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Artist Archetypes with Jakari Sherman
219 Plays1 month ago
"...If you have something that's a unique gift that you know God has given you, then you just specialize on that thing. You just really develop it. You just really spend your time on it, like you plunge your resources into that special that thing... to the point that you're the only one that does it, or you're the only one that does it the way that you do it, or to the level that you do it."
In this episode of the Be. Make. Do. podcast, Lisa talks with Jakari Sherman, Founder of Ordered Steps, a nonprofit devoted to stepping as youth outreach and community development. From 2007-2014 Jakari served as the Artistic Director of Step Afrika!, He continues to develop and direct works for the company, including Off-Broadway and national tours of Drumfolk and The Migration: Reflections on Jacob Lawrence, and remains a prolific choreographic mind for the company and beyond. His upcoming work is the premiere of a new multidisciplinary dance work, "Our Road Home" - June 2025; for the commemoration of 160 years since emancipation, and part of a year long collaboration with the Houston Freedmen's Town Conservancy.
Jakari emphasizes the importance of innovation, purpose, and community in his work and shares his motivations, including a desire to create in new ways and the challenges of balancing artistic fulfillment with financial stability. Join us for this inspirational conversation.
The Maker, The Mystic, The Soul Healer, The Imaginative Visionary, The Prophetic Critic or the Storyteller? What's your archetype? Take the quiz here!
You can follow Jakari Sherman on Instagram @justjkco
Get connected to Step Afrika!: Website
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Transcript
Introduction to Be Make Do Soul Makers Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
Hey, it's Lisa and Dan. Welcome to the Be Make Do Soul Makers Podcast, where we explore what it takes to pursue your calling as an artist with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom. It's our passion to encourage you to become who you were created to be, make what you were created to make, and do what you were created to do.
Exploring Artist Archetypes
00:00:30
Speaker
So far on this season, we've been talking about the motivation, success, and fulfillment by exploring the six artist archetypes such as the maker, the mystic, the imaginative visionary, the storyteller, the soul healer, and the prophetic critic.
00:00:47
Speaker
And we've got a quiz to help you consider what motivates you to create. So understanding this basic starting point I think is really going to help you identify what's soul filling instead of soul killing for you so that you can make the best choices for your life and career and do the things that you need to do to stay grounded and focused.
00:01:08
Speaker
Well if you want to know what your artist archetype is, head over to soulmakers dot.org backslash quiz and find out or simply just click on the link in our show notes. In addition to exploring these archetypes, this season, we're talking with creatives about how their unique motivations help them overcome challenges and find sometimes really unconventional paths to a fulfilling life in the arts.
Interview with Jakari Sherman
00:01:31
Speaker
In this episode, we'll be talking with Jakari Sherman, founder of Ordered Steps, which is a nonprofit devoted to stepping as youth outreach and community development. Now, Dan, I knew nothing about stepping until I met Jakari. Do you know what stepping is? No. Well, you're about to find out. Okay. It's an incredible um form of dance that's rooted in um history. And I'm going to let Jakari explain everything, but it's it's so powerful because of the the physicality of it, but also because of the community connection piece of it. So it's really, really cool. So I'm excited for us to get to learn about his work.
00:02:13
Speaker
um But that's not all. From 2007 to 2014, Jakari served as the artistic director of Step Africa, which is an incredible company that performs here in D.C. a lot and around the country and around the world. He continues to develop and direct works for that company, including off-Broadway and national tours of most recently Drum Folk and the Migration, reflections on Jacob
Jakari's Multidisciplinary Dance Work
00:02:37
Speaker
Lawrence. And he's currently working on the premiere of a new multidisciplinary dance work.
00:02:42
Speaker
called Our Road Home, which is scheduled to come out in June 2025 for the commemoration of 160 years since emancipation. and he has I want to just kind of keep going with Jakari because he's such an incredible person. He's pioneered the infusion of traditional and contemporary stepping forms into full-length concert dance productions,
00:03:03
Speaker
He's pushed the boundaries of percussive dance as a communicative medium by challenging conventional paradigms and exploring the use of technology, storytelling, and diverse musical scores. Jikari's career, creative voice resounds within the landscape of stepping and is celebrated globally for his contribution to the canon of culture-based storytelling. He's really an incredible person and just a super, super nice down-to-earth guy. So let's get started. Let's do it.
Resonating with Artist Archetypes
00:03:44
Speaker
Welcome, Jakari. Thank you so much for for coming to talk to us on the Be Make Do podcast. I really appreciate it. It's good to see you. Oh, man. Thank you for having me, Lisa. I appreciate that. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I took the quiz a couple of days ago. Yeah. And I thought it was great. like i Really? Did it resonate for you? what ah It really did resonate. It was just good so it was so reflective you know yeah um just ah of what I feel like my well archetype is, but i mean I think it spoke to my personality, it spoke to my sort of artistic voice to some extent. and
00:04:20
Speaker
I mean honestly like I think for any artist like just taking that quiz helps to sort of galvanize for you in some way like you know how you show up in the world the questions were were really good and I don't know about anybody else but like for me I really felt like I fit well into the the archetype so it gave me interesting imaginative visionary, is that it? Yeah. And so um you know reading about like the challenges that you face, like that resonated with me, you know seeing like what the you know what the things are that could sort of help me as that sort of archetype, I felt like were really like valuable things.
00:05:01
Speaker
So I appreciate it just like seeing that and you know, it was really good. It was really good. Yeah. Isn't that crazy just to be able to see something reflected back to you that it's sort of affirming? For sure. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's really intentional there.
00:05:15
Speaker
Yeah, I thought it was really good. So thanks for that. I mean, I think it's it's great information to sort of take and to think about like, okay, now what do I do with this? You know, so and and clearly you have like some next steps there, you know, even this podcast and like ah other artists like seeing that and sharing, you know, who they are, I think it it's great.
00:05:38
Speaker
Yeah. Well, good. Well, I want to get into some more of the specifics and some of your thoughts from that. But before we go there, I'd love for you to share about you, Jakari, and your work with Step Africa and all of the different things that you do as a dancer and a bringer together of people and a creator of visions and things. I can totally see the imaginative visionary. Yeah. Tell us about you and your
Cultural Significance of Stepping
00:06:06
Speaker
work.
00:06:06
Speaker
My background, yeah like I'm a choreographer now. that' That's a word that I never considered myself when I was coming up. I didn't even consider myself an artist. Wow. i Yeah, I came up in the culture of stepping. So primarily, I'm a choreographer within the the form or the tradition of stepping. For those that don't know, stepping yeah is a... Yeah, what is that? It's a percussive movement practice.
00:06:35
Speaker
primarily where we use our hands and our feet to make rhythm to make music and it comes from the african-american greek letter organizations and the cultures and the traditions and the rituals of those organizations and it also has roots longer roots in in sort of the you know enslaved people losing the right to use the drum and having to find ways to put the rhythms and music into their bodies. And so stepping is part of ah a long lineage of traditions like tap dance that come out of that experience. um So that's primarily what my work is. It fits within a larger sort of vocabulary of what we would call a percussive dance. So that would be like tap dance. That would be Irish step dancing. That would be things you see in like stomp.
00:07:22
Speaker
body percussion, and stuff like that. And then I think broader than that, my work sort of fits into sort of a space of dance and theater. I started out um playing a lot of musical instruments, but also having this sort of dual interest in the math in math and sciences. And so pretty much all of my life, I figured I would be an engineer. I went to school for chemical engineering and music, double major. Wow. Yeah, that's some that's some double major. It was really just indecision is probably what it really was.
00:07:54
Speaker
But I found a love for percussion in the marching band. But I also joined the step team, competitive step team, which in Houston in the mid in the early 90s was like really big, like almost to the level of football in some places. And we know how what Texas football is like. So for like about a decade, it was really, really big. And so that was sort of my introduction to movement and to that tradition of stepping was in high school. So that was how I was introduced to it. Continue that into college and began to mentor young people myself um through a stepping and dance. And then while I was coaching, um I got called up to create a step team for the Houston Rockets basketball team here in Houston.
Transition to Artistic Identity
00:08:43
Speaker
Which was pretty cool and that just sort of came out of people seeing the work that like my students were doing and wanting to incorporate that sort of energy into the basketball games. So that was the beginning of my professional stepping career or yeah and even at that time I didn't consider myself an artist.
00:09:02
Speaker
ah But in 2004, I joined Step Africa. Step Africa is a DC-based dance company that that focuses on this tradition of stepping. It was really the only professional company that was dedicated to that tradition. And so in 2004, I joined them to as a part of a delegation to South Africa ah for their international cultural festival.
00:09:25
Speaker
And a year later, I joined the company as a full-time company member. And that was sort of the where I first began to sort of see myself as an artist, because I was working alongside people who actually went to school to be artists, but you know dancers, and all of that sort of thing. ah So that was a new world for me. A couple of years later, um I was the artistic director of the company. So I progressed pretty quickly.
00:09:53
Speaker
in that way to into a leadership position. um And I just really ah ah attribute all of that journey to so God's grace because I didn't study dance. I i mean, I studied music. I never considered it as a career path.
00:10:09
Speaker
But yet I found myself you know in a full-time position and then the artistic director of a full-time dance company um not long after I joined. So I did that for seven years before going back to school to study Ethnocoreology. And so that came just out of an interest in learning more about the roots of the form that I was doing, that tradition of stepping.
00:10:34
Speaker
and wanting to have some methodology to study dance or to study culture in general. and so I found a connection with Irish step dancing as a percussive dance form, so I studied in Ireland for that degree.
Stepping's Roots and Ethnocoreology
00:10:50
Speaker
you know i can That's sort of my artistic career. My journey as a believer has been another parallel journey to to all of that, and we we can get into that as well. But it led me to asking a lot of questions about, as an artist, where what was the place of the artist in the body of Christ, and sort of, I don't know, how do you walk the the walk, if you will, as an artist, and what role can we play, you know, to sort of further the the purpose, the kingdom purpose, if you will. So
00:11:23
Speaker
So I just, I had a lot of those questions and this is like over the last like five years. And so sort of in, I think trying to answer those questions for myself and bringing together other artists that maybe had similar questions or similar challenges that I did as an artist or started believing creative, which is really just a small group that I started here right here in this,
00:11:48
Speaker
studio I'm in is where we we meet. Just as a space for artists to gather to talk about whatever they might be going through in ways that maybe they wouldn't have an opportunity to to dialogue within yeah traditional, I guess, church settings or small group settings. And we focus on reading the Word of God and we pray with and for each other and we eat.
00:12:11
Speaker
And those have been great three things things, good things, man. And so, yeah, we just fellowship over food. We pray. We really just, you know, focus on reading the Word. So that's been my journey. And so right now I'm touring a show and working on some new projects and stuff like that. And yeah, just excited for, I think, the direction that God is moving me, yeah both career and and in my walk with Him.
00:12:39
Speaker
So there's something that you brought up that i I'm going to come back to as I'm hearing this theme about kind of following following the questions and following the spirit. but But backing up before we get to that, I was wondering, you were talking about moving from being an engineer or thinking you were going to be an engineer studying to being a part of this company. And you you said at one point, you know, I didn't know that I was an artist at that point. At what point did it kind of become Like you you kind of sat in that, yeah, okay, I'm an i'm an artist what or i'm a I'm a dancer, I'm a performer, this is a part of who I am. what What kind of clicked that for you? I mean, obviously you were doing the work, but a lot of people um can even struggle to kind of move into that space of owning that part of themselves. Did it sort of just bubble up or what what happened? that's ah That's a great question, I think. which it's The answer to that is a bit layered. I think
00:13:40
Speaker
I could have always considered myself an artist from the standpoint of being a creative or a creator, a creator in the sense that I was making art. So in the in the culture of stepping, you know, we don't come up in sort of in dance studios or, you know, in those so but sort of formal dance spaces, we just, it's something that's passed down, you know, by watching, by repetition, by word of mouth. And so it's just not a space where we consider ourselves in the same sort of category, for lack of a better term, as
00:14:16
Speaker
you know, modern dancers or ballet dancers or singers or that sort of thing. And so I was just the guy that made up steps. Like, you know, like that's that's kind of what you are. And so I was
Tradition vs Art Form in Stepping
00:14:29
Speaker
just one of the guys that was good at making up steps. I didn't necessarily value that for all that it was at the time.
00:14:36
Speaker
um When I joined an arts organization, a dance company, now you're like you're like applying for funding and you have to categorize yourself as, are you an early career artist, a mid-career artist? are you you know What is your form that you practice and all of this? and then when we, you know, i started creating work and, you know, media would press would do, you know, a newspaper article or something and they would talk about the art and they were talking about you as an artist or as a choreographer. So it was really like me hearing that and seeing that influence that made me think about it that way.
00:15:16
Speaker
But what I recognize is that I got to a point where I think I value that more than I should have. I think there's this thing of, you know, the difference between sort of art and tradition and stepping has been it's a tradition. It's more than it was never created for consumption, really. Right.
00:15:35
Speaker
um And it was never created to to deal with like abstract ideas. It was just something that people did as a unifying practice. And so I think when we talk about art, like i'm I'm careful not to sort of elevate art to be something that has that we use to legitimize what is a tradition that's been done for you know decades now. And so I... I recognize that I am an artist for some of the work that I do, but that it's not something that I want to try to use as a as of validation method for the culture and the tradition that I've sort of carried and represented for a lot of years as well. you know so So I think, but it was at that point around 2004, 2005 or 2006 where
00:16:29
Speaker
Like I'm creating work that is that is abstract and and I'm now using stepping the tradition of stepping to create artistic works. You know, I could sort of see myself in that realm, even though like those ideas and those things like, you know, they they were there for a long time.
00:16:48
Speaker
Right. It's so interesting too, it brings to mind the sort of the separation between, you know, art, big A or the fine arts, whatever supposed to be in that category versus where you're talking about these traditions of movement or singing or expression or, you know, craftsmanship. But I i think that's I think that's a really valuable thing to – maybe that's another conversation. But it it hints at how how valuable and important these creative acts and expressions are on a very, very basic human level. I really do believe that God gave us the arts
00:17:28
Speaker
For these reasons and they've been exploded into and exploited into other other things that those other things that marketplace piece of things or like you say say validation or whatever um that makes it.
00:17:44
Speaker
ripe for consumption almost kind of distracts, I think, in a lot of ways from the the real value and power, in my opinion anyway, of the arts, of what they were intended for. And i I think that's so important for especially people of faith, Christians in the arts, to wrestle with and grapple with because yeah it it can become very easy to feel like you have to participate in or become, so quote-unquote, successful within one of these market strategies or categories of big A art, show in this gallery, you know, make this much money, be on this list, whatever, in order to be validated. But for those who are coming from
00:18:28
Speaker
a spiritual place and that's part of their motivation for why they're creating to remember, like you said, the level of of the value within their traditions of what this does for us as humans. And then to elevate it into the space of art means just really to apply a level of professional technique and intentionality and ah you know ah that it can do so many things yeah and be so valuable and important.
00:18:56
Speaker
you know, a lot of that, the the commercial, not necessarily like commercials in terms of like, this the style of work that you do, but meaning like, the elevation, if you will, or you know, the galleries and all of those things, like, they are also access and exposure to to more people. So they it's positive in that way, but I think the question is just how do we, well, first establish like, for me, it's about purpose. How do we establish who we are, what it is that we are going to to say in the world, speak to the world, like where what are we grounded in? And so I think it's about
00:19:36
Speaker
maintaining that regardless of yeah where we are. And I think that becomes the challenge like in in most things where there's a certain draw, a certain appeal of ah fame, of getting ah you know growing and and then changing.
00:19:52
Speaker
to to sort of ah feed an ego thing to to sort of stay there. and And sometimes we can start with the level of integrity. But in trying to feed the fame, ah we sort of shift and make compromises. And so I think it's about like trying to stay rooted, first of all, finding it, establishing that for for oneself, and then to try to maintain that in the midst of growing or not growing is you know by the same token like um we can shoot we try to change because we're not getting to where we what we think success is to your point yeah um and so yeah i think it's just about trying to be grounded i think the
00:20:35
Speaker
What's been interesting for me, I was thinking about this as you were talking, is like because I sort of came up in this culture that was like very niche, like there was no there's no trajectory for being uber successful in stepping.
Success in Niche Art Forms
00:20:52
Speaker
Right. Like there's barely a trajectory for any form of dance. Like there's a trajectory if you're a musician, a singer, an actor, you know, but for dance, there's, you know, people aspire to be a backup dancer. Like that could be the pinnacle of a dancer's career. or You know what I mean? Like that's or a prima ballerina, or you know and so some of those things have a level of prestige, but to some degree, like there's not much to that you can see for yourself. and so i think it's forced me to to sort of like I think there's a certain mentality that is always seeking validation when you feel like you're in a place that is under-recognized or you know
00:21:36
Speaker
And so sort of coming up in that, I think it's forced me to to have to figure out what is important to me. and Like, why am i why am I doing what I'm doing? Like, how do I What makes this important to anybody? And I'm still asking myself that question. This is sort of like, why does this how is this putting food on your table kind of thing? Why is stepping? Why is this important to anybody? And so it's forced me to have to think about like how my work can really connect with people. What am I saying when I make that connection? What is it that um that I want them to connect with?
00:22:13
Speaker
And a lot of those questions I'm still asking, I think part of the journey as an artist is the continual asking of of questions. It's like saying less, asking more, causing people to ask questions. And so I think that's been you know the journey for me. And and as a believer, it's staying in tune with the Holy Spirit to hear what those instructions are. you know What am I supposed to be saying when I'm doing this work? And what what is the process supposed to be within rehearsal, within creating the work? like Because the connection to people starts at that point. It's as much about yeah the rehearsal, working with artists as it is about the audiences.
00:22:59
Speaker
And so I was just thinking about, you know, my purpose for being or my assignment within those spaces from, you know, from beginning to the end. I think I got off topic, but, uh, no, this is right on topic. No, I think that I, I'm starting to see a through line when I talk to people who are in that imaginative visionary category. But I think ah some of the other categories too, I think just as a Christian being a spiritual person, that the questions are often a big part of the motivator and the driver, like,
00:23:29
Speaker
trying and you have a question and you you so seek to explore that, but also that listening, listening for the Holy Spirit and kind of following ah following the path. And I think you were talking about, I think you were saying this, I certainly have experienced this where I can get trapped into looking externally for that validation because what I'm pursuing doesn't have that necessarily a a path for success. Or if you do A, B, C, D, then you know you've you've accomplished the goal. And if I haven't done the work to really sit down and think about, okay, and to ask God, okay, what is the end result of this? Or what is my part of this?
00:24:14
Speaker
When do I know that I've been faithful in this? It is really easy to get distracted by looking to other people or other situations to tell me whether or not I'm on track. And that can be really, really disastrous, personally and creatively. and I think that that's one of the challenges.
00:24:34
Speaker
and i think that is especially true of artists because you know we don't always have the the sort of measuring points. and I don't want to generalize too much, but I do think that you know if you're if you're working on a job that that has clear milestones or you know clear markers as to what you're supposed to be doing at this point or that point,
00:24:57
Speaker
You have regular check-ins to say, talk about what your progress is. But as an artist, there's like the work of of getting there and then there's maybe a big performance at the end or there's something, some big goal or something that you see for yourself down the line. But you don't necessarily have this this regular feedback from from anyone. And I think we can often go to things around us as the as those measures of how we're doing, unfortunately. um yeah and And yeah, those can be very harmful.
00:25:35
Speaker
as comparing ourselves to what other people, other artists are doing. Yeah. have you Have you ever found yourself kind of in that headspace and then had to correct? How how do you correct that for yourself? How do you kind of bring yourself back to a more grounded space?
Fasting from Social Media
00:25:53
Speaker
I mean, honestly, I've i got to a point where I ah had to fast from a lot of the things that were creating those influences. So fasting from social media, like at this point, I've turned off like notifications of, you know, like Instagram and stuff like that. And just being intentional about quieting my mind so that I can focus in on the voice of God as opposed to you know the echoes and the murmurs and the whispers of other voices. And those things always come in. um I think the loudest voice that I tend to hear is my own that wants to compete with what God is saying to me. And so deciphering what is what are my own thoughts, how much am I interjecting
00:26:45
Speaker
what I want or what I believe or what I think, as opposed to just being quiet and hearing what God has to say. I think that's been the challenge, but it's it's it's just been an exercise in in sort of quieting my mind, quieting myself, finding space to you know to just get away from other from distractions, physically get away from distractions, to give myself the sort of the the mental space to to allow God to speak to me and then to be able to sit with that. I think another challenge is patience. you know
00:27:21
Speaker
um because The distractions and the other voices are prevalent. you know They're very present. And you can hear from a lot of things anytime you want. you know With a smartphone, we can get answers to questions immediately. right We can talk to other people immediately. we can get um you know We can go and see what someone else is doing. We can get a lot of ideas. AI can now generate any answers that you want.
00:27:51
Speaker
But hearing from God sometimes takes time and yeah it can be very quiet and it can feel unresponsive when you're waiting to hear from God. And so in that sense of um seeking immediacy, I think that can also distract us and pull us yeah to the the things that we can put our hands on, that we can hear in the moment.
00:28:16
Speaker
ah rather than waiting on God. So I think there's a discipline involved in the waiting and the the patience. i haven't I haven't mastered that, but I think that's the, you know, that's a big part of that the goal.
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah, I really feel that and i it's translating into fasting from that that sense of immediacy, the need need for immediacy to be able to get comfortable with that and sit in that Yeah, I think that gives so much, because I do, I feel that I need to fix whatever the problem is right away, find the solution, move on. But it's because ah of a need for a sense of okayness. Like if everything's in place, then we can do the next thing. And I'm always, you know, what's the next thing as opposed to just being in whatever is and looking for what God has in that space. What can I learn in this space? How can I grow in this space?
00:29:16
Speaker
um and trusting that that I'll be able to deliver to the best of my ability, you know, and that's sometimes enough and sometimes not enough in in whatever, um you know, whatever I'm expected or required to do in that moment. So that sure yeah that really resonates for me too. I guess fundamentally it's just it's that leaning on our own understanding. like it's It's wanting to know, wanting wanting it wanting to make sense of things or to be able to to control things to the to the extent yeah that we we know what's going to happen or we're we're able to mold our circumstances yeah to what we want them to be.
00:30:00
Speaker
yeah And so it's that seeking to to not lean on our own understanding and to to and to trust God and that you know yeah that space of trusting is, yeah.
00:30:13
Speaker
Well, I think what you're saying resonates so much with with what we're we're trying to do with the Be Make Do podcast of focusing on that developing your ah your spiritual disciplines and focus and commitment to you know your identity.
00:30:30
Speaker
as rooted in God and being very intentional about that and that then what you're creating is coming out of that as opposed to you know looking as a Christian what does it look like to be in these whatever space you're in to not get so focused on that space not get so focused on what the outcome is going to be or what you're creating but starting from the beginning how are you approaching that how are you shaping who you are, how are you allowing yourself to be shaped so that what comes out of you is glorifying to God just because it's a natural outpouring of who you are and and then allowing that to go in so many different different ways um because of what God might do with it.
00:31:17
Speaker
That resonates with um conversations that I've had with artists here in Houston and other places where I don't know, sometimes I think there's a tension. Like you have artists who are actively serving in ministry, you know, music or whatever it might be like at their church. But then you have artists who are believers who they're just creating work or their maybe it's their job or whatever it might be. and So that is attention. like should i be you know said all my work like Should all my work say, should all my music like be about, like should it should I be saying Jesus every time I write a song? should i you know like And I think those are real questions that
00:32:05
Speaker
that artists grapple with. And even like artists who are, maybe they're not at the point of you know professional artistry yet or professional career um as creators and sort of figuring out like what it looks like like, how they will make a living and maybe grappling with like that doesn't seem commercial, that doesn't seem viable as a career to, you know, to only do this certain type of work. um And so I think that's a good thing to think about because I think for me, I realize now that a lot of the work that I've done and or, you know, the the things that God, the doors that God has opened for me has been about me being in those rooms with people. It's not just about what I'm creating at all.
00:32:52
Speaker
It's just about being in the room with with people and and being a representation of Christ and an example of somebody just trying to trying to live that life um as a as a testimony, as a ah model for somebody who may need to see it or just to be in the room to pray with somebody or you know and so I think we have to think more broadly about why we're in those spaces and um what it is that we are supposed to be doing and and just carrying that light with us all the time to our best ah the best of our ability because you never know why you're called to be in ah in a particular space and ended it being more than just about like the end goal of what you're creating.
00:33:38
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Well, that makes me curious. I remember the last time that we talked, you you brought up like your curiosity or you're wondering about um like step in particular and and that movement, like what's what's in there and what's behind. like So I'm just wondering for you, what with the movement itself, the dance itself,
00:34:05
Speaker
um I mean, I've seen i've seen um videos of some of the the work that you've choreographed and there's there's a lot of artistry in there and there's a lot of things being said and explored and it's really powerful. What what is it about the art form for you that is that sparks your curiosity and kind of draws you?
00:34:26
Speaker
but stepping became something that I looked at and I could see like a level of like strength and power and masculinity. And yeah, the guys, the the upperclassmen just looked cool when they were up there stepping. But then as a musician, and at the time I was sort of a new percussionist, new to percussion. And I was really drawn to just the, I don't know, there's ah just a visceral quality about people.
00:34:52
Speaker
only using their bodies to to make music and to to do something. you know like There's no other instrument. there's no It's just the body and the floor that they're stepping on. and There's something powerful about that and doing it in unison with one another. so there was something There's a community, a communal element to stepping um that resonated as well and that sort of the unity and syncopation of it you know musically. and just you know and so So it was that and there's a social element to it as well, which I'm ah i'm an introvert. So stepping was a sense of community, ah ah a brotherhood, if you will, where I could come together with people um who were, you know, like-minded,
00:35:40
Speaker
and um and make things together and you know perform on stage. In thinking about the form of stepping, there was the mechanics of it, the unity of it, and the intensity of it. So those became sort of the the fundamental principles that I use to define sort of the qualities of stepping and relating the mechanics to the physical world and the unity to the sort of social man's relationship with man and intensity as a man's relationship with God. And so I think in in any field of practice, I think this is sort of my, I guess, getting theoretical to some yeah extent or philosophical, but I think that
00:36:24
Speaker
those three realms sort of define like the human experience, um how we relate to the to the world physically, see, to you know touch, just all the senses, how we relate to one another, which is essentially our soul. like That's who we are, you know mind, emotion, and will. though That's who we are as people, and we relate to each other that way.
00:36:45
Speaker
And then we have a spirit that relates to God. And so, um I've found that through line with stepping. And I think that through line, it exists in every other area that I've come across, even as i you know as a part-time graphic designer and you know and all the other endeavors that I've found, I can see those three things, the physical part and there's a social part and there's a spiritual part that really defines what any practice is. If we can get to that, then we can find the essence of what a thing is and we're able to find
00:37:23
Speaker
like fulfill purpose within that particular genre, if we're touching all of those three areas. Um, and so, so in that way, like I've been able to connect stepping to, you know, to like all of life, really, um, and use that as a foundation for, you know, my connection of stepping to, to God and my spiritual walk and, and and that regard.
00:37:50
Speaker
I love that and I love that as a way of thinking about art making whatever it is or creative activity, whatever it is that you do in that threefold way um that grounds it in this something bigger in God and in life and connection to other people.
00:38:11
Speaker
um ah For me, this is a really important conversation to elevate within communities of creatives and artists who are Christians. to think like When you're talking about these things, this is where I start to say, yes, that's what it means to be a Christian who is making, who is creating. Yes. Sometimes it is it can be evangelistic. Yes, sometimes it can be a witness. Yes, it can be all of these things, but there is something very deeper beyond our categories and labels like this walking with God and this learning to be in concert with the Holy Spirit and whatever you're doing. I think there's there's a natural affinity, a natural road with the arts that that's already what the arts want to do. And so being able to kind of
00:39:00
Speaker
I don't know, lean into that and and use yeah our artistic and creative language to describe these things. I think it's really helpful as we try to to navigate what it looks like to be a creative in the 21st century. For sure. And it is a grounding. like it's It's just the thing that that centers I don't want to say center as a person, but that feels a little, but um but it's just, it's the starting point um that that gives you the foundation from which to evangelize or to like whatever the whatever the thing is, like however a person wants to to take their gift to ah to to be in the world, then I think it's just a way to sort of ground you
00:39:52
Speaker
um before determining like what the application is for you know one's particular situation or you know again, how they show up in the world. Right.
00:40:04
Speaker
Well, ah so for you then, kind of going back to this motivations and the quiz and stuff like that, what what what from that quiz kind of ah was sparking for you or speaks like how, how why do you, i can I can tell like there's a lot of different things going on, but there are a lot of things underneath that seem to to drive you. It's almost like the expression is one thing, but there's,
00:40:31
Speaker
There's something more. what what What does motivate you and what but keeps you going? I think I'm i' i'm largely driven by you know by doing things in new ways, I think is a large part of it. For me, it's about I'm a unique person. God made me like not like anyone else. And so what I have to say, how I say it, um I think ought to be different from what anyone else is doing. and The, the extent to which it's different is, you know, it can be a little bit different. It can be slightly different. It can be very different, but I'm always looking for how can I say this in a new way? How can I create this? How can I,
00:41:16
Speaker
you know, how can I do it differently? And so I think like innovation is a big motivator for me. Um, and that can be, that can look like about a lot of things I've, you know, innovated with movement, in with music, with technology, with storytelling, like, you know, in a lot of different ways, or at least I try to, and it's not like trying to be different just for different sake, but it's just thinking of, so I sort of operate from a, almost like a problem solving mentality. I think it's like the engineer scientist in me,
00:41:46
Speaker
You know, the old school scientific method, like problem hypothesis, you know, like that's sort of my approach, even in making the work that I make. I'm always looking for, like, what is the purpose for for this project, this particular project? and Sometimes that is sort of my own thing that I want to explore. Sometimes it's a purpose that's sort of, you know, given to you or someone wants to create something they come to you and say, I want to do, I want to produce something like this, like help me to make that. But it's always starting with that. And for me,
00:42:20
Speaker
it's I'm always seeking to connect that purpose with something that is important to me. um and Ultimately, like ultimately like we all have the same calling as believers to make disciples. like that's not We all have the same calling, but we have different assignments.
00:42:38
Speaker
i think that and that we are working in working on and working in in order to achieve that. And so I'm like i'm always looking at it each project as the fulfillment of and ah an assignment. And so determining what that assignment is. And then from there, developing concepts that that meet that, developing concepts that speak to that purpose, that speak to that assignment. And then the form from there just you know it just flows from from the concept. Yeah. um And so, yeah, that's and and I think in terms of motivation, you know, I try to stay connected to things that are that are inspiring to me, you know, reading books or going to museums or
Inspiration Beyond Dance
00:43:21
Speaker
whatever. I tend to be inspired less by watching other dance than I am by architecture and visual art. um I love all types of music. And so I find more
00:43:35
Speaker
inspiration and motivation from um from those things because, again, as an innovator, i I don't like the influence of things that are similar to what I do because I, you know, I feel like it's going to rub off on my own work. And yeah you know i know and so yeah I just I stay away from things that are similar to what nothing I stay away from them, but I find myself kind of cringing a little bit when I'm in that regard. So um But I'm very much inspired by architecture and visual art and music um yeah and you know and theater and a lot of different things. but
00:44:15
Speaker
so yeah Well, kind of it's sort of a tangential question, but I'm thinking about your career path, right? Going from studying to be an engineer to taking this opportunity to do something that you're interested in, becoming passionate about it, you know getting job offers, different you know putting yourself out there.
00:44:38
Speaker
This question of how to make a living in a creative field is obvious is like one that's always just underneath the surface whenever talking to an artistic person. you know How to maintain that balance between being fulfilled creatively and artistically and how to pay the bills and and then like impact and success and all that kind of stuff come into it. But I i i also notice a pattern with a lot of creatives where the people who are willing to put the time and effort in to really develop and hone their skill and then willing to put themselves in positions where people know what they can do and they're not afraid to ask for opportunities or to put themselves in places where they can experience, like things just seem to happen. did Like what,
00:45:35
Speaker
what is What would your advice be, I guess, to somebody who who kind of shares your sensibility about, you know, I think it's easy to get afraid of not following a career path that's going to be um can you know consistent or predictable. And yet there does seem to be some level of security in being able to follow follow a call, follow a leading. Yeah, I feel there's a couple of things that come to mind.
Advice on Specialization and Grace
00:46:05
Speaker
um I think I started my career as an artist with the sentiment. So my childhood, like Pastor, had a saying that that he would say, specialize until you're special. um And so I approached everything with that in mind that if you have something that's a unique gift that you know God has given you,
00:46:29
Speaker
then you just specialize in that thing. You just really develop it. You just really spend your time on it. Like you plunge your resources into that special that thing that makes you special to the point that you're the only one that does it or you're the only one that does it the way that you do it or to the level that you do it. And I think that's what I try to do in the space of stepping. And I think that has made a way for me, not because of anything that I've done. like in you know like Yes, hard work is important, but it's like sometimes we can it can be overrated like because we think that it's all in our own power and it's all in our own muscle and effort that's going to get us somewhere, and all of that's important. But but God can do so much more like while we're asleep than we can do
00:47:25
Speaker
while we're pushing and muscling and trying to do all of that. so and I didn't always have that level of faith. um I do come from a space where you know hard work is the way to way to go. like It's what is rewarded, it is what's celebrated.
00:47:42
Speaker
but I had to just do what I was doing and you know just really specialize in that even when I didn't know where the opportunities were going to come. um But they did. and you know I may not be the picture of success as an artist, but I've been able to do what I love to do and I've been you know i've been okay.
00:48:07
Speaker
um i you know God has shown me a lot of different things in the world and been able to travel. and um He's placed me in conversation with a lot of different people, a lot of different types of people. um and He you know has placed me in positions to have some impact um for the kingdom, and I'm grateful for that. When it comes to making a living, I think there's some separation that we have to consider.
00:48:36
Speaker
that our, we say our calling or our, you know, our assignment may not be connected to a vocation, you know, it's not always the thing that makes you money. We like to think about what we're called to do as the thing that is our life's work that's going to make us money and make us fame or, you know, that's going to have this huge impact in the world. But again, the impact may be the people that you meet,
00:49:05
Speaker
right, you know, in the community that that you are are allowed to be in. So and sometimes we have a vocation that can support that, you know, and it can just be the thing that, you know, earns us money to give us the freedom to do the work that we really want to do or we we feel like God is calling us to do. yeah um And that's okay that we have to make, we have to do a job, we have to wait tables, we have to do this other thing to pay the bills so that we are we don't have to use our art to
00:49:35
Speaker
Make all the money and we have some freedom in that regard. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, so I like to ask this question. What does it feel like for you when you've created something or you're a part of something that just sort of like fits the center of everything that motivates you every like when you're just in that zone and how does that feel? How do you how does that feel for you? First of all, it's it's it's humbling to see all the pieces come together and know that you didn't do it. yeah you know like Because when you' when it's at that point, you know like ah this like i didn't like I wasn't this good. you know what i mean like i didn't mean I couldn't have made this line up like this. i mean when you see i mean The last couple of major productions I've done,
00:50:34
Speaker
ah you know, to just see the pieces come together, to see the stories, like moments in the story that connect with other moments in the story, like you begin to see the through line of a work and, you know, you begin to, for me as a choreographer, director, you see the movement connect well with the music and just like, when you just see the elements lining up, you realize like,
00:50:56
Speaker
this is This is not me. And and I think, um so it's just humbling and it's it's it's a joy to be a part of it. yeah you know It's a joy to be to have been chosen to bring this forth or to just be, it's almost like I'm sitting back like in awe of what God has done when that happens. um The challenging parts are when it's not lining up and it's like,
00:51:24
Speaker
Again, you're trying to like muscle it through. It's like, oh, I got to make this work. i gotta um and That's like frustrating. But there's just so much joy and like the release. Yeah. know of yeah you know that's That's the beautiful thing. I love that.
00:51:39
Speaker
This has been so great. I really appreciate you talking with us, Shikari. I am so excited to to keep following your work and to hear what's happening with Believe in Creative. I'm just really excited to know you and know that you're out there. and If other people want to um get connected with you or want to learn more about Step Afrika or other people, where could they find you?
00:52:03
Speaker
Um, I guess social is probably the best for me at just Jayco J U S T J K C O is my, um, Instagram. I'm not like super big on social media, but I'm also growing, um, that as a, you know, continue to grow, um, my work and spread the work that I'm doing. Um, the step Africa performance step Africa.org is the website Africa with the K and you can see all of the, um, the dates there for the upcoming shows and follow the work that I'm doing there. And.
00:52:33
Speaker
and all of those things. So yeah, and I can always connect you with Believe in Creative if you just find me on social media. So I love to hear from folks. Good. Well, we'll put all of that in the show notes for the podcast episode so people can find that there too. and But it has been such a pleasure to talk to you. I really appreciate you and I'm so glad to know you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you. I will be following you as well and we'll be in touch and Looking forward to great things. Good, good.
00:53:19
Speaker
In our next episode, we'll be talking about the Soul Healer. Spoiler alert, this is Dan's archetype. Join us next time.
00:53:30
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Be Make Do, a Soulmakers podcast. All links and resources are located in our show notes. Want to know your artist archetype? Take the quiz at soulmakers dot.org backslash quiz.