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Artist Archetypes with Jason Hamacher
252 Plays2 months ago
"Jump in the current and let the river take you..., you know, I've got on a life vest... I'm semi prepared for the journey....But if you legit, surrender to the will, it's a ride!"
In this episode of the Be. Make. Do. podcast Jason Hamacher, a musician, photographer, and founder of Lost Origin Productions, discuss his multifaceted career and creative motivations. He and Lisa mine his experiences, including documenting ancient chants in Syria, playing in the band, Frodus, owning a gallery in Washington, D.C. among others, emphasizing the importance of quality over quantity. Jason shares his philosophy of not compromising artistic integrity for financial gain, even if it means working without profit. Join us for this look at the bold outlook of the Maker.
The Maker, The Mystic, The Soul Healer, The Imaginative Visionary, The Prophetic Critic or the Storyteller? What's your archetype? Take the quiz here!
Find out more about Jason Hamacher's work at Lost Origin Productions.
Listen to Frodus here.
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Transcript
Introduction to Be Make Do Podcast
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, welcome to Be Make Do, a Soul Makers podcast where we explore what it takes to pursue your calling as an artist with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom. I'm your host, Lisa Smith. And I'm Dana B.H.
Exploring Artist Spiritual Archetypes
00:00:25
Speaker
This season, we're talking about motivation, success and fulfillment by exploring the six artist spiritual archetypes, the maker, the mystic, the imaginative visionary, the storyteller, the soul healer and the prophetic critic.
00:00:40
Speaker
That's a mouthful. Good job.
The Archetype Quiz Insight
00:00:44
Speaker
Well, we created a great quiz to help you become really conscious of what motivates and excites you to make what you were created to make. We're all different and probably none of us fit neatly into any one of those categories, those archetypes. But thinking about your deeper motivations can help you build a creative path for your work and life that's fulfilling.
00:01:05
Speaker
and avoids getting caught in traps around striving for some idea of success or career that might not really fit you. In addition to exploring these archetypes, we're talking with creatives about how their unique motivations help them overcome challenges and find sometimes unconventional paths to a fulfilling life in the arts.
00:01:27
Speaker
And if you want to know what your artist archetype is, just head over to soul-makers.org backslash quiz, or find the link in our show
Recap of 'The Maker' Archetype
00:01:35
Speaker
notes. In our previous episode, we explored the maker. We looked at their motivations and challenges and what's necessary to thrive. So if you haven't had a chance to take a listen, go back after this episode when you get a chance.
Meet Jason Hammacher
00:01:47
Speaker
Today, we are going to be talking with musician, photographer, and maker, Jason Hammacher. Let's get started. Let's do it.
Jason's Diverse Creative Journey
00:02:05
Speaker
We are joined today for a conversation ah by Jason Hammacher, who's a musician and a photographer. He's a lot of things. He's a musician. He was the drummer for the punk hardcore band Fritus, an accomplished photographer and documentarian. He founded Last Origin Productions, has a gallery in DC, wants the project to document Syrian chants with the ah ancient Aramaic-speaking Syrian Orthodox Church, which we got to uh, participate with a little, we got to show some of that work after that was, uh, recorded and and photographed. He's also um a licensed massage therapist and businessmen. He's everything. Thank you, Jason. I know I'm not the first person to notice that you don't really fit neatly into a box, right? That's that is correct. Not by choice. Just the way you're made, huh?
00:02:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's something that I actually talk to my children about
Navigating Challenges of Being Different
00:03:02
Speaker
often. Yeah. um real Which is like, yeah, it's like, what do you do when you're not like other people? And it can be a positive and it can be a negative. It can also be a massive weight.
00:03:20
Speaker
For me, like for me specifically, so like, I have to like when I'm in a group of strangers or I'm at an event or something and and depending on the vibe of the room, I very delicately try to figure out how do I introduce myself without causing weirdness but like when you're in the creative world you know in my you know almost everything i do is like a little bit you know a bit sketchy but like left of center right you know like it it can be polarizing or make others uncomfortable in any way shape or form and i'm highly aware and ultra sensitive to it and so
00:04:05
Speaker
It's just something that I kind of explained to my kids. Like, even like as a parent, I was like, you know, ah do your friends think that I'm too weird? Like, like if I like chaperone something with my kids, right I'm like, hey, if I get to be like too weird, you just let me know.
Jason's Archetype Quiz Results
00:04:25
Speaker
And I was like, I will never purposely embarrass you in public ever, but I will maybe do it by accident.
00:04:32
Speaker
yeah just Pull me aside. They said, hey, tone it down. I was like, OK, fine. yeah ah Yeah, that's hilarious. well i mean i think that's well like it In the quiz that you took with the archetypes, that were that's kind of where we're it's a fun little tool to think about our motivations. and i I wasn't totally sure, but as i was looking it looked like you kind of scored a little bit of everything. you know like That kind of makes sense too for you.
Discovering Creative Motivations
00:05:02
Speaker
like what What would you say your were
00:05:06
Speaker
like what motivates you to create like what what kind of makes you tick well what's funny is i've never thought about that until the last like two years maybe like i don't reflect on what i do or why until someone else encourages me to you know like i i had a moment and like with With our exhibit, with our like it was mostly with Christina, where Christina was like, I need you to submit an artist statement. And I was like, i I don't consider myself an artist. I'm not going to do that. It's like, you have to. I was like, what do you mean?
00:05:52
Speaker
It's my stuff. But it was it was no, but like it was a major for the first time I like seeing everything up on the wall. I was like, okay, you know, I I am an artist, you know, like I do and it's I am not the type of individual that that um functions out of definition of self, like I do, right? right and And so regardless of what that is. um And so a lot of times going through and figuring out why do I create or why do I do the things that I do, but a lot of it was to kind of navigate myself, to learn right myself, but then also
00:06:45
Speaker
You know, my role has changed now as a, as like an arts and cultural promoter in DC, which is how do I facilitate the best possible experience for an artist? And then, you know, being an artist and doing all those things, like, you know, I can kind of problem solve for someone based on my you know, experiences, positive and negative and try to just ensure that it's it's something but something that I would be proud of doing alone, it let alone for someone else, whether that person's like famous or
00:07:27
Speaker
ah up and coming or a student like it doesn't matter to me. Yeah, yeah.
Passion for Curating Exhibits
00:07:34
Speaker
Well, you strike me as somebody who gets really excited about like making something, you know, like 100%. That's it's that that maker piece of things that it's, it's all about the work. Yeah. Yeah. um I get One of the things I really enjoy is exhibit design is getting every like lots of people like to like, Hey, could you send me, you know, plans for the gallery? And and then, you know, they'll kind of come up with an exhibit in their head. And when they show up,
00:08:12
Speaker
you know, I retain, I retain executive firecut. And so right you know so for example, like I had an exhibit and um the artist brought a bunch of friends to install, and they were kind of going over all these things. And, you know, I'm a night owl, we were there till like two. And then, you know, the friends started to kind of peel off. And I was like, Hey, if you will allow me is like, you can say no, say but can I redo your exhibit the way that I think it should look? And then, you know, we'll put it back if you don't like it. But I would like you to see the way that I see your work. Yeah. And then no one ever puts it back. Wow, wow, you know, like there's some pushback, you know, like not not pushback, but there's some like, well, what if we did this? Or what if we did this? And so, you know, it's it's that it's the delicate art of, of arranging something that's perm that's engaging in every way, as opposed to just one or two things.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah. Do you think about like what the audience's experience of that will be? 100%. Yeah. I'm thinking it about, I'm trying to like draw lines between curating an exhibit and like a punk rock band and, you know, feeling drawn towards recording the Syrian chants and what's, what's the through line there for you? i agree i yeah curiosity Well, I mean the,
00:09:50
Speaker
you know My music career started when I was young.
Influence vs. Commercial Success
00:09:52
Speaker
I was 17. We recorded our first record when I was 17. And by record, I mean, yes, literally it was a record, but um a lot of the drive to do, whether it's touring or doing the things in Syria or or even the gallery, it's kind of the adventure of doing it, like the journey, I would say, of doing it. Like, I'm about as outgoing as it gets. Right. And so, you know, meeting people along the way, um like, I spent like, so if you, I think I've been thinking about this a lot, you know, like Lost Origins has been open longer than Frodus was a band. That's weird. Lost Origins has been open for seven and a half years. Yeah. um
00:10:48
Speaker
And so thinking about that, i it's like kind of coming up with a comparison of, regardless of what the outcome is, is taking everything extremely seriously.
00:11:04
Speaker
um Like I joke around 90% of the time. um But know when no wind to be serious. You can be extremely serious and be joking at the same exact time. Which is my art. That's my art form. But the other side of that is is is bringing... Well, Frotus was jokey in our lyrics. I would joke around behind the drums, but it was a serious band that we took all over the world.
00:11:39
Speaker
And so I guess kind of the through line is this this this sense of discovery and of adventure and um and of service.
00:11:50
Speaker
you know um yeah one of the One of the big takeaways, like you know the the Syria projects been 19 years. you know like my um yeah it started yeah It started in 2005.
00:12:08
Speaker
And so um one of the things that I've been kind of thinking about is like I started Lost Origin Productions as a photography slash like kind of cultural company, but it was more out of service to these communities like, e you know, I did not I would, you know, I'm not, I taught myself all this stuff, not some PhD. It's like, I think I should be going to Syria and doing these things. I was like, right it's crazy that you can't hear it. Do you want me to do it for you?
00:12:43
Speaker
How much would that cost? they it like Cover my expenses, I don't need to get paid. yeah like Maybe to the detriment of my professional life, I should have some sort of hourly rate for something like that, but I don't. you know And so over the years, um and it's the same thing with lost origins, it's like, how can this place be of service to the artist?
00:13:07
Speaker
You know, I say conversation over commerce. I don't care if anyone sells anything. And that's at my expense. I mean, i' I'm not some individually wealthy person. Like I choose to not profit off of someone else's creativity. If someone else wants to sell their work, that's awesome. I can make it happen. But you know, people come and they buy things at the gallery. It's not like it. It's It's a component to the gallery, but it's not the impetus for the gallery. right And because I approach things that way, it creates a sense of kind of safety and comfort with the artists that I work with most most of the time.
Art's Value Beyond Commerce
00:13:50
Speaker
yeah Do you feel like if you had to do it differently, like if you had, um, that that would kill part of the motivation. Like if, if, if having to make a lot of money and fit some particular mold of, of quote unquote success in, in that, if you felt that pressure, how would that affect kind of the choices that you've made over time? Um, well, I mean, I have to make money. Like I'm back.
00:14:20
Speaker
yeah Right. But but so so for example, a couple of years ago, yeah maybe five or six years ago, I hosted this like private event. I don't remember who was the host. I think this may be the State Department or something brought 50 educators to Washington, D.C. and like on a tour bus. And so in the morning they came to Lost Origins and then they went to a Smithsonian and then two of this and a that. And so um
00:14:51
Speaker
one of the educators asked me, you know, for, you know, she was an she was an eighth grade teacher, I think some from the Midwest. And she was like, you know, one of my students really wants to be a successful photographer, like, what would your advice be for them? I was like, get a steady job. Don't make it your don't make it your job. Like when you go from like, whether it's a band, or your art form, or whatever, when you go from choosing I need to profit off of my interest, you are going down the road of you have to figure out how to compromise with yourself. Unless, unless whatever you do is naturally commercially viable with people. Yeah, everything that I do as a creative individual is not commercially viable.
00:15:48
Speaker
ancient Christian chants. Not that commercially viable. We're DC angular punk rock. Not that viable. You know, like, yes, there's a niche audience for all of the above. But you know, yeah know I'm not Britney Spears, like,
00:16:05
Speaker
And even if I try, like I've tried, like I tried to actually be like a session drummer and go play for other bands. And like be the dude for hire that could just make a living playing drums. And I didn't like that at all. It's like, okay, I've got to learn exactly how this song was written. You know, the drum part I don't like. I have to play the part I don't like anyway. And it's not about doing what I don't like. It's more about
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, like there's a part and it's something that I don't know how to voice as as I kind of stumble through it Like I don't know why I create the way that I do but I do know that I've made a series of decisions to not Exploit ah yeah like in the very technical sense of exploit My creative output, you know Does that make sense? Absolutely. No, I think it makes total sense and I think it's really important and and that's I think part of the conversation that I i want to have with people because i I come across artists of all disciplines who may feel stuck or not satisfied or or something because they think they have to be in a particular place and maybe it comes out as like,
00:17:29
Speaker
I hate marketing or I'm no good at business or or whatever, but the real question is, well, where do you want to go? you know It's so easy to get stuck in a place where right you think that success looks like X and you can spend 10, 20 years pursuing X and find yourself miserable hundred because like you said, now you're not even doing what you wanted to do in the first place and it would have been better to work at the bank and have all this time to just do your creative thing in the, you know, on on the weekends, at nights, whatever. um But I think a lot of people don't even think that way or feel like it's not okay. Right. Well, I mean, and then again, it comes down to like, in, in someone's, like, in the heart of hearts, like, what are they trying to do?
Social Media and Creativity
00:18:22
Speaker
You know, like, yeah, and ah like, I have to think about this all the time, like,
00:18:27
Speaker
that So when Lost Origins opened, like I was adverse to having an Instagram feed. I just didn't. I was like, I'm not doing it. um And then ah someone came in into the gallery that was like, I see your stuff online. I wish I could see it. It's a shame that I can't, blah, blah, blah. And it's like that one conversation, I was like, you know what?
00:18:54
Speaker
That's a different, that is different than what I thought I would do with this Instagram story, you know? And so like with social media, I do it very sparingly. I don't have some sort of grandiose influencer scenario where it's like, I'm going to do this where you have like a video and you point up and you point over here.
00:19:21
Speaker
Things are coming out everywhere. yeah Just trended. I'm trended. Yeah, I do it enough to be like mildly there. um But, you know, I was going through, I was like, how do I not have photos of all of these exhibits that I did? How do I? I was like, Oh, because I used to not document this stuff. And I was like, very specific about time and place. And you come here to meet and, you know, all those types of things. And in I use that as an illustration because I'm not set in my ways of like, I'm not doing this. You know, like if it makes sense, I've got opinions and if they don't make any sense, they don't apply, then I'll change them.
00:20:06
Speaker
allized yeah yeah That's really wise. Talking about things like marketing and and business and stuff like that, and and marketing things that are not as accessible if we're not Britney Stewart. You're somebody who works incredibly hard.
00:20:26
Speaker
to pursue whatever it is that you're pursuing or to share that with people. like how do you How do you approach that when when you're trying to connect with audiences or groups of people when it's not necessarily as commercial as other things?
Art's Impact and Personal Motivation
00:20:45
Speaker
What do you mean?
00:20:46
Speaker
like um Well, like you were talking about, I mean, you're doing Syrian chants and, uh, so the way that I, so one of the lessons I've learned over the years, I learned this. So here's a really good example of, of what I feel is successful, right? 2019, um,
00:21:16
Speaker
At the end of 2018, I was trying to set, you know, Lost Orange has only been open for two years. And I was kind of lot getting all of my ah exhibits kind of lined up for 2019. And then 2019 was the year of music for the Smithsonian. And so the Folklife Department ah said they would like to partner with Lost Origins for every exhibit that was music-related for 2019. That's insane, first off. but But what that means is every artist that was going to exhibit in 2019 would be in the permanent Smithsonian Digital Archives because it was it would be partnered with them. so And i had like that was the year I had a
00:22:10
Speaker
like a you know music book, music photo, book launch. We had the big Fugazi exhibit, the first exhibit the band kind of was kind of involved with and like all these things. And so Smithsonian also was going to have light funds to fabricate exhibits at Pustor's. It was like, this is crazy, yeah you know? And so all of these scenes have kind of snowballed around a mutual respect for the way we both work.
00:22:43
Speaker
Like the way that I approach arts and culture is almost the same exact way that department does. And it's just by fluke, you know, I'm like, cannot believe it's actually happening. I go in and have a formal meeting with the director. It becomes formal.
00:23:00
Speaker
I pull some favors, have like a celebratory dinner. This is on a Thursday night. And then Friday night, the government shutdown of 2018 and 2019 happens. wow right And all of it goes away. All of it. And the Smithsonian Folklife Festival was actually canceled. But so all of the funding, everything that was for the festival and all the programming you know got cut to pick up the pieces.
00:23:28
Speaker
I got asked to host the folklife festival in Mount Pleasant at Lost Origins. Wow. And so, yeah, I was like, what the hell? like Totally. You know, but but so the locations were two off-site locations. One was the Anacostia roller rink and the other was Lost Origins in the plaza here in Mount Pleasant and so I met like tons of people on that and then we got to kind of we had like a big concert folk life ran like three or four workshops inside of Lost Origins it was it was insane yeah and so like how much did I get paid for that zero
00:24:13
Speaker
you know How much did I ask for? Zero. i don't write That experience, learning how all of that works, is far more valuable than a couple grand for whatever. you know but Which circles back to what I was getting ready to say is during that process,
00:24:35
Speaker
I was trying to figure out, you know how many people do you think are going to show up to these um these workshops? And the curator was like, Jason, one of the biggest lessons that we learn here at the Smithsonian, it's like, but your public when you're programming for the public, you have no clue how many people are coming. The success is that it's happened, not attendance.
00:25:02
Speaker
And so I took that to heart deeply, whether it's how many people attend an exhibit, how many people show up to a book talk or whatever. And so, ah lot like, whether it's success for our culture is usually measured by volume.
00:25:24
Speaker
How much money have you made? How many likes have you gotten? How much were in attendance as opposed to and it's not it's not necessarily quantity over quality because you can definitely have both and have something extra successful. But I i think And the last several years has been, I have noticed ah that there is more emphasis on the quantity and a devaluation of quality. yeah And so I'm sticking with quality over quality. And and if it you know if they intersect awesome, if not, it doesn't matter.
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, well I'm just kind of thinking on a meta level about what art does and that idea that, you know, that it happened. It was here, the quality of it, like the the fact that we make art.
00:26:25
Speaker
Is almost is almost a ah reminder or a counter to all of that other stuff that it. It it makes it it makes a stop and remember that there's more that there is something more to just than just having more there's more to life than just having more.
00:26:44
Speaker
and And then one of the things, have you ever seen that movie 24 hour party people? It came out maybe like 2000, 2001. It's about the factory records, factory record label from the UK that did like Joy Division and New Order and all of that. And the way that the movie starts is or one of the early scenes. I don't remember if it actually starts like this, but you basically see a band on stage from the perspective of the band looking out into the audience. And it's a pretty dismal turnout. There's not that many. It's a pretty sparse audience.
00:27:25
Speaker
And then you find out it's not just a band. It's actually the Sex Pistols. Right. Wow. And there's not that many people there. And then it pans back into the audience. And then in text bubbles over the people in the audience, it's showing you, showing the yeah the viewer all of the bands and the wave of creativity that was started from attending that one, like that one concert.
00:27:54
Speaker
yeah And so I have always kind of felt that, like, you know, to kind of circle back to like what I've resigned to is like, my output is not commercially viable, but it's more on the in not influencer, but it's more influential than it is yeah commercial.
00:28:13
Speaker
yeah You know, and then looking at that Sex Pistols thing, like, you know, that was kind of like the Frodes experience where just not, you know, we didn't play to a ton of people. You know, we did a little bit more towards the end, but like, you know, to this day, it's like 30 something years ago, like talking to people.
00:28:35
Speaker
that or you know had heard or are fans of or whatever is far, far greater than anything I would have ever thought of yeah being a kid. yeah And so taking that same kind of principle to the the art world and to the arts and culture sphere is something I kind of It's the way that I approach it. It doesn't matter. like People can attend or not attend, but like what I'm doing you know at some point will be cool to somebody. Or be not cool. you know Yeah. ah Yeah. No, I love that. And I think i think that's important for for creatives, for artists to be able to approach what what we do with the sense that what I do matters. What I make matters.
00:29:30
Speaker
Regardless of you know if I'm the only one that gets to enjoy it or one person or two person, to have the faith really that that it matters, that I create. Even if in some cases it may not be until you know after I die that you know it's discovered or or or or or maybe it is just for a small group of people.
00:29:53
Speaker
Like having being able to to work from that posture i feel like opens up the possibilities for so many things that get cut off if it's like. It has to be what it goes yeah it goes even for me like so like that thing of life you know someone creating be like.
00:30:14
Speaker
if you're creat If you're painting, photographing, writing songs, whatever, for the sole purpose of trying to impress someone else, like you failed at the beginning. right Like you were setting yourself up for disappointment because you are writing for... you're You are expressing yourself or fabricating expression in yourself for you know external assurance.
00:30:43
Speaker
yeah you know And so if that's your impetus for doing it, that's where the commercial decisions come in. Then you know do something that's like palatable for the masses and then you'll get that pat on the back or that paycheck or whatever it is. But if if you're making something like and you're not really sure why, then that's kind of a solid starting place.
00:31:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. and I've seen that. I've seen people ah give advice to artists to start creating things that will be more marketable. you know You should start doing that as a postcard, but it's at the beginning as opposed to at the end. like It's a very different thing to create something and then to step back and sit and say, okay, well, how how should we market this? How do we share this with people? It's another thing to, like you said, start from the beginning Well if i change myself if i change the work if i change the scope in this way that way or that way then more people might like it and you are setting yourself up because that's.
00:31:50
Speaker
You never know. There's no, I mean, that's, that is kind of the way the the mentality, I think anyway, for marketing and the way our world functions right now of like, how can you, how can you turn this into something that's going to get attention or, or make money or, or whatever? The term is how do I monetize this? Yes. There we go. yeah And so with this from everything from like creating some kind of YouTube channel,
00:32:19
Speaker
to create to to get paid or reselling whatever trinkets whatever on Amazon to get paid.
00:32:30
Speaker
That is different than art. I do not consider i personally don't consider that art. like That's content. like You're creating something to be consumed. You are creating something for the sole purpose of like financial transaction. You're actually selling your rights to someone else so they can collect data and and exploit everything. ah wait Some people don't care. like I don't care. That's fine. you know And that that it that is one approach.
00:33:00
Speaker
That's just I just don't participate in that approach at all and never have you know yeah yeah and so we as as my like sun is now kind of working on like I told him.
00:33:18
Speaker
I don't like him watching video game, like videos on YouTube of people playing video games, right yeah right? I think I would much rather you get off and go play a video game and watch someone else play. I was like, but even better, I'm going to give you my old computer. Why don't you learn how to make your own video games? so Yeah. Like here you go. Like what, what engine do we need to get? Like all that kind of stuff. Yeah.
00:33:43
Speaker
Yeah. And so, but there is a thing where he was like, you know, we can sell ads on these games that he's going to make and make money. I was like, I need to read how that works. But that's, that is the impetus from the very beginning. That's how these things are kind of ingrained going forward, you know, in the younger generation. Yeah.
00:34:09
Speaker
Well, what's your perspective on sort of the the bigger function of what art is meant to be?
The Greater Purpose of Art
00:34:17
Speaker
I know that's a huge question. But like what what do you what role do you think it serves? And I think that connects to our motivations, too, of like why are we drawn why are you drawn to it? Why is that your thing?
00:34:34
Speaker
So I have this epiphany. ah When was this? I did, it you know, I don't do exhibits that often. I did an exhibit of new material about four years ago, maybe three um of these big California, like Fuji, let me borrow one of their medium format cameras. And I went with the family in 2021.
00:35:00
Speaker
to the Eastern Sierras. So like big open spaces, Death Valley, you know, all these kinds of things. And um really, you know, sunsets, you know, all yeah kind of yeah landscapes, like landscape work. And I was coming up with text for the exhibit. And right before, you know, I'd spent a week writing all this text and intro.
00:35:30
Speaker
about why I do all this. um And then I went to go see a friend who's a major photographer speak, and he did a whole thing of like, why do we, why do we do all this? Like, why, why do we spend so much time doing this? And he's won like two Pulitzer Prizes and, you know, like an awarded guy. And I really thought, like I need to sit down and actually think, why do I do this?
00:35:59
Speaker
Like a lot of the photos that I'm gravitated towards of my own work there, there's no one in them. No people are in them. And there's a lot of color in them. I don't like to do black and white. I was like, why, why? And I couldn't really figure it out. And then a lot of time, like I was like, okay, I'm actually going to sit down and question myself because I don't normally. Yeah.
00:36:28
Speaker
And I was like, these are my points of solitude. So like, there's like these really like, you know, to this day, like, you know, I'll have some of these ah pieces out and they're big, like four feet by eight feet, but huge, wow you know, really kind of serene moments and people like, Oh, you know, were you alone? I was like, no, my kids are actually standing two feet behind me as I took this.
00:36:59
Speaker
or Or like, oh, yeah, I jumped out of an RV and took this really quick before we went on to the next moment. Right. But so what really what has kind of hit me is as a photographer coming out of that really intense, really life changing project in Syria and then having that devolve into an international war and you know, having friends executed in all of those types of things, I use photography as my zen, as like my personal reset. And um so to circle back to your question of like, what is the greater? What was the question? Like, what is the greater purpose of art? Yeah, yeah. It's honestly, you know, it's in its individual, but I think
00:37:55
Speaker
For a lot of people it it is a way it it's more like I believe art and science is the language of god Like how do you like how do you reveal yourself, you know, like it's not in the calendar like There's not a whole lot of spiritual reverence coming out of an eye cal You know, yeah like yeah, it's these it's these places moments times where
00:38:24
Speaker
where it inspires reflection. And so it's something that I'm actively thinking about. So last last week I held ah I had a friend of mine, she's from the National Gallery of Art, had a wedding and I hosted the like pre ceremony at Lost Origins. And I didn't have an exhibit and I was like, I've got some of my stuff I can pull out of the closet if you want me to install. So like a temporary install of a Syria exhibit that I did maybe like five or six years ago. And it was the first time
00:39:08
Speaker
The first time in, I think almost ever where I had my work up in a room where I didn't know anyone except one person, like, you know, like at openings, yeah I know a good chunk of people that are there, you know? And so there was so much, I had so many conversations with people about what was on the wall.
00:39:33
Speaker
And they did not know that I was the photographer. That at the end of at the end of the night, I was i was like, okay. It is time I'm going to do a new solo. which It inspired me. It inspired me because I was like, if my stuff is affecting this group of strangers and they don't know that it's me, you know, I didn't tell them either. I was like, this is powerful. And whatever they're connecting with.
00:40:04
Speaker
I'm sitting on a whole bunch of other stuff that could be potentially as engaging. And I would like to try to facilitate something like that. Yeah. Well, is it for you on the thinking about the Syria thing and just kind of a little bit of, of how this part of the conversation started, is there a spiritual component to making
Spiritual Aspects of Art
00:40:24
Speaker
art for you? I mean, is that a, is that a part of your language with God or is it?
00:40:31
Speaker
ah
00:40:35
Speaker
yeah I'm going to say yes, and okay but passive yes. okay um I would have never had the reflection that we just talked about had I not done in you, had I not taken the photos, but I never, and this is the part, this is the part that is themo that is the like the key to all of this. yeah I wouldn't have any of this if I didn't decide to share this with anyone.
00:41:02
Speaker
Right, right. Like the whole point is like, I do these things, I put them out in the public without really knowing why. but yeah And then after getting feedback, then it makes me kind of question, okay, why do I do this? Yeah, you know, yeah and so that is kind of part of the the the bigger, dev you know,
00:41:33
Speaker
the divine conversation of, you know, reflection submission, you know, kind of whatever the words are, but, yeah you know, like, I, I don't know.
00:41:48
Speaker
Did I answer the question? like you did You did and I'm finding it fascinating too because ah talking to different people who again within those archetype kind of play and it's just it's just a little game tool. It's not anything scientific or anything there but.
00:42:03
Speaker
um but the way that people approach things based on kind of how how we're wired and and you are in this creator brain and then kind of the impact and the the meaning of that comes upon reflection afterwards where some people start the other way around. And so it's just, it's fascinating. I just, I find it so interesting to, um because you are such a creative person and what you do ends up being so meaningful.
00:42:33
Speaker
in so many different arenas ah that it's just it's just really interesting to hear how that how that process is in your brain, where you're coming from.
Embracing the Creative Journey
00:42:43
Speaker
There there was a moment on my last trip to Syria, ah I was permitted to record this Sufi order, right? um This was the first album that I released.
00:43:00
Speaker
10 years ago. And you know, that's when I was on like, in PR, you know, all that stuff. But so I called the guy from the Smithsonian, I was like, What is there something I should ask them to record? And there was a phrase that was afraid a Sufi phrase actually in Arabic, which I can't remember. But that sentiment was jump in the current and let the river take you, you know. And so through a long series of events. I have done that.
00:43:36
Speaker
a long time ago. Yeah. And so instead of trying to fight the river, I'm in it. Yeah. But specifically have jumped in, like, you know, I've got on a life vest, like I've got some like, just like, oh I'm here, take me where you want, as you like sink to the bottom, like, all right I'm said by prepared for the journey.
00:44:02
Speaker
But now that's a great metaphor that's so good you know and so a lot of it is if you. If you if you legit like surrender to the will. Like it's a ride.
00:44:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's great. yeah We talk with the SoulMaker stuff that we're developing in the the podcast, um but trying to encourage people to think about calling and purpose beyond just what you do or what you produce, like that that thing as if there is one thing, but to think about it in a threefold way of,
00:44:40
Speaker
really focusing on becoming who you were created to be you know paying attention to the the the creative work of art that you are but you know the interior life and what's really important about being human and those kinds of things as well as how you make and the process and the way that you interact with people.
00:45:01
Speaker
that and and this idea of showing up to the work as if what you're doing matters. All of those things are part of fulfilling our calling, not just something thing we do or something that makes money or something that other people think is important. that that it's It's about fulfilling all of who we are and bringing all those things together every day.
00:45:26
Speaker
right And I think that you know you're talking about not everybody values everything that's created, but it's really important, I think, to be in those spaces where you're curious. like that I think that's a lot of what I hear from you, too, is just this curiosity and and yeah willingness to explore.
Curiosity in the Creative Process
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yeah and explore without any semblance of outcome. It's also, it's like, I don't understand why people, why there is this, this expectation that like, okay, I have this interest. I'm really, I really like doing this. I need to make money off of it. Why? right Because that's what we're told. Like that, i mean that you know, unfortunately, that's capitalism, you know, like,
00:46:13
Speaker
There's the other part of it is like you could get this is how I actually got into photography. My bands broke up. I ended up working at this weirdo day spa as a receptionist in Tyson's corner. This is how I met my wife. 2024 years ago. um But it was just a job.
00:46:39
Speaker
And so I was like, dude, I go to work at 10, and I'm done at seven. I go to sleep at two. I've got like, I got another like eight hours after work. And that is how I taught myself how to use a camera. Wow. You know, so like, yeah ah like, I had time for a hobby. And then of course, quickly, it turned into a profession. Right. It turns into a profession. And like, that's,
00:47:07
Speaker
that's part of like the entrepreneur in me too. It's like, I say all this stuff, but then I will immediately turn it into a thing. You know, you got that drive. Yeah.
Challenges to Creativity
00:47:20
Speaker
So we've been talking a lot about motivation, but what, what is there anything that kills your creativity? Like what do you, what do you have to guard against? And how do you do that? Um, ego, it's like,
00:47:35
Speaker
i have I've been asked a couple of times over the past, there's been like a lot of struggle the last like two years where someone's like, oh, we really like what Lost Origins is doing. Can you do this over here? And I was like, yeah, that sounds awesome. Like I did two pop-up spaces and because I've kind of built my own world in the real world, I don't know how much what I do is worth in reality. You know, if I got hired,
00:48:04
Speaker
by a museum to you know do an exhibit. I have no idea i mean i know now, but like I have no idea like how much that is. And so it was the first time i like they were giving me this pop-up space. We had a killer exhibit with the National Park Service with their large format photographer on Ellis Island. It was like a bigger conversation.
00:48:30
Speaker
about like 80% of Ellis Island is you know off limits to the public but he's the guy that photographs the whole property and yeah this whole conversation about immigration and you know x y and z um and i knew it was being
00:48:49
Speaker
lost origins as a quote unquote brand was being leveraged by these by this organization to bring in, you know, investment into this neighborhood, and you know, all this kind of stuff, which I was like, I'm okay with. But it like, I will work to the bone, like to the like, for little to nothing, as long as I know that there's mutual respect for what for what I do.
00:49:18
Speaker
Right. And I found out that, you know, someone else who was paid three times more than me to just do some design work. And I was like, what in the hell? m And so I like I felt so betrayed because it was like, well, like, you know, like, well, that's what they asked for. I was like,
00:49:47
Speaker
So instead of you as an organization that deals with this all the time, valuing what I do and then offering me what they know my value is, you're saying, you're making me beg for my worth. right You already know it. I don't. You're taking advantage of me.
00:50:11
Speaker
right And so now we have to have a conversation because X, Y, and Z. like It was so infuriating that like it sucked. it like It bummed me out so hard. yeah And there's been there's been a handful of times where someone has take... like when When my intentions are are distorted,
00:50:37
Speaker
and, and, and thought of as negative or, or whatever, like that is, that sucks the soul out of me. Yeah. In a way that is, it is absolutely terrible for me. Yeah. You know, like doing all these things kind of for the, for, you know, for kind of the greater good is, you know, it was kind of my approach. Um, and then,
00:51:07
Speaker
willingly kind of lending my name to the to this organization and these things to do this stuff for a grossly underpaid, which is which I agreed to. But then to come to find out it's just because I didn't ask for more was so annoying. Yeah. Does that like Yeah, because it goes against exactly how you operate in the world. That's it's a much bigger thing than just money. Yeah. wow And so it's like, Oh, you know, you know, what I brought to the table was worth way more. You you just decided to pay me less. Yeah. Yeah. Like I get I like I used to get really annoyed.
00:51:52
Speaker
as getting monetary incentives. like i you know Years ago, I worked, this is the first time Jenny and I worked together at a facility. And they're like, oh, if you, you know you'll get a bonus of like $100 if you refer a person from this part of the business to the other part of the business. And I used to get so pissed. I was like, what makes you think I'm not gonna do that to begin with?
00:52:20
Speaker
like The only reason i I am here is because I believe in all the people that work here. Do you honestly think paying me a bonus is going to yeah encourage me? yeah i' like all you like Just pay me more than. like I don't understand. but yeah if like And it's just like i like, I also know that I'm not normal.
00:52:45
Speaker
Like we were talking about earlier, like that's not a normal reaction to get pissed off when someone's offering you more money. I am morally outraged. No, I totally understand it. It makes sense with how you kind of feel. Well, let's go in the opposite direction then. And maybe this this will be our last ah question. For you, what does it feel like when you're when you are working totally within what kind of motivates and turns you on? like the that that All the pieces are in the right. How does that feel for you to be in that kind of creative zone?
00:53:19
Speaker
positive kind I don't know. are you I mean, it seems like that's really energizing for you because you know yeah you are a go, go, go kind of guy.
Community Engagement and Fulfillment
00:53:30
Speaker
Yeah. So so here's a perfect like, I will tell you a story. I'll tell you two moments that I will take to my grave of something that I'm beyond beyond proud of, right? So yeah I think it would be three years ago I got asked to host the 100th anniversary of the White House News Photography Association. Wow. Yes, right? I think what?
00:53:56
Speaker
Sure. In a heartbeat. So it was three photographs per president for the last hundred years. Wow. um The curator was the former head curator and photo editor for the Newseum, you know, and and I did my thing. Like,
00:54:14
Speaker
they like everything had to be like, wildly licensed from all the photography, you know, all the stuff, all the photographers came that were alive. Oh, cool. You know, it was, it was insane. Like, I was like, Oh, crap. Like, here's this, like, legendary photo of John F. Kennedy. like This is cool.
00:54:33
Speaker
So as I'm unpacking it, I was like, this is insane that I'm unpacking these iconic images that I'm putting up in my gallery. Like the whole thing was like super surreal. Yeah. And then, you know, they left it up to me to do the design, which I was like, are you sure? They're like, we trust you. I was like, are you sure? OK. And the opening went off killer, like the whole thing was awesome. And so I do what I do. And then I was, of course, I always get nervous is not like anxious, maybe is the right term of like, that event is normally at the Library of Congress. I'm like, I hope this is like, good, good it enough, you know. And so at the end,
00:55:29
Speaker
The the curator was like from the design to the to the energy in the room to everything. This is probably the best exhibit I've ever been a part of. I was like, wow. Oh, my God. OK. Thank you. And it was kind of like. Getting that kind of getting that feedback yeah from an ultra pro was.
00:55:56
Speaker
really affirming for me. Yeah. And it was like, okay, this is incredible. And the other, the other and confidence building, you know, kind of like, like, I hope this is cool. And then like, I like, again, so like, we're having the opening, the room is packed with people. You know, everyone's like, just like, kind of celebrate a photo journal. So it's like, all right, everybody, raise your hand if you want to pull a surprise.
00:56:26
Speaker
no one raised their hand and they say, come on, seriously, just put your hand in the air. Like 90% of the room raised their hand. I was like, oh my God. I was like, all right, raise your hand if you want more than two. 75% of the room was like, awesome. I was like, hey, for the closing, bring your posters. We'll do shots off of everyone's posters if you want. This will be awesome. I had like, everyone had a good time, you know? And like for me,
00:56:56
Speaker
hosting these like extremely serious, I mean, that is a very serious exhibit, right but bringing humor and levity to it in a way that celebrates, that celebrates the creators yeah and then simultaneously honors the work is kind of where o my where I sit with Lost Origins. Yeah, right. Where it's like, what is on the wall is dire for me, like it needs to be perfect. Like I like, there's been numerous times where like, the morning of the exhibit, I will drive to go buy a special light to make sure like, you know, I was like, where um,
00:57:44
Speaker
But then the interaction with everyone is, is serious conversations combined with being funny and and and whatever to kind of humanize this creative yeah world. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. It sounds like the perfect, perfect storm of everything coming together. Like I, I, I have been, you know, I'm, I reflect a lot like,
00:58:12
Speaker
The, gap like Lost Origins Gallery is kind of the, it is the ideal, ah it's everything that I've ever done. It's like all of my strengths kind of condensed into one place, like hosting people, meeting people, being able to be creative with people or myself, like kind of problem solving, like connecting people, like doing all these things.
00:58:41
Speaker
is what kind of guided me to do these things all over the world. And now I can kind of bring it home and do it here in DC. Yeah. i I just appreciate so much you taking the time to talk with us today. is Really, it has been very, very fun and and and interesting to hear how your mind works and how all of this has come together. I don't know if that's a good thing, how much it works, but I hope it's good enough. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And we'll put in the show notes and all the stuff like that, we'll put the links for Lost Origins and other stuff so people can find you and connect, especially if you're in the DC area. Awesome.
00:59:30
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Thanks. Of course.
00:59:48
Speaker
Join us next time when we explore the mystic artist's spiritual archetype. Thanks for listening to Be Make Do, a Soul Makers podcast. All links and resources are located in our show notes. Wanna know your artist archetype? Take the quiz at soulmakers dot.org backslash quiz.