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Escaping The Vocation Traps with Steve Brock
301 Plays21 days ago
Episode Summary:
"You don’t have to monetize every gift. Creativity is something you steward, not something you have to prove.” -Steve Brock
In this special episode, host Lisa Smith talks with Steve Brock, the author of "Brand Something Beautiful: A Branding Workbook for Artists, Writers, and Other Creatives." Together, they discuss the intersection of faith and artistry, exploring what it really means to create as an act of grace. They also dive into the challenges of calling, the process of getting unstuck, and how to build a brand authentically.
This Episode's Resources:
- Download your FREE Vocation Trap Tracker: www.soulmakers.org/bemakedo
- Discover Your Artist Archetype → Take the Free Quiz at soulmakers.org
- Download the Full Artist Archetypes Guide for deeper insight: www.soulmakers.org/bemakedo
- Steve Brock's brand new book, Brand Something Beautiful
- Steve Brock's website: https://www.exploreyourworlds.com/
Connect & Share:
- Connect with Steve Brock:
stevebrock.substack.com
www.instagram.com/StephenWBrock
www.facebook.com/MeaningfulTrav
www.pinterest.com/ExploreYourWorlds - Subscribe to Be. Make. Do. for more in the Vocation Traps series
- Share this episode with a friend or creative you know
- Join the conversation on socials using #VocationTrapsPodcast
- Join our brand new Instagram Broadcast Channel!
Up Next: Join us as we discuss setbacks and mistakes of the vocation traps.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Vocation Trap Tracker and 'Be Make Do' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I want to let you know about a brand new vocation trap tracker tool that we created just for you so you can follow along with us this season as we explore these vocation traps.
00:00:12
Speaker
You'll be able to assess for yourself if any of these traps are ones that you get stuck in. Plus, we created a workbook with lots of great questions and thoughts for reflection and some exercises to help you bust through those traps and find freedom.
00:00:27
Speaker
You can download the free tracker on our website at soulmakers.org slash be make do or find the link in our show notes.
00:00:48
Speaker
Hello, welcome to Be Make Do, a Soulmakers podcast, where we explore what it takes to live out your call in the arts with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom.
00:00:59
Speaker
I'm your host, Lisa Smith, here with my producer, Dan ABH. Hello, everyone. And we are here to encourage you to become who you were created to be, make what you were created to make, and do what you were created to do.
00:01:14
Speaker
This season on the podcast, we've been exploring the vocation traps, sneaky mindset detours that can derail you from your sense of purpose.
Understanding Vocation Traps and Creative Blocks
00:01:23
Speaker
and Each of the traps, the security trap, the happiness trap, the hero trap, and the chosen trap, get you distracted and fixated on unhelpful questions that lead to block, panic, rash decisions, and worst of all, we stop creating.
00:01:41
Speaker
We don't want that. And that's not what God has for you. So go back and listen to our previous episodes if you want to understand the traps a little better. And be sure to download our free trap tracker on our website, soulmakers.org.
00:01:58
Speaker
It's a great little workbook that helps you i identify where you may be getting stuck. with exercises to help you break out of that trap and
Guest Introduction: Steve Brock and His Book
00:02:07
Speaker
move forward. So today's episode of the Be Make Do podcast, we're going to chat with an expert in all of this.
00:02:15
Speaker
Steve Brock is a writer, photographer, travel aficionado, and a marketing and branding genius. Steve and I were introduced to each other about a year ago through a friend, and he's quickly become one of my favorite people. He's so generous with his time and experience, and he's so encouraging and wise.
00:02:36
Speaker
If you're creative and you're not familiar with Steve Brock, you need to be. He is for sure soul maker. His latest book is called Brand Something Beautiful, a branding workbook for artists, writers, and other creatives. It was just released in October, and it's the resource I've been waiting for because so many of us are like, I hate marketing. I don't want to be on social media selling myself.
00:03:01
Speaker
This is a different kind of book because it's for It's for creatives. It's a how-to branding guide for creatives as opposed to like a personal influencer brand or a product organizational brand.
00:03:15
Speaker
So definitely check it out. We have links in the show notes as well as links to his other books like How to Make Something Beautiful, The Creative Wild Guide to the Paradoxes of Creativity.
00:03:26
Speaker
I know we'll have some great conversation with Steve about getting unstuck and focusing in the right direction as creatives. Let's get started.
Steve Brock's Journey in Branding and Creativity
00:03:44
Speaker
Well, hi, Steve. Thanks so much for coming and talking with us today. i really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you. Yeah, I have so much. I've really enjoyed um reading through your book, The Creative Wild.
00:03:57
Speaker
And I think you have such a unique and interesting perspective because you come from this branding, marketing background, but you're also a photographer.
00:04:08
Speaker
So you're you're seeing in two completely different arenas and two different ways of thinking, but then you're also a writer and a creative in general. So you kind of have this like full circle, i don't know, ah way of kind of seeing and getting at things. And I feel that that's a big part of of what I read in your book. there's so It's so well-rounded and so many ah facets of creativity. So I really enjoyed reading your book and I'm really grateful for the opportunity to talk with you. So thanks for being here.
00:04:40
Speaker
no thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so, okay. So can you just, let's just start off by you telling us a little bit about you and about the Creative Wild and your your background and experience and what led you to write the
Exploring Creativity Through Travel and Spirituality
00:04:52
Speaker
book?
00:04:52
Speaker
um background is professionally, right? It's one of the things that I think we'll probably talk about is just vocation, avocation, what you do for earning money, what you do for passion what do you believe God's called you to do, all of that, right? It's like fog in a blender.
00:05:11
Speaker
um And so i I've been doing the branding and kind of marketing side for about the last 20 plus, years actually.
00:05:22
Speaker
um on the agency side. So I work with, on the corporate side, ah Fortune 500 corporations, mostly in the area of corporate social responsibility, um but also on branding.
00:05:35
Speaker
And then with non-profits, predominantly Christian non-profits, um again, everything from smaller ones, but usually a lot of the larger ones in the country in branding,
00:05:46
Speaker
innovation, ah some digital marketing, all that type of a thing. So that's been very rewarding because the work, you know, it helps. it's ah It's nice to have a job where you're not just selling a product, but you're actually helping change lives and through the ministry side of it.
00:06:03
Speaker
But um so where the creativity, where the book came from, the first book that I had was called ah Hidden Travel. And it came out in 2021, so four years ago And it was more about, it took 12 years to write because it was originally written for a Christian.
00:06:21
Speaker
was almost like a theology of travel until I started like doing what the marketer in me does, which is you know test marketing and finding out that most Christians don't care about a theology of travel, right? Because it's about thinking more deeply about how you get...
00:06:36
Speaker
the most meaningful ah experience from any type of trip, not just a missions trip or a pilgrimage, but even a vacation. How can that be ah godly, ah wondrous, sacred type of experience?
00:06:48
Speaker
And then I realized that actually ah non-Christians really were more interested in the concepts there. So it became a book for a more of a
Creating as an Act of Grace and Spiritual Exploration
00:06:57
Speaker
secular audience. And you know I know you, Lisa, we've I've heard even of our discussions, it's like, and I'm not really even comfortable with those divides, but you almost have to use it as just general terms there for that.
00:07:09
Speaker
So then this became, so the Creative Wild is actually almost a part two from hidden travel in the sense that one of the key themes in hidden travel was how do you use a trip not just as a means not as an ending of itself like this great wonderful vacation but how do i use it to really explore my own in this case creative interest so like my wife is a knitter and she has friends that do trips around the world where they go to different places and they find yarn shops and they they meet with other local knitters and that type of thing i know of gardeners that do that i know of a lot of people that that use travel
00:07:47
Speaker
as the means to the end of their creative interest. And so, The Creative Wild became this book that was this extension of what's that intersection between travel and creativity, even if it's for people who don't really travel, but how can you take the principles of travel, like the idea of adventurousness, and apply that to the creative process a little bit more?
00:08:07
Speaker
So that's where it ended up. And then for this one, it became more of a focus on a Christian audience simply because there's some areas that were just not possible to talk about without mentioning Jesus, right? And talking about just the idea of grace, because one of the key themes in there is this, you know, theme of creating as an act of grace. And so it it required me to go into more specific language around that.
00:08:30
Speaker
Wow. Such a great metaphor because obviously, you know, you think about life and we're constantly thinking about trying to get somewhere and then that path and the the the journey itself, you know, that kind of stuff.
00:08:43
Speaker
And I know for me, when I was little, we we actually traveled quite a bit because of what my dad did for a living. And I know how much that shaped and informed the way I see and do everything. you know As I grew up realizing just those experiences, even you know at seven being able to guide my parents through the airport because it's like, oh, stop, you know I can show you it's this way or how to navigate these things to actually being in in other countries.
00:09:13
Speaker
it Yeah, it tests different parts parts of yourself. Absolutely. Well, I think, you as you know from that, that um I think was Catherine Hamm, who's the former travel editor for the l LA Times. and She told me something once I thought was really fascinating. She said, well, travel is is creative because creativity is fundamentally problem solving.
00:09:34
Speaker
And it's true. right nice And as a traveler, you're constantly what you were doing, you know, in the airport there as a kid, you were problem solving. And that's just one of those areas where we tend to not think of creativity in those general terms like that. We limit it to, okay, if it's not like in the arts, it's not creative or or that type of thing.
00:09:54
Speaker
That's not true at all, right? Creativity, it's part of who we are. And that's, it invades, actually, if we let it every part of our life. Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:06
Speaker
Well, I also appreciate you talking about it taking 12 years to write the book because I've been working on this i've been working on this book for for soulmakers for um at least that long. It just seems like it it takes...
00:10:20
Speaker
But ah sort some of it is, is that testing out information, you know, to see does this really connect and is it really true? But also the same kind of dichotomy that you're talking about between the um between audiences and and how to talk to what people actually need or what they feel they need versus what I want to say, what I feel they need.
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah. that's the That is, honestly, I think for most creatives, that's the problem is that we tend to see in a lot of cases, actually, it can both ways. We can either see a deeper need that people don't have, right? And they have an expressed felt need that doesn't go deep enough.
00:11:03
Speaker
Or we go the opposite and we focus on... bright shiny object that actually is too superficial, right, for what people need.
00:11:13
Speaker
And it's ah alignment of those two without being driven by the audience, right? Yeah. But at the same time, being sensitive to the audience and what those needs are. it's ah it's a tricky It's a tricky combination, but, you know, kudos to you for not force-fitting it one way or the other, right? Letting it kind of saturate and just kind of letting God guide it over time, right?
00:11:36
Speaker
It's a gift, right? You lift it up and you say, okay, what am I going to do with this, God? And you'll know the right time on that. Yeah. Well, that that leads straight into your book.
00:11:47
Speaker
And I do love it. And it was it was it was like, oh my gosh, there's so so much of what you've written is so near and dear to my heart and parallels some of the things that that we talk about, but also from a completely different you know perspective or a different way. And for me, that is just affirming. It's affirming of what God is doing in the world, what God is doing in artists and I um i know you know you kind of have part one, part two, part three in the book.
00:12:18
Speaker
And we talk a lot. i mean, this is the title of the podcast is Be, Make, Do. you know That calling is in these three sections of becoming who you are created to be and then honing and developing and understanding what you were created to make And then going out and doing what you're created to do, which can be multiple different things at different points in life and you know this all these different kinds of things.
00:12:43
Speaker
And you kind of get into that first part of the book, those spiritual foundations, is what spiritual foundations for creating adventurously. Just as we were talking about having the discernment or the willingness to wait on God or to kind of navigate that conversation between what I feel called to versus what what might you know what the audience or the market might want or all of those things.
00:13:06
Speaker
I think as a Christian, that becomes one of the main challenges, I think, for how do I show up in my work in this way whether it's in a church or it's in the marketplace, they're different challenges but come from a similar angst, I guess.
Spiritual Foundations in Creative Work
00:13:24
Speaker
right And so this this having those spiritual foundations becomes essential to be able to navigate that because it's not just a matter of like,
00:13:34
Speaker
you know, do I tell people I'm a Christian or not? Do I write? You know, it's much, much deeper than that to be able to speak about or to engage that part of you and see how that shows up in different ways. So talk about some of those spiritual foundations and what what you think is kind of essential.
00:13:53
Speaker
Well, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about how that that insecurity, that fear, that angst, I mean, it doesn't go away completely for any of us that are creative because that's just, anytime you're venturing into the unknown, right, there's going to be some sort of concern.
00:14:09
Speaker
Let's put it that way. Yeah. But I think about how, you know, the first John passage of the perfect love cast out fear, I feel like it's been not weaponized, but it's been sloganized.
00:14:20
Speaker
to a point where we kind of lose track of this idea that what does that really mean? And I think part of it is one of the principles in the book is this idea we mentioned earlier about creating as an act of grace.
00:14:31
Speaker
Well, if you substitute grace for God's love there, you start to realize this. Okay, if I fully grace, deep down right here, and not just here, God's love, then it neutralizes so much of the anxiety and fear. And I think the other thing is, under the guise of like success in the world today, we have bought way into that narrative.
00:14:56
Speaker
I have friends in like the Christian writing group here where I live in the Seattle area, who basically their whole goal is just to get published because that is some way of validating them.
00:15:07
Speaker
right But the reality is like that never works. Because as soon as you get one book published, you don't exactly feel like, oh, wow, I'm um successful. Then it's like the next and the next and next. So it's ah it's a never ending, right? You can't win that game.
00:15:22
Speaker
So to me, the idea of creating is active grace says you receive the ability to do that as a gift from God. And you see it as a gift, not something that you do, but something that you steward. And you steward it well by then ah producing the work and sticking to it.
00:15:37
Speaker
And then you treat it as a gift that you give to others. okay Even if you're selling it, it is still that mindset of as a gift that I can use to bless others. It changes the power dynamic that you have with ah with your audiences because no longer is it like, oh, am might is the is the work good enough?
00:15:54
Speaker
Am I good enough? All those different concerns that we have, it becomes like, doesn't matter because I'm giving it to you. And the problem with it is back to that point we talked about or mentioned earlier of vocation, avocation is this.
00:16:07
Speaker
We have been fed a message that says you have to monetize everything. And if you're not monetizing it, you're not successful. And I just do not accept that. And I think that gets us into all sorts of problems because as soon as you go down that track, then everything is about like how many of this thing can I sell, right? Or how much can I sell it for?
00:16:27
Speaker
As opposed to how do I use this, the process part, to draw me closer to God, to bless others, all this type of stuff. So quite frankly, I've had people tell me like on the creative wild that it's like, well, it brought me to tears because the there's a part in there in that first part you mentioned that says my own journey of realizing that A, um I always thought that creativity had to be for a specific purpose. And that if that purpose didn't include people, it was a complete waste of time. In fact, almost sinful.
00:16:59
Speaker
And I've since come to realize is, number one, is that there are purposes that we simply don't know about that God uses things for. And that from the people standpoint is same thing is like like your book you're working on.
00:17:11
Speaker
okay Nothing is wasted in God's economy. So if you never, ever published that book, it has changed who you are, Lisa.
Evaluating Creative Work Beyond Monetary Value
00:17:19
Speaker
It has affected everything that you're doing so far. And we tend to kind of just say, oh, yeah, yeah, right.
00:17:26
Speaker
And ignore that part is instead of saying, okay, no, that's the real reason we're doing this type of a thing. Yeah. I mean, that's an amazing, such an important message for people to hear. I talk to so many people who do get caught up in that, you know, I have a studio full of paintings that I can't get shown at X, Y, or place anymore.
00:17:48
Speaker
And it is tempting, I think, or or distracting. It's easy to get distracted from really enjoying art, the art making process, but also sharing it.
00:17:59
Speaker
And i keep wondering if what I mean, while technology opens up all kinds of avenues, it also places a lot of limitations and difficulties into industries, obviously.
00:18:12
Speaker
And I keep wondering, like is there going to be a day where you just start hearing about these like gatherings in the woods where you know people just sort of get together on the weekends and bring their guitars and you know read story you know do storytelling out loud? Just kind of this like return to old village life but to just enjoy and share locally what we have. like Wouldn't that be an interesting...
00:18:40
Speaker
I think it's happening, honestly. i mean, if you look at, um even go back to the like 2012, I think when, you know, kind of the idea of like the the the revenge of analog and um some of these concepts. And I think it's just becoming more and more where people are hungering for There's a line, actually, my wife, I mentioned she knits, but she also works in a knitting store.
00:19:02
Speaker
And i love her line. She said, people come in there that, again, I'm in the Seattle area, lot of high tech stuff. And people will come in and just say, I want to use my hands because I'm using, yeah, I'm moving my mouse or my keyboard, but that's about it.
00:19:18
Speaker
And she her line is something like, it's amazing how much using your hands feeds your soul. right And I think there's something about that tactical nature, the relational aspect that comes from not being, you know connecting simply through a device, all those different things. We all fill feel it, right? We know it.
00:19:38
Speaker
We sense it. I think it's just a matter of having the, quite honestly, the courage to act on that. and to seek out that community yeah and to value it um just for its own sake.
00:19:51
Speaker
Because I think we can all do it. And and unfortunately, i in a world of deconstructing the church, i feel like there's radical need to say is like, no, I can see all the problems. I mean, I work with Christian nonprofits and churches.
00:20:05
Speaker
I see the inside skeletons in the closet, all of that, okay? I see the worst of the body of Christ. And yet it is still to me, God's plan A for this world, right?
00:20:17
Speaker
And so I'm not going to give up on that because you have like, who is it? Alain de Paton. He's a writer. One of my favorite books is The Art of Travel. if He's written a ton of stuff, but he comes from an atheist perspective.
00:20:31
Speaker
And he says, why can't we atheists find community in the same way that Christians have church. We need a church for atheists because everything we do, we just cannot achieve that same level of community. So when church is working well, people from the outside see that and they go, it like, yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
And I think that hunger for community around creativity is this the same hunger that we have in the church. It's just we don't see the expressions of it being done as well as we would like. And therefore, we kind of say, oh, I'll go over here. I'll go over there. But I think there's a way back. And I think as creatives, we should be, you know, offering the new vision for that.
00:21:10
Speaker
So because aren't you? OK, so on that, wasn't your architect the creative visionary? Isn't that what? Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's you, right? And it's people like you that that to me are the hope for offering a new way of looking at this and saying like, okay, how do we use creativity towards really in some ways restoring the social fabric that we are losing in society? Yeah.
00:21:34
Speaker
Well, that that is a huge piece of why we're doing the podcast and why we're trying to create resources for artists to help them see themselves in a role of leadership, not leadership the way that it typically looks like or the way we typically think about it and the kind of power structure, but thought leaders, imagination leaders, the you know the the ability to evoke a possibility or lots of possibilities ah for what can be.
00:22:02
Speaker
And i I have so many conversations with artists, you know, there's about how do I connect or work within the church structure? And I have a lot of conversations with pastors and church leaders who are like, how how do I work with artists? Because they want the creativity. Right.
00:22:18
Speaker
But it's, yeah I don't think that in a lot of senses, it's it's obviously threatening because it, you know, institutional change is not, ah you know, can be good and cannot be good. But ah the point is, i i really do feel like artists are being called to step forward as leaders to show how, how can we do this in a way that, that really is life-giving for
Artists as Church Leaders and Visionaries
00:22:40
Speaker
everybody. And I don't think that's um been the focus. Let's put it that way anyway, for a long time.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I agree. And I mean, it's easy to blame the church for that. But I think we have ourselves to blame in a little bit. And this is what I've seen, particularly since the book has come out and talking to people.
00:22:57
Speaker
On the one hand, I see it with people who don't think of themselves as creative. And I have to like, you know, talking through it. Now I almost i have this like five minute challenge. Give me five minutes of your time and I can basically can not necessarily convince you, but I can demonstrate why you are creative.
00:23:11
Speaker
But I think the other side is for those who are creative, who have fallen into equal but different types of siloed stereotypical thinking that says, if I can't do my painting the way I want to do it here at church, and if they don't value that, then forget them, right? It's like, you're a creative person.
00:23:31
Speaker
Okay, you're not just a painter, right? You're not just a writer. You're not just this, right? You are a creative person. How about thinking about ways that you could use your creative abilities in new ways for the church, okay? but Even at our own church, ah we tried to start an artists and creatives group there. And yeah, the response was, okay, um since you guys are artists, that means you are, yeah, since you're creatives, you must be artists. And if you're artists, that means you must be painters.
00:23:58
Speaker
Therefore, can you help paint the children's wing? ah Right, right. And it's like, no, it goes way beyond that. But we didn't offer a compelling enough vision for what that other was. And that was our fault.
00:24:11
Speaker
That wasn't the church's fault. They're not equipped to think that way. So we need to kind of lead the way in that thinking as well. Yeah, I mean, it goes back to one of the very first things that you were talking about in the book and travel and problem solving.
00:24:24
Speaker
that That really is, when I talk to pastors, I i tell them, you know if you have find a creative in your congregation, take them out to lunch right and talk to them about the biggest problems that or in your in your congregation or what you are hoping to achieve in the next year.
00:24:42
Speaker
Like that is the best use of that time with that artist for your perspective because of the problem solving but piece of things. Well, and it's honestly, it's going to be, let's get really pragmatic.
00:24:54
Speaker
That gives you a structured topic to focus on as opposed to tell me about what it's like being an artist in which case you're going to go, shh, shh. Right.
00:25:05
Speaker
And you're never going to have a common ground. But but I love that because it gives them a focus. And I mean, know I'm a guy. Right. We like to solve problems. We don't listen well because right all that.
00:25:17
Speaker
But I think that applies to everyone that we all like to be able to contribute. And that's an opportunity in which we can do that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, so we're talking about one counterintuitive thing, and that is a segue for me into another counterintuitive thing in that part one, because this also lines up with what we're talking about right now with these, what we're calling vocation traps, but they're ways of thinking about calling that tend to get you stuck by placing you kind of in ah the mentality that you're, you know,
00:25:51
Speaker
pursuing something, but really maybe it's for other other means, you know different different ways of thinking. But the point is about like looking at the things that that keep us stuck. And you talk a lot about getting unstuck in the book.
00:26:04
Speaker
um And also that it's not necessarily a bad thing. So tell me tell me tell me more about that. So we've bought into the idea that, oh, gosh, I'm stuck because I've heard that from so many other people. Therefore, right, I've got to be that way myself. We just kind of.
00:26:21
Speaker
And ah there's a point in there that I didn't call it out, but there is a line that I was thinking about that C.S. Lewis says actually about ah Satan. He said, Satan's greatest...
00:26:32
Speaker
ah ability to thrive is because we either over-inflate his power or we underestimate it, right? And I think the same thing with stuckness. We either think, oh my gosh, I'm stuck here, when in reality you're not, okay? Or we don't realize how we're stuck when we really are, okay?
00:26:49
Speaker
So the main thing about it is the the good side is stuckness usually runs much deeper than we think. So for me, it got to the point of kind of almost like core beliefs that were unhelpful core beliefs or limiting core beliefs, limiting beliefs, I guess you could call them.
00:27:06
Speaker
yeah And a lot of us get stuck because we fall into those things. And so we think we're stuck because I can't get through this chapter of this novel I'm working on. But the reality is it's because I got some little record playing back there saying, it like you know what? you if this If you actually finish this chapter, you're going to have to finish the book. And if you finish the book, people might like it. And then what's that going to do to your life, right? And this fear of success. And Brene Brown, I think, calls it foreboding joy, where it's the sense of, right, that we don't want to commit to joy because of what that might mean.
00:27:38
Speaker
So we have all these weird, deeper level things that can get us stuck. But then, okay, the other flip side of it is, the good side is, we don't realize that, like in music, what makes music great as much as the notes are the rests that you have, the pauses.
00:27:58
Speaker
And sometimes what we think is being stuck is God's way of just saying, you need to pause here. You're going too fast, you're spinning on your own too quickly, and you need to slow down because I've got something even better for you.
00:28:10
Speaker
So a lot of those detours that we think are just like, oh, my gosh, my dream is crushed. It's like God saying, ah wrong dream, buddy. That's like I got something so much better over here. So that stuckness isn't stuckness.
00:28:22
Speaker
It's just like kind of God's way. I mean, it's the same issue as like unanswered prayer. and We all hate that. But the reality is how many times have you had a prayer that you didn't get answered in the way you wanted and it turns out God answers it in so, so much better.
00:28:40
Speaker
yeah It's the same thing with stuckness, right? So we need to to quit thinking of being stuck as a bad thing. And I think the main um aspect that ties that to to that to me is this idea of, there's a line in um Elizabeth Gilbert's book, Big Magic.
00:28:58
Speaker
Which gets a little woo-woo-ish out there. So I'm not sure i fully recommend the whole book, but I love this line, which is, i used to think that frustration was part of the process, you know, the creative process. And and I'm paraphrasing, but she says, now I realize that frustration is the process.
00:29:17
Speaker
Okay. And when I finally recognized and heard that from another person, just the freedom that comes with realizing is, okay, this hardness, this getting stuck, this this frustration, okay, that's the norm. And once you accept that, then it's like, like the line in book is we make creating harder when we think it should be easier.
00:29:38
Speaker
That's so good. and And you're right about the freedom of just accepting that, of accepting the frustration is is the process. Then it's not about escaping it. It's about going in. and it feels good.
00:29:53
Speaker
to It's almost like setting challenges that you're are like, okay, you know bring it on, as opposed to trying to avoid the challenge, avoid the pain. It makes me think about, I remember in acting school, and the idea that usually, i can't remember who said it, but when, or maybe I just experienced this, when I would come to a place in a script that was either like hard to memorize, for some reason I just could not get those lines in my head, or something in the play just wasn't working in a moment or an experience, and it just didn't feel good, it just didn't go right.
00:30:30
Speaker
I came to realize that it was always in those moments where something really interesting happened. Like the struggle to break that open and and get whatever it is that's blocking me from remembering it or from making it feel natural or right, that in there is a key, ah treasure that has to be unlocked And realizing that then makes those parts, they're not fun, but it makes it worthwhile. And then coming with a sense of expectation like, oh, okay, there's something here right if I'm willing to go into it, which does change the way you feel about hitting those blocks.
00:31:11
Speaker
Well, exactly. Not just that time, right? When you hit the next one, you can look and this is like, and okay, this isn't necessarily a block. Okay, where's where's the jewel, right? Yeah. Where is it that's buried here?
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah.
Spiritual Growth and Creative Struggles
00:31:23
Speaker
And that absolutely translates, I think, into the spiritual life, which you you were already talking about there too. And I feel like I'm learning that more and more, even just asking God to like, okay, show me the next thing.
00:31:37
Speaker
Like, what's the next truth? What's the next hard thing? And being willing to sit in it long enough. It's the same kind of thing of being willing to sit with something that's uncomfortable, that doesn't make sense or or doesn't even seem good and look with eyes to see what is it you're going to do here? Because I know you're going to do something. Right.
00:31:56
Speaker
And it could be a three or four, 10-year process. Right. No, but that sitting with it, it's funny because the follow-up book to The Creative Wild is called Make Something Beautiful and subtitle is The Paradoxes of Creativity and How to Make Them Work for You.
00:32:12
Speaker
So it's really more like a gift book for a ah secular audience. So I have something for both. Because ironically, maybe not ironically, that most of my artist friends, they, you know, that's kind of the divide you saw in the book is like, as a Christian, our Christian friends don't, they think we're kind of weird for our creativity. right Right. And our non-Christian friends think we're kind of weird because a we believe in this guy, Jesus. Right?
00:32:36
Speaker
So that was the impetus for that book, but this idea of the paradoxes. So that's exactly what you're really talking about is most of this, those of particularly have grown up like in an evangelical culture, have been kind of trained to, no it's an either or black and white. You got to move.
00:32:53
Speaker
The clarity shows up in the when you can see it in those clear terms. And I know the more I look at the gospel, particularly something like the Sermon the Mount, it's like, Oh, I do not see that black and white there. Grace grace is not black and white.
00:33:09
Speaker
I mean, the Pharisees, they're really good at black and white, but grace, not so much so. And so um kind of a life philosophy that has come out even of writing this has just been this both and type of equation that says,
00:33:25
Speaker
I have to live in the discomfort of not knowing in the middle of that paradox, because in that paradox is where God can most be found, not in the simple answers that I wanted to turn to. want to be simple. I want the black and white, but but I don't see God showing up there. Because the minute you take that out of it is you've removed the mystery.
00:33:48
Speaker
And how big is mystery, right, to our faith? Yeah. I'm just thinking that may be the crux of the challenge between or for an artist of faith or an artist working within the church or an artist trying to, as a Christian, create because it is that paradox thing. It is being comfortable with the paradox. And and that's what art does, right, is explore the the paradox However, if you've grown up or been kind of steeped in a Christian culture, which doesn't make room for that, that's where it's like, okay, my artist brain is over here, my Christian brain is over here, and they they don't fit together, when in reality, they fit perfectly together. They're exactly what's needed.
00:34:34
Speaker
But i think I don't think that's obvious to a lot of people. Well, it's because of this. You say our Christian brain and our artistic brain, what you're really saying is our – Westernized American right cultural Christian brain and our Westernized cultural artistic brain.
00:34:51
Speaker
Exactly. Those two don't fit together, but deeper down, right? Everything from, mean, just look at the off quoted idea of Bezalow and Exodus 31 being like the first person, right?
00:35:04
Speaker
given, granted, um filled with the Holy Spirit for a purpose in the Bible was for a creative artistic act. Okay. yeah That's not there by accident.
00:35:15
Speaker
Right. So there's reasons for it. God is a creator, a creative being, all these different things that we always box him up, right? We always fit them into these little categories and doesn't work too well.
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so much there. And and i I really appreciate you pointing out too that like Western modern mindset of both Christianity and art making because that names it. It's like, yes, they do. Because I do have this conversation with other people who are in a similar place to me helping artists try to integrate their art and faith. And it feels like, well, it's not that hard to integrate. It shouldn't be hard to integrate. And yet it is.
00:35:56
Speaker
And the way that you're saying it makes it really clear. Yes, it is the way you're thinking about it. Exactly. Then is a key to go, oh, if I think about it differently, there's a new, there's a different way. Right.
00:36:09
Speaker
and And then and there's like a crazy freedom and a crazy joy in just knowing that there is a different
Embracing Uncertainty and Celebrating Achievements
00:36:16
Speaker
way. Yeah. yeah And I mean, honestly, too often, i kind of roll my eyes because like in innovation work, a lot of times you'll hear people say is, ah well, if you can't get to the ah right answer, you're just asking the wrong question, which is true.
00:36:33
Speaker
Sometimes, but sometimes it's like you're asking the right question, but you're not living in the discomfort of not knowing long enough. So right, same type of thing. We can't even use this as a model to say is like, oh, well, we just have to rethink it all completely because well, not always. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. So all of it, and it can feel very um disorienting disorienting ah to a lot of people, I think, to to say, is like well, there's nothing you can stand on.
00:37:02
Speaker
It's like, yeah, you can. There's this guy called Jesus, right? We can rest completely on that in what the Holy Spirit gives us to understand and things like that without having to always have this expert, you know, one solution to everything. Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:20
Speaker
and There's so many things I want to talk to you about. Yeah, I was thinking before we were talking, I was i was thinking about ah an email that you sent me. we were talking about your completing this book and then immediately feeling like, okay, what's next?
00:37:36
Speaker
Or like that's that's the typical feeling. And I so relate to this, the need to be able to slow down and celebrate and rest and and actually just get to appreciate the fruits of your labor.
00:37:50
Speaker
in a way. right um Which again, just like everything we've been talking about is counter cultural or counter intuitive in our culture. and i I feel like it can be really surprising.
00:38:02
Speaker
Like I can be in a place where i feel really connected with God and I feel really creatively fulfilled. And yet something like that will still, it's still like, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing?
00:38:14
Speaker
So it's almost like a little insidious thing that, that pops up. Yep. It can be either. It's funny because I just had this conversation um two nights ago with a group of Christian creatives about this what's next type of thing. And that was one of points is like, well, where does rest fit in with all this? Yeah.
00:38:33
Speaker
And absolutely. I mean, so real quickly, it's funny because I have the books here. So... Those of you who are just listening this, you will not appreciate it. And I'm holding up a copy of Hidden Travel, okay which is my first book.
00:38:46
Speaker
And when this came, my reaction was, okay, that's great. Now, where are there any typos? How did the publisher handle this? Things like that. And then, Oya goes. When now I'm holding up the creative wild. And when this came, I actually had my wife and friends just said, stop, celebrate that, you know, hold it. And just say like, Hey, I did this right. Thank you, God. Thank you for this. Right.
00:39:07
Speaker
So take time to celebrate. But then there is that point of the next thing. And so, What I shared the other night I think is true, but it's again, it's not the only answer because I think a big part of that is the rest. But I don't think we celebrate well in general.
00:39:23
Speaker
okay We may party, but we don't truly celebrate. okay So one of the things is celebrate those small wins and the big wins. and then rest and see. But I think the other thing is this issue of momentum and we're back to getting stuck.
00:39:37
Speaker
So there is an element of having that next thing in the back of your mind as long as it not driving you to a point of like almost desperation. right So what I shared with the group was this in the marketing world and advertising, a lot of people think that when's the best time in kind of the product life cycle that you want to invest in advertising. Some people think it's at the launch,
00:39:57
Speaker
Then it's at the point of growth. Then it's at the point of stagnation. Then it's the point of decline. And most people think, well, it's at stagnation because then you want to like boost it up and get that, you know, going up in the right direction again.
00:40:09
Speaker
The reality is no, the best time to invest in advertising is when your product is taking off. And it seems counterintuitive. It's like, well, why if it's already doing well, because what you're going to do is build on that momentum. Hmm. And so I think like the best time to start your second book is when the first book book is like three quarters of the way through.
00:40:29
Speaker
And you don't want it for distraction and you don't want to do it to just kind of divert yourself because we're all good at like, you know, procrastination, et cetera. But I think it is there to have that so that you don't have that fall off.
00:40:41
Speaker
It's the same thing back to travel. It's the, what's it, some people call it the post-trip blues. Yeah. the poem Right. And it's like this disappointment. But the thing to me that's gotten me over it is on that plane ride home, I'm literally writing in my journal,
00:40:56
Speaker
What are the articles? What are the blog posts? What are the the images that I can take from this trip so that when I get home, I don't feel that kind of loss.
00:41:07
Speaker
Right. Instead, I'm like excited about what I can do with what I've gained on the trip. Yeah. And it's the same type of thing. So it's keeping the momentum going rather than going to a complete stop and then just having to build that up. But again, some people need that complete stop and that complete break to rest.
00:41:25
Speaker
No one right answer. that the The key thing in the book, the key theme or one of them is find what works for you. Right. Right. Because it's going to be different for each of us.
00:41:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You really got me thinking about what what will work for me. Because i i do tend to, if I have a day that's just filled with really great conversations and insights, and i or I read a book or experience something or i write something and I'm really kind of almost high on it, it just feels i get that ah kind of drinking from a fire hose kind of feeling.
00:42:01
Speaker
And and i can the next day, i can almost feel... depressed almost. And it's not necessarily like, it may be that I still want the stimulation, but it's more, I don't know what to do with all all of that stimulation.
00:42:15
Speaker
yeah So finding a way, thinking about it in terms of momentum like and rest, like how do you kind of almost like have momentum that rests on a bed of air, you know, a planned plan space. I don't know. I have to think about that.
00:42:31
Speaker
Let me give you a very practical tool um that relates to this, which is we all have those conversations and those high moments and stuff like that. But what do you do with what you've learned from that? Yeah. What I have discovered is it's in David Allen's book.
00:42:46
Speaker
ah we it It's about productivity. Okay. Can't even remember the title. But anyway, famous book. And he talks about um this idea of parking your ideas.
00:42:57
Speaker
And that means and when you have an idea, if you write it down, then you don't have to use mental energy for it. So let's let's expand upon that. The way we work. Is that?
00:43:08
Speaker
Anyway, doesn't work. No. Same thing here is if you have a good storage place and system and a good retrieval system, you can ah basically undermine that that almost like slight depression feeling that you're going have because it's like, ah i did a workshop with Dallas Willard years ago at one of Renovare conferences and he it was on how to live one day with Jesus.
00:43:32
Speaker
And my favorite part of it was his thing on um this question is, do you treat your work as an act of faith. And what he meant by that is, do you trust God enough to complete what needs to be done, or do you feel it's all on you?
00:43:47
Speaker
and Great question, right? But when you start doing this, and when you have ability to just write down those thoughts, yeah and you have a place where they can go, and then you have a place where you can come back to them later on, then it it adds to that ability to trust that God will bring those things to you when you need them.
00:44:04
Speaker
But if you rely on your memory, like one of the lines in, I think it was actually in Hidden Travel, was the quote the Confucius quote, which is, um the weakest ink is stronger than the best memory.
00:44:16
Speaker
right Write it down. Write it down. Yeah, I love that. And then being able to just rest in the trust, trusting those notes are there and then trusting, being able to give it time. Because I think that part of that, like drinking from the fire hose thing is that the desire, the need to process it all.
00:44:32
Speaker
and And it takes time. It takes time to live in that. So yeah, being able to kind of yeah have that repository of of information that you can trust and then trust that God is just sort of working it through right in time.
Values-Based Creative Branding
00:44:45
Speaker
i love that. Well, before I let you go, I really, I'm very, very, very interested in the book that you're working on is in in process um about branding for artists.
00:45:02
Speaker
um This is something that I've actually been kind of, it's it's it's like a, it's just a word creating a value or a sentence, creating a values-based brand. That's something that I just like have on a piece of paper that is something I think about, but I'm like, huh,
00:45:17
Speaker
I wonder how you do that. wonder what that looks like. it's It's funny because we have, so working with corporations, a lot of times, because I say probably 70 plus percent of my work in branding has been with Christian ah nonprofits, right?
00:45:32
Speaker
So sometimes when you go to, in this case, like ah a Walmart or a Prudential or a Microsoft, some of our corporate clients, the first question is like, well, you know, in their corporate social responsibility, it's easier.
00:45:44
Speaker
But if it's simply like with a smaller corporation, they're going like, well, what do you know about product sales and things like that? You've been working over here. So two answers I give them. Number one is that, look, If we can sell the intangible over here and in this space of nonprofits, selling a physical good piece of cake.
00:46:03
Speaker
Okay. Number two is this. General theory is that nonprofits are really good at demonstrating their values, but they're really terrible about um demonstrating the value they provide. Corporations, on the other hand, are great at demonstrating their value the value they provide.
00:46:22
Speaker
right yeah but terrible about communicating their values. So it's not just for us as creatives around our, or even as Christians, our Christian values. It goes pretty wide. yeah So this idea of the book is really for artists and creatives specifically on how do you live within that, understand and appreciate and build upon those values because those values, interestingly enough, in today's world, those are what are going to distinguish you.
00:46:48
Speaker
And the the heart of a brand is this idea of distinction, right? We say a good brand has to be four things. It has to be relevant. It has to be distinctive. It has to be um true, right? And then it has to be lead to action.
00:47:03
Speaker
Because if it doesn't, it's not useful to you. So the book is really about how to take these general branding um principles and apply them towards creating the the what I call the creative brand.
00:47:13
Speaker
And the creative brand is a little bit different. It's something that I haven't really heard anyone else talk about. But to me, it's this. You hear a lot of people talk. They won't use these terms, but they talk about an organizational brand.
00:47:25
Speaker
Nike, Apple, right? Starbucks. Those are all organizations. Then they have products. So like, for example, Apple is going to have a MacBook Pro and it's going to have an iPad and all those.
00:47:36
Speaker
Those are product brands. And then you have over here on the other side, you have the personal brands. Right? So yeah like a Kim Kardashian is great example of someone who's known just predominantly for her as personal. And you see most of the influencers out there today trying to build these personal brands.
00:47:52
Speaker
Well, I think there's an area in between the product brand and the ah personal brand. And that's what I call the creative brand, where it's like, you are still known for you as a person.
00:48:04
Speaker
So Lisa, you have your own brand, but if it's all about you alone, that's just so much pressure. And as Christians, we tend to want to be like, eh, I don't feel comfortable about that. yeah But if you can see it as you as a person,
00:48:19
Speaker
who is stewarding this brand that looks and sounds just like you, but is actually kind of different, almost like a persona, and that that person also produces products.
00:48:31
Speaker
Okay, so now it's not just about you as a person, it's about you and the product. So good example to me of creative brands are people, well-known ones like, it's like a Steven Spielberg, right? You don't go looking on his, you know, Facebook page for what he had for breakfast or who he's hanging out with.
00:48:46
Speaker
You know him as a person that produces creative products. Okay, same thing with Malcolm Gladwell, all these different folks like that. There's so much freedom when we can do that because now it's not about us and the ego that comes with a personal brand.
00:48:59
Speaker
but it allows you to embrace those values that make you you, but also share that with the product side of it. Yeah. And I think i think this is ah an important conversation too for Christians in the arts. and I don't know if it's the same now, but I think it is.
00:49:15
Speaker
um and know like speaking with a photographer friend of mine and you know being an actor or any number of situations where you ah you are always working or most of the time you're working with a client or you're working with somebody else.
00:49:29
Speaker
And so there comes the the questions about what work you you want to choose to participate in when you may or may not be the one initiating the project. And that's part of where this sort of came from was like, okay, well, if you start from a perspective of um illustrating things,
00:49:48
Speaker
who you you know who you are, what kind of work that you do. Not necessarily that like, hey, I'm a Christian, I only wanna do x y and Z, or I don't believe in these things or those things. um But even more than that, like these are the kinds of stories I want to tell.
00:50:03
Speaker
This is the kind of view outlook I have on life. You know, it goes much deeper than just those surface, like I don't swear in my, you know, if it's not- Alcohol company or alcohol company. Yeah, exactly. Like we we talk about those things.
00:50:17
Speaker
But to to really go deeper to like, what are what are my real? And I think ah a lot people talk a lot more about values these days. But I do think that's a really important piece of how how we kind of show up with our artwork to be able to even think about that.
00:50:30
Speaker
What is it? what are What are we trying to say? What do we what do we have to offer? It's in some ways the scariest place for us because um that's where we're most vulnerable to other people. i mean i I won't say where it was, but there was a Christian university that I spoke at once and the anne met with the the marketing department, the heads of the marketing department.
00:50:53
Speaker
One the questions was they knew that I had worked with the corporate social responsibility area of Walmart. And they said, how can you possibly work with Walmart? They they exploit their employees. They do this, this.
00:51:04
Speaker
Most of their points actually were not even true. They were just rehashing these things they had heard without knowing it. but and their And their line was, and I said, well, but we're not working with them on selling products.
00:51:15
Speaker
And he said, well, yeah, that's like being a shoemaker for the Nazis. And it's like, with do you realize how, like, you know, just inflammatory that illustration is and just how far off that is? Because even if you're right, even if they were, you know, ah evil, evil company, just that mindset. So as creatives...
00:51:38
Speaker
Just whatever you do, there's going to be someone out there that's going to have a problem with it. Someone inside the church, someone outside the church. If you work with an organization that you think you're doing it for values, just if nothing else to be salt and light in this industry and to be present to these people.
00:51:57
Speaker
Someone from the ah inside the church looking at and says, ah yeah, you're working with these sinners, right? You're doing this. You're compromising your own values. So I think we have to it's hard, right? And this is where we need um like-minded and like-hearted and like-valued people in our tribe to support us.
00:52:15
Speaker
and to hold us accountable if we start to gravitate and compromise those values. in Because it's so easy to say, is like oh yeah, I'll work with this company. Yeah, I don't like what they represent, but it's a great, if I do this, then it'll get me to this, right?
00:52:30
Speaker
And then we're into the very scary, but very often practiced realm of ends justify the means, right? Yeah. But all of that, it's murky. Talk about like no black and white, but I think yeah it's the ones where it forces us to be on our knees, first of all.
00:52:47
Speaker
ah But it it does get back to the the community piece. We can't navigate that on our own. We just can't. you know Yeah, absolutely. That is so key and essential. And I like that you said, ah like valued.
00:53:01
Speaker
but Not like just like-minded, but like-minded and like-hearted and like-valued. That's really- I have a lot of friends at church that are like-minded. they're actually maybe like-valued, but we're not like-minded or not like-hearted and vice versa.
00:53:15
Speaker
And not a bad thing, but just be aware of that those are not the same things. Yeah, that's interesting. i have to think more about that. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's just that that the we don't all think alike. Just, again, as creatives, we're not going to have people that are like-minded. They're just simply are are like-hearted. They're just not going to get us. They're not going to think that way at all.
00:53:35
Speaker
But we could still find allies in terms of our values there with them, right? Right, right. And in the, like, quote, unquote, secular world, we're going to find people who are like-hearted and like-minded in artistic pursuits, but they're not like valued.
00:53:51
Speaker
And again, like, okay, great. So you work within that, but just you're just aware of it. I think this, to me, the secret of like life almost is ah awareness and intentionality.
00:54:03
Speaker
yeah Because if we're not constantly like, you know, discerning, spiritually discerning what the atmosphere, the situations we're in, then we are so easily led astray.
00:54:15
Speaker
and then if we're not then acting upon that with intentionality, and we just kind of go with the flow, we're so easily astray. led astray you know and it's hard but again that sounds like oh so hard so difficult it's like no we got again back to this guy and jesus kind of goes with us the idea about you know take my yoke upon you and and learn from me right we co-create we co-live we abide with jesus through all these things and
00:54:46
Speaker
Just in the doing of it, it just becomes over time. I wish I could say it was second nature. It still is an effort, right? It's so easy to forget. But when we do remember that, it just it does become so much easier.
00:54:59
Speaker
Yeah. And I feel like there's a key in and identifying why you might feel lonely in a certain circumstance to know, well, these people were like-minded and we have these things, you know, maybe we're even like-hearted, but we're not like-valued or any of those three things. And that if one of them is missing, know,
00:55:18
Speaker
to be able Because I think sometimes people are like, I don't know why I don't fit in. right i should fit in, but I don't fit in because of these things. And that's a good rubric to to to look. It's like, which piece of this is missing for me? That maybe maybe there's nothing wrong with being with these people. you know These are good people to be with, but I also need this other thing. That's what's missing.
00:55:39
Speaker
Well, and the other thing in those situations, and maybe it's just me, I don't think it's just me, but I'll own it, is this. I can often feel uncomfortable in those situations because of insecurity sure and and because I'm making comparisons and things like that.
00:55:56
Speaker
So it it can be very easy to misjudge. those characteristics if I'm, again, not abiding and trusting God in literally each moment when I'm feeling that loneliness to say is like, God, I got you. Right?
00:56:11
Speaker
Okay, we're hitting this together. And just that reminder is i don't go anywhere on my own. You know, I always have God in and with me and all that type of stuff. It makes it much easier.
00:56:24
Speaker
Thank you so much. Thanks for this conversation. And thank you for everything that you do and your willingness to share your wisdom and experience because it's it's really, really helpful. Honestly, i would say the exact same same thing back to you and just how just listening to the podcast. I mean, it's like now I'm at a point where it's like, okay, where's the next episode? Where's the next one? Oh, that's so good to hear. Yeah, no, I absolutely love it because you provide a perspective that is not out there that much.
00:56:53
Speaker
And just the people you talk to and how you as a host bring out these sides of people. And that this thinking has been just personally to me, you know, it's like, okay, i write wrote a book on creativity. Like I should know all this stuff is honestly, none of us ever know it. We're all still learning. And so I learned so much just from from listening to you in the podcast. So thank you for Oh, wow.
00:57:16
Speaker
Thank you, Steve. Thanks. Yeah.
00:57:27
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Be Make Do podcast. I love hearing from you about how these conversations are encouraging you and giving you freedom. It's so cool to get to share resources like Brand Something Beautiful and Steve Brock's books with you.
00:57:42
Speaker
If this podcast is up your alley, please go over to our website, soulmakers.org, and join our community by signing up for our emails and help us spread the word. Amplify the beacon and share with other creatives so we can all grow stronger together.
00:57:57
Speaker
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00:58:15
Speaker
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