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Episode 42 - Heleen Hoosemans - Chief People & Impact Officer at ecoligo
18 Plays1 month ago
In today's episode, Sade is joined by Heleen, Chief People & Impact Officer at ecoligo where they discussed the following topics:
- Relocating and working abroad in a different culture.
- The biggest challenge working across different cultures as a woman.
- Speaking the language of men and the importance of this for women in leadership positions.
- The future of the world of leadership.
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Transcript
Helene's Career and Personal Background
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome back to a new episode of Women Talk Tech. Today I'm joined by Helene, Head of HR at Ecoligo. As someone who has travelled throughout her career, Helene shares her experience working in different cultures and the biggest challenges she has found doing this as a woman. We then went on to discuss how speaking the language of men has helped her when working in different cultures and of course now in a leadership role. I hope you love this conversation. So Helene, tell me a little bit more about yourself.
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, so my name is Helene. I think as everybody can hear, I'm from the Netherlands originally and for over a little bit over 10 years now experience working in ah HR, which I kind of stumbled in but has ever since always been my passion and I think for me the biggest passion is always kind of being that super curious person getting to ask everybody lots of questions so I think that's also for me it feels a little bit uncomfortable right now I'm the one answering questions versus ah it's normally me in the driving seat and um I've been very lucky i've I've had a very international career working in the Netherlands working in Switzerland working in China
00:01:21
Speaker
having lived in Malaysia and now ah living here in Germany,
Curiosity in HR and Recruitment
00:01:24
Speaker
in Berlin. And on another spectrum, I'm also very lucky. I have three wonderful boys who keep my private life even more chaotic than my work life. I love that. I love that you said you love asking questions because I am exactly the same. I almost don't stop. It's just like one one question after the other. And then when I started working in recruitment, it came in so handy because I need to ask so many questions and it just felt like this is the right job for me.
00:01:50
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's what I love about being an HR manager. I can ask questions about anything from personal questions to knowing everything about the business. I'm never contained into one corner. Like, yes, my corner is HR.
00:02:03
Speaker
but my business is knowing everybody else's business, which I think is really energizing. um yeah i like My parents used to call it nosy. I call it being curious. um So yeah, now, like you said, now my job is to learn all about other people's business. So yeah, I love it.
Diversity, Inclusion, and Privilege
00:02:18
Speaker
ah And I'm sure we'll kind of dive into it in the podcast, but what does DNI mean to you? And why would you say it's important? I think DNI for me, i It means our foundation, right? Looking at the Netherlands, even like where I grew up, like we're such a tiny country who doesn't have anything from themselves, right? We have no natural resources. The only one thing that the Netherlands is good at is collaboration, finding
00:02:46
Speaker
other people that can support us can help us. And I think for me, that's, that's the core foundation of of DNI, like how are we work together as as a world and combine that together. On the other hand, I also always find it a really scary topic, right? It's it's a topic that you're always coming from yourself. You're coming in my from my perspective, from myself, I'm coming from a place of privilege.
00:03:10
Speaker
know growing up in the Netherlands, ah having had a lot of opportunities ah given to me. um So I also always feel... bit nervous about the topic, right? How can I make my contribution? How can I can put my stamp on this? yeah Yeah, so I would not say I'm confident in the topic. Yeah, but you know, I think it's that the the first step is acknowledging your privilege and acknowledging, you know, the difference that you may have and the difference you then can have. um Because I'm the same, one I noticed I have privileges in the education I had and the background I've come from and and all of that. But I think it's and knowing that and knowing how you can use that to make a difference and not the opposite.
00:03:49
Speaker
Yeah, no, definitely. How can I be
Cultural Adaptability and Growth
00:03:52
Speaker
supporters? Yeah, yeah. And you know, take me back to the beginning of your career. um You mentioned that you've been around the world, ah you've worked in a hell of a lot of different cultures. um What's your experience been of this? Of working in different cultures? Yeah, no, I think my experience is humbling.
00:04:12
Speaker
I started at a really big corporate, which was really international, right? I think even in headquarters, we had maybe like 45 different nationalities. So I felt pretty confident that I knew different cultures and I knew my way around and working with people from all over the world.
00:04:32
Speaker
which was absolutely not true. So then once I actually started moving to other countries myself, which is completely different from working with international people, I really had to kind of humble myself and realize, like, no, actually, I don't know anything. or you know and and And finding myself, OK, what are my values? What is my cultural background? ground What are my beliefs?
00:04:57
Speaker
And then trying to understand how does that match? Where are the commonalities? Where are the pain points? What are things I can learn? And maybe what are some things I can can bring? But for me, I think the key word I would say here is is humbling. yeah Yeah, that's interesting. Because like you, I think when we spoke previously, you mentioned a few things like learning the culture, submerging yourself in the culture, and then of course, finding that middle ground, because those three things are very difficult, but very somewhat the same. um So when you were traveling around, I'm sure you had to learn the different cultures, submerge yourself in it, but then also learn what you could and can't say, what is acceptable versus is what's not acceptable. it's's Yeah, it's a massive learning experience, like I can imagine.
00:05:37
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's also with every culture you're working. For example, my first international move was moving to Switzerland, which was still very comfortable. On the one hand, because it was a very international um environment still, so it wasn't that it was just fully submerged into a Swiss culture. It was still living in Switzerland, but in an and an international environment which I was used to, which was kind of my first introduction. OK, how does it work? like what do i What is different? Why is it different? And how does it come to play in everyday life? But I think my major step was moving to China. um
00:06:13
Speaker
I've never been to China before I actually moved there. um And for me, that was, I really came there thinking like, Oh, no, you know, I've i've worked with lots of different people from Asia, thinking that I could generalize like that. I think that's the first big mistake I made, right? But I think I really came there thinking like, Oh, you know, I have this big backpack full of knowledge and best practices. And you know, I'm going to implement that here.
00:06:41
Speaker
And kind of bringing that arrogance like, oh, I'm going to bring knowledge, um which totally made me fall flat on my face within three months. Right. And for me, that was in China was getting to the basics, right? Like the language, of course, I didn't speak. So getting to know that. A totally different hierarchical level of like, how do you fit into an organization on the one hand as a foreigner?
00:07:11
Speaker
There was one spectrum I had to take into consideration as a person from headquarters, from that cultural perspective, was very different. What is my role as a female leader? Oh my gosh. I feel into that culture, so there were so many layers that I kind of had to figure out what's my place and how do I serve myself kind of in that place. Yeah, that was really interesting.
00:07:34
Speaker
yeah honestly and i can imagine in asia i don't want to seem also arrogant and ignorant it it was very difficult right because of course there's so much that you just don't know even like for for me the biggest challenge would of course be the language and then of course then there's so many other aspects of the Asian culture which you then have to learn and understand why it was important to those who who you were working with. Yeah, and I think it's, of course, i've I've read up about it, right? And I was also very lucky that I received training around it. But then it's still it's so different in knowing the theory than experiencing it yourself. So I think for example, one of the key things in in Chinese culture was very much around saving face.
00:08:13
Speaker
And my interpretation of it was just like, oh, you don't give direct feedback in a meeting. That was my kind of simplification of that, like, oh, you don't embarrass people in public. Until I realized that there's a hundred layers below that cultural value that I have to unpue and get feedback on from others, make mistakes in, and sometimes also just deliberately acknowledge like, I just don't have the sensitivity, like to play at this level and and bring in partners. And particularly for me as an HR manager, in certain situations, I always just had to be honest to myself, like, I cannot manage this delicate situation. I need a local leader who supports me in having this this conversation.
00:08:59
Speaker
Yeah, because I can imagine like learning to do something is very different to it coming very natural and just doing it. So even so, I mean, even the the values or the actions which you learn to do.
00:09:10
Speaker
could have felt very different than someone just doing it because it was what they knew to do. um It would have been very different, I can imagine. Yeah, and that's even like facial expressions. And yeah, it was really funny. and I know this is a podcast, so people don't see my face. But I think everybody that knows me is like, I have a face that is super easy to read, in my opinion, right? And I think also all of my friends, they're like,
00:09:32
Speaker
you know There's no hiding about what I feel. But for example, a lot of feedback I received from my colleagues in China was like that they really had difficulty reading my emotions, which was really a totally different feedback. I was like, huh, but it's for me, it's so obvious. like Everybody can read my my expression. And so how I use my body language is is also something I had to be more aware of. that working here, now again and in Berlin, i can I can really, with my energy, I can bring a group together. yeah In China, I really had to use like different ways of different
00:10:09
Speaker
tools to kind of engage people different communication style, which um took me really a long while actually to get the hang of. And I don't think I ever fully got the hang of, but of course, you know, you really improve. yeah But um yeah, that was really different and and kind of that, I think particularly as an HR manager, you always kind of go, you know, a lot of theory, but in the end, you always go back to your core, like what are my values? What are my beliefs? What feels right?
00:10:38
Speaker
And then for me, that didn't work in China. I really had to get back to a more theoretical place first, get a new bearing and then start implementing it and that's ah in that
Gender Dynamics and Motherhood
00:10:48
Speaker
way. Yeah, yeah. and And how did you find the different cultures as well as being a woman? Because I can imagine equally, it's like another added on um difficulty or challenge, right? um So how did you, especially in aid in China and the other countries you've worked in, how did you find that aspect of diversity?
00:11:08
Speaker
I think actually in the beginning in China I was very aware of it and i and I think for me I unconsciously downplayed myself because I felt there was even a bigger hierarchical difference between myself and for example the old male leadership team.
00:11:30
Speaker
yeah ah Although what I didn't think into consideration in the beginning is that actually what I was mentioning earlier, the different levels of then also being a foreigner is again, a different level of hierarchy, which yeah in my case, actually counterbalanced in that sense. Yeah, it'd be different from from from other female leaders, I think there. um But I do think as as a woman, you always have this extra Even small things you need to take into consideration like how do you say hello? Do you shake hands? Do you give a hug? yes and There's been so many meetings that I've gone into and just naturally I've gone to give a hug because that's what you do and then they put their hand out shaking and I'm like oh this is no different and then sometimes I go into meetings to shake hands and they they go to give a hug and I'm like oh my gosh I don't know what to do now. Yeah and and i six I think
00:12:18
Speaker
or even like what to wear, I think, you know, it it sounds really stupid. But in the beginning in China was I read in this culture book, and which is the dumbest advice I've ever read in the culture books that in China, you always have to wear pantyhoses.
00:12:31
Speaker
yes And I arrived in summer, it was really warm. I was like, you know, if if they say that this is really inappropriate not to do that, of course I'll do it. And then I arrived in the office and I was kind of checking what the other ladies were wearing and like, Oh, no, they do just have like a skirt and like no pantyhose below. So then I just kind of God of the courage to ask somebody about like oh I read it a culture book that this is expected and of course they laughed in my face and like yeah go read this But there is that extra element even like how do you look like right that you should and Look like and I think for me what made a big impact is when I became pregnant though I had my first son was born in China and there was such a cool common commonality I had all of the sudden with my Chinese colleagues, which
00:13:19
Speaker
Like the worries and the concerns and the anxieties as a mom are the same all over the world. Like that's. the habits might be different. Like how do you, what do you eat? What do you don't eat? Do you go to hospital or whatever? Those might be different. But for me, that was kind of like a new culture I added, which all of a sudden you were the same as every other mom in the office or, which I think for me, that really helped in in in kind of building my community. Yeah. And I guess building relationships with those who you may not have connected with on other reasons, right? Whereas now you have a a reason to speak to someone or reason to connect with someone on a different level.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And then also a different, and I think particularly that's something that women, we think we're good at, but we're actually not as showing vulnerability, which in the end is is is the strongest connector and like being each other allies. And I think that that is the beauty of of of motherhood. I do think that creates those connections and you are vulnerable and you feel that and you talk about it, which I think is really then so easy. Then all of a sudden you hear people like,
00:14:26
Speaker
that in my opinion were really cold and then they share their stories and you're like, yeah you know, and you you feel that connects. And I think what's really interesting about motherhood is that you're vulnerable in in various aspects. I think you're vulnerable emotionally right with all the hormones that you have in your body.
00:14:42
Speaker
um You're vulnerable kind of physically in the sense that you can't necessarily hide your baby bump now. It's like everyone can see it. But you're also vulnerable in the sense where like it's a challenge which you've not been through before yet. So you're going through something which you have no idea about and you naturally think everyone else knows what they're doing and really no one else know who they're doing. From what I've heard, I'm not a mother yet myself, but from what I've heard is that everyone goes through the exact same challenges but we're still not yet speaking about them as freely as what we would hope to be.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I think that was really, that was really nice that you you could have these conversations and these questions. And for me, what what I love most about, and I don't want to make this podcast about motherhood, but what I love most about being a mom internationally is you can just steal best practices of every country and every culture, right? Which is, which is, I think for me has been ah really helpful ah in new in doing that. But it's it's definitely, it's also really helped me in connecting and building up building up that that trust. Yeah, yeah. And what would you say would be the what was the biggest challenge working across different cultures as a woman? um Was there anything that really stood out to you and you thought, yeah, I really struggled with that?
00:15:56
Speaker
um I think the biggest struggle is, and I'm not even sure if that's cultural related, the level that you can show emotion and how that is then perceived. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that has overall always been my my biggest struggle as as a female in in in the workforce is um how do I utilize my emotions, but also which words do I use to describe my emotions to fit in? to the expectations that they have of me. And I think also internationally, I really struggle with that, with getting feedback. I go, Oh, you're too emotional versus, no, I'm not emotional. I'm passionate. Or, oh my gosh, angry, like, no, I'm not angry. I'm just disagreeing.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah and you know I do think that's a challenge I mean I've i've only worked in England as of now so i' I only have my own experiences but I do think that's a challenge just everywhere I want to say because I question myself all the time like is this allowed at work like what what's right and wrong like where's the boundary for like where do I stop showing emotion versus like how much can I show and then you know sometimes you hear that you're not showing too much and you're a bit of like a like ah my mom calls me like an ice queen and I'm like no I'm actually really emotional behind the scenes but I have to pretend that I'm okay and that's like the I think that's really hard especially when we know that being vulnerable is actually a strength but we still don't show it yeah yeah and then I've become really deliberate in looking for those words like indeed like even the word that you just mentioned ice queen it's really triggers me because it's
00:17:37
Speaker
It's something you would never use for a guy. No, I'm generally like, I'm the big crybaby out there, but no one ever knows that.
Language and Leadership Challenges
00:17:45
Speaker
it' it's and And it's even also positive words like.
00:17:49
Speaker
Of course, as an HR manager, I see a lot of performance reviews that people write. And and and it's the same, like, um ah for a lot of women, it's also in in a positive way, like, oh, you're really bubbly. And like, bubbly was like, no, girl, I hate that word. If you ever use bubbly to describe a mail manager, like, let's try to find words that we, that we both feel comfortable, like both genders feel comfortable in. Yeah. um And takes us seriously.
00:18:15
Speaker
just as seriously as you would. And I'm still saying that bubbly is ah is a rise or wrong word. And I think particularly being a non-native speaker, I often have less ah opinion about you know what is the right word. like I am also sometimes searching for the right word, but it's at least with every word that we use, we should be able to use it for both genders because otherwise we're just stereotyping.
00:18:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And why do you think that men don't need to worry about this challenge? Because it's a challenge which I've spoken with so many other women about. Everyone has it, but not men. Why is this, do you think? For me, that is because we have adjusted to their language and the words that we have grown accustomed to associate with leadership, with strength, with success are words that we use to describe males.
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah. And I think often there's ah very easy words that you can find that
00:19:15
Speaker
even the word like ice queen, you would probably call a guy strategic, right? Or reserved, really reserved. with them right Which is already way less negative than ice queen. Yeah, yeah. I do think that there's often a male variant of a word while the female one is very negatively perceived. I'm not saying that it should be negatively perceived, but it is negatively perceived. And I think in that sense, it's,
00:19:43
Speaker
And I'm not sure what the right answer is. Should we start using more of the male kind of language, how I would call it? Or should we start rewriting and the the the emotion we feel when we hear these female type of descriptions? Yeah. Or emotional, a bubbly, um ah high-screen, ah bossy.
00:20:07
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it's interesting you said that because I think that the idea of speaking the language is men. It's not even like it's not even the language of men, it's like just the language if we know. It just happens to be the language which men have used and men have used to their own advantage. um And it's interesting you said that because I wonder how you found that in a leadership role. um like Have you had to learn the language of men to be able to progress? How have you found this notion?
00:20:35
Speaker
I think, yes, unconsciously I had to learn yeah finding the right words and being much more deliberate. I think I'm, for example, when I'm disagreeing.
00:20:49
Speaker
I think much longer of how I'm going to um voice my disagreement. Yeah. Which also sometimes also leads me to be the last one to speak up because I'm thinking first, I feel the emotion. I'm, for example, annoyed, right? It will be like totally disagree. But then I don't want to jump in. I don't want to say, I totally disagree. Because I'm afraid that it will be perceived. Helene goes off on the.
00:21:16
Speaker
hysterical rent again. here we got So then I wait. And I think even the same for emails, like I often write an email and only send it the next day, which is good practice, right? I think for anyone who writes an email that can be good practice, but I do think for as a female in a leadership role, i'm I double check. I double check how I say things, when I say things.
00:21:39
Speaker
I think I'm much more making sure with whom I discuss things, yeah yeah how can I get my allies before I bring certain things up. I think for me, particularly as an ah HR manager, i'm I'm really always trying to have the meeting before the meeting to make sure that my voice is heard.
00:22:01
Speaker
and to make sure that I at least have already one person supporting me, that it's not just me, because I know for me, i and and that there's nothing to do with the people I'm in the room with, but automatically, at least at my perception, I'm five points behind. So if I don't get another, yes, I agree with me quickly enough, my voice will be more easily to be dismissed than, you know, a guy can bring the point just a third time, like, no, actually,
00:22:29
Speaker
I've mentioned this. Well, for me, I probably easier. Okay. Nobody supported. Let the point go. Yeah. All versus like mentioning in an emotional way, quote, unquote, and then having a man in the room, just say in a very logical and, um you know, let's say in the language of men and their point can be really understood. But it's literally exactly what you would have said, just in a variety of different words or or kind of meaning, if that makes sense.
00:22:57
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's also and fully agreed. It's then keep on challenging myself. And I do think i've I've grown in that, that you've become more aware of and quickly going through that cycle of like, what does it thus but does this do to me? So for example, I think ah two months ago, I was in a panel.
00:23:15
Speaker
and like I get the panel discussion and unintentionally, i was there were 10 people in the panel, two females, so if you want one with me. And I made a point and then another guy makes the exact same point, but then other people start responding to his point, even though he just used different words. And my first reaction was annoyance, like, okay, you know what? I'll be quiet. And I do think I've become much more better to realize it, realize that I'm now not doing any advantage to myself and then like, no, you know what? I am going to speak up again and try try a different way to make my point across versus I think even maybe five years ago, I would have like, oh you know, this is not the table for me. I'll just be quiet the rest of the conversation.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah, and its and I find it really interesting that these are the experiences of women in panels whereby there are two women and 10 men, or leadership teams where there's one woman and 10 men.
00:24:16
Speaker
I wonder, and I'm interested to kind of see your um take on this, I wonder what would men struggle with the most if it was the other way around? If we had a leadership team or a panel of 20 women or 10 women and one man, what do you think they would struggle with? Would it be the same as what women struggle with in in all male leadership teams? how What's your take on this? So I think research, if you look at the science behind it,
00:24:43
Speaker
you see that for women, if you see their engagement as the only female, for example, in a male-dominated team, will be equally high. And what you what at least the research shows us ah is that if there's a guy in an all-female team, engagement goes down, right? They feel less comfortable, less engaged. They feel less that this is the right place for them to be.
00:25:09
Speaker
not leading to insecurities. I think that's what maybe more of the the area that the women will go into. But I do think it's more that they feel less part of the team. And yeah, I think what has been my experience, to be honest, I haven't been in a lot of groups where I think the first thing is I also i had this a month ago, we were sitting together with And all this it was just kind of by accident that everybody in the room was female. And then one of the guy managers comes in and the first thing he says like, oh, wow, it's a table full of women.
00:25:46
Speaker
And I immediately said, like, well, now you know how I feel every Friday when we have our management team meeting where I'm the only female. And he was kind of like, oh, Elaine, you know? But I was like, but it is true. Like, it was the first thing he noticed and which makes him feel very conscious of himself. Like, he feels so like, oh, wow, i'm I'm a guy. I'm here surrounded by, should I act differently? Well, for me, it's a thing I'm not even that aware of anymore because you're just so used to it.
00:26:14
Speaker
I don't think I've ever been in the leadership team where the majority was female. Oh my gosh. I can so relate to that. And I think even like going to conferences and going to networking events, which I mean, I've been to loads of them and even then I still happen to be one of two or three women in the room or one, even it was funny. I even went to a, um, a female event and it was the other way around. Um, it was like one or two men and it was like, when are we ever going to get to a point whereby it's equal?
00:26:41
Speaker
Will we ever get to a point where it's equal? Will we ever get to a point where anyone who's not of the majority feels like an outsider in a room where they shouldn't, where they've earned their seat at the table, where they have exactly the same education, or even if not the same education, exactly the same experience, if not more, where will when will we actually get that equality?
00:27:02
Speaker
And I think that that's that's a question everybody should be asking themselves, right?
Diverse Leadership and Gender Equality
00:27:07
Speaker
And and then should keep themselves accountable for. Yeah. How do we get that equality? On the one hand, how do we make sure that we can stay ourselves so that we are not even if we're not in the majority, we still feel like we're the majority. I think that's also important, right? It's a lot of it is in perception. And there's also a lot of work that I'm doing on myself and in growing into that. On the other hand, it's also just How do we really get angry enough about this? And by really being angry, not just, oh yeah, I've noticed it or like, oh, it would be nice. No, like this is just wrong. And then and then secondly, how do we dare to make sacrifices to make this happen?
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. We feel that business results are being heard. And I think, you know, that's in the end, what we all want. and Like, at least in the corporate ah setting, right? Of course, it's different ah overall for the world, I think also, the world would be a much more beautiful place if we have ah more diversity in in the in the government. But if I'm looking at just my my playing field in the corporate world, or the company world, like decisions will be better if we have more diversity.
00:28:20
Speaker
from a cultural and, of course, a gender perspective, right? and And all levels of diversity. Yeah, yeah. And what do you think we can do to change the world of leadership? Like, what do you think needs to be done to to get to a point where we do have that? If there is anything that you think, yeah, if we start doing this, other things will fall into place. Tricky question. I think a big part and comes with how do we educate our children? Yeah.
00:28:49
Speaker
And that is on the one hand role modeling. So that's something that my husband and I, myself are very much busy with. Like, how do we make sure that they see both of us doing equal things in the work? Does it mean that everything is 50, 50, right? But they they see us doing the same type of tasks. Yeah. But I think even more importantly, it's wording. Like, how do we choose? And it sounds so simple. How do we choose the right books to read to our kids? Where you have both male and female.
00:29:18
Speaker
and people of color and every other important item of diversity in those books, being representative, doing the same type of tasks, non-stereotypical. Yeah.
00:29:31
Speaker
and and having that language in there. And I think for me, it really starts with that. And and and I'm noticing because for in my, like I have three boys, and my oldest son asked me recently, like, Oh, mommy, can I join ballet because his best friends are all in the ballet class. And my initial response, i luckily, I didn't say it out loud, but my thought was, no, like,
00:29:55
Speaker
Why would you go to ballet? like You can maybe go to a breakdancing class if you want to dance. but yeah and But then I was, no, stop myself if he wants to do a ballet. How cool, how nice. He's six. Let him explore what he likes to do. But even I'm noticing there are so many boundaries that I'm putting up for him.
00:30:18
Speaker
Because those are so ingrained in how I see the different stereotypes between genders. And I do feel like if if if somehow I manage to break those, by making it for him, there that there's no there's a difference between individuals. And of course there's a difference between genders. We also should not be naive. There there are differences.
Balancing Professional and Personal Life
00:30:38
Speaker
But there there are no differences in what we can accomplish in life. What we love to do in life. And I really hope, and so for me, it does start with the foundation, even though I also realize that that means that it's another maybe 15 years. Yeah. yeah um and i think And I think the second thing is just looking at if I'm talking with my friends,
00:31:03
Speaker
who are all struggling with having to just be successful in both fronts, right? You have to be the best mom. And I do think at this point there's so much like,
00:31:14
Speaker
you have to be super involved, you have to be super creative and loving and gentle and everything has to be the best there. And I think which is amazing, we are also to be expected to be the best at work, which i think yeah accomplishment, right? I am happy that at least that expectation is also there now. And I think what we now see need to start doing is Women is be more forgiving to ourselves because I do think that is something that women don't have. And I think a lot of guys are more forgiving. I think guys are sometimes forgiving. And for example, saying, you know what? This three months is super busy at work. That means I will not be the best father. Yeah. Be a shitty father, but I'm not going to be the best, but I know I have a partner. I can rely on these three months. And I think women, we need to start doing that. And it doesn't matter if it's private life kids or if it's taking care of your parents.
00:32:04
Speaker
exploring your your private hobbies or contributing to society right but it is how can we forgive ourselves that we don't have to be the best at everything at the same time yeah and i even think like it's even like further it's like not even about forgiving well it is a lot about forgiving yourself especially in the idea about motherhood but i think it's about not even trying to do everything i think men are not all men but i think not a generalization here but i think men are really good at saying, I'm not going to do this, I'm going to focus on this. Whereas I think as I've always tried to just do everything and be the best in each aspect of life. And it's it's not impossible, but it's hard. And I think that's where you notice that you fall short in certain aspects. And then like you said, you don't you're not forgiving yourself enough for for falling short when really, if we help us off in the beginning by not trying to do everything and saying, hey, I'm going to be the best I can be, and I'm going to do the best I can be in all aspects.
00:32:58
Speaker
or certain assets are important, you know? Yeah, no, I fully fully agree. And it's yeah, and I think that's also something and one and going back to I don't have girls, but for all the moms out there of little girls, how do you make sure you don't put the pressure on from day one? And for me always a key example is but I have a good friend and she has a boy and a girl.
00:33:23
Speaker
The girl has swimming classes on Monday and her son has swimming classes on Tuesday. If her son leaves his bag at home, she will go home and bring it to him in school and say like, you dummy, here's your bag. With her daughter, she holds her more accountable. And she says like, you knew you had swimming classes. Why didn't you bring them? And we had the conversation about it. She said like, I do this unconsciously. Like it's not something I plan to do, but it's,
00:33:49
Speaker
Again, I think starting at this foundation, how do we build this foundation that we don't expect, we have the same expectations. Let me say it like that. And then we can also be kinder to ourselves and realize, you know, it cannot all be done. We have to make choices.
00:34:05
Speaker
and and follow those choices and and stick by them and and be proud of them. Yeah, I'm laughing because when I was living with my parents, my dad is, my mum is the cook and my dad was the cleaner. You know how like, you know, you have certain roles. Of course, everyone like intertwined, but my dad would never be in the kitchen. um But my mum would refuse to clean. And normally like you have the the woman doing the the housework, the cleaning, everything. And she was like, no, you know, you're going to do this. And to be fair, my dad's now the best cleaner there is like the house is spotless.
00:34:35
Speaker
the cushions are like, you know, poof to a like pristine condition. But yeah, it's it's like that. I mean, I've grown up in a house where I saw different, you know, my parents doing completely different roles than what you maybe be would see in a different household.
00:34:47
Speaker
They both went to work, they both came home, they both kind of looked after the house. And whilst they did have different roles, they weren't like gender specific. Like my dad could cook, he wouldn't, but he could. um My mum would clean, but she wouldn't because that's my dad's job and not my dad's job, but it was my dad's job. And I think it's things like that, like seeing my dad even like clean the house at home made me realize that that's not just my job, it can be my partner's job in the future.
Representation and Solution-Focused Approach
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, no, no, definitely. And I think it needs showing those things are is critical in the foundation. But I think also at work, right. And that's also why diversity matters, not only inclusion. um And that that's also something, of course, we're in our company struggling with, like, how do you make sure that you you don't only only talk about, oh, yeah, everybody can be a leader, like, no, we need to show it. And that's why representation matters. Yeah, yeah. think um a diverse group on the top as management is important because it shows the way. yeah Yeah, I think at the top is important, but also coming in as well because those who are coming in and starting are hope ah who will be at the top in at some point, hopefully, right? So having that diverse talent pool, that diversity in in the kind of pipeline, junior, senior, whatever the case may be, just so that everyone that actually gets to the top has an opportunity to do that. Yeah, and and and I think also,
00:36:06
Speaker
Keeping yourself accountable in that process of where you have impact. Yeah. Because ever it's so easy to point fingers like, oh, it's because not enough women are in university or like after university they drop out or actually there are no women in tech. Everything can be true, but it doesn't matter. You should look at what's the impact you can make. Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:28
Speaker
And what can we do to really change that? Like my my my boss always says here, solutions, not problems. Like, yeah, we see the problems, but what are we doing to really change that?