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Episode 40 - Rhiannon White, CEO at Clue
42 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, Sade is joined the newly appointed CEO at Clue (ex CPO). Founded in 2013, Clue is a menstrual health app developed by the Berlin-based technology company BioWink GmbH, with over 10 million users from 190 countries.
Topics covered:
- Rhiannon's journey into tech and her main motivations
- Challenges she faced in the beginning of her career
- Developing a tech product for women as a women
- The importance of building products using a gender inclusive lens
- Speaking the language of men (in relation investors and board meetings)
*It's important to note, this episode was recorded whist Rhiannon was working as CPO at Clue.
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Transcript
Introduction & Rhiannon's Role
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome back to a new episode of Women Talk Tech. Today I am joined by Rhiannon, CPO at Clue. We discussed her journey into tech and her experience so far at Clue, and for those who don't know, Clue is a Berlin-based STEM tech used to track periods in all things menstrual health. Combining science and tech, they are paving the way for how we learn, access and talk about all things menstrual health.
00:00:38
Speaker
Given the product, Rhiannon shared her experience on what it's like developing a product for women as a woman and the impact Clue's product has had being developed by a female-led team. Of course, men have a different lens when developing products, so Rhiannon shared what it's like speaking to investors about Clue and the importance of speaking the language of men when it comes to such conversations. So, I hope you loved this conversation as much as I did.
Clue's Mission & Impact
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah, Rhiannon, tell me a little bit more about ah about yourself then.
00:01:06
Speaker
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me here. it's really um It's really a privilege to have an opportunity to speak about these topics because I think they're really important. And um while there is an ongoing conversation out there, I don't think we can actually talk about it enough. So thank you for making the space for this continuously in your work, Shadi.
00:01:22
Speaker
um So I'm Rhiannon, I'm the Chief Product Officer at Clue. and Clue is a period and cycle tracking app used by over 10 million women and people with cycles every month. um And our job really is to try and create a product that helps people understand their bodies and understand the connection between their hormones and their mind and their bodies, because hormones are really the bridge between our minds and our bodies. And so hopefully through understanding, give them some agency and and empowerment over over the choices and over the health that they want to make.
00:01:50
Speaker
I love that. I'm also one of those 10 million, I think you said. um And I love it. I love the app. I remember when I first started using it and I was like, how does not everyone not not everyone use it? It's incredible. And I think, yeah, you're so right. I think it really does allow women to be not ah not only just women, but also their partners to be a lot more in tune with kind of what's going on um before I was just kind of going off 28 days and hoping whatever was going on. ah But now I feel like you can actually see where you're at and kind of what's going on. So, yeah, it's incredible.
00:02:19
Speaker
Oh it's really nice to hear that. Yeah there yeah you and you know you mentioned it previously and I think you're right you know there's not many spaces or there are spaces where we can talk about it but it still feels like we are having a lot of conversations and and maybe not as much action as what
The Role of Diversity in Tech Teams
00:02:33
Speaker
we'd hope. So I guess on your side right what does DNI mean to you? And I think when we talked about this as a question it's so it's deceptively simple sounding as a question but I think it's uh for me it means at its most important means that actually our team should reflect our user base. we We should look like the people we're trying to serve and we're trying to build for. That's not always possible. um And as we know in tech, and because we are talking in the context of software, often our teams look
00:03:06
Speaker
nothing like our user basis. You know, one of the key things that we say in product generally as ah is a product in a different is, you know, you are not you're the user, um don't build for yourself. This is one of the things that we drum into product managers when they're starting out in product because So often teams don't look like and reflect the people who they are hoping to build and and serve. um And so I think that's the most important thing. We start a long way back from there. And so for me, um for me, the most the the the kind of the practical step towards that is trying to build teams that reflect um that aren't a mono culture in terms of
00:03:43
Speaker
where people come from, skills and experience, life stages, lifestyles, trying to have a team that really has a mix of everything. you know Just as um a team that um is super young and doesn't have anybody with ah with a with a family or anybody looking after elderly family um family members, ah even though they might be diverse in terms of coming from different backgrounds and gender, they're not actually diverse because they're not reflecting different life stages that people are at equally if you go the other way. So really it's trying to have,
00:04:12
Speaker
that diversity of experience and backgrounds and points of view and ways of thinking in the team. So that's what I that's what it means to me I think. Honestly I really love that definition and I love it because I think you spoke about experience and I think diversity is so much more than just gender right it's not just you know man and woman and I think to be fair it is maybe the one way we can measure it and I do get it when it comes to data that is helpful uh but equally right you're right it's so much more it's it's age it's you know where you've come from it's culture it's so much more than that or maybe not even age it's more like life experiences you know you could be 20 and be a carer um versus someone who's 50 and not yet been a carer yet right so. Exactly and that will profoundly change the way that you view the world and the problems that you understand and see and
00:04:57
Speaker
And I think that diversity, I first started to really deeply think about this when I was working on a banking product. um And actually, financial products are super interesting to work on because, it's you know, what are we supposed to do to talk about money, sex and religion? And I've now worked in all three, not really um politics. six yeah been and But we were doing a piece of work where we um were closing down an app that had been really good from an accessibility point of view.
00:05:21
Speaker
um And we weren't as good in the new app. And the the team, the product managers and the team got really passionate about it and personally spoke to the 300 remaining customers who were um legally blind, who had been using the product. And they really pushed through the whole organization or the whole product team how important it was to understand these different, um the different needs and the different diversity that we, you know,
00:05:43
Speaker
We come with these assumptions and if we don't have different backgrounds and different experiences and different capabilities, we don't ever challenge them and then life changes and we realize that we've been perhaps totally, you know, not doing that. I mean, you know, for example, a lot of um digital products just don't take into account that that as people age, there's eyesight changes, you know, or their mobility changes. And so but this is the type of this is where we really have to think about diversity. and And this is the classic trap that product teams fall into all the time. We build for, and we do it here too. you know if We were just having conversation about this yesterday, actually, in terms of some work we're trying to do in improving um how we build on our Android app.
00:06:21
Speaker
you know we We build in an office with great Wi-Fi. We're always connected to the Wi-Fi. We always have unlimited plans. We don't have to think about our data consumption or we're not. like We build in the perfect circumstances all the time, but our users are not in the perfect circumstances. For us, for example, our users are in doctors' offices, or they are on the train, or they are um in the five minutes that they can snatch between having to deal with all their other responsibilities.
00:06:45
Speaker
um and all the other things that they have to do in their lives, so they don't have all of the perfect conditions. So the app should be there for them when they need it, not... where we're developing it. Does it make sense? Wow. No, you're so right. And honestly, we'll go into it in a bit more detail when we kind of go in the conversation. But when I think about products and development, I always think about, OK, if it's safe for men, not that it should be developed only by men, but how you know that sort of thing. I never would have thought about, OK, should we develop a product that considers connectivity and and how people are going to be using? I mean, that is maybe such a bad thing. But I think you're so right. Not everyone's going to have the exact same conditions when using this application or whatever.
00:07:22
Speaker
um Wow, that's so interesting. um and Look, we're not there yet. This is something that we want to do better in. And I think this is the point about we can all do better all the time in diversity and inclusion because Because the human brain does kind of naturally, we do go to kind of, and we see this in our user research. In fact, we have it, we talk about it as people like me. we we yeah It's very validating for us to be with people like us and to hear that. And that's a very useful, powerful thing that we can um support people in. You know, hey, you are normal. This cycle length of variation is normal. It's okay that you're experiencing this symptom. Other people experience it too. and
00:08:02
Speaker
people like me is really powerful in that point and in that moment and can genuinely help people but people like me can hinder people when we then only work with and only talk about and only talk to people like me and then that's you know you have to constantly be balancing that.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's a constant battle. And I think especially in the in the world we live in now, things are always changing when it comes to tech. And also when it comes to, I don't want to say it, but what's acceptable and worth versus what's not, you know, maybe 10, 15 years ago, conversations that we are now deeming as not acceptable were not acceptable, but they were just not looked upon as it is now. And times change and and things do change. So it's important to web to move with the times and move with how our society is developing.
00:08:45
Speaker
looking at DNI altogether, you know. ah Amazing.
Career Transition to Product Management
00:08:49
Speaker
And you know, take us back to the beginning of your career, you know, how did you get into tech? Because I think it's always incredible to hear everyone's stories because no one's story is ever the same.
00:08:59
Speaker
Well, I mean, I'm no spring chicken. And so back in the plasticine age when I started in my career, um I actually started, um I started at L'Oreal and at that time in London, and we used to go into a separate room to use the internet.
00:09:14
Speaker
ah right take was yeah thank um But as I progressed through working. I was falling more and more in love with digital and with the openness and the connection that it is. And i I worked for four years in political marketing at home in New Zealand and there um I remember when I When I arrived on the my first or second day on the job, the the man I was reporting to said, so I know we didn't talk about it in the interview, but you'll be responsible for the website and for digital. You okay with that? And I said, great, I'll need to hire someone because I i knew nothing about it. I knew I knew nothing. ah he And he was very supportive of that. And um and actually, i that was the first time I ever hired as well.
00:09:59
Speaker
And the the man who I ended up um hiring and working with, this is an interesting thing about diversity. So I was 27. It was my first management role. um And he was 60 and um he um he, you know,
00:10:13
Speaker
you think you're gonna hire someone to do digital in the website, you're gonna hire some young cool guy. yeah guy he was a He was an older cool guy and he was he he really like he really knew himself and he knew what he wanted. He wanted to do good work, he wanted someone who trusted him to do the work and he didn't want to be a manager or do this or that. I was a brand new manager, I had to deliver the work, I had no idea how to do it. I needed someone who I could learn from and who could really guide and teach us and so we were for four years a very happy match um together. and It was really I learned so much from him and really through working alongside him and building this I mean he did the work but you know doing it together um I really fell in love with the just again I say the connection and the openness you know the ability to when I started at L'Oreal L'Oreal brilliant brilliant brilliant marketers brilliant ah place to learn and really kind of absorb that
00:11:06
Speaker
that very classical marketing background. And it's still quite one way, you know, you push out. And the thing I loved about digital is that they respond, and you can have a relationship, you know, and the the definition of marketing that I fell in love with 20 years ago was a very old one, which is building profitable customer relationships. And that's what marketing is about. And it's the relationship that and the profitable and the customer. It's all all three that matter um and I found digital enables that relationship because you can, you know, you you put something out there, you learn, you hear back, you put something out, you learn and it's that that conversational loop that I really loved and so that was how I first started moving into into digital and then I moved into
00:11:46
Speaker
um product when I spent a couple of years at the BBC and the um I worked for with ah with a ah brilliant product leader there who very kindly and very inspirationally mentored me across into product and I went to work with him when he was the chief product officer at Shazam. And so that was my, I'd been working in marketing and in digital and then that was my move into and and software.
00:12:11
Speaker
Wow, wow. And would you say there were any like main motivations? Like what made you kind of, I guess you were in the tech space, you know, to some extent in the digital world, what made you kind of go into product other than the mentor you had? Was there anything that really stood out to you so and said like, this is something which I really, really want to want to do further?
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I mentioned I've been fully more and more in love with digital and with that relationship. And the more I got into it, the more I wanted to be closer, and just closer and closer and closer to the heart of that relationship. And then when I was at the BBC, I i spent some time working on BBC iPlayer, which you will know. And I realized that really,
00:12:50
Speaker
and marketed itself you know I was the head of marketing but I didn't really it was such a good product because the the product was so strong and the relationship between users and or the audiences the BBC calls them was so strong because the product was delivering on their needs and was delivering something that people really wanted and valued and so I thought I you know that's the heart of the relationship it's the product and it's what what people are using and so I was super curious and again very you know the BBC amazing place very welcoming and very all of the technical teams were very welcoming of a marketer who wanted to come along to the demos and learn and you know pop my head up and be the annoying person who wanted to understand how did it work? what does it you know What does that look like? How do we actually build that? um And so that was where I thought, well, I really want to get i want to be right at the heart of what's being built. That is the the thing that forms the basis of the relationship with the person at the other end.
00:13:39
Speaker
yeah you wanted to be where I guess where the marketing started right you wanted to be I guess marketing the product and actually learning about what it is that you were actually selling or marketing as that so how cool and were there any kind of standout challenges in your career whether that was you know when making that switch or you know being in tech in general anything that kind of stands out to you and and that You really learn from and you're really grateful that that happened to you, what happened around you. Yeah. I mean, I'm very open about this because I was just a really bad product manager to start with. It was a really, you know, it was a really hard, I had ah the first, I remember the first 13 months I worked 12 hours a day, six days a week. um And on Sundays I would sort of collapse and my poor husband would be like, hi I haven't seen you for a week. um And we would hang out together it for a couple of hours and then it would start all over again. um And I really, I found it was a very difficult transition um for me. And I was really, I knew I wasn't doing a great job. I knew that, you know, all the things that people talk about product managers shouldn't do, I did. I built what sales said you should build.
00:14:42
Speaker
i um I wrote and defined everything, wah wah, it didn't work. like Everything that you know, all the classic mistakes that product managers make, I made them. um And I've slowly started to find my feet, but I still knew I wasn't ah wasn't and wasn't I found my feet in terms of i so I started to do a lot of the basics with some competence. you know i was I was coming out from under the overwhelm. um But I knew I could see I wasn't as strong a product manager as the ones around me. And and and then a colleague at Shazam, who went on to be the chief product officer there and who's a brilliant product leader, gave me a really piece of a really valuable piece of insight of feedback that was tough to hear, but was really transformational for me.
00:15:23
Speaker
And he said, look, you're really senior and you're really senior now, so you need to bring some insight. It's not enough just to deliver. You have to bring insight. And that was really a big moment for me because the challenge I'd found is that moving to this new domain of product, I had to figure out how to deliver. It was hard to deliver. You have to deliver in every job that you do. I figured out how to deliver. I knew i wasn't there was a gap between where I was and my aspiration in terms of what I wanted to be in terms of you know, delivering value for the organization. And the bringing insight. And as soon as he said that, it really unlocked for me because in marketing, that was what I had done. Yes, I delivered, but I brought insight. It was the same thing. And and then I was able to go back to, well, where does the insight come from? It comes from the connection to the customer and to the data and really re-anchor myself and reground myself in that. The thing that I had loved anyway in marketing and done and loved for 10 years about insight and about the customer.
00:16:17
Speaker
um And really come back to that and so bring that to my product practice and then and then I was kind of off and I started to you know learn and find my feet and Realize that I could do it. I could be and yeah and I could deliver something of value um But it was it took it took a long time and it was hard and you know I made all those classic mistakes that people sort of talk about now and people joke and laugh about oh You should never do that like yeah, I did it and and it doesn't work you know and here's why. That's incredible because I think we we often forget that right we come to work and we deliver our work and that that's great but there's so much more than just doing what you're maybe told to do right like you did there's so much insights which you had from your marketing career which you almost not forgot about but you kind of
00:16:59
Speaker
Yeah, and you almost just wanted to deliver the product work and like totally forgot about everything else, which you could have brought value to your company with us. And I'm sure there are so many other people, not just women, but some of the people that go into a new role in tech and just, you know, stick at the computer and they just work, work, work. And they totally forget that all the other insights they have from their wider life.
00:17:19
Speaker
um but we I mean, I've been in my role now for nearly five years. So if you think about my, my, my kind of age and career, it's five, my age altogether is is a lot more than that. And there's so many other insights I can bring aside from my working work, working work. Totally. Yeah. And it is, um, yeah, it was a very, and look, you know, product management is overwhelming and it, um, and it is hard when you start and you do have to figure out how to deliver. So that is necessary. It's just not sufficient.
00:17:49
Speaker
right, to to really shine you need to also bring insight. And so that was the the next stage. So that was an experience that I really learned from and that has stood me in good stead ever since. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually recently went to a, like ah a day with you and women and it was all about, you know, how can we make, how can we close ah the gender gap within tech? And we actually went into a bit of a discussion about how can we start developing product for the gender inclusive lens?
Reflecting Users in Product Development
00:18:14
Speaker
And I think we spoke about it earlier and I think you mentioned it, you know, having a wall around a team that is like the users.
00:18:20
Speaker
And I think when working at Clue, I'm sure this is really important for you to, I guess you're developing a product about women's health. um And I'm sure it would be quite weird to have a team of men that were doing that. I guess on your side, right why do you think it's important to to kind of have that that development team behind a product to be reflective of the actual users? What's the benefit of that? I mean, i I can see it, but I'd love to for other people to understand it in a bit more detail.
00:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's because, um and ironically, you know, I said we we always hammer into junior product managers, you are not the user. um But at Clue, we are all the users of the product. You know, my data is in that product. There is data in that product that I don't tell anyone, you know, that I don't share with yeah that's in completely private and that perhaps I only ever share with a doctor and sometimes not even then. So we take it, I think that's very important because it makes it very real for us. you know The questions about data privacy and data control, like it's our data. we we need to I think it's really important that a team understands and lives that. It's my personal life that's in there, along with 10 million others. um So I think that's important and that's helpful. And then I think also really living the experience. and i mean
00:19:34
Speaker
There are... It's interesting because we have a mixed, it was 70% female and 30% male. Yeah. And so we we do have male colleagues who work on the page and who are very empathetic. And actually one of my happiest moments was walking into the kitchen and two of those male colleagues were discussing how they were really unhappy about, um, yeah, the, the bit that we've got at week 13 and the pregnancy app, it just doesn't work. Cause in my pregnancy, it's saying this and this and this cause they were, you know, they were so deep and try to put themselves in user's shoes. And I really love that. It really made me feel warm on the inside to see what great blokes you are. You're really going. Yeah. And I think it's useful to really great product development comes from understanding the jobs to be done that your users need. And jobs to be done are about understanding the emotional needs and the emotional experience of people. And you can for sure learn and research and immerse yourself in that. And if you have also experienced those jobs to be done, I think that's really helpful.
00:20:27
Speaker
You know, there are there are, particularly when we look at our space, you know, a lot of what is very common for um for women and women's health and women and people with cycle's health is this kind of um dismissal of their symptoms and of their, you know, there's there's not a single woman or person with cycle who you can talk to in the world who has not experienced going to the doctor or trying to interact with the medical system and being told, oh, it's fine, it's normal, it's in your head. No, no, no. You know, like, ah the and then the self,
00:20:56
Speaker
gaslighting that comes from that. We just go, oh, it must just be me or it must just be because I'm not something enough. You know, I don't exercise enough. or I don't eat enough. I don't do this. Just insert something, not enough. And it is not the case. um But if you've experienced that, that feeling of of just not being listened to and not being heard. I think that's very helpful in terms of then thinking about, you know, I mean, our fundamental axiomatic belief at Clue is that, you know, tracking the reason why the product exists is because we believe that tracking equals data and and data equals insight and insight equals agency. And agency is the thing that we want and need, right? And so we have a fundamental belief about that through line.
00:21:35
Speaker
And if you've experienced a loss of agency, it's very helpful, I think, in terms of developing the product and being able to go, okay, how would this have helped me in that situation? How could I change that? Yeah, yeah. And I think you're right. I think there's so many aspects of a women's cycle, which we just put down to, it's just because of our cycle. um Or I remember like, I would like go to my mum or say like, oh, mum, I've got this. No, it's just because of your period. And I'm like, ah I mean, surely there's more data and you know there's more to just it's just your period. And I also think as well, like you said, as like no period's ever the same. and Whilst you can't speak with other women about it, it's your body and no one else is going to be able to experience what you experience or be able to somewhat
00:22:15
Speaker
it be the exact same. Even if it's like, oh yeah, I get the same symptom. It's never the exact same to the exact same extent. So I guess you're right. Having that data and actually having that experience to say, hey, I've been through this as well, is I guess what makes the development of Clue's product so successful. o Yeah, I think it's that connection. I mean, that's what's fascinating as well from a development point of view. We all, anybody who has ovaries goes through this.
00:22:39
Speaker
you know As you say, like, so it's homogenous on one level, but it's incredibly heterogeneous on the other level, and that we all have an individual experience and we will never know, like, I will never know what your pain feels like, and you'll never know what my pain feels like, right? Like, you just, and yeah, yeah it's it's fascinating in terms of that. How do you find the commonality to to help people?
00:22:58
Speaker
Yeah. And of course, men have a different lens when it comes to developing ah a product for women. Of course, they they don't have the experience, but equally right, they do have the experience from their partners. you know I'm sure if I was going through something my partner would know or vice versa, if they were going for um a certain health problem, I would want to know about it. I'd want to do my research and be you know all in the same loop, so to speak. kind And that's very big motivator, I think, for the for our male colleagues. you know i I see them And actually, I remember having a really brilliant interview with ah a male user once of the product and him saying, you know, we were talking about how he was using it and how he used it to support his girlfriend. And um and and he said, well, because, you know, it's our reproductive health, you know, they were trying to have a baby and they were building a family together and and they really were a team and they really saw themselves as in it together. And he so he wanted to be a good team member and support her. Right. And then I see our male colleagues here, you know, they they will talk about, well,
00:23:54
Speaker
You know, my daughter, when she became of an age, i wanted I realized there was no information and no support for her, and I was horrified. or no but but through something or they their mothers or this estate We are very interconnected as a species. And I think when we support each other, that's when we do best. And that's what I see very strongly and in our male colleagues at Clue, in that they really live that and have experienced that.
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah, wow, that's incredible. And you know, I think you're so right, whether you're a man, you have a partner, you might have a daughter, you might have a mum who's going through the ah the other end of, um oh um not puberty, but menopause, so to speak. um So yeah, we're all involved in this. And I think it's so important to just be a bit more in in line with kind of health in general, not just women's health, but health in general, because how I am is going to affect naturally everyone around me. and Exactly. Yeah. And we've all had that experience, right? where are I mean, there it really is true that health is the most important thing. I mean, when, you know, when we are in pain, or we can't do, or we have a health emergency, or we can't do what we want to do because of our health, or a loved one has the same thing, like everything else just drops away, right? It all just goes. You suddenly realize how it's just not important. And so that's the, like, without our health, we can't do, it's the ground in which we do everything else. and so
00:25:04
Speaker
Yeah, and we're all into getting health is not an individual thing, right? Yeah. And how have you found these sorts of conversations, or at least the development of the product, um when it comes to speaking with investors, of course, I guess that they take a completely different angle when it comes to looking at the product, um especially considering they may not be close to the work as such, or even maybe a user, um I'm not sure about the exact investment clue. But of course, just in general, how have you found speaking with, with those who may not be as close to the product or in line with that?
Investor Relations & Misconceptions in Women's Health Products
00:25:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's ah it's a really interesting question because I think we're very fortunate in that our investors are very passionate about the space and very passionate about the problem that we're trying to solve and are really connected to it. And we're very fortunate. you know We have our board, which is reflective of our and and investor base, is half and half. and um And we have that really classic
00:26:00
Speaker
just really amazing board members who really champion us and really support us and provide us with a huge amount of insight, but also support us in the in the wider world. And I really see that in the, you know, sometimes sometimes it takes, um ah sometimes, and and I think often there are quite a lot of women who experience this, where sponsorship by a male colleague can really help you. And so I transfer.
00:26:23
Speaker
positioned in a product. And, and we I see that, you know, our male board members are very, we're very fortunate to have some amazing board members from some amazing investment firms. And they really, yeah, the support that they provide us and the, the inside and the, you know, honestly, they put their money with their mouths and yeah can't like it's, it's really amazing.
00:26:42
Speaker
So there are folks out there who really see the, who really see the opportunity. And because they also, they're smart people and they, you know, they see it's not a small market. So, you know, there's a big opportunity there. um There are also conversations that are less easy and that where people don't.
00:27:00
Speaker
perhaps see the the opportunity or or or just have not had that experience where they kind of connect with the market. I have had, this is true, this really did happen to me two years ago. I was at an event with a bunch of investors and I was talking to someone who was asking, you know, what do you work and what do you do? And I said, it and and um they said, oh,
00:27:20
Speaker
what is and I said clue and they said what's that and I said well we're a period in cycle tracking app and I kind of seemed to but I thought Grammarly had that covered and I say well you know the menstrual cycle and he went oh also a niche market then and I just I know and I remember thinking i I didn't do maths at university, but I'm pretty sure 51% is not a niche market. I'm pretty sure. It's definitely mind-blowing. Niche is like, that's crazy to describe a product for women as niche. And they were like, he was like, how big is your term? I'm like, ah. So at some point. Yeah, this is that's the other. Yeah. You know, if people haven't had that exposure, if
00:28:06
Speaker
investors haven't had that exposure through their own lived experiences, they perhaps just don't realize that this is a lived experience. Yeah, but I also think it's kind of our job to communicate more about this. Like, I remember having conversations with my, I remember, you know, as a, as a young child, I got my period, my mum was on holiday, I was, you know, on the sofa, really in a lot of pain, and told my dad, because of course he was the one looking after me, he was at home, and he brought me a ah cold flannel for my head. could I mean, really, like, love him to pieces. He was really, yeah, and he really was. I of course had to explain to him, like,
00:28:42
Speaker
dad like my head's not hurting like i get it but you know i think it's not it's down to us but i think it's it is about us having conversations about our not about our peers but about our mental psych and a lot more so men can be a lot more aware because for that investor to say you know or niche market like he just probably either has not had a wife yeah I hope or just maybe his wife does not speak about it or no daughters and that's absolutely fine but I think it's our job to speak more about it so men are aware of what what we go through you know. Yeah and from a very early age you know I'm very careful to speak openly at home about my period and about reproductive health with my daughter and with my sons you know I want all three of them to have the same education and the same just normalizing of it all.
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah yeah and I'm you know I'm sure when in your career now you've had to I don't want to say adapt your communication style but depending on who you're speaking with I think communication is a massive massive part in terms of how I don't say how serious we are taking but ultimately it does kind of come down to that and yeah you mentioned previously you found that you know, it's been a massive, massive part of your career and your career journey.
Communicating with Business Leaders
00:29:50
Speaker
um And speaking the language of men is something which I think all of us are, I don't want to say, but we are having to do and we are having to learn how to best communicate. and Yeah, I mean, how have you found this kind of topic? I know you mentioned that you previously had a CEO that had a different style of communication, and you had to really learn how to communicate with him and vice ver versa. How have you found this?
00:30:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think this is a really important topic. And I think it's something that we actually don't talk often enough about um in this context, because I think often a lot of the for the last 10 years, a lot of the advice for um ah for for people coming from not coming from the kind of classic, yeah, you know, white male background has been mentors sponsor network do all this kind of stuff and that's all good advice those are all important things to do but there is a but there that um it kind of it helps right but this people still feel the but something's not quite right or quite not quite working or i'm not getting recognized or i'm not getting the promotion for and i think a lot of it comes down to that that
00:30:55
Speaker
There is a language of capital and people at the top of the company, the CEO and CFO on the board, speak the language of capital. And so they they speak through the the lens of money and how does it work and where does it flow and what are the outcomes and how does that impact the the money.
00:31:12
Speaker
And that if you come from a non, like, for example, you know, I come from a, I didn't do accounting at university. I didn't do, I just had no exposure to that. I didn't have that language or that framework to to use those concepts and those words. And this people like me thing is real.
00:31:28
Speaker
And people, language is a way that we feel comfortable or not with people. We feel like people understand us or if they don't. And, you know, my whole kind of original, I think background and I think often women in particular are heavily, we're very socialized, right? Like, and having very strong relationship skills is incredibly important. It's actually how you get anything done. We're placed because we're not unique islands. We work together as teams. And so being able to build those relationships and see each other's strengths and and see the strength of the team is actually the critical thing or lever. However, that's not the language that, that folks use. And so I would always start my communication relationship first, you know, I would, and so when I was, you know, I would describe, oh, the team's working really great together. We're doing all the stuff that's, you know, and talk about the team before getting to the outcomes and the business. And so I would kind of get dismissed as, in fact, I think one of the pieces of feedback I had from those, I don't know how she achieves
00:32:28
Speaker
her results, but she does seem to achieve results. But you know, like it was it doesn't fit the framework and it sounds fluffy. yeah um And that is the death trap for women wanting to be seniors, the sounding fluffy, or it people don't use the fluffy word, but that's actually what they mean. but the What the feedback comes back is, oh, not quite strategic enough, or not quite business savvy enough, or not quite commercial enough, or something not enough. And usually what that means is you're not talking the same way that we talk.
00:32:58
Speaker
and so um And I was working with an amazing coach in the US who who um helped me. she She said, well, you need to observe your CEO and listen to how he speaks. And what does he do? you know Don't so judge it. Don't be like, why isn't he listening to me? And why doesn't he take me seriously? And why doesn't he take seriously the stuff about the team? Because the team is everything.
00:33:17
Speaker
She's like, just let go of all of that for a while and just. ri And so I remember I spent a very specific exercise. I spent a month and we were in a lot of meetings together and I would just write down the words that he used and the sentences and the phrases that he said, and just not just like stop myself from thinking about them for a month. Just write it all down and then looked at it all in the end and went, oh, OK, you can see a pattern. You can see this pattern about capital first. And so and that this coach I worked with had a mantra which I still use to this day, which is numbers up, people down. So when when speaking to a CEO or a board, lead with numbers, don't lead with people, right? and so And so I started trying to practice that because it was hard, my instinct is still to this day to lead with people. because yeah You can see that's where my energy, my passion comes from. I love the users of the product, I love the team, you know, and I love the numbers as an outcome of loving the team and the users.
00:34:07
Speaker
but I don't love the numbers themselves for themselves. yeah And so I started trying to practice like numbers up, people down, lead with numbers and it really changed the tone of the conversations and I could see our relationship getting better and I could see we were starting to be able to be on the same page because you know I was speaking his language a bit more.
00:34:26
Speaker
And I've tried to kind of keep practicing that over the years. And I don't think I'm there yet. That's still something I need to work on and practice on. And you know my instinct is still always to lead with the with the with the people. um How I've started to try and adapt that is to to still try and kind of stay true to where my energy comes from. isn i I now try to, if I feel that instinct coming over me, I lead with the customer. And so I lead with a very kind of ah a personal or a customer or someone I've spoken to, because that's still people which is me but it's also business which is what you know the board or the CEO is looking for um and so that and then but when speaking with folks in the team like really leading with the relationship and with the person first and understanding what's going on for them not leading with well how your numbers this week you know that's
00:35:12
Speaker
yeah Yeah, yeah, but I think it's, it's quite hard, right? Because I guess systematically, I don't say we're not taught to speak like that. But it's not in, I would not know where to start when it comes to that. Like, it's not something which I've, which you grow up learning in school or or anything, you know, I think it's just,
00:35:29
Speaker
naturally how men and women are wired, right? But I do think it's important to be able to, to kind of, I guess, um code switch and be able to, I guess, adapt your communications after who you're speaking with. I don't think you have to completely change who you are. And um and I hope that you haven't. And I'm sure you haven't, right? ah Recognizing, okay, what do I want out of this? Yeah, yeah. And it's almost about empathy. You know, there's a, there's also empathy app as a thing. I had a a really um valuable, and again, slight, you know, we always have feedback, it's hard to hear, but it can be valuable piece of feedback from a CEO i I worked with a couple of years ago where he, we were having a disagreement about something and and he's got a bit frustrated and he said to me, Rhiannon, you have so much empathy with your teams and with our customers. Where's the empathy for me? And I was like, you know what, you're right. Like, you're right. I need to put myself in your shoes and understand what are you trying to achieve and what do you need? ah Because that's,
00:36:21
Speaker
You know, that's how we get stuff done from a product development point of view as you understand what does the user trying to achieve and what do they need? Well, maybe trying to get stuff done from an organization or a board point of view, put myself in the issues and I'd say, well, what do they need? What's going on for the investors? And both aspects are important, right? The customers and the outcome. You can't have the outcome about the customers and you can't have the customer about the outcome.
00:36:40
Speaker
like it Both are very important but I think it's about understanding also like how am I going to get hurt? If I'm speaking to a board or speaking to a CEO what is he going to be looking for for me to say? I mean i'm I'm sure he does care about the customers but he wants to know how much is it costing us and how much are we losing and and all of that. So all of that is all of the other things are really important to get to that but we don't want to be wasting people's time or being in a board meeting and and they just want to get to the numbers so I think yeah you're right it's being able to adapt um to that and I guess on that note right what advice would you give to women who are you know quote unquote trying to speak the language of men when it comes to board meetings when it comes to these sorts of conversations um what advice would you give?
00:37:22
Speaker
numbers up, people down. Yeah, yeah. Or you can either over and over again to yourself and practice a line that encapsulates the business outcome and write it down and practice it. I once got to meet Cheryl Sandberg, which I was very excited about, and I knew I would have like 20 seconds with her.
00:37:41
Speaker
and yeah And i i practiced so I practiced my line. We had a partnership with um Facebook at the time that was delivering a lot of revenue for our business. um And so I practiced the little line. I'm so happy to meet you. I'm really thrilled about our partnership. It's delivering X amount to our bottom line and made sure I got that out of my mouth before I said anything. and she was She was everything that is charming and interesting and and lovely. I delivered my little line. I had 20 seconds with her and then that was it. um ye but Very nice. She even posted a picture of it and I sent her a little thank you note and she replied, really can't speak highly enough of wonderful person to meet in that circumstance. And I was like, okay, great. Good for me. I did it. That's it. Job done.
00:38:19
Speaker
Four weeks later, um the CEO sends me a message saying, have you heard the Facebook earnings call? I'm like, what? Oh my God, am I supposed beistic to be listening to that? But he was thrilled because she had mentioned us in the Facebook earnings call, and she'd used my line. It had stuck in her head because it was about numbers. It was about the outcome. It was about what matters to hers and to them, right? And she had repeated it back in the earnings call. And there it was. And there we were quoted in the earnings call. He was so thrilled. The board was thrilled.
00:38:45
Speaker
And so like practicing that, if I had just tried to do that on the spot, I would have reverted to, well, the relationship between our two teams is so great and she did great and moved on. yeah But I had the outcome thing that I'd practiced and managed to, you know, get it out.
00:39:00
Speaker
And I think it's important to note there, right, that she's also a woman. So she is a woman and you didn't have to speak the language of men to a woman to be heard. I think it is just kind of changing the way you speak to people at that sort of level of seniority. Naturally, it it is deemed as the language of men, but if you want to get to that level... Yeah, it's the language of, I don't want to say seniority, but yeah, it's the language of capital. It's how the people in those positions, that's what their focus is, right? So if you want to be there, that's where your focus needs to be. Exactly. it And that's their jobs. And it's irrespective of gender or about capital, right? They're in charge of driving capital and capital is what makes you know all all of our businesses go around. So that's cool. You you just got to put yourself in that and that framework.
00:39:42
Speaker
Yeah,
Conclusion & Gratitude
00:39:43
Speaker
wow, wow, wow. Well, what an incredible conversation. Of course, I would sit here and speak with you for for hours on end, but I'm cautious you have other things to do. But honestly, Vernon, thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your insights. I even learnt a lot from this conversation. So yeah, thank you again, and I really, really appreciate your time. Well, and I just want to say again, thank you for making the space for these conversations. It's a lot of work making the space, making these conversations happen and keeping at it. And so thank you. It's it's through this type of effort that we can keep the conversation going. So thank you.