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Episode 33 - Jenny Gaekel, HR Business Partner at Circunomics
47 Plays7 months ago
This week, Sade is joined by Jenny, who shares her own personal experience of moving to Germany. As a woman, she discussed how she found not only integrating into a new company, but country and working culture overall.
They spoke about how her experience has helped her to ensure others have a good experience moving to Germany. Jenny also shares what companies can do to ensure the working environment is inclusive for those not from Germany and what we can do to ensure they are integrated into the German culture and working world better.
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Transcript
Introduction and Jenny's Background
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to a new episode of Women Talk Tech. Today, I'm joined by Jenny, HR business partner at Circonomics, who came on to share her experience moving to Germany. As a woman, she shared how she found not only integrating into a new company, but country and working culture overall. We spoke about how her experience has helped her to ensure others have a good experience moving to Germany. Jenny also shares on what companies can do to ensure the working environment is inclusive for those not from Germany.
00:00:41
Speaker
and what we can do to ensure they are integrated into the German culture and working world better. I hope you loved this conversation as much as I did. So, yeah, Jenny, tell me a little bit more about yourself. Well, thank you for having me. Very excited. Lovely to see you again. Basically, I'm Jenny Gekko. I come from Honduras. I have like 15 to 20 years of experience in sales and marketing.
00:01:04
Speaker
And I moved to Germany 11 years ago because I wanted to see Germany as my ancestors came from Germany. So it was just behind my mind all the time. And I decided just to move here and see what it was all about. And I stayed. And you've pretty much been here ever since. I've been here ever since, exactly.
00:01:27
Speaker
Oh, I love that,
Integration into German Tech Culture
00:01:28
Speaker
I love that. And before we of course get into everything, like what does DNI mean to you? And I guess why is it particularly important to you?
00:01:36
Speaker
Well, I have to say that since I started my career six years ago in the people and culture department, it has been a very great journey to get to know a lot of people from different nationalities and me coming from Honduras to a new world six years before in people and culture department. It has been a great journey to get to know people from all over the world. And basically when I started working in the startup world, in the tech industry,
00:02:06
Speaker
It was clear to me that we had to be sure to have diversity inclusion because it was very male dominated. And of course I also was new in the whole tech area. I come from consumer goods and e-commerce and then I moved to technology. And you can just see that different nationalities and different personalities come together to make
00:02:28
Speaker
tech happened, but it was very much male dominated in a way. And also, well, five years ago, the immigration just started to happen in a way that still there was a lack of professionals in Germany. But now we have a little more people coming in and we have different nationalities from everywhere, just joining into the tech world since Germany has a lot of startups.
00:02:58
Speaker
popping up and it's important to keep it balanced between every night from Germans to international. I like to work with international teams. I think that brings different ideas for solution to problems.
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, no, totally. I think you're so right. I think, you know, let's be honest, Germany is sometimes fairly old fashioned and very legacy, I would say. So I guess having people coming from all over the world, they bring a different take on certain aspects, different laws, et cetera. So yeah, I definitely see the importance of having a team that is a lot more international. Globalization is a thing, you know, and if you're not international and don't have the integration of different nationalities in your team,
00:03:40
Speaker
Basically, it is complicated as well to find ways to be the first one or the number one in that country. If you don't know about it, you can read about it. But if you have somebody from there, it is easier to just tackle the issues or find the opportunities. So I think it would be valuable to have different nationalities in the team.
00:04:00
Speaker
Yeah, totally.
Personal Journey from Honduras to Germany
00:04:02
Speaker
Unless, you know, talk about your experience moving to Germany, because I think there's so many people that have done the exact same and can probably really relate to your experience. So how was that experience for you moving from Honduras to Germany? Well, as I mentioned before, my great grandfather came from Germany and basically I had to think a lot because I had a career back home. I was, you know, I was already someone in someplace
00:04:29
Speaker
And I thought, okay, what is Germany? How does it work? I have never been to Europe. I used to travel a little bit, but I was not so savvy in traveling.
00:04:38
Speaker
And I was 31 years old when I decided to pack two bags, leave behind my whole world, and come and see what was Germany all about. I was shaking all the way. I was shaking on the airplane. I was so nervous. I didn't know what to expect, what to see. And once I came here,
00:05:00
Speaker
I came around September, so it was not that bad, the weather in Hamburg. And I loved it because it's clean, it was organized. I love the transportation system. Of course, after a few years here, you understand that the weather is a little complicated.
00:05:18
Speaker
To say the least. But it was a huge decision and I don't regret it, but you have to be really mentally prepared to move because you have to burn your bridges. You cannot be in a new country and missing your hometown because you can never move forward where you are because you're always holding on to the past and that is also not good.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned that you have to be ready to move here. Like, you know, I can imagine when did you, when did you feel like you're already in? And if you don't, I'm asking, why did you make the move in the first place? Like, what was it? I mean, I know that your grandfather was from Germany, so there was, of course, a slight link here. But what was it about Germany and Europe that made you think I'm ready to move and this is why I want to do it? Good question. I have to say that it was in between, okay, I said, okay, I'm thirty
00:06:10
Speaker
One, I'm still young. I can start again. It's hard to start again. You think you can, but when you are starting again, it is difficult because I had already 10 plus years of experience in sales and marketing. Back home, it was basically B2C and B2B, but it was more trade marketing activations.
00:06:34
Speaker
and working with supermarkets. And then you come to the new world, new life, e-commerce. And whereas you don't have a lot of, back then there was not a lot of apps or technology. And when you always clicked on the link, you were always
00:06:49
Speaker
very unsure if it was a virus or because there was no, basically, it was hard to have firewalls or protection against, you know, everything that happens on the Internet. And then you come here and everything is basically online. And I had to learn
00:07:05
Speaker
even shop online was some of the things that I needed to learn. It was a moment of now or never because then if I would get married, have kids, and then I would say, okay, I cannot start over again. You can't, but it's even harder and kudos to females or families that move across to other countries to start again with families. They're really brave.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, no, totally. I mean, I'm scared to even make the move now with no family and no marriage. So I can imagine what it's like when you do move with everyone.
Cultural Adaptation and Identity
00:07:42
Speaker
Yeah, and how did you kind of find integrating into a new country and culture, right, as a woman? But how did you kind of find that entire... Because I feel like you either have to submerge yourself into the culture or it could be quite tricky. So how did you find that aspect of it?
00:07:58
Speaker
Yeah, that was a little tricky because I'm Latina, you know. And sometimes for us, it's like come to the party, it's around six to eight. This is a very cultural thing, and Germans are very on time. They're punctual. They say at six, they come 10 before six. And in Latin America, you're there at 8.30. They say it's 8.30 or 9. And those little things you start to learn because if
00:08:25
Speaker
It is part of their culture, it's part of respecting where you are. Adaptation is about you have to be flexible to learn and say, okay, I don't like it, but this is probably the best way to go where you are. And you should just manage to be flexible and just go with it. And being a woman in Germany has taught me a lot because
00:08:53
Speaker
Being a woman and single can be lonely and can be hard, especially if you don't know the language. So I jumped into learning the language, being silly when speaking the language. I was not fluent, but I made mistakes and not being scared helped me. And if you know you make mistakes and someone corrects you, you just laugh.
00:09:15
Speaker
laugh and you're like, okay, I learned. But put yourself out there and make sure that, you know, we can be burnable and also
00:09:25
Speaker
Just by showing yourself and being yourself to other people, you will find people will help you to integrate. And everybody's scared to meet new people. It's not about nationalities or countries. Everybody's afraid to make a fool of yourself and open up to someone you don't know. So I just would recommend, doesn't matter, just have fun. Try to be the best you can with who you are and everything should work out.
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, totally. And what did you kind of find the most difficult when relocating to Germany? I think I would know what I would struggle with the most, but what did you really struggle with that when you moved here? Yeah, being by myself, because I didn't know, of course, just coming here and just meeting new people and being the awkward duckling, you know, the black duckling and just saying, standing up next to a room of people who are talking about
00:10:24
Speaker
you know, technology, e-commerce, techy startups, and you're like, hi. You have to be a little bit brave and a little bit foolish and just shake it off and continue. And basically, if you don't take things too personal, you're learning, you're adapting, and that's the best way. If you don't expose yourself to different scenarios and you don't have different interactions,
00:10:52
Speaker
You don't actually know what you like for the future or you don't want to continue doing it. You don't have to follow everyone. You can also follow your own piece, but you have to be exposed. If you're not exposed, you cannot make, you know, informed decisions.
00:11:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And what about the language side
Language and Professional Impact
00:11:12
Speaker
of things? I know you mentioned you learned German afterwards. When you first got here, did you find that to be tricky? Because I'm sure for many engineers and for many who are moving to Germany, that is probably a massive thing, right? How did you find that part of it? My first year when I came to Germany, I was basically learning the language. I did the years of the integration course, which they pay you professionals. They are paid to learn German for a few months.
00:11:39
Speaker
And I just jumped into, you know, I was a bookworm. I was studying from Monday to Friday, a full class, and then in the evenings, two times a week, studying more German, reading, going to the library, reading kids books, and to learn because they have very simple grammar. Yeah.
00:12:01
Speaker
try to also go out and just speak to people, even though I couldn't. Hamburg is one of the most, it's in the North of Germany and they see everybody here, mostly everyone speaks German. So it is not, Berlin is very different. Berlin is, everybody speaks English and they automatically switch if you cannot speak German. In here, everybody speaks German and if you cannot speak, you can, then you speak to them in English.
00:12:29
Speaker
they may answer you in English or they may answer you back in general. So the language was, you know, I don't like to feel stupid. So basically I decided to make myself very savvy, at least learning the basics so I can understand when they would say in the supermarket, hey, Qui Tung, and when she's meeting the invoice and you're like, yeah, Pita. And
00:12:52
Speaker
It was hard and especially also now that I work in HR, it was hard. It's helped me now because I work in HR with German laws. I do contracts in German and in English. So basically my whole trajectory has brought me to where I am and I'm happy I put the effort back in the day to learn the German I have now and my knowledge. So it has helped me to become the person I am.
00:13:21
Speaker
That's incredible. And I think you kind of just have to get stuck into it, right? Because you either like walk around and hope that someone speaks English or you actually do have to learn the language of where you are. And I think that I think would be something that I know that many other people would really struggle with. Maybe not so in Berlin, like you said, but in other German cities, it could be an actual issue.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, I always say, you know, we are always struggling with being scared of being foolish, but you're just learning. Just, just have like a child's mentality. Put yourself out there, have fun. And while you have fun, you will learn faster because you have all these dopamine going through your body and it's your brain. If you have cortisol going through your body.
00:14:01
Speaker
you're just tense and you will not, you know, relax. Yeah, yeah, no, totally, totally. And I guess, you know, being here for the length of time you have now, what do you love about Germany? And why, I guess, not why would you encourage more to move here, but especially if you've been in the tech startup scene yourself now, why do you like being here? In Germany, I like it because it's different from my country. I feel safer.
00:14:28
Speaker
to walk the streets. There's a public transport and basically back home is just becoming super crazy with traffic. You can be one hour, two hours stuck in traffic and here you can still jump on a train and be at your job 20, 40 minutes later, depending on where you live. The flexibility as well of having different nationalities from different worlds, learning different types of food, listening to different languages.
00:14:57
Speaker
Um, the opportunity to traveling around Europe and, um, it has good opportunities as well to grow professionally. It's tough because in the tech world is very male-nominated, but, um, and also you have to know your technology and know what in, in which sector you are. I started in micro mobility. Now I am in the sector of recycling electrical batteries.
00:15:27
Speaker
And who would have thought? I never expected from consumer goods selling, you know, tea, Lipton or mayonnaise or also working with Gillette and ORAB to now selling recycling, which is how you can see the difference in the world where you are. Right now in Europe is everything that's the green movement and everything that has to do with the environment and making it better.
00:15:56
Speaker
It is a theme and it is a good thing that is happening. And it's nice to know that Germany has enough money to do this type of projects to help the world be a better place. Yeah, yeah. No, totally. I think you're right there. Of course, different locations of different sort of domains, tech startups as well. So I guess here the focus is a lot on the kind of green tech space, the environment as well, which may not be the case in other kinds of countries around the world.
00:16:26
Speaker
Yes, that is correct. In my country, for example, or Latin America, we have more consumer goods or trying to help, you know, when you need someone to come and repair something at your house or delivery for food is very different. And that's actually also what makes the world a nicer place. So the variety of things, right?
00:16:48
Speaker
Yeah, no, totally, totally. And looking into your role now in relation to kind of DNI, I think it's really interesting because, of course, I find that DNI comes into everyone's role in a different way, but I'm sure in your role now in HR, it's a massive thing.
Fostering Inclusion and Communication Strategies
00:17:04
Speaker
So given your experience, what are you doing now in your role to kind of ensure that people from outside of Germany are having a good experience and relocating?
00:17:13
Speaker
Well, me personally, for example, because I had the opportunity of relocating myself, I can relate very quickly with the people who want to relocate. And my first thing I would do with them is communicate clearly with them on what to expect and how things work and to make sure to give them clear
00:17:38
Speaker
idea and overview of the process that is long, as tedious, as bureaucracy is a thing. The paperwork is a thing. And to make sure that they are very over communication is not a thing. So the more you communicate, and you also have to speak with the people that they want to relocate here into like a personal way, like a human way to make them feel safe. Because it is not easy to just pack your things and move across to a
00:18:07
Speaker
a place you don't know, a company you don't know, a culture you don't know, a language. So there's a lot of unknowns and the shock is very, very real and it's very hard. And you just, I don't think there's enough people expressing this outside that people don't understand that, oh yeah, people think, oh, I'm going to a new country. But you leave your family behind, you leave your friends behind, maybe a car, a house, a world that you created for 20 years, 30 years.
00:18:37
Speaker
Can you pack that in a bag and then start from zero? It's not easy. So, giving them a space for them to feel, you know, welcome is important. And then of course, me as an HR professional, when we hire people, we make sure that our job descriptions is all gender-friendly. That is also applicable for everyone when it reads it.
00:19:02
Speaker
And we are accepting any, everyone that comes from anywhere and has any type of, you know, uh, sexuality, um, they can shoot. We don't have any issues with their sexuality. You can be straight or a unicorn or a dolphin. And we just, uh, are looking for people that are good on certain type of technologies. And, uh, hopefully we can find.
00:19:30
Speaker
more females out there that want to join the circularity economy space. And basically so far we are working on to moving the team. Right now it's a little bit 70, 30, but we are moving into 50, 50. It's just hard to find some woman developers in the tech industry.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, totally. I think it's a massive issue, not just in Germany, of course, I think every country when it comes to female engineers, so for sure. And how are you making the kind of working environment as economics more inclusive for those who are diverse, whether you're not from Germany, female, what are you kind of doing? And what would you maybe encourage also other companies to do to make their environment a lot more inclusive?
00:20:16
Speaker
We have to be, just because you said you're inclusive doesn't mean that you are actually accepted. Yeah. So it has to be very clear that you have to create an environment that you accept everyone that comes from with different nationalities, with different baggage, let's say. Yeah. Because it's not baggage in a bad way. It's baggage in a mentality, food, colors, everything that is, you know, it's not from Germany.
00:20:45
Speaker
And be accepted is very hard to find if you come from very different backgrounds and stuff in any part of the world and in any place. So by giving this space that you are accepted for who you are and where you come from, it will make it easier for the person to feel comfortable to be themselves and bring the best of themselves to the company and give the best back.
00:21:10
Speaker
But if you just say, yeah, we are diverse and we are inclusive and you speak only German and everything you have is written in German. And there's still a lack of integration from the people. They don't feel welcome. They're always like, why do I have to translate
00:21:33
Speaker
if we are an international company for example. So these type of tiny things make a difference in how people would feel included or not. If you're in a lunchtime and you know people are there to speak English, you have to be respectful and speak English. It doesn't matter from where you are, it's just without my already who speaks, if it would be Spanish, then speak Spanish. It's not about saying Germans or this or that, it's just be mindful
00:22:03
Speaker
where your team is coming from in the moment you are to make them feel that if you feel someone is not participating, ask them a question to make sure that they feel inclusive. And that's how we do it in our company. We give people the chance to be themselves, ask the questions and to just feel comfortable. And I think that is simple things that go along a long way.
00:22:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, totally. And I think the whole language speaking is really important because I've been in so many situations whereby you've been in a room of people that are speaking German and then I'm like, hello. And it's really awkward, right? Because of course, you know that you're somewhat the outsider here, so you're having to then ask them to change how they are in their own environment. So it is quite tricky, but I do think, you know, just making sure that everyone is able to take part in the conversation is really important.
00:22:58
Speaker
And I understand because what I said before, right? Everybody is afraid to, you know, to do new connections. They also may be insecure of their English and they prefer to do their mother tongue. But if I have zero knowledge of German and you have 20% knowledge of English, it's better for us to write than, you know, than the other way around, right? So it's fine. Everybody can just feel uncomfortable, but
00:23:27
Speaker
The effort is what, especially when you're in this country and you want to integrate the effort from their culture would be appreciated if they were a little more and also shake it off and, you know, be silly as well sometimes to improve themselves by learning about it. Yeah. Yeah. And why do you think companies sometimes go wrong in doing, in trying to make their environment more inclusive, especially for those who are not from Germany and you've seen it and you've had it from your experience, right? Where do you think companies go wrong in doing what they do maybe?
00:23:58
Speaker
They don't, I like when, you know, everybody is put like in a basket, but at the same time you have your team needs that should actually address everyone in different ways so they can come clear with the information because you cannot say the same message to everyone because everybody will
00:24:22
Speaker
may interpret this message in different ways. So it's important that you give a general message, but then break it down to your team and have a conversation about this message and say, hey, so what we heard right now in this meeting, how did you feel? Did you understand what was your intake? What was, you don't have to make it also a complicated thing, but to make sure that everybody understood. And if people don't like it, then speak up and like it.
00:24:50
Speaker
a space as well to clarify. And I think there's not a lot of that going around and we come from different cultures, communication styles, languages. So a word can mean something in, you know, United States and it can be different in English, German. So it is important to align on the way we communicate.
00:25:14
Speaker
and to break it down to the team to find out if it's really what we tend to, the message was intended to and clarify all the things. And that way you also give them a space to feel included and to make sure that they also feel heard if they didn't like something and try to fix it at the moment. Yeah.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think miscommunication is hard when everyone's speaking the exact same language. So imagine if you've got people from different languages and different cultures, it's probably even trickier to know like what the tone is. I mean, I know that, I don't know if I can say this, but I know that Germans are very direct. So sometimes when they are speaking, I don't know whether I should be offended or they're just trying to tell me, you know, exactly what they think, etc. So yeah, you know, there's so many aspects of it that
00:26:01
Speaker
I come from Latin America and I find that being direct is such a refreshing thing. Because there's ways to communicate, right? Being direct doesn't mean you have to be mean, which is very different. You don't have to be mean to say that you don't like something. And it's fine if you say no. But in other cultures, no is a sin. For example,
00:26:27
Speaker
If I, when I was a child and I would go visit my mom's neighbors and they will offer me food, I was not hungry, but I couldn't say no because don't you dare say no. So I had to say yes a little bit, but I was stuffed and I had to eat it. Germans would say, no, thank you. I already ate, you know, and it's fine.
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't even like second guess what, like, honestly, there's been so many times and I also come, so I found it all from the Caribbean. And honestly, my parents now and my grandparents, they're so direct and I'm not offended because I'm used to it. But even now when I'm in meetings, I'm like, this is great. Like we're just getting straight to the point, no like waffling around the topic, literally just bang, here's what we need to talk about. So yeah, it is, I agree, it is very refreshing, but I can imagine
00:27:14
Speaker
those are maybe not used to that sort of culture and not used to that communication, it can be pretty difficult and they may get upset or offended by what someone's saying. Back to your question when you mentioned about the relocation, that is one of the things that you have to communicate very clearly when they come, what to expect, you know, because you don't want that awkward moment when everybody is looking at you, at someone who did he just said, did he joke? Yeah. You have to be very clear to your tail.
00:27:41
Speaker
So they know what to expect and they're like, okay, now I understand. And once you're living here, you get it faster. But all these tiny things that you think that are irrelevant, normally there are things that everybody thinks they're obvious. Nobody says them because they think that it's obvious. And those are the things that everybody misses. I don't know if you know, but basically when you are in an emergency and something happens,
00:28:09
Speaker
And everybody says, call an ambulance. Everybody assumes that the ambulance was called, but nobody has planned to designate someone specifically, like say, you, the person, you know, black shirt, cap, and be like, me, make someone responsible, you, call an ambulance. And then they know that the ambulance will be called. So these obvious things are not so obvious for everyone because everybody has different ideas on what obvious is.
00:28:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, totally.
Attracting and Retaining International Talent
00:28:40
Speaker
And I guess, you know, one thing I love about Germany is that it does attract so much talent and I think that's the one thing I think is amazing about Germany is that it does attract talent from all over the globe and it's not very stuck on just having Germans working in Germany. I guess from your side, if you could maybe give advice to companies who are looking to attract more talent from outside, I know that you mentioned it's economics, I think you mentioned
00:29:00
Speaker
The team are 80% international and 20% German. So there's like some really, like really impressive stats. And there are many companies that I've spoken with that are all German. So how have you achieved this? And I guess if you could maybe give any advice to companies who are looking to attract more international talent, what would that be? Well, I would also say start with the job descriptions. Yeah. Because if you are wanting to attract talent and your job description is in England, is in German, sorry.
00:29:29
Speaker
then basically you will just get, you know, German speakers. And it also is intimidating even if you read, if you have to translate job description to find in one of the requirements that, oh, you can, it's 100% English, but you make the job description in German, that's a start. And also to make sure that when you do the integration or the onboarding that everything is also
00:29:57
Speaker
plain and simple in English for them to feel comfortable. It's like when you welcome someone to your house, you want to make them feel welcome. And bringing someone to a company, they're coming with everything they got, all the emotion, all the excitement, and they're really looking forward to being their best they can because this is the company they brought them to Germany. They're not planning on leaving the company in a month after moving, I don't know, thousands of kilometers,
00:30:26
Speaker
they want to feel safe and if you don't provide a safe space they will not also perform they will be working out of fear out of being uncomfortable so try to just be humanized in saying welcome to the company i can be your friend i can be your colleague and what can i help you with and try if you're not an international company we'll start with the job description and start moving things into the language that most of
00:30:53
Speaker
you know, people, it's English, right? Yeah. So if you move your language to English, try also to have all the documentations and, you know, confluence in the English speaking space. If you don't have it, you don't have to, you can just download it and translate it and have it or just assign someone. But this tiny details help people feel that you get the best out of people when they feel comfortable and they feel safe.
00:31:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, totally, totally. Oh, amazing. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for joining me. I've really enjoyed that. And honestly, I think it's really important to share so many experiences because not everyone has an amazing experience of moving to Germany or moving anywhere, right? So, yeah, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights.