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International Women's Day Special with Nicola Breyer, Managing Director at Qwist
31 Plays10 months ago
In this celebratory Episode 30 on International Women's Day, Sade is joined by Nicola Breyer.
Nicola Breyer is Managing Director at Qwist Group, the leading independent European Open Banking platform provider, with key markets in DACH, Spain, and Portugal.
Prior to this, she was CEO of finleap connect and Qwist GmbH until the formation of the new Group, and Chief Growth Officer and Managing Director at OptioPay, an Open Banking Fin-/AdTech company, as well as in a leading growth and innovation role at PayPal in Europe. Nicola has over 25 years of experience in operating and advising businesses and has lived and worked in multiple countries in Europe and beyond.
Beyond her executive roles, Nicola not only holds board positions as part of her angel investments in for-profit social impact businesses (Vested Ltd. among others), supporting female founders, but also contributes her expertise to the solar energy company Wattz as board advisor. Furthermore, she serves as an advisor to social impact accelerators and funds such as Village Capital, Impact Shakers and Planet A Ventures.
Sade and Nicola discussed the current situation in the tech world. As we all know, there has been a massive shift in focus from top line growth to profitability over the last few years, so for many, navigating this time has been difficult. Nicola shares her insights on how to best manage companies and people in this time and how you can actually turn this around, despite it being completely out of our control.
They also discussed how this causes a decent amount of uncertainty for all, and of course, there are topics which add to this uncertainty for women that may not affect men as much, especially women in c-suite positions.
We hope you enjoy it!
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Transcript
Introduction and Celebration
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Women Talk Tech. Today is a special day, as not only are we celebrating episode 30, but it is also International Women's Day. And what a guest to share this celebratory episode with. I'm joined by Nicola Brewer, Managing Director at Quist, and honestly, I am so excited for you all to hear this episode.
00:00:33
Speaker
Nicola
Growth to Profitability in Tech
00:00:34
Speaker
and I discussed the current situation in the tech world as we all know there's been a massive shift in focus from top-line growth to profitability over the last few years so for many navigating this time has been difficult. Nicola shares her insights on how to best manage companies and people in this time and how you can actually turn this around despite it being completely out of our control.
00:00:54
Speaker
We discuss how this causes a decent amount of uncertainty for all. And of course, there are topics which can add to this uncertainty for women that may not affect men as much, especially women in C-suite positions. Honestly, I know you're going to love this conversation. So, Nicola, tell me a little bit more about yourself. Thanks a lot
Diversity and Inclusion in Business
00:01:11
Speaker
for having me on your podcast today. I'm Nicola. Christ is an open banking company based in Germany. We have operations in four countries, five countries, I have to say now.
00:01:23
Speaker
in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Portugal. And we handle very, very confidential data in a regulated and secure way for people who want to give others, for some whatever reason, access to their bank account data. Nice, nice, amazing. And I'm sure we'll kind of dive into this in the entire podcast, but just, you know, very personally, because of course, everyone's got their different story, right? And everyone's got their personal meaning. But what does DNI mean to you?
00:01:51
Speaker
Look, you know, I mean, this is my 27th year of working and I mean, there's the personal side of it and then there's the work side and I think what we're more interested here is the work side. And, you know, across many different countries and companies I've worked in and with and for over the many years
00:02:12
Speaker
I've seen so many different people contribute value and I think to me diversity and inclusion is not strictly a gender thing. More and more I particularly think that every voice in a company needs to be heard and that we need different perspectives to make sure
00:02:31
Speaker
that we get the best out of our business, the businesses we can. And that's not always the loudest voice. So for me, diversity and inclusion is obviously a good mix of gender, nationality, but also neurodiversity. So I think we need to give more voice to introverts, for example, because oftentimes, you know, they don't raise their voice and they have the most interesting things to contribute and say. So to me,
00:03:00
Speaker
really background as well. We tend to create solutions in our tech world for a wide range of target audience and we just need to make sure that we're not too narrow minded as to what we do. And in different situations, and we'll talk about this later, I think
00:03:20
Speaker
Different situations demand different people also to contribute and to make their mark. So to me, that's really diversity and inclusion and the inclusion part of it is really to give room and to lead every person, if possible, in the way that brings out the best of them.
00:03:40
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think we tend to look at diversity so narrow-mindedly and looking at just like men and women. And it's so much more than that. It's so much more than we can offer when we talk about the subject. And like you said, right, including different people from different areas in the same room as everyone else.
00:03:56
Speaker
But
Gender Equity in FinTech
00:03:57
Speaker
don't get me wrong, I'm wildly passionate about raising the percentage of women in tech, right? And in FinTech in particular, it's very, very small. And I think we're still under 20% of the total workforce in our FinTech environment, and not even to mention leaders who are women. And you know, that's bad, and it goes across the food chain from investors down to the actual operating companies.
00:04:23
Speaker
So we, you know, I'm very, very pleased that at Quist our number is about 38%. So we're already trying very hard to become more equitable in that sense. And, you know, you see my LinkedIn, I'm all over that topic. It's more than just gender and I completely agree with you.
00:04:41
Speaker
Yeah, amazing. And let's talk about it. Honestly, I've been dying to talk about this topic. I can't because I feel like I go on LinkedIn and like you, I want to speak about it so much. But of course, I wanted to be aware of how to talk about it in the best way possible without talking about all the bad things. But let's talk about it.
Challenges in Tech Industry 2023
00:04:57
Speaker
How would you describe what is going on? What's happening in the tech guard right now? Because it's crazy.
00:05:03
Speaker
Let's be honest. Well, let's put it that way. I think many of us were quite happy to see the back of 2023. It's been a strenuous and rough year for a lot of people. And I have different views on it in a way. So I think on the one hand, we sort of had it coming and everyone in the ecosystem is guilty of that. So the years 2020 and 21
00:05:27
Speaker
were crazy, especially in FinTech. And valuations went completely through the roof. People raised heaps of money on business models that were not always necessarily proven to be sustainable. And often, of course, you need to seed ideas. And we're still very, very bad in Europe just to give people money just to realize a just really crazy and fantastic idea. The US are much better at it. But at the same time, when a company evolves and you have no path
00:05:56
Speaker
to make it a sustainable business, then obviously everyone, including the investors, need to ask themselves, where is this going? And in a time where at some point, randomly, with everything that went on in the world, funding became ending. It was endless before. And all of a sudden, that faucet was closed. And everyone had to reinvent themselves and really, really step on the brakes oftentimes from fast top line growth and pure growth.
00:06:25
Speaker
to really looking at unit economics and turning the ship around to become more profitable. And that requires a very different business acumen and a very different sense of leadership than some
00:06:40
Speaker
oftentimes very young founders who are daring and courageous enough to realize their ideas bring with them. So I think that a lot of that correction and valuation has happened, which is probably healthy to a certain extent has happened now. I think there's still a number of companies that are going from bridge to bridge and are still looking for ongoing financing.
00:07:03
Speaker
We'll also see a tremendous wave of M&A, especially in the fintech world, but also in the tech world now. There's two new heroes being heralded in the sense of social impact, ESG, tech companies, as well as AI. Probably we can exclude those from that in their first way of hype funding.
00:07:25
Speaker
But everyone else, I think that the secondary market is going to continue to be strong and even stronger than in the past years, which will result in some slightly larger companies, which hopefully then can weather the storms that might be coming a bit better. So I think we've gone through that. But obviously it is transforming a company towards that is painful and is a lot of hard work and rolling up your sleeves.
Managing Uncertain Times
00:07:51
Speaker
and making some very tough decisions, not only about potentially reducing your workforce, but also looking at your business model, at your customer base, at your product set, at literally everything, your type of suppliers, your tools that you're using. And as you can hear, that's something we've done at Christ also.
00:08:15
Speaker
But yeah, so I think hopefully I'd say we're getting into slightly more reasonable and calmer waters where the businesses that deserve to continue to thrive can do that. And that's really my hope and also my appeal to investors to not lose courage entirely, especially for these companies and their most hard hit
00:08:38
Speaker
that are already in the growth trajectory. They've already got customers, they've got substantial revenue, sorry, but they're not quite profitable. And I think those are the ones that need some care and attention and work, but they also oftentimes have a reason for being.
00:08:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Honestly, I couldn't agree with more of what you said. I think the shift has turned from, honestly, an absolute increase in growth. Like I said, we are a recruitment company, right? So we were helping companies scale massively to now, of course, still helping them scale, just not in the same pace or size in what they were doing maybe two, three years ago.
00:09:20
Speaker
and now it's a different even sort of hiring right they're hiring for different sorts of people if they are hiring and they're prioritizing different things and like you said I think founders that are may not be as well equipped for this time are being forced into managing a company and people in this environment. I mean how would you suggest companies are managed in this change because I think it's
00:09:44
Speaker
It's tricky when you've come from where we were to where we are now and you're just not well, I don't think we're well equipped just yet. So there is a benefit to being old. People who listen to this can't see me, but I, you know, as I said, I've been around the block for over 20 years and I've seen various crises from, you know, the hype and then the downfall of the first generation of internet companies in 2002 today.
00:10:09
Speaker
And once you've done this, you've got the certainty that there is always continuation and their cycles. And you will come out at the other side, no matter how, but you will. So that gives you that sort of resilience that I think a lot of younger people are missing because they've only ever seen an economic upturn in our Western European world so far in their lives, in their total lives.
00:10:36
Speaker
you know, and in their careers. And all of a sudden, you know, there's war in different places. There is, you know, changes in our society. You've had Brexit, you know, there's the whole topic of migration and, you know, democracy potentially being at risk because of right wing movements everywhere. So we're, you know, all of a sudden, and then the economic situation,
00:11:04
Speaker
That doesn't give people a lot of things to grip on and it creates incredible uncertainty. In companies as well, when all of a sudden you're no longer going from the sales bell rings and rings and there's this rah-rah going on around.
00:11:25
Speaker
faster, stronger, higher, and more funding, more money, more lavish parties. I mean, the party is clearly over. And I think what you do in this situation is you try to give people some sort of structure.
00:11:41
Speaker
And you have to be quite honest with people. These are all smart in our tech world. We're all incredibly smart people and that's great. It's a fantastic working environment. But again, so I find that two different types of people. There are people who would like to contribute and they would like to know
00:12:01
Speaker
and to help you steer the ship into a new direction and they want to be part of it and they will get really motivated by helping you to solve problems and to find solutions. And then there are others who need more direction and they get even more uncertain when you give them sort of a problem to solve in this matter and they expect
00:12:22
Speaker
management and leadership to tell them, where are we going? What is my job? What is my job to be done so that I'm still successful? Do I need to be afraid? Will I keep my job?
Respectful Employee Treatment
00:12:37
Speaker
And you just need to be very straight with these people but also not create more noise in their heads.
00:12:43
Speaker
And those are the sort of two types of people. And unfortunately, you will always get it wrong for everyone in a way. So you can only try and communicate and communicate and communicate. And even if you think you've over communicated, it's not enough. So you need to be present, you need to have a clear vision of where you're going.
00:13:03
Speaker
not in the sort of next to sort of north star vision next at this point, because people just want to know what will happen this year, this quarter, this month. And if you tell them, you know, you've got OKRs, you've got targets, just put your head down and keep working on them.
00:13:20
Speaker
because it's the right thing to do. And then let me and let us figure some things out and we'll come back to you by X. Then you have to get back to them by that date. And I think that's usually a 90-day plan, a 100-day plan. Tell them we're going to talk about it next, then do this. And then after you've communicated something saying, look, we said we would do this. We've now done that.
00:13:46
Speaker
I think that's been a recipe that's at least led us to creating a bit more stability at Quist over the last 19 months since we've embarked on a journey of transformation and change and uncertainty because of outstanding funding requirements, et cetera, which thankfully are now solved. But I think
00:14:11
Speaker
Find those who want to contribute and shape and make sure you reach those who hide in uncertainty and make sure that you ask them what they need, but also just give them more structure and information and direction.
00:14:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, how you're describing it, it seems that you've done things the right way. Because I think when I've spoken with engineers and when I've spoken with people who have been affected, it feels like it's been a mass out of the blue. Like, oh my gosh, now it's just happened. Whereas I feel like, like you said, if you kind of walk people along the journey, granted, you might not want to tell your entire company every intricate detail about the finances. But I think like what you said, having a bit more transparency on what's going on
00:14:56
Speaker
Here's the plan for the next 90 to 100 days. If we don't manage to do this, this is what could happen. And it's being a bit more open about it because when I've been speaking with engineers, it feels like it's been, you're logged out now, you've been laid off literally within seconds. And it's like holding a sec, what could we have done to prevent that uncertainty or instability earlier on?
00:15:15
Speaker
Well, I think sometimes unfortunately when we lead a business, there's labor law and there's things that you unfortunately sometimes need to do. You may have to make unpopular choices.
00:15:30
Speaker
is important is, you know, as you said, so people not being able to log into their computer anymore. I mean, that's obviously not a human way of dealing with this. And sometimes, unfortunately, some decisions need to come out of the blue for certain people when it's not possible to share this. But at the same time, having, you know,
00:15:54
Speaker
Treating people as humans is something I think we can get much better at, at the workplace and treating people with respect. And I think then if you have to make such a decision, sit down with a person, you know, don't shy away from having courageous conversations and explain the situation as it is and accept that it's not going to be a good conversation, but you can make it, you can make a bad situation better
00:16:20
Speaker
if you keep the human element in it. And that will affect how that person feels, goes out into the working market, feels about themselves and potentially also still
00:16:34
Speaker
would like to come back if you're able to bring more people back on. And oftentimes we don't let people go because of their value to the company or the quality of their work, but because we have to restructure businesses to survive. And I think I find more and more, the older I get, it's not always the what you need to do and communicate and do.
00:17:01
Speaker
but really it is the how. And that can make a whole lot of difference to a lot of people. Totally, totally. And like you said, we've gone from a shift from spending a hell of a lot of money to now having to make a lot of money to survive. How would you describe your experience with this idea and how have you dealt with this at Quiz?
00:17:21
Speaker
I
Strategies for Profitability
00:17:22
Speaker
think it's an ongoing journey. I mean, we will hopefully turn profitable on an operating level within the year. However, I think it is two things, right? One more, but really two sides of the coin, unfortunately. It is looking at your cost space, really trying to assess every single cost line in your business. And it is, do I really need this? It's sort of the
00:17:48
Speaker
minimalist principle of your wardrobe that some people have, right? Is this something I will ever wear again this year? And then you will find in companies that are not completely new, which these companies never are. And in our case, there were a number of mergers, and so there is some legacy. And when you have money, you don't necessarily
00:18:08
Speaker
in the olden times sort of looked at that, running a tight ship. But looking really at what tools do you use? How many people use it? How much does it cost me? Can I replace it with something else? Can I renegotiate some contracts on the cost side? And then really looking at the effectiveness of the organization and really asking yourself, are we set up to do what we need to do in the best way?
00:18:35
Speaker
And, you know, do we have the right bombs in the right seats, so to speak as well?
00:18:40
Speaker
So I think being quite ruthless and again, I mean, we had to not have company parties for a whole 12 months. And that's a tough decision to make because if you have people in four countries, you want to bring them together and you want to celebrate successes, which even in a transformation happen, right? You need to make sure that people can continue to feel valued for their work, et cetera.
00:19:07
Speaker
but it is really the amalgamation and the accumulation of cost.
00:19:12
Speaker
in every single part of the business that can break the bank. So I think you have to be, you know, I'm very glad that I have a pretty ruthless, we have a pretty ruthless CFO at Quist and he's been an amazing sparing partner to put it in a more positive way and really has helped me as well in really being a lot more cost conscious. One side, but the way more important side is
00:19:41
Speaker
How are we going to make money? Do we know our customer profitability? Do we know which of our products really make money? Do we have a sustainable business model? Do we have too many one-off projects that may look nice from a revenue perspective, but if you look at the resources we need to deliver them and then those resources, those people and the time and everything put in doesn't create lasting value because it's a project and then it's gone and then
00:20:08
Speaker
you know, there's no ongoing revenue. So that's that's what we've done. We've gone from, you know, significant project revenue, and we've cut some business lines to really focusing on on a becoming and again, a SaaS company, which provides significant recurring revenue.
00:20:26
Speaker
That's also what investors would like to see. So it's important that you also know how you set up your business if you need to raise more money to be able to do that. And for that, it's also important to have open dialogue with your shareholders, but also with the market and to really be smart about the way you
00:20:46
Speaker
you put your scarce people and other resources to work so that they actually create the best outcome for the business. And I think the other thing is to be very realistic about timing.
00:21:01
Speaker
It always takes longer than you think, both in terms of, you know, cost cutting and restructuring is expensive. So usually you have a cost associated with that. So, you know, be aware of needing money to then save money.
00:21:17
Speaker
And the other thing is then on the revenue side, sales cycles, especially if you want to bring in more and new salespeople, that takes longer to onboard them. Don't expect that they'll be 100% effective from day one. They will have an efficiency increase. Build that into your revenue and forecasting models. Marketing, really look at
00:21:41
Speaker
what really does create leads in a B2B environment, and we're having that debate right now, is it really possible to create
00:21:51
Speaker
a lead generation machine through marketing or is it enterprise sales? What is your approach? Where do you put your money with what outcome? So I think, and then if you're very conscious about unit economics, so profitability at product level, at customer level, I think then those decisions become much more obvious. But what does all of that need? Really good business intelligence. So you need to oftentimes just go on a data hunt
00:22:19
Speaker
and then establish ways to really steer a company by data and by numbers, and not by gut feel. And I think anyone who starts a company, when it's small, you think you know everything, and usually that is the case. But once it grows, just be really, really conscious and disciplined about building a numbers-driven business that can give you answers to your questions.
00:22:45
Speaker
you know, ideally at the push of a button, but not having to go on fact finding and really working with assumptions and access sheets every time you need to assess something in your business.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And honestly, there's so much there to unpack, but you could say that is creating such a level of uncertainty in society in general, right? Because I think even all of what you said, there are probably so much parts or so many parts of that, which say me as the average employee doesn't yet understand how that works, or doesn't yet have a solution for all of that, or doesn't even know what to do tomorrow to even make sure things are
Culture of Transparency and Trust
00:23:25
Speaker
moving. You know, there's so much there.
00:23:27
Speaker
That level of uncertainty, honestly, is quite concerning, right? Because of course you see how that has affected society in general and employees and companies. I mean, how are you dealing with this? I guess you as a company, you as a person, but you can see how it's impacting everyone, right?
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah, so I think we've touched on this before, right? To give people structure, et cetera, a little bit. But in principle, I agree with you. The level of people feeling anxious, so the word anxiety in Germany, for example, that was never a thing. Now it's everywhere on Instagram and everywhere. It goes, oh, I'm so anxious. I have anxiety attacks.
00:24:04
Speaker
where does this come from all of a sudden, right? And I think it is because we are in a general upheaval and a shift change in our lives in general, but also let's not overdramaticize it. We're very much on the winning side. Let's not complain about things that really aren't there. So I think one is,
00:24:30
Speaker
to really, if you want to manage yourself, I think always asking yourself, am I creating something bigger out of something that's not there? I think the other thing is ask. If you don't know, don't always expect everyone to look at you and see you and say, well, they have to tell me, they have to know I have these questions. No, people don't usually. So open your mouth, raise your voice. For example, at Chris, we have an anonymous ask me anything.
00:24:58
Speaker
opportunity where every week people or every two weeks but every week people until a certain point can answer questions anonymously if they like or not anonymously and they will get answered in the next all hands and and we are very transparent about this we you know we we answer every single question
00:25:16
Speaker
We also sometimes say that we can't provide the full answer to something, but it is an opportunity and people use it. So I think as a company, that's what you can do. I also really enjoy working with OKRs. I know it is a very difficult topic and in fact, no one ever gets it perfectly right. But I found that it means, and then talking about these OKRs and talking about the achievement, I feel that every team in an OKR driven company should know
00:25:45
Speaker
what they need to do this quarter. And really I think if you know and if you keep telling people this is the right thing, you're doing the right thing for yourself and for us to be productive, then I think that's another thing.
00:26:04
Speaker
And then try and avoid water cooler talk. It's very, very tempting and seductive, right? Oh, something's going on. We don't know. You know, what do you think? You know, what do you think is going to happen? It is actually super, super toxic for everyone because it creates noise and no one can make that noise go away. And whilst it might be fun for a while, when everyone goes home,
00:26:26
Speaker
that those thoughts are lingering. And I'm not even saying it's malignant. I think it's people's nature to have those conversations. And they're fun sometimes, but it's not helpful. But at the same time, it depends on your level of trust to leadership.
00:26:45
Speaker
Yeah. If inherently you trust the people who have just, I see it a different role to fulfill. So my job is just a role, right? I'm not any, you know, maybe a little bit more experienced because of my CV and the stations I've sort of gone through in my life, but I have a job to do. And if I had a different job, I'd have a different role. But I think everyone has a role. And if you accept that and you
00:27:15
Speaker
you gain trust in the people who have the role of engaging the shareholders and the market and ensuring the stability and the long term success of the company with everyone then i think it's easier but if you have a culture of no trust.
00:27:34
Speaker
and a culture of non-transparency and not being able to speak up. I think that's where it gets difficult and I think having a healthy and human and authentic company culture is what will make companies and people more resilient in these times of uncertainty.
00:27:54
Speaker
if they then are really there. And let's not kid ourselves. We're still in an employee market. We all employ highly skilled people. We should also just try and not see our own little universes as
00:28:14
Speaker
you know, the end of everything and see opportunities that might be out there. Also, if something happens and if we have to look at new roles as an opportunity to ask ourselves, you know, is this also maybe a time for pivot for myself? Like, is there something else I might be able to do?
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah yeah and I guess that links on to like how different people deal with level of uncertainty right I think you know there's so many different aspects which come into it we have personality types we have emotions but of course we do have the natural thing which I know we don't like to speak about but gender you know how women deal with things how men deal with things I say it and I'm laughing as I speak because there's been so many situations where like
00:28:53
Speaker
I'll go to my parents, right, and I'll ask my mum one thing, and she'll give me one point of view, ask my dad, and I'm like, that is the same situation, but completely different ways of going about it, right? And, you know, it's there, you know, we see that women tend to lead and deal with things differently. I guess, how do you find that women lead in this time of uncertainty versus men, you know, considering your own experience? And I'm sure you've seen it, Christ.
00:29:21
Speaker
I'm completely biased on this. I'm a woman. I love working with women. I just think we just get on with shit. We just roll up our sleeves, we get things done. We're super pragmatic about a few things and we just
00:29:37
Speaker
Do it we don't always think is this the hundred percent perfect best thing but we just go okay people let's let's let's do this and we also i think oftentimes and i think let's not generalize but i feel in those situation we oftentimes put status politics.
00:29:57
Speaker
a negotiation behind us and we just go, okay, there's a job to be done. There's a problem to be solved. I can contribute to solving it. Let's do it. That's not always smart because you might then be seen as not fulfilling sort of your more strategic role of playing the storyline because you just get stuck
00:30:21
Speaker
knee deep in operational work. However, I feel that that is something that I very much enjoy in working with, you know, a lot of men, but more women, especially sort of if you, and maybe that goes back sort of to the tribe sort of culture in ancient times, I don't know, but I feel that that's one. I think the other thing is, we tend to be more open.
00:30:46
Speaker
I think we tend to share more of ourselves. We bring all of ourselves in general to the workplace because we identify hugely with what we do. And I'm not saying that men don't do that, but I think sometimes men have a slightly more healthy
00:31:04
Speaker
distance to work and they see it more of a transactional relationship. Not that they don't care about the quality of their work, but they kind of go, okay, this is my job. They can compartmentalize things a lot more. And that's why they then stay cooler, not get so emotional, where basically you go, how and why? No, I don't accept that. You don't
00:31:30
Speaker
you don't fight so hard and I think I'm trying to become much better at, in a healthy way, trying to be a little bit more distanced and really trying to say, okay, now I'm at work and in the evening I pick up my jacket and then it's personal Nicola and try
00:31:49
Speaker
try to also get more personal space in my brain, which then gets me more focused again on work. So I think those are different things. Sometimes I wish a lot more women had more of the very natural self-confidence that some men have.
00:32:09
Speaker
And you know, it's it's sort of the more of the, I know I'm good. So here, and you know, I'm great, rah rah, but sort of the alpha style, and without being arrogant, right. And I think if women had that a bit more than that confidence in themselves,
00:32:27
Speaker
they could rise even more and even further. Those are the sort of styles I see. Now, I think there was, women were a little bit of, and I've seen this, a bit of sort of the flavour of the month in leadership positions when those transformation phases come in.
00:32:46
Speaker
come up and because we are we get stuff done and we don't shy away from difficult situations where men look at it with their distance and go why would I expose myself to that I don't need to do this where we go there's something to rescue let me do it right let me get into all sorts of trouble because I feel I can I can I can rescue the world and I can get this done and
00:33:07
Speaker
And so, but I think at the moment when we have those times of change and uncertainty, it is again more sort of that directional leadership that is wanted and that confidence of saying, I'm really good, I can do this rather than the, well, there's a lot of stuff that needs to happen for this to work out.
00:33:28
Speaker
But it can work out. It's more of that calm confidence and that maybe slightly over promising way and more of a directional leadership that is that is wanted at the moment in this perceived time of uncertainty.
00:33:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I also think, I don't know if this, you can relate to this as well, but if there's an issue, I will try and fix it even though I may not be the best person for this job. And I'll just try and do it in the best way possible. Whereas I do think with like my male counterparts, they'll find a way to fix it without them doing it.
00:34:06
Speaker
How do I work out? Not in that way, but they'll find the better person to do the job, rather than them doing it themselves, even though they may not be the best person. Like you said, women tend to want to be the solution, they want to be the superhero, and it's fine to not be that person. It's fine to say, I'm not all quick for this. I can't help here, but I'm here if you need me. That sort of thing.
00:34:27
Speaker
Because if you take it on and then you don't get it exactly right, then you're basically getting criticized for it. And probably rightly so, right? In a certain way. So I think, and let's just also always make sure that there are men and women of all calibers and characters. But I think if I look across sort of my peer group, I think that's something that I see and discuss and
00:34:55
Speaker
openly sometimes admire in men, you know, who generally seem to have not a care in the world when when sort of the house is on fire, where women go, I can't sleep, you know, oh my God, this needs to end. And, you know, I think we can we can both learn from each other.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah, no, totally. It's always in the interest of diversity and inclusion, but I wish, I still think we need way more male allies in leadership and in also having an interest in this dialogue and to really want to embrace those differences and enjoy them and enjoy
00:35:36
Speaker
working with us women as peers, not as only as the sub-management or the lower management level, because we get so much done. No, totally, totally.
Challenges Facing Women
00:35:48
Speaker
And I guess what topics would you say affect women more than men that may add to this uncertainty? Because I think there's so much that goes on, right? But yeah, on your side, what topics do you think really affect or add to this uncertainty?
00:36:00
Speaker
Well, I think women in general, certainly in the time between age 20 and the mid 40s, there is the additional topic of family for a lot of women. And I think we're all trying to make workplaces more easy to navigate for women. I think we still have a long way to go of bringing women back
00:36:27
Speaker
at adequate levels and give them the thriving career when they come back to the workplace when having children. She had a child, well that child is still there.
00:36:43
Speaker
I love the idea and the concept of tandem work, tandem positions where two people share a job. I really like that and I've seen it work really well. I think companies get way more out of that one role when people share it. It's usually one and a half.
00:37:03
Speaker
For example, but let's also talk about that next phase. So, you know, mid-40s children are more independent generally, you know, and what happens then? Well, I think, you know, parents get older. So we go from one caregiver job to potentially another.
00:37:24
Speaker
no one talks about this and I'm increasingly talking about this because that is a much different relationship and usually there comes a time when either there's just one parent left or there's a significant health concern and it's impossible to switch this off when you're at work. Sometimes work really helps
00:37:45
Speaker
because you can focus but you oftentimes feel as guilty as you do when okay I need to pick up my child well I need to go to the hospital at certain hospital opening hours because I only have visiting time then and people think you're slacking off right and you don't want to talk about it as much but I think we have to recognize that there are different phases of people
00:38:07
Speaker
Who who have you know there's there's a life and life does something with us and it makes it who we are who we are makes us who we are yeah so that's another one and then the the other topic women have is is that we are different from men and i think we talked about this the other day i love.
00:38:23
Speaker
a fantastic Forbes article that just came out that says women are not small men. Well, we have different hormones, our whole body composition is different. And as we go through our life, you know, hormones drive us and and and they do tend to change in the second half of our lives. And that brings physical but also mental challenges with it and they are they're not fake and they really are affecting our
00:38:48
Speaker
our ability to deliver. And it is something, again, that you can do something about. And I think we need to support women a lot more to deal very, very hands-on and be very conscious of what's going on and then seek
00:39:07
Speaker
support in those shift changes which we're talking about perimenopause and menopause. Perimenopause can start as early as in your 30s and it lasts for a long, long time. So how do we support women in that way as well and how do we give
00:39:29
Speaker
you know, how do we not shy away from addressing women topics, so to speak? It's still this harsh thing of, you know, and I think we need to be recognizant of the fact that 50% of the world's population goes through this. I think, you know, still the time dedicated to the second phase of a woman's life, if you look at medical staff's education, it is ridiculous how little time is spent on that. That is gradually changing.
00:39:58
Speaker
But, you know, healthcare, but also the way we eat, what we eat, the way we need to work out more, we need to do more strength training. We need to give people more information and access to support. And then those symptoms are much more bearable and then therefore we can be way more productive in the workplace.
00:40:24
Speaker
Yeah. And like you said, right, this tends to marry up with those who are at that sort of C-suite position, right? They're at the kind of A game.
00:40:32
Speaker
They're in their career, they're in their stride, they're at the top where pressure is high as it is. When you've got hormones flying around your body, she wasn't aware of or you didn't know how to prepare for, right?
Women's Health in Leadership
00:40:43
Speaker
Actually the lack of, right? So they just start going away and then your whole balance goes completely out of the window. And that sort of partially fatigue, lack of sleep,
00:40:57
Speaker
So you fix your children, you start sleeping again, and then all of a sudden you lie awake at night, then your brain switches on, work switches in, and it is affecting all sorts of parts of your life. You put on weight, that really puts something on your confidence again. So I think what we need to do is to
00:41:22
Speaker
to not be like maybe our mothers. And my mother was never talked about it. She got her home on things, which was already quite a novel thing at this point in time. But I think a lot of generations of women have gone through this
00:41:39
Speaker
on their own and not realize that something could be done. And I think with more research and more money spent on research on female health, which slowly starts increasing and more voices on social media and in other parts that are recognizing that I think it's McKinsey found out that a trillion dollars could be added to the world economy if more investment was done
00:42:07
Speaker
in supporting women and female health.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah and like you said right I think speaking about it more and I think speaking about it more sooner I think we talk about it when we've been through it and not as we're going through it or before we're going through it and I think that's when that's where the mistake happens because then we go by ourselves we think no one else is also going through this because no one else is speaking about it which means we are all struggling alone and that's not how it should be or we we don't know what's going on right so we we think
00:42:37
Speaker
you know, I, you know, it's not the it's not only the standard hot flashes, it's all of a sudden, I mean, I have air tags on so many keys, because I start not literally forgetting stuff and having to run up because I forgot my phone or my purse or, you know, and and it's brain fog is real and and it's annoying because it does it does really affect you. And then
00:43:02
Speaker
when you get into those pressured and stressful situations, you're sometimes not as well equipped because you're tired, you're insecure because you don't know what's going on. So I think it all plays into this whole thing. And as you said, it hits us at a time where we should be thriving, and we should be increasingly, you know, women need to get into the C-suite, whatever, and then we get into that situation. And we feel
00:43:28
Speaker
not we're not sometimes women then feel don't feel up up to it up to the job which is not their fault and it's not weak and so yes big advocate for those topics and I'm glad to see that more and more female health startups get funding a lot of them are apps to track
00:43:47
Speaker
um you know um yourself um and and and and so I think it's um it's something that I feel men tend to cringe about very much um but it's also a generation shift I feel you know younger men are much more
00:44:05
Speaker
much more active fathers, young fathers, and they're much more interested in the not-standard male topics and the generation of women that are with these men.
00:44:20
Speaker
you know, they demand a lot more equitable conversation. And they're also most more self conscious, right? So I think we've still been, I've still been raised in the promise of, you know, shut up, get it done, don't talk about it, get it, do it, you know, and, you know, you don't feel well, well, you know, some other people are worse off than you, you know, it's just a cold. Yeah. And I think there are elements of that that are very healthy and good, not taking yourself too seriously all the time. But at the same time, I think
00:44:49
Speaker
there's a shift change going on in younger women who really are much more proud and much more sort of courageous to address what they want. Now, let's also make sure we are talking about a highly privileged bubble we're in. And I think the other thing that obviously needs to happen is support women in areas of our society, but also in countries where
00:45:20
Speaker
you know, their situation is not comparable to ours. And I think that's, we always need to know that we're a knowledge society, we have access to information, we have access to healthcare, there's money usually that we can spend on
00:45:35
Speaker
certain settlements, etc. So let's also make sure that we know that whilst we may say we need to optimize ourselves and we need to talk about these things more, that we're still at the very top end of the food chain in the sense of having all of that and valuing that we do. Yeah, yeah.
00:46:05
Speaker
And without getting too personal whatsoever, how are you finding this? How are you dealing with this? And I guess from your side, what advice would you give maybe to other women who are going through this time period in their life? They're at that C-suite position like yourself, and they may be thinking, what the hell is going on? How am I here? What am I doing? How am I going to get through this?
00:46:26
Speaker
has anything helped you personally that you'd say, you know, of course it's very different and it's very individual and of course what may have worked for you may not work for others, but yeah, what advice would you give to those who are maybe experiencing the same?
00:46:38
Speaker
I think we all know ourselves quite well. And I think we also have all of our coping mechanisms, right? So for me, for example, it used to be, you know, a lot of stress for a while will lock myself in for a weekend, withdraw, work out, you know, you know, not try to try to really decompress, but not just by slouching, but really
00:47:00
Speaker
um, you know, just, just centering myself again and, and, and, um, you know, um, and, and you want to lose weight while you start, have you have your sort of healthy eating regime when, when these things don't work anymore, when you find that the usual things you do to manage yourself for some reason, do not work anymore. Consider that this may have to do with a hormone imbalance and be very open and, and talk to your doctor about, um,
00:47:30
Speaker
getting a hormone test done. These things are done with women before they are pregnant, when they want to get pregnant, the moment is not about children anymore. No one will look at your hormone levels and measuring them quite early on because then you can see the change. If you don't have a base, it's hard to then go
00:47:52
Speaker
where they should be. And then there are certain supplements you can take. They're proven without taking medication. But really being conscious that this is something we need to address like any other health check.
00:48:09
Speaker
And then I think that's what I did probably a bit too late, because then I read literature about anti-inflammatory food, because that's also a really big problem. There are issues around bone density.
00:48:24
Speaker
muscle mass and all of this and it unfortunately requires discipline. I'm not the most disciplined person and so but I'm trying to do build habits around all of this and to then speak with others and address it. So I think again I think I would have
00:48:46
Speaker
wanted sort of that journey to start maybe in my late 30s already or my early 40s. Whereas now sort of over the last few years, I've really starting to gain become more conscious and become more educated and because I just didn't feel good anymore. I just didn't feel myself. That's what nearly every woman will tell you. I don't feel like myself anymore.
00:49:14
Speaker
I don't actually want to be 20 again, but we all want to have our 20 year old bodies again. But there's stuff that can be done when you feel that you're so tired that you can't get up or there's nothing you have energy to do anymore. You force yourself to get stuff done at work and then you completely collapse and have no interest in social life and no energy to work out.
00:49:40
Speaker
it probably won't go away entirely, right? But you can ease some of the symptoms. Yeah, yeah, amazing. Well, honestly, thank you so much for joining me. And I think it's really important that we spoke about this subject, spoke about the topic of women's health. And yeah, if it helps one, two, three people, I think it will be amazing. Fantastic. Thank you so much for the chat and I'll talk to you very soon.