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Trail Running Series: Coaches Round Table
8.7k Plays1 year ago
Alyssa welcomes fellow coaches Alexa Hasman and Brian Passenti to a coaches round table to discuss in race fueling strategies. They break down using aid stations, planning race nutrition, as well as fueling considerations for different distances. With all three having experience running distances from 50km to over 300 miles, each discusses how they individually approach a race, mistakes they have made and how they have learned to deal with ups and downs in their own careers. They also give advise on managing nausea and their ride or die must bring nutrition. Lastly, the three discuss what to do when it seems like everything is going wrong, and how to dig yourself out and keep moving forward. You do not want to miss this lively discussion on managing your race fueling.
Write to us at [email protected] or check out our website uphillathlete.com for more information on our offerings.
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Transcript
Introduction to Uphill Athlete Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi everyone. Welcome to the uphill athlete podcast, where we strive to educate and empower you to be your mountain best.
Meet the Coaches: Alexa Hasman & Brian Pessenti
00:00:09
Speaker
Today, I'm psyched to be doing a coaches roundtable with two of my favorite coaches and also just rockstar trail runners and trail coaches among many other mountain sports.
Race Nutrition Strategies: Contrasting Approaches
00:00:33
Speaker
So today we have Alexa Hasman and Brian Pessenti on with us. They are also to, well, you actually have your whole trail running trading group coach team on with this call. So thanks for both being on, you two. Thanks for having us. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
00:00:53
Speaker
Of course. So this is going to be a really fun episode. I think that we had a preview of how varied our answers are. So we do question and answer sessions for the trail running training group and Brian and I were on one of the calls and we happened to
00:01:14
Speaker
get a lot of questions about, um, race nutrition and what, what do you do with aid stations and all of that. And Brian and I realized that we pretty much had be a complete opposite, uh, ideas and not ideas, but like complete opposite strategies of how we approach, uh, fueling and nutrition in a race. So we thought it would be really fun to make a podcast with this as the major topic. So thinking about,
00:01:43
Speaker
how we fuel, how we deal with aid stations while we're actually in a race. And the nice thing is, is all of us have experience from, you know, sub ultra distance, so 20, 25 k's, all the way up to 240 plus miles. So we have quite the range of experience with distances.
00:02:06
Speaker
So we'll start with Brian, and then Alexa, you can follow up. How do you go about planning your nutrition for a race? Like when you sit down, you come up with your plan, what does that look like? You know, that's a great question. And it's really event specific. If I
00:02:26
Speaker
Think about it. I usually go to the website with a race site and see what products they're sponsored by, what products they're going to offer at their tables, at their aid stations, as well as what real food they're going to offer at their aid tables as well. So is it going to be ramen?
00:02:44
Speaker
chicken broth or is it gonna be potatoes and soup? Just knowing what's out there and hopefully their website is clear enough and accurate enough to give us a good representation of what is going to be offered. So that's the start of my nutrition plan. I do use aid stations and I eat quite a bit at them and refuel
00:03:08
Speaker
hydration wise, Adam as well. But between the aid stations, I usually use sports specific products and I carry enough between the aid stations. I usually create drop bags for those aid stations so I could resupply to fill those middle gaps. Nice. What about you, Alexa?
Factors Affecting Nutrition Planning
00:03:30
Speaker
So it's funny because you said that you're completely opposite and I would say that I'm very the opposite of what Brian said. I plan now and I plan as if the aid station, I just presume that they're not going to have what I need or want, right? So I go into it with my stuff, plan my drop bags based off of that if I use drop bags or my crew.
00:03:51
Speaker
and then carry what I need to on me. And I make sure that I have all that. And then, you know, like with anything, especially when you get into the longer distances, what you planned eventually changes, right? You no longer want to eat your spring energy anymore. You don't want to eat waffles anymore. And so that's when I start to rely on the aid stations because I start to switch it up and go to, okay, well, now I might want to check out, do you have fresh pancakes? Do you have broth? And that's when I sort of switch over to that.
00:04:21
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah, I will say that when I'm planning it out, I'm looking really specifically at
00:04:29
Speaker
how long I am in between aid stations, what I have like a really specific, I eat something every 40 minutes, generally it's a spring energy. And so I'm sitting there and I'm calculating like what I think hours wise it's gonna take me in between aid stations where I can maybe refuel or if I need to resupply. So I'll sometimes be carrying like
00:04:55
Speaker
12, 13, 14 spring energies on me because that's what I need to get through that section. And so a lot of my calculations is just literally like within my notebook, which I left in the airport the other day, which I'm really sad about. Um, anyone in the Boston airport finds a notebook. I'd love it back. Um, but yeah, I just really sit down with a pen and paper and a spreadsheet and just try to guesstimate how long it's going to take. And then I throw in like a couple extra because you never
00:05:25
Speaker
know what can happen. But that kind of goes into my planning for nutrition. So Brian, you touched on it, but what are some of the key parts that you consider when you're making this plan? And how do you factor in weather, terrain, altitude, other elements? Because there's a big difference between running 50k on like a towpath
00:05:52
Speaker
in Maryland versus running 50k in, well like, URE for example. Yeah, I think you hit on a lot of the key points or they've been touched already. I look at the distance between aid stations, the terrain I'm going to cover, how fast I think I'll be moving at that point in the event. As far as weather and altitude goes,
00:06:17
Speaker
I obviously keep an eye on it prior to the event, but we can never really know day of what it's going to be like or what it's going to do on any particular part of any particular course most of the times. So yeah, I pad it just like you had mentioned, Alyssa. I pad it with a little bit of extra calories just to be safe in case I'm moving slow, in case something happens.
00:06:43
Speaker
I really think that's just about it, just factoring all those components and then patting that. I think for me, one of the things I do consider with weather is, while obviously utilizing hot stuff at eight stations when it's cold, but also having stuff in my pack that doesn't get too cold that it is
00:07:05
Speaker
hard to eat, and I've come across that situation before, like, stroopwafels can get really hard and difficult to eat when they're cold. And so that's something to be aware of. And then on the flip side, things that melt, right? If it's too hot, you don't want things in your pack that are gonna melt and then you cannot eat them.
Hydration Essentials and Aid Station Tales
00:07:22
Speaker
So that's what I consider when I'm thinking about weather conditions. Yeah, I would just add on to that, that altitude, I've heard,
00:07:35
Speaker
can you can burn upwards of 20% more calories if you are at a higher altitude. So you have to consider that are racing fueling strategy that might work for you at sea level or just above sea level, you're probably going to need more calories when you are at altitude, because
00:07:55
Speaker
you are burning more up there. And it's also same thing when it comes to cold weather that can really take a, take a chunk out of your calorie usage, or increase it rather. And so what may work for a
00:08:15
Speaker
I guess like relatively temperate again, like sea level type race. As the weather, the terrain, the altitude becomes more extreme, you're probably gonna need more fueling. Also, chances are your aid stations are gonna be farther apart. And so it's good to be really taking into consideration all of those factors going into it. Yeah, absolutely. And then remembering to continue drinking when it's cold too, because I think we often,
00:08:44
Speaker
think, okay, we got to drink, drink, drink when it's hot. And when it's cold, we can sort of be deterred from drinking a ton. And it's important to stay on top of hydration no matter what the temperature is. Yeah, that's a great, great reminder on that.
00:09:01
Speaker
So I think that we've kind of answered relying on aid stations, but what are some of your go-to? Like you come into the aid station and you go, oh yeah, that's one that always hits hard with me. That works for me. Yeah, for me, it's pancakes. When they're making those hot, fresh pancakes at the aid station, like, yeah, that's, that's killer.
00:09:24
Speaker
Obviously, broth with noodles or potatoes and stuff like that. Potato chips are absolutely key. Absolutely key, no matter what. I have to have my lazy potato chips. I'm very particular. Pringles are not going to do it. Pringles don't cut it.
00:09:41
Speaker
of course if they've been sitting at an aid station especially if it's like a dually race you want to be careful about the potato chips because you reach into that bowl and you're like oh never mind those are it's just mush but heck at that point you might not care right
00:09:55
Speaker
I tend to fly more by the seat of my pants. I kind of like scope out the thing. I guess if I walk in, always watermelon and salt. That's like the first thing. That's like the appetizer. I feel like I get in there and I'm like eating watermelon and salt and I'm looking around to see what else I could devour inside of this aid station. I'll do the grilled cheese. I'll do the quesadilla.
00:10:19
Speaker
I'm not a big ramen or potato fan for whatever reason. I think it's just years of burnout on it, but I do use the broth. So I use broth and then actually in your array this past couple of weekends ago, I created dino chicken nuggets and I had them put them in chicken broth. So it was like a chicken soup of sorts. That's amazing.
00:10:45
Speaker
The casing didn't come off in the suit. It did. It was breading. It was fine. It was good. I mean, it was pretty instant. They didn't make it and then let it sit around for a while. They dunked them and I ate them right out of there. They were moist and they weren't dry. The knuckets weren't dried out because they were using them on a flat top griddle. Really what it comes down to is like toddler-style food, right? My little kids would love that. Like dinos swimming in seaweed, essentially.
00:11:14
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, that's awesome.
Fueling Strategies for Different Race Lengths
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny how the more and more you do these, the more you realize you're really just rooting back to childhood. Maybe that's all of us are just massive kids at heart. And that's what we're trying to get back to.
00:11:30
Speaker
I would say I think that I'm not a huge aid station user, which becomes more problematic in $200. It kind of bit me at Moab in some ways. I'll dabble with some ramen. That seems to sit decently well, just like that nice warm broth. But I think one of the best things I ever convinced someone to make, I was
00:11:54
Speaker
deep into our Dijon and we were at this like crazy mountain pass and I was having trouble eating and they have hot tea with tons of sugar in, which is amazing. And I somehow convinced them to make me an Arnold Palmer and just squeeze like a ton of lemons into this hot tea with sugar. And it was the best thing ever. And I was like, convince myself that I introduced Italians to what Arnold Palmer's were and that they were forever gonna remember that.
00:12:24
Speaker
which definitely aren't, but it was game-changing of just like this warm, salty, delicious, like slightly sour drink. And that was probably one of my like crowning moments of aid station witchcraftry, we'll say. Yeah, that sounds pretty good. Yeah. Hey, good tip for Bigfoot in coming out. Yeah.
00:12:50
Speaker
I like to do like the hot water with like ginger drops in it for like if I'm feeling nauseous at night when it's cold. So it's like warming, but it's also like a little bit stomach soothing. So that sounds sort of similar to that, but yours sounds really good too. Yeah. I think the biggest thing is just how much sugar ends up being in there.
00:13:18
Speaker
as we get into like 50k 100k 100 mile 200 miler, what are some of the fueling considerations that you are making as you're getting into these like, let's start with a shorter distance. So we'll say like 50k 100k and then getting into 100 mile and 200 mile. Yeah, so I guess for me when I think about like a 50k or anything below like 50 miles, I think about stuff that's really quick
00:13:48
Speaker
right? So you just want to think about, you know, the spring energy is a great example, something that's quick and easy, you can shoot it in, you can hike while you're eating it, stuff like that. Whereas when you start to get into the longer stuff, you can take a little bit more time to like eat a burrito or, you know,
00:14:05
Speaker
your pancakes and waffles and quesadillas and that sort of stuff. So that's how I sort of look at the difference in distances as you start to get longer, just allowing yourself bigger opportunities to eat. I'd say the shorter distances potentially have the idea that you're going to be out there for a shorter duration, less than 10 hours, hopefully, depending on the course and the terrain.
00:14:30
Speaker
and where that course is located. And so I can survive on processed food for 10 hours, a sports specific processed food quick, right to the bloodstream and keep pushing for the eight to 10 hours of a 50K or 150 miler as an example.
00:14:50
Speaker
As the distance grows, I tend to eat a lot more. And up until 240, I was eating like double cheeseburgers and taking a burrito to go just to keep the calories in because you need it because you're out there for three days or better. And so you really got to just be mindful of the duration that you plan on being on a course and what those fuel considerations might be.
Finding Personal Nutrition Needs
00:15:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think that one of the biggest takeaways as you get longer, as both of you said, is that you can't really survive just off of the sports food. Like it's just not a sustainable fueling source. You have to start getting into real food and also just expanding beyond carbohydrates because you're going to need to, like at some point your body's going to start trying to repair muscle. And so you need protein, you need fat to keep up with the
00:15:52
Speaker
the demands of what you're doing. So carbs, great for 50k, like exactly as Alexa said, quick and fast. But as you're getting to longer stuff, I so envy Brian that you can eat a double cheeseburger. That's truly an impressive skill is probably why you're a rock star at 200 milers.
00:16:15
Speaker
Thanks. Thanks, I think. Put on your resume. So what are your ride or die, especially say you're helping a new client who maybe let's say is running their first 100 miler.
Managing Nausea During Races
00:16:35
Speaker
What do you give them or help them with as like your go to nutrition tips?
00:16:44
Speaker
I think I make suggestions on how to find what works best for them. I don't think I offer out what works best for me. I think for myself, I've gone through the process of trying all the sports products in the running stores and REI. I've bought four packs of everything that's been on the shelf, and I've taken a couple days to try them and see how they sit in my stomach when I do workouts, if I'm doing an interval workout or a longer workout. And I've gone through that process, so I feel like
00:17:14
Speaker
I've done the work and I know what works best for me so I offer up that advice to anyone else trying to figure out what works for them. Buy the products on the shelf, use them in training, see which ones settle in your stomach the best, which ones work, which ones don't, and find out why. What's in the ingredients that
00:17:30
Speaker
What's in the products that don't work? What's the specific ingredient in there that doesn't sit right with you? And just look for that in the future so that you don't recreate that problem. And then if you know what works, stick with it. Definitely don't change the plan in the race strategy, unless there's a catastrophic failure, which we'll talk about in a little bit. But otherwise, stick to the plan and know that it's been tried and trued because you've done the work.
00:18:01
Speaker
Yeah, for me, I think it's pretty similar. I think of it as long runs are time to practice. So I'll give them a list of like, this is what I really like. But these are also good suggestions. And, you know, everybody's so depend on what they like and flavors that they like and textures, especially is an important thing to consider.
00:18:19
Speaker
Some people are very textured, dependent on things. So I think it's important to take those long runs to play around with it and figure out what works for your taste and for your digestion. So yeah, I'll give them a general list of suggestions, but then let them sort of experiment.
00:18:38
Speaker
Yeah, same. And I think one of the things I always try to emphasize with my clients is that there's nothing wrong with them. If things aren't working just right, that is part of the process. And so many of us are always attempting and trying and tinkering to figure out even once you've been in the game for years and years and years. And also,
00:19:03
Speaker
um not necessarily changing anything but if you find like hey this thing has worked for me for like three years and then all of a sudden it doesn't work like don't try to keep holding on to it let it go like it doesn't like things change i mean i've had races where
00:19:20
Speaker
The only like potatoes and salt were the best thing ever. And then the next race, I made like trays of potatoes to bring to the race and couldn't touch them. And so it's, it's annoying. And that's why I always say to clients like, don't be discouraged.
00:19:36
Speaker
like we none of us have truly truly figured it out it's always experimenting it's always trying your best to troubleshoot um which i think leads us to kind of the next part of this which is troubleshooting and the first thing that i think so many trail runners deal with is nausea so how do the two of you and we'll start with
00:20:01
Speaker
Alex, then go to Brian, manage your nausea when it almost kind of inevitably comes up. Yeah, I think, you know, I've been lucky that I haven't had too many bouts of really bad nausea, which is good. But when I do, I make sure to start to focus on ginger, that's really my go to for it. Like I said, like the ginger drops ginger shoes.
00:20:28
Speaker
Coke really helps make me feel a lot better, just like a little cup of Coke. And just sort of slowing down a little bit till I can get it under control has been my experience when I have come across it. Then I expect to really hit that hard and really experience that in a few weeks here. So I'll come back to you on that.
00:20:53
Speaker
I've been fortunate enough, I don't deal with nausea that often, but just most recently I did. And so how I combated it just most recently was with carbonation and all sorts of different forms, just like Alexa had mentioned.
00:21:09
Speaker
I'll do the coke, I'll do the ginger ale. I was eating like the noontabs. And they got like a bubbly carbonate. I don't know if it's carbonation, but it's fizzy of sorts. And they all kind of settled my stomach. I was able to
00:21:27
Speaker
to release a lot of air from my stomach just by burping and just kind of letting it out. And I think the carbonation helps with that. That's where my nausea stemmed from this particular bout with it. And slowing down helped as well, or just keeping the pace at a more manageable level instead of being up there at the top end of zone two or three or something.
00:21:53
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I don't think I'm going to be friends with other of you since both of you don't seem to really deal with nausea. And that's quite literally been the story of my ultra running career is how to manage nausea. Because I spent upwards of 20, 30 hours being super nauseated. And oh, yeah, I had a I had a race last year in the Alps where
00:22:15
Speaker
I it took me like 19 or 20 hours to finish and I think I was nauseous for all of it. So that was not fun. I've done it. No, I was nauseous for like 50 miles. Yeah, so it's
00:22:31
Speaker
pretty much been like my, I guess, curse. Luckily I've started to figure it out a little bit more. But for me, go-tos, I actually sometimes will take an anti-nausea, which is called Zofran. It's
00:22:48
Speaker
legal. I've checked many, many times. It's actually for pregnant women. Um, it's like an anti-nausea. You can have it prescribed by your doctor if that's something you're interested in. I know other ultra runners use it, but again, you know, take it like I made sure that I tried it before I got into race. Um, but that seems to help me combat it some. I also always bring ginger chews. I always bring toms, um, even stuff like Imodium.
00:23:18
Speaker
And gas acts it can be really helpful. We're getting really deep into the unsexy stuff But yeah, as both you said to you like carbonation can help a lot with the ginger ale
00:23:30
Speaker
or the coke. But yeah, the other thing too is I always say that part of the reason why I think I struggle with nausea is because I go out like an asshole and try to just, as much as I try not to, just hammer right off the bat. And that is a really easy way to get yourself straight into a very nauseous place. So if you can slow down and not be like me,
00:23:56
Speaker
trying to get better at that, then you probably will be smart like Brian and Alexa and not get as much nausea. So listen to them.
00:24:07
Speaker
Yeah, say that the few times I have gotten nauseous, it's because of too much sugar, like too much of the sweet stuff. And so like really changing how I'm fueling at that point to makes a difference. So like instead of continue with like, chewy, sugary things and gels, I'll switch it up and go to something a little bit more savory. And I feel like mine was a direct correlation to being at altitude for just a duration.
00:24:37
Speaker
Um, and I think that affects a lot of people, um, even myself who, who, um, I do live at altitude already. Um, but being over 11,000 plus feet, um, for an extended period of time, um, I think played into mine, uh, particularly this weekend or this past weekend. Yeah.
00:24:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think the altitude, it's really hard not to have some kind of nausea. I think I've told Brian this, but when I race ERA, which is really like pretty much all 7,500 feet to almost 14,000, it's quite high. And I think there was like,
00:25:20
Speaker
six or seven of us that came through an aid station and every single one projectile vomited and then continued on their way. It was just like the aid station of vomiting. So I think like it's unfortunately just a reality often of trying to do your best at altitude.
Liquid Calories and Electrolyte Management
00:25:40
Speaker
But I think before we dive into what do you do when everything goes wrong, I actually wanted to touch on, because Alexa brought this up, what do you all do for your electrolyte strategy? And do you use liquid calories as a means of getting calories in?
00:25:59
Speaker
Yeah, this actually came up the other day in our trail running Q&A too and it was fine because again, Brian and I have completely opposite opinions on it. So I do use liquid calories. I do the scratch high carb mix and what I use
00:26:15
Speaker
is i use i don't count it towards my overall calories i'll just use it as sort of like a top-off method because no matter what i know that i won't be getting enough calories so i i just don't. Count it towards and it's just like bonus calories is how i consider it.
00:26:32
Speaker
So that's what I do. And then of course at some point I switched to sort of half and half. I'll do one like bottle of scratch high carb mix and one of just pure water. Again, just because you can get a little burnt out on the taste in your hydration. So yeah, that's what I do. So you do both bottles to start with the high carb? So first I start with just high carb and then eventually I switched to half and half.
00:27:03
Speaker
Wow, that's impressive. Thank you. Brian. Yeah, no, I couldn't do both. I always have to have one thing of water because I'm just like dying of sweet. And also my mouth is just like, I hate this. Well, and that's the thing that I like about the Scratch high carb mix and why I moved away from other hydration brands is because it's sort of tart. So it makes me want to drink it a little bit more and it doesn't have that sweet undertone to it.
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah, because like when I did have like the sweeter hydration things, I couldn't I like physically couldn't do it for very long. Yeah, and I'm more like you, Alexa, or a list. I'm sorry. I, I go one to one I go.
00:27:45
Speaker
bladder or a water bottle of water, just straight H2O, and then a bottle of electrolyte mix. And I'm not too picky on it usually. I don't take calories in liquid form at all. It's just...
00:28:03
Speaker
It's just that actually will irritate my stomach for me. If I were to have some GI issues, it would become from liquid calories. It just doesn't settle the proper way. So I need to eat a double cheeseburger at the eat station and get my calories.
00:28:18
Speaker
And I would also say that in some races, even in just my previous past experience, that it came to almost nip me in the bud. It was hotter than it was expected to be, or normally is, in your rate this past event. And I had to go to the product that was offered at the aid station, which was a scratch product. I'm not sure if it was the high carb or some other
00:28:47
Speaker
product but it was scratched nonetheless and I hadn't used it before so I was kind of running that risk so I did a bottle of half scratch and half water just to dilute it down just to kind of see how it settled and kind of worked my way into it. I was unfortunately committed to having to do something or I was going to be in a worse spot than I was already in and so I
00:29:09
Speaker
I worked through the process. I did the half bottle, half water, half electrolyte mix. Then I did a three-quarter electrolyte with a quarter water and then I was just filling full bottles up with the electrolyte mix and it seemed to settle fine for me. But it was a risk that I really wasn't comfortable with initially. I was like, this could be ugly. This could go bad because it was just unseasonably hot compared to what it had been in past years. So I was unprepared for that.
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's always tough when you have to make that on the fly decision of like, this is it. And we I really hope that this doesn't bite me hard. Do other of you use salt pills or salt tabs at all? No, I've had I've had really poor experiences with salt pills. They make they make me not feel great. So
00:29:59
Speaker
Do you actually mind expanding upon that a little bit? Because that's a question. Salt pills are definitely something that's, that's like, I consider slightly controversial. Not like, ooh, controversial. But just what was that experience? And what do you think happened? Yeah, and like, I want to say it was the salt pills. But I mean, it could have been so many different things. It's when you're in the middle of a race, you know, there's a lot of factors. But I took the salt pills and my stomach just started cramping up like crazy.
00:30:29
Speaker
I wouldn't say it was like nausea per se, but was just like, just cramping and like just really felt terrible. It was hard to run through. Yeah, just not a good experience. So I didn't, I sort of thought of it as like, sort of my stomach took like a salt bomb, right? And so I think it was just overloaded on just like a sudden drop of salt into it.
00:30:53
Speaker
I do not use salt. I do not use salt pills. I haven't had a negative experience. I just prefer to get salt on my watermelon as opposed to a salt pill.
00:31:10
Speaker
I've kind of been digging more into them because if you are filtering water, you can't really put any kind of electrolyte into your water. So if you're doing like an FGT or you're doing a longer route just this training, it's much more challenging to get electrolytes, especially during the summer and so salt pills can be a good alternative.
00:31:33
Speaker
I think they were like very much an old school thing and then have kind of like dipped down a little bit and are starting to come back somewhat. But I had always had a similar, I haven't had a terrible experience with salt pills but I've met
00:31:48
Speaker
other people with terrible experiences with salt pills and so they seem really easy to mess up and that if you take too much it can be really quite detrimental because your body is just like trying to process it and being over salted sounds really quite as miserable as being under salted.
00:32:11
Speaker
So I think if you are taking salt pills, and again, like I just had a conversation with someone about them yesterday, that's why I'm interested in them and kind of been looking at them, is you have to make sure that you drink a lot of water with them. If you are just taking the salt pill and then just running on your way, then your body is not going to be able to process it well. So you have to be drinking quite a lot of fluids if you are taking that salt pill and also
00:32:39
Speaker
practice it in your training and read the label on the back and see what they recommend and start on the low end and then increase as you see fit. Don't just like start dumping salt pills in because I think that's where people get into trouble.
Handling Race Setbacks and Mental Resilience
00:32:56
Speaker
Yeah and I think another alternative to that is those salt chews that you can do and that way you can sort of just bite off a little piece of it or like hold it in your mouth a little bit longer and let it dissolve into it instead of like the pills I think are
00:33:08
Speaker
just so concentrated and hit your stomach all at once. I think that's where people probably run into problems with them. But yeah, they do work really well for some people. And that's great. Yeah, and I will add
00:33:21
Speaker
as a word of caution that as much as you might be tempted to think that just bringing a bag of salt with you is going to be enough electrolytes. I have done it. I made a huge mistake in a huge upgating was like, Oh, just bring this bag of salt because I've heard that like people just stick their finger in and lick it. Don't do it. Don't do it. That's how you do blood.
00:33:49
Speaker
I'm telling you, in my 30 years of life, I have made a lot of really dumb mistakes. No, it was a good idea. So, anyway, that's what happened. That leads us to... I was trying to save weight. Sure, yeah. Anyway... You can't be the first that have tried that, so I'm sure somebody else is listening and laughing as well.
00:34:18
Speaker
Yeah, I read it somewhere so I got it from someone and it's just come, I'm not that smart. Just go over that great plan on my own. Anyway, so.
00:34:28
Speaker
This leads us to a great question. I'm excited to hear this. What do you do? And I think Brian's touched on this with his URI experience. What do you do when everything goes wrong? How do you refocus? And what do you focus on to get yourself back on track? And if you want to use a specific story or just kind of general, either one. We'll have Alexa go first. Oh, gosh. OK. Or Brian. Your eyes got really big. So baby, Brian, if you have another story from
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, I want to hear your Yurei story. It wasn't, I just didn't have enough electrolyte on me, the Yurei story is that I didn't have enough electrolyte on me for the heat conditions. I was expecting it to be much cooler up high. And even at 13,000 feet, 12,000 feet at two in the morning, I was still wearing a t-shirt only.
00:35:17
Speaker
So it was unseasonably warm. Yeah, it was actually scary like it was it just felt odd like I should have a jacket on I should have some warm warmers or something on And I was still in a t-shirt. Of course, you know, my body was dealing with its own Heat issues heat and cooling issues But it but everyone else around me was wearing a t-shirt as well so I wasn't the oddball out and it was just unseasonably warm so I had to take on a more electrolytes and that meant I
00:35:47
Speaker
trying something new that the aid station provided because I didn't have enough on me or with me for that weekend. That's the end of the URA story. But what do I do when everything goes wrong?
00:36:03
Speaker
Gosh, I don't know if I have a great answer. I think I try to bring it back to basics, like to the founding pieces. I'll go back to what I brought for my sports nutrition. I'll start trying to just take in water and
00:36:20
Speaker
not large quantities of water, but start with just bringing it back to the basics. I know that the sports specific food that I brought with me and water are the two fundamental pieces that I'll need all weekend. And so I'll just go back to that and see if I could start to incorporate other pieces to it. Broth is always a go-to.
00:36:44
Speaker
And I try to focus on what is working, even if everything else isn't working. I'm ahead of the cutoff. I've come this far. I've done all the training to get here.
00:36:59
Speaker
all the things that are going for me instead of trying to focus on the negative, I guess. And this is the worst race ever. I'm going to DNF. I'm not going to make it all those negative talk. I try to get that out of my head and go with the positives. I'm still ahead of the cutoffs. They haven't told me to stop moving forward yet. So I got that going for me.
00:37:19
Speaker
I think, yeah. I think that's about it really. I kind of just am the grinder. I can just grind in that space for a while and be okay with it or have in the past done that. I think our resident mental training expert would applaud you for that mindset. That's a huge tip or like not tip, but just like that's a really good way to frame it and I think will be helpful.
00:37:48
Speaker
to a lot of people. Yeah, absolutely. I think, well, first, are you talking about like, when everything goes wrong in general or with nutrition? Well, I feel like they kind of go hand in hand, because most of the time, like, I would say when things start to really go wrong, a lot of it is generally based on like, nutrition deficiencies, but take it as you will, we'll open it up to interpretation. I was gonna say like, usually my
00:38:17
Speaker
It's not a nutrition issue for me when things go wrong. It's usually like something just completely unexpected, like an injury pops up or something like that.
00:38:31
Speaker
And what I do is sort of like what Brian said, I try to reframe the situation. Obviously I don't push through it if it's going to be dangerous or anything like that, but I try and learn like, okay, is this something that I can work through? How can I fix it? Like say if it's a foot issue, can I fix this issue? Can I keep moving and giving myself that time to sit with it and breathe through it? And if it's like a situation where, you know,
00:38:57
Speaker
you're upset about something, giving yourself a set amount of time to be upset about that and then being like, and before the race starts, I always plan that out with my crew. Like, hey, if I'm upset about this, give me five minutes to be upset and then you gotta get on with it, right? Because I think it is important to be able to have those emotions and express them and then be able to move on instead of trying to necessarily push through it when you're upset. So that,
00:39:27
Speaker
for nutrition and hydration. If something has gone wrong in the past, it's just that I've been underprepared. So I haven't brought enough food or water with me. And so I've ran out a little bit earlier than I expected. And so I've just learned from those mistakes of being like, all right, I need to bring like two extra gels just in case. And I need to make sure I have an extra soft flask. And that's just a process of like learning through experience and knowing that sometimes sections will take
00:39:54
Speaker
an extensively longer time than you expect because things pop up or trails are more technical than you think or you know you hit a patch of snow and it slows you down and there's you just got a plan for that.
Preparation and Positive Mindset for Racing
00:40:06
Speaker
That's great. Yeah I would say I mean I can think of
00:40:12
Speaker
I think I've mentioned this, but in Moab at mile 58 station, Oasis, I just, Brian knows that's just a really long exposed section of trail where you don't have eight or you have one water station, then I think you have a 22 mile section and you're playing the game of like fast and light or be safe. And I played the fast and light game and I lost.
00:40:37
Speaker
And I rolled into mile 50-something and literally was laying on the ground convulsing in muscle cramps and spasms and was super nauseous. And the medic just looked at me and was like, this is not great. And I was like, it's going to be fine. This isn't great, but it's so early. You have time. And I think that's the biggest thing to remember when things go wrong is
00:41:06
Speaker
Try to acknowledge your feelings and then, not immediately, but when you're ready, know that you have time to come out of it. And I love the expression, I've said it before, it almost always never gets worse. And so at your low moment, it could get worse, but there's a chance.
00:41:28
Speaker
it couldn't. And so I would say the lowest point of my Moab 240 was at mile 50. And the rest of the race, especially from like 120 on went really well. And if I had given myself the chance to just like lay on the ground for five minutes, get myself back together, rehydrate, etc, I wouldn't have gotten the chance of the
00:41:52
Speaker
to have like a really fun experience and be out there and a chance for the race to turn around. And so I think just similar of like Brian and Alexis point is just reframing things, giving yourself the time to acknowledge like, yeah, this is crappy, but here we are and here's what we're going to do about it. And I was saying also to a newer runner,
00:42:17
Speaker
that as you gain experience, you get more tools in your toolbox. So I'm sure that each of us, when we get into a situation where things start to go wrong, we have like five, 10, 20 different ways to fix it. Like, Oh, I'm cold. I've got
00:42:34
Speaker
a buff to put on. I've got a hat to put on. I've got gloves to put on. I can pull out my hand warmers. I can move a little bit faster. You just start learning ways to help and problem solve yourself rather than just being like, oh, here's the end. This is what I was waiting for. I wasn't sure I could finish it. And here is the thing that is going to just derail me. So I think just making sure you have a lot of options
00:43:02
Speaker
and a lot of resources mentally, physically, etc. to pull yourself out of it. I think the question is worded weird. The question is, what do we do when everything goes wrong? And I think you have to plan for that. Maybe the question isn't worded weird.
00:43:23
Speaker
My thought is that it's going to go wrong is more of the case. You're going to have those low moments. You're going to have those low bottoms. You're going to have those bottoms. And the lows get lower and the highs get higher the longer that you're out on a course in 200 plus miles or so.
00:43:50
Speaker
And they they get tougher to get through, but you have to have a plan for how to do that. I heard it was funny because I was driving the URA for the race and I was catching up on my podcast list because I had a lot of time in the windshield and I was listening to
00:44:07
Speaker
the John Kelly episode, I want to say it was, and longevity at the top, it was a few weeks ago, but I was just catching up at the end of it. And something that resonated in the end of that episode was like,
00:44:21
Speaker
Like I'm choosing to be at the event, I'm choosing to be in this space, like it's going to hurt and suffering is part, it is, maybe suffering isn't the best word, but feeling uncomfortable, feeling uncomfortable is part of the process. And it's not going to be all rainbows and unicorns. And so just knowing that, so while I was in Ure in the middle of the night, slogging through these mountains, you know, I thought of that like, oh,
00:44:47
Speaker
I asked for this. This is what I signed up for. This is what I was looking for to get out of this. And that always kind of helps brighten the light at the end of the tunnel. Like, oh, it's not that bad. I paid to do this. It wasn't like this is a forced exercise or something along those lines.
00:45:06
Speaker
Yeah I think that's a fantastic point and I always think of it is that if I stop early that I don't get to experience the rest of the event or you know if you have Pacers lined up or a crew you're really excited to see like you don't get
00:45:23
Speaker
the rest of that event and get to experience that with them. So obviously there are times where pulling the plug is the correct decision, injury, etc. But you've curated this fantastically experience and I'm always like when I've had to stop or had things lead me in that direction like I'm just sad that I missed out on the rest of it. I'm like no I came here to do the whole thing like I came here to run with my friends to
00:45:51
Speaker
get to see porcupine rim or whatever. And it's like those moments that are super low or when things are going sideways are just kind of the test to get you to have the whole experience. And it's so cool when you look back and you're like, oh yeah, I did that. And like, I can do it again now. Did you really see porcupine rim though? Wasn't it like 3 AM?
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. It was 4am. Oh man, that was brutal though. It really was. It was so much longer than I thought it was going to be.
Final Advice and Closing Remarks
00:46:30
Speaker
Alright, any last words or takeaways you want to leave our listeners with?
00:46:39
Speaker
I joke a lot and I say this often as a joke, but there's some truth to it. I always say that I'm trying to get my money's worth out of the aid stations. And what I really mean is like eat a lot and eat often. Because once you're behind, it's so hard to catch up and you'll never really... Once you're in that deficit and you're still moving forward, you're never really going to catch up.
00:47:04
Speaker
So maybe my example is obviously a bit funny and a play on getting your money's worth out of the event, but really eat a lot. Eat often, eat stomach as much as you can, practice that in training, and I think you should be successful with some of those tips.
00:47:27
Speaker
Love it. Yeah. Along those lines, like Brian just said, practice. Make sure that you're not going into the event, not knowing what your nutrition plan is going to be. Practice it, refine it, practice it again, refine it some more, and get to the point where you feel comfortable with it. It will change. It will absolutely change, but at least go into it with a plan.
00:47:53
Speaker
Love it. And I would just say, I feel your feelings. But overall, the more positive and grateful of a mindset that you can bring to the race to the situation, the easier it's going to be when it gets hard because it's going to get hard. That's what you paid for. As the hurt logo says, we wouldn't want it to be easy.
00:48:14
Speaker
So thank you both. Uh, this has been super fun as always and good luck. Brian, you have a race cup or you have Leadville coming up. Alexa, you have big foot coming up. So two major races. Um, you two are awesome resources. So go for it, Brian. Oh, I have a dragon dragon's back.
00:48:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, in just a few weeks, like a month. So thank you everyone for listening to the uphill athlete podcast. If you could rate, review, or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, that really helps us to spread education and safety in the mountains. It's not just one, but a community. We are uphill athletes.