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E40: Family Law 101 Part 2: LGBTQ+ Adoptions, Names, and Rights (with Jaime Duggan)
11 Plays1 month ago
This week we’re joined by family law attorney, Jaime Duggan to dive into some crucial topics for LGBTQ+ families in Texas! From second-parent and step-parent adoptions to navigating name changes and gender marker updates, Jaime breaks down the legal steps to secure parental rights and identity. We’ll also discuss why starting the adoption process early is key and the latest updates to Texas laws that could make the process easier for married couples. We’ll touch on concerns about potential legal threats to LGBTQ+ rights, plus Jaime's advice on finding an attorney who understands your unique needs and aligns with your values.
Stick around for our "Ask the Expert" segment where we debate reasons for divorce—think stealing blankets and binge-watching shows solo.
Join us every Wednesday for new episodes! Subscribe now to get notified.
Where you can find Jaime Duggan:
- IG @DugganFamilyLaw
- FB @DugganFamilyLaw
- info@dugganfamilylaw.com
- (214) 494-1647
Where you can find Burch Law:
- IG @BurchLawTX
- FB @BurchLaw
- YT @LorieBurchLaw
- hello@burch-law.com
- (972) 385-0558
Visit burch-law.com/podcast to reach out!
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Focus on Wills
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of One of Us Knows What They're Talking About. Another one is you. I'm Lori Burch, your host. Join us as we discuss and unpack wills, trust, estate planning, and probate law in a way that's actually informative, interesting, and well, hopefully
Importance of Having a Will in Texas
00:00:22
Speaker
entertaining. Because if you don't have a will, the state of Texas has one for you. Let's dive in.
00:00:40
Speaker
How many subscribers or followers or whatever you call it? Do we have Sarah? Yeah. Lord likes to call them fans. Um, it depends on the platform. I don't have a way to see everybody all at once. Um, we still have that one in South America. Oh, we have more across the world. I know on Spotify, we have like 25 followers, but, uh, like listeners each episode, I. It's around 30.
00:01:11
Speaker
Hold on. What countries have we expanded to? Oh, a great question. I posted in Slack, by the way. Yeah, I set up. Can you see who the listeners are? No. Let me see.
00:01:28
Speaker
um
00:01:31
Speaker
So we've expanded to Australia. India. ah um
00:01:46
Speaker
Hmm. Hold on. There used to be an easier way to see this.
00:01:56
Speaker
ah Russia. Oh, Pakistan, Spain, Germany, the UK. What's that little guy? Oh, Russia again.
Future Guest: Jamie Dugan, Family Law Attorney
00:02:09
Speaker
ah Brazil, Canada.
00:02:13
Speaker
And what's Oh Russia again um Yeah, ah shout out to our Russian fans So let's make this magic happen Even though for all I know we're gonna include everything that's happened So we're gonna do a part two with the esteemed Jamie Dugan family law attorney in Texas extraordinaire because there was just so much material to cover last time and we wanna do back.
Viral TikTok: Kirkland Sweatpants
00:02:59
Speaker
So we're gonna talk more about family law issues today and an unexpected ah event from our last time together occurred and that is apparently
00:03:14
Speaker
the whole Kirkland sweatpants conversation was a really big hit.
Humorous Take on Costco Shopping Habits
00:03:21
Speaker
Of course it was. And there is, I mean, we we went viral on TikTok. The once in future TikTok.
00:03:32
Speaker
So that's interesting. um Not really sure what to make of that, since it's none of the substantive legal things that we're talking about, but Kirkland sweatpants. So maybe we should talk a little bit more about your sweatpants. But first, ah what are you what pants are you wearing, if any, right now? oh Well, they're more like joggers. And not Kirkland brand, but they were purchased at Costco.
00:04:06
Speaker
do you Do you do all your clothes shopping at Costco? There's no judgment. I'm just curious.
Costco Shopping Experiences and Free Samples
00:04:12
Speaker
Well, I mean for like lounging sweats type clothes that you're just going to wear around the house. Yes. They're really good price and they're very comfortable. Yeah. And every time I go to Costco, I definitely look at the clothing section. What other articles of clothing do you have from Costco?
00:04:36
Speaker
socks, sweatshirts.
00:04:43
Speaker
And toilet paper. Yeah, I usually wear that, but sometimes it's like your show. What about when you have to go as a mummy for Halloween? Yeah, then definitely. Listen, I will um also admit this. Different Costco's carry different things.
00:05:06
Speaker
Yes. As far as clothing. And and I mean, everything. But yeah, I mean, I know like they're they have regional stuff. Right. Right. Like foods. Yes.
Costco Food Affinity
00:05:20
Speaker
And even like within the Metroplex, sometimes a different thing. Different ones have different. Yeah. So do you shop around? Yeah, it's not it's not uncommon.
00:05:35
Speaker
But I've got like a day, a shopping day. Like I'm one, my, my, um, most amount is three Costco's one day. Oh, dang. That would take her. Blain. Oh, first go. Do you, um,
00:05:57
Speaker
Do you then have your meal at the free samples at the Costco? is that When you say three, do you go what for one in the morning, one in the afternoon, one in the evening so you get a three course meal or a three meals a day? No, I always try to go like first thing in the morning when they first open. because And those are the better free samples? I don't know. I don't partake in the free samples. Really? Yeah,
Second Parent Adoption and Legal Nuances
00:06:24
Speaker
no. Why not? That's the best part.
00:06:27
Speaker
Is it? I guess other than the clothing. If if no one's in line and then maybe I will get it. But I am not I personally am not going to wait in line to get a free sample of something that might be pretty gross. I always feel like I have to pretend that I am interested in possibly buying the product.
00:06:48
Speaker
And I mean, but I don't know why we play this game, the charade, because they know, and they don't care. they theyre They're getting their paycheck no matter what. But you'd be like, oh, this is on aisle four. Okay, yeah, this is great.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Oh, your family makes this. Oh, that's wonderful. but Good for your family. I don't care. I don't want to do that. I will just take the sample and be like, Oh yeah, thank you. Walk away. Yeah. I play, I play the game that only one of us is playing the other ones. Yeah. They're just like, whatever. I don't know. They do that all day. It's just how I feel about it. yeah Yeah. Also, I don't know why I'm sharing this voluntarily, but, um, when I was in undergrad, you know, lean in call it student.
00:07:43
Speaker
And there was a Costco like a mile from campus and I would regularly go get a pizza. They had like a window. You didn't have to go inside.
00:07:56
Speaker
go to the window and it's like, yeah, I don't know, $3 or something. And it's delicious. The pizza at Costco is really good. Legit. Jamie, let me let you in on a little secret. There have, Sam and I have been known to go to the Costco down the street for lunch. We haven't done it in a while. We haven't done it in a while, but it's right there. And we get to people watch. if We get to people watch. We get some very affordable pizza or hot dog.
00:08:25
Speaker
Beverage? Yeah, it's amazing. No shame in my game. Why wouldn't you do that? Yeah. Or whenever you see people and you're like, you just have five containers of grapes in your cart, and that's it. What are you doing with those? It's our, should you have just gone to a Walmart? Yeah,
Challenges for LGBTQ Parents in Texas
00:08:44
Speaker
we like to do, OK, you could have gone to a Walmart. OK, you could have gone to Target. Because also, when's the last time you went into Costco to shop and only got what you were looking for?
00:08:55
Speaker
right? Yeah, because there's always something I didn't know I needed.
00:09:07
Speaker
um Yeah. You know, I feel like Costco should be a sponsor at this point. Sarah, look into that. Yeah, for sure. So as far as family law stuff, um we hit a lot of topics we can hit back at some of those topics. But I think the big ones that we left unexplored for the most part is one is second parent adoptions. So Jamie, regale us with what that is, how it originated,
00:09:36
Speaker
Who should do it and when should they do it? Because could it all go away? That's a lot of questions, and I would be happy to answer them all for you. Well, let's start with first, a second parent adoption is not. A actual legal term, so you're not going to find in the, you know, Texas family code, something that says second parent adoption, so.
00:10:04
Speaker
I know sometimes that is confusing for folks because I'll have, you know, talk to people who say that they talk to another attorney and they don't know what a second parent adoption is. That's not a thing. We don't call it that. So that is actually true. Second parent adoption is something, a term that we use in the community um to define a certain type of case. And generally the case is for parents who um have a child using some type of assisted reproduction and with their partner, spouse, who is the same sex. So when that happens, regardless of whether or not the couple, the two parents are married, um the child needs to be adopted by one of the parties.
00:11:00
Speaker
This happens because um each state defines how you become a legal parent in their state, and that's in in the state's family code. So in Texas, um i one issue that we have in the LGBTQ community is that our family code speaks in gendered terms. So it says ah mother, father, instead of parent or husband, wife, instead of spouse. So because of that, we get these separation in how you become a parent. So in in the Texas Family Code says that you become a legal mother if you give birth, adopt, or have a judge declare that you are a mother. So that and that would um necessitate an ad court case.
00:11:55
Speaker
So because those are the only ways, it doesn't say you become a legal mother if you're biologically related to the child. Doesn't say you become a legal mother if you are married and your wife gives birth. That's it, give birth, a adopt. And so for all same sex couples who have children using assisted reproduction, they have to go through this process. Otherwise, they're not
00:12:24
Speaker
technically just on its own, um you know, when your child is born, you don't automatically become a legal parent. Doesn't matter if you're on the birth certificate, that doesn't give you legal rights. It doesn't say married or it doesn't say give birth, adopt or be on the birth certificate. um So that doesn't make a difference. And just being married in and of itself also doesn't make a difference. You actually have to go through the steps to to become a legal parent. So question here.
00:12:52
Speaker
um lots of questions. But when you say birth certificate, that's probably one of the biggest misperceptions that are out there. And the reason that a same sex spouse, well, in this case, it would be a woman giving birth until we have other advancements. But the spouse, there's a presumption in Texas where they're the other parent. So just by default and ceremonially they are added, the the person they're married to is added to the birth certificate. And there's some very interesting cases where let's say it's a ah female and male couple and the man is deployed and overseas for two years and the wife's lonely.
00:13:40
Speaker
and ends up getting pregnant and giving birth. And then the husband comes home realizing he's got legal obligations to a child that he is not genetically, biologically or maybe even emotionally connected to. So like that kind of scenario scenario plays out. So um but and then one question. Real quick, that happens because the family code says you become a legal father
Lori's Personal Experience with Second Parent Adoption
00:14:12
Speaker
if you are married and your wife gives birth.
00:14:15
Speaker
so regardless So in that scenario, regardless of whether or not you are the actual biological father, that that that's why you're automatically. um Right. I mean, it's it's pretty nuanced. And I think not in current legal times, but I think one of the ways to possibly ah make headway on this would be to use a sex discrimination argument. Now, any current courts right now would not try that in.
00:14:41
Speaker
But that's really what ah in Texas, the scenario that that Jamie's describing really is based on that. um But what about Jamie? Because I actually think this is somewhat of the origin where people were doing the air quote second parent adoption or this is where I'm heading a step parent adoption.
00:15:04
Speaker
So what about, so take whether it's a same sex couple or not out of the equation, when can a step parent ah adopt a child of their, let's say a ah legal or biological child of their partner or spouse? Like, I don't know if it makes a difference. Like, do they have to be married to do that? Yes, they have to be married to be a step. So um the process is actually
00:15:33
Speaker
the same legal process as we're doing for a second parent adoption, um except that you don't you ah in a second parent adoption, you don't necessarily have to be married. um So in order for someone to to become ah to adopt as a step parent, the other parent's parental rights need to be terminated first.
00:15:59
Speaker
So a lot of times that happens in one case together. We terminate the ah parental rights of one person and then the step parent steps in and adopts. But that also can happen separately. So certainly possible that, um you know, folks have kids and maybe it's the the father's rights who are terminated at one point, then the mother meets somebody else, they get married.
00:16:25
Speaker
that person wants to adopt, the termination's already done, and they can adopt. So um the legal, I mean, the real legal requirement is for a step parent adoption is that you are married to the parent, the other parent's parental rights have been terminated. So Jamie, I have a question. What, I guess, ah hypothetically, if me and my husband used a surrogate. It's our genetic material, our child, but we used a surrogate. How would we go about getting rights to the child? Because I wouldn't have carried the child. Somebody else would have. Yeah. Interesting, because I've kind of thought of trying this out for same-sex couples. But um in that scenario, what you want
00:17:15
Speaker
what you would do is file a suit as an intended parent. So you would have a specific gestational agreement with the surrogate who, of course, the surrogate wouldn't have any biological relation to the child. um You would then have that gestational agreement validated by a court before the baby arrives.
00:17:40
Speaker
um and have a court order that says you are the intended parents. So then you have a court order that you go to the hospital with and from the moment the child is born, you are the ah parents, um you know, any sort of rights that would be afforded to any parent that are are afforded to you at the time the child is born, so. And we wouldn't have to go through an adoption process.
00:18:05
Speaker
that you're aware of. right not it is It is a court proceeding. There is still a court court proceeding of the validation of that agreement. But it's not an adoption.
00:18:16
Speaker
it would yeah Technically, the law sees it as though you are the parents. You're not yeah adopting the child. You are the intended parents from the beginning. And just to be clear, since we established earlier whether Sarah whether sarah includes that in the actual podcast or not, our podcast is not just limited to Texas. It's not just limited to these United States. We are an international sensation, phenomenon, and if you will. And one thing that I want to emphasize here is that more than even the estate planning and wills and trust, even though that is very state specific, but way more than that, this is very, very, very different state to state.
00:19:08
Speaker
You know, I can say in general, a will and descendancy is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And even though it's, I'm only licensed in Texas, I'm not speaking for other states with the exception of Louisiana based off of French Napoleonic code, I can say that's probably how every other state's gonna see it. This is all over the map, like night and day different.
Significance of Legal Parenthood and Guardianship
00:19:29
Speaker
So um need to make sure that that's really,
00:19:34
Speaker
really impressed upon people because it is such a big deal. But that's actually one of my questions that I'm going to get to in a second, Jamie. But I want to go ahead and use myself as an example because Jamie handled our second parent adoption. And so just to kind of give a real illustration or an example of what Jamie's talking about is my wife, Kimberly, and I did what's called reciprocal IVF.
00:19:57
Speaker
So I had my eggs frozen and then we had them inseminated with a donor sperm. And then instead of me doing the IVF process where they are then transferred to me and I give birth, hence legal mother, Kimberly did.
00:20:16
Speaker
and kind of to put a bow on some of the things we're talking about. One, because we went through a fertility clinic for the egg transfer, you know there's no paperwork that said I was an egg donor or anything like that because we went through a fertility clinic and all of that. Kimberly did not sign any sort of ah surrogacy paperwork or anything like that to give away her rights. But then because we went through a,
00:20:40
Speaker
um ah ah so ah Clinic a donor clinic. I don't know why i'm blind now. I don't yeah cryo bank. Thank you. Then all the paperwork and legal Relationships are taken care of through that process So for the people and I can't remember to what degree this came up the first time when we talked to jamie but you know for all the people that want to go the air quote cheap route of um, you know having their best friend do their thing and then you get the turkey baster and blah blah blah like that there's a lot of
00:21:13
Speaker
Well, Sarah, what if your best friend is looking really cool? I can tell you that that's what the lesbians are looking for, Jamie. Mm hmm. Right. Tell Sarah that's what they want. They want all good looking daughter. Yeah. Read more giants.
00:21:33
Speaker
Well, I actually didn't have any selection in in the donor, but that's a story for another day. um But he is tall. And so that did work out in our field. But, but has crippling eczema. So thanks a lot, sir.
00:21:51
Speaker
especially with my two, like they needed any more help having dry skin conditions. Thanks for introducing that into our little gene pool. Anyway, perfect right right, right, right. He's, he's a genius, like it's in a book. So there is that. So think of the brain power in those two.
00:22:11
Speaker
um I mean the other ones as well. Oh boy edit this out Sarah Anyway, don't want to get in trouble with with them But I'm talking about the the two specific ones because they were my biological They are my biological children and if you have met any of them particularly Adley that is painfully possibly obvious Yeah And the little one looks like your mom which is like she looks just like my mom. Yeah those kids are strong Yeah, give really will take pictures of her and text him to me and say Jana jr but
00:22:42
Speaker
on fun it's really really well actually so Anyway, so we had to go through that process with Jamie just to be clear. so But I was on the birth certificate, but we did that so I could be a legal parent. But the last thing I want to say before I i really want Jamie to chime in on some of this is Jamie plays with the Family Code. We play with the Estates Code. In the Estates Code, they are considered my descendants, my heirs, my issue, because that's based on biology, by biological descent. So it's just fascinating and so messy yeah that it works that way, which is one of the reasons why we wanted to do what we did. But I think the bigger question is, Jamie, because
00:23:29
Speaker
You and I have so much programming in our head that we know, like we have that understanding, but sometimes I think we presume people have an understanding.
Legal Protections for LGBTQ Parents
00:23:38
Speaker
So what does it even matter to be a legal parent? Like in my situation where I just explained it, I, for estate purposes, they're mine, but I also have wills, trusts, guardianships. I have all that set up. What would it matter to a couple like Kimberly and I for me i'm on their birth certificate right because we were married well we we still are um i mean and unless you know the powers we're only two days in that'll be the executive order tomorrow um yeah but you know so i'm on there what
00:24:16
Speaker
Who cares, Jamie? Like why why do I need that distinction from the state of Texas to say I'm their legal parent? yeah I'm their biological parent. I have all my estate planning paperwork. um I'm on their birth certificate. What what difference does it make? Yeah, I think probably one of one of the biggest differences, this is the one that kind of keeps me up at night.
00:24:41
Speaker
that the law treats you differently if you are a parent and if you are not a parent. So when you designate a guardian for your kids, if something were to happen to you, most often, you know the judge grants that guardianship, right? But you all you have to go in front of a judge that that will say, yes, you are the guardians, this is who they designated great.
00:25:06
Speaker
you know Most often, obviously, that that's going to happen. But it doesn't have to happen like that. And so the piece of it that that I think is particularly important for the LGBTQ community in Texas right now um is that you're afforded different opportunities if you are a legal parent. If you are a legal parent, you're not going in front of a judge to be designated a guardian. You are the parent, period.
00:25:33
Speaker
um, there are different things, um, standards that CPS would have to prove in order to remove your kids from your home if you are a parent and a non parent. So that, that level is extremely important. And I think that, you know, that I get a lot of of questions from people just like that. Why do we have to do this? And um you know the piece that you didn't put in there is that you know Kim really would never take the kids away from me. That would never happen to us.
00:26:07
Speaker
And yes, no, she said she would if I ever cheated on her. Oh, yes. See, I was. yeah witness She did say that. if You know me. She said she she like was very she looked very dead. Yes. Wait, wait, wait. Well, I'm going to like I'm going to let Cynthia because we were talking over each other. She you were there. She looked me dead in the face and she said what? She said, if you cheat on me, I will take your baby.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yep. It was, whenever she said it, it was, I remember turning towards her and being like, Oh, okay. She's serious. Yeah. It was scary. And then I said, well, define cheating. I'm kidding. I did not say that.
00:26:51
Speaker
ah It's a fair question from a legal standpoint. Not, not for us. Yeah. Um, oh yeah. So sorry, Jamie. Um, and that's my, my, you know, at at least the education piece of it that I want to do for people is that we're not, we're not only doing this because Kimberly would never do that because your, your wife would never take the kids away from you. It's because being designated as a legal parent gives you protections that you otherwise wouldn't have. And you know, yeah especially when CPS has been directed to, um,
00:27:27
Speaker
you know, do do things that are scary for our community, that that is really important. Yeah, I think that is really important. I think, you know, using a different example than Kimberly and Ikes were so stuck with each other. Like, there's no getting out. There's just none. But Jamie, you've seen this. you've You see this regularly. People who swear up and down, I would never do that.
00:27:51
Speaker
When the time comes and we actually have attorneys in our community here in Dallas that will encourage their clients to play the gay card against each other when it comes to this. It does happen now.
00:28:07
Speaker
A happy side of that is we also have, because we share some couples in common for clients, but I also know, Jamie, you see the flip side of it where people are splitting up, but the the legal mother still wants to allow the other one to adopt, and that's, you know what, props to you.
00:28:24
Speaker
like really, really awesome that you do that because you are honoring that relationship and you're honoring who and where we want to be as a community. But there's plenty who will play each other against each other. But I also think, and it's kind of an example with the guardianship,
00:28:42
Speaker
is that it can also cut through a lot of red tape, even if it will in there end up there eventually. If you're just able to say, yes, I'm a legal parent. like I'm thinking about, we've applied for passports, we're applying to schools right now, um going to a new doctor. like i don't There's no asterisk that I have to add.
00:29:01
Speaker
It's just, I'm the parent, you're the parent. This is parent one, this is parent two. This is mom one, this is mom two. This is mama, this is mama. All of that. so It can just help, but I think I want to revisit the guardianship piece here because what Jamie is saying is that, well, first of all, there is a presumption that the other legal parent would be the guardian. There's no legal court process that has to go through for the other legal parent to be a guardian if the other parent dies.
00:29:29
Speaker
But if I had not done the second pair in adoption, i I would have had to go through a court process if Kimberly died. like And yes, they're probably not a chance in heck that the court would not have granted me that. But who the hell wants to risk that? And in a different type of family situation, if Kimberly had a different kind of family, which they exist, they're out there, who wanted to challenge that, they would they would be pretty much on equal footing with me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Adoption Process Overview in Texas
00:29:59
Speaker
And I wanted to mention that too, because that you know when we started talking about this, there is that that third way of becoming a legal mother, and that's having a court say that you are a mother. And so there are cases, there are, um you know, it does happen, right? The the law also says that um the ways that you can become a father are supposed to be applied if to become a mother also.
00:30:27
Speaker
And so there's there's a a longer list to become a father, things like biological relation, um you know if you're married, um even if you live in the same house with the child for the first two years and say they're your child, boof, they're your child. um But in order to become a legal mother that way, you have to get a court order that says that is a thing.
00:30:51
Speaker
And so what Laurie's talking about is you're trying to get a court order saying that you're a legal parent when you're in the middle of ah emotional divorce, or you have to get a court order saying that you're a legal parent after your spouse has died. Like nobody wants to be in that situation. And we do see, you know, we handle divorce in our practice also. And so we see what happens in those situations where emotions are really high and, um,
00:31:20
Speaker
You just the like Laurie saying we we don't represent folks who biological parents who are trying to keep the child from the other um parent, but that does happen. And so now you're spending tens of thousands of dollars fighting it out in court.
00:31:37
Speaker
with for the first piece, that is, we have to prove that you're a legal mother and we have to get the court to say you are a legal mother before we start the regular part of the divorce, which is fighting over, you know, when you have time with them and who's making what rights and you know decisions and those kinds of things. So it the that can't happen in the law. And that is the the process that we take if if we are, you know, our clients end up in that situation. But nobody wants to do that.
00:32:06
Speaker
Right. And I think the the last thing I want to add on this particular point is remember what we were talking about just not too long ago about the um other state laws. So if you move to another state or even if you're traveling and there's an accident in another state where they don't have second parent adoption, they don't recognize this, you know, if you're in Mississippi, which I mean, I don't know why you'd be Mississippi, unless you're visiting Tupelo, the birthplace of the king of rock and roll.
00:32:35
Speaker
But then get the hell out, everybody. Or even Arkansas, which you have to go through Arkansas if you're going to drive to Memphis, the home of the king of rock and roll. All roads lead to Elvis. All roads, yeah. Are you trying to say you fly? Yeah, no, don't fly. It's actually a beautiful country.
00:33:00
Speaker
beautiful country. Um, but at any rate, like that's, that's another reason is if you are, if you move to a different state or I really even think just, just traveling to other States, did we bring up in the last, in the last time we had you on adoption by a stop. Does anybody remember if we talked about that? I think we did. It was very troubling that nobody seems to remember.
00:33:27
Speaker
It was last year. Talk about we've slept a lot since we remember to sweatpants though, but we don't remember talking about adoption by a stumble. Okay. had a gruial episode no I'm going to presume that we did. And if not, so Sarah, your job is to go back and see if we did. And if we did not, then we'll have Jamie on again, just to talk about adoption by estoppel, because you can accidentally adopt children, apparently, but not really.
Emotional Complexities of Court Processes
00:33:55
Speaker
Yes. prey But according to an ad litem, you can an ad litem attorney for
00:34:01
Speaker
Uh determination worship case. Okay, so I think before we completely move on from adoption um What You might want to just ah don't get into the nuts and bolts But I think going through like the over overall process is is interesting and I actually I think a key thing is is when can you start it? Oh good. Oh, yeah You can start it as soon as you become pregnant um and for the You know, ah a lot of our clients, that's what they do. I would say, you know, probably maybe end of the second trimester, beginning of third trimester is most commonly when people start, but you can start at any time you become pregnant. We can't finalize the case until your baby's born, but we can start. So then we have everything ready to go and ready to submit to the court as soon as your baby's born. And there's less, less in between time that you are, you're not a legal parent.
00:35:01
Speaker
Um, in general, you know, we, we want to get the agreement of both parties. Sorry. That's the easiest, best way to to go about it. You're having a baby together. Hopefully that would be the time that you agree. Um, most, well, the, the family code says that all adoption cases have to go through a, have to have an, we call it an adoption evaluation done. Um,
00:35:28
Speaker
Other folks call it a home study, so there's a a requirement of what kinds of things the the evaluator has to um get from you documents, information, family history, relationship history, a lot of fairly invasive kinds of things. You have to get a letter from your doctor. It's very invasive. I and some of the questions that are asked that are required about like your religious practices and how you're going to raise your child and I think even like
00:35:59
Speaker
discipline, like how you handle discipline, and if you agree upon that. And so for me, I was, I get the whole, you're not by biologically connected to the child. So yes, but for me, it was just kind of kind of extra offensive, at least from my point of view, because I am their biological child. So I think Jamie didn't I like in every answer, but because I'm their biological child or as their biological or as their biological parent, yeah um I was like, of course, I care about their well-being. That's the thing about it. so it's ah it's ah Some of the questions are offensive, but you just got to go through those. We have to have an evaluator appointed. They do the evaluation.
00:36:46
Speaker
um through the evaluation, you also, well, actually it's kind of separate. right So one one good news, one piece of this that Lori and Kimberly didn't have when we did their second parent adoption. um There was an update to the law in Texas in january last January. So it's been about a year now. And it says that if you are married, then you can ask the court to waive the requirement of that adoption evaluation. So
00:37:16
Speaker
um our law firm, you know, which is is a good reason to go with a law firm that has, you know, does this often so they kind of know how to navigate the gas system. um But we we do what we can to ensure that we're in front of judges that will allow us to waive that, saves us time and money and stress and that that ridiculous invasive part of it. um So that's a possibility.
00:37:42
Speaker
It also requires the adoptive parent to go through a background check. So we have to get criminal history information from DPS and then also um a history of of any interaction with CPS. So those things have to happen. That that that still has to happen regardless.
00:38:02
Speaker
um So a lot of a lot of our clients can start the process as soon as they you know' become pregnant and we do that piece of it so we have that all ready to go and then we can we can get the final order signed as soon as the child comes. so Yeah, and I know, you know, so family courts, they deal with so much of families being ripped apart, petty bickering, ah using kids as pawns. So I know that family law judges just love
Concerns Over Political Changes on Adoption Rights
00:38:29
Speaker
adoptions. They think it's so sweet and special. And
00:38:34
Speaker
i you know I don't have much of a poker face. So when when Jamie and I went in to just get the final stamp of approval, and you know this judge is just acting like, oh, what a momentous occasion for you. And I'm just like, these are my fucking kids. Why do I have to do this? Congratulations for what?
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah, but it's fine. I get I get it. It just I was very it was hard to take that component out of it, the idea that, you know, these two children that are already mine. Yeah.
00:39:10
Speaker
um You know, but anyway, yeah, so finally on the a lot of our clients feel the same way I would say probably the majority of our clients feel the same way and it's you know It's not it's a necessary thing that has to happen It's not necessarily as a celebration like it would be in a traditional type adoption Yeah, yeah, but so, you know, I put a damper on that judges day. Sorry um What would you say but just in current times and in light of recent political events What would you say to the LGBTQ community, particularly because because it's not really defined on statute in statute, this could go away, right? Yeah, easily absolutely. Absolutely. um In fact, you know, the the Republican Party is in power and in
00:40:01
Speaker
Texas. um And they they party their their latest party platform you know included um that they want to ah make it so that same-sex folks cannot adopt.
00:40:15
Speaker
so I mean, I don't know the likelihood of that and you know going to happen, when that's you know going to be in front of them, if they want to do that, if they yeah are going to do that, but it is possible. And I think that's that's the part of it that folks really need to understand that we can do this right now. We can file a second parent adoption right now and not have to jump through the the hoops of all the other things. but Um, the family code can be changed, right? All of us can be changed. So, I mean, wouldn't even have to be changed, Jamie. Couldn't, couldn't judges just decide they're not going to grant him anymore? I mean, there's nothing in the family code that says you have necessarily the, yeah, are completely within the judge's discretion. I mean, a lot of things are, it's in, you know, whatever is in the, the child's best interest. Um, and to that point, I mean,
00:41:09
Speaker
depending on the judge, we do have, you know, we're starting to see a pretty huge difference in opinion, um even in the waving the home study, we've got judges who say, you know, basically, no, I'm not going to do it, you have to go through the whole home study thing. So in my 15 years of second parent adoptions, I have never personally had a judge say no to the adoption.
Legal Name Changes and Identity Issues
00:41:32
Speaker
um But it's certainly becoming, you know, possibility that there's just hoops that we have to jump through that may be different in different judges' courtrooms. Okay. See, I already feel like we need to have Jamie back again, but let's see yeah how quickly we can cover um so kind of a ah switch, but it it all interrelates and that is name changes. And we we dabble in the stuff. We won't do name changes for minors. We don't want to do that. And I mean like kids under 18, not people who work in Pennsylvania.
00:42:06
Speaker
Um, we all thought you meant coal miners. Absolutely. That's where I first went to. Yeah. Yeah. The children yearn for the month.
00:42:17
Speaker
Do I only mine in Pennsylvania? know i think i mean A lot of it goes down in Pennsylvania. all right oh I love by the expression on our faces. um You can tell which one of us are just like over Lori shit, but which one of us are like, I'm gonna hear her. I just didn't know. real learning time Good job. Good job. ah So we, first of all,
00:42:48
Speaker
Have you experienced to the degree we have how there are so many people that don't actually know what their legal names are already? Do you have that? Is that just us?
00:43:00
Speaker
and mean and to them no that it happens that a lot It happens all the time or they didn't know that their first and middle name were switched.
00:43:13
Speaker
Like they've gone through life and they don't know. And then they ask, okay, what is your legal name? Is that what appears on your birth certificate or on your driver's license or something like that? And they're like, huh, they don't match. I don't know how this happened. And we're like, okay.
00:43:29
Speaker
I remember we had one estate planning client. I think she had like six or seven AKA's like in her documents. Like it was insane. Yeah. Wow. Wow. In my head, I'm trying to think like, why doesn't that happen to us? Cause you know, folks who come in for a name change often know what their name is because they want to change. But even if you're like getting married.
00:43:53
Speaker
Don't you do you when you get a marriage so license, do you have to show your birth certificate? Yes, I think you're right. So wouldn't you know then? Maybe that's when they're finding out. I yeah. Yeah. It look it makes no sense to me. But it it's a fairly, fairly regular occurrence. And it's just it's shocking. I mean, several times a year, I would say we get cases like this. Yes.
00:44:24
Speaker
And the really fun ones is after we've gone through the whole process of doing their whole estate planning documents and they've signed it after they've signed it. That's when we really there was one. This isn't this isn't the name. So I'm going to protect. Well, if we don't say last names, it really doesn't matter. But um I'm still going to protect the name. But let's just say, for example, it was and I already have a thing against names that can be names, so um Jennifer. And so she comes to us and says her name is Jenny.
00:44:55
Speaker
And so normally we're like, okay, Jenny, is, so is that your legal name or is that just what you go by? No, it's my legal name. We ask a couple more times because I mean, we realize it's Texas and people have legal legal names named ah Bobby. So we ah male and female, so we get it, but it just, it seemed off to us, but we asked so many times, comes in, signs their paperwork, not even a week later. Hey, you know what? My name, my legal name is actually Jennifer.
00:45:27
Speaker
other than changing the name, that is absolutely what happened. Maybe you should start with that on the questionnaire. Do you know your legal name? What is it? Well, we do have you're even making week of what you go by because let me use Jennifer again. We had somebody come in and they're like, hi, my name is Jen, Jennifer, Jennifer. And then later we find out that their legal name is actually just Jen.
00:45:54
Speaker
They purposely gave themselves a longer name. Interesting. Maybe they thought it was more professional. like but Can you get um on your driver's license? Does that have your legal name on it?
00:46:10
Speaker
Does it hatch on? I believe so. Normally where, I mean, a more common one that is a little bit more understandable is middle names and whether you're using middle names or middle initials. And then for women who decide to change their lasting when they get married, and then do they slide their maiden name to their middle name? So take someone like that. And this is a little bit, so for people listening, we're not disparaging this scenario because this is more understandable. We're talking about people who flat out don't know what their names are.
00:46:40
Speaker
Um, but in this situation where suddenly now you have, well, here's my name when I wasn't married and now here's, this is, you know, this property or this account, or I started working for this job and this one, I don't know why they did this. I didn't pay attention, but they used my maiden name as my middle name, but I actually use my original middle name. as And so you end up.
00:47:07
Speaker
in Yeah in this labyrinth of names, which is one reason why one of my five rules is don't change your name Your last name your surname or your name name. Oh, no. Should we go there?
00:47:19
Speaker
i mean What is your surname? What is your surname? And wait, so JB have to understand the context of this. I don't know why we get ourselves in these conversations. It's just who we are as a people. You get us in these conversations. but and You do. Okay. So that's me. So surname, you know, S-U-R name, surname. And I don't know why I asked somebody like, do you know what that is? And I think everybody said they did, even Sarah. yeah But I was just wondering if people thought it was like sir name like s-i-r Yeah, and it like and so then i'm like sarah. What would your surname be? And then we started asking like, you know grant Marcel. What would your ma'am's name be? And and so then so what sarah what did what did I decide was your surname? I think it's No, no, no, no No
00:48:12
Speaker
It was like Diesel or something like that. Diesel. It was Diesel. Which actually isn't a name at all. I don't know what mine was. What do you call it if it's um gender neutral? Name. Yeah, just name. They name. They name. They name. I like it. They name. See, Jamie, I guess you could go either way with what you've already got going on. Yeah. Hi, Mae. What did I say my surname was?
00:48:42
Speaker
My sir name. Were you Axel? I think I was Axel. Yeah, no, I think. Cult. Cult. Yeah. Somebody was Axel. I don't remember who. I think it was me. I had a weird one. Axel. Okay, because Diesel and Colt are just. Are not weird at all. Marcella. Marcella said. You didn't like it. Marcella didn't skip a beat at all. Marcella just said Marcella.
00:49:11
Speaker
I'm like, all right. But I'm like, this is your opportunity. Like reinvent yourself. Don't be lazy. But so Jamie, tell us a little bit like, are you dealing a lot with name changes and. Yes, so I actually. um ah Again, with the education piece, right? A lot of ah we since we talk about this and do this and happens a lot in our practices.
00:49:40
Speaker
We often forget that people don't know what they don't know. So um right now in Texas, yes, you can have your name changed, of course. um You can also get an order having your gender marker corrected. We handle those types of cases and that is possible today. For now. What, go ahead.
00:50:06
Speaker
I just said for now. Oh, always for now. um Also, at this moment, you know, President Trump said we're going to only have two genders, um but he controls federal law. So the states each decide again in their their code um this issue. So as of right now, doesn't matter what Trump said, we can still do this.
00:50:34
Speaker
Um, what we cannot do. So if you, if you change, let's do this, if you change your name, you change your name, you get a court order. You can take that quarter to, um, DPS and have your driver's license updated. If, I mean, really in any state, wherever you, you were born, you can take that order and, um, have your birth certificate amended. Your name will be changed on those documents. Um, in Texas right now, what we can't do.
00:51:04
Speaker
is if you have an order correcting your gender marker, you can't use that order to go and update your driver's license, or if you were born in Texas, um your birth certificate. You can for your name, not for the gender marker. I think that's at least an issue that has come up for us a couple of times recently. Okay. um So,
00:51:33
Speaker
Jamie, i don't I don't want you to be to be concerned because Sarah and Sam do have some more. Part two, ask the expert segment questions for you. Last one though, because we if it you've kind of interwoven this into your conversations, but really just as a basic high level overview. What should people look for in an attorney or a firm when they are looking to get Divorced adoptions name changes all the aforementioned things that you did. Yeah, I think first you want an attorney who? specifically handles the type of law that you're needing so um You wouldn't go to birch law for a but DUI you um
00:52:25
Speaker
find an attorney who focuses only on that area of law. there's It's just so broad in the things that within each area of law, what what you know and need to know, um it's really, really difficult for an attorney to know all different types of law. So you really want to find someone specific. um They'll know the court system better. They'll know you know your judges better. So first, you you need an attorney who does only that.
00:52:51
Speaker
um I would say if you are a member of the LGBTQ community and this is something that's important to you, you want to have an attorney who has handled cases before or folks in the LGBTQ community. I think, you know, even though things like divorce, you know, or but this is same for um all people, there's nuance things that are really, really important. And if you don't have an attorney who understands that or has done that or, you know,
00:53:20
Speaker
A part of that is up on the law relating to LGBTQ issues. um You're going to really be in in a poor spot. And then I think lastly, you want an attorney who is willing to handle your case the way you want your case handled, not trying to, you know, something we talked about earlier.
00:53:40
Speaker
um Because you can raise the issue that the other parent's not a legal parent. You don't want an attorney who's going to you know talk you into that if that's not something that you want to do. um There's no need for divorce and custody to be contentious um if that's not where you want to start out. So really find an attorney who's going to move forward on your case with your agenda and not theirs.
00:54:07
Speaker
so i So I have a question, JB, as someone who gets like sucked into these, you know, groups where they ask for referrals and everything. This is not, nobody asks for a bulldog estate planning attorney. So I don't even know what that means. Like what that would look like. Maybe something for us to table and discuss another time.
Choosing the Right Attorney for Family Law
00:54:31
Speaker
But people want bulldog divorce attorneys. What does that even mean? What does that even mean? And why do you want that? I think so. I think that people want
00:54:48
Speaker
I guess someone who's going to be in court and sort of like yelling or intimidate intimidation, I guess, of the other side. um I guess that's what they're looking for. I want to know why you want that because I think what is more important to wear is more important to our firm and should be more important to people is the strategy behind it. So if you have an attorney who goes into court and is just like defiant on everything, arguing with the judge on everything, you know, being a jerk to the other attorney and and the other party, depending on what judge you have, that is going to work completely in the opposite of what you're actually trying to have happen.
00:55:29
Speaker
So hiring an attorney who cares more about strategy than intimidation or bulldogness. I don't know. Is it like you have a bulldog? Is that what they're looking for? I don't know. Well, there are some, but that's definitely going to eliminate you again. oh want an attorney I mean, of course, if you're going to be in court, you want an attorney who's um you know savvy in court, has litigation experiences, you know,
00:55:56
Speaker
in it be able to advocate for you in court, but having a, I don't know, loud mean. I think some people feel like it's somebody who has a presence in the courtroom. And I feel like you really there's a lot of really good attorneys that don't appear as if they do, but they have an amazing presence in the courtroom once they're in there. There's a lot, there's a big misconception that's like attorneys are performers. They have to be, especially if you litigate. I think part of it is, you know, for, for people who've been through a divorce, they will understand this better. They want someone who is going to
00:56:37
Speaker
push them against the wall, that it's just going to not not let them play any games or manipulation because I'm done with that. I'm over it. They're not going to get away with it anymore. you know And is basically it's it's a vengeful thing or a petty thing where they want to make sure that they've got someone who's just going to go after their ex. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Which, I mean, I guess if that if that is the goal, then then everyone's on the same page and OK, great, that's what I want you to do. But if you're not asking for that, that kind of approach is going to end up costing you lots and lots of money that you wouldn't have to spend otherwise. That's why it doesn't make a lot of sense for me. but Well, I think we've exhausted everything we want to talk to you about, Jamie, so we're never going to have you back on. thanks Oh, just kidding. No, I think we definitely we could go and we could go on and on there in a minute. so
00:57:34
Speaker
museum we we We want you back for more. But before before we completely sign off, if you have a few moments to spare, we do have a few more Ask the Expert ah questions from Sam and Sarah. I'm going to assume that they've already established who's going to start. Yes, I think I know who's going to start. All right, then let's go. I'm the expert, right?
00:57:59
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Uh, this is part two of are these more good reasons to get divorced? Um, so the first one, uh, they watch episodes of the show you're watching together, but without you and pretended like they didn't, but they clearly did as they didn't react to the episodes as they should have. Yeah, definitely divorce.
00:58:21
Speaker
nice Cool. Noted. Even if they didn't lie about it, that's but you can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. What about if they didn't comment on the mixtape that you spent hours and hours and hours on making for them? um Like they didn't acknowledge that you made it? Yeah, they just didn't say anything about it. What if they don't have a tape player? Okay, well, what if it's a Spotify playlist? Okay. um Yeah, definitely divorce. That's pretty important.
00:58:56
Speaker
Just spoiler alert, Jamie's going to say everything is grounds for divorce. But that's fine. Keep going with your little charade. Come on. What about if they forget your half birthday? Oh, yeah, no, no. But I'm not I'm not about the the birthday thing. You get one day, you don't get a week, you don't get a month, whatever. It's one day. So what's with these birthday month people? Yeah, I cannot. Get over yourself. Right.
00:59:24
Speaker
yeah We should get one day, geez. But maybe they should divorce you for wanting to celebrate your happy birthday. Oh my goodness. Now the tables are turned. Whoa.
00:59:41
Speaker
There. Okay. um What if they say they don't care what's for dinner? And then when you propose an option, they say, no, that doesn't sound very good. And then that happens for 30 minutes back and forth. No divorce, like it shouldn't even be 30 minutes, five minutes done.
00:59:59
Speaker
So have you all seen that video where this guy's like, he figured out this hack for his girlfriend who never knows where she wants to eat. So she gets in the car and he says, all right, you'll never you'll never guess where I want to go for dinner. You'll never ever guess. And so she's like, um, so and so. And he's like, yes, that's it. We're going right now.
01:00:22
Speaker
He tricked her into making a decision on where to eat I don't know so that would not at least well He always wants pizza and I never wore pizza always You also don't ever know what you want don't ever not know what you want that's fair me next and here okay so what if they steal all the blankets during the night and just don't that divorce definitely divorce yep oh jeez uh what if they don't support wait wait wait wait wait i want to make sure there is no talking over for this one all right sarah go what if what if they don't support your dreams of becoming a dj
01:01:16
Speaker
I think, you know, music is really important. We're back to the Spotify playlist. Yeah. If they don't support that, then how are you going to achieve your dreams with having them holding you back? No, divorce. Oh, so right. Yeah. And then and the last one. Hold on. Do you have another source of income? No.
01:01:41
Speaker
ah Again, another one where the other person has grounds for divorce. Yes. i Maybe keep them around for a minute. What if your spouse who has a good job, high paid job, wants to quit that and become a DJ? Would that be a reason to get divorced, Jamie? Yes. Yes. Oh, man. Yes. Okay. And then finally, what if I have adopted my spouse's kids, right? But I don't like them because they keep stealing my things, like my shoelaces.
01:02:16
Speaker
The problem here is that adoption is irreversible. So even if you divorce them, you'd still be responsible for these little jerks. So you may as well stay together. I think a better thing to do than stealing your shoelaces would be to tie them together. Maybe do it back to them and see how they like it. Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:46
Speaker
So if you you can forfeit your parental rights, if you are a biological or legal parent, but you can't, if you're an adoptive parent.
Concluding Remarks and Farewell
01:02:57
Speaker
you you You can, but you still need to have a judge say, okay, you can terminate your parental rights. I feel like they're stealing your shoelaces. Over shoelaces? I think the judge would understand. Maybe they're kleptomaniacs. That's a whole like parent-child relationship changing, no.
01:03:16
Speaker
Sometimes also, maybe you could still be ordered to pay child support. Yeah. and Which I don't know might be worth it. Listen, Sam, if you just because helping this kid, you better commit. Well, she doesn't have a spouse, let alone a spouse with kids. Hypothetical situation.
01:03:40
Speaker
Yes, but everybody just know that if you sever your parental rights through one way or another, that doesn't eliminate them from being an heir to your estate. yeah So get your will, get your trust, get yourself protected. and All right. Well, thank you. They do. Yeah. But then you have someone to give your. so know I have a tread for that.
01:04:10
Speaker
Well, then you have it's also nice when you're like, like they clean the litter box, they bring you drinks from the fridge. They say funny things. They're cute. They say they call you mama and say funny things. They do. go me The way Poppy Brits open that fridge is so funny.
01:04:32
Speaker
I know. Yeah, I guess you all haven't seen that but she like does the whole what's in here for me. In the morning. We're five. times as well that yogurt. I want yogurt. I want milk.
01:04:49
Speaker
I want strawberries. The best part was the sun was shining, so you couldn't really see her. You just saw like her pigtails like bouncing, and then you just see the doors get like shoved open so aggressively. Has she tried climbing in the fridge yet? Because she climbs on other surfaces. And she was naked, because she's going through a naked phase. So maybe she gets home. She's ripping it off. It started with just the shirt. Now it's the shirt and the pants.
01:05:17
Speaker
I mean, if you're at home, that's kind of free. Yeah, yes. Anyway, Jamie, thank you again for joining us again. well So much fun. I love being at Oh, I do one last thing. um And we don't have to include this Sarah. quite a comfortable What do you think of our newest tagline of Give your loved ones the long lasting, fantastic legacy lasting gift of the estate planning. It's way better than the crap you have now. Yeah. Thank you. but one of over no that ah long last like The long fantastic legacy lasting gift of a estate planning. Is that what it is, Sam? Yeah. And then every time we say it, we're going to add another word.
01:06:09
Speaker
perfect and
01:06:13
Speaker
Thanks for listening. And just to cover all our bases about what you just heard, I'm sorry and you're welcome. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode and tell your friends about us. We do webinars and live events.
01:06:29
Speaker
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01:06:59
Speaker
much better. Yeah I thought that had a lot of energy.