface solid.
00:23:06
Pippa
um i I take hill reps off-road a lot. um I find it's really...
00:23:11
UKRunChat
Yes.
00:23:14
Pippa
Um, to a certain extent, you know, you can measure your progress by doing the same thing on the same surface each time, but sometimes like just to get away from that pressure, you know, if you put too much pressure on yourself for, for speed sessions.
00:23:22
Catherine
Thank you.
00:23:30
Pippa
it's it's counterproductive. And so if I need to do a hill rep session, I'll often go on trail because it gives the dogs a good workout. um Then hill reps on trail are yeah so much steeper.
00:23:44
Pippa
um And with the surface being what it is at the moment, especially, you know it's really hard to to even grit.
00:23:50
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:23:51
Pippa
um So it's a completely different workout. And um But, you know, you can easily max out your heart rate on on a hill rep, like in this part of the world, um much easier than on road.
00:23:59
UKRunChat
Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:05
Pippa
So, um yeah, i I like to keep it interesting. I think it really helps to keep it interesting.
00:24:11
UKRunChat
yeah yeah so So I just want to go back to what I think both of you alluded to it when you were chatting about your own kind of backstories. And, you know, where does all that baggage...
00:24:24
UKRunChat
we We come with a lot of baggage about running, don't we, and an identity by the time we hit our 40s.
00:24:31
Pippa
yeah
00:24:32
UKRunChat
I think it's it's really sad. I'm sure there'll be a lot of women out there nodding along. and I know I am. I had a similar experience to you both with kind of starting running to lose weight and then finding that it can actually be fun, you know,
00:24:43
UKRunChat
and And for me, again, it was once I got a dog, I was like, oh yeah, this is brilliant. um But, you know there's there's a lot coming at us in this period of our lives.
00:24:53
UKRunChat
So how can we kind of find that confidence in ourselves? like I guess I'm kind of leading into what your' you're kind of planning with Trail and Bloom, aren't I? Because you haven't quite launched yet. You are about to launch any day now. So just tell us a little bit about where that idea came from and how you're hoping to help women Just find some confidence and find a joyful running again.
Trail and Bloom Retreat Details
00:25:17
Catherine
For me, um so the idea for Trial and Bloom probably started about a year ago and and um you know, for that, the the transformational effects that running in nature had on me and through Pippa's guidance, and I just couldn't help but feeling that there must be other people that would benefit from that in some way. And and again, you know, in terms of that and sort of coping mechanism of dealing with life's stresses and challenges,
00:25:51
Catherine
everything feels so much better like you know you talk about entering flow don't you once you kind of in the zone on a run um and it just it just gives me great moments of clarity um when i when i'm in that period and so if i'm grappling with a problem at work or at home then going for a run out on the trails really helped me just find a solution where I could just be sitting here putting my hair out otherwise.
00:26:17
Catherine
and So ah just felt like there had to be more people that would benefit from from that. um I recognised I was exceptionally lucky, you know, Pippa's a good friend, we've worked together, et cetera. um to be able to kind of tap onto that resource into that resource um and i know from speaking to friends who are runners they never go on the trails because they wouldn't even know where to start so not only that they don't necessarily know the benefits because they've not done it but they just wouldn't know where to start like if you'd asked me two years ago well
00:26:51
Catherine
how do i how do i How do I run off road? like Physically, how do you plan it? How do you know where to go? and you know what what What tech do you use or otherwise to to plan? and if you're not If you don't have a dog and you don't walk a dog, then you wouldn't necessarily know all the routes through the field. so where do you start? And and like I said, i was very lucky that Pippa was able to kind of guide me. She'd had ah influence from other people before who helped her with some of the routes locally. And that knowledge just got passed down and passed on. And we see that a lot. You know, we've got friends in our community now that have started running and then trail running because of that. And that knowledge just gets passed on. So it was really kind of bringing together a group of women that perhaps never have,
00:27:37
Catherine
tried trail running before um or maybe have tried it but aren't optimizing what they're doing on the trails or they've hit that part of their life similar to to me where things start to feel different so how to again adapt their training sustainably um so yeah it's bringing together a community of experts to help women carve that time out for midlife and develop them through midlife and develop those sustainable training habits and and actually you know get over the hurdle of being out on the trails and off road because
00:28:11
Catherine
for me particularly you know it's a deeply personal story but for me particularly being out on the trails when you come back having done a trail run you feel so resourced and resilient to be able to deal with stuff that some of those problems that you were facing before you went not only do you time kind of have sort of those moments where you get clarity on the run but actually those problems seem so small and insignificant when you realize out in the big open world and across those open natural landscapes, how small you are in the grand scheme of things. So it gives you a sense of grounding perspective. and So yeah, really we're working with PIPA obviously with all of her expertise, but bringing other experts in together on those retreats to help and people face those challenges in midlife.
Fitness and Nutrition Misconceptions in Midlife
00:28:57
UKRunChat
Yeah, and anything to add to that Pippa from your perspective?
00:29:01
Pippa
I think from my point of view, um what we are trying to offer is really unique in the environment that we're hoping to bring people into. um the The acceptance and self-acceptance, um the the positivity, but also the feeling that they are supported by people who really know what they're doing.
00:29:30
Pippa
um So, um me personally, um I'm a women's um health and performance coach.
00:29:32
Catherine
Mm-hmm.
00:29:39
Pippa
I have postgraduate qualifications in clinical research and nutrition um and then sports coaching qualifications. um And I've sort of more recently been working towards um launching online courses.
00:29:55
Pippa
And one of those is Data Driven Wellness. And then the other one is a course that takes people on a journey so that at the end of it they can end up with a training plan that they've designed themselves it's personalized and it's based on their own personal data um and for these retreats I'm hoping to deliver um versions of those courses live so that um not only does it give women who are on our retreats the confidence to get out on the trails and find a new kind of way of exercising.
00:30:34
Pippa
But it also breaks down those barriers in terms of training in itself um and training. gives them the confidence they need to know that the training they're doing is the right thing for their body it's I think we have a lot of fear around training and misconceptions around training that it's it has to be go hard or go home it has to it has to be painful it has to um it has to be almost something intimidating um but actually i'm working really hard um with others from the industry to kind of reframe that um and so that we can start to see training as something that is conducive to our longevity and our health span it's not something we do in spite of ourselves, um but it's something that actually we really need to be doing um to ensure that we um maintain muscle mass into our later years, our in um our independence, our, you know, and and I think
00:31:07
Catherine
Thank you.
00:31:38
Catherine
Thank you.
00:31:42
Pippa
there's a lack of understanding around um maintaining muscle mass and the huge array of benefits that can bring, um especially in midlife, um in terms of hormone regulation, energy balance. And metabolism and sleep and stress and all of these things. And, you know, if from my point of view, if there was one sort of there isn't a golden ticket, but if there was a golden ticket, if you could if you could find the most important thing you could do for yourself in midlife. it would be to maintain that muscle mass that you're inevitably going, that's inevitably going to decline um from about the age of 35 to 40.
00:32:28
Pippa
And helping people do that, I think is really important and helping them to understand what that means. So underpinning, um, trail survival and being able to enjoy getting out on the trails and being supported by a community of like-minded women we really want the the evidence base and the science behind it um to help people i hate the word educate because it and it it can be patronizing um but to help people to understand their bodies better and understand what's actually going on at that phase of life scientifically as well as emotionally and socially.
00:32:52
Catherine
Thank you.
00:33:11
UKRunChat
Yeah, no, that's great because there's a lot of nonsense out there, isn't there, on social media and it's always telling us we need to be smaller, we need to be lighter, we need to weigh less and
00:33:22
Pippa
ah Yeah, and it's it really is that age-old... You know, i'm from my point of view, I'm i'm looking at my mum's generation now.
00:33:33
Pippa
um and they were the generation of the calorie deficit diet and the Rosemary Connolly and just just eat less and move more and but what we don't understand is that when we eat less we have less opportunities to nourish our body and to get the right nutrition and when you non-specifically cut out calories. You know, if you're cutting out calories, they can be made of anything. um And when you're doing that, you're, yes, you're losing weight, but weight is made up of muscle and fat. And so you might be losing fat, but you're also losing muscle. And the less muscle you have, the lower your metabolic rate and therefore the less you can eat. And so you're sort of pigeonholing yourself into this giant trap that's very, very difficult to get out of this non-specific weight loss. um
00:34:27
Pippa
And it's not until relatively fairly recently that we've understood the value of body composition. um Probably, you know, the exception to that is this the sports world and where that's always, you know, it's always been something that is important.
00:34:39
Catherine
Thank you.
00:34:43
Pippa
but for non athletes, the importance of body composition is not something that's talked about an awful lot. Um, and it's, it's steadily on the rise now, but that sort of, it's one of my missions is to get people to understand that non-specific weight loss is, is a detrimental thing to do.
00:35:04
Pippa
um and as much as I think we've moved forward and we're getting the mass, the message out there about maintaining muscle, um it it doesn't seem to be budging largely because now we have the GLP one fashion.
00:35:16
UKRunChat
My weight is a new.
00:35:19
Pippa
um And, um you know, that's again, another non-specific weight loss mechanism, albeit very effective, but it's the short term wins that we're still going for.
00:35:32
Pippa
And that it really, um it saddens me actually to see that there's another global round of this and that it's the message clearly isn't catching on.
00:35:44
Pippa
yeah. say yeah
00:35:46
UKRunChat
yeah you're Yeah, you're nodding along there, Catherine, if you anything to to kind of add to that conversation.
00:35:51
Catherine
um is just Yeah, just, you know, and I know Pippa referred to her mum's generation, god you know, it's it's like she could be rewriting my whole teenage and adult, early adult life and, you know, through my 30s as well, that that cycle of restriction and to, you know, to to lose weight, to hit a number on a scale.
00:36:12
Pippa
And this was mine as well.
00:36:12
Catherine
Yeah.
00:36:13
Pippa
you know ah this was i i was um Through my teens, I was i was an anorexic um and i that was driven, I believe, through misinformation.
00:36:20
UKRunChat
Mm-hmm.
00:36:27
Pippa
All I wanted to know was what to to eat to be healthy and how to how to control my... I wanted to control something. It was definitely not based on nothing. um But a huge part of that was not knowing what to eat for the best um and being influenced by all of this calorie deficit stuff, not understanding the importance of muscle mass.
00:36:46
Catherine
Yeah.
00:36:48
Pippa
um And I, to this day, feel that if I had had the right information, the information that I have now that I've spent quite a long time researching to find, um I probably wouldn't have been quite so ill.
00:37:03
Pippa
um And I think the same still applies to an awful lot of women. Thank
00:37:10
UKRunChat
Yeah, it' it's still it's still ongoing now. i have a 12-year-old daughter and it's it's, I mean, I don't like her on social media, but it's it's awful what's on there targeted at young people nowadays telling them that they still need to take up less space.
00:37:26
UKRunChat
And it is it's a worry, isn't it, where we want them to be active and and yet they're encouraged to eat less and not have that energy to fuel them.
00:37:33
Pippa
Okay.
00:37:35
Catherine
Yeah. And skinny talk is now a thing as well. And, you know, it's it it does sadden me. But I also, you know, I do try to be a positive person in terms of what we can do to actually affect the change around us.
00:37:48
Catherine
And again, it's one of our sort of missions and purposes, purpose for what what it is in terms of improving the education around women's health and women's nutrition. and But yeah, there it does still sadden me because you still hear, you know I've got a 10 year old daughter, we both have 10 year old daughters and they come home from school and they still do sort of the annual weigh in at school for the health checks.
00:38:11
Catherine
And that fixation with numbers from a very young age over what healthy age is. Well, I don't want my daughter being weighed at school. I'm sorry. and i don't.
00:38:22
Catherine
and Because her value and her size and place in this world is not determined by that number on the scale.
00:38:28
Pippa
And what does that even mean?
00:38:29
Catherine
It doesn't mean anything.
00:38:30
Pippa
You know, what does BMI mean anymore?
00:38:31
Catherine
is
00:38:32
Pippa
It doesn't have its
00:38:33
Catherine
Yeah.
00:38:34
Pippa
you know, it's it's pretty arbitrary in terms of what it means as an indicator for health. um And I don't really understand why we still use it. And there are articles out there um that evidence the the lack of integrity of BMI as a health indicator.
00:38:46
UKRunChat
Mm-hmm.
00:38:51
Pippa
um And so why are we still weighing our children? And yeah I don't really understand that. It
Overcoming Fitness Barriers
00:38:57
Pippa
it doesn't indicate anything really.
00:38:58
Catherine
Yeah, it's yeah, it does. It does sadden me. And, you know, again, as someone who's always had a BMI, that's never been in a healthy range, even, you know, when when I've lost weight, and I've been the skinniest ofve been and, you know, a size 10, I think was the sort skinniest I've been at one point in my life. um but still my the scales would still put me on on an overweight perspective and it's just so unhealthy and a lot of that is down to you know those formative years as well all that time spent in the pool the broad shoulders all of these things that have you know defined ge genetics plus then the nurturing element of how i grew up you know it just it doesn't mean anything and so yeah we're very mindful from a parenting perspective that we are
00:39:43
Catherine
and controlling those positive messages that go down to our children as much as we can.
00:39:47
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:39:48
Catherine
And again, it's.
00:39:48
UKRunChat
So how do we how do we control those messages that we tell ourselves then?
00:39:49
Catherine
Well, for me, my
00:39:53
UKRunChat
Because like like you were saying earlier, Catherine, you you were you got back in, you got into your running and you were you were doing really well. And then you lost confidence. Why? Why does that happen at this stage of life, even if you've been runners for years?
00:40:07
UKRunChat
Do you think?
00:40:10
Catherine
well for me my My losing confidence in running actually kind of came because I had children and then physical factors got in the way and i wasn't able to get out and do it in the same way. And and then i had, you know, all of those associations of postpartum bodies, etc. and not being able to do it. So and I was very much driven by the fact that, well, I've got two young children. i'm massively overweight at the time. um it felt like too big of a mountain to climb couldn't carve out that space for me it was only when the children got older and then when when things began to change a little bit you know time freaked up a bit more everyone slept a bit more that i actually decided to start doing something about it um so my sort of breaking running came in my 30s as opposed to my 40s um i think for me though the the
00:41:02
Catherine
The time where I nearly stopped again, again, which is when Pippa came in and interjected, was because of that frustration around performance. and not It's very easy when you're on an upwards trajectory, like if you go back to running after a break,
00:41:15
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:41:18
Catherine
everything feels new again, you know, you're hitting great times, and you know, your performance is on an upwards curve. And then when you plateau, it's very difficult then to continue and find that motivation. So it's either that I stopped and I knew I didn't want to stop or I did something differently because I wasn't seeing changes in my performance. And then changing that mentality around how I approached running and was really important for me.
00:41:44
UKRunChat
Yeah, so it's it's changing what we do really and and how we train, isn't it?
00:41:49
Catherine
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:41:51
UKRunChat
Yeah, which I guess is what you've been trying to to help with Pippa.
00:41:52
Catherine
eleven
00:41:55
UKRunChat
So so tell us kind of what tell us about your trail running retreat then. So when when and where is it happening? what's What's going on there and how can people get involved?
00:42:04
Catherine
So, so we're,
00:42:05
UKRunChat
Hmm.
00:42:05
Catherine
So we're in the Cotswolds, so we're in a lovely, hilly, undulating part of the country. and So the retreats are going be based in the Cotswolds around here, so trails that we know really well. But the benefit as well is that they are perfect trails for people that haven't done trail running before. and None of the terrain is overly technical.
00:42:26
Catherine
So you don't have overly um steep ascents or descents. It's like say, it's undulating. um And then the yeah the the most difficult terrain is very, very deep mud um and lots and lots of puddles and you know wading through knee high water at times. But and to know we know the Cotswolds really well. The trails are stunning. and you know You can't do a run really that doesn't encompass amazing views and chocolate box villages.
00:42:56
Catherine
um So we're perfectly paced to offer something um for that sort of beginner um market. and So we're operating a weekend retreat initially, which is going to be the first weekend in October next year, so or 2026. So it will be running from the 2nd to the 5th of October, and we've got beautiful self-catering Cotswold property, massive rambling barn. and that we're taking over for the weekend.
00:43:29
Catherine
And yeah, so we'll be taking people out on the trails every morning. and What we want to make sure is that we're catering to all abilities through that. So and it is open to beginners, and but also and we are opening it up to people that want to enhance and improve their running and and their endurance on the trails.
00:43:50
Catherine
So we do have access, obviously we've got PIPA, I'm in the process of securing run leader qualifications as well. But we will have other run leaders on the on the retreat as well to really divide the group up based on ability to make sure that everyone gets um you know gets the experience that they want.
00:44:09
Catherine
and And yeah, from an inclusivity perspective, we you know the the beginner group will have tower walkers as well to ensure that if anyone gets left behind, you know that that they're not left behind.
00:44:22
Catherine
So it's genuine inclusivity.
00:44:23
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:44:24
Catherine
and now I can remember going on hiking holidays previously and it being built as sort of inclusive and and being at the back of the pack and sort panting to catch up with everyone and everyone waiting for me.
00:44:36
Catherine
And then as soon as I got there, everyone continued. So it wasn't really and inclusive in that sense. But no, we're very keen to make sure that everyone has a place.
00:44:47
Catherine
and There obviously will be sort of some minimum fitness requirements um in terms of, you know, we do expect people to be able to cover the distance of five miles and with a pace of around 20 minutes. and So, i.e. reasonably brisk walk across and across trails as ah as a benchmark entry. and And then, as we said, Pippa will be there providing nutritional support throughout the weekend. So those workshops will be really interactive and practical so people can take away um know genuine skills that will help them carry that knowledge forward in their daily lives.
00:45:26
Catherine
I think Peppa mentioned before that we're bringing um Angie on board as well, and who's won won and placed in various championships from both a running duo athlete and um powerlifting perspective.
00:45:32
Pippa
Mm-hmm.
00:45:41
Catherine
But her passion, she's through the other side now and and of menopause, but her passion is very much and supporting women as they grow, as as we go through this period really.
00:45:55
Catherine
And what she wants to and deliver as well is that help women feel equipped to, you know, we understand that we need to start lifting as we get older, you know, that that's generally and an accepted norm now that we need to start lifting heavier as we get older, but then balancing that.
00:46:12
Pippa
I don't know if it really is widely accepted. I think it might be in our world, but um I think in the grand scheme of things, the people I speak to are generally quite naive to that still.
00:46:18
Catherine
Yeah, maybe.
00:46:26
UKRunChat
Yeah, we live in a fitness bubble, don't we?
00:46:26
Catherine
yeah a Yeah, I'm probably taking that from a what floods my social media all the time.
00:46:28
UKRunChat
So Yeah.
00:46:28
Pippa
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:29
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:46:34
Catherine
So yeah, absolutely.
00:46:34
Pippa
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:35
Catherine
what Yeah, absolutely. You're right. Probably are we asking a bubble around it. and But for me, the tension point, particularly on the strength side is you spend all your time as a runner.
00:46:47
Catherine
doing strength conditioning to understand how to make sure, you know, to prevent injury or return from injury, et cetera. So how to balance that alongside that emerging requirements and lift heavier as you get older and how to fit it all in in a sensible, sustainable way and where to start.
00:47:05
Catherine
So yeah, and you'll be.
00:47:06
Pippa
and why and why you need to do that and what the importance of that is um
00:47:10
UKRunChat
Yeah, because there's a fear, isn't there, of of being bigger, becoming bigger.
00:47:10
Catherine
Yeah.
00:47:14
UKRunChat
And that's realistically not not going to happen, is it?
00:47:15
Pippa
yeah absolutely no and i think also from a runner's perspective particularly especially from my perspective if there's if you are an established runner and you enjoy your running um fitting
00:47:17
UKRunChat
but
00:47:19
Catherine
Yeah.
00:47:30
Pippa
heavy lifting in around your run sessions and avoiding that empty, heavy legs, um loss of performance feeling the next day because you've gone too hard in your lifting and not being strategic enough about where you put it in your training plan.
00:47:49
Pippa
I think that that's a barrier that has been a barrier to me for many years. I've sort of cracked it through Angie's help. now um but i knew that strength was something that was sorely missing from my training plan and if i didn't manage to nail it i wouldn't be moving up to the next level anytime soon and would probably end up with some sort of injury sooner rather than later um and so it's i think people have all sorts of different barriers to to strength training and lifting
00:48:13
Catherine
Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:22
Pippa
um not ah sort of let alone, you know, how, how they do it. How, did how do you start? um And, you know, how do you lift safely?
00:48:34
Pippa
There's lots of worries and fears around that. So i thought we thought, we felt it was really important to have someone like Angie on board um to help people start to find out how they can, they can do this and make it sustainable into later life.
00:48:51
Catherine
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I'm coming from a lifetime of doing body pump classes. and I'm sure that probably resonates with a lot of people as well, but how to move from that sort of body pump.
00:49:01
Catherine
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I know how to lift weights mentality to actually what it really means and and how, yeah, what you need to get started and how to start. um Yeah, so...
00:49:12
Pippa
and I think the beauty of it really in for for people who are busy in midlife is actually to lift effectively. You don't need a lot of time. It doesn't take a lot of time as long as it's effective.
00:49:24
Catherine
Yeah. Yeah, say they
00:49:24
Pippa
And so it's just sort of initially helping people to understand what they need to do. But I was amazed at how little time really takes um and how few exercises you really need to know.
00:49:37
Pippa
So it's really valuable, i think, her her part in it.
00:49:42
UKRunChat
Yeah, what what um what difference have you noticed strength training in is made to to your training Pippa?
00:49:43
Catherine
state day
00:49:49
Pippa
um Well, so my hand was slightly forced, I'm not going lie, because I ran till I was 35 weeks pregnant with my little one. um And then my pelvic pain and issues got in the way. And I just didn't feel it was safe anymore. Yeah.
00:50:10
Pippa
but I didn't want to do nothing. So I started his strength training. I had been strength training since early in pregnancy. I decided that needed to be a factor. um But it has enabled me For me specifically, it's enabled me to come back, bounce back really quick um with no negative effects.
00:50:31
Pippa
My pelvic floor works fine. Thank you very much. And I'm hoping it always will be.
00:50:34
Catherine
Thank you.
00:50:36
Pippa
It always will be working fine. um But also I am running faster times than before I had i was pregnant with him.
Balancing Performance and Enjoyment
00:50:45
Pippa
think...
00:50:45
UKRunChat
yeah
00:50:47
Pippa
um i think pregnancy seems to have like, or post the postpartum period for me, 10 seems to have a kind of, it leaves me with a bit of grit and a bit of kind of maybe because I've had to have some time off, or I don't know what it is. But you know, after i started running after my daughter was born, and it sort of gave me what I needed to get to half marathons and marathons. And now this to sort of eight years later, um the same things happened. And it's it seems to springboard me to the next level. And this i took Angie on board as my coach probably...
00:51:28
Pippa
when Francis was six months old, I guess. Um, and no, maybe, maybe, maybe 10 months old and just having her on board and helping me work out how to lift safely. i mean, my, my training has, has gone to the next level. Really. I'm now looking at, um, I've, I've got close to my half marathon um,
00:51:55
Pippa
pb um that I set six years ago. um ah did that in September. um And on Sunday, I'm hoping to run a 10K PB. um So it like done done with appropriate timing in a sustainable training pattern, um it can really, um really elevate your training capabilities.
00:52:23
UKRunChat
Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic to hear actually. Yeah, that's brilliant. So you've kind of, you're still getting close to those PBs and hoping to create new ones now. That's fantastic.
00:52:34
UKRunChat
And yet, we again, i just want to reiterate, we don't need to be doing that in midlife, do we? We can still go out and enjoy running just for running's sake as well.
00:52:44
Pippa
Well, this is the thing.
00:52:44
UKRunChat
And I think you've got a really good balance between the two of you there. Yeah.
00:52:47
Pippa
Yeah.
00:52:47
Catherine
Yeah, absolutely.
00:52:48
Pippa
And I think, you know, where you were talking about lack of confidence, you know, I think everyone has been through those times. And i certainly have, especially when I was approaching the Europeans the first time, I was definitely way I was in, I was way through my stretch zone into the panic zone.
00:53:10
Pippa
And I was having like multiple meltdowns about turning up to my training sessions. And I had to be I think each time i have a period of that that I find really tough, i have to be really tough on myself because it's,
00:53:27
Pippa
I think it's so important to to remember for the majority of us, we're not getting paid for this. This is pleasure. you know This is what we do to chill out. And this is something that has to lend itself to our wellbeing.
00:53:40
Pippa
And so I said after Poland, well, A, thank God that's over. um But B, you know I'd pre-qualified for the next one.
00:53:46
Catherine
Thank you.
00:53:49
Pippa
And I was like, oh crap, what am I? you know And I was like, okay, I have to contract with myself here. If I can't show up and be sensible about this, I'm not doing at all. Like there's no point.
00:54:00
Pippa
You know, we're age groupers. We have to pay to turn up to these things.
00:54:04
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:54:04
Pippa
It's not cheap. um You know, it takes time away from family, away from career. You know, you have to choose it and it has to benefit you. um And so I said to myself, I think it was a blessing in disguise that I had to take a pregnancy deferral because it gave me a really good time to sit and reflect. um And in that time, I said, right, if I can't turn up and thoroughly enjoy it for what it is, um and just be thankful for the fact that I'm over 40 and and i can still do this stuff.
00:54:38
Pippa
i you know i'm i can I'm still here and I'm still able to perform at this level.
00:54:39
Catherine
Yeah.
00:54:44
Pippa
and If I can't be truly grateful for every day i can get out there and enjoy what I do, i shouldn't be doing it, really. And it was that conscious choice of...
00:54:58
Pippa
um like, get out there and love it, or just, just don't complain about it, you know, it's, when you, when you bring it back, um I remember story that put it all into perspective, and it was a girl that I used to go to school with, um called Claire Danson, who is a triathlete, and she had a horrible tractor accident, I don't know if you're aware of her, but she'd basically she had a spinal cord injury and she was ah about to get her pro license, I believe, um and was ah an amazingly talented age group athlete.
00:55:24
UKRunChat
No.
00:55:35
Pippa
And she's now paralyzed from the waist down. And she's on my Instagram still. And she has such an amazing story, but also outlook.
00:55:46
Pippa
to her life and the things that she she's still an athlete um and she still competes and she has the most amazing determination but I look at a story like hers and go we can still do everything we want to do you know and I just that there's so many influences I think when you get into the sports world there are so many influences like that that you can take strength from um and they're the people you need to look to for confidence I think um to keep on plugging
00:56:40
Pippa
Yeah.
00:57:33
Pippa
Bye.
00:58:07
UKRunChat
Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's it sounds like both you ladies are in a really good place with with your running. And that's wonderful to hear. um If a listener out there now is struggling with confidence or midlife overwhelm or with the body changing, what would you want them to hear today to help them?
00:58:27
Pippa
Are you going to let me?
00:58:33
Pippa
I think that it's really important to know that every, even even on the most rubbish of days that everything is temporary and that there are still, there are a lot of things outside of our control that we need to let go of, but also to recognize what is't our is in our control um and to really make sure that we take action on those and to remember that in every situation we have something
00:59:07
Pippa
we can choose, we always have a choice.
Advice for Midlife Women in Fitness
00:59:10
Pippa
um And I think to own those choices, it's really empowering. um Even when you feel like you're up against it and you don't have time to train or um on that particular day, or you know you have responsibilities from all angles,
00:59:32
Pippa
to to make a plan for the next time you can train and for the next week or so and can put you in an entirely different mindset to the one that you're in now and actually that is still that's a choice um and it helps it's i think that sense of control and being able to to own something in any situation is is really powerful
00:59:58
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's wonderful, wise advice. Thank you, Pippa. Anything to add to that, Catherine?
01:00:11
UKRunChat
Yeah, ah well well, thank you so much, ladies. That's been such an interesting conversation. i can't believe we've we've chatted about that for an hour. There's so much more we could say as well. and Listeners, we'd love to hear your thoughts on this and and how you're impacted in in midlife with your running. um You can find out more about the Trail and Bloom retreats. I'll put the links in the show notes for you. And and as always, if you've enjoyed this episode, please do share it with somebody else. You might need a bit of encouragement today. Thank you for listening to the UK Run Chat podcast, and we'll see you next time.