Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Data Science to Project Management
45 Plays1 year ago
Today, we will learn how Anna, a Product Manager at Amazon, utilized Springboard's data science track to transition within the company to her current role. She also discusses how to succeed at Amazon and what it takes to get into Product Management.
If you have any questions for Anna or the host, email us at alumnipodcast@springboard.com
Interested in finally taking the plunge by starting your career in tech? How does $1500 off a Springboard Career Track Course sound?
Use code EPEHT at checkout to save $1500.
Learn more here.
Edited by Dave Bianco
Cover art by Jerry Qu
Recommended
Transcript
Transition from Fashion to Education
00:00:14
Speaker
Hey there, everyone. It's Wednesday, which means it's another episode of Life After Tech Boot Camp. And I'd like to start this episode with a story. When I was researching career paths to defect from the fashion industry, I felt like I needed an MBA. It felt like it was a do-over stamp and I needed it from a well-known institution.
00:00:36
Speaker
because I felt like I had to prove something to the world.
Bootcamps vs. Master's Degrees
00:00:39
Speaker
I didn't really feel like I had a lot to offer as someone who coming from the fashion industry. And I happened to share this with
00:00:48
Speaker
My friend's dad, who worked in education, and he gave me some great foundational advice when picking a program. He said that regardless of what school you go to or what you study, that program needs to work for you. It's not just about the degree or the name of the school. It's about using education as a tool, not a ticket, to get the career you want.
00:01:15
Speaker
And he is right. Even Harvard University can't guarantee you a job. I would think that Harvard works very hard to find its students' employment and opportunities. But truly, there's no 100% guarantee someone will hire you just because you have Harvard on your resume. And I think that's what's so special about a boot camp or any accelerated course is that it's just a condensed program that teaches you exactly what you need to know.
00:01:43
Speaker
about a subject, it takes much less time to complete than the master's degree and it's way less expensive. So to me, it's like a really specific tool, like a tool in your kitchen that only does a few things, but it's used all the time.
Anna's Career Journey to Amazon
00:01:59
Speaker
And today I feel like our guest used her education at Springboard in a really unique and specific way to get to where she is now. So I'm very excited to introduce you to Anna.
00:02:13
Speaker
Anna did a springboard data science bootcamp in 2020, shortly after starting her new job at Amazon. Currently, Anna works as a senior product manager and a pricing systems team at Amazon with a focus on machine learning, data science, and data analytics. Prior to this, Anna had over 10 years of experience in finance, sales, and supply chain analytics for consumer packaged goods and retail companies in three different countries.
00:02:42
Speaker
Hi, Anna. Welcome to the podcast. Hi, Alicia. How are you? So good here. It is currently raining, so it's a perfect time to be recording a podcast, not going outside anytime soon. Awesome. Same here.
00:02:57
Speaker
Well, I would love to just get started. So, you know, you aren't in, you know, I hate calling people like the typical bootcamper. Like there is no typical person, but it is interesting how you had your job, but you started springboard just to kind of fill in some gaps to get to where you are. So would you be able to share what you were doing before you joined springboard?
00:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, so I was primarily working in consumer packaged goods and retail companies and at the time when I decided to
00:03:35
Speaker
upgrade my data science skills with Springboard. I was working for Blue Bottle Coffee in Bay Area and I realized that I wanted to basically learn more on the data science and my previous experience of looking for a job in Bay Area also led me to the conclusion that I want to upgrade my technical skills.
00:04:03
Speaker
The way how it went is I actually got a job at Amazon before I started Springboard.
Balancing Bootcamp and Amazon Job
00:04:10
Speaker
So I signed up in the summer and then the cohort was starting in January of 2020. And that's coincided with when I started my first job in Amazon.
00:04:21
Speaker
That's interesting. So what was your goal within getting this new job and getting into this bootcamp? Obviously you transitioned within Amazon, but was that the original goal or did you have something else in mind and then things worked out differently? Well, um, I think just looking at my, you know, background, uh, I, I have, uh,
00:04:47
Speaker
bachelors of economics and an MBA. And I was always very analytical and I like to leverage technology to simplify things. And I knew that even if I already got a job at Amazon, I still want to upskill and just learn more about data science and
00:05:07
Speaker
practice writing code myself and have a holistic view of data science. Actually, I think that decision was driven by multiple factors. The idea to join a bootcamp wasn't just to get a job in tech, which I did before I started the bootcamp, but also just to have these condensed programs that could teach me the basics of data science.
00:05:35
Speaker
And I think at the time I was considering of, you know, going for a second master's in data science and that would open some doors with career opportunities. But then I already have one master's, so that seemed like, you know, too much at the time. And I liked the flexibility of being remote, like in the remote study setting.
00:05:58
Speaker
who would have known that we all will be removed by 2020. Yeah, so that's how I decided to, you know, do the streamboard bootcamp data science track.
Learning and Self-improvement in Bootcamp
00:06:10
Speaker
That's fantastic. Yeah, I can't even imagine like completing one masters, which an MBA sounds like a lot of fun from my
00:06:19
Speaker
research of that program. But to do it all again, yes. But you were balancing springboard with a full-time job. And while you're working remote, that had to have been a lot. How were you able to manage both? I think I'm just good at multitasking. Just thinking back of that time, I started the job in January at Amazon in supply chain. By March, we all shut down.
00:06:48
Speaker
managed to fly to New York in mid February and you know that was when we already had patient zero in Seattle and there was COVID in the US.
00:07:00
Speaker
And some people were more aware, like cleaning their seats on the plane. And I didn't perceive it as such a big deal until the beginning of March when they shut down the offices and everybody went into the COVID mode. And for supply chain at Amazon, it also meant very busy times. And I think I was just energized by the mission of the company.
00:07:26
Speaker
I was energized to contribute and to learn more with my updated skills. So I think that was just driving me. And also, just to be fair, we were all stuck at home for that spring of 2020. So I think that was the best use of my time.
00:07:44
Speaker
Certainly. Yeah. And thinking back, like I did my bootcamp during COVID. I did not have a job at the time, but there wasn't much to do except I feel like everyone was like baking bread, watching Netflix, which are great activities, but why not learn something now? So, and knowing that you're good at multitasking,
00:08:04
Speaker
I see nothing wrong with all of that. So tell me a little bit like you're in the course and clearly your career goals are a little bit more specified. Um, what really helped you the most in the course to that you're using today?
Applying Bootcamp Skills at Amazon
00:08:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think what they learned throughout the course is, uh, just ability to ask the right questions and like ask good questions. And, um,
00:08:32
Speaker
Knowing that there is no bad question or wrong question to ask, it's more about how you actually phrase the question to get you to what you actually want to learn. Because sometimes in the course, when I had a problem with my code or I had trouble pre-cleaning the data before it goes into the science model,
00:08:57
Speaker
you know, like I struggled with formulating these exactly because like, you cannot just say, oh, I don't know. Like, because of course, like it's expected that like, you don't know much about data science, but for the person who will be helping you to answer the question, they need a little bit more details and just saying that I don't know, you know, so they could be able to help. And sometimes even just like, you know, summarizing what you understood,
00:09:26
Speaker
helps to just clarify and Yeah, so and it I think it helped me like in my course as well as at work Certainly and it's kind of interesting how you might have been able to apply some of the learnings a little bit to what you're doing now Would you be able to share did you do anything? additional outside of the course for your learning I think I'm continuously owner in general but I
00:09:55
Speaker
When I just started my adventure with Amazon, I did the springboard bootcamp and at the time I was also working on anomaly detection machine learning model at work. So understanding how data science models work and how to measure
00:10:17
Speaker
the success of machine learning model actually helped me a lot. Prior to springboard bootcamp, I had experience of going to just like a small like Python learning group in Bay Area. And I remember that like I made a commitment to attend this because I was living like in San Mateo and I was coming to San Francisco to do this.
00:10:45
Speaker
study group after work and it was basically just run by a volunteer and we will just like volunteer volunteering like attending this study group and I put a lot of effort into it and I wanted something more structured so
00:11:02
Speaker
with springboard, it allowed me to just practice coding myself and kind of just deep dive in it and applying it like to the, you know, like basically asking better questions at work and asking more informed questions of my science team.
00:11:20
Speaker
Certainly, certainly. And so obviously the job search, you weren't finishing the course in job hunting. Would you tell us a little bit about your experience switching your roles at Amazon internally? Yeah, so I started in finance.
00:11:41
Speaker
that was supporting supply chain optimization technologies team. So, you know, there was some level of technical knowledge required because the team was building machine learning algorithms for supply chain and a lot of, you know, advanced sciences used for supply chain optimization. And then
00:12:03
Speaker
From there, eventually, my, you know, upgraded technical skills allowed me to switch to a product manager role first within the same, you know, supply chain finance team. And then I continued my journey as a product manager. And I was also working for supply chain of AWS infrastructure finance. And currently I'm on the
00:12:29
Speaker
a team that creates ML pricing algorithms for Amazon. When I said that I'm a continuous learner, what I meant is that I didn't stop with the springboard knowledge. I also researched internally and Amazon has a lot of resources. For example, we have machine learning university where you could take a three-day course or a two weeks course and some of it is available
00:12:58
Speaker
you know, remote is like basically you can study at your own time so you don't have to like block your time during the day or like sacrifice work. So yeah, so I think I just built on my screen board knowledge and continued to learn. And yeah, I was just like basically browsing through what's available for learnings at Amazon and picking up what I liked and what was interesting to me. I
Navigating Amazon's Interview Process
00:13:25
Speaker
see. Interesting. So, um,
00:13:28
Speaker
I'm sure a lot of people like Amazon being a fang company, and while you didn't necessarily apply for a tech job initially, would you be able to share a little bit of what that interview process was like? Because I'm sure Amazon's the top company for a lot of people.
00:13:48
Speaker
So Amazon usually interviews on soft skills and technical skills for all the jobs. And for soft skills, they ask questions around Amazon leadership principles. It's widely available online. So you can Google it and find information down to a specific example of questions that they ask. And then there will be a technical interview. And depending on the role, it will be
00:14:14
Speaker
different, but I think even if you're applying for a non-tech position at Amazon, I would advise to have the basic understanding of how to manipulate data and maybe just basic knowledge of SQL because you can get asked, even if it's not originally planned, there could be a question, how to massage data and
00:14:37
Speaker
use SQL, so I want the listeners to be ready for it. I switched to product management role internally, so my experience was that the technical interview was around
00:14:50
Speaker
the system design of the products that I supported as well as data science models that I worked with and just, you know, basically probing questions around like details and like basically to make sure that I know what I'm talking about and I have the understanding of science and
00:15:12
Speaker
Interesting. So I realize Amazon is a high bar. I was talking to a software engineer who works at Google and she was saying that, I forget if it was her product or project manager, they require them to know how to code. Is there anything sort of, you know,
00:15:35
Speaker
specific to that at Amazon where you're expected to know a bit more of a skillset that wouldn't necessarily be considered part of a role like that? Yeah, so according to product management guidelines within Amazon, a product manager is not required to code in Python themselves. You would be expected to know SQL quite advanced.
00:16:05
Speaker
And as for coding, I think sometimes it just helps. And I've seen like product managers can do very different job depending on the team. And it really helps if you can code yourself or if you can read other people's code. But that's not the requirement of getting a job.
00:16:24
Speaker
Certainly. And I know you haven't had jobs at every single company, but do you think that's something sort of specific to Amazon in product management? Or is that something that product managers typically should know across the industry? I will be honest. I don't know. That's why I'm trying not to forget Python and still code every now and then.
00:16:51
Speaker
Fair enough. I was just very curious about that. When I had talked to my friend at Google who said that, I thought, wow, that's a really intense high bar for a product manager. So I wondered if that was the case.
00:17:07
Speaker
Elsewhere, but you know if anyone's listening like I'm happy to hear what is really required but moving on so It's interesting how you know a lot of people we've talked to on the podcast have gone strictly into the roles of their Bootcamp course, but you've gone into product management, so I'd like to understand a little bit more about what drew you to that specific
00:17:34
Speaker
role instead of maybe doing a direct data science job.
00:17:42
Speaker
Yeah, so I think throughout the springboard course, I realized that I like data science and I like building the model, but I actually like more to like productionalize the insights. And as a part of my springboard course, my mentor actually offered me to include additional step where we create
00:18:08
Speaker
a simple website for my first capstone project and it was like extra work and I just decided to take it on because I was bored in COVID and then we built this website using Python anywhere which is like
00:18:23
Speaker
you know, it's like open source platform where you could build your website and I really enjoyed it. So and I realized that, like, for me, I like when all the pieces
Role of a Product Manager at Amazon
00:18:35
Speaker
come together. So it's not just doing the science right, but also like, you know, doing the engineering right and making sure that we are doing it in a timely manner and
00:18:46
Speaker
delight our customers. Certainly. Yeah, it's definitely a different perspective, seeing things from the top instead of just like focusing on one specific niche area. So I'd love to, I think, product manager that, to me, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like it encompasses a lot. And I'd kind of love to understand your definition of what a product manager does. Oh, yeah. So
00:19:15
Speaker
I think it's a very broad role. And I think that in general, a product manager connects the customer needs and makes sure that the software product that we are building is the right product for the customer. I see. OK.
00:19:42
Speaker
What kind of, if someone were coming out of a bootcamp, what kind of skills do you think it takes to be a product manager in the sense of, I just finished my data science program, I'm interested in not doing the science, I kind of want to do what Ana's done. What do you think it takes overall?
00:20:03
Speaker
I think you probably would need to consider more junior roles than if you were considering a data science career track. And then you need to show that you really worked on a project from start to finish. So for example, if you created a data science model in your course, you need to also show documentation about
00:20:27
Speaker
you know, like what was the customer needs for this model? Like what probably what customer problem did it solve? And yeah, and maybe if you worked on the website, or, yeah, if you participated in some hackathons, or, you know, data challenges, and you actually build something from start to finish, I think that would be also a good experience for applying for product manager, because most of the questions would be,
00:20:56
Speaker
not to in detail describe the works and the
Career Opportunities through Volunteering
00:21:02
Speaker
guts of the science model, but it will be more about how did you actually decide that this is the big problem that you need to solve? What was the analysis before you started to solve the problem? And then afterwards, how do you
00:21:21
Speaker
actually make sure that this model is successfully addressed in the problem and like, uh, maybe even like connection to the customers as a satisfied with the solution. And maybe like thinking about like, what would be the next, uh, models that you will build or how you would improve on it. So you kind of need to think broader and think how that data science model applies in real life to your customer problems.
00:21:49
Speaker
And yeah, I think you will probably need to step down to a more junior role, but then you could also gain the experience through volunteering. A lot of people in COVID were doing projects with COVID data, just to bring some goodness to the world. And I actually know for a fact that even internally at Amazon, that experience mattered and people were considered for product manager jobs by doing these volunteering projects and creating some products.
00:22:19
Speaker
Um, yeah, so, so seems like that would help. Oh, that's really cool. So you're saying, um, so I guess our, I'm envisioning with what you said, Amazon had some volunteering options for COVID data and then they brought them on full-time or was it just because, you know, like the city or government had volunteering options and then Amazon took notice.
00:22:44
Speaker
I think it's more like there was a problem at Amazon that could be sold with data and one Amazonian just took the lead and, you know, they basically like worked on it on their spare time and created something. Oh, interesting. That's, that's fantastic. And I love how like certain, I mean, obviously I didn't love that COVID happened. I don't think anyone did, but you know, it's great that that did provide some opportunity for others.
00:23:12
Speaker
So I'd love to hear a little bit more about your day in and day out at Amazon. Like I know in our pre-interview, we talked a little bit about the company culture, but also I'd love to hear about the types of projects you're working on, what you're allowed to share.
Current Projects and Challenges at Amazon
00:23:26
Speaker
Yeah. So usually I talk a lot throughout my day and currently I'm working on two projects. One of them is about, you know, just a better estimate for the long-term value of pricing decisions.
00:23:41
Speaker
So this project, it's more like long-term and it's more like strategy alignment and educating all of the stakeholders about the project. And then I also have another project where I'm extending the current version of machine learning pricing model to 10 countries across Amazon.
00:24:09
Speaker
So for that project, I have a lot of meetings and a lot of Slack communications and it's really cool. And I really like the opportunity to work on talking to Amazonians in different countries. Yeah. So, but there's also a lot of, you know, conversations with scientists and engineering for this project. So, so yeah, you know, a lot of it is like, um,
00:24:35
Speaker
coordinating and also just a lot of meetings and talking with customers or stakeholders. And with pricing, it's like two tiered approach because we have internal stakeholders who you could also call customers, you know, because they are impacted by our pricing, machine learning algorithms. And then you have Amazon customers who see the price on Amazon website.
00:25:01
Speaker
And in my current role, I cannot directly talk to the Amazon customers from the website to capture if they like the price or not, but I have some other ways to look at that. And I can talk to my internal stakeholders and also just gather all this information to make sure that we are making the right decisions on the product.
00:25:26
Speaker
Certainly. Yeah, that's so fascinating. I mean, I think everyone can relate to going on Amazon.com and looking at all the different pricing. I'd love to know a little bit more about the company culture at Amazon.
Amazon's Leadership and Culture
00:25:36
Speaker
Like if someone's really interested in working there, what are you expected to bring to the table? I think Amazon really values the leadership principles and people would even talk about performance, like in terms of the leadership principles. So, you know, whether it's bias for action,
00:25:54
Speaker
or thinking big or owning the product that you're developing or the work that you're doing and being initiative. So people would actually use the leadership principle names when they describe performance. And just because we all talk about leadership principles so much, everybody kind of understands. So I think it saves time and it's like a common language. I think also you need to,
00:26:24
Speaker
you know, just be self-sufficient. It's a big company. And when somebody just starts a job at Amazon, you really just need to like onboard yourself as much as like you will be given onboarding resources, but you need to be like initiative and like to learn new things. And there are also a lot of acronyms and sometimes like the conversation is like a completely different language because there are so many different acronyms and
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah, some of them are really funny actually. And it's like, you know, you hear this and you're like,
00:26:55
Speaker
Okay, like, why did they just say it? Like, and then you learned that it was an acronym. I say, okay, I can completely relate. Um, there's so many acronyms at Verizon as well. And yes, it did sound like I was listening to another language. It's kind of weird now. I know what everything, well, not everything. I actually looked up an acronym in the glossary today, but the common ones that we use within our team is, and I always been trying to be very sensitive to new people.
00:27:25
Speaker
because I don't know what Amazon's like, but it sounds like it can be intimidating and Verizon's a little intimidating because we're so complex. But yes, I would love if one day to like compare your acronyms with my acronyms.
00:27:42
Speaker
Let's see if they match. And actually, to add on that, it depends like it's team specific. So if you switch teams, like you will get a new set of acronyms. And we have internal weakest, so it's not just you have to like, you know, write them down at home and like memorize like we have internal resources to reference, but you kind of need to like
00:28:02
Speaker
save the link to that page where all the acronyms are and things like that. And also like in terms of intimidating, I think everybody has an imposter syndrome when they join Amazon, I had it. And, but I think I'm just like,
00:28:19
Speaker
stubborn sometimes and if I don't understand I would ask a question again and that helped me you know like and it also helped me formulate my questions better and then as per acronyms I think somebody like told me early on that like even people in the room don't know all the acronyms so it's like it's okay if you don't know some of them. Certainly well that's good to know that there's a little bit of empathy there like you know all the acronyms if you don't know it you're not going to get
00:28:48
Speaker
in trouble. So every team has different ones. So does that mean you might have one acronym for, I don't know, subject A, but then subject A and another team will have a totally different acronym? Absolutely. Yeah. That's why when you learn the first time, like, and then you hear it and you're like, okay, like, it's like, so yeah, but yeah, like usually they are documented on the internal weakest. So
00:29:15
Speaker
It's kind of like a language learning. You just need to remember that now this scene is used for a different term. Certainly. Oh, man. That sounds like a good internal project. It's to streamline all the acronyms, but something tells me that wouldn't go over very well. People can be pretty set in their ways. I mean, we just have so many diverse businesses at Amazon, like, you know, Satellites, Kuiper, and like AWS.
00:29:43
Speaker
retail pricing and I don't think they could, I mean, obviously there are like some shared acronyms, but they would also have like their specific ones. And I think it goes just beyond the acronyms because also there are code names for products and projects. And I think historically they had a lot of acronyms after, yeah, like after sci-fi movies, you know, and like all of the culture and yeah, like Star Wars acronyms.
00:30:13
Speaker
It's funny how sometimes you try to come up with a new product name or acronym and you're trying to make it more Star Wars-y and then you look at them internally because they're already 10 of the same ones. That's hilarious. Now that I'm thinking about this, what a unique interview question to ask your interviewer. How is it learning your acronyms at this company? What's that like? I think that if a boot camper were to ask that,
00:30:44
Speaker
That'd be a little special. What do you think? I mean, to be honest, I don't think it will fly with Amazon because it's like you don't have to learn these acronyms anyways. Or like you just need to show that like you're open to learn means, you know, and like you will be able like you basically it's not about like knowing all the acronyms or like, but I don't think they would appreciate if you have a concern of how many acronyms
00:31:09
Speaker
because they do have a lot. So it's like... Oh, yes. No, no, no. I agree with you. Don't show concern, but it would be an interesting, like, fun question. The icebreaker, yeah. But anyways, okay, let's move on from acronyms. So I would love to hear a little bit more about kind of where you see yourself going in this profession, considering, like, you sort of used springboard to supplement your knowledge.
00:31:39
Speaker
What's next for you?
Future Aspirations and AI Trends
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah, so I think just because product management is such a broad role, I will continue honing my skills for product management. And there are a lot of, you know, different areas. Like, for example, we could be learning how to launch products externally and create like go to market plans for something like Alexa or a new AWS service, which maybe I'm less exposed on a pricing algorithms team.
00:32:23
Speaker
Yeah, the other option is truly deep dive with existing teams. And I'm actually quite new on the team, so I still have a lot of work here. And just to understand how improve current machine learning models to make the predict prices better and deliver better customer experience ultimately.
00:32:49
Speaker
Because we believe that if you make the right decisions on prices, ultimately it will improve price perception and customer experience. Certainly. No, it sounds like you're incredibly passionate about your job. And I'd love to know what your favorite thing about working in your role is. I mean, I just like the impact that I'm making being in a global company.
00:33:15
Speaker
working on something that pretty much everybody who use Amazon can relate. I guess that's, yeah, that's encouraging. Absolutely. And I'd love to know, like, you know, with your wealth of experience, like, is there anything that you'd love to share that I didn't ask about that you think is, that you're really excited to talk about? Um, yeah, so I mean, what's really interesting to me right now is how AI is developing and all the trends in AI. And I know that it's a big topic for,
00:33:45
Speaker
springboard right now. And I think you kind of need to just like step out because like there are a lot of intermittent trends and AI is obviously a big trend, but it's almost like you need to judge for yourself if, you know, like, for example, if you're going for a data science, you know, job hunt or like a product manager in tech job hunt, do you want to deep dive on AI because this is a new and trendy topic
00:34:15
Speaker
Or do you think that this is just like a buzz and in a few years it will like subside and, um, you know, like you don't need to be an expert on these. So I think just like kind of just, you know, reading about the trends and understanding what are the trends and data science and, uh, product management that can help when you're applying for jobs, because maybe you want to learn a little bit more about some specific area. And maybe you will like learn the skills that will help you.
00:34:44
Speaker
in multiple roles. So it's like, I guess AI is actually one of the examples, right? Because it will apply to many companies are trying to do something with AI. So learning about it is important. But also, it's like, would you really double down on it? Or like, would you step outside and say, Hey, like, okay, now I know a little bit about AI, but they also know about other fields of data science. Yeah, like anomaly detection, clustering,
00:35:14
Speaker
all the other fun stuff like computer region. So it's like, it depends. And also just, you know, think about what you like to work on and, you know, let your passion lead you.
00:35:24
Speaker
to your perfect job. Yes.
Following Personal Interests in Careers
00:35:27
Speaker
No, I think that's amazing insight. And I think there is so much mystery around AI right now. It's, it is trendy. And I, I think it would be a whole other episode to discuss like where that's going. Cause I certainly have some opinions on that for the UX field. Um, but I really loved how you said, you know, follow what you care about, because I think at the end of the day, if you're doing what you love, then
00:35:53
Speaker
you know, there's no wrong in that. If AI is not really your thing.
00:36:00
Speaker
see what other paths are out there. Well, Anna, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story. If anyone has any questions for Anna or myself, you are welcome to email me at alumnipodcast at springboard.com. We're going to be doing a special episode later in the season where we answer any questions you have for all of our guests. So
00:36:28
Speaker
Again, Ana, thank you so much for your time and until the next episode.