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Episode 24 - Tash Hoffman, Talent Manager at ComX
31 Plays1 year ago
This week Sade is joined by Tash Hoffman, Talent Manager at ComX. In this episode, they discuss why having a voice is important for a woman when working in a male-dominated space. They chat about how it is vital for those working in the TA space to be the cheerleaders of diversity.
Tash shares her thoughts on what motherhood looks like for the working world in 2023 and the immense pressure women put themselves under to be perfect and do things correctly all the time.
With this in mind, they discuss what companies can do to improve the working world for women and parents in general.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to yet again another episode of Women Talk Tech.
Women's Voice in Talent Acquisition
00:00:19
Speaker
Today, I'm joined by Tash Hoffman, Talent Manager at ComX. In this episode, Tash and I discuss why having a voice is important as a woman when working in a male-dominated space. Now, we use the term gatekeeper all the time, and those working in the TA space often get called gatekeepers to protect the team, but also as gatekeepers for talent as well. So Tash shares her thoughts on why it's important to use your voice, speak up, and be the cheerleader of diversity when working in the TA space.
00:00:43
Speaker
As a mother also, Tash shares her thoughts on what motherhood looks like for the working world in 2023 and the immense pressure women put themselves under to be perfect and do things correctly all the time. With this in mind, we discuss what companies can do to improve the working world for women and parents in general.
Career Path and Transitions
00:01:00
Speaker
So Tash, tell me a little bit more about yourself. Sounds good. Well, thank you so much for having me. And I'm very excited about this topic as well.
00:01:09
Speaker
I am first and foremost a mum. And so this conversation around women in the workplace, women in tech, and women, mothers working as well is very exciting for me. But my career and my job, I'm currently a talent manager. So I head up all of the recruiting for our company and our company being a SaaS platform. But we're also in sales specifically.
00:01:39
Speaker
both in the forefront of sales and in tech. And yeah, it's quite a fun place to be in at the moment, especially in Europe. But my career is I studied in the US, grew up in South Africa, I studied in the US. And then I went into marketing and I've been in marketing and sales in different roles throughout the years. I had a couple of my own startups that I started.
00:02:04
Speaker
Some networks, I feel like one of my strengths is being able to connect people. And funny enough, in looking back at my career for this topic specifically, one of my most fun ventures was the mompreneurs group. It was a networking network for moms so that they can come together, work and still network with other moms in the industry.
00:02:30
Speaker
And yeah, and then in the last couple of years, I found myself moving towards from marketing and from sales towards recruiting.
Breaking Stereotypes in Tech Sales
00:02:37
Speaker
I never did any formal training. My education was in psychology, which I think comes in handy in most careers. But I had no formal training and recruitment.
00:02:50
Speaker
landed up in an industry during COVID where we just boomed online fitness company. And so I found myself having to grow a team of from 14 to over 100. And we had to hire quite quickly for tech, for coaching for a variety of different roles. So I myself ended up focusing on recruiting for the people.
00:03:16
Speaker
And it's through that that I got hit hunted for my current role to help with recruiting in all the different roles within our company. And so yeah, so that's what I currently do. Nice, nice. And I'm sure, you know, in a sales tech company, it's very male dominated as well. So you've kind of bought the world of sales combined with the world of tech. So I can imagine it being extremely, extremely male dominated there.
00:03:41
Speaker
Yeah, and it's funny because I feel like that's one of the main focuses that our company is trying to break and the stereotypes. Our head of engineering is very, very keen on making sure that we get some women on the team. And then we also in our sales team specifically have one of our sales team lead is a very strong woman. She's one of the strongest in our sales.
00:04:07
Speaker
And some of the young women that have joined the team have actually shown that, you know, those stereotypes about male strength and the pushiness or whatever it is that's stereotypical of sales, they're trying to break that to show that, you know, your strength as a woman and your voice matters and that there's a place for us.
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what's really, really important about this entire topic. No matter what industry, no matter what space you're in, it's just having a voice. And I think that's what I'm really, really keen to discuss with you today. I guess from your side and in your industry and your career, why do you feel like having a voice is particularly important and how have you benefited from using it, so to speak?
Challenging Gender Roles and Stereotypes
00:04:49
Speaker
Well, that's a very loaded question. And I think, you know, as women, we all know and may, you know, hopefully not everyone has experienced all the different pressures, but I think most of us know that there are so many pressures that's put on you as a woman. Yeah.
00:05:10
Speaker
voice gets taken out of context and there is language and rhetoric that's associated with women that is not associated ever with men. And I think that that makes it even more important for us to be able to have a voice so that we can have a seat at the table for a lack of a better term. And when you asked me this question, I immediately thought of a recent event
00:05:36
Speaker
um I wasn't there so I don't want to you know um do it disjustice I don't know if injustice but the the topic was uh gender and diversity in the workplace and it was a HR event and we had a gentleman that stood up and he said well let's face it there are some rules that men are just better at
00:05:59
Speaker
And like I said, I wasn't at the event, so I have to be careful how I represent this, but it just recently happened. And I just thought, wow, you know, it still is something that people are talking about and saying.
Promoting Inclusive Culture
00:06:13
Speaker
And so it's really important for us to have a voice so that we can, you know, dispel some of these stereotypes and make sure that we represent our strength and what we have to offer well.
00:06:23
Speaker
And it's not about a movement of any sort. It's just about what's right and to make sure that women have a voice so that they can represent and that decisions that are made that impact them, they get to contribute towards the decisions as well.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I think we're in a space where we are progressing so much and I think so much is happening for the good, but you still hear so many stories about these sorts of comments. I speak to founders all the time and I've heard very similar comments like that, or why don't you just have a male co-founder? You're much better at funding if you do that. So yeah, there's very much a lot of progress but still a lot of work to do and you can tell that by all the comments that are still being made. So yeah, it's crazy. I still can't believe it.
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, I know. And I think that that, you know, you can either let it defeat you or you can give up or you can actually just be part of the solution to show why it's so important and not in an aggressive way, not in a, you know, trying to make a point, but actually just by dispelling all the different stereotypes and showing the truth.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
Bias-Free Recruitment Strategies
00:07:35
Speaker
And you mentioned that comics, you've never really thought that you didn't have a seat at the table and you've always been able to use your voice, which is amazing, but also very much quite rare, especially in the industry you're in. Why do you think this is and kind of what's different about, say, your company compared to maybe other experiences other women have had? That's a very good question. And I think it has to do with the people
00:08:00
Speaker
Um, you know, I think there's an intentional movement within the entire team from the top down that, uh, women have a voice. I'm so sorry. I'm going to just turn that off. All right. I'll answer that one for you again.
00:08:18
Speaker
Um, I think it's a very interesting question and I think it has to do with the team and the people that's a part of the team. Um, there's a movement from the top down, um, for, from the leadership down that every voice matters and, you know, your, um, topic of diversity in general, um, and you know, that goes so much further than just your, your gender.
00:08:41
Speaker
And I think that that is something that is so valid at comics is that we really make an effort and from the top down the leadership to make sure that everybody's voice is heard. And so yes, I think that's why there's also an open culture. So when we're in a meeting, you know, there's there's
00:09:01
Speaker
Very rarely, I mean, it's not a perfect environment, you know, no company is, so let's not paint the illusion. But very rarely do you get cut off, or very rarely does your point not, you know, get to be completed. So you get to say your full statement and then say why you think what you think. But we very also highly value making sure that we don't put emotions first, it's facts, data, and then we make decisions based on that.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's quite interesting because you said very facts and database and not emotions. How do you describe that and how do you, I guess, give an example of how a decision has been made that hasn't used emotion. That's a very good one. I see being in recruiting, there is a gut feeling that some people have in the business. I have a gut feeling about people.
00:10:00
Speaker
Um, but I can't make my decision based on my emotions about someone. I have to back it up with data. And so in my recruitment process, the way that I've built it with our team, because there have been decisions that were made where people are like, Nope, you know, this is a gut feeling. We can't, um, you know, make this decision. Um, but now in our recruitment process, we're very clear and we say, we need to give three reasons why we don't think that this is a good decision for us as a team.
00:10:29
Speaker
And they need to be factual. They can't be gut. They can't be abstract. And so your gut might be that someone would not be a great fit for the team, but then we need to actually say why, because their way of speaking would be.
00:10:43
Speaker
aggressive towards the rest of the team or that their skill set is not necessarily matching exactly what we're looking for. There has to be facts that's attached to it. It can't be just based on your gut. As who I am, that was something that I had to check myself on as well to make sure that I made the right choices.
00:11:10
Speaker
I think I still bring my guts into it, but it really is important that we have data that backs it up so that we don't make a decision that's not for the best for everybody involved.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah yeah I'm sitting here laughing because there's been so many times as a recruiter that I've been working with a company and that excuse where I just don't feel like they're going to be a great fit it's like you don't feel or are they not going to be a great fit based on something else and I do agree especially when we are trying to discriminate or not discriminate in terms of that we're trying to kind of eliminate the bias we have to get rid of the emotion behind the decisions that are made and it has to be
00:11:46
Speaker
not just I feel that they're not going to be a great fit, they don't have this, this, this and that and that's why factory they're not going to be a great fit. So I definitely see the benefit of that for sure. That's right and I think you know it's hard as a as a woman in recruiting and when we're trying to like if we're talking now about recruiting in tech sometimes my bias is that I want to give I want to give a girl a chance you know I want to back her
00:12:07
Speaker
But at the end of the day, we have to go back to what is required for the role and to make sure that, you know, she has what it takes as well, not just in who she is, but her skills
Balancing Diversity and Team Cohesion
00:12:19
Speaker
as well. But it goes both ways. Sometimes we have someone with the skills and then, you know, they're not the person either. So that hiring needs to be holistic, the entire person, who they are, what they bring, what they offer, their skill set.
00:12:34
Speaker
And I think that's what makes diversity so fun because you get to bring in some really cool voices into the conversation.
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, because I was going to say it does go both ways, right? You know, I'm the same. I always want to give people a chance, especially when you are trying to improve diversity of the team. And that sometimes does mean giving someone a chance. It may not have all aspects of the requirements, but they have to have the skills to do the job and you can't just hire because they're a female. And that's what I hate, right? I don't just want to say yes to someone because they're a female and they're going to add a number. That's not what we want to do because it doesn't really change anything.
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah. And I think sometimes we find the right people and they don't have the skillset. Um, so then we have to measure with the people that they're going to be working with. Cause it's one thing for me to say like, oh, then they would be an incredible addition to our team, but whoever's going to manage them and lead them has to be able to put in the work and time that it requires to get them upskilled as well. And so we, we have, there has been decisions where we've gone like, you know what, this person's epic.
00:13:38
Speaker
They are incredible. Let's put in the time and effort that's required. Let's put them on the class course, whatever it is, so that they can learn what they need to. But then also, let's give them a buddy within the team that's going to help support them.
00:13:53
Speaker
So it's not impossible to hire people based on their personality only and like basic skills. I feel like it needs to be wet cement. Like you need to have a little bit of foundational, you know, and then we can like help mold it into the right place. But yeah, that's where, you know, if someone hasn't been given an opportunity in other companies, maybe based on their gender, maybe based on whatever it is, the discrimination that they face.
00:14:20
Speaker
we can actually help give that boost in their career and a career title that's actually going to help them as well.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I guess in your role, I'm sure you are acting, we hear the word gatekeeper all the time, right? And it works both ways. It works even from a protection point of view, but also just from an actual gatekeeper point of view. And I think your role and many people in the kind of TA team, they are the gatekeepers. They are protecting the team. They are making sure that anyone that comes in the team does not disrupt what kind of is going on already. So I guess from your side, and I'm sure there will be many other kind of talent acquisition women listening to the podcast.
00:14:58
Speaker
Why do you think it's important for women to kind of use their voices, speak up, protect the team, which is of course the main thing, but also still somewhat be a cheerleader for diversity? How does that work? Yeah, that's a loaded question, Sade. I think, I mean, there's two sides to it, like you said. So if I'm looking for a position within a company as a woman,
00:15:28
Speaker
And I maybe, you know, feel like I'm competing against the masses. Using your voice would be, and this is now coming from the recruiter and, you know, the gatekeeper, I guess, like you said. From our side, we would love to see a cover letter that just very briefly, not like a long essay, just a very quick little thing tells us a little bit about who you are, a CV that is concise and to the point, but also like easy to read and interesting.
00:15:57
Speaker
So I think that, you know, people discredit how important their cover letter and their CV is for those first initial impressions. And I think, you know, don't lose your personality, but also keep it professional. Like try to make sure that it's easy, not distracting and engaging. But there's another element that I think that people sometimes forget. You have experiences throughout your life that doesn't necessarily come up on LinkedIn.
00:16:28
Speaker
Make a little section on your CV that says who you are and what you've done, whether it's volunteer work, whether it is a high school project that you did, whatever it is that is a part of your DNA that wouldn't necessarily be listed on a LinkedIn profile. Put it very concisely, please, not 10 pages again, because I think then people all seem to be like, okay. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. So if you can concisely put something down that shows your personality,
00:16:57
Speaker
that goes back to that gut feeling about someone. If you had experiences with other cultures, you know, and whatever it is, when you show your own diversity as well and what you've got to offer to the team, I think that makes you appealing as well.
00:17:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess from your point of view as well, as the gatekeeper for your own team, why is it important and why is it important for so many other gatekeepers as such to really speak up and use their voice, protect the team, but also still very much be aware of that diversity? Because I think there's a thin line between not laying anyone in in that respect, but also still being a voice for diversity and actually pushing people in that could bring a different perspective to the team.
00:17:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, again, it goes back to that loaded topic of what is diversity because diversity could mean so many different things. You know, in our case, like we, you know, you look at it in the context of which country you're working in and which country your offices are. And like, what is diversity in your context? You know, so for some it's race, for some it's gender, religion, beliefs, like so many different things, sexuality, identity, like it just goes on and on and on.
00:18:11
Speaker
And at the end of the day, seeing the person for the person, seeing them for who they are as a whole and not trying to break them down by checkboxes, like do they match a certain checkbox?
Women’s Contributions in the Workplace
00:18:25
Speaker
But if I see someone who is transgender, who has fought this battle to find their identity and have this incredible career CV that goes along with it,
00:18:37
Speaker
I am going to call up the hiring manager directly and say, I feel like you need to look at this person because of the team city that they have, what they faced, what they've gone through. It shows grit. There's so much that is a part of the individual as a whole, not just their transgender. So I think that's where I can play a role and my team plays a role is that we fight for people for who they are and not just for the check boxes and what they,
00:19:06
Speaker
What they check off and I think that's also part of our process here is that we do have a meeting with me or my teammate. We do a check because we do a cultural read on the person like can I actually connect with you, you know, like, is there more to the paper in your CV.
00:19:24
Speaker
And that's an important one as well. And I must say it's very, very hard not to connect with me. So there is very little that, you know, would not pass through. But I think it's the same time as also we have to make sure that we protect the team as a whole and that people will be able to work together in their teams.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I guess, you know, in using our voice and having a voice, it's important to kind of use it, like I just said. So I think why, I mean, what's the advantages and maybe from your experience as well, what do you think are some of the advantages that companies may not see that they should see from actually listening to more women? Ooh. Wow. I feel like I need to be careful not to stereotype women as well.
00:20:14
Speaker
I think that as women, there is intuitively some elements that make us who we are in our way of looking at life and instincts and things that can be learned, but it's really intrinsic in who we are. And I guess that goes to that identity thing that we were talking about before, but it's also such a huge scale because women are
00:20:41
Speaker
It's just one element of being a woman. So can I use my example rather than trying to generalize? Because I feel like it would be unfair to all women everywhere. But in my experience, I have a strong maternal instinct. And so whether it is something that I grew up with or something that was trained in me or something that I was born with, I don't know. But I have a strong maternal instinct.
00:21:09
Speaker
And so I am very protective of people coming into our fold. And when I mean that it's like the minute that they submit an application with us, I'm protective of them. I want to make sure that they're taken care of, that they're treated with respect, that they're seen for who they are rather than just paper.
00:21:28
Speaker
And so that's the one thing that I think I have brought to the team and to the way that we look at our whole recruitment into our company. But also, I'm part of an HR team that I bring that element into our people ops in our team as well, in the way that we help our team to make sure that if there is a, recently we had a taxi strike in Cape Town, to just think about like, how does that,
00:21:56
Speaker
affect the everyday person within our team that we make sure that we check in with them and are they doing okay, you know, like is, are the moms, you know, able to work because their kids are at home, like just things like that, that I think
00:22:11
Speaker
intrinsically I think of, or that I can bring to the table that maybe, you know, like if you didn't have that, or if you didn't have that wiring, um, it wouldn't even come to mind. And so I think that that brings that care and, um, you know, wholeness to a team that we're not just tasks, but we're actually people and it's people and tasks are always in this balance because if we just task driven, we lose the people and we lose them in our team.
Improving Workplaces for Women
00:22:38
Speaker
If we're just people driven, we don't get anything done. So it's the balance of both that's so super important. And yeah, I think that that would, what I would say for me personally, that's what I feel I bring to the team. But again, there's so many different elements to what makes a woman and what is a woman's voice. So my advice to anyone listening is find what that thing is and who you are and what makes you who you are and then lean in for a lack of a better term.
00:23:08
Speaker
leaning on Sheryl Sandberg's book there, but lean into the conversation and don't shy away from speaking up and saying, hey, I feel like this is something that we should pay attention to and back it up with data. Then you're
00:23:23
Speaker
very rarely not going to be heard. I'm glad you said that, I'm glad you said you know you're speaking on behalf of yourself because I think it's really important to to highlight not all women are going to want exactly the same things or are going to say the exact same thing so it's really important to be able to listen to all women and all people in general I think that's the benefit of having a diverse team and a diverse company that you can listen to different perspectives
00:23:47
Speaker
and you can be really open and you can then learn from so many people, right? I think that's what's really important when actually using your voice is you're able to learn from having so many different opinions there. Yeah, exactly. That's the key is listening. I mean, obviously we have in our company and in any company you need like a dominating guideline, this is where we're going and using your voice to the betterment of where we're going because if we
00:24:14
Speaker
We put up our hand and we say like, I feel like we should do this and it's not in line with where we're going. Then you're actually watering down the efforts of what the company's mission is. So make sure that your plan, idea, suggestion is in line with where you're going. And as long as it benefits everyone and not just a few.
00:24:36
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I guess what changes do you think we can make to improve the workplace to allow women to be able to feel comfortable to use their voice? Because I think it's important, right, that not all environments will be the same and not all women will feel comfortable to say anything or use their voice. So, you know, maybe just very simply and kind of from your experience, what changes do you think companies should consider making that will allow women to use their voices more?
Balancing Motherhood and Career
00:25:03
Speaker
I think it's the RACA model.
00:25:05
Speaker
uh, for communication. If you follow this structure in your, um, day-to-day communications in team meetings, then it doesn't matter who you are. You will have an opportunity to speak your voice and to, um, you know, speak up. And so as a manager, maybe I can challenge you to say, listen for everyone. Uh, don't let the dominating voices dominate every time.
00:25:30
Speaker
give everybody an opportunity to speak and follow this model, the RACA model, to make sure that you give everybody an opportunity to speak, that everybody has a turn, but at the same time that there's proper listening that's happening as well. And I'll find that
00:25:48
Speaker
link for you so that you can share that if you need to. Definitely definitely and yeah Tash one topic which I was really keen on discussing today was motherhood and motherhood in the working world because I think it's really important to I guess talk about it more I don't think we talk about motherhood and the and I guess how to do the working world
00:26:10
Speaker
I guess like that, you know, I don't have any children yet myself, but the thought of having a family and also carrying out a career is quite intimidating. And I don't know how, honestly, I don't know how anyone manages to do both because it is quite scary and it can be quite a lot. So, yeah, I mean, from your experience and kind of what you know, what does motherhood look like for mothers in the working world in 2023? Like, what is it like? It's it's so
00:26:38
Speaker
tricky these days as well because they had to work from home and so many of us are faced with it was before COVID and if you didn't work from home you know it was leave the house leave all of the responsibilities at home and then go to the office and then come back and then the responsibilities are piled up. In 2023 there is a fine balance between am I mom
00:27:08
Speaker
Or am I a working mom? And choosing actually that, you know, am I going to be mom first? And then my work defines the rest of what I do with the rest of the time that I have or the other way around. Am I work first? And I just happen to be a mom. And so I think that depends how your day looks. If you are work first and I am first to say, no mother should ever judge any other mother and no one should judge a mother in general because
00:27:37
Speaker
I think everyone's just trying to do their very best. But if you are working first and being a mother is just part of who you are, it's just one of the things that you have accomplished or done, or I don't know how to phrase it other than it's just something that is a part of who you are,
00:27:55
Speaker
at you can then choose that quality over quantity. And I think that that was the base advice someone gave me years ago when I didn't have the freedom that I do now is that, you know, if you look at, you know, all the hours that I'm not spending with my kids and ringing yourself, you know, through the ringer because you feel so guilty, choose your job. If that's what you choose, do that. And then
00:28:23
Speaker
put the support in place for your children that they need so that they can thrive, but then make quality time for them and make that quality like, you know, whatever it is, if it's the evenings or if it's afternoon time that you want with them or whatever it is, make sure that that is what you focus on and not how many hours you've lost, but actually the quality that you're doing with them. And it changes your world because immediately that guilt falls away because you're focusing on building relationships with them and
00:28:53
Speaker
pouring quality into their lives rather than feeling like, I've dropped the ball here, I've failed there. And then on the other flip side, if you were privileged enough to have an opportunity where you can choose to be mom first and then have a career on the side, make sure that you build in structures for yourself in place. Make sure you put structures in place for yourself.
00:29:20
Speaker
Because everything will bleed over. And especially in this post COVID world where we're faced with all the tasks of washing and home and all the rest that comes along with it as well, make sure that you put structures in place for yourself where you can say, OK, this is my family time. This is my work time. And this is dedicated time. Because at the end of the day, as long as you are able to deliver on your job
00:29:50
Speaker
The conversations with employers these days is changing to quality as well over quantity of how many hours you're putting in. Like, are you putting out the efforts and, you know, are you delivering? Then you can have a conversation with them to say, like, I'd like to start a little bit later because I want to make sure I get my kids off to school fine, or I'm going to finish a little earlier, whatever it is. And I think that that is the important thing, is setting yourself up for success by making sure you have structures in place.
00:30:21
Speaker
Maybe you can talk to others about expectations because I think the problem comes in when we have this guilt, constant guilt, and we're trying to have our employers solve it for us where we're like, oh, you know, I need to be with my kids more. Decide what you're going to do, how you're going to thrive in your career, and then you can have the conversations with them.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yeah. And on that topic of mumgill, I hear that word all the time and I'm now 25 years old. I still hear my mum talk about mumgill. And I'm like, mum, I'm an adult. There's no way you should be having this. Like, I just don't get it. But I get that it does kind of come, no matter how old your child is, there is that kind of feeling of not doing enough or how can you do more. How have you kind of dealt with mumgill in relation to work? And I guess, yeah, how have you found it?
00:31:10
Speaker
Okay, so I'm looking at something for quickly because I want to share this with you. It's a meme, so give me one second. We can cut around this. I can't find it now, but I'm just going to try and add a little. So your mom saying that she's facing this guilt, I just find it so hilarious because you're right, like moms everywhere, it doesn't matter how old your children are, are dealing with
00:31:38
Speaker
this guilt of did I do enough and I think that has to come with society because you know if you look at moms in the 80s if your kids were well fed
00:31:47
Speaker
if they were doing okay in school, and if they were reasonably well-behaved, then you were rocking it as a mom. But now, these days, are your children eating organic? Are they limited screen time? Are you working full-time, but you're also looking amazing, and your house is a Pinterest perfect house, and all these other things that are put on mothers these days. And so I think there comes a point where you have to decide what is most important to you,
00:32:16
Speaker
Is it going to be having the Pinterest perfect house and that your career funds that? Fantastic, well done for you. But at the same time, I think we also need to cut ourselves some slack because there is no perfect. And you need to roll with the punches and go through the phases in your life and in your career and to say, okay, so in this phase, I really need to put in a lot of hard yards into my company. I need to work some extra hours
00:32:43
Speaker
then make sure that you communicate with your family to say, this is what I'm doing. I want to make sure that everybody understands and supports me so that I can be able to do this. And that helps a lot with the guilt because then you're not feeling like you're letting people down. You've actually made sure you communicate it. You've effectively planned and then rolling out a plan that is closer to what you want.
00:33:13
Speaker
There is never going to be a perfect plan. And I think that that's something that really releases a lot of pressure for us when we let go of the perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I say to mum all the time, like, how could you be so fearless? But I do get it right. It's a constant, until I guess you stop becoming a mum, which I'm sure you won't. You know, it's all that constant feeling of, have I done enough? Are they okay?
00:33:36
Speaker
And I think, yeah, they're kind of working and even the kind of ideal, not ideal mum, but mum now has, you know, like you said, are they eating organic? Have they got oat milk? Have they got soy milk? Like there's so much now that you have to think about when you go on social media. And it's just, it's a lot to deal with so I can see how much it can really affect people. Exactly. And I think that that's the thing we have to be mindful of is to be very careful of social media, like you said.
00:34:02
Speaker
because there's a lot on social media that will tell us what the ideal is as well. And we have to decide what is the ideal for us and what is it that we want for our kids and for our families and for ourselves as well. Because I think that's another danger that so many of us, you know, working moms fall into is that we put our careers first, we put our families first and our kids first. And at the end of the day, we actually have very little time for ourselves.
00:34:29
Speaker
but also goes back to that planning your day and making sure that you plan time in for you into your schedule. And that takes care of some of the guilt as well. Going back to that oxygen mask analogy, you know, that moms are so often busy putting on everyone else's oxygen masks, but they're suffocating. And so put on your oxygen mask, make sure that you get exercise or yoga or meditation or whatever it is that's going to fill
Flexible Work for Parents
00:34:56
Speaker
you up.
00:34:56
Speaker
so that you can fill up others and be impactful in your work as well. Yeah, yeah.
00:35:05
Speaker
And from your point of view, what can companies do to improve the working world for women and parents in general? I think let's be mindful that being a parent isn't just for women to do. It's a family. It's all one. So yeah, I mean, what do you think companies can do to kind of make the working world more parent friendly, should I say? That's a really good question. And I think that this is something that, you know,
00:35:35
Speaker
In the last couple of years, we've made massive strides by allowing people flexible working hours and flexible working space as well. You take off a lot of pressure from people when they're able to choose to work from home very often because they can quickly do a couple of things around the house instead of commuting. Commuting time actually choose away so much of your personal time or you can get a workout in or things that you wouldn't necessarily be able to do otherwise.
00:36:03
Speaker
or quality time with your kids as well because you don't have to rush off to a city an hour away. So that's the first thing is flexible working hours and also focus on outputs rather than hours and also outputs and allowing you to work in whatever context or setting that is best for you. So for example, something that we follow is the new work philosophy.
00:36:32
Speaker
And the way that we play it out is it's freedom with responsibility. So you have the freedom to choose where you want to work. Is that from home? Is it from the office? You know, is it from a co-working space somewhere? That's your freedom. Add a little bit in there of like, you know, work-cation freedom as well. So people can choose the location so that they can get refreshed at the same time as working, which is also revolutionary to think about it that way. And then, you know,
00:36:59
Speaker
flexible in the hours as well. So yes, of course, like there are certain hours that we need during our general working hours that we need to relate to, you know, business hours. So if it is for team members to be able to have team meetings or if it is for meeting with a client or, you know, in our case, it's with a prospective applicant.
00:37:18
Speaker
There's certain hours that's just going to be better for them. But if someone is able to get up early in the morning and get a whole bunch of work done before the business hours, or if they prefer to do admin in the evening, give them the choice.
00:37:34
Speaker
I think that that is something that has been life-changing for me personally because by having that choice, I build my day and structure my day that when you and I are done here, I go pick up my kids and I can actually spend time watching them at their sports games. And then I come home and I do work again and I'm able to then be with them for dinner time. So for me personally, that's really changed the way that I work because I can then do my admin
00:38:01
Speaker
if there is any admin left over because if i was so productive during the hours that i did have and then i can do it in the evening but it's my choices no one like. Writing down and micromanaging how many hours i've actually put in so i think that that's the key is helping people choose how they can deliver the best and we need to move away from this industrial business our mindset.
00:38:27
Speaker
if your job allows for that obviously there are some that are time-driven. Yeah but I think it's important to bear in mind that the benefit of flexible working and how much of an impact that really does have on families because I think we've moved into this kind of flexible working world and it's benefited so many people that we tend to forget what it was like beforehand and I'm so guilty of that as well myself. I have no children but I love going to the gym in the morning before work, I love having a bit of time after work with no commute and I think
00:38:55
Speaker
There's been so many benefits from the flexible working world that I think has benefited everyone, but especially parents. And I think that's the one thing we take away from the pandemic. As tragic as it was, I think it gave so many families a lot more time and freedom to actually be a family and spend time with their children. Absolutely. And I think it also put an emphasis on what we were missing. And I think that that's why there's such a big push and movement now for us to say, I don't want to lose out on this.
00:39:25
Speaker
And, you know, because of the working environment that we do have at comics specifically.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:39:33
Speaker
I get so many applications of people saying that they are being asked to come back to the office. And I think there's different reasons and regulations and reasoning for this. So not making anyone feel terrible for actually calling their employees back to the office, because I just recently saw that Zoom called back half of their employees to the office, the irony.
00:39:58
Speaker
you know that that all aside if you're able to to give people flexi even if it's like a few days a week you know that they can work from home or that they can choose their working hours i think it will make a huge impact in their productivity and i think you know we we underestimate going back to the mom guilt
00:40:17
Speaker
how much you think about your kids when you're unable to even be with them. And so if I was able to know like, this time I'm going to be with them back to that quality over quantity, and I can focus on them and not be distracted with work or feel like I have to respond to any Slack messages, if I'm going to be present with them.
00:40:38
Speaker
then my time at work is fully present as well because I don't have to worry about, um, am I going to get enough time? You know, I'm going to make that a good quality time. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing.
00:40:49
Speaker
Well, no, Tash, honestly, thank you so much for joining me. I know that I've got some hefty questions there. So yeah, thanks so much for joining me. And yeah, I really, really do help that companies can take a lot from this, especially on the topic of motherhood, because I think we don't talk about it enough. And I'm glad we were able to have this conversation and really highlight the importance companies do have in allowing their employees to be the best parents they can be, because the better parent they are, I'm sure the better person they are for you, because they don't have that kind of mum guilt. So yeah, I'm really excited for that topic to everyone to listen to it.
00:41:20
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me as well. And I mean, again, I hope that, you know, any anything I said here, people will know that I'm trying to represent myself best rather than.
00:41:32
Speaker
trying to speak up for all women or for all employers, because it's such a diverse, excuse the pun, but such a broad topic. And I hope that maybe someone can resonate with this specifically, but I don't think we should stop the conversation either. I think this should only start more conversations within companies and amongst us as women and parents in general.
00:42:04
Speaker
you