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Artist Archetypes with Corey Frey
234 Plays1 month ago
"Artists have the possibility of teaching us about what the kingdom of God is like."
In this episode of the Be. Make. Do. podcast, Lisa talks with Corey Frey, a visual artist, writer and community builder about the importance of curiosity and process over product.
Join us for our last interview in the Artist Archetypes series on artist motivations. The Maker, The Mystic, The Soul Healer, The Imaginative Visionary, The Prophetic Critic or the Storyteller? What's your archetype? Take the quiz here!
Come visit us this upcoming weekend as we are joining and attending The Breath and The Clay 2025, March 21st- March 23rd. Take Artist Spiritual Archetype quiz in person!
https://www.thebreathandtheclay.com/
Connect with Corey Frey
www.coreysfrey.com
www.thewellcollab.com
www.substack.com/@coreyfrey
Instagram: @coreysfrey
Instagram: @the_well_collaborative
Substack: @coreyfrey
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Facebook: @bemakedopodcast
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Subscribe and follow Be.Make.Do. wherever you get your podcasts.
Corey Frey Bio:
Corey Frey is a multi-disciplinary artist, poet and art educator living in Maryland. In addition to his personal creative practice, Corey is the Exhibitions Manager at the Delaplaine Arts Center in Frederick Maryland and is one of the leaders in the Breath and the Clay Creative Arts Conference and the Makers and Mystic Creative Collective. He and his wife Christy founded The Well Collaborative, a community in Maryland that values creativity, curiosity and conversations about art, humanity, faith and culture.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, welcome to the Be Make Do Soulmakers podcast, where we explore art making and creativity from a place of deeper calling and encourage you to become who you are created to be, make what you are created to make and do what you are created to do.
Success of Artist Archetypes Series
00:00:29
Speaker
We are nearing the end of our series on the artist archetypes, and it has been amazing. it sure has. I mean, seriously, from all the conversations, all the new people we've got to meet, ah the quiz results, all the episodes, it's been amazing.
00:00:45
Speaker
Well, I'll just say right now, Lisa, it's been my favorite series thus far. Has it? Absolutely. and Well, I think it has been mine too, in a way, just because it's been so interactive.
00:00:56
Speaker
we've We've gotten so many emails and messages just saying how helpful the tool's been and and mainly how it has helped people get content. clarity on what they really want and why maybe they haven't fit into a category that they thought they should fit into ah before. So it's been really, really cool to just be able to see how this is actually practical for people and helping people to get unstuck and free, which is exactly what we're after, right? So it's been really great. And Here's what I've been
Upcoming Live Conversation Announcement
00:01:28
Speaker
thinking. I think it would be great for us to have a conversation with our listeners and hear your feedback and stories and find out your questions and just have a chance to connect.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yes. So guess what we're going to do? What are we going to do We're going to hold a live online conversation Thursday, April 17th at 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.
00:01:50
Speaker
And we want you to join us. So send us a message to get the link or sign up for our email list at soulmakers.org and get all the info. But we're not done yet.
Deep Dive into Artist Archetypes
00:02:01
Speaker
Today, we are continuing our conversation about motivation, success, and fulfillment by exploring the artist's archetypes. The maker, the mystic, the imaginative visionary, the storyteller, the soul healer, and the prophetic critic.
00:02:16
Speaker
And you can take our quiz. It's not too late to find out your archetype at soulmakers.org slash quiz. And throughout the series, we've been fortunate to talk with creatives about how their unique motivations help them overcome challenges and create a fulfilling life in the arts.
Introducing Guest Corey Frey
00:02:33
Speaker
So in this episode, we're going to be speaking with Corey Frey, a multidisciplinary artist, poet, and art educator living in Maryland. In addition to his personal creative practice, Corey is the exhibitions manager at the Della Plain Arts Center in Frederick, Maryland.
00:02:49
Speaker
and is one of the leaders in the Breath in the Clay Creative Arts Conference, which, by the way, be Make Do will be attending next week. So hopefully we'll get to see you there. Any of the listeners who are going to be at that conference, please stop by our table and say hello.
00:03:04
Speaker
And of course, Corey is also part of the Makers and Mystic Creative Collective. He and his wife, Christy, founded the Well Collaborative, a community in Maryland that values creativity, curiosity, and conversations about art, humanity, faith, and culture.
00:03:20
Speaker
All right, let's do it.
00:03:32
Speaker
Well, hey, welcome, Corey. Thanks for being on the Be Make Do podcast. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate being
Corey's Creative Community Journey
00:03:38
Speaker
here. So, well, let's get let's just kick it right on off. Let's get started by talking a little bit about you, Corey.
00:03:44
Speaker
um i became ah aware of you and the well in Maryland many years ago, actually. A writer friend of of mine told me about you all and It was kind of that weird thing of like, it's sort of close enough that we could probably connect, but not right quite close enough. And we have an artist community and they have an artist community. Is this competition or is this, you know, what you know all those things that you think about.
00:04:09
Speaker
And now I'm i'm ah like all about collaboration and how do we all work together and and that kind of stuff. But getting your emails and seeing what you guys do is really, really intriguing. So you are a visual artist, you're a writer, a poet ah curator.
Balancing Art and Life
00:04:24
Speaker
a convener, all things. what what Tell us about you, Corey. Oh, goodness. Yeah. I feel like you know when this question comes up, it's like, what but what do I even talk about? I feel like my hands are in a bunch of different things. And so you know i'm ah I'm a husband and a father is is where I like to start talking about things because – um Well, because I live like a ah real life outside of you know all the other things that I'm involved in and finding the the right kinds of negotiations between all these different spheres seems really right.
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah. So I like to kind of start with that. um um We've got two kids. I've got a son named Arthur. who's three. My daughter Finley just turned 10.
00:05:13
Speaker
And ah yeah, we live in Frederick, Maryland. i so i'm I'm a visual artist. um i keep a I keep a painting discipline. um But honestly, ah and and you know I exhibit work in various places. So i've I've had a couple shows in the last couple of years. i have one coming up.
00:05:33
Speaker
and And so that that feels like an essential part of ah what I'm stewarding right now. And um writing has become like really important to me over the last couple of years. Yeah.
00:05:45
Speaker
um The poetry in particular has been this thing that ah reading has always been really important. Books are really important to me, but poetry has become um this developed relationship that fits like really wonderfully into, into the busyness of my life right now in that, you know, the format shorter, but also, poems are interesting.
00:06:11
Speaker
poems are poems go to another level if you take the time to memorize them. And if you, and if you do that, then you can carry it with you throughout the day. And it doesn't matter whether or not you have, you know, two hours to sit
Rediscovering Passion for Art
00:06:24
Speaker
down with a book. And so, um so, you know, a discipline with poetry, more like a relationship with poetry has been really important for me.
00:06:34
Speaker
And, um and I've really been exploring what that means for me as a writer as well. So I've been writing a lot. My, my Well, here comes the rest of the list. So my full-time gig is I work as the exhibitions manager of an art center here in Frederick where we live. It's been around for a long time. actually took a class there when I was a young boy.
00:06:58
Speaker
oh wow. Yeah. And we have ah we've got five on-site gallery spaces that I'm in charge of. We work with local regional um ah local and regional artists, some national, and the very, very occasional international exhibition, lot of group shows and things.
00:07:16
Speaker
So I'm in charge of that. And then what you already mentioned, the well ah the Well Collaborative is something that we – I lived in Florida for about 12 years. ah My wife and I got married and had our daughter while we were in Florida, and we ended up kind of uprooting from there um for a lot of reasons. But one of the biggest reasons was to start ah what we've come to call a creative community.
00:07:42
Speaker
it's as... You know, the elevator pitch doesn't work very well with with it because it is as messy as a community can kind of be as as any organic thing.
00:07:52
Speaker
And so um we we try to get together and encourage one another to make things. And ah we facilitate that in different ways. And um we hold events with other places as the well and, you know, some some things like that.
00:08:10
Speaker
um And then probably the last thing worth mentioning, you know, is that I am one of the leaders of the Breath of the Clay, which is a conference um that's coming up in March in North Carolina. And I help out with the um with the art exhibition that's a part of that and, um you know, do do various jobs with that. So, goodness, that's a long laundry list of things.
00:08:35
Speaker
but and It's a very full full life, right? It's a very full list. Yeah. And I totally relate to what you're saying with the well and the shape of that community because the elevator pitch. i I remember at one point, i kind of got a little anxiety going into social situations where somebody might ask me, well, what what do you do? Because I think, oh, gosh.
00:08:57
Speaker
How do I explain it? you know Who are you and what would your frame of reference be around this? and um But it is interesting too. like I remember having a conversation with somebody over the years who would constantly yeah you know would say, how is how are things going? And I would tell them about all the all the people that we connected with and all the artists, that you know the conversations we were having and what was going on.
00:09:21
Speaker
And he he would kind of say, well, yeah, that sounds great. I knew you'd do the art thing, good but but how's the church going? you know how's it where's Where's the church part of it? but And it's just so interesting, I think, when you get a group of artists together who are who are Christians or who are spiritually minded. I mean, most artists are spiritually minded.
00:09:42
Speaker
like It just flows into so many different spheres, and it just does look different.
Creative Community Dynamics
00:09:49
Speaker
And it's um ah having the freedom and having people who can encourage you to be organic in that way is really, really important and life-giving.
00:10:00
Speaker
Yeah, and you know, it doesn't help when your community engagements are interdisciplinary, you know, that right that devaricates and branches off in all kinds of different ways. in and um and And so, and and you know, the other thing about it is that ah And I'm sure we could dive into this more, but, um you know, real communities are organic things.
00:10:27
Speaker
And Wendell Berry, if you know the the poet Wendell Berry, he's helped me really think about how... anything that's Anything that has organic life is constantly in cycles of growth and decay.
00:10:39
Speaker
And so we're all kind of growing and decaying in some areas of our lives. And that's it's also true for organizations if you're committed to it being organic and having that kind of – ah generative life.
00:10:53
Speaker
And so like just just to be totally candid with you, we've been in a we've been in sort of a fluctuation of more of the necessity of decay with the well recently.
00:11:05
Speaker
We haven't been meeting as often as we have before, and there are a lot of reasons for that. But it's been very helpful for me to think think within that framework um because because then it doesn't it doesn't belittle what we've done and what we're continuing to do.
00:11:23
Speaker
And it's not as discouraging um because, ah you know, there's another term, agricultural term, furrowing the soil where farmers will, they'll till the ground um Without planting. So so they they don't plant in order to reap, but there's like this working of the soil in order for the stirring of nutrients.
00:11:46
Speaker
yeah And um so there's not an there's not an explicit expectation of your ah of your current work. four for an outcome of growth, you have to be thinking long haul with it.
00:12:01
Speaker
And um that's been very helpful for me to think of when it comes to the well. and And when it comes to these things like the elevator pitch, I think it's really important to be succinct and try to figure those out.
00:12:12
Speaker
But um I also think that we can succumb to the pressure of... of um ah kind of belittling the robustness and the multi, the, the multi-dimensional factors of what we do.
00:12:27
Speaker
If, if we cram them into, um into language that doesn't suit them or doesn't do them justice, really doesn't honor them in some ways.
00:12:38
Speaker
And so that, that's a real challenge. I mean, i think this, this whole thing flows very well, even into the topic of conversation, but um,
00:12:50
Speaker
I don't know. What do you think about that? Does that seem right to you? Oh my gosh, it seems so
Embracing Complexity in Art
00:12:55
Speaker
– first of all, convergence is in a similar space where we've we've gotten it. So I love that imagery of intentional kind of pruning and and death in order for for new life to happen and that furrowing.
00:13:09
Speaker
yeah And I also think it's such helpful language as artists and maybe specifically Christians in the arts to understand – I think that there's a freedom that comes with understanding that what we create has eternal value.
00:13:30
Speaker
Meaning, you know if it's good and true and beautiful, if it's something that's you know for the kingdom, that it lasts perpetually. Yeah. you know, even beyond the reality that, you know, something you write now, somebody a hundred years from now might pick up and it changes their life.
00:13:47
Speaker
But there is this pressure always, I think, for ah desire to have an impact, you know, whether it's to affect somebody or to get monetary success or recognition, it's so easy. and And I've certainly experienced that with convergence and community,
00:14:04
Speaker
building. you know If you don't have an X number of butts in seats, how can you call yourself successful when it's like, well, the whole purpose of this is to make a really big mess and fail a lot yeah and make a lot of mistakes so that other people don't have to. you know They can learn from ours and we grow.
00:14:21
Speaker
So i I think that's part of why it's so awesome to be in community and conversation with other artists like this because we can encourage each other that, no, that's actually what we do. you know It's not a problem.
00:14:34
Speaker
ah Right. And, you know, that that's the point of having something like ah the mentioning of the great cloud of witnesses. That we have people like Jeremiah who spent the entirety of their life with a fire in his bones.
00:14:49
Speaker
And, and, All of his work, all of all of that fire being expended yeah does not result in success in modern day terms.
00:15:03
Speaker
It actually results in the opposite. yeah And um Jesus was no different. you know like Jesus jesus was kind of like well, you're really mad because I said you to eat my flesh and drink my blood and you're going to leave me, but I'm actually not going to explain myself and follow I'm going to allow the misunderstanding to kind of perpetuate itself.
00:15:27
Speaker
And my job isn't necessarily to be clearly understood. i think we have a, we have, i um I, think a little bit that ah there's, there's a great sort of,
00:15:42
Speaker
ah a renewal of a recognition um of some dormant things in humanity. And, and I think it's really important that there are all these movements towards kind of the, the connections between art and faith because artists have the possibility to teach us again about how um immediate success isn't the goal and um and how failure and play is really important and that doesn't look saleable sometimes.
00:16:15
Speaker
and And so I think that um there's there's sort of this ah reflexive move from what we've been taught in a lot of ways is, all right, well, success means that you you you clearly define what Jesus wants for your life.
00:16:33
Speaker
And then in in you know, I want to be careful here because I'm not trying to besmirch any of the traditional things that we do, but the difficulty is, is that we've been told that the gospel is good news in modern terms of what we mean by news and not in the way that it was meant in ancient ways. And so we think that, um,
00:16:55
Speaker
we We think that clear communication is a necessity and we think that like very specific responses are success in our circles. and And that's not necessarily the case.
00:17:07
Speaker
um And so I think the artist has a lot to teach us about what what that can look like and how to make things. My understanding is that art tends to um reintroduce complexity into things that have been overly simplified. That's a good definition.
00:17:25
Speaker
and And I think that that there's some work to be done in that direction.
Curiosity in Creativity
00:17:29
Speaker
And um it makes me really excited for for things like what you're doing and and all the things that are springing up in different places. um I think it is an exciting time. but No, that's okay. No, I think it is a really exciting time. And I think there seems to be ah a more and more openness space.
00:17:47
Speaker
to i think there's an explosion and in emphasis on on ah studies of the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible, which then leads to the importance of storytelling and understanding story and understanding poetry and and these kinds of things that then it's like, okay, what?
00:18:05
Speaker
Well, great. Let us in there. you know we can We can help to to explore and like and kind of explode things from the inside so that we can learn them on a deeper level than just whatever that clear answer is, like you're saying.
00:18:21
Speaker
Yeah. Well, okay. So Corey, you've talked about, there's a lot of different pieces to your life and to your creative life. I, you know, just a couple of minutes reading your work or looking at your artwork. I, you can tell that you take it very seriously. You're very good at it, very thoughtful about it.
00:18:42
Speaker
You're very thoughtful about how you've kind of orchestrated your life and the different pieces of it. is that Is that just the way that you think? Is that the way you've always been? where did Where did you start out with this? Did you think you were going to go be an artist? Did you think you were going to go be a painter, a banker? what was what What was the path for you?
00:19:00
Speaker
Yeah, i um i you know i went to school first um to a small ministry school ah in order to be pastor. um And it was a two-year school that I went to, it was...
00:19:16
Speaker
you It taught me a lot of things, but when I left, what i realized was um I went through a season that I really struggled, and I like graduated from there. i moved back in with my parents. I was already an older student to begin with and um but but really struggled with where I was at, like really kind of a dark place. Yeah.
00:19:40
Speaker
ah and not necessarily dark in a bad way. Like I'm actually very grateful for the difficulty of it. But um when i i was making these commitments to wake up early in the morning, and I remember ah one morning,
00:19:57
Speaker
feeling the sense of, um I don't like to say that I heard a whisper, but I felt a whisper of, Corey, don't you remember how as a kid you loved drawing?
00:20:08
Speaker
And i would I would spend hours drawing as a child. And i um it's not that I directly like – put that aside for the sake of other things, but very indirectly that kind of worked itself out of my life um for the sake of, you know, for, for a lot of other reasons.
00:20:28
Speaker
Yeah. And, um but that, that question ah feeling the whisper of that was enough for me to pick up a pencil and to start drawing a little bit. And then, um and And that was enough for me to start thinking about creativity in a more serious way and to pick up but pick up a paintbrush and start painting.
00:20:52
Speaker
um And I remember sitting on my parents' back porch and I would paint with acrylic paint. And then i actually took an oil painting class at the place that I work now. And um and in ah in a very roundabout way, I ended up going back to school um for art. um i went to i started off very ah i started off at a state college.
00:21:16
Speaker
And was a great school. I moved back to Florida. goodness it's It's always hard to about. It's so circuitous. But i I moved back to Florida. I went to a state school that had a great art program and just chipped away at classes here and there.
00:21:32
Speaker
um And then I ended up you know finishing there and and decided you know I'm going to go to undergrad for studio art. And I kind of dove into there and I had the benefit of being an older student and having worked a bunch of jobs that didn't like. So I knew, and i knew that I was throwing myself into this headlong and I knew too that, um,
00:21:58
Speaker
yeah I knew too that, um, I had already given i'd already given myself toward toward my passions, meaning like i was passionate about going to ministry school. it was it It wasn't a mistake that I went there. I didn't like miss the mark or something.
00:22:17
Speaker
i was passionate about it. and being And the word passion means something you're willing to suffer for. And so so i I don't know where it comes from, but I was... But I have that sense in me that I want to be passionate about things. And I really want to, um I don't know, I want to live life to its fullest. I want to make meaning. I want meaning to be a
Balancing Intuition and Structure
00:22:40
Speaker
part of my life. And so um anyway, I went back to school.
00:22:45
Speaker
threw myself into that and um started exhibiting some places and ah making connections with other artists and working in some gallery settings and stuff like that. So that that was kind of the onset of my current the current progression Yeah, well, so what what would you say, um let's talk about motivation for a minute and passion. Like, what is it that, have you have you spent much time thinking about that? Like, why why you're drawn to the arts? Why you keep doing what you do? And maybe, also I'm thinking about, like, what keeps that passion alive for you? How do you maintain passion over time?
00:23:28
Speaker
you know, I'd probably say that I'm most... I'm most passionate about curiosity. Um, I think maybe that's right. Um, and, uh,
00:23:44
Speaker
The other thing that comes to mind, Lisa, is that, you know, artists have, whenever artists have talked about what they do creatively, they've they've kind of always utilized relate terms that center around relationship.
00:24:00
Speaker
And so they've used words like the muse or inspiration. and and So inspiration is an interesting one because the word spirits in it. and And if you take seriously things like, you know, the Greek for spirit is pneuma, which means breath or wind. And so built into this idea of breath is reciprocity.
00:24:22
Speaker
It is the give and take of breath. And I mean, the origin story that we have as Christians is that we're breathed into and we breathe out again. and um and the thing about relationship, and and I think I'm answering your question here.
00:24:41
Speaker
The thing about relationship is that it's always reciprocal. There's always a give and a take on both sides. of Otherwise, it's transactional and not a real relationship. it's It has to be reciprocal in order to be an intimate relationship.
00:24:54
Speaker
and um and And that has me very interested in, and I think curiosity ties into this, that has me very interested in i wouldn't know what that means about what I'm passionate about other than i'm I'm very passionate about having a relationship with God. That's always been really important to me.
00:25:18
Speaker
And what I've come to realize is that, like ah what I think I've come to realize is that if if reciprocity is a necessity for relationship, then
00:25:33
Speaker
then we inspiration is important because we receive it, but but if it's reciprocal, then we also have to give it. And this idea that God is actually inspired by us or that we can fill God with wonder feels really important in that reciprocal nature of relationship.
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah. and And I'm very passionate about that. I'm very – and curiosity plays a part in that. um The thing about relationship too is that – and I'm noticing this with my kids – is that the parameters the parameters of being an individual aren't very clearly defined. Like – We need one another to grow. There's like a, there's a philosopher, um physicist named Karen Brad says, calls it intra-action rather than just interaction. That there's, that as you, and we're recognizing this as we, um,
00:26:37
Speaker
grow in our understanding of consciousness that when you pay attention to something, the world changes. so there's this sense that like who we are, isn't very clearly defined.
00:26:48
Speaker
um it But it, but it bounces off of, and and when you notice things in other people and the way that other people act actually helps define who you are.
00:26:58
Speaker
So again, this reciprocity thing. And the reason why I bring that up is because um I feel like all of my creative work is about exploration is, is all about um not necessarily the end goal of, of making a product, but of investigation that, that fuel for curiosity.
00:27:18
Speaker
um i don't know. Does that, does that answer the question a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that that curiosity word you use that quite a few times, I think that's yeah that's a big part. And I think that makes sense. A lot of a lot of creatives, a lot of artists are, i think that ability to be curious is so important to find the new discovery and also to keep going when it gets tough, when circumstances aren't right or interpersonal circumstances aren't right.
00:27:53
Speaker
um I mean, how do you keep that curiosity alive? Or is that even a problem for you? Like, has have you ever struggled with, you know, keeping that curiosity going? And what do you do to like feed that for yourself?
00:28:08
Speaker
What tends to, but tends to um you know, throw... um to try to put out the fire of that for me. What tends to do that most quickly is allowing the wrong kinds of value systems to guide me.
00:28:23
Speaker
okay And so, you know, like we're all sort of swimming in the culture of the industrial revolution, the enlightenment and the industrial revolution, its value system was all based on numbers. Right.
00:28:37
Speaker
And the enlightenment value systems, values, or the enlightenment, the enlightenment's value system was is based off of understanding. It's based off of like, how much can I apprehend?
00:28:50
Speaker
And, and I, and um I've felt that pressure and continue to feel it all the time. But what I've really tried to do is to, to kind of develop an ecosystem that honors, that honors, um,
00:29:06
Speaker
Ignorance might not be the right word, but it kind of is. It's that yeah Paul says that we see through a glass darkly. And in saying that, he's simultaneously saying that we know things.
00:29:17
Speaker
We know that we see through a glass darkly. But he's also saying that we don't know things. And so an apprehension of knowledge ah often will kind of… um put out the fire of curiosity for me if that's a goal.
00:29:31
Speaker
And then, um you know, industrial sort of value system constraints will also put, will also damper that fire some. um And so, yeah, developing in developing a framework where I,
00:29:49
Speaker
kind of fall back into intuition and even into emotion and allowing those an intuitive intelligence and an emotional intelligence to kind of rule in certain times of day. So like I construct very specific ways i I try to keep a regimented routine where I carve out times of my day.
00:30:10
Speaker
oh interesting. That this time of day will be set aside to honor intuitive intelligence and emotional intelligence rather than these other systems of value. – and um And in developing in developing that, I can see how it benefits the rest of my life. It also causes some problems. you know like if i I can't exactly go into my job, my day-to-day job that's mostly admin and be like, well, i'm just going to be led by my emotional intelligence. I'll you know i'll be kicked out of there pretty quick.
00:30:43
Speaker
um So anyway, i think we need to figure out ways that we can honor those sorts of things. Yeah. and um And i I do feel like I've...
00:30:55
Speaker
and My regimen isn't very strict other than it's like ah during this time, we'll be dedicated to that. And it's kind of like up in the air what happens in that time. You know what I mean?
00:31:06
Speaker
I love that. I really am a big fan of kind of creating frameworks of time, of environment, of people, to, you know, to do that part intentionally so that you're not constantly making the decision as you go along about what kind of person you want to be, you know, like just constantly being shaped almost by force. But I get to choose what that structure is, but then it's going to help me, help shape me into who I really need and want to be.
00:31:36
Speaker
yeah what ah Tell me tell me a little bit, would you share a little bit about what that that structure looks like for you? what How you've worked that out for yourself? Set apart space is important. um A dedication to tools is actually really important. um You know, like, I think it's really important to have things.
00:31:57
Speaker
if If you're a maker, like if you're making things with your hands, I think it's really important to have tools that feel good in your hands. Like as as practical a thing that is.
00:32:10
Speaker
So I... um I've a friend of mine gave me a pen a couple of weeks ago, a couple of months ago, actually. uh, he's an incredible pen maker. John Tello is his name.
00:32:22
Speaker
He makes fountain pens. He sent me this pen, this fountain pen. And, um, I've been taking time to write with it. Um, and I've, I've kind of, ah I'm trying more and more to abandon writing on my laptop or a digital space, but right with the hand.
00:32:40
Speaker
And, um, And so I'm setting aside this intentional time. was just telling somebody about this the other day. The fountain pen is problematic in so many ways because- It's messy.
00:32:54
Speaker
It's messy. I've had an issue this past week where I've been writing with it for a long time and the ink in the nib is starting to dry. Mm-hmm. And so, it's not writing as well as it should. So, it takes more care. Right. And I actually have been thinking about how important that is in that… um In that there's, I'm not dedicating myself to an outcome and to an efficiency that results in an
Tools and Rhythms in Creativity
00:33:23
Speaker
outcome.
00:33:23
Speaker
I'm dedicating myself to it to a tool and to like a medium and to language and to paper and a pen or to or to a brush and oil paint.
00:33:35
Speaker
I'm dedicating myself to those things and my interest and curiosity is kind of tied up in those. Yeah. And And that means that it's not always efficient. It actually means that it causes more problems than it then it is so efficient sometimes.
00:33:52
Speaker
And so having a space and time carved out for that kind of that kind of like actual work right has felt really important. So you know I carve out time, i carve out space, and um and then usually I'll sit down um
00:34:14
Speaker
I'll sit down and I'll try to figure out some kind of way. And it's always a little bit different of how to, how to figure out what's going on in the depths of me. And, and it's been a commitment to, to deep places within myself.
00:34:29
Speaker
Um, figure out what's going on there and then respond to that. Like, does that mean that I paint right now or does that mean that I write? Does that mean that I, I was sculpting a little bit with clay the other morning, which I hadn't done in a while, but it felt right.
00:34:46
Speaker
so So it's stuff like that. you know Yeah. yeah I love that kind of creating those those rhythms and then you have to trust them. Because I i just recently took part one of a sabbatical. I took a little bit of time off the in January and i had set it aside for rest.
00:35:08
Speaker
But i as I kind of got started with that, I realized i you know what I mean by rest is not that I need to take a lot of naps you know or or I just need to watch TV. or or It's not that kind of rest. It's something a lot deeper than that. And then it kind of came to...
00:35:23
Speaker
realizing that I needed to create structures that allow me to address the deeper things in my life, kind of like that pen. you know i need to address the that pen part of me that needs you know the dried stuff needs to be cleaned out and then to make a regular structure so that I am doing that on a regular basis. And it can feel so unproductive.
00:35:48
Speaker
to have that time. And even i i find even when it feels good, and I know there are a lot of people who, who do this with their studio, you know, they're like, I want, i want to go to the studio, but then I kind of feel guilty because I should be doing all these other things. And it's almost like if it feels good and it feels right, then somehow it feels wrong because it's not productive.
00:36:07
Speaker
Again, that industrialist mindset It's so interesting. But yeah, to keep that as a discipline and realizing how much those external and just ritual actions actually do transform what you create, who you are, they shape you.
00:36:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. and um And you mentioned the word rhythm. also am a drummer. play drums a bit here and there. And the thing that strikes me about rhythm, I always – um people have always said like, you don't need balance. You need rhythm. And I think that's right. But also we need a real understanding of what rhythm is. And rhythm is like, rhythm is as nuanced and as complex as what I was talking about with organic life, you know, like,
00:36:57
Speaker
Rhythm means that there are there are syncopated rhythms that don't that don't match up you know measure by measure. They don't necessarily match up.
00:37:08
Speaker
Right. And the other thing is that um silence is a real important part of rhythm as well. And so I was i was very um i was very lucky to have a fantastic painting instructor named John Markowitz in my undergrad.
00:37:24
Speaker
And we talked a lot about how like – a great deal of painting is done without a, without a brush in your hand. Like a great deal of painting is spending time looking at things, paying very close attention.
00:37:38
Speaker
Um, we think you know We think that we know how to see, but being a painter or drawing actually really teaches you, one, how to see and also how much you don't really know how to see. Yeah.
00:37:54
Speaker
And we need to be reminded of that sort of thing. But the whole rhythm back to the rhythm thing is like – I think people get very discouraged. And again, this is back to the industrial thing. It's like, well, was this time productive? Did I make anything? Yeah. And we've got to have some grace with ourselves as far as making things goes in that um sometimes like you really need to spend some time looking.
00:38:18
Speaker
um I had an exhibition recently. uh, at a college last January. And, and I was, I made for two years, I was making the work for it.
00:38:31
Speaker
And part of my, part of my morning routine, i found that I was, um, I was waking up really early in the morning in order to make the work because I had to go to work that day and I have kids and things. And so i was waking up really early and um sometimes I'd fall asleep in my studio, like looking at the paintings that I was working on.
00:38:56
Speaker
And I actually really came to value those times and they informed, they actually informed a lot of the work and that they freed up they freed up the possibility of me recognizing the importance of what it means to dream and to be kind of in that liminal space between, between dreaming and awake. And, um and, you know, I, sometimes I'd go away really frustrated with myself. Like I should have been, i should have been like productive. Right. Yeah.
00:39:30
Speaker
And, but i I really was productive. i was, I was, um I was really grabbing onto something that I didn't know that I needed to grab onto. And so, yeah, the whole thing about rhythms, I think is, is worth exploring and thinking about more and letting it be as complicated as it needs to be giving ourself grace in the midst of yeah of doing that kind of stuff, you know?
00:39:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. i just think I love the way you're thinking about these things and the freedom that's in there. And then it makes me think about how important those kinds of of lessons or or understandings of of life and what it takes to really appreciate what life is really all about and It is so, you know, the the word countercultural is is overused, but it it is extremely countercultural to live, and I don't just mean as a creator or as a creative person, but as an artist.
00:40:35
Speaker
I think there is a difference there, you know, as ah as a person who dedicates significant time and energy and focus to um developing craft and then to be able to to do the deeper things that are necessary to, like you said, to learn how to really see and then to give that in an you know expressive format in some way to other people to hopefully invite them also into an experience that's deeper than just the other every day. And I feel like that's such a...
00:41:07
Speaker
I feel so privileged to be around those kinds of people and to sometimes be one of those people. it just seems It does seem like a calling to me, and and I feel like there's something about it, maybe especially right in our modern, postmodern age coming out of this industrial and and enlightenment that's so necessary and important. And I just really, i I'm beginning to really believe that God is is is is inviting artists to be a little bit bolder and that all these things that seem unproductive and seem, you know, whatever whatever labels people might might give it or give us to
00:41:55
Speaker
that that this is what's really, really needed right now. Like learning how to just be silent for a long period of time. Yeah. And heal so much.
00:42:07
Speaker
Right. And, you know, we we tend to, we can tend to sort of superimpose the industrial value system on top of Christianity.
00:42:19
Speaker
you know, and And talk about the necessary production of the kingdom. and like and But if we take, again, back to the cloud of witnesses thing, if you think about the life of Jesus and like most of his life was, 30 years of his life was spent not necessarily doing the work of the ministry, three years, you know. yeah Three. And...
00:42:45
Speaker
And not just that, but he wasn't necessarily like, Jesus wasn't efficient either is the thing is that yeah we've got to come to grips with like, The productivity that we're used to in in our modern world isn't necessarily the productivity of the kingdom. Right.
00:43:04
Speaker
And um that makes it far more complicated. It makes it way more messy.
Finding Everyday Meaning
00:43:09
Speaker
But it it makes us rely on trust. and that And trust always involves risk.
00:43:16
Speaker
Yeah. um And so... Again, i think the artists do artists do have the possibility of teaching us some things about what the kingdom of God is like.
00:43:27
Speaker
Your definition of the word passion keeps going through my mind of something that you're willing to die for. And i certainly have been on ups and downs journey with passion itself because when I was younger, everything was passion. I was just driven and I had such passion, such vision.
00:43:50
Speaker
And then as I got older, kind of that like white knuckling through it and like pushing, pushing, you know, living on on passion, started to kind of give away.
00:44:01
Speaker
and um and just ah you know running a community, there's so so many things that happen and you kind of and hitting burnout a little bit. i've I don't know. I have this ah ongoing questioning relationship with passion of like,
00:44:20
Speaker
I want it back. I want that those same levels back, but I also i feel like there's this at this point in my life, there's a maybe an invitation to developing this curiosity, like a genuine, genuine, genuine curiosity and surrendering kind of some of those things that I think I want or the the results or the the the end thing that I'm going to affect you know that's going to make the difference to find the love and the passion just for the thing, you know just for the discovery. and And that's something I'm having to kind of teach myself to do.
00:44:58
Speaker
yeah No, that's that's great. I mean, was talking to some, was talking at a songwriter's retreat. I don't know what I was doing there because I'm not a songwriter, but was talking to songwriter's retreat a couple of weeks ago.
00:45:10
Speaker
And one of the questions that came up was, do you, and I promise this will get to what you're saying, but it was, do you police your creative intake? Like what, what you're intaking. And it made me think about my kids because, um,
00:45:27
Speaker
And this circles back to what you were saying that before I had kids, I would try to set up everything in my life toward making the most meaning as possible in my day.
00:45:39
Speaker
It was like, i' I'm going to regiment things down to like suck the meaning out of life. But then once I had kids, you know… how I was telling it to them was that my car used to be kind of a sanctuary for listening to music and I would listen to whatever I wanted to. But now that I have kids, I'm listening to like Disney soundtracks and stuff.
00:46:04
Speaker
And, and there's only so much, there's only so much of an enforcement of meaning that I can do in my life. But now I feel like it's, the tables have been turned a little bit to where I'm not trying to enforce meaning or even enforce passion in my life as much as I am trying to, to recognize meaning in, in the mundanity of the world.
00:46:28
Speaker
And that's, that's something that I feel like I am trying to learn day to day. um Because our, you'll like exhaust yourself. You'll totally burn yourself out on just trying to um get meaning out of, like, again, enforce meaning into everything.
00:46:49
Speaker
But if you're just receiving, learning how to pay enough attention to receive meaning, that's a different story. I think there's, um God, I hope there's some some levels of maturity there that I'm learning. We'll see.
00:47:03
Speaker
maybe Maybe it's just with me, you know, being over, going down the other side of the hill of 40 or something like that. but um so i love that as a discipline. I think that's a wonderful discipline. Yeah.
00:47:16
Speaker
No, I think what you're what you're saying about passion is is right on. um Yeah. Well, let me ask you, we're we're talking about art making and creativity and and life and spirituality. And I wonder, do you even think about what you do?
00:47:34
Speaker
Do you think about these things in terms of career at all? A career? do you ever think about your career? Or you just kind of thinking about, okay, how do I craft this life around me?
00:47:46
Speaker
Well, and I know that I've made a decision to work to to work for a living, something that I i love my job. like it It dovetails beautifully with...
00:48:00
Speaker
the artistic and creative life, but it also is, you know, 80 to 90% administrative. And that's not my strong suit. I struggle there. um I'm learning and growing in those areas, but I really struggle there. So, and I've always done jobs that I didn't necessarily like. And again, I i really like my job now, but um I've made the decision to not,
00:48:26
Speaker
to not think to not think in terms of a career for um like visual art or for writing necessarily. I've made that decision and that's not necessarily that is not the decision that other people necessarily need to make.
00:48:43
Speaker
um But that was a conscious decision for you, right? To to say, okay, the way I make money is not going to be the place where I'm putting my the majority of my creative output. Yeah, just don't place that expectation. I don't place the dollar sign expectation on top of it.
00:48:59
Speaker
That is a decision that I've made. and um And it's not just the dollar sign, but it's also um coming to grips with being misunderstood because that's another value system. that's So if the number sign...
00:49:16
Speaker
or the money sign is the value system of the industrial age, then understanding and comprehension is the value system of sort of the enlightenment way of thinking and the scientific revolution that we want to undergird like knowledge.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yeah. And, and the way that I work, I'm very process driven when it comes to writing and when it comes to visual art, um,
00:49:44
Speaker
i'm I'm so interested in the process and in the in in the materials that I don't know what I'm going to end up with. And that means that in order to do that, I can't be thinking of like, this is going to sustain my family um because I'm dedicated to two the investigation ah of that.
00:50:07
Speaker
And um so, yeah, it's a conscious decision that I've made. I, ah Honestly, it's probably it's probably a harder – this is for me personally.
00:50:19
Speaker
It's a harder decision for me so to decide like I'm not working towards being understood than it is for me to say like i'm i'm working I'm not working in order to earn money. I'm happy to – get you know It comes with its struggles, but I'm happy to work in order so I can create whatever I want to.
00:50:40
Speaker
yeah um but the misunderstanding part is is probably harder for me. I love that delineation too, and even putting them on an equal plane, because I i don't think you're alone at all in that, that wanting to creating and wanting to be understood. i I personally relate to that, but I also hear it quite a bit. And I think it comes across sometimes in this... um for there's like this added on top of it from a Christian perspective, wanting to make an impact for God. Yeah, that's right. You know, that somehow it needs to do something for God.
Misunderstanding in Art
00:51:15
Speaker
And if you're not seeing that result, that somehow you're not doing it right, or you're not being faithful, or it's just, you're you're failing.
00:51:24
Speaker
Right. But um I think what you're kind of illuminating for me, another aspect of why that's problematic is that that's a value system that doesn't that's that's being imposed on what we're doing that doesn't fit.
00:51:40
Speaker
It just doesn't fit at all. Yeah, and there's a couple of, as far as the Christian, the specificity, specificity the Christian side of things, you know, like John the Baptist and dan and the prophet Daniel have been really important for me on like the understanding, misunderstanding sort of thing.
00:51:59
Speaker
They've been really important for me on the misunderstanding side of things, especially in the in the Christian world. Goodness, we we don't want to just understand things. We want to make mantras and axioms out of everything.
00:52:14
Speaker
and we And we do it like, God god bless us. like there's There's absolutely nothing wrong with mantras and axioms. but um But they're always...
00:52:27
Speaker
They're necessary, but they're always insufficient. And and they don't they don't necessarily, like, actually um reach into the complexity of what it means to be a human being.
00:52:41
Speaker
Yeah. and And so, if if you're interested in human in being a human being, and God's actually really interested in us being human beings. Yeah. Yeah. And so i i don't think that being fully understood by certain groups of people is yeah is is the right way to live up to things. And um it doesn't necessarily mean that we're not unified as well.
00:53:08
Speaker
Right. um Similarity and unity are not the same thing. and so Yeah, that's an important distinction, yeah especially and in the world that we live in, which has probably always been the case. Right.
00:53:22
Speaker
well Well, let me ask you one more thing around around this. So given given all of these things, how do you think about how you share your work?
00:53:33
Speaker
Like, how do you think about and audience?
Stewardship of Art
00:53:36
Speaker
So stewardship is, the word stewardship is really important. And the word continuity is really important to me because- it's not just about viability and whether or not something has had the right kind of gestational period about whether or not it's viable. It's like, I'm going to make the best work that I can and I'm going to, and in stewarding the work,
00:53:59
Speaker
I'll know, I'll have a sense of what the social parameters around that work is. yeah Again, my dedication to to that craft and like treating it treating these things as wild, they're wild things in in the best sense of the in the best sense of the word.
00:54:17
Speaker
um And they're organic living sort of things that I can um honor myself. I can kind of honor the point of their maturation and like what they need and not necessarily what I ah need or want, but like it's, it's, there's negotiations there.
00:54:37
Speaker
Yeah. It's such, i mean, that's such a wonderful way of looking at it and allowing it to have its own relationship home with an audience and being curious to see that.
00:54:50
Speaker
yeah, And I would imagine too that it gives a certain sense of freedom in the creation of it to not be so focused on what's this going to do, you know what's this going to do for me or for somebody else or for the for the world, but just it's a thing that but is a part you know has been a part of my life. It's an important, the process itself is valuable and important.
00:55:13
Speaker
And then once that's all done, Then there's the question of where do you want to go from here? you know I love that. and It can get a little – it can sound a little more romantic than it actually is. Like in the studio, you better believe leave you better believe that when I have a brush in hand and I'm making marks on a canvas and I'm trying to follow my intuition, that in the back of my head there is that thing that's saying like, what's the – What's the response to this going to be?
00:55:42
Speaker
Like those things exist and they're real and they're actually really important. it's not that i It's not that I completely push them aside, but it's not necessarily the time for them. I'm actually happy that that exists in my life, that there is this sense of critique because critique is a part of stewardship. Like I'm interested in making good work. Right. I just am. And so um so I think we know we need to figure out how to,
00:56:10
Speaker
Maybe compartmentalize isn't the right word, but to ah figure out what voices need to be in the conversation at the right time. At the right time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to ask you one last question to kind of like wrap this up. And and it's more of a feeling question, I guess.
00:56:29
Speaker
But what is it what does it feel like for you when you have created something or you've been a part of something that just – kind of feels like it fits right in the center of everything that motivates you and excites you and has that passion and curiosity.
00:56:44
Speaker
like Describe what that feels like for me.
00:56:49
Speaker
that's ah That's a really, it's a great question, it's also very challenging because I'm not one for some people talk about finding your voice and like when they say that they kind of mean, sometimes they mean like you find your voice and then, you know, you utilize that voice or whatever.
Self-Revelation Through Art
00:57:11
Speaker
i think that we're always trying to find our voice. i think that I have no idea who I am. right and and so to say that I found my voice seems ridiculous.
00:57:22
Speaker
And so, and I'm saying that to say like, ah another part of that, like finding the right words in the right moment feels like I've revealed a little bit more of myself to myself and to into God. Actually. um There's a verse.
00:57:41
Speaker
I'm totally rabbit trailing here. There's a verse, you know, that said where Jesus says, um, Jesus says, ah you'll say that we cast out demons, we healed the sick, we did all these things in your name.
00:57:54
Speaker
And the Father will say, depart from me, I never knew you. Well, God's not saying, depart from me, you never knew me. he saying, depart from me, I never knew you. and And the question I've been asking myself for a while now is, well, who's responsible for revealing me to God?
00:58:10
Speaker
And the answer is me. and And I do feel like in those moments where, where things are right and I walk up the stairs out of my studio to get ready for my work day.
00:58:22
Speaker
If I've been honest and there's been a continuity between my work and my heart, I do feel like I've revealed myself to myself and to God. And, um, and that there's, um, that's such an indescribably beautiful and, um,
00:58:43
Speaker
and like robust and multidimensional yeah feeling. i love I love that. i'm I'm trying to write a book, and there's a question that gets asked in different circumstances of like, when are you going to celebrate? like when When will you know you've accomplished? you know When will be the point when this is finished that you'll celebrate?
00:59:04
Speaker
And it always for me, it's like when I sit down and read the final manuscript, I will feel so good. Like I don't, you know, it'd be great for other people to read it, but to have my thoughts actually clear enough that they're reflected back to me that I can say, yeah, that's what I think.
00:59:26
Speaker
Right. Yeah. It'll just be so rewarding and a relief to be able to have expressed that because sometimes it feels so hard to express what's
Creating a Fulfilling Artistic Life
00:59:38
Speaker
really going on inside. Right. Yeah.
00:59:40
Speaker
right get that Well, wow, Corey, this has been such a great conversation. i i feel like there's a lot of a lot of wisdom that you've spoken, and I want to go back and and take some notes for myself. But it's just, i I really appreciate the way that that you approach your work and life.
01:00:00
Speaker
And life and i i um I feel like there's a lot that that you've shared that's really helpful for people as we're kind of thinking through how do we create a life as an artist, as a Christian, as a person in this time and in this way and have the freedom and the encouragement from from people like you to to say, you know, it's okay to to do it a different way. In fact, it's probably that probably a really good thing, you know, and you can give yourself permission to take this time and create different kinds of rhythms and patterns. So i I just really appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences and your thoughts with us.
01:00:37
Speaker
Yeah. Goodness. Thank you for having me. i I love what you're doing. i think it's so ah you're creating a space for that kind of um a community of encouragement. And so that's really beautiful. And I've really enjoyed listening to some of the conversations you've had and I really appreciate being here.
01:00:56
Speaker
No, thanks, Corey. Well, we'll put all the information about the well, Breath in the Clay, the gallery that you work at, your work into the show notes so that people can can find you and and follow you as well.
01:01:08
Speaker
Great. Thank you.
01:01:25
Speaker
Join us next time as we wrap up the Artist Archetype Series and pull it all together with a discussion on how to use what you've learned to create your fulfilling path in the arts.
01:01:37
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Be Make do a Soulmakers podcast. All links and resources are located in our show notes. Want to know your Artist Archetype? Take the quiz at soulmakers.org backslash quiz.