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Wise-Hearted Ones: Why Your Art Matters
377 Plays1 year ago
Wise-Hearted Ones: Why Your Art Matters with Deborah Sokolove
Within the strokes of art, we find whispers of the divine, a symphony of colors echoing the call of the soul.
In this episode, Lisa Smith, the creative mind behind Convergence Art Initiative, orchestrates a captivating dialogue with her mentor and artistic luminary, Deborah Sokolove, about why art matters
As the conversation weaves through the challenges artists face in a commercialized world, the duo illuminates the need for intentional engagement with art within the church.
Interested in Deborah’s Books, get your copy:
Check out Deborah's art on her website: https://dsokolove.com/
Follow Deborah:
Facebook: @deborahsokolove
Instagram: @dsyakushiji
Looking for a church that invites you to be not just a member but an artist in the divine masterpiece, Deborah invites you: seekerschurch.org
On March 22 - 24, we invite you to join us for The Breath and The Clay 2024, A Creative Arts Gathering in Winston Salem NC. Register now!
How does your creative calling resonate with the Wise-Hearted Ones?
Join the conversation at www.soulmakers.org/bemakedo
Share your thoughts about artists' divine role in God's epic narrative.
TikTok: @bemakedopodcast
Instagram: @bemakedopodcast
Facebook: @bemakedopodcast
Subscribe and follow Be.Make.Do. wherever you get your podcasts.
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Transcript
Introduction and Conference Announcement
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, welcome to Be Make Do, a Soul Makers podcast where we talk about what it takes to pursue your calling as a culture maker with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom. I'm your host, Lisa Smith, and I'm here with producer Dan ABH. Hello, everyone. Yay. And we are just so excited to encourage and inspire you to become who you were created to be, to make what you were created to make, and to do what you were created to do.
00:00:40
Speaker
So we are in our second season, which is very exciting. Yes. And I have some great news. We are going to be heading down
Exploring the Tabernacle Story and Art
00:00:50
Speaker
on the road. We're going to be heading down to North Carolina in March for the Breath and the Clay Conference with artists, which is so it's such a fantastic. I've never been able to be there before.
00:01:01
Speaker
But it's an outgrowth of the Makers and Mystics podcast. Yes. So we're going to be there. We're going to take a crew. We're going to have some fun and meet some other artists and hopefully get to meet some of you in person. I would love that. And I'm really excited to get out of the D.C. area for a few days. Yeah, very stoked on the trip.
00:01:20
Speaker
So yeah, if you are interested in a road trip yourself or live in the area of North Carolina, you can check out in the show notes for all the details there and you can go and register. That'll be March 22nd through the 24th. All right, so let's dive into the second episode in this new series, The Wise Hearted Ones, exploring the creation of the Tabernacle story in Exodus.
Deborah Sokolov: Art and Faith
00:01:45
Speaker
And really underneath all of that is answering this bigger question of
00:01:50
Speaker
why does it matter that you make art? So we are going to have a conversation with Deborah Sokolov, the former director of the Center for Theology and the Arts at Wesley Theological Seminary, and get into the answer of that question. Deborah is a great person for us to talk to about this because she is an artist, she's a theologian, she's a teacher, she's a writer, and she has been working with artists forever.
00:02:18
Speaker
She's somebody that I met when I was trying to figure out this combination of what happens with this art and faith thing as I graduated from seminary and was really, really helpful in helping me to understand visual arts and ways that we might be able to do things at Convergence. So I'm excited to be able to introduce you to her. So let's get started. Let's do it.
00:02:53
Speaker
So I have with me here today my good friend and mentor, Deborah Sokolov. She's an artist, teacher, and author. She's the former director of Henry Luce III Center for the Arts and Religion at Wesley Theological Seminary, where she's now professor emerita of art and worship. She's a member of Seekers Church in DC, which is in the tradition of the Church of the Savior. And as an author, her two most recent books are Sanctifying Art, Inviting Conversations Between Artists
00:03:22
Speaker
theologians and the church, art for faith's sake, and performing the gospel, exploring the borderland of worship, entertainment, and the arts, both
Finding and Balancing One's Calling
00:03:32
Speaker
fantastic books. And you can see her artwork at her website, desocalov.com. And we'll put all of those links and everything like that in the show notes so that you can
00:03:43
Speaker
go and visit. But I know you, Deborah, as a mentor and a teacher and an incredible encourager. You were, I mean, you were a huge piece of my development as I was starting Convergence and really not necessarily knowing what I was doing, helping to shape my thinking about arts and Christian community. So I'm really excited to have you here. So thank you. Thanks for being here.
00:04:10
Speaker
Well, thank you for that affirmation. I often think that helping other people find their true voice and their true calling is my true calling, and that everything else that I do is in service of that. That's a very peculiar place to be, you know, nobody pays you to do that. No, but it's not a job that somebody hires you to do.
00:04:32
Speaker
And yet it really is the thing that I think is the most important thing that I've done in my life and that I'm the most proud of. And so your affirmation that I've helped you in those ways is just... Absolutely. I think it's so beautiful that you see it that way because that is definitely a huge, huge gift that you're probably given all the time. You don't even realize it in some cases. And through your work, through your books, through your work, all of these things.
00:05:02
Speaker
Well, it's interesting you talk about that idea of that part of your calling that like nobody pays you, it's not your job title. But we talk about calling a lot at Convergence and Soul Makers as being about more than just what you do, that job title or that mission or whatever, but like it being tied to becoming who you were created to be, who God created you to be, and then focusing on those
00:05:31
Speaker
Making the things you were created to make is the way that we put it, but really developing the gifts and talents that you have and that those can be used in all kinds of circumstances, regardless of your circumstances and the circumstances change. But I was wondering, yeah, to hear a little bit more on your thoughts on call in particular, because I know you've given this a great deal of thought.
00:05:55
Speaker
Well, the notion of call is really central to the church that I belong to, and that we try to do everything out of call. Now, not everything can be done out of call. There are some times you just have to do something because it's got to be done, whether you feel like it or not, and whether you're called to it or not, other than a more general call to be a decent human being. I don't know, if the sink
00:06:24
Speaker
is overflowing, it's your job to do the best you can to stop it, even though there was something else you wanted to be about and that might be more lovely to do.
Art and Spiritual Disciplines
00:06:34
Speaker
But there are certain things that as human beings and as followers of Jesus that we are called to do, that have nothing to do with our particular calling that brings us joy and love, you know, all those things.
00:06:49
Speaker
And then even within those particular callings of the particular thing or things we are called to, because I do believe that our particular calling changes over time and in different stages of our life, even within that particularity of call, there are things that just aren't fun.
00:07:16
Speaker
It's not all joy and happiness and bluebirds and butterflies all the time. Sometimes it's just hard work. When I do a project,
00:07:28
Speaker
at the beginning, it's all, oh, I can't wait to do it. And all, you know, all that wonderful excitement at the beginning. And then there's the middle part that I refer to typically as donkey work. Yes, we're all familiar with that. And you just have to keep going, even when you're not inspired. An artist friend of mine and older, she was a mentor to me, actually, I think she
00:07:58
Speaker
I haven't seen her in many years and I believe she has died. She used to say, every day you have to present the body. Even if all you do is arrange
Rest in Creative Processes
00:08:10
Speaker
your paint or sweep the floor, every day you need to go into the studio and do something. And the term she used was to present the body. And she was very conscious that this was a reference to being part of the body of Christ,
00:08:29
Speaker
We present our physical body and we become part of the body in the solitude of the studio. Yeah.
00:08:38
Speaker
I love that. And I love these ways of thinking about artistic craft that link to spiritual craft, you know, spiritual disciplines because I encounter people who are stuck as artists or oftentimes some artists who are very involved in church can kind of sometimes feel like
00:09:01
Speaker
a little bit guilty about getting to make art. It's like I get to do this fun thing, this special thing, whatever, and they get stuck because that seems frivolous or it's taking time that I could be doing something more important. And when you shift it to this idea of having a responsibility,
00:09:25
Speaker
to develop, to actually just show up. That is part of living out the call. I think that takes on a whole different tone and an approach of what it is you're actually doing when you're going into the studio or sitting down to write or whatever. Yeah, absolutely. If you're an artist, it's important to take that seriously. If that is your calling from God,
00:09:54
Speaker
then it's important to take it seriously, whatever that is. And taking it seriously takes a lot of different forms.
Art Beyond Productivity
00:10:02
Speaker
I myself do not present the body every day. My own pattern, which I learned to recognize a long time ago, is that I have very long fallow periods when I'm doing a whole lot of other things, either because of necessity in my life or because of
00:10:24
Speaker
because I'm empty, because my well is empty, and I need time for it to fill back up. And so I typically have very long fallow periods, sometimes lasting several years at a time, when I'm not consciously or intentionally or visibly making art of any kind. And that is all grist for the mill.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that is hard to understand and accept, even for artists. I'm thinking about that for myself. I feel like I should be productive and got to turn it out, but it doesn't work that way. And I know from experience that if I take a full day and I'm gardening or I take a walk or I'm just not doing anything, that when I come back to whatever I'm working on,
00:11:21
Speaker
it can be a 15 minute period that then it all just pours out. And it feels like, oh, I should have been working for eight hours and breaking for 15, but it doesn't work that way. And even like you're saying years of a fallow period of understanding that, like you said, that's grist for the, that is a part of living into your call, of being able to understand and listen to
00:11:46
Speaker
your body and your mind and your health as to what do you need right now in order to kind of, I don't know, prepare the vessel or whatever for what God's going to do through that. It's a different kind of work. It is. And it's also very counter-cultural. What you just said about feeling like, oh, if I'm an artist and I need to work eight hours a day or 40 hours a week or whatever at my art,
00:12:11
Speaker
That is such a capitulation to the work, you know, I dare I say capitalist way of thinking, the workaholic way of thinking that we have inherited from our culture. That if I'm an artist, then I need to justify my existence by working at my art as though it were my job.
00:12:35
Speaker
And I have lived that way a lot of times in my life, and it's kind of crazy making. It is. Especially because it doesn't work that way. Yeah, it doesn't work that way. It's so frustrating. And yet we've taken in all of these messages from the culture that we live in that we have to work, work, work. We have to be productive.
00:13:01
Speaker
We have to justify our lives. I once said to somebody in my church that I feel like I have to justify my existence all the time. And he just kind of looked at me and he said, well, you're a Christian, you are justified. That's great. You're like, oh. Okay, I need to rethink that one. You know,
Art's Purpose: Joy and Presence
00:13:27
Speaker
Jesus didn't work all the time.
00:13:29
Speaker
Right. He both did and didn't. You know, he was always himself. And I think that's one of the things we need to learn as followers of Jesus, that being who we truly are is really what we're supposed to be doing. And
00:13:52
Speaker
If that means I need to take a nap in the afternoon, I get to. And if that means I'm in an inspired period and I need to spend 20 hours a week, a day rather, 20 hours a day in the studio and neglect everything else in my life.
00:14:09
Speaker
then that's what I need to be doing at that time. Right, those seasons. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and you're right. It's learning to trust, to trust enough that your, that impulse or that instinct is okay. And I think, you know, you're talking about Jesus, that he was, it was trusting the appropriateness, doing what's appropriate in this moment, as opposed to, yeah, what justifies the use of my time right now, getting paid. And sometimes he was, you know,
00:14:39
Speaker
making food for 5,000 people. And sometimes he was often solitude in the desert or wherever he was, I don't know where he was. And I think as artists, being an artist is an identity. It's not, it's who I am, whether I am making art today or not. It's a way of approaching life that is different
00:15:07
Speaker
than having a nine to five job. It's different than being a mechanic who works, you know, from eight in the morning to four in the afternoon fixing cars and then gets to do something else. I mean, maybe being a mechanic is that person's calling. My brother-in-law is a mechanic and it is his calling, but he also has other things in his life that he likes to do. And that's fine because we all have a lot of things in our lives that we like to do.
00:15:35
Speaker
But as an artist, we don't have to get our living that way. It's nice if we can, but sometimes I have thought, often I have thought that the whole commercial enterprise of art really poisons the joy of art. Once I start trying to work out, you know, what do I have to price this painting at in order to justify all the hours I spent on it?
00:16:03
Speaker
Could anyone afford to buy it? Right. And do I want the person who can afford to buy it be the one who has that work? Yeah. And I would find myself in the middle of a painting doing math problems in my head, how many dollars per hour was I earning or could I possibly earn so that I could make a living at art? And that was probably the most crazy making period of my life that I needed to I needed to pay the bills.
00:16:34
Speaker
But trying to do that by making art when then that prices the market, the art out of reasonable ordinary people to have it.
00:16:46
Speaker
Which is always the whole point is I want people to enjoy. Yeah. Why are why are you making if you can? Yeah Well, I think that I mean this conversation and then the other side of that So if you get to the point where you say, okay, well the market is problematic so I I'm I am an artist like you said the the identity and I make art because that's just what I do then the other side of that is
00:17:14
Speaker
What am I trying to say? So to kind of counteract the way that that's received, that I make art because that's who I am. And everybody else in the world is like, okay, well, that's nice, but, you know.
00:17:28
Speaker
And so then we try to justify it with the commercial end of things and that doesn't quite fit right either. And there's all kinds of different ways that people try to justify why art making is good because it helps you do other things or helps people do other things. But isn't there something more than that, deeper than that? Like why does it matter that we
00:17:52
Speaker
make art in the church, in the world, especially when there's so many things, you know, the world is on fire. Why does it matter that art making happens? What I've come to understand, and it took me a long, long time to get to this understanding, and I don't believe it's the final understanding, but it's the one I'm living with right now, is that whatever we do,
00:18:22
Speaker
whether it's art making or anything else, that our task is really to increase the joy in the world. And one of the ways to do that is through enjoying what I do. And that's not a superficial, you know, la di da, I'm happy, but that deep satisfaction that what I'm doing
00:18:53
Speaker
keeps me in the moment and keeps me connected with this moment and with the world around me in a lot of different ways. If I am spending most of my day weeping and being depressed because of the state of the world, I am not increasing the joy in the world.
00:19:19
Speaker
I have friends who think that's their job, is to know about every terrible thing that's happening in the world. And I'm thinking, how do you, you can't fix any of it. You can fix, maybe you can fix this little tiny piece of it, but you can't fix all of it. Why do you need to know all of that? And they'll give me good rational reasons or maybe even good faith reasons.
00:19:46
Speaker
But the answer for me is I don't need to do that. What I need to do is notice the world around me and notice the world within me.
00:20:00
Speaker
That is what artists also help others do through their work, is to draw attention. And as we're kind of talking about the cultural values, what we're kind of saying is that there needs to be this understanding of this valuing of that, that being attentive to this moment and to what's going on inside of me and then that pouring out into how I interact with you,
00:20:28
Speaker
Haha. Not only is that a valuable thing that we see as artists, but that's kind of a big part of what it means to be a Christian, right?
Art, Activism, and Public Engagement
00:20:35
Speaker
You know, that's what Jesus was kind of getting at. Exactly.
00:20:39
Speaker
So there's this modeling of that and inviting through our through our work, inviting other people into that as well. Yeah. My church is filled with activists and, you know, they're out there demonstrating for really good causes. And I don't fault them at all. In fact, I sometimes think, gee, I should be doing that with them. But then I realize that if I were doing that with them, then I'm not spending the
00:21:09
Speaker
hours that I need to be spending writing liturgy that nourishes them. And so that's another piece of my calling as an artist, as a poet, my poetic form is liturgical prayer. And so if I shirk that time of carefully crafting the words that the congregation are going to say,
00:21:39
Speaker
because I'm out there demonstrating or I'm writing letters or I'm doing all those things that all my activist friends do and that I feel guilty that I'm not doing. You know, I have to remind myself that this feeds the congregation. Yeah. This feeds my activist friends. And the more that I am able to attend to the world around me, whether that is the people that I see or
00:22:08
Speaker
whatever it is, and bring that back into the church and into the prayers of the church, then I am doing something. That's what I have to remind myself all the time. Then I am doing something for the betterment of the world in a very visible and real way. But again, this is part of long years of practice and reflection on
00:22:35
Speaker
Why do I do what I do? Why do I live as not just a visual artist, but as I begun to claim the role of poet and that liturgical prayer is the form my poetry takes. It's not private poetry. It's public poetry. And just as I more and more have become have become appreciative of public art in all of its forms, you know, you walk down the street and you see a sculpture or you see a
00:23:02
Speaker
mural or something. And you can't help but engage with it. Yeah, yeah. And usually it's a lot of public art is very whimsical. And yeah, goodness. And the city street with sirens blaring and people asking you for money and people stopping you for whatever good cause they want you to sign a petition for, or whatever, you know, you're walking down the street, you can't even have your own thoughts. And yet, you know,
00:23:30
Speaker
here's this piece of art that just makes you smile. Yeah. Or surprise or confusion or whatever it is.
Societal Views on Art and Support
00:23:38
Speaker
Whatever, whatever. And somebody had to spend a lot of time doing that. And as a society, if we don't value that, then what are we, are we supposed to just work all the time? Oh my goodness.
00:24:00
Speaker
You know, again, it's coming back to that workaholic culture that doesn't value art or what artists do. But we want those things. I mean, all the people who go to the movies and watch Netflix, you know, we do value that stuff, but we don't want to pay for it. And we don't want to give people time to do it. Right. But somehow we want it. Yeah, it's very
00:24:24
Speaker
schizophrenic. Yeah. I really wonder what that disconnect is between that understanding of I'm surrounding myself with this stuff, but it isn't valuable. But I guess it's because of that production thing. Yeah. And because in our culture, we think only serious things are important
00:24:48
Speaker
and fun things are not important, even though we spend millions of dollars building theme parks, amusement parks, or whatever. And yet our discourse is that if it's dark and
00:25:08
Speaker
hard, then it's important. This is part of part of what we're wanting to explore at Soul Makers is how do you help artists have an awareness of the possibility, even though the understanding generally is not there of what the value is of art making or the potential for what art can do. And clearly you can't go into the studio and say, OK, I'm going to I'm going to make that piece of art that's going to change the world. You know, good luck with that one.
00:25:37
Speaker
But still there's how can we enter into that space with an understanding that there's the potential for that and and even in filmmaking, I mean there's certainly You know, there's political there's Cultural perspectives. I'm you know, I'm sure there's even there's always spiritual perspectives and everything Like how how do we kind of become aware of that?
00:26:03
Speaker
in those industries so that as a Christian you're entering it with this whole tool bag, this whole understanding of things that you're capable of talking about. But maybe it's not, it doesn't have to be a Jesus movie. Maybe trusting the art piece of it a little bit more and having a deeper set of theological tools maybe.
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah, and that is one of the problems of the relationship of the church and the arts, is that the church wants to control the theological message. Right. And historically, the church has been, especially, you know, since the Reformation, the Protestant churches, but for a certain, to a large extent, the Catholic Church as well, wants to control the theological message and artists are dangerous. Right.
00:26:55
Speaker
When you give artists free reign, you don't know what they're going to say. They don't know what they know. We don't know what we're going to say. We don't know what we're saying until we've said it. Right. Well, and I find it interesting, too. I am surprised at how many artists, writers, dancers, whatever, end up in seminary or taking classes because I think if they have that sense of, I think this is for something bigger than me.
Artists in Theology and Church
00:27:22
Speaker
I don't know how to, you know, they're not necessarily finding those tools in their church. And so they go to seminary to develop those tools, but then even so, there's this struggle once you've gained that knowledge and you're starting to apply it. And it's like, okay, now where do I use this? Because I think, like I wonder if churches were able to see artists as,
00:27:49
Speaker
you know, art making as ministry, not in the church necessarily, but maybe in the church as well. Like as a tool for theological reflection, would that attitude shift help everybody know what to do with art and artists better? Yeah. It's just an ongoing project.
00:28:19
Speaker
I think you're right that a lot of artists do wind up in seminary. I knew a lot. I'm sure you do. I'm sure you probably know all of them.
00:28:30
Speaker
I, this reminds me, I remember when we were close to the beginning and starting Convergence and I was talking with a lot of people and talking with artists locally about what we do and inviting them in and that kind of stuff. And I remember talking to this one girl who was an artist and she was not a Christian and she just kind of had this puzzled look on her face. And she was, because normally people are like, oh, art in the church. Oh, that's interesting. But she was like,
00:28:54
Speaker
Well, I can see what artists would have to offer the church, but I'm not sure what the church would offer to artists. I've never heard that one before. That's really interesting. There's problematic there. Of course, on the other side of it is churches are often unintentionally saying, I know what we have to offer the artist, but I'm not sure what the artist
00:29:16
Speaker
has to offer us. But if you're not thinking about the general thing of what churches have to offer all people,
00:29:26
Speaker
I think it's a really good question of what do churches offer artists specifically and what do artists specifically offer churches? Because I think that it might be in that specificity that the interesting conversation is hanging out because maybe there is this specific role that is undefined and that's part of what's so uncomfortable between pastoral leadership and artists. They're two different kinds of leadership.
00:29:56
Speaker
Really, I think. Yeah, they are. One of the problems that just leaps into mind as you frame the question that way is that the word artist encompasses so much. Yeah, sure. So it's relatively easy to hang a painting on the wall.
00:30:27
Speaker
churches do that. A lot of churches do use their narthex as exhibition space. And it's wonderful. And it doesn't compete with the worship because the worship happens on the other side of the door, right for the narthex. So it's, it's an experience that people can have, but it isn't considered part of worship. And that's one kind of relationship. It's a different kind of relationship if
00:30:55
Speaker
we invite the art making to happen in the room. And then, you know, it just depends. I know there are some visual artists who have taught themselves how to paint in public. And so they paint while there's music going on or while there's a sermon going on or something. And then, you know, the big reveal and everybody goes, oh, and they think that's what art is about. Right.
00:31:23
Speaker
And I find that very problematic. Not so much for the artists, but for the audience who think that that's what how art gets made. And that art doesn't take time that you can do this wonderful finished painting in 20 minutes, right? And you can't, I mean, you can, but it's a very particular kind of art. And somebody else's art that doesn't lend itself to that, or that doesn't lend itself to
00:31:54
Speaker
being topical because that's another thing that, you know, if your painter whose work responds to what's going on in the absolute immediate, then people respond to it a particular way. But if your work is more ethereal or more
00:32:13
Speaker
general or more interior, I mean more anything than responding to the immediate issue, whether the issue is political or climate change or whatever, then it's devalued in a lot of ways by the public. And by the public, I also mean by congregations who legitimately want to help them know how to think. I don't
00:32:40
Speaker
It's not wrong. It's just not the only thing that visual artists do. And then when you expand the word artist to mean poets and different kinds of musicians and different kinds of, you know, screenwriters and playwrights and actors, then you're in yet again a different universe of how that can interact with the life of the church. Yeah.
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah, I just think there's I think there's a maybe a misunderstanding like you're talking about the painting and, you know, during the sermon time or whatever. I think that's a misunderstanding of what the real power and place of art is. Yeah. So I mean, just as you were talking, I was thinking was what can the art what can the church offer an artist? One of the things that the church can offer an artist is
00:33:39
Speaker
genuine thoughtful engagement with their art. And if indeed you won, we, the church, a church featured a particular artwork and said, let's spend five minutes of the word time just looking at this piece of work. Just stop talking. I'm not going to explain it to you. Right.
00:34:09
Speaker
Just look at this thing and maybe it's big enough for the whole congregation to see or maybe it's a small thing and then you can magnify it with projection or whatever. Don't play music. Distract. It doesn't need help. Let's just look at this object for five minutes, which will feel like an eternity that pretty much any Christian congregation or pretty much any American who isn't already a meditator, right?
Economic Challenges for Artists
00:34:37
Speaker
Um, five minutes, let's spend some time looking at this and then let's spend the rest of the allotted 20 minutes or whatever you allot for a sermon for responses from the group in the hearing of the artist. Yeah. That is something, you know, if I hear, Oh, you're so talented one more time, I'm going to scream, right? No, I'm not so talented. What is this work?
00:35:06
Speaker
make you think about or feel or something. And so frame that conversation that way. That is one of the most important gifts that the church can give to an artist because they never get that anywhere except maybe in a crit group of other artists.
00:35:24
Speaker
And you know, as you're answering this, realizing that this is also probably the answer to the other side of the question of how do we help artists become more theologically aware or aware of how their work can help people learn to see by exactly that, by hearing that response, those responses, then they're able to, I have seen that, I have definitely witnessed that as people get those responses, they realize, oh,
00:35:53
Speaker
Oh wow, I had no idea. Or I can ask this question in this way, which is going to prompt somebody to think even deeper. So it's interesting that what may be part of that training is also part of the gift. Yes. Yes. That's really cool. Yeah.
00:36:12
Speaker
Well, Deborah, before, this has been an amazing conversation, but before we kind of wrap up, I just kind of wondered, as someone who has mentored and taught and nurtured artists of all sorts over so many years, what questions do you see kind of popping up over and over or struggles for those artists at this intersection of art and faith? And how do you encourage
00:36:42
Speaker
artists or what do you kind of find yourself telling them? Well, people do bump up against the making a living thing, you know, everything from how should I price this work to, you know, should I give up my day job? Right. You know, what happens if I give up my day job? Right. Those are really, I think everybody runs into those. Yeah, sure.
00:37:12
Speaker
We used to live in a universe back in the time when people lived in mostly villages and small towns where, you know, there was somebody who, one or two people who played musical instruments and a few people who had beautiful singing voices and maybe a really good storyteller and somebody who knew how to make beautiful carvings and
00:37:39
Speaker
everybody relied on those people in the village, in their village. And so there was room in the universe for a whole lot of people who did those things because everybody served their own village. In our commercial world, there is less and less room for more and more people who have this calling and these innate desires to do things.
00:38:09
Speaker
because most of the space is taken up by the famous people. So we don't invite the best singer that we personally know to entertain at the wedding reception. We hire a DJ to play the music of the famous records, or whatever.
00:38:40
Speaker
We don't, we aren't content in our churches to be the choir, let alone let the better singers in our group be the choir. We hire professionals to fill in the roles in the choir so that the choir sounds professional. So our values have been warped and we haven't, and we no longer give space
00:39:10
Speaker
for the local people who really are often quite good to do what they do.
Church and Community Support for Local Artists
00:39:20
Speaker
And so I think visual artists particularly have a really hard time because there's no place for them to do work casually, you know? But that's because we have created a world, we collectively, our society has created a world in which there's no more room
00:39:41
Speaker
for these local expressions. So the church can do better. The church can say, who we have is who we have. And so who will sing? It's so interesting because I'm very much
00:40:02
Speaker
marinating in the questions around what is the role of the artist in the 21st century, given all of these constraints. And yet, at the same time, there's obviously questions about how the church operates and what does the church look like going forward in the same way. And I feel like in everything you just said, to me, I saw those two questions come together and see how much they really can be integrated, the answers to both of those questions.
00:40:32
Speaker
so much can happen if churches and that traditional role that the artists play, if we could all kind of get together, there's a lot. There's just so much we could do in our local communities using both of these because they are meant to go together. They are. There's no question about it. We actually can't have church without the arts.
00:40:54
Speaker
from the building that we meet in, which is architecture, the chairs we sit on, somebody had to design them and build them. We can't do it without the arts, but we have to do it thoughtfully with the arts and not always calling the same two artists. Who else gets to do it? We need a more participatory model and in the end,
00:41:24
Speaker
I really believe that's what the church can offer the world. This is not the model of the world. This can be the model of the church so that the church isn't always chasing what the world teaches, but saying, here's another way. This is what the kingdom of God looks like. This is how we love one another.
00:41:48
Speaker
by making beautiful things together or making maybe awkward, strange looking things together. Maybe singing off key and still appreciating the oddness of every voice. And that's what we, Jesus said, let them see how you love one another.
00:42:14
Speaker
and show the world a different way than this crazy workaholic star system that we have where only the stars get millions of dollars and most people get nothing. But the church doesn't have to be like that. The church doesn't have to be a hierarchical structure. This church can distribute its leadership and distribute the art making and distribute the joy.
00:42:40
Speaker
It's just, yeah, mic drop, right?
00:43:01
Speaker
You know, one of the biggest things that I take away from that conversation was her advocating for the way that the church can have become a model for a different way of doing this by using local artists, by supporting people in your community. And I think beyond churches, but just Christians in general, like to have this supporting your neighbor,
00:43:27
Speaker
Artist to hire the person that lives in your neighborhood or is local as opposed to like the wedding band You know that whatever does all the covers and it reminds me I actually had a conversation with a friend who was telling me about that Torah actually has that concept of supporting your neighbor in business like that's a part of Jewish culture and the idea which is really cool the idea is that
00:43:55
Speaker
not just that you're supporting your local business, but you're supposed to buy from your local business, even if some big box store comes in and offers a better deal, you're still supposed to support your neighbor.
Cultural Disconnects and Art Appreciation
00:44:09
Speaker
And the idea is that not only are you supporting them and helping them to grow, and they would obviously be helping you to grow your business as well,
00:44:17
Speaker
But if somebody else is offering a better deal or a better quality product, you're then going to go back to your neighbor and be like, hey, this guy has a better product. You need to get better. I'm going to purchase from you or I'm going to have you play at my wedding, but you better be darn good.
00:44:35
Speaker
So this idea of really being invested in local artists to not only help them support themselves, but also to be accountability and advocating for the importance of what they do. I think that's really beautiful. I do too. And it reminds me of that quote, Love thy neighbor. Somebody really famous said that, right? Yeah, I've heard that before.
00:44:58
Speaker
Yeah, I loved that conversation. Something, you know, as I'm behind the boards, you know, doing my thing, producing this podcast, it's, you know, there are things that are said where it kind of takes me away from that for a second. And one of the main things was recapping what y'all said about the disconnect of where we are at as a society and our culture of that we want art, we need art.
00:45:28
Speaker
but we don't wanna pay for it and we want it super fast. And you asked that really great question of, I wonder what the disconnect is. And to me, just answering what I think my disconnect is, is because everything comes so fast for me, because I'm able in an instant to make a song with AI right now, that I am able to do things so fast and I don't wanna wait for it, but I know,
00:45:56
Speaker
I know deep down that it takes time to create these things. But I also know that as a consumer and being on the opposite side of the stage or in the gallery or at the movies or listening to my favorite podcast, which is this one. Of course. Is that that disconnect is because our society is like that.
00:46:24
Speaker
So how do we change? For me, it's stop and breathe for a second and realize what you are participating in. It's this idea of like, shut your phones off.
00:46:39
Speaker
shut your brain off, maybe shut your brain off, I don't know. So again, I could listen to you guys talk for hours and hours, but maybe our listeners couldn't, so.
Teaser for Next Episode and Closing
00:46:55
Speaker
Good, well, this is a great conversation and we're gonna continue this in our next episode of the Wise Hearted Ones, where we explore how aesthetics shape you with Dr. Elisa Edwards.
00:47:08
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think part of understanding what it means theologically to be committed to creativity, I think goes back to this idea of knowing that we have to have a vision.
00:47:25
Speaker
Be sure to join us on this journey as we continue to discover the original Call of the Artist and reconsider your creative gifting in light of the wise-hearted ones. Thanks for listening to Be Make Do, a Soul Makers podcast with your host, Lisa Smith. This episode was produced by me, Dan ABH. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Soul Makers podcast.
00:47:50
Speaker
Want to join the movement? Sign up for our newsletter at SoulMakers.org. All links and resources for this episode can be found in our show notes.