Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to another episode of One of Us Knows What They're Talking About and the other one is you. I'm Lori Burch, your host. Join us as we discuss and unpack wills, trusts, estate planning, and probate law in a way that's actually informative, interesting, and well, hopefully entertaining. Because if you don't have a will, the state of Texas has one for you.
Speaker: Let's dive in.
Speaker: For those of you who are listening, you have no idea. For those of you who are watching, you're like, who's this other person? So we are joined today by ah guest. was say a special guest, but then was like, everybody always says a special guest. So it's just a guest.
Speaker: A special guest. ah A guest who is special. um Patricia Devine. But you all may know her. No, that's not.
Speaker: It's not her name. it It's what's on her credit card, but it's not her actual name. Why are we not doing the topic of how people don't know their own names? Because this comes up so much. Hey, Bert, we can switch that right this second.
Speaker: Patty falls into that. We were at a dinner where we, I'm sure the waiter really loved us because it was like nine or so of us. And we're all and doing individual checks. And so they hand the credit cards back. And it's like, well, here, I'm handing them out. And then there's one says, Patricia Divide. and of like Who the hell is Patricia Devine?
Speaker: I'll tell you who. It is Patty Vargas. It is one Patty Vargas. So Patty, introduce yourself. Why? You've done a fabulous job. Have I? Yeah. If I were introducing you before you were getting up to speak, what I just did nailed it.
Speaker: No. No. Okay. Well, then why don't why don't you give us, and then you tell us a little bit about who you are, ah and then we'll talk about how we know each other.
Speaker: ah you get to tell all the fun Lori stories. who We don't have enough time. So I'm happy for any time. I'm Patty Vargas.
Speaker: I am from Sacramento, California, and ah i am a grief recovery coach. And I specifically work with families who have lost somebody to substance use disorder.
Speaker: So that's me. Okay. And how did we meet? Oh, in a galaxy far, far away. We met through American Business Women's Association.
Speaker: And yes traveled together, served on a couple of boards together. Well, we were we were on the national board of directors for the American Business Women's Association together. I was a little, little District 2 vice president.
Speaker: Don't ask me what states are in that. It's Texas.
Speaker: Oklahoma. Arkansas and Louisiana. Yeah, I think that's it. I think that's all. Mississippi? yeah We don't have Mississippi? District 2?
Speaker: ah So would that be D3? don't know. No, I would have been less than you do now. This district setup was way before Hunger Games, although it's really unfortunate because I kind of wish Hunger Games was out when we were on the board because we would have had a lot of fun with that.
Speaker: So there are six districts. In ABWA, no, don't ever call it that. That's not a thing. It is ABWA. So Sam, do not get tempted. and There's actually seven districts. Well, I was getting to that.
Speaker: We do relegate certain members to District 7.
Speaker: but it doesn't actually exist. No, but anyway, but Patty, when I was first elected to the board was the national secretary treasurer, or as I one time mistyped it and she'll never let me live it down.
Speaker: National secretary treasurer. Yeah. ah
Speaker: So, yes, Patty is a national treasure. I am a national treasure. Yes. And i i don't even know how we became good friends. I know it's a mystery it's a mystery to everybody how it happened.
Speaker: We have nothing in common. Um, anyway, so Patty's visiting and I thought what better thing to do than to have her just, um, live a few days in the life of Lori Birch. So I've done nothing special at all. She's just, um, she's got gotten to witness, um, work and, uh, uh, Kimberly and Lori banter, um, the crazy banter kids, all of the above.
Speaker: And you're welcome. thank you vargas so obviously and eat your lovely staff so thank you and i i said eat my lovely staff and i'm like what meat meat you could have lunch with us on thursday i did yeah and yeah that thursday thursday for sure thursday or sha ah So, yes. So very happy to have have you here ah visiting in general, but also on the podcast. And you yeah didn't you have a podcast at one time, Patty? Because I feel like I was on it.
Speaker: You talked about women's leadership. yeah It wasn't a podcast. It was a radio show. oh is there a difference? Nice. Yeah, it was um it was with that other organization that I was telling you about earlier.
Speaker: Okay, we don't talk about We don't talk about broom. No. So, ah you know, obviously in all the discussions we have when it comes to estate planning, wills, trust, probate, we tackle a lot of issues.
Speaker: And one of the things is besides the kind of legal legal component to it, it's just... One of the things we always try to get across to people, especially when they're doing the planning ahead of time, which is really the best time to do it, is the fact that this isn't just...
Speaker: ah you know, a contract that's going to go into effect at some point. Like when when your family is going through this, it's going to be during a time of grief, of tremendous grief. And it's not when people are at their best.
Speaker: ah It's not when you want them to have to jump through a bunch of legal and bureaucratic hoops. It's not when you want them to have to dole out a lot of money when they're uncertain of how they're going to continue in life.
Speaker: And so there is a lot that we work around when it comes to grief. And then on the probate side of things, we are only dealing with people who've lost a loved one.
Speaker: So I really don't know why you would name someone you didn't care for as your executor, unless I can think of certain situations that, know, ah you'd want to do that. But for the most part, um and I personally have lost someone close to me.
Speaker: And so I've experienced this firsthand, but we were going to talk about, um stupid things people say to people who are grieving
Speaker: or if we're, we're not delicate on the show because it's called, one of us knows what that we're talking about. Another one is you. So the idea is that we're trying to be a little bit, uh,
Speaker: you tongue in cheek, but really trying to help people understand certain concepts that they themselves may not be as familiar with or think they're experts on. And certainly when it comes to grief, there's a lot of things that people think that are the best things to say or aren't thinking at all. And um these are some things you should try to avoid. And so Patty, because she has a lot of the really personal experience that she has in whatever degree she wants to share that,
Speaker: This is an open forum. And then some things that um she would advise us and, you know, really advise us as um as a team as well, because we're dealing with our our clients and their family members. And we want to make sure that we're not saying anything um that is insensitive or can be taken the wrong way.
Speaker: So, Patty, what are some some of your thoughts here? Well, you know, the the problem is that we live in a very grief illiterate society. um It's ah we don't go in for big displays of grief and so forth. I'm talking about like in Western civilization and stuff. You know, we look at that as being, you know, uncouth or embarrassing or so forth. So.
Speaker: We don't really educate people on how to deal with grief, how to manage grief, how to show up for people who are grieving and so forth. So it's it sort of stands to reason.
Speaker: Like you said, Laurie, the worst time to try to make a plan is when you need a plan. The worst time to try to know what to say to somebody who is grieving is when you need to be able to comfort somebody or say something. So we would be.
Speaker: well served if we did teach people about it. If we normalize the fact that people die, accidents happen, ah you know, everyone doesn't get to live to be 95. So um wait yeah It's just something that is uncomfortable for folks. And, you know, one thing, you know, people often say, if you don't know what to say, don't say anything at all. That is the absolute worst thing that you can do.
Speaker: If you don't know what to say, just say, I am so sorry. And I know from personal experience that carries a ton of weight more than some of the other stuff that people say, um,
Speaker: So, yeah, that's that's kind of sort of an opener to what we can talk about here. so So I'll offer a few things. And i I will say I actually have some personal questions because it's not like there's one black and white set of rules of what to say and not to say. Because some people um some people may resonate with with the way some people will say things and other people don't.
Speaker: won't You know, one thing that I know that I've I've heard go both ways is um saying, i i can't imagine what you're going through. So that right there, I've heard some people say, well, I really appreciate that. Like you're acknowledging that this is something that's overwhelming and it's personal to me.
Speaker: And I've heard other people who take offense to something like that. It's like, what do you mean you can't imagine? You know, it's it's like it it disconnects them rather than acknowledging them. And so i that's a question I have for you, Patty, is what what kind of thoughts do you have around?
Speaker: I can't imagine what you're going through. Yeah, that one is a ah two-edged sword because it depends on who it is that's saying it. If it's somebody who doesn't know you well, um then I think it's an okay thing to say. And you can say, well, thank you. I appreciate that you you recognize the depth of of my loss or something. If it's somebody you're really close to and they say, i can't imagine what you're going through, i have said,
Speaker: Try. Just try. Yeah. Really nice. If you tried to step into my shoes, that's not appropriate to somebody who you're not close enough to either, you know, but if it's somebody that really ought to understand why your loss is so great, then i think that's an appropriate thing to say back.
Speaker: So going to throw out one just from personal experience, but i'm I'm more just what I've gone through and not an expert or someone who trains or coaches or has any sort of um education or credentials around this.
Speaker: But in my experience, when people try to mitigate or try to so somehow, you know, compare it to something that's and incomparable. So when my father passed away, my stepfather passed away, somebody said to my mom, and the the biggest thing that like really was a sticking point, the person who said this was married to a therapist.
Speaker: And she said, well, you've been divorced before. So you know what it's like to lose a spouse. Oh,
Speaker: It's not the same. Not the same. Yeah. wow Yeah. Yeah. yeah Or they will. All loss is is traumatic. Right. It it just is, you know, but and loss is in the eye of the beholder.
Speaker: But when somebody would say, you know, after my son died, I know how you feel. We lost my dog last year. And you're like, oh, I know that you lost your dog and I know that you loved your dog and so forth. But come on, really?
Speaker: and know and Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And that's not to you know downplay like losing a pet. And you know, like it's very hurtful. It is not the same.
Speaker: yeah And that's, um by the way, just as someone with kids, anytime you are sharing stories about kids, you do not feel like you have to connect with them by sharing stories about your pets.
Speaker: That's a little insulting. It's not just grief. It's not just loss. um you know if i'm talking about having a challenge with one of my kids at school i don't need to hear how yeah my dog flunked obedience school at pet smart know that's
Speaker: so that's not the same that's gonna be new go-to for you yeah Yeah. Considering 90% of the things I talk about at the office for my kids, I can't wait for you guys to like take what I just said and run with it.
Speaker: But if you ever compare. My dog is never going to get into doggy Harvard. So, you know, that's after We'll never get into any kind of.
Speaker: school that's based off aptitude yeah never sure he's doing the other thing is is people who feel like they need to explain it or justify it you know that's that's some of my favorites is people who feel the need to uh to to step into the position of god and explain why god did this Which is horribly just riddled with hubris to begin with, you know. But, you know, when they say things like, you know, God need another angel or God needed more than you did or, you know, God never gives you more than you can handle.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. He does, you know, so it's just, you know, so much of this is just in the category of just don't, just don't, you don't need it Nobody, God doesn't need anybody to stand up for him or explain him or speak for him or, you know, and I just think it's incredibly, um thoughtless and, and, uh,
Speaker: concceited i really i really don't like the and they're in a better place. it it is and on one hand, it's it is comforting for those who believe that. And and I get that.
Speaker: But to be that's not the point. You're the one that's grieving and you're not in a better place. Right. yeah So being told that they're in a better place, yeah, okay, great, but I'm here, and now here sucks way more than it ever did.
Speaker: I'm not in better feels a really big thing where everyone's like, but this isn't somehow, like there this isn't any way about how you're feeling. But it's like, but... I have to go through my daily tasks.
Speaker: I have to go through this. I have to do that. And the person I would turn to to help with this is no longer that like, why is why can't we be selfish about grief? That is a really big thing. That's really puzzling.
Speaker: And like, I've always kind of struggled with it's like, but you, you need a moment. You need to have it acknowledged. Like, why don't we? Yeah. Yeah. ah that's i I know.
Speaker: So one thing I've ranted about, Patty, that I don't I don't know if you're going to agree with me on this because it's not one that I would necessarily wouldn't die on this hill. But for some reason, I'm really bothered bothered when people say somebody died before their time.
Speaker: And I get that, if you know, when they're young. But who's to say whose time any anybody's is? you know i could have dealt with a few more years of Betty White, but she was very old. you know Did she die before her time? Because i mean she certainly probably had a lot more joy to give us.
Speaker: oh and i just like who's to It's just a weird expression to me. I've i've never really liked it. because it's like who's to say I understand when it's someone who is they didn't get to live their full lifespan that we would think they didn't die of natural causes. Maybe I don't know what it is, but it's like, that seems like such a throwaway thing to say about someone dying before their time. And then it makes me feel like a lot of pressure because here I am. And it's like, gosh, id I better do some really good things because if I've got all, you know, if I died now, people said she died before her time, but it's like, well, that means I'm supposed to do it much more. Like what's wrong with what I've done now?
Speaker: Right. Like, you know, if if I was struck down now, I think some people would look at my age and my health be like, wow, she died before her time. But it's like, did I not do enough with the time that I had was like, we'd not just be like, you know what, but a wife, a life well lived.
Speaker: Yeah. you know Anyway, that's just one I don't I don't love. I don't hate it, but I don't love it. Yeah, I agree. And I think that still goes into the whole trying to come up with some kind of a justification or ah explanation or or what have you. You know, the the other thing is is just all these um a good death and a bad death. And, ah you know, um there's this concept ah of disenfranchised grief where,
Speaker: you are taking my grief away and you are explaining it away and taking it away from me by making it like, um you know, Sometimes suicide falls into this, um a death from substance use disorder, um those kinds of things where it's not it's not the noble death. It's not the fireman that ran into the building and lost his life or or the child who died of childhood cancer, you know, or or honor student who's killed in a car wreck. You know, those kinds of things. that These are...
Speaker: quiet deaths, things that we don't talk about as much, or we don't know what to say, or it's, you know, um and it's, ah I had somebody say to me, ah well, your son died of a self-inflicted wound because he died from his addiction.
Speaker: And it's like, how in the world is that helpful? How is that? How is that helpful to me? How is that helpful to the world? ah You know, how, it and,
Speaker: What their goal with that? Huh? that's cruel. What their goal with that? I have a theory explain it away. to explain it away there There is a theory called the just world theory for all of you psychology students out there that is in in order for the world to make sense, in order for the world to be fair, then there has to be a reason why things happen.
Speaker: And if death is just a random, sad event, then there's nothing that would prevent that from happening to me or anybody I love. So you've got to have this just world where everything happens for a reason. Everything makes sense.
Speaker: And, you know, and I hate to break it to people, but not everything happens for a reason. Sometimes just happens. And sorry, if you're not allowed to swear on this podcast. I know we do all the time.
Speaker: Yeah, because stuff does just happen. Awful things happen. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. So. yeah Yeah.
Speaker: part of my theory in what I've seen is that Because what Patty was saying, it's our it's it's a cultural thing. we're very We're very uncomfortable and we don't know what to say.
Speaker: and I think sometimes the things that come out of people's mouths, it's really more they're talking to themselves. They're trying to make themselves feel better. It's something that that mitigates them for themselves because it's very uncomfortable to be around a person who's grieving.
Speaker: It is in our in our society is rather than in other cultures that accept this as a part of life, no matter how it turns up and can just sit with that. And I think I'm trying to remember. I wish I had i had researched this before we tackled this topic, but I think it was maybe from the Tao of Pooh.
Speaker: Are any of you like Winnie the Pooh? the towel. Oh my gosh, you've got to look into this and it's ah part of it. And it has to do, I think now this shows up more when we talk about EQ, emotional intelligence, where trying to,
Speaker: ah
Speaker: help somebody or have an answer for them. And I, the way that my, I've always loved this expression for my mom. She was like, just kick the trash can with me. That's what I'm looking for. I don't need problem solving.
Speaker: And I don't know where she got that. If she came up with that herself or she heard somebody say that, but she but she's like, if you're, if you're feeling something and so you're kicking the trash can, I don't need you to to resolve it. I don't need you to fix it.
Speaker: And in this case, it's not something you can fix. I just want you to kick the trash can with it. I just want you to be there and show me that you're there. And I think a lot about that with things. But I do think that it makes people so uncomfortable, at least in our society.
Speaker: culture to that half the time they're saying, saying it for themselves. And the last thing i want to say on this particular topics, I feel very passionate about it is I think what's really sad for people who are grieving is that I feel like often we are put in a position where not only are we the ones grieving, but we're the ones that have to extend that understanding that other people don't, they don't know what to say. So they're doing their best.
Speaker: listen Yeah, absolutely. I love that term that your mom said, I'm going to steal that. um So much of what people say is for their own benefit, not really for yours.
Speaker: And You know, if it it's this whole idea of if it happened to you, it could happen to me. So it's it's really kind of terrifying, you know, and one of the things that that we try to share with with our clients, you know, when we're working in in the grief circles and the grief forums is. you You don't have to be anything. You don't have to feel any way You don't have to show up any particular way.
Speaker: This is about you right now because we do try to make it comfortable for other people. We try to show up in a way that makes them more comfortable or if we think we're going to be the... You know, the ah the sad thing in the room, we just don't go, that kind of thing. instead of And we're making allowances for everybody else's uncomfortableness, where we really need to cut ourselves some slack and cut ourselves some grace and say, it's okay to not be okay.
Speaker: and And hopefully folks will adjust to us. ah You know, not... Not everybody is entitled to your story. You know, like I don't tell everybody everything that happened with my son, because I know in some circles that just won't be appreciated and and they don't deserve to hear all of that.
Speaker: you know He doesn't deserve to be exposed like that. And so you you sort of find those safe places and and where you feel like you can safely say what you need to say and where it's not necessarily so. And again, that's not even the right way to say It's not that it's not safe to say, it's just they don't deserve this story right now.
Speaker: And I i hate to sound kind of mean and exclusionary, but... You know, it it is the way that it is. If it's not going to be understood or empathized with, then why why bother?
Speaker: You know, why go there? Well, and that makes me think of something I was telling you about recently when my stepdad had passed away. So my my mom and my stepdad were very active in the local business community.
Speaker: And so after his passing, i moved back here to start my own law practice. So I was now i was really followed in my mom's footsteps, including the American Business Women's Association that she was very active in.
Speaker: And so a local chamber of commerce I got involved in and, and it was, you know, for a while I was Jana high's daughter, which is a true honor. Um, but then after a couple of years, she became Lori Birch's mom. So she, you know, sheepishly would be, you know, smile about that, but still, you know, be like, you know, I'm still Jana high.
Speaker: Uh, and she is, and she always will be, but anyway, so someone that I was networking with at a network, if this was in a bar at a networking event. crowded We're in a group. we're all in Here I am, a 27-year-old, starting my own law practice and moving back here because I wasn't even living here, grieving this tremendous loss, just trying to make this work. and this gentleman's like, hey, I didn't want to ask your mom about this, but how'd your dad die again?
Speaker: hi and And for those who know, it was it was ah traumatic death. It wasn't even like where I can say it's like it's a death you have to explain because it was the leaking propane tank. He got stuck in the garage, knocked him out. you know It's more of a story than that, but just to give you some idea.
Speaker: It's not like cancer. Like I can't even not to. And again, I'm not saying yeah different kinds of death are different. It's just that's it's a story that I don't want to explain. And so we um got used to just telling people it was an accident. And sometimes my mom would say car accident because the propane intake was in his car.
Speaker: And that's where she found him, because it just is like, Why? why Why does that matter? Why do people have to know that? And even, um you know, we never ask that when we're meeting with probate clients.
Speaker: And because we don't, sometimes they'll bring it up. And then if they, if maybe they need to pursue a wrongful death claim or mental medical malpractice, but if they want to share that story, then we'll let them share that story.
Speaker: But yeah, you know, we, it's just not something, I don't know. I feel very uncomfortable and maybe other people don't feel uncomfortable, but because I experienced that when I'm dealing with clients and they've lost someone, I, and and then I struggle with, I don't want to seem disinterested. Like I don't care, but it's like, I, that's something that I feel like if you want to share how this went down, you will share that with us. Cause it's certainly not relevant to the legal standpoint.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um Yeah. and And when we were talking about that ah last night and you shared that story with me, I learned um because i I was the grieving mom.
Speaker: So people responded to me way different than they did my husband. People don't normally ask him. They don't on a regular basis ask him, how are you doing?
Speaker: you know how How are you guys doing? Hey, you're going into the holidays. It's going to roughy. Nobody ever asks him that. and people would ask my kids, my other kids, how's your mom?
Speaker: And they're like, but we're, we lost him too. And so there's just this whole like hierarchy of how close are you to the person and why should you, which is why he asked you instead of asking your mom, you know, and yet you're like, how insensitive can that possibly, well, it's because it goes back to that.
Speaker: They just don't think, you know, they, they just don't think, um, It's, you know, sometimes if folks say, oh, I'm so sorry that your son passed. How did he die?
Speaker: and and if I say, well, you know, he he died from addiction.
Speaker: I mean, closed, you know, the shutters go down. That's the end of it. and Nobody asks any more questions, you know, and then, you know, okay, this is not a safe place. And, you know, that's the end of the conversation.
Speaker: It's so much more affirming when somebody says, I am so sorry. Would you like to talk about it? Or did he struggle for long? Or, you know, anything that shows a modicum of understanding or or literacy about, you know, the topic.
Speaker: Um, yeah and as time goes on, uh, fewer people mention his name, fewer people talk about him. Um, you know, and that, that's just like a constant, uh, dying, you know, over and over again. You know, what I, I was, um, a friend of mine introduced me to her adult daughter, a while back and, and we were just sitting together at this table and she said, do you have any pictures of Joel?
Speaker: Um, And it moved me to tears because nobody, nobody ever asks that, you know, and the fact that she was so young and so, you know, ah authentic and just said, you know, do you have any pictures of him? And I was like, you oh my God, do I?
Speaker: And yeah it was just really great. But, but that just shows you how seldom that happens. The fact that it moved me like that. Yeah. So what a couple of things that what you said made me think of and and want to go back to one thing and then kind of hit on really kind of passage of time.
Speaker: Uh, but also i really struggled having to refer to him as my stepdad because I never did from the moment that my mom got married. I mean, I i have my dad and i love him and we, we have a much better relationship as an adult than I did growing up for various, various reasons, not pointing fingers at anybody.
Speaker: Um, But just not super, super close. I was a mama's girl. And so from the moment my mom got remarried, he was dad. I only ever referred to him as dad. My other siblings that where he was stepdad was always dad.
Speaker: And And because I was now becoming more in the public scene where I was speaking, especially like with ABWA, I felt very disingenuous if I didn't make that distinction. Because if I said, you know, one day, you know, my dad passed away and then I'm talking about...
Speaker: antique cars that my dad restores in California. They're like, wait a minute, who are you talking about? Your story, you get your story straight. Like it just, so I got more comfortable calling him stepdad, but that was always public facing. It was never something that I did. And I, I had to work with that. But then at the same time, um, it was something where people would ask me, well, were you close to him?
Speaker: When they would find out it was my stepdad and that somehow it was less of a loss because he wasn't my biological dad. He was my stepdad. And And I have a whole thing about, you know, step parents and this and that anyway, I am a step parent as well as, you know, a biological parent.
Speaker: And, you know, i I, I hope that it, I hope that it honors him because I've tried to model myself as a step parent with those girls that it's even, it's a greater honor because I choose to be your parent.
Speaker: I don't choose to be your parent's spouse. I'm choosing to also be your parent. Whereas with the other ones that have to be, and I choose that too. But it, to me, I think, I think we discount step parents so much, but that's, that's a whole nother thing that I think I was telling you.
Speaker: And sometimes I don't remember this because it's been a while. It's been a while. It's been over 20 years since this happened. and And he, he died in August. And so the first of everything were,
Speaker: Holidays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, his birthday was in February. And all of us were rallying around my mom because really, really devastated, even to this day, devastated. um But Father's Day...
Speaker: That was the first holiday that hit where I didn't have to say, okay, how how's mom doing? And that would hit me hard. And it was almost a whole year later, you know June, 10 months later.
Speaker: And that's the one that really got me. And to your to what you're mentioning is that was that was the one i could have. That was the one where people could be like, where me and my siblings, like, how are you guys doing?
Speaker: Yeah. Instead of how's your mom doing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah That's a good point. Um, I didn't even think about that because, ah
Speaker: Mother's Day has ah has never been my favorite holiday, even before any of this happened. I always felt like it was um forced adoration. You know, if you will buy me a gift. You will take me out to eat. You will come over. You will, you know. breath I just never liked those those kinds of things.
Speaker: But it it it hit way different, you know, after he passed away. Because now, do I have three children? Do I have two children? Do I what, you know, it, it was a whole really messes with your head.
Speaker: And, um, yeah, so that, well, remember you're telling me a story about where somebody's only child had passed and then, then grappling with, am i even a parent? Can I even say I'm a mom?
Speaker: but And as the, I can't even wrap my head around like how that must really impact somebody to have to think that that way. I mean, It's tough stuff.
Speaker: So there's this grief is ah um a real I have a friend who wrote a book called grief is a sneaky bitch. And I thought, what a great title. Look. But it it messes with your mind. And there are things that that you will lie awake at night suddenly thinking about, you know, like like my friend who lost her own her only son.
Speaker: Am I still a mom? Well, of course, you're still a mom. But these are the kinds of things that hit you, you know. um Yeah. ah should I, should I do this? Or will people think that's weird? Or, you know, do we acknowledge his birthday? Or I mean, it's been, you know, he's not really here having a birthday. Well, it's still his birthday.
Speaker: um Just all kinds of those kinds of things that um until you've been there, you don't, you just don't think about those things. And again, kind of falls into the category of ah be glad you don't think about that. But if we did,
Speaker: you know, make, make this not such a taboo subject. I think people would be way, way, way, way better off.
Speaker: And I think that some people, and I think most people understand this, but it, we kind of lose sight of it is that grief is not linear. It's not the stages don't happen in order. And once those stages happen, they're not done.
Speaker: i think it, I'm probably going to say this wrong. So again, this, if there were a a licensed therapist, they'd be able to say, I know what I'm talking about and you don't worry. So I'd, I'd get in trouble here. But I remember something when i was talking to a therapist about, what is it?
Speaker: The part of the brain, the hippo, the hippocampus campus that, that stores memories and that it doesn't, it doesn't have a, it doesn't know time.
Speaker: Right. Right. So you can have a memory and the feelings that you have can be as real as you felt in that moment. That even the passage of time is not something that, that would, and I mean, we've only scratched the surface of what we understand with the brain itself.
Speaker: And I think that's something that I learned personally. And, you know, I never, it's interesting, maybe serendipitous that I started my estate planning and probate practice in the wake of losing my dad.
Speaker: But that wasn't intentional um at all. I was already going to do that. In fact, my very last conversation with him was talking about moving back here from D.C. to start my own practice. And he had gone out looking at apartments for me.
Speaker: um That was my last conversation with him. So that this was already going to happen, but it did set such an interesting tone for me that a lot of people would say, um you know, how can you do that kind of law? and i And it wasn't what I intended to do initially, but you just, you know, if if you are fortunate enough or blessed enough, however you want to spin it,
Speaker: been it To find something that you were just meant to do. and And having that experience and then meeting with people and doing that, like my good friend, Jamie Dugan, who's been on the podcast does divorces, and she's very passionate about helping people through that.
Speaker: um I would pull every hair out of my gorgeous head of hair um doing that kind of law. And thank goodness there's people like Jamie who have that passion and drive to do that. And for me, i even though it was because of a lot of closed doors that I found this one, I really think that I was meant to do that. And one of the biggest things that I try to be very mindful of in my experience, and so I i really hesitate to ever give advice about anything. I know that sounds strange for a lawyer.
Speaker: ah um But I try to be very clear when something's advice. um And I don't feel like this is advice. It's just something I've experienced. And that is the people around you are typically much better at checking in with you right in the wake of everything happening.
Speaker: And that's... I hate to say this because I'm probably going to contradict the whole point of our episode. I don't want to say that's the easiest part, but that's the busiest time um for a lot of people because you're having to sort through certain things, but memorials, contacting family, paperwork, like all of that. It's very busy. Yeah.
Speaker: it's very busy And it's when that kind of dies down that a lot, it gets harder, but that's the same time when people are starting to taper off and not check on you.
Speaker: And I, again, a person who's grieving has to somehow make sense of that for them. They should go back to their lives. i mean, I can't imagine it's like hard time. friends were, you know, feeling this with us, but it is something where I try to be very conscious of when we know someone who's gone through a loss to chicken every once in a while, at least in the, you know, initial, you know, months and years that follow, because that is something, um,
Speaker: Yeah. when it's going to hit you and it could hit you just as hard twenty years later because something comes up that you say and you're kind of almost caught off guard but how makes you feel as it did in the initial moment and grief what is it grief is a sneaky bitch you said yeah yeah that's That's so true.
Speaker: um and the whole you know elizabeth kubler ross never intended that those stages of grief be viewed as linear she was trying to put it definition on a emotion you know yeah and but because of the way it was presented people will, you know, come into our groups, they're saying, just, I ought to be over this by now.
Speaker: I should be better by now. I should be this by now. I should be that by now. And it's like, according to who, who said, who told you that? Because it doesn't, there is no time on it. And,
Speaker: ah
Speaker: it comes, it comes when it comes, you know, I, I think probably the, There's two definitions I like to use when I'm working with folks is one is that it's like a a wave, you know, and the wave just comes and just out of nowhere overtakes you, knocks you down and up is down and down is up. And you think you're not going to be able to stand and so forth.
Speaker: And then it ebbs away and you stand up and you live to fight another day. The other is that it's like a, it's like a plastic bag full of glass shards, right? So, you know, those glass shards are poking through the the plastic, that plastic can't hold those shards.
Speaker: So it's very painful and everything hurts and everything is a, is a sharp edge and everything pokes. And, and then as time goes, you're sort of building something around that plastic bag. And so the, the shards are still in there.
Speaker: You're just able to hold it a little bit better, you know? And, and that I think is, comforting to people when they, for whatever reason, think I ought to be over this by now. You don't ever get over it. How do you get over losing something that meant so much to you?
Speaker: And, and that's the, that's the flip side of love. Grief is the other side of love, right? If you didn't love something so much, you wouldn't grieve it so much. So how do you get over that? you know Well, I actually find a lot of comfort in that because actually one of my favorite quotes about grief comes from Marvel, the character Vision, who said, um what is it?
Speaker: What is grief, if not love, persevering? Yeah, yeah, yeah. and And so... It's a real, this is going to get very esoteric and it's something that it takes a long time to get to, but where you begin to befriend to your grief because it it's now, it's the bridge between you and them, you know, it's, and and you begin to not see grief as the enemy, but grief is your friend. Grief is that bridge.
Speaker: And if you, like said, if you didn't love them, you wouldn't grieve them. Yeah, there's actually, um i wish I'd looked this up to this little, i don't know how recently it was, but the actor Andrew Garfield, who had lost his mother, they did this little segment on Sesame Street with him where, um well i don't know, was it Elmo that was the one that was like talking him, asking about the mom? And then basically basically he was getting an emotional and Elmo was like, if you know I'm sorry. He was like, no, I love like asking. He was like, I love talking about her. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, i I really embrace the grief and I'm grateful for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't ever be afraid to ask about the person unless you're asking in a dumb ass, stupid way, you know, like, like how they die.
Speaker: Yeah. But ask, ask about them, ask about, you know, uh, What did they like to do? What can you tell me about them? What was your favorite thing about them?
Speaker: um the and Sometimes when when it gets super heavy and people are really in a dark, dark, dark place, that'll be a way to tell me what you loved about them. was the best thing about them?
Speaker: I drive people crazy because my son was a hip hop artist and I have a lot of his music on my phone. So, you know, they'll say, well, what can you tell me about him? Well, let me play this song, you know, and I'll, and it's just him in a, in a nutshell, you know, but it's, it really is.
Speaker: i love when people ask about him because like i said, those, it gets fewer and further ah apart, you know, the longer the time is. So I think that's a great segue um to talk about music and Joel's love of of music.
Speaker: um So we we have to we have to end the show with um you know Sam and Sarah getting their – they're called swag.
Speaker: But anyway, so one one of the things that that um Joel was passionate about, you're passionate about, Patty, and well, coincidentally, the rest of us are, is music and actually um attending concerts. So I thought we could chat a little bit about concerts. What you don't know, Patty, is that Swag has decided their segue.
Speaker: And so we'll start here. Why not? Oh, good. Okay. They have a list of dumb things to say to people at concerts. Ooh. Ah, love it.
Speaker: So, um, go ahead. All right. I just read this for the first time. Oh no. so we're going to start off with number one approved.
Speaker: Nothing's approved. So number one, Can you please move? You stink.
Speaker: yeah
Speaker: Number two, stop singing so loud. Your singing is really bad. can either be to a crowd or to the singer. To the performer? Yikes.
Speaker: Why are you there? Well, auto-tune, baby.
Speaker: Why are you so tall? Can you go to the back? um Keep in mind the seats are paid and reserved and it is not general admission. Okay.
Speaker: Can I have a sip of your drink? But you just respond. Who are you? Wow. Sarah would never do that. Hold on. Does Sarah have a straw? No, Sarah would never.
Speaker: Sarah comes over with her own straw. Can I have sip? I would maybe do that. Yeah, she would do that. Germaphobe here. Who are we seeing again?
Speaker: And lastly, can you shave your head next time? It's really hard to see over it. Are you staying behind Lori with her appearance? yeah um I will confirm.
Speaker: Those are all stupid things to say. Yeah, ah that actually reminds me. So i i love No Doubt and i saw them perform in Baltimore when they were together.
Speaker: And then I'll never forget. Then Gwen goes off, does her solo career, but they reunited for a concert with Evermore. And so I'm like, oh, my gosh, i no doubt is back together. So we went to the concert and there were so many youngsters that were saying, um my gosh, Gwen Stefani's in a band.
Speaker: Yeah. Maybe it's not the dumbest thing, but it one of the most offensive things that I heard. ah Okay, so here's my favorite.
Speaker: um Because I, my husband and I are big Pearl Jam fans. um I have loved them from inception. And we have gone to beaucoup numbers of concerts. And there are acceptable things you do at a Pearl Jam concert.
Speaker: And you can always tell the people who have never been to one before because they don't know. And it's so annoying. So they have this one song that's called elder Elderly Woman Between the Lunch Counter. It's the longest title in the whole Pearl Jam catalog. It goes on forever and ever.
Speaker: But it's usually like somewhere in the middle of the whole set. And everybody links arms. Now, i am not i don't touch me if you don't know me. I'm not that person. But there, I become that person. Everybody links arms and they sway. And you're like, I just want to sing. And everyone yells, hello.
Speaker: And I was at a concert with my daughter and I reached around and put my arm around this dude to the right of me. And he looked at me like, what is the matter with you? And I thought, oh, my God, you're a virgin.
Speaker: You've never been on concert. What's the matter with you? Who let you in here? It was terrible. Here's my other pet peeve. girls that go to Pearl Jam concerts all decked out like they were going to go to a No Doubt concert or something like that, you know, and their Gwen Stefani concert. Yeah, a Gwen Stefani concert.
Speaker: You know, their hair is all right and they're all dressed, you know, just so instead of all grunged out like the rest of us. And you're like, and I cannot help it. I just have to goof on them. It's just ah it's a requirement.
Speaker: ah This is really bad for me to say after I've been talking all about empathy and care and showing concern. I think it shows that you understand where you're coming from. can only go so far, Patty. That cup is full there, so it has to spill over somewhere else. Absolutely. absolutely Thank You're among friends here. Thank you. oh Patty, I do have a question, though, about concerts.
Speaker: Yes. Would you ever go to a Nickelback concert?
Speaker: Oh, boy.
Speaker: Hmm. Hmm. Maybe. please Wait a minute. i me I'm trying to do the math in my head. Maybe in 2006, maybe.
Speaker: Okay, hold on. Let me add a little bit of context. What if your friend had just gone through ah breakup and they were grieving and they asked you to go with?
Speaker: Then yes, I would. See?
Speaker: this is how then here's my question me of just who i really am did that help her grief if that's the way think wanted to do it then yes yeah okay which everybody's first concert sam are we talking like kid concert or actual concert ah You know what? It was Wiggles.
Speaker: The Wiggles? Yeah, it was the Wiggles. um Was it the OG Wiggles? yeah or well Yeah, I found the ticket when I was going through photos for baby photos.
Speaker: I have the ticket for it. In New Zealand? Yes. And then my first like actual, actual concert was Jonas Brothers. nice If you say so.
Speaker: Nice. Okay, cool. Cynthia? Um, oh, I can't remember their name.
Speaker: nato was Hold up. this was like... No, this was whenever was in high school and we were going to see a bunch of screamo bands. Oh, Lord. That was one of the first ones. You want me to start listening?
Speaker: Oh, there was a specific one. they popular? I don't know how popular overall...
Speaker: But yeah, it was like a roll-outs, grandma band, mosh pits and everything. wow Yeah. It was intense. Camping is intense. um Similarly, mine was a Pierce the Veil concert in high school.
Speaker: Okay. Third court. I lost my glasses. ah i but Like my glasses fell off in the pit and then I couldn't see the rest of the show. You are done for. Do you mosh at concerts?
Speaker: When I was in high school. That's wild. Were you the height you are now in high school or were you a late bloomer? yeah Yeah. So you were six foot three mosh. Nice. Nice.
Speaker: um it's i Yeah. Six foot three. She's not six foot three. She just, I mean, she would if she stood up straight. Right. I mean, you like possibly, possibly.
Speaker: ah Patty, what was your first concert? I'm holding everything back to say something really. i know should i know. I know.
Speaker: um yeah so if it's the Flintstones, no, not really. Yeah. that you okay thank No, it was the monkeys. at pal real Francisco. Yeah. The monkeys, my poor dad drove four screaming girls to the cow palace and sandwich was go to see the monkeys.
Speaker: Um, because i was the president of the first official monkeys fan club in San Jose. california oh Myself and the rest of the board members.
Speaker: Um, Like we had a board board numbers, went to see the monkeys in San Francisco. Yeah. But you were the president of that organization. I was the president.
Speaker: Yeah. Fuck you. Wait, we're not going talk about that part of our story. It's only a Patty's villa villain origin story. We'll talk about it offline.
Speaker: um All right. My first concert was in high school. And it was here in Dallas. And it was called The Greatest Rap Show Ever. Ah, Joel was good tracks.
Speaker: Yeah. if It was Oaktown 357, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, Queen Latifah, Naughty by Nature, um butline mc Light,
Speaker: man oh boy ge wow and um public enemy Wow. Yeah, might be missing one or two because, you know, Queen Latifah discovered Naughty by Nature. So they were like brand new when when they came out. I think that's that's most of them there. But I got i got a Queen Latifah short. That's the one I went home with.
Speaker: Nice. a Greatest rap show. Should we talk about it to be like worst concerts you ever went to? What's the worst concert? So i i I may get flack for this. So hear me out.
Speaker: I like this band, but you should just stay at home and listen to them. They are like a live concert. I was a little underwhelmed. The Steve Miller band.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. like So i'm not i'm not I'm not criticizing their music or them. It's just that they just stood... Not even like, how you doing, Dallas, Texas? Like, not even that.
Speaker: yeah It was just, we're going to play the song. Yeah, so that one was a little un underwhelming. yeah Okay, next. Who's next?
Speaker: don't think I have one. i have two. have two. I'm looking at my list and I... yeah yeah I know like how I am looking at my list. I have a list.
Speaker: I have a list. Wow.
Speaker: I don't know if I've been to a bad one. i mean, mine has to be me. Sarah has very low standards. We already established. Me, she does. I mean, there's one that I can think of, but i'm but if there's any K-pop enjoyers listening, I may get Brits for it. Oh, yeah. not Our kids are my audience is K-pop fans out there? No.
Speaker: If we would to were to do a Venn diagram of listeners of this podcast and K-pop fans, those would be two independent circles. Just have Sarah do it. It would just be me. It would just be me in the middle.
Speaker: just... listen to the po umtherra You've got to you've got to do that. That's the Venn diagram for you. I love to tell you the story about Sarah and Venn diagrams. It's a whole thing.
Speaker: But I won't say it. They were just semi-light cluster even though, okay well this is going to away, but three out of four of the members are fluent in English and you wouldn't think so with how they were. well now I know who you're talking about.
Speaker: Sam, that's a real... Yeah, that anybody... yeah it um But, like, the one who wasn't, isn't, like, fluent in English was speaking the most, like, in between songs and everything. And was like, you guys clearly did not practice anything.
Speaker: And it's very obvious. Yeah. All right, we're going let Patty in. So, Cynthia, do you have have a worst concert you've ever been to? I mean, you don't even remember. mean, probably one of those high school hard punk metalcore ones. Those can get real. The first one actually not bad. And I think the main headliner we were going to go see was the Chariot.
Speaker: But other ones probably. It's usually like the emo shows where like they're local and there's not really a lot of people so it's just kind of awkward. like is They're not like bad. It's just not Some of those were really good.
Speaker: I think it just depends on the venue. Who did I say played with no doubt Did I say Evermore? You did say Evermore. Okay. my My bad. I i i saw Evanescence in concert against my will.
Speaker: um I mean, it was awesome, Sarah. Sorry. It was really good. Actually, them, it was good. Like, if you like that music, I thought it was a very good concert. Just not not my bag. and I'm sorry. It was Paramore.
Speaker: Paramore. I'm jealous. It was awesome. Yeah. It was really good. lot of fun. I thought were going to take it with Pierre. My apologies. Who? Everclear instead of Evermore. No, that was just in her cup.
Speaker: ah
Speaker: Good one, Cynthia. All right, Patty, you said there's two? There's two. Okay. The first one is Smashing Pumpkins. and ill And it was at a a real dive place in San Diego. I mean, really dive place. Like you did not sit on the ground. You didn't do any, you didn't even lean against the wall. It was that bad.
Speaker: And Billy Corrigan, who I, can't, sorry if he's your thing, but I can't stand him spitting on the mosh pit, spitting into it. It was like disgusting. Like, who do you think you are? that was number one.
Speaker: Number two um was we saw Aerosmith at ah what was then Coors Arena in San Diego. And we've we've seen Aerosmith a number of times, but this particular time ah Kid Rock was opening for them.
Speaker: Oh, no. I was seeing him and everybody just cringes. And he was just awful. and um And normally the opening bands, they usually had really good folks opening for them. but he And he went on and on and on and on. and And we were my husband and I were on this this health stage.
Speaker: um fast purge thing we weren't drinking and it was like there is no way to get through any amount of time with Kid Rock sober he was terrible every gross thing about him every gross he was just gross awful yeah yeah terrible oh my gosh karan I was going to wrap it up there but I got to share one more story because I just thought we did the worst but we have we done the best We haven't. Yeah, we'll talk about that.
Speaker: ah Okay. All right, we'll end with the best. That's a good way to end. Let me share this quick story. This may be a band that only Patty knows. Sticks. Oh, yeah. Nope. I know they're familiar.
Speaker: Okay. So 80s band, but I was mostly a small child in the eighty s So I was listening to the Smurfs. So fast forward to, it's probably high school.
Speaker: And my brother, Terry, he worked for a liquor distributor that would get lots of concert tickets. And so a friend of my sister's had said, Sticks is going to be in town. you get me tickets? And he's like...
Speaker: yeah, I guess Okay. And so they bailed, like my sister and the friend bailed. or I don't know if my sister bailed her, but but anyway, my brother Terry is like, Hey, so and got tickets to sticks. You want to go? And I'm like, sure. Cause Terry was the one who went with me to the greatest trap show ever. It's the least I could have done for Terry. film but like Yeah. The one song that i know is mr bra roboto and They never played it
Speaker: e it. This was not good. This probably was probably the worst concert I've ever been to, frankly, because I love the Steve Miller band. I love their music. But this was just bad.
Speaker: And i didn't know any of these songs, really. And I don't think it's even the original lead singer anymore. And we were there through two encores and still did not get Mr. Roboto.
Speaker: yeah they were They were being, you know, haughty, right? You know, they were like, no, like we're not going to please the crowd. We're not going to please. Heaven forbid. Heaven forbid. All right. Best concert. And then we got to get you all back to work.
Speaker: Yeah. Who wants to go first? All right. I'll go. Sarah. I'm going to say... Lorde, and really any Fall Out Boy concert. I can't decide.
Speaker: Yeah. Not Shania Twain. Oh, man. All
Speaker: all right. Yeah. it's how Yeah. All right. Okay. Sam. I think mine is a mix between also full out boy because they're very good lives. Mikey McCormick romance, BTS. And then of course, Taylor was very good.
Speaker: Yeah. Our girl. and Look at Sarah. Did you forget that little thing we did like um two years ago? Literally two years ago tomorrow.
Speaker: ah know. ah We were leaving my house and like one of my neighbors is like, wow, this looks like a bachelorette party about to happen. We're like, no, we're just going to a concert.
Speaker: Yeah. Cynthia, best concert. um o It's in between one of the most recent Mochisee soundtracks. Or Blink-182. Oh, I would too. Blink's real. I mean, like my Chemical Romance and Blink were on the same concert, so I'm counting those at two. I saw Pierce the Vale and Blink-182 together when they were here. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Blink-182 was in my backyard. Maybe the grades were so good. Patty's going to bring it home, but I have to do some different eras, so... gosh, this is hard.
Speaker: So, I mean, definitely Aeros tour. Like, there's just nothing that's going to, like, and that was just and was an incredible experience. um But I was at a concert.
Speaker: Yeah, for real. I was second row at the Paula Abdul concert. And I can put on a show that and that was really, really good. And then I have seen Dolly Parton in concert like three or four times. um Nice. And she's just so fun.
Speaker: She's just so great. Her, her jokes are so, she's just, that is going to be a, you want to talk about grief. Someone's going to need to check on me constantly. um But maybe, maybe she'll outlive me. I don't know.
Speaker: But you know, her husband of like, I don't know, 60 years or something like that. I just passed away. um she really She's someone who gives me hope and humanity that someone that's just genuinely kind and talented can exist.
Speaker: so Anyway, um but she also does. She can play like every instrument with these nails that are like this long. Do you have high? I don't know. She's so cool. Yeah. he's there but Anyway, so those are I could probably go on and on, but though we'll go with that. Patty, what did what do you got?
Speaker: Pearl Jam? Yeah, Pearl Jam. Absolutely. I mean, almost any Pearl Jam concert was was great. um so i have to So we had tickets to go see them in 2020.
Speaker: And that obviously got canceled because there was this other thing called coronavirus going on. So that got canceled, postponed to, and it was in my my birthday in April. And it got postponed to October, thinking everything would be over by then. And it was on my husband's birthday.
Speaker: And we're like, okay, that's cool. Well, then it got postponed again. So then we had to go back, you know, it was like, you know, two years later, whatever it came around. Well, then after, so coronavirus is all over, everything's done. Now we're going to have this concert. Um, everyone's happy. We show up at, at Oakland arena and, uh,
Speaker: And the drummer had just gotten, had come down with COVID that day. So he wasn't playing. and And it was just, it was very cool though, because everyone understood and they came out and, you know, Eddie is like, fuck this virus. Come on, you know, this terrible. and And they had at near the end of the concert, they actually brought a guy up out of the audience to play, you know, said, is anybody here a drummer? And Sky goes, yeah, I can play, you know, so he came and it was very cool. They closed out with that guy, which was so Pearl Jam community stuff.
Speaker: You know, it just, it was yeah very, very cool. So even though the concert was not their best, it was just really, really the best, but there are so many of their concerts where every time I let, I was like, I didn't want it to be over. You know, it's, you've been there for hours. You didn't want it to be over. So.
Speaker: Yeah. We'd go tomorrow if there was one. So, yeah. Well, I think one of the best ways to help navigate grief is music. And so hopefully you will all see the connection. Patty, thank you so much ah for being a part of this and really just a part of my life.
Speaker: um ah Well, well, ah yeah we and out Will you cut that part, Sarah? like go long oh But anyway, thank thank you for joining us, Patty.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: Thanks for listening. And just to cover all our bases about what you just heard, I'm sorry and you're welcome. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode and tell your friends about us.
Speaker: We do webinars and live events. The best way to stay up to date is to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube. Links are in the show notes.
Speaker: If there's a topic you'd like us to cover, maybe you have a question you'd like us to answer, or maybe you just want to say hi, hit the link in the show notes or go to birch-law.com forward slash podcast and fill out the contact form.
Speaker: Much better. Yeah, I thought that had a lot of energy.
