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Episode 35: Family Law 101: From Assets to Custody (with Jaime Duggan)
6 Plays1 month ago
This week we dive into all things family law with our guest, Jaime Duggan, a seasoned family law attorney specializing in divorce, child custody, adoptions and premarital agreements.
We're unpacking the complexities of community property laws, including the myth that marital assets are always split 50/50. Jamie will also shed light on the essential roles of pre- and post-marital agreements in protecting property rights and preventing disputes. Plus, we'll explore the risks of DIY divorces and the complex challenges of child custody and support.
+ Don’t miss Jaime weighing in on Sam and Sara's list of reasons to either tie the knot or call it quits.
Join us every Wednesday for new episodes! Subscribe now to get notified.
Where you can find Jaime Duggan:
- IG @DugganFamilyLaw
- FB @DugganFamilyLaw
- info@dugganfamilylaw.com
- (214) 494-1647
Where you can find Burch Law:
- IG @BurchLawTX
- FB @BurchLaw
- YT @LorieBurchLaw
- hello@burch-law.com
- (972) 385-0558
Visit burch-law.com/podcast to reach out!
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Transcript
Introduction to Wills and Estate Planning
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of One of Us Knows What They're Talking About. Another one is you. I'm Lori Burch, your host. Join us as we discuss and unpack wills, trust, estate planning, and probate law in a way that's actually informative, interesting, and well, hopefully entertaining. Because if you don't have a will, the state of Texas has one for you. Let's dive in.
Introduction of Jamie Dugan, Family Law Attorney
00:00:39
Speaker
So today we're joined with someone. We are joined as special guests, Jamie Dugan or Jaime Duggan, depending on your mirror origins.
00:00:54
Speaker
And Jamie will introduce herself, but she is primarily, or really only, a family law attorney. That's all she so she is. And she shares her firm, shares office space with our firm. Although that's not how we met, because that'd be a really weird way to meet. It's not like college where you just get assigned a roommate and it's like you show up. It's like, oh, so you're the law firm that we're sharing with. um So no, we do. Although, although none of us ever see you there. Yeah. And why don't you ever come to this call? Let's dig into that first. Well, I mean, it started with a lot of different things. And now it's evolved to I doing all the sales calls. So
00:01:44
Speaker
Most days I'm literally like back to, but that's why I was late because I was back to back all day long. So it feels like, why would I drive all the way to the office and put on real pants so I can sit alone in my office with the door closed on calls? So that begs the question, fair what kind of pants are you wearing now?
00:02:11
Speaker
Well, I don't want anyone to get too jealous, but they are Kirkland brand sweatpants. Ooh. Very comfy. And they say Kirkland right down the leg. It's nice. Wait a minute. Is that Costco? Yeah. Yeah. Do they have sweatpants there? No, they do. Yeah. Uh-huh.
00:02:36
Speaker
I mean, it's a pretty nice socks to like a really comfy be clear. I don't wear them outside of the house because I don't I don't know that I'm that committed to Kirkland brand, but you're not that committed to giving it up yet.
00:02:48
Speaker
youre
00:02:54
Speaker
you're getting unhappy I feel like you're at the tipping point of just completely giving up. Yep. It really could happen any any minute.
Jamie's Background and Family Law Practice
00:03:03
Speaker
It could happen right now, like during this podcast. I've been suspecting this for years, actually. I'm actually surprised that you haven't given it up yet. Right. I think you're doing great, Jamie. You're doing great, Jamie. Okay. So Jamie, introduce yourself more fully.
00:03:22
Speaker
OK, um I'm Jamie Dugan. I am an attorney, so that is true. um That is not the only thing I am. You know, I have friends and family and I'm a golfer. o And are you a lefty? I am a lefty, yeah which is one of the reasons why I'm so cool. And Lori's so drawn to being my friend.
00:03:54
Speaker
Um, I'm from California. So I grew up in California. And then I came to Texas, um, to go to law school, went to law school, um, at Texas Wesleyan in Fort Worth, which is now Texas A and&M, but started, um, a law firm. I practice family law and somewhere in there I met Lori and, um, then my life changed and got so much better.
00:04:19
Speaker
But I practice family loss, so we do wanna- Oh, Sarah, I need you to isolate what just happened and save that forever. Sorry. Is there anything anything you want her to edit out? Jamie, just tell Sarah, and she will- She probably won't, but you can tell her. Okay, we'll tell her. Yeah. um So Jamie, very exciting introduction. I can tell that you're really ready for this. um I am a special guest today. You would be introducing me.
Understanding Family Law and Community Property
00:04:52
Speaker
you are you Well, I mean, I thought you might want to share some things in your own words, but clearly that was wrong.
00:04:58
Speaker
So tell us primarily in the area of family law, because a lot of people don't understand what we call practice areas, because quite often people think what we do is family law, which I totally get that. It's way more about families than divorce and child custody battles. However, in the um the Grand Poobah of deciding legal practice areas I don't know who decided these things we are not family law you are family law so what what is family law and then what are the primary cases that that you take family law first of all is a practice the ah practice area that actually does have more to do with
00:05:46
Speaker
people's daily lives in their family and how they interact with each other. And um so it's definitely more family law than, you know, the states trust. It includes things like divorce,
00:06:03
Speaker
um child custody cases. So if you are not married, but you have a child with somebody, then and they that's a custody case. We, um and And there's like, but there are things that are all included in in custody that includes you know visitation or child support or um enforcement of child support. If someone's not not paying that, that's all custody. That's all family law. um We also do adoptions and name changes and gender marker corrections.
00:06:38
Speaker
Um, and then we also do property agreements. So that's either a premarital agreement. So an agreement that you would make with your spouse before you get married about how you want your property, the things that you accumulate to be, um, divided. Or after you get married, you can also make an agreement that would be a postmarital agreement. So we, we put together those contracts between spouses also.
00:07:11
Speaker
Excellent. So Jamie, how dumb is community property? Man, i like on a scale, one to 10, maybe 12.
00:07:25
Speaker
we dumb It certainly is confusing. Folks really have a hard time with it, I think. Um, and in there's not very, what is it? Six or seven States, I think that have community property. I believe it's nine. Okay. Um, I think the concept itself like could to sort of make sense. And really what it is, is that anything, everything that you get while you're married is considered community property. And that means that both spouse spouses have an interest in it. So.
00:08:03
Speaker
I mean, that seems pretty simple, right? Your income, your paycheck. If you buy a car, you buy a house. It doesn't matter if the car's in your name or your spouse's name. If you buy it during the marriage, it's still community
Challenges in Estate Planning and Marital Agreements
00:08:20
Speaker
property. It belongs to both of you. It's like forcing you to share with your spouse. I mean, so that's kind of nice, right? Oh, Sarah has a- Have you said paycheck? Yeah. Yeah, girl.
00:08:31
Speaker
Sarah. Yeah. Yeah. your common law roommate that you have. Okay, stop because we're perpetuating this. We're making her different prongs of the test. I said roommate. She does not use a common law. She does not represent herself to be common law at all. Do you not hold yourself out to be very concerned about it? So maybe she do not hold yourself out to roommates. Stop. One thing. That's literally what I said.
00:09:06
Speaker
yeah So my favorite part of community property is it's it's it's kind of an easier way a lot of the times even in the legal biz where we'll say 50-50. But the fun thing is is it's actually not 50-50. So if you have a candy bar and it's community property, it's not like you can break it in half and here's your half and here's your half, is that you both have equal rights to the entire candy bar. Yes.
00:09:32
Speaker
And I think that's, and so for estate planning purposes, what gets a little tricky for us is when we have people that if they pass, they don't necessarily want everything to go to their spouse, which there's lots of reasons. I think one of the most common reasons, or I should say one that I understand because most of them I don't understand. I think it's ridiculous.
00:09:58
Speaker
But one of the ones where it's like, oh, that makes sense is when people get like remarried later in life And they have they have kids they got their own families, but you know, they want to get married for companionship companionship love like all of that but as far as their money or assets they their their spouse doesn't need it to survive that they don't need any of that and they want to make sure that it goes back to their own families and And so that's really where um you know sometimes when we're having a meeting with clients, they're they're not expecting, like they might expect with you, to hear things like pre-marital agreements or post-marital agreements. And I mean, their eyes get so bugged out. And half the time once we go through this, not even half the time, like 90% of the time where we go through it and talk about how
00:10:48
Speaker
they're trying to accomplish X, this is how you get there, and um they choose not to do it. It's like, well, have fun. All I can hope is that I die before you. I often think of that with clients. But the point is is that ah pre and even post-marital agreements, and the only difference primarily is one you do before you get married and one you do.
00:11:13
Speaker
after you're married, but from estate planning, and then I want to talk about family law, but estate planning is not about contemplating if you all divorce, it's just about making the statement of this is yours, this is mine, this is ours, and this is how this is how we this is how things are going into the marriage, and this is how we're going to acquire things going forward in our marriage. yeah And I think In a lot of scenarios, it's just a really smart thing to do, but it's more paperwork, it's more expense, um unlike
00:11:50
Speaker
doing a estate planning for a couple where the same firm can most of the time do that for both of them. You need two different attorneys involved representing each one, but it really can be a smart thing to do. so The last thing I want to say that comes up with us, and Jamie, I want you to talk about pre-marital post-marital agreements, community property, is my favorite thing is when people have the audacity to ask me divorce questions,
00:12:14
Speaker
Because it's so the answers are so different when you say if so-and-s so and so dies who gets this and We just have to ask a series of questions and then we can give you the answer When it's divorce and you know you bear the brunt of this more than than we do because we're like Oh, let's refer you to do get and have a ah consultation with them to tell you who gets what and It's really whatever the hell you guys will agree to.
Community Property in Divorce and Wills
00:12:43
Speaker
It's not like this given that, you know, your husband's gonna get this, or wife's gonna get that, or you're entitled to this. or youre It is absolutely 100% whatever you all will agree to. Everything, unless you have a pre-mup, right? Everything else, tear up, throw out the window. It does not matter. It's completely different than when you ask an estate planning attorney what happens when someone dies.
00:13:08
Speaker
So, Jamie, take it from there. Yes, I mean, you can you can only give to someone something in your your will or your trust that which belongs to you. So when you when you say. If you don't have a ah pre or post marital agreement and you and let's let's say you and your spouse buy a house together, it's community property.
00:13:36
Speaker
and you decide in your estate planning that you want um the house to be sold and the proceeds to go half to your spouse and half to, I don't know, one of your favorite children. You're only giving away your portion of the community property. So your spouse they has their own portion of the community property, which is that chocolate bar um idea, like the I think the the part of it also that makes it really fun is that, you know, Laura was right when she said there is no 50 50. So probably that's probably the most common thing that we we have to educate our clients on. There is no 50 50 in Texas. That happens a lot in other states, a lot in TV shows and in the movies.
00:14:32
Speaker
not a thing in Texas. So the law says that um the community property has to be divided. It has to be divided at some point. Either you're going to get divorced or or one of you's will pass. Then it has to be divided and it's to be divided in a way that is just and right. Is that the code? Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
00:14:55
Speaker
So I would imagine that what Lori thinks is Justin Wright is probably not the same as what Sam thinks is Justin Wright. I think Sam's correct. Oh, that's not true. Well, maybe that might be true, but I will tell you that whatever Sam thinks is Justin Wright is 100% what Sarah thinks is Justin Wright because they share a brain cell. And it's not a 50-50. They both have equal access to the same brain cell. Well, that's good. Then they can collaborate. Yeah.
00:15:27
Speaker
Yeah, yes sometimes it doesn't go so well. no but but i I have no idea why that made me ask this question, but have you seen the story of these conjoined twins where one of them got married? How does that work, Jamie?
00:15:50
Speaker
Everyone slowly takes this question. I mean, how is that different from anything else? because she's literally attached to her sister. like i get you sister like i don't know she's in the company I wish I had fully formed this this question in my head.
00:16:11
Speaker
mother's thinking shared a brain cell kind of made me think of this And I've seen this story. And, you know, a lot of people, you know, go into the gutter and think about those things. freeman Think through it that way. That's fine. But I'm just thinking,
00:16:28
Speaker
from. If you marry a conjoined twin, does the twin you didn't marry have any rights to your property? Is that what we're getting at? I mean, I guess not. Any secret people, right? They're just not separate physically. They are literally not separate people. That's the point of the question.
00:16:55
Speaker
Legally, like they have their own certificate. Yeah, I would assume so. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, you can't marry two people, so you're only married to the one. Not anymore. I know. All right. So let's move on for this. I'm im sorry that the brain cell conversation f led to this.
00:17:21
Speaker
like like i think good heres going <unk>ia went to google And this is interesting. Um, I don't really trust the AI overview. However, it says in most jurisdictions, community property laws likely treat conjoined twins as a single entity, meaning all assets acquired during their shared lifetime would be considered community properly, equally divided between them, regardless of which one earned the income. Yes. Between the.
00:17:51
Speaker
Yes, the twins. All right. You have like somebody married and they have a house with their spouse. The conjoined twin is like living with them. Right. So that makes it. But reading the AI overview is a complete contradiction to the whole premise of this podcast that when I know that's why I'm letting you know, so you can. Yeah. Again, I think.
00:18:16
Speaker
I think it's a fascinating question. Yeah, I wonder how many cases cases there have been on that. I had to do some research and all the case law. Yeah, I think that's what we need to come back to. OK, well, circle put up this is Sarah really likes corporate jargon, so she'd like to put a pin in it and circle back. Like on this edition or like a future one when just amongst ourselves at the very least. never you come back oh you know oh in this avenue you said no we we're not going to circle back to it because we'll have you you like in a few weeks jamie If you think we're off the rails now, wait until we get to the Sarah and Sam ask the expert segment. We did this with Sam Johnson but and they pitched potential business ideas to him and he got to say whether he's hard.
00:19:14
Speaker
And so they have is really off the rails. You don't, you should join and week and you should join us every week. We have a permanent spot for you.
Pitfalls of DIY Divorces
00:19:25
Speaker
and So I have a question for family law attorneys because we encounter this stuff all the time and it's frustrating and it's annoying and I just presume there's something that we don't understand that's happening on your end for us to be able to deal with this better. But when a so when one spouse is awarded the home in a divorce decree,
00:19:49
Speaker
We often, like, first of all, I wanna know what your firm does, if anything, to actually reflect that in the title of the home. And what happens to us is then we have a single person who comes to us that wants to, let's say, do a trust, and they wanna deed their home to the trust, and then the home's actually in the name of their ex with them, and we have to figure out what to do. Like, that that is a very common scenario, so what say ye?
00:20:18
Speaker
yeah So when... Weird what our firm does so to be clear this not all attorneys do this and it's frustrating um If we have something like that in the divorce decree We're going to make sure that we put something in place so that those transfers actually happen the same thing for um Like a 401k if we were dividing that there's work that needs to be done after the divorce decree is entered So that those things can be split
00:20:51
Speaker
So um the easiest thing to do is to include in the divorce decree a requirement that whoever's not getting the house signs whatever deed is necessary to be signed.
00:21:05
Speaker
So we include specific parameters. We also draft the deed before um you know the case is over. And so the divorce decree says you have to sign this deed within X amount of time. And then we make sure that the deed is in our cases. We make sure that those deeds are filed with the property records before we close out the case with our office.
00:21:28
Speaker
Do you often see, though, that other family law attorneys just don't do their due diligence on this, that they're just like, oh, got you divorce. You're on your own. Or let's talk about this scenario when people try to do their own divorce.
00:21:46
Speaker
what Let's talk about that because we talk a lot about how horrid it is for people to DIY Their estate planning and we actually had a guest a while ago um a friend of mine through leadership Plano who did a DIY divorce and then her ex died and because they didn't do the divorce correctly and he died without a will and I mean, it's it' very hard and tragic for her. However, it gives people like you and me such great fodder to be able to demonstrate. And that's and she was very open and candid about how terrible what she did was. um And so explain a little bit, if you would, about kind of the pitfalls and dangers of trying to do DIY divorce. Well, if we're using that the house scenario specifically, i mean
00:22:40
Speaker
There's plenty of people who don't, you know, speak to their spouse after they get divorced. um And so maybe you're not going to keep up with them and know where they are. So if you're getting the house and they don't sign a deed, when you go to do something with the house, like put it in a trust or give it to somebody or sell it, you can't because there's not a deed that says you have the interest in the house.
00:23:07
Speaker
So the problems could be you don't even know where they are anymore. Like how are you going to get in contact with them to have them sign a deed? The other issue is there's nothing legally forcing them to sign the deed. If the the the form um divorce decrees that you can get online and do it yourself, it's easy. You just check some boxes.
00:23:36
Speaker
It doesn't include things like that. It'll say who you decide is going to be awarded the house. So this but spouse is awarded the house done. They've got the house. But unless you know how to make that happen, obviously that's the issue. I think one another part of that that's really scary and frustrating is what you're going to do with the mortgage. Right. There's plenty of people who don't have a mortgage on their their property. And so that's not an issue.
00:24:03
Speaker
But if both spouses are on the mortgage, then whoever gets the house, it doesn't relieve the other person of the financial responsibility for the mortgage. It'll probably say the spouse who gets the house has to pay the mortgage. Great. What happens if they don't pay it?
00:24:27
Speaker
Right. The other spouse is still going to have that on their credit. They're still going to have issues with that. The house could still get foreclosed if the mortgage is never paid. um So there's things that you can do to safeguard ah against those things also, but only if you know that you need to do them. So most people haven't gone through a divorce and aren't going to know that on their own.
00:24:53
Speaker
if they do So that actually hits on what my friend's scenario was or part of the issue was, and that is not just mortgage, but all debt. Because in in a divorce, you need to establish whoses care you know who gets what debt, who's taking care of all of that.
00:25:09
Speaker
And I would imagine that it's fairly common when people are trying to do this on their own That they miss the boat big time. They're thinking about the things and I do want to get to kids um Custody of kids child support all of that but um that they're not necessarily really looking at debts and liabilities Right. they it is It's actually really important to have specific language. I mean, you all know this, obviously, same thing for for wills and trusts and all of that, but there has to be specific language in these court orders so that you can enforce them. You can make someone do something
00:25:50
Speaker
that's put in there. So let's say the the decree that you get online, DIY, says, um I agree to pay the American Express credit card. Or that debt is awarded to me. I'm awarded the debt on the American Express credit
Custody Battles and Legal Nuances
00:26:08
Speaker
card. Yay! Thank you. Okay, so great. I'm awarded it. If that's all it says,
00:26:17
Speaker
then when I don't pay that, my ex spouse now has no way to make me pay that. It's got to include things like I have to pay it to American Express directly when it's due on this date and this amount that has to be specific about what I'm supposed to do. Otherwise, there's no way to make me do it. If I go if if my ex-spouse went to the court and says, as you didn't pay that, then the judge would say, OK, well, I can't make up language that's going to make her pay that. Right. So it seems to me, though, that that leads to the same issue that we see is that
00:26:54
Speaker
If you do want to enforce something that you did on your own, at some point you're going to have to get an attorney and it's going to be a lot messier and more expensive. And that's the same thing. Like with, with wills and trust, like you, when you pass away, you'll have to have an attorney then there's like 0.0001 type of probate cases when someone dies where a Texas court will allow you to not have an attorney, meaning basically every type of probate procedure when somebody passes away requires an attorney. So at some point you're going to have to hire an attorney um more likely than not, and it's going to be messier and more expensive to do that. So it's not like you're even saving any sort of fees or money or hassle or mess, you're just creating more of it.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, and some things that you do can't be fixed. So if you don't do it right the first way, then there may not be a way to to fix it later. Especially when you're dead. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:27:53
Speaker
Um, so we also do other things to we, we include language that makes the decree, immunism of title. So if we couldn't get a deed signed, we can file that with the county records. Oh, nice. I've never heard of that before. That's really good. Um, I do have a question, Sarah and Sam, if you were to get divorced, who would get the brain cell or would it would it be like joint custody? What if they just come from joint then?
00:28:24
Speaker
yeah we just um so Speaking of custody, because you and your firm and our firm deal a lot, if not primarily with people, individuals and couples who have young children.
00:28:41
Speaker
Yes, and so we'll get to some of the more nuances with like second parent adoption all of that, but let's let's stick to how custody works when you're working that out with people and how horrible are some parents using their children as leverage In these things and that is probably the number one reason why I could not do family law and why i'm so appreciative Of people like you who do have a passion for it and are willing to do this Um, just as i'm sure there's attorneys that are appreciative that we do the death dying and disability stuff Um, but yes, that's just horrid. So talk talk a little bit about
00:29:23
Speaker
just your experience and and what happens good and bad when it comes to child custody as well as child support and last piece because this is something that I think I remember from the bar exam but please confirm it is that really long tempt to not you can You cannot use child custody and child support as dependent on each other. So if you've got someone who's withholding child support, you can't withhold visitation from them. Like you didn't pay your child support, you don't get to see your kid.
00:29:57
Speaker
but Anyway, go. All you. You also can't um make an agreement that says we're together now, but if, you know, we separate in five years, you're going to pay me child support. Can't do that stuff either. oh yeah We've had people want to do that. And oh, that reminds me of interesting things people have wanted in a premarital agreement. So so that and I want to talk about custody. um I want you to do that. So I'm going to make a note to circle back to interesting things in premarital agreements.
00:30:26
Speaker
I think, of course, there's a ton of horror stories, things that we've seen that parents do, that, frankly, other attorneys do to kind of make custody issues worse than they have to be. Oh, we don't know any attorneys like that, do we, Jamie? No, zero.
00:30:48
Speaker
um and really the the goal at least in our firm the goal in custody cases divorce cases is to try to get us to an agreement if we can make an agreement ultimately that's better for everyone costs less less attorneys fees less stress emotional you know draining all of that stuff. So especially when it comes to custody, we will try to make agreements if we can. And so that includes helping our clients understand what they're actually fighting for or over um and then creative ways to kind of alleviate that stuff. So, and you know, when we're talking about child custody, there's really three parts. One part is the rights and duties who gets to decide
00:31:38
Speaker
and make decisions about education or um you know getting tonsils out, those kinds of things. The second part is the schedule, where the kid's gonna be in when. And then the third part is financial support, so child support, health insurance.
00:31:54
Speaker
So a lot of times it's probably the the biggest thing we hear. um Folks will call and say, we talk to them, I want sole custody. Or my spouse is saying they want sole custody. And really, that means a lot of different things to people. That's not a thing necessarily that is in Texas. So we can piece all of those things apart and say, OK, what part of this is that? What is it that you're really looking for? And maybe what other things do we not have to fight over because they're not going to make a big difference?
00:32:25
Speaker
in your day-to-day life.
00:32:29
Speaker
um So helping i mean and helping our clients understand that really is a big piece of it so that we're not we're not spending time unnecessarily fighting over things that really aren't gonna matter. Jamie, to what extent are you able to basically remove any sort of custodial rights, visitation rights, or anything from a legal parent? It's ah it's very difficult to do. um If you are a legal parent, there has to be sort of extreme extenuating circumstances for you to not to have any visitation rights to to your child.
00:33:15
Speaker
um For a judge to give you that, there has to be child abuse, neglect, um you know hat creating some kind of um unsafe environment like and knowt drug use and um where you're living situation, something that's really beyond. They get punished by losing their iPad and I don't like that.
00:33:45
Speaker
It can't be different in parenting styles. Yeah, and if if I remember correctly again, because I've never practiced family law, I only knew enough to pass a bar exam twice.
00:33:57
Speaker
um But is it something where it like even the danger like it has to be like immediate and imminent, it can't be something where like it could happen or, you know, they kind of know someone who's doing drugs and this and that, you know, it's like it has to be very likely or or, like I said, imminent.
00:34:17
Speaker
Yeah, so there can be kind of like a progression of things. So if we're thinking about something like imminent like that, we we can if there's you know depending on the circumstances, we can ask judges for a sort of emergency type order um that allows us to remove the child from the other parent's possession. And that can only be for a really short window of time. It's like 14 days. And then we have to have a hearing in front of the judge, and the judge has to decide you know what's going to happen in the long-term basis.
00:34:46
Speaker
or even you know for the time being. But if you've got um you know a parent, let's say maybe they've see there's drug use. um and they get have positive drug tests throughout the case, if they stop using, you know, maybe their levels are going down, they're kind of getting things together, um the judge has to allow reasonable visitation that's not going to be put the child in harm. So yeah having that kind of an issue that isn't, isn't I mean, that's it's a huge issue, but if it's,
00:35:24
Speaker
um being worked on and dealt with, that's not a reason to terminate parental rights forever or determine visitation. You know, where we see some of that is it is fairly common that when we have divorced parents, that when it comes to guardianship, that is who would take care of your child if you die and they're under 18, they don't want their the other legal parent, their ex, to be that person.
00:35:52
Speaker
And it's like I feel you and I get you But it doesn't it nine times out of ten or 99 percent of the time really it's it's not going to work that way and so We have to and i'm actually excited because you alluded to something when uh, when we were talking about prior to this In slack what you might want to bring up and it's actually one of the sill it has to do with custody ah and so forth of pets because sam and sarah actually You all were I think all of you were sharing the same brain cell today because what you had put Jamie as a potential topic was also something That these two hooligans had also thought of so we are getting close to time We're ready to wrap up not because there is a time limit for the podcast but because I have things I need to go do today um, but I do want to mention a few more things and that is um,
00:36:43
Speaker
So are there like really interesting things you've had people want to put in premarital
Humorous Premarital Agreements
00:36:48
Speaker
agreements? Because we we do just a ah just a few of them. And my favorite one was somebody who wanted to put in a fidelity clause. And as I had to, it's OK. Look at Sarah's face. She's going to go Google fidelity.
00:37:05
Speaker
no
00:37:08
Speaker
I'm very googling it for her. Do you know what instability is, Sarah? What it means? Yeah, yeah. I'm like telepathically telling her. And so yeah and the instances like that are like some of the, I think the most fun instances of having to be a lawyer because nothing is black and white in the law. And so I had to ask him, I said, well, sure, we, we can do that.
00:37:34
Speaker
However, we need to define what what infidelity is. Is it texting? Is it kissing? Is it penetration? Is it like, I don't want to have to bring these things up, but if you want something like that, we have to be able to define what is is, right? and And then what are the consequences of if it happens?
00:38:00
Speaker
because there's no point to saying you can't do this. If we don't, then say, well, then if you do this, then this happens. So anyway, I don't know if you've had that particular instance, but what are, what are some other things? And I guess c since he has a question since he is, is this the time for your question or do we want Jamie to respond? And and then whatever your question is. Um, she can respond it after that just before everything derails.
00:38:24
Speaker
Um, further
00:38:27
Speaker
OK, this this part, I just so this is like a side comment. I don't I'm afraid because what if is it like are my clients going to be looking at this? Surely not, right? Because they're going to be like, oh, yeah, that was me. Well, we are. um What are we, Sarah? We are in the 20 20 percent 20 percent of podcasts spotified on Spotify.
00:38:55
Speaker
Okay, so yes, to answer your question, learn like they're there's no end to the creativity um of people when they're trying to put together their their property. We're fully worded. Thank you. um We've definitely had some some interesting, one of the ones that I thought was had never occurred to me, but if we get divorced within a certain amount of time, then The one spouse has to pay back the other spouse's family for the cost of the wedding. Kind of liked that.
00:39:27
Speaker
So you got to stay in there for a little bit. I like that. That's starting to get to my level of petty. I like that. Yeah. Approve. Even though I have one one time that this isn't like super crazy. It just kind of, I just chuckled a little. Um, I had one spouse, not my client, the other side who wanted to make sure like specifically was put in there that, um, he will get the Xbox. And I thought the amount of,
00:39:54
Speaker
like telling your attorney and telling us like you just spent more money on attorney's fees than you did on the cost of an Xbox. But I mean, I don't know. Maybe it was some sort of collector Xbox or something was very important.
00:40:07
Speaker
I doubt seriously it was, yeah. But I think, you know, people, what I like is, can we do this? Can we do this? Can we put in this? Can we put in that? And the answer usually is, yeah, if to your point, we get it in all of the specifics and we figure out a way to do it. But my question is always, is your spouse going to sign this?
00:40:29
Speaker
are they going to do this? Because yeah, we can put in whatever we want. But if they don't agree to it, then how how many pre pre nups have you been hired to put together that don't end up getting signed? Because we've had a number of those. Yeah, I would say, I mean, I don't know, maybe 2010 20%.
00:40:51
Speaker
It happens. Definitely happens. Yeah. I think, you know, it's too it's ah it's over what the concept makes sense. Right. But then when you get the document, it's like 40 pages long. And so then it just feels really overwhelming. And why are you saying this and that? And it's personal. all Technically, it's 20 pages long. You just have to repeat everything for each one of them. So it's 40 pages, but it's only 20 pages of information because Party A, Party B, Party A, Party B, Party A, Party B.
00:41:21
Speaker
That's very efficient. Yeah, the law is wonderful. Cynthia, what did you have as a question? um My question to you is how often do you get ah cases where you have to represent people that are fighting CPS on something? Because I know some family law attorneys handle those but others don't. Yeah, you know, it's um We are firm definitely handles those those types of cases They're theirs you know, even more sad, I think, really, um because you've got this whole other entity, CPS, right that right, that we're fighting with. And CPS actually has a sort of maybe scary amount of um power when it comes to removing children and and putting things in place in order for you to to
00:42:13
Speaker
you know how have them released from CPS care. um So we do handle them. you know Because it's a government entity, um depending on what CPS is requesting, um then there a lot of times the parents have to be appointed an attorney if they can't afford one on their own.
00:42:35
Speaker
um So often, um and we we don't handle appointments. So it kind of depends on the circumstances. But yeah, we do. it's It's complicated. And it's really, there's a lot of people involved in that type of a case.
Complexity of Family Law Cases with CPS
00:42:50
Speaker
So I'm actually surprised. Go ahead, Cynthia.
00:42:54
Speaker
ah There's just a lot of people who don't realize how whenever CPS gets involved with children, how quickly they can be removed and also how each party really needs to have an attorney, even the child gets an attorney headlight them to represent their interest. There's just so many aspects of that that people don't think is family law until they're threatening their spouse that I'm going to call CPS or former spouse, I'm going to call CPS on you or the other legal parent of their child.
00:43:20
Speaker
so And one of the CVS boards involved, it's really complicated. I think one of the aspects of it that we probably handle more often is a family member or a foster parent who's wanting to intervene, step in, and and have you know have custody of the child. That's probably something we do more often. but yeah I'm actually surprised at how interesting this was. It's not what I was going to predict when we invited you on the show, Jamie. And so I feel like there's, I think, Sarah, get with Jamie on getting her to come back because I would, if we don't get... Two, if we don't get to the Sam, Sarah asks the expert segment, then everybody will be disappointed. There will be a 20% of Spotify or 80%. Anyway, I don't know how that works. Anyway, a lot of people are going to be disappointed.
00:44:11
Speaker
that we don't get to this. So we need to get you back. I definitely want to talk more about second parent adoptions, particularly for the LGBTQ community is there's a lot of concerns throughout that lately, um choosing attorneys, you know, and and what to look for. So those are great topics. We'll dive into those again. But um without further ado, Sam and Sarah have put together some questions that they have for you. And even before we do that, um Memphis is wanting to get in and he just got a haircut. I was promising that we were gonna show, come here, baby. Excuse me. Oh, I can't even really tell, can you?
00:44:57
Speaker
it's I see he's clear like beer. yeah Yeah, you can tell where he looks like. Yeah. Did you give him a haircut? No, he went to a kitty groomer. I didn't even know that was a thing. Apparently, and this is according to our vet, he's fat, he's lazy, which is common among male cats.
00:45:19
Speaker
And so and because he's a fluff ball Then he needs extra special care because you just don't want
Humorous Anecdotes and Future Topics
00:45:26
Speaker
to clean yourself. Do you know you don't like good boy? Oh, he's just the sweetest kitty ever anyway, and now and Sam and Sarah asked the expert. Here you go All right, we have a few questions for you, okay, so Our first list we want to know if you think these are good reasons to get married and So, starting with the first reason, do you think it's a good reason to get married when one of them commits a crime, so the other one doesn't have to testify? Yeah. You approve. me Okay. You could be out of jail. Definitely. Wait, hold on. Does it matter if you weren't married at the time of the crime?
00:46:09
Speaker
I think so because if you can't have them testify if they're married, right? I don't know. You cannot compel a spouse to testify against their spouse in a criminal case. But what about past acts prior to me? Yeah. That's the part where I'm like, when are they married? Well, because at some point they had to tell you about that. So talking about it is still part of like marital community. What if they told you before you're married and then they get like, I just, I don't, we'd have to go back to the bar exam. But I think we'd have to come together.
00:46:39
Speaker
oh if you compar the coin together Well, hold on before you're married at the time of the of the app. No. You did it and then you were like, crap, let's get married. ah you I think maybe the more important question is they can't be compelled to testify, yeah but once they want to. Yeah, because you cannot be compelled, but you can waive that in the criminal court.
00:47:10
Speaker
Okay, great question. What's next? I know. Okay. Is this a good reason to get married? Medical benefits? Yes. Do you have any idea how much medical things cost? Especially if one person has really access to really good like health insurance policy? Yes. But I mean, all of these things, you should have a prenup ahead of time so you don't yeah have some kind of bad financial benefit. But yeah, for real.
00:47:39
Speaker
All right, next. What about FAFSA student aid? That often can be a bad reason to get married. Oh, really? but then you make too much. Right, because if you've got, let's say you've got the legal parent who doesn't make very much, but then they get married to someone who does, I think FAFSA looks at household income, not just the income. So it can actually be a reason not to get married, among many others.
00:48:13
Speaker
I just want to be clear. And then all right what's that good reasons to get married. One gets pregnant and they're Catholic. You don't want to be born out of wedlock. You don't want to be born out of wedlock? and you really need I mean, I was born out of wedlock. Well, that's you. oh what but My parents were married. You know, my parents, so was I. What? Yeah. Born or conceived? Both.
00:48:46
Speaker
They didn't marry until I was like seven.
00:48:50
Speaker
ah so right That's why her name changed. but Yeah, that's why her name changed from wolves to Andrew. Add that to Jamie part two. We need to talk about name changes. My parents got married like six weeks after I was born. like oh And they got a babysitter. I didn't even get to go.
00:49:13
Speaker
it's like on but no I That's not nice. All right. OK. All right. We got to go. We got to go. What's next? okay So now we're on to if these are good reasons to get divorced. So number one, the other one ate your leftovers and you were really excited for them at the end of the day. You had a really bad day. And this was there. This was your one shining light and they ate them. Yeah, they only get divorced over that.
00:49:39
Speaker
Okay, that's special and it's a sandwich with the moist maker. The moist maker. The moist maker. Friends. All right. Cynthia knows, apparently. I knew Jamie would know, but poor Sam doesn't know. We'll have to find a clip for you. Yes, please. I haven't seen friends at the top of it. ah Good reasons to get divorced. That's a reason to get divorced.
00:50:03
Speaker
yeah Good reasons to get divorced. So in a past life, one of them killed the other in cold blood um as they were cowboys dueling at dawn with the sheriff watching, of course, to ensure that it was a fair fight. And it's in like a small, dusty town, and the one who wins feels no remorse for killing the other. Where did you come up with this shit? And they only found they only found this out after they got married?
00:50:26
Speaker
Yeah, like they go to like one of those people that can help unlock your past lives or whatever it is. No, I think's you think because obviously there's something that's drawn you together in every life. So you got to stick with it. So I just got to wait and find out. Yeah. That's right, Sarah. OK, what about if a palm reader says no? No to what? Are they with California psychics?
00:50:55
Speaker
They say no, you shouldn't. Those are some quality psychics. they They say you shouldn't be married anymore. Oh, well, should you get a divorce? I mean, if you're going to the palm reader in the first place, then I imagine that their opinion might be fairly important. So I don't know if it's a good reason, but you probably should do what they say. All right. ah They cheated on the other in a dream.
00:51:22
Speaker
yeah Is it this definitely a reason for a fight? Because that's not cool. But divorce and nah. What if they joined or became president of the PTSA without consulting you? Oh, my gosh. Oh,
00:51:39
Speaker
is well, hypothetical question. I think that. I mean, yeah, you you just say you have to end this obligation. OK.
00:51:54
Speaker
Also hypothetical. Sarah, what you got? Um, so this is completely hypothetical, but what if you, what if you want to get divorced because you've never known what true love looks like and now you're in it and it feels too good to be true. And statistically, nobody gets this lucky. Like she's got to be hiding something, a secret double life, a secret family in Idaho. I don't know. Maybe she's a con artist. Why else would she laugh at my jokes? Some of them are really bad. Why would she remember things? That's got to have a conversation with Emily or a secret that she doesn't know.
00:52:26
Speaker
What if I just like end it right now before things get too serious, even though we're already married and that's pretty serious. Um, that doesn't really stop me from convincing myself that it's a ticking time bomb. So should I get divorced? Well, first you should consult your palm later and then you should hire a private investigator to see if any of your fears are validated. And okay ah so if they're not, then You're supposed to divorce you. Okay, yeah therapy and they divorce by yeah someone needs a therapist should divorce you.
00:53:01
Speaker
ah oh my god they got I suddenly feel very sorry for any therapist Sarah has ever seen. What was that just now? That was completely I i just kind of spitballed like I just started i so I wrote it before the podcast I was like let me just sarah anything anything You need to journal about this later great month for two if they say name oh That's why we only put self-semitage in the title because we wanted your genuine reaction.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:53:33
Speaker
All right but So so we're running short on time. This is the last one. This is the coup d'etat
00:53:39
Speaker
Yes. And this, this is, uh, in the other category. Okay. So say them when we're in a relationship, right? And when it started, I had a pet, I've had this pit say for like, I don't know, like their whole life. Um, and when I got into this relationship, my ex and my pet really bonds in, but now we're broken up. And because I've had the pit since before we met, it's like to mine, right? They can't claim like community property. And I can just, you know, tear the two of them apart forever.
00:54:06
Speaker
Yeah, we should have we should have clarified that when we were talking about com community community property. Anything you have had that was yours before you got married, that's yours and your spouse can't can't have it. So they don't they don't get the pet, they don't get visitation rights. It's it's yours. man No matter how close they are.
00:54:28
Speaker
rion bond If you cut it together before, then it's joint separate property and you have to cut it in half. Oh, but would that okay.
00:54:40
Speaker
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. We talk far too much about how to cut living beings in half. So on that, we're going to end. Jamie, thank you. We're going to we're goingnna have to have you back on very soon, Sarah. That's your job. But and until then, Jamie Dugan, Dugan Family Law, Dugan and Associates, whatever she wants to call herself, ah we'll make sure that you have any contact. And thank you, Jamie, for joining us.
00:55:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening. And just to cover all our bases about what you just heard, I'm sorry and you're welcome. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode and tell your friends about us. We do webinars and live events.
00:55:25
Speaker
The best way to stay up to date is to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube. Links are in the show notes. If there's a topic you'd like us to cover, maybe you have a question you'd like us to answer, or maybe you just wanna say hi, hit the link in the show notes or go to birch-law.com forward slash podcast and fill out the contact form.
00:55:55
Speaker
much better. Yeah I thought that had a lot of energy.