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Artist Archetypes with Tami Dixon
298 Plays3 months ago
"...When I saw adults for the first time on stage, saying lines, being other people, showing their emotions, having cathartic experiences, I was like, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life!" - Tami Dixon
In this episode of the Be. Make. Do. podcast, Tami Dixon, an actor, playwright, and co-artistic director of Bricolage Theater Company, discusses with Lisa her journey as an artist. She reflects on the challenges of ego and the need for resilience, highlighting the transformative power of art and the importance of being present, compassionate, and playful. Join us for this intimate conversation on the challenges and joys of The Storyteller Archetype.
The Maker, The Mystic, The Soul Healer, The Imaginative Visionary, The Prophetic Critic or the Storyteller? What's your archetype? Take the quiz here!
Track the latest with Tami's production company, Bricolage:
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Websites - www.bricolagepgh.org, www.entertheimaginariumpgh.com
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Be Make Do' Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello, welcome to Be Make Do, a Soul Makers podcast where we explore art making and creativity from a place of deeper calling and encourage you to become who you were created to be, make what you were created to make and do what you were created to do. That's right. And in this season, we're talking about motivation, success and fulfillment by exploring the six artist archetypes, which include the maker,
00:00:36
Speaker
the mystic, the imaginative visionary, the storyteller, the soul healer, and the prophetic critic. Ooh, they all sound really interesting. They do.
Discover Your Artist Archetype Quiz
00:00:47
Speaker
Well, you can find out which of the archetypes you are by taking this neat little quiz that we created to help us explore and become really conscious of what motivates and excites you to make what you were created to make.
00:01:04
Speaker
Because even though creatives have some similarities, we are all very different in our unique gifts and talents, but especially in why we do what we do, why we make what we make. So this quiz, this tool,
00:01:21
Speaker
It's all about helping us to start thinking about what motivates us, what drives us, so that we can think about our career path, our life in the arts from ah the perspective of fulfilling that calling and fulfilling the deeper things in us and hopefully avoid getting caught in traps around striving for some idea of success or a career that might not really fit you.
00:01:48
Speaker
So in addition to exploring those archetypes, we're also going to be talking with creatives about how their unique motivations help them overcome challenges and find sometimes unconventional paths to a fulfilling life in the arts.
00:02:02
Speaker
And if you're not sure which artist archetype you are, go ahead and go to www.soulemakers.org backslash quiz and find out. In our previous episode, we explored the storyteller, which was really interesting and eyeopening for me. Yeah.
00:02:19
Speaker
We looked at the motivations, the challenges, and what's necessary to thrive. So if you haven't had a chance to listen to that episode, please go back and definitely do that when you get a chance. Yeah.
Introducing Tammy Dixon
00:02:31
Speaker
So in this episode, we are going to be talking with Tammy Dixon, who's the co-artistic director of Brookalage Theatre Company in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
00:02:41
Speaker
Tammy's archetype is the storyteller. And so I'm really looking forward to hearing from her on all of this. So let's get into it. Let's do it.
00:03:00
Speaker
So Tammy Dixon is an actor, playwright, producer, and co-artistic director of Brickolage Theatre Company in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cleveland, Ohio, she graduated from Carnegie Mellon University and lived and worked in New York City before moving to Pittsburgh and becoming an important fixture of the city's art scene. Tammy and I attended CMU together, and even though until very recently we hadn't talked in however many years that might have been,
00:03:27
Speaker
I've been a huge fan of your work from afar. I love your non-traditional, devised theater work, your community-oriented um focus, um and just your commitment to the the greater cultural life of the city. So, I mean, Tammy is an incredible actor and a really warm and generous person, and I just thank you so much for being here.
00:03:49
Speaker
Oh Lisa, thank you so much. I'm so honored to to be asked to to be on your show. Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely. I've always been a fan.
00:04:01
Speaker
So, okay, so, Tammy, tell me about bric-a-lage and your work as a playwright and and just a little bit about how you develop your work or what you're
Brickolage Theatre Philosophy
00:04:09
Speaker
working on. Yeah, bric-a-lage is a word that means making artful use of what's at hand. And so my partner and I, Jeffrey Carpenter, Jeffrey started the company in 2002 was their first show, 2001 the company formed.
00:04:25
Speaker
I came on board in 2005 and most of the work they were doing before I came on board was original um plays um in site-specific places. I came on board and we found a home and started to think about um how we were going to survive as theater makers, how we're going to last, what our meaning was going to be on the landscape. and you know I went to acting school. I spent 10 years in New York. I know nothing about administration or running anything. you know I could barely send out headshots when we had to do that. you know
00:05:12
Speaker
um So I was sort of thrown right into the fire. And I read this book called Mission Based Management. And one of the things that stuck with me was list 10 reasons why you are different from like companies. So 10 reasons why we're different from the other theater companies that were already in Pittsburgh. And we could barely name three. I mean we were yeah a young company but to think about ten really inspired us and was the impulse for us beginning to think outside of the box and it began our journey to start thinking about our relationship with the audience. um You know I always like to say
00:06:00
Speaker
Without an audience, you're just rehearsing. And I love rehearsal, but rehearsal doesn't pay the bills. You know yeah can't just rehearse all day. I would love nothing more than to wake up in the morning and go right into a rehearsal and start messing around with people and do improv games and have fun and lay around and you know dream about work. But you need the audience there um for everything.
00:06:27
Speaker
You know, um for the connection, for the feedback, um for the energy. I think in this age of where we're on our devices, where we're connected, where we're able to make content at the you know touch of our thumb prints,
00:06:43
Speaker
um there is a longing for a deeper connection to the work that we see and so immersive work for us started the relationship being much deeper asking our audience to be uncomfortable perhaps to um not just be an anonymous, you know, homogenous sort of audience, but be an individual with their individual feelings and individual opinions and their entire life experience, bringing that to bear on an encounter that they might have by themselves with another artist and
00:07:25
Speaker
and That encounter would be unique to that artist and that audience member because there's no one else in the world like that artist and that audience member coming together in this encounter that we have set up um so that something happens. And I often say, I don't really care about what that something is that happens.
00:07:51
Speaker
I just care that something happens like if you leave the theater or leave the whatever space we're in the exact same Then we have failed but if you leave Kind of mad That's okay Because something has happened if you leave full of joy awesome um if you leave more curious if you leave with something having had opened up in you, maybe something you haven't um thought about in a while, maybe it ah triggered something. I don't necessarily think triggering is a bad word because if it's being triggered, it it means it wants to come out. It wants to get out of you. It's like the poison that's in you. You've got to get that out. and if something
00:08:37
Speaker
allows that to come to the surface, good, good, so it can be, ri you can get
Tammy's Theater Inspiration
00:08:42
Speaker
rid of it. you know And that sort of cleansing that I think a cathartic artistic experience brings to yeah all of us, the artist and the audience, is why I i i do it. you know It was the original cathartic experience I had when I was in fourth grade and saw my first professional theater piece and was blown away by everything but most of all that adults were pretending. Adults were having fun. They were playing. Most of the adults in my life as a child were so serious and fearful and um trying their best to survive this world.
00:09:30
Speaker
When that's the mentality, there's not a lot a lot of room for play. So when I saw adults for the first time on stage saying lines, being other people, showing their emotions, like having hardic experiences, I was like, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. Yeah. Yeah. How do I get up on that stage? Let me up there right now.
00:09:53
Speaker
I think that's so incredible. And it and I'm resonating with with so much of what you're saying.
Impact of Pandemic on Theater
00:09:59
Speaker
And I think at this time, like you you're talking about, you know, living on screens. And I really thought about that in the pandemic, especially when everyone was so isolated. Well, I wondered, what will this do to live performance as well? Like, will there be even more of a need for what you're putting out there on offer, which is which is you're actually stepping into something live that you can't control and um is more vulnerable and is more um evocative on so many levels. I mean, that's why you have to be a very um present, aware, and compassionate type of artist to do this work because it's not about it's not about the actor as much. It's about the actor in the moment, but it's not about the ego of the actor because
00:10:52
Speaker
You know, these actors don't get applause after. yeah You know, the experience happens. That audience member moves on. That participant moves on. Another person comes in. So it's it's not for public viewing. It's not for the bow. It's not for the ego. It's for something much greater. It's for something holy.
00:11:12
Speaker
it's for something spiritual and if you're not into that then this is not the work for you. right you know um What happens between the actor and the participant is so so special and it's for them.
00:11:26
Speaker
I've been an actor in these pieces and there's nothing like it. It is high wire work. yeah Um, and it's not always going to go the way you want it to go. And it might fall flat, but so is life. We don't wake up in the morning with a script next to our nightstand. And then we perform that that day, you know, um, the point is,
00:11:55
Speaker
The actor has a beginning, middle, and end of the encounter. And the hope is they navigate you know in an organic way through those those touch points, getting to the end of this perhaps four, five minute experience. yeah And something has transpired between two people.
Understanding Artistic Motivation
00:12:18
Speaker
um So you're not the only requirement we're really has it is don't come drunk. Don't come high. like Be able to be present. You are. Yeah, be who you are. And that will make your experience so much better. You will be open to whatever you're wanting to receive at that at that moment. yeah But it really is up to the two people that are there, the artist and the audience. And those positions interchange.
00:12:47
Speaker
because sometimes the artist that we have hired becomes the audience member for the participant who turns into an artist in the moment by expressing whatever is is touched and and moves through them in that in that experience.
00:13:04
Speaker
yeah I feel the passion that you're speaking with about the work that you do. and That i mean that kind of takes us into our our motivations thing. like We're talking about this archetype quiz that we created. that just yeah It's designed for fun, but the idea is to turn us on to thinking about the things that really motivate us to create especially when you're in a ah place in your life and your career where you're trying to decide what that looks like. What does success mean for you? Or what does fulfillment or what does a what can a career look like for you? Because I think so many people get yeah automatically stuck in just like, well, you go to LA and you become a star. that's That's it. It's either that or not.
00:13:50
Speaker
And that's not true at all. yeah And understanding what motivates you, what what gets you excited and turns you on is the biggest one of the biggest keys to figuring out, okay, what does this life look like for me? Because as an artist, it can look so many different ways.
00:14:07
Speaker
so Yeah, I mean, I know you when you took the you
Tammy's Storytelling Journey
00:14:11
Speaker
took the quiz. Thank you very much. And when you did you ah scored, I think your highest was the storyteller. And then I think there was like prophetic critic or imaginative visionary is the the secondary one or something like that. But That's basically, I think, a storyteller. It makes sense for somebody who does theater and does what you do. like You have this ability to see different pieces and see things in a different way and want to help other people see things in a different way and have a different experience and you know kind of believe in that the power of of what that artistic experience can do. like Does that resonate for you? did that to
00:14:48
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, I was 80% storyteller and then 20% something else. And then I always focus on what I'm not, right? I mean, that was zero in the other ones. I'm like, why am I not? That's not true. It's called mystic person. It's probably a mystic piece in you. Well, not on that quiz. But you know, like, you always want what you don't have. And then you get what you think you want. And then you don't want that or else you want more. I mean, something never enough. And I You know, um to add to to know the big why, why we're here, why we do this, what motivates us is such a challenging question because
00:15:28
Speaker
You know, the the and i'm I'm older now. And yeah, when I was younger, I wanted to be famous. I thought that was gonna be the answer to all my problems. right You know, when I'm famous, all these other things will line up. And and and really all the inside, ah my insides will feel right, finally. Because I was searching for, um you know, I was searching for externally what only can happen internally. And I don't know if the 20 year olds you know, without life experience would know that, right you know, would even think along those lines. I wasn't thinking along those lines. I was thinking about more and get and, and work and, you know, whatever I need to do to get where I think I need to be, that's going to make me feel okay. You know, and then,
00:16:20
Speaker
I get to my dream job or the thing that I think is going to catapult me to the next level. And it's not all that I imagined. It's nothing that I imagined. It doesn't do the job because it's not that.
00:16:37
Speaker
That's not the job it's supposed to supposed to do. All that was supposed to do was give me life experience, teach me what I need to know. But when when I was younger, I wasn't intro interested in learning lessons. I was just interested in getting what was mine, what I thought was mine. right you know And as I'm older,
00:16:56
Speaker
And I'm thinking still about, I don't know if I actually like step out into the world and and think about the why before I do it.
Shift from Fame to Inner Peace
00:17:07
Speaker
um I'm just sort of like along for the ride. you know like What am I supposed to do today? yeah And can I be present enough to do that? And can I stop resisting the flow of life?
00:17:23
Speaker
in order to get what I think I need. You know I've spent years trying to get what I think I need and it was never enough and it was never what I needed and so now I'm practicing to get out of the way of the flow and just you know like float and come what may and and and and not you know strive.
00:17:48
Speaker
It's not that I don't try. It's not that I don't work. you know It just feels to me at this old age that that what I actually want is peace and inside. yeah And that doesn't come in a relationship. And that doesn't come with my name in the paper.
00:18:11
Speaker
And that doesn't come in an Amazon box. you know yeah It doesn't come in a bottle. you know like It doesn't come from all the places I was seeking it. And so I'm i'm just trying to figure out where where it comes from. And the more I can be in the presence of the moment, the more I realize it's not something to seek.
00:18:35
Speaker
It's just something to relax into, you know?
Advice for Young Artists
00:18:41
Speaker
um
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah. I feel like if there's anything you I could tell a young person, it's just to know that they're okay. yeah That it'll be okay. And that everything that happens if you let it, is there to teach you something. And if you could remove shame and judgment and guilt from the the lesson learning, what you will have is the keys to the kingdom. And then you can move forward in your life in joy and not in
00:19:28
Speaker
the pain of the ego forcing you to do things that you shouldn't be doing or can't do, you know to try and fit into a type or into um an idea of success.
00:19:45
Speaker
Yeah, you know um Nothing about my life right now would I at 20 be like that's what I feel like Success enjoy not nothing. I mean I I feel thankful For all the gifts that that I've been given but you know, I was thinking about this For most of my life. I didn't think about um what I've been given as a, um what I'm here to do on earth. And I think I'm here to to be a storyteller. That's what I that's what i think. That's what I've always loved to do and that's what I've wanted to do. And the through line of all of that is play, you know, for all of my life. What's the purpose? What motivates me? It's not changing the world that motivates me. That is like, I don't have the power for for that. But in my joy,
00:20:40
Speaker
and my joy comes from playing, I can have some effect on the world, some positive influence on the world. I don't know, I'm probably like rambling and going off on the stage. No, not at all, no. I love it.
Project Selection and Vulnerability
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah and I mean how does that kind of play into how you decide what projects you're going to take on or you know whether you're going to do you're going to audition for this role or you're going to work on this play or you're going to partner with these people like has that changed over time how you kind of make decisions for what you're yeah Yes, absolutely. Back in the day, I would say yes to everything because I was afraid to say no. Because if I said no, then I wouldn't get the chance again. Like, this is my only opportunity. The window is this small. Like, I was living in such scarcity around everything. Like, there's not enough money. There's not enough time. There's not enough love, you know, which is not true. But if you live in that world, then that is true, right? So I was living in that world.
00:21:39
Speaker
And i so I said was saying yes to everything, getting so burned out, doing things that weren't mine to do, forcing myself into situations and places that I didn't belong. I was there because there was something for me to learn, right? But um hard, those are hard lessons, harsh lessons, you know? And, you know, motivation was all based in ego. Right. What's going to get me, you know, more attention?
00:22:07
Speaker
You know, my my unending need for attention is so exhausting. I don't know if you're allowed to curse on this podcast. Go for it. I'm trying not to. It's so fucking exhausting. My unending need for attention. You know, I'm trying to like work back from from that and ask myself, what what what am I lacking? Like, why don't I value myself as I am? Why am I seeking the external, you know, um glory from people and the outside?
00:22:37
Speaker
Why don't I already feel that? you know What's going on in here that I don't already feel that? And that's the work, right? Because if I felt that, then I would enter the world in a space where I didn't need your, I didn't need you. And not that I don't need you because we need each other, but I'm not requiring you to play a role in my life. I'm not assigning you a script and a character to play in my life. And when you do it well, I'm happy. And when you don't do it well, I'm upset. you know that's That's taking hostages. you know That's not relationship, right? So enough living like that Exhausting myself, you know burning out then rejecting the the industry and and and let me just say like, you know after a while you live in a small town like I live in and and you know, it's such a it's such a catch-22 like
00:23:33
Speaker
You know, after a while I don't have to audition for things because I have a reputation, right? And, but then I start feeling like a fraud because I'm handed things and I don't have to do the the the work. And then, so I'm carrying around this, like this fraud feeling that I'm going to be found out that I'm not really who you think i I am. And I don't deserve to be here. So then I'm working extra hard. It's just ridiculous, you know? And then when I have to audition, I'm like, how dare you? Do you know what I am? like So in insidious, this ego, right?
00:24:09
Speaker
And then, you know, we live and die on the reviews, like we're publicly reviewed by people. You know, like I have such, like I'm so, I am like paper thin. You know, I'm so, you blow me over with a feather, right? Like,
00:24:28
Speaker
um I'll fight you but don't look at me sideways, you know, like it's so it's like this dichotomy that I that I carry and and that's because I'm still relying You know for a long time was still relying on on other people's opinions to value me to give me my sense of value And when you're reviewed in the paper, I mean, it's hard to not be hurt by a negative view. It's hard and you know and then so you don't want to have you know you you just i didn't grow in resilience from that you know i didn't i didn't get to be teflon and i and i don't want to be teflon anyway but i wasn't able to to say oh that is one person's opinion who happens to have the public pulpit you know i wasn't able to like exist and then i still am not good at at that
00:25:14
Speaker
So then I don't perform at all. you know i i you know ah just don't ah Instead of working on the thing, which is my own relationship with my ego and my own relationship with the world, I decide I'm going to cut off the very thing that I feel like I'm born to do.
00:25:30
Speaker
And that brings me the most joy, you know, so then I get harder and you know, it just it just builds a It calcifies my heart, you know, and it it it just doesn't you know Then then the the play is no longer a part of my life, right? right and so that that happened and you know, um you get older and you let go of things and you change and you And you know, it's, it's let go or be dragged, right? And, um, ooh that's a good one you have, you have a ah bottom, you reach a bottom maybe, and your bottom can get lower. But, but, but if you're, if you're, you know, it, Rumi has a poem about the light comes in through the wound, right? And if you're wounded enough and you're all out of fight,
00:26:27
Speaker
there is a moment where you can let go yeah and and stop fighting and allow the light to come in through the wound and and shine on a different path. yeah So, you know, i so i I began a relationship again with acting because a couple of years ago I was asked to audition for something and my first thought was, nope, because I went right to getting a bad review And i didn't want I didn't know how to handle it. I couldn't handle it. And then I thought, whoa, I don't want to live my life like that anymore. ah don't want I don't want my ego to dictate you know my my my existence. And so I i i you know i prayed to like help me to find my joy again in this yeah and to uncover
00:27:26
Speaker
um the the beating heart of this purpose that I think I'm here for.
Balancing Success and Fulfillment
00:27:32
Speaker
And so and you're doing this from a place of success. like You're very successful within your your theater career, like the producing and the singing. You're doing a lot, but then there's this other piece that you're... What is success? What I mean is like you're not doing it from a place of, I'm not doing anything in my artistic life.
00:27:49
Speaker
You're on paper. Exactly. You're following these like on paper. Everything looks great. Right. But there's a piece of you that's not. Yeah. But it's not that deeper thing that you're longing for. Yeah. Yeah. It's not eternal. It's not real. You know, it's it's not love. It's all based on ego. And um that, you know, that's running on my own power. And I don't have enough power you know, for for all those years. It's just exhausting.
00:28:20
Speaker
You know, yeah, it's really freeing when you can just kind of say, you know what, I'm not enough. Okay, and I don't have to be ah yeah need to be. Yes, surrender to win surrender to win, you know, and I like my ego at 20 could not get with that. Yeah, surrender was weakness, you know, praying was weakness, you know, relying on a power grave of myself weakness, you know, I couldn't get with it because I came from scarcity. And I knew what it felt like to have the rug pulled out from under me. And I knew what it was like to beg.
00:28:50
Speaker
and I didn't want to beg. I'd be damned if I'm going to beg. I'm going to fight." So it became this fight, you know and it was just exhausting. and So yeah, I am working from a place of on paper, the resume looks good. you know um Of course, it's not enough for me, you know right but people who who um you know are just starting out or maybe haven't had the that kind of success would look at me and be like, what are you complaining about, girl?
00:29:21
Speaker
And this is what I mean. like All of that pomp, all of that outside, it's it's not real. what What really is real is here. And in here, I was suffering.
00:29:33
Speaker
and um so I just decided I'm not going to live in fear. I'm not going to allow fear to tell me what to do or what not to do. And so I thought the first step was like, let me, let me just read the script to see if it's something I want to do. You know, let me have an, ah like, let me be informed before I make an opinion without any information just based on fear, right? So I got informed and I read the script and I was like, oh my God, I love this play and this is my play. I'm definitely going to do this play. And so I just said, yes, I will audition. And then I started praying, how can I how can i have this experience of preparing for this audition where it's joyful?
00:30:20
Speaker
where i'm not doing it like get it right memorize everything and do the right thing like like i just was like can i have fun yeah you know i just want to have fun and i prepared and i and i was it was fun and i was reminded of being in fourth grade and seeing that play. And then being, you know I went to performing arts high school from fourth to 12th grade. I spent all that time playing. yeah no And I remembered that that space of ah where you can try something and it not work and you can get back into the outside of the circle and, you know it's okay, it's okay. And then go back in and try again, you know where it's not life or death. I made these,
00:31:04
Speaker
i made these you know, decisions about what life meant, and solely based on a fear of of not doing it right. yeah And I hated that. And I just didn't want that anymore. And so I went into this audition and I was so happy. And I had texted a group of of girls that i that I have a ah relationship with. And I just said, you know, I'm about to do something that I haven't done in 10 years.
00:31:35
Speaker
And I'm really scared, but I'm really excited. And I just want to tell you that because if it doesn't go well, I'm going to be okay. And I'm going to be grateful for this experience. And I want you to see that it's not about the result. It's about the process. And if the process is no fun, the result's going to suck.
00:32:03
Speaker
If the process is fun, it doesn't matter what the result is. So the process was so fun. I didn't care about the result. I just cared about like, this writer is a great writer. She wrote some amazing words. I'm going to say them to the best of my ability with all that I have.
00:32:25
Speaker
You know collect it over my life i'm gonna give it all and then i'm gonna leave and go get lunch And after that I got a call and I got the job and I thought wow This is how I want to do this. Yeah from now on and that choice Opened up the next two years of opportunities for me because I because I allowed myself to do something i didn't that I was afraid to do and I and i approached it with joy. ah All these things started happening that I didn't have to fight for, that I didn't have to work for, that I didn't even have to ask for.
00:33:10
Speaker
They just showed up because I had gotten out of the way. right I wasn't blocking the flow with my app my fighting and my opinions and my needs. yeah No, I was out of the way.
00:33:24
Speaker
and Whatever is supposed to be mine. I can't stop it from being mine. Yeah, and if it's not supposed to be mine, it won't be and it's not that every audition since then I've gotten I haven't But every audition that I haven't gotten I've understood. Yeah in a way that I couldn't when I was 20 25 30 35 40 Decades I couldn't understand for decades. I took it very personally You know, I was harmed by the rejection, right? And I can't afford to be harmed by other people's opinions of me. I can't, I don't want it. It's not mine. So, um, yeah, that, that sort of approach, joyful, spiritually connected approach to, um,
00:34:16
Speaker
whatever's supposed to be mine will be, whatever's not supposed to be mine won't be. Acceptance of that has, oh man, has really altered my perception on life yeah and the way I handle life. And i I think, wow, I wish I would have known this at 20, but here's the thing.
00:34:43
Speaker
Maybe somebody did tell me, Lisa, and I was too egotistical or stubborn or fearful to hear it. You hear it when you hear it. You hear it when you're supposed to. And I wasn't supposed to hear it at 20, because you know what? I think if I had gotten famous at 20, not that I'm famous now, but then I would have died out there. I would have died out there. you know It's a so rough space.
00:35:11
Speaker
You know, and spiritually bankrupt is not a way to enter into that kind of chaos. right If you are not grounded in something bigger than yourself, whatever that is, yeah you're going to be kicked around, tossed around, beat up. And if you're like me, stubborn, you're going to keep getting back in the ring bloodied. Yeah.
00:35:39
Speaker
Um without having learned anything but fight harder next time and that's not the answer Yeah, I think there's something you use the word or you said I can't afford To be wounded by this anymore. And I think there's something to that It's like where you reach that point where you realize I can't afford this anymore. Like I I'm running out. i i I just literally, it is a life and death thing to say, I've got to die. This this piece of me, this ego thing has just got to die. like i can't I can't do it anymore. And and maybe, especially for stubborn ah you know fighters, and I resonate with that. you know it' like i I can you know i could just, if I try harder, it'll it'll I'll be able to overcome, I'll do this, whatever, that it just takes that
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah those lessons to get you to a place of really and then being able to really enjoy it when you are able to just say. I really said I just. I'm just gonna do I can enjoy this and I think there's a little bit of permission there that it's okay for me to just enjoy this yeah what I love to do like that's reason enough.
00:36:48
Speaker
because i yeah I think, you know, when I was younger, I was afraid of the quiet. I was afraid of stopping because I just had the wrong idea about life, that I've got this one chance. It's only, we're only afforded one chance and I've got to, you know, like I had it all wrong. yeah There was no ease. There was no joy. There was no peace and in in my life. Perhaps that's a product of youth.
00:37:17
Speaker
You know, I don't I don't know if it has to be, though. Yeah, maybe the only way variance is yeah we Yeah, we do. We all come from different environments, you know, and. um But I do think that is part of being young to fight. yeah And then get over the fight. Right. The blessing of getting over the fight. Yeah. And realizing what did the fight really get me. Right. It got me more fights. It got me more exhausted. It's not like I didn't have successes yeah directly related to those fights. I did. And I wouldn't take those back. but like
00:37:57
Speaker
it's not a um It's not a recipe for long term.
00:38:03
Speaker
it's not where It doesn't teach resilience because it batters you too much to keep you malleable. You're just going to be you know wounded and um those wounds are going to be the thing you present with. yeah and That's harsh. that's That's a harsh relationship with the world. Yeah. Well, how do you kind of protect this wisdom that you've gained? How do you stay grounded in this and not get sucked back into the old stuff, which is always ready to take you back whenever you want? Yeah. um I was told that you can't keep what you don't give away.
Sobriety and Personal Growth
00:38:51
Speaker
So, um
00:38:55
Speaker
I ask what am I supposed to do today to be of service to the day I'm i'm going to have and where can I be useful and coming out of myself
00:39:21
Speaker
is the only way I've learned that I'm going to be unbound from that bondage of self. yeah So I have to work with people. um I have to help people. I have to, and it's not like
00:39:49
Speaker
I'm trying to figure out how to say this. um So, I'm sober. And I've been sober for almost eight years. And part of my sobriety is um what was freely given to me I have to give to other people. um This is the only way that I'm going to keep my peace. If I if i if i go back to self-centered fear, I'm do I might not drink again or do drugs again, but I'm going to be wrapped in self and I'm going to be miserable and and those things are going to look really good to me, you know, eventually. So I, oh, in this community um and when somebody reaches out for help, I have i have to be there.
00:40:48
Speaker
and that
00:40:51
Speaker
reminds me of where I was, of how painful that was, of um how easy it is to go back there and that there is a solution if I'm willing to be rigorously honest and um looking at life through the lens of my where um what role am I playing in this? So, you know, my life became super small because I could point out in every direction how how all these people did me wrong, how the world did me wrong and the cards I was dealt and blah, blah, blah, whatever. And it made my world so, so, so small. When I started turning that finger back towards me, what role am I playing in this?
00:41:50
Speaker
in this ancient wound this thing that actually happened to me that was not good yeah or things that not good how am i but happened 30 years ago how am i still carrying that around and and making it the light through the lens through which i look at the world so I've got to look at my part in it, even if my part you know even if it it just I really want to be like, it's no it's you. You're the jerk. Because it's not like I'm the only jerk and everyone else is fine. It's that I can't un-jerk you.
00:42:31
Speaker
You know to me like me yes, it's not my responsibility and it can't happen. Yeah Yeah, cuz I can't I'm just like other people are not responsible for me. Yeah not make somebody responsible for my happiness Because they're going to let me down because it's not their job And I can't keep blaming somebody for something. They did 35 40 50 years ago um Because it's over And I've got to drop it. I've got to stop carrying it around and I've got to let go of it. And maybe that means forgiveness for for for me. That's that is freedom.
00:43:11
Speaker
It's not always something you can ask of people and I get it for me. It's freedom. yeah So I keep it because I practice every day the principles in all my affairs because I don't want to go back. yeah I don't want to go back to self-seeking, self-centered, fear-based, thousand forms of fears. I want to be free.
00:43:37
Speaker
i want to I want to be free. Does that mean I'm going to be famous? No, it doesn't necessarily mean that. Do I still hold that light? Sure, of course. Do I want to be the oldest cast member ever cast on Saturday Night Live? Yes. You would be great on Saturday Night Live. I think so too. But, you know, like, of course that ah the dreams are, you know, I want my dreams to be alive. Does it mean that I'm going to You know, I should crumble if that doesn't come true. if If I should be ashamed at all, if that doesn't come true. And no, no. Does it mean I shouldn't have the dream? No, I should. It's my attachment to the outcome that harms me. yeah Dream all you want. yeah Do whatever you want. Don't be attached to the outcome. yeah And you might be okay.
00:44:30
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it it reminds me of a framework that I've been kind of working with in my own life, in my own head about, you know, I was always the star of my story, right? I was the star and there was a camera from very very early on just like filming my life. Yes, because it's so interesting. um and And feeling like it was in the hero role, you know, and
Life as Improvisation
00:44:56
Speaker
I've got to make it happen to such a degree that It was just too much. And for me kind of realizing, no, this isn't actually like this is God's story and we're all supporting cast like to be not in the lead role, but in the supporting role of this bigger story than just my life was really, really freeing because it gave me the permission to play.
00:45:20
Speaker
Like, i i I don't have to take on all the pressure of being the star. And everybody is not that I relate to, is not relating to me as a supporting character in my life, in my story. We're all part of a story that is bigger than any one of us. And that, that to me, resonates a lot with the the kinds of things that that you're saying. Just this yeah release of ego to be like, we're just here to to improv Like life is improvisation, right? And you can do it well or not well. um But it it it has a lot to do with your attitude as to how you engage people and the things that come your way. I got this very um incredible opportunity to study with Keith Johnstone. Oh, yeah. And I went to Denmark to to study with him. And, you know,
00:46:14
Speaker
ah He was planting seeds in me that I would not truly grasp or understand until now. yeah But one thing I learned there was that again, he has this exercise called again, that when you start the the work, you make an offer. Nobody responds to that offer. nobody want No audience member wants to see you go, um right get upset.
00:46:45
Speaker
What they want is is permission to laugh at the thing. So you've got to give it to them. So you go again, start all over again. You know, you never get hung up on something that didn't work. You start all over again. You allow the audience to laugh at the at the attempt.
00:47:02
Speaker
That didn't work give them permission laugh at yourself, you know and then go back in there and try some something different Don't get closed off shut down angry at yourself feel the shame and then you know and you know upset yeah audience right nobody wants to see that no audience members going to pay for that or be really comfortable coming back to to watch you what they want to see is your ability to to transform and you know That's it like You know, it's all, we we always go, oh, it's not about crying. It's about trying not to cry. That's what's interesting. We don't want to see you cry. We want to see you try not to cry. That's acting, right? Well, I think, you know, for for life, I do think we're the stars of our show, but I'm not the writer and the director as well. i'm well I can't be, I can't be all of it. So I'm gonna let the higher power write this thing. yeah And I'm going to be the actor who is
00:48:00
Speaker
performing and encountering things that come my way. yeah and If I start directing, I'm screwed. yeah If I start rewriting, ugh, who wants that? Like the actor needs a director and a writer. yeah They can't see the whole picture. So stay in the lane, enjoy the lane, have fun in the in the lane, be the best star of your own show ever, just like you should be doing and that person should be doing and that, you know, like, right you know, do that well, but get out of the way of directing
00:48:32
Speaker
and rewriting, you know, like just be open, just play, just play. Well, so let me, let's, I'm gonna close this conversation by asking you a final question ah from that.
Finding Fulfillment in Storytelling
00:48:49
Speaker
So thinking about the the storyteller or just the, what motivates you? What does it feel like for you when you've created something or you're a part of something that just fits right in the center of everything that just lights you up, that motivates you to create. like Describe what that is, what that looks like, and what that feels like for you. so I um got an opportunity this earlier this year to do a rewrite of a show I created 10 years ago.
00:49:25
Speaker
And this was a show where I interviewed my neighbors, um people in my neighborhood. I um transcribed those interviews. I synthesized those interviews and and built them into a one person show where I played like 30 people. And it was a kind of love letter to my community. Wow. And um The first time I did it, I was in active addiction. And so it was well received, but it was very challenging for me because I lived and died on what people thought. And I was super exhausted by the whole thing. And, you know, I was on the cover of the local paper and I got great reviews and they brought it back the next year and then it ended and I was empty.
00:50:16
Speaker
because of course something can't continue on forever. You can't like, you know, we don't, with the the trajectory is not up, up, up, up, up, up, up forever, you know, we got it. It's the waves, you know, we we we can't stop the waves. We have to learn how to surf, right? But I'm just like, get that a hundred foot wave and ride it forever. right So I got the opportunity to to do this show again and rewrite it, do a whole rewrite sober. And this experience,
00:50:45
Speaker
Here's what I can say about what it feels like to to do that. It feels like this.
00:50:58
Speaker
I don't want to use the word nothing, but it it feels right. I didn't care what anyone thought. I interviewed all those people out of a love and an attempt to listen and to turn back towards the community what I heard, to give this, this the stories away, to two offer them and to present them without my attachment to what it meant for me.
00:51:32
Speaker
I did 42 shows in like six weeks, five weeks. And I was so thankful the whole time. And i I didn't feel low and I didn't feel high. I felt right. And I think that's what that feels like to me when when I'm just kinda in the middle and I'm not better or worse. I'm just ah um just the vehicle in that moment for something bigger than me. And given,
00:52:28
Speaker
oh, and this is what I was gonna say before. I mustook my abilities when I was younger for things that I did. And now I can see that that this has nothing to do with this with me. that That every one of us was is given something to offer to the world as our own. And when we can touch that We are not in need of attention. We are not in need of accolades. We are not in need of more money. We have everything we need. We are just doing what's ours to to do. And it feels right.
00:53:18
Speaker
I didn't long for anything. I didn't want for anything. Everything worked out. I wasn't complaining about anything. That's not true. I might've been like, where's the audience? Damn it. You know, because theaters are having trouble getting people back into seats, you know? um My ego is still involved in my life. I don't want to like, feel like, you know, tell the story that I'm egoless. I'm certainly not. It's the battle of my life every day. But when I am plugged in to a greater source,
00:53:55
Speaker
I don't have to run on fumes and I have, I'm given all I need and I can feel protected and safe and have faith that everything that transpires is what's supposed to transpire. And like it doesn't feel like winning anything or losing anything. It just feels like wow.
00:54:21
Speaker
wow You're giving me chills and tears and all that other good stuff. It's so good. Thank you, Tammy, for talking. I just...
00:54:33
Speaker
you You are a storyteller. You really are a storyteller. I feel like I've just had wonderful stories told to me, but you have so much wisdom that you've gained from the experiences that you have. And, um, I just, I know that audiences are really grateful for your work and I'm really grateful that you're out there doing what you're doing. And this has just been really a wonderful conversation and and I know that it will be meaningful um to our listeners as well. So thank you so much.
00:55:00
Speaker
Well, thank you for for making this platform and for reaching out to me. It's been 30 years. thanks How strange to not talk to someone for 30 years, but then reconnect and and go, oh, right.
00:55:16
Speaker
Yeah. We shared this thing and that lasts and that makes us connected forever. Yeah. You know, and what a beautiful thing. It is beautiful for you to offer this to to me. So thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you. ah This has been a great conversation and I just thank you. I'm looking forward to sharing it. I appreciate you. Thanks.
00:55:58
Speaker
Thanks for listening.
Next Archetype Preview: The Maker
00:56:00
Speaker
Join us next time when we explore the Maker archetype. Thanks for listening to Be Make Do, a Soul Makers podcast. All links and resources are located in our show notes. Want to know your artist archetype? Take the quiz at soulmakers dot.org backslash quiz.