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Interlude- I Sit Beside My Computer And Think...
17 Plays21 days ago
Ryn and Sam know absolutely nothing about poetry. Neither of us took a single college-level English course. That will not, of course, stop us from having opinions on Tolkien's poetry and songs. This is what Bilbo Baggins hates. And/or what the Man in the Moon himself came down to listen to. You be the judge! There is also An Announcement: This Is The End. Of Tolkien commentary anyway. For now. An announcement on what media comes next can be found in the last few minutes of this episode, so stay tuned! We promise it will be an excellent time.
Featuring music and voices from Maury Laws, Glenn Yarborough, A.R. Rahman, Donald Swann, William Elvin, The Tolkien Ensemble, Sir Christopher Lee, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Howard Shore!
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Transcript
Camping Memories and Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
I was talking about going camping with a bunch of my coworkers, like not camping with my coworkers. I was talking about camping with my coworkers. Yes.
00:00:10
Speaker
I follow. There are pieces of me that miss doing as much camping as I did when I was a kid. And there are pieces of me that are like, well, I'm very happy with having like a bed to sleep in and not having bugs and dirt over everything.
00:00:29
Speaker
I'm taking a break from camping this year. We've gone camping every year the last couple of years, and we've just faced some terrible weather that has made it hard to keep my spirits up.
00:00:43
Speaker
We were in Virginia, and it was like 100 degrees. were in Maine, and it was raining. and It's great when the weather is nice, but I think the problem for me is it feels so high stakes because it's like I've taken the time off.
00:00:56
Speaker
We've driven all the way to whatever the location is. So if it the weather's not good, then you're just fucked. You know? Yeah. I do think I have had a couple of the greatest meals of my life out camping.
00:01:10
Speaker
One of which was when, I think it was the canoe trip. Was that the one with the steaks? That was the stakes over the fire. yeah Nine mile canoe trip down the river.
00:01:26
Speaker
And we got into camp and someone had driven ahead and like met us there and had started like making stakes over the fire.
Campfire Cooking Tips and Stories
00:01:37
Speaker
Oh, that's sweet. It was so good. I love that. Yeah, one of the one of the like adult leaders of the group um had driven ahead and started making dinner. um And then like the first group of us that got in started helping and like doing other prep stuff. And it was so good.
00:01:56
Speaker
you Have I told you about how my mother-in-law... doesn't believe that it's possible to cook over fire?
00:02:07
Speaker
No. Because I'm a very ambitious camp cook. As listeners of the show know, we both love to cook. And so when I go camping, I'll bake bread or I'll make tacos with tortillas from scratch and cook the tortillas over the fire something. You know, just be adventurous, be bold, because it's fun. Why not? This is how humans have cooked food forever and we all still do but miles was telling their mom about it and she was just utterly baffled that it was possible to make things over a campfire and i was like
00:02:45
Speaker
ah What? How do you think we've made food literally forever? Your gas stove is fire. I know there's not a knob on a campfire to adjust, but it's not that hard to figure out.
00:03:00
Speaker
This is still how lots of people cook their food. like but it was just very difficult to explain. Cook food on fire like caveman. We can do it. Right. And if you need to adjust like the heat, like you move it either to like different points of like like high heat coals versus like stuff that's been pulled away from the fire for a little while. like There are ways to do this in a very gourmet fashion if you wanted to.
00:03:29
Speaker
And there's ways to do this where it's like, ah and I'm roasting this thing. I'm boiling water. It's good. It's burned and raw at the same time.
00:03:40
Speaker
Yeah, but i think I think, I feel like to make a really good camp meal, the key is going for like a really long hike. um And then getting in the camp and like, preferably carrying all of your shit on your back because hunger is the best sauce.
00:03:57
Speaker
So true. you know, if you just show up at the campground, it's it's not going to be as good. My secret to camp cooking is my same secret to travel cooking in general. which is anything that requires measured ingredients, I'll just pre-measure it first. So I'll have a little Ziploc baggie with all of the spices mixed together in the amounts that I need or all of the flour or whatever.
00:04:19
Speaker
So then I don't have to be scooping things out of containers at the campsite. Also works very well for Airbnbs and other things because then you can just roll up and start cooking. Amazing. And it's less work because you've already done half the prep.
00:04:33
Speaker
Well, we might not be making herbs and stewed rabbits, but there are other integral parts of the journey that we can get to.
Introduction to Tolkien Discussion
00:04:58
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Fandom Apprentice. We are to today discussing poetry and songs in Lord of the Rings.
00:05:15
Speaker
I'm Rin. I'm one of your hosts. I grew up with Lord of the Rings. a My father, I think, read me The Hobbit when I was five.
00:05:26
Speaker
And I grew up alongside Bilbo and Frodo's journeys. and it had a profound effect on me and my love of fantasy and my love of a story.
00:05:38
Speaker
And for the last five years or so, I've been sharing that love with my very good friend, Sam. Hello, I'm Sam. I'm the other one.
00:05:50
Speaker
I have now fully consumed The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings books, the movies, the extended editions, obviously. Not the newer Hobbit films, but, you know, the original trilogy. So in this...
00:06:05
Speaker
sort of interlude between finishing all those big pieces of media and the things that will come next that we'll talk about a little bit later, we are going to take some time to just do a bit of a roundup, a little mini analysis of some of the poems and songs, because they're so essential to the experience of these books and movies, and they deserve their own a moment in the spotlight.
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah. As Sam said, we will have an announcement at the end of this episode. So stay tuned and you will be able to hear about our future.
00:06:43
Speaker
But to launch into poetry... We called out the poems and the songs as we were reading quite frequently because, like Sam said, they're they're so essential to the reading of these books.
00:06:58
Speaker
They're so useful for establishing the setting and establishing that sense of place. And that sense of character that you get from all of these, they make the world feel so much more rich.
00:07:09
Speaker
isn The books would certainly not be the same without these.
Role of Poetry and Songs in Tolkien's Work
00:07:14
Speaker
And so it was it felt like worthwhile to do our little roundup. And we talked a little bit about doing our our top 10 lists, which we'll get to shortly.
00:07:22
Speaker
But I did remember one of the things we called out in book two Sorry, books books four and five, really. And at the end of Two Towers, we'd call out that there wasn't a lot of poems or songs in that section.
00:07:38
Speaker
Yeah, I remember that. And so and looked up how many poems and songs are in each section of Lord of the Rings. um In book one, so the first half of Fellowship, there are 22 poems songs.
00:07:52
Speaker
or songs Oh, damn. That is the most in any section. There are 10 poems or songs in book two in the second half of Fellowship. The first half of The Two Towers, book three, there are 14.
00:08:05
Speaker
A bunch of them are fairly short, but there are still 14 of them. Book four, there are two. oh One of which is that like four or five line bit about elephants.
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah. Book five, there are six. And book six, there are seven. There are also a ah solid number of poems in The Hobbit on its own.
00:08:29
Speaker
There is 13 poems songs The Hobbit, some which rewrites of earlier pieces. nine ten thirteen total poems or songs in the hobb some of which are like rewrites of earlier pieces And, you you know, I think i think we we called out the context of a lot of these when we were reading about them.
00:08:55
Speaker
So do we want to just run down our our top 10 lists? Yeah. Do you want to yeah go first? Sure. Sure. Mine are not in any particular order. i don't know that I could necessarily pick favorites.
00:09:10
Speaker
Do we want to just do quick, just list the titles or talk about them a little bit? think we can talk about them a little bit if we want. Okay, sure. So my first one was Rhodes, which is just highly sentimental.
00:09:26
Speaker
The version from the animated 1977 Hobbit movie is Delightful. That, I think, is the version that lives in my head the most um most firmly.
00:09:44
Speaker
Over rock and under trees By caves where never sun has shone
00:09:55
Speaker
Ice dreams that never find the sea. And that one also sparked an honorable mention for another song from the animated movie that's not in the books. But The Greatest Adventure is delightful.
00:10:19
Speaker
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead. Today and tomorrow are yet to be said.
00:10:31
Speaker
The chances, the changes are all yours to make. The mold of your life is in your hands to break.
00:10:46
Speaker
And its we did kind of laugh about it when we were watching it as a group because they keep returning to motifs from that song every 30 seconds in the movie to the point where it's a little bit much, but it is deeply charming.
00:11:01
Speaker
So Rhodes and The Greatest Adventure are kind of linked in my mind because they're very similar thematically. Number two, The Man and the Moon, another very, very sentimental one. I have vivid memory of, I mean, you've recited this poem many times, but specifically way before we started this project, before I had read any of the books, walking with you to get bagels from your old apartment and you just start...
00:11:31
Speaker
showing off and reciting the whole poem and it was just so delightful and really fun and that every time I think about that poem I just remember ah nice spring or summer day and just walking with you to get bagels so that's nice it's obviously has nothing to do with the context in the book but it makes me happy when I think about it that one also is not in the movies but it is in the musical there's an inn of old renown Where they brew a beer so proud.
00:12:05
Speaker
The moon came rolling down the hill. One Heaven's Day night to drink his bill. On a three-string fiddle there. Played the Oscars, cat so fair.
00:12:16
Speaker
The horned cow that night was seen to dance a jig upon the green. Which, or a version of it, which is really fun. I like it. I've heard it.
00:12:27
Speaker
I had heard it before I had seen the movies and I thought that it was from the movies originally, but it's not.
Analysis of Favorite Tolkien Poems
00:12:32
Speaker
No. But that's a fun one. Then number three, Misty Mountains. It's hard to pick a favorite overall, but that one's definitely up there because it's just so good.
00:12:43
Speaker
Ambiance, vibey. I have sung it on top of Misty Mountains and nobody appreciated it. But it was fun. That's just sad. Uncultured. The uncultured swine hiking with me. That being my spouse and my brother who didn't think it was very funny.
00:13:00
Speaker
that's a point That's the first point against your brother I think I've ever heard.
00:13:07
Speaker
a lot of these are from The Hobbit, actually. But The the Hobbit is great. Chip the glasses and crack the plates. Another super fun one. That's what Bilbo Baggins hates. Chip the glasses, crack the that's what they'll both bank and say
00:13:28
Speaker
I was watching the version of it from the animated Hobbit movie and thinking, damn, this really sounds like something that Santa's elves should be singing. And then I realized that it's because it's Rankin Bass. So it has the same vibe as all the old timey Christmas movies.
00:13:44
Speaker
Number five, Song of the Ent and Ent Wife. Also not in the movies, but I love some Ent nuance. I think it is really, it's a good insight into what the Ents value and experience and the things that they've lost. It's a nice moment.
00:14:02
Speaker
This one, I don't know if it officially has a title. Number six, the... Lord of the Rings wiki calls it Rahumrah. That's the with roll of drum, we come, we come. That's the one that I recite to myself the most often, but it just gets me hype. It's fun. i like it. that That one might be my favorite, actually.
00:14:21
Speaker
The Weizen Guard be ringed and barred with... doors of stone i could probably pull it up and recite it myself in one of my mini tabs but it's it just rolls off the tongue feel like this is a good time because ah it's also on my list for obvious reasons because it's it's so good it's one of those you know two eyes and guard two eyes and guard we go we go we go to war There are, i'll get into this a little a little more and when I go through mine.
00:14:52
Speaker
There are recordings out there of Tolkien reading some of these. Oh, I should have listened to those. And some of them are, you know, it it feels almost like he's just kind of like trying to get through it.
00:15:06
Speaker
And some of them he's really bringing the emotion. And I feel like this one in particular, he really brings he really brings the emotion to it.
00:15:18
Speaker
To Isengard, to Isengard, be ringed and barred with doors of stone. Isengard, be strong and hard and cold as stone and bear as bone. We go, we go, we go to war to hew the stone and break the door.
00:15:30
Speaker
For bowl and bow are burning now, the furnace roars, we go to war. To land of gloom, with tramp of doom, with roll of drum, we come, we come. To Isengard, with doom, we come, with doom, we come, with doom, we come.
00:15:44
Speaker
Oh yeah, he's bringing it. He's feeling it. I love it. Yeah, that's that is utterly delightful. It's so cute. Next one, number seven, Lament for the Rohirrim, the where's the horse and the rider.
00:15:58
Speaker
and just really liked how that one captures the mood very differently, as we've talked about in the books and in the movie, but both times, I think, to very good effect.
00:16:09
Speaker
Number eight, I sit beside the fire and think, which think also not in the movies, question mark. no That one, i was very emotional about when we read it.
00:16:20
Speaker
Because, yeah, we were kind of returning to Bilbo after having finished The Hobbit. Getting perspective on him, on his life. Kind of getting ready to embrace Frodo as our new protagonist. And Bilbo kind of hanging up his walking stick. That was a lot of feelings in that one. Confronting his mortality.
00:16:44
Speaker
was just... It was a nice bow to put on to sort of recognize the experience that the readers have probably had with Bilbo before picking up Fellowship and sort of gently shepherding us through that transition. That was nice.
00:17:00
Speaker
hmm. Last two, ah number nine, ah The World Was Young, The Mountain's Green, which is the poem that Gimli recites when they get to Moria and
Reflections on Reading Tolkien
00:17:12
Speaker
Sam makes the mistake of referring to some of the caverns as holes. And then Gimli goes, these aren't fucking holes, you uncultured imbecile.
00:17:22
Speaker
And The poem itself is fine. It's a good poem. It's not my favorite on its own. you It's not like the most remarkable, but I do like it for what it represents in terms of dwarf lore and being a really good Gimli moment, a bonding moment for Sam and Gimli because Sam loves it and wants to learn it.
00:17:43
Speaker
And i went all the way back in my show notes document to see if I had initially had anything to say when I came across this poem.
00:17:54
Speaker
way back in the beginning of Two Towers. And i didn't really have any notes on it then either. I just wrote, Gimli sings a song, whatever. Focusing on more important things. But I did, just like going back that far in our notes and looking at some of my earliest impressions of Two Towers, gave me what I assume is similar to the feeling that parents of toddlers have when they're like, I think I want to have another kid.
00:18:23
Speaker
I'm like... damn, I want to do this again. want to just go back. I want to reread all the books. I want to make another podcast. I wanted to have this whole experience from the beginning. I want to read it for the first time again. Because, I mean, we've done so much reflecting on the overall experience. I don't want to belabor that point too much.
00:18:42
Speaker
But it was really fun just to go back and see how far we've come with the books that was nice and then my number 10 song of Boromir because I had to represent me coming full circle on Boromir it's growth I guess he's fine but that is that is the speed run of my top 10 and i think we'll probably have more to say once I hear your top 10 and then we can kind of bounce off each other i I gotta to say my favorite's Rhodes.
00:19:11
Speaker
Like, again, my top ten are in no particular order, but I do think the top one is Rhodes. In all of its many verses, in all of its many uses, in all of the many places it shows up in the books.
00:19:25
Speaker
From the end of The Hobbit to multiple points in the journey ah of Lord of the Rings, sung by Bilbo and sung by Frodo. that's That's my number one.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, that kind of carries us through the entire story. It's always like a place that we return to. Yeah, definitely. And then the man on the moon stayed up too late, which is, of course, the song from Bree, which I, as you said, have recited many times, including at one point to my old roommate and one of ah our D&D group while standing on our coffee table.
00:20:07
Speaker
Like start starting sitting down next to her and ending standing on the coffee table.
00:20:15
Speaker
And then various others, um some of them are because of the adaptations. Some of them are, I think, because of, and don't know, where they are in the books. I think, you know the Ents marching song is in there. that's a third.
00:20:33
Speaker
Cold be hand and heart and bone. The white, the the chant of the whites. And a piece of that is because... You haven't heard the Chant of the Whites until you have heard it recited by Sir Christopher Lee.
00:20:50
Speaker
Hmm.
00:20:55
Speaker
Cold be hand and heart and bone.
00:21:23
Speaker
The Lament for Gandalf, I think, is in there. who Misty Mountains. Far over the misty mountains cold, to dungeons deep and caverns old.
00:21:33
Speaker
We must away your break of day to seek our pale enchanted gold. That, I mean, again, I said, I i have mentioned that I first read the hobbit with my dad at like age five probably like in that age range and that is right within the first chapter yeah that is it is such a like mind grabbing like attention grabbing
00:22:05
Speaker
poem. that's that's what starts you That's what starts Bilbo on his journey. That's what starts you on your journey. That is what started me on this journey. Yeah, I love that.
00:22:18
Speaker
You know, the Bilbo Baggins, Chip the Glasses, Crack the Plates is the only song before that in the entire series. And that's nice, and but not quite the same. Yeah, that one's a little bit silly. A lot silly.
Cultural Reflections in Tolkien's Poetry
00:22:31
Speaker
But Misty Mountains has gravitas. It's intense. Yeah, so I think that's five. Right? Roads, cold, man in the moon, Misty Mountains, lament for Gandalf.
00:22:46
Speaker
Galadriel's messages. Where now are the Dunedain? Elessar, Elessar, why do thy kinsfolk wander afar? And then that leading into the warning about Legolas and the sea...
00:22:58
Speaker
but dark is the path appointed for thee the dead watch the road that leads to the sea and then that leading into warning about legalless and the sea Legolas, greenleaf long under tree, in joy thou hast lived, beware of the sea.
00:23:18
Speaker
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more. And then the wrap-up to Gimli of just, lock-bearer, wherever thou goest, my thought goes with thee, but have a care to lay thine axe to the right tree.
00:23:34
Speaker
Don't cut down an ent or a huorn. It will not end well. Yeah. um Good advice. All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost.
00:23:47
Speaker
The old that is strong does not wither. Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken. From the shadows a light shall spring.
00:23:58
Speaker
Renewed shall be blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king. The Ant's Marching Song, I Sit Beside the Fire and Think, The Lament for the Rohirrim, and probably Fifteen Birds and Five Fir Trees.
00:24:14
Speaker
Fifteen birds in five fir trees Their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze But funny little birds They had no wings.
00:24:26
Speaker
Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things? Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things? I considered that one. I considered putting that one on my list. It is very fun.
00:24:41
Speaker
I have other ones. I have a list of 13 and I didn't mention some of them and added one or two that weren't on the list originally. It's hard to pick just 10 of these because they're all so evocative for where they are in the books. And and there are, you know, poems that you can kind of skip over.
00:25:03
Speaker
There are poems entirely in Elvish that don't get translated that the the prayer to Elbereth early on doesn't get translated for the reader. But it serves its purpose to create a sense of place.
00:25:17
Speaker
Yeah. to To create setting to introduce you to the elves. I feel like you can really see the difference in our lists between me being a first time reader and you returning to the books because I feel like more of mine are the ones that not necessarily more memorable, but more prominent, I guess. That's like, if you Google list of poems, these are going to be on there.
00:25:43
Speaker
But I feel like you have a lot more subtle character building ones that perfectly suit a certain moment just because of being more attuned to them. And I think that that's really cool.
00:25:56
Speaker
Obviously they're all amazing, but I think that it's, illustrates the things that stuck out to us very well whereas I'm just like trying to keep up with the plot and noticing things for the first time like okay like these are the big poems the Tolkien is really shoving in your face but then there's also the more you pay attention to characters who are just speaking in poetry like Gladriel sending her messages or poems that aren't translated there's more layers and it rewards returning to it and doing more investigation yeah
00:26:27
Speaker
I feel like too, for me, some of the ones that have stuck in my head are the shorter poems, the couple of lines here and there, because I can remember the whole thing. Like, I don't have to think about it. And some of the longer ones that I do remember are either because I've read them so many times or because of adaptations. You mentioned the 1977 Hobbit.
00:26:47
Speaker
hait movie by Rankin and Bass, which we've mentioned on the podcast, but we haven't had an explicit episode on.
Adaptations and Performances of Tolkien's Poetry
00:26:55
Speaker
That also was was, you know, one of my first experiences of a book transferred to screen. And they do such a good job with it with just 106 minutes of film.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah. For this, you know, children's book that does move quickly, but is still dense. They do an excellent job with it. And they use so many of Tolkien's poems as the soundtrack adapted by um Maury Laws and Glenn Yarbrough.
00:27:29
Speaker
And like you said, The Greatest Adventure is the only piece of music on that soundtrack with original lyrics. Yeah. They have embellished some of the others or rearranged some of the lines to make it flow better.
00:27:42
Speaker
But everything else comes from Tolkien's writing. which I loved. Yeah. I had book as a kid ah called Poetry Speaks to Children, which was a collection of poems from various poets from Shakespeare to Langston Hughes and beyond.
00:28:05
Speaker
And it had a CD get along with it with a lot of the poets reading their work, including Tolkien reading The Man and the Moon Stayed Up Too Late.
00:28:17
Speaker
Oh, no way. That's awesome. And so that remains one of my favorite recordings of him and is, is him reading that poem. And he's just, it's another one of those moments where he's clearly having a good time with it.
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah. There is an inn of Mary O'Lean beneath an old gray hill. And there they brew a beer so brown of a man in the moon himself came down one night to drink his fill. The hostler has a tipsy cat that plays a five-string fiddle.
00:28:45
Speaker
And up and down he runs his bow, now squeaking high, now purring low, now sawing in the middle. The landlord keeps a little dog that's mighty fond of jokes. When there's good cheer among the guests, he cocks an ear at all the jests and laughs until he chokes.
00:28:58
Speaker
They also keep a horned cow as proud as any queen. But music turns her head like ale and makes her wave her tufted tail and dance upon the green. I think we might have included clips of this in a previous episode. I feel like I've heard this before.
00:29:13
Speaker
i mean, I've definitely shown it to you. The other one, honestly, that I can't remember whether it was in Poetry Speaks to Children or whether it was in something else is I i know I heard a musical adaptation of this as a kid.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah. And I have not for the life of me been able to find it. And like the, the only thing that I can really identify from it is the, the piece about the Osler having a tipsy cat um that plays a five string fiddle and up and down. He runs his bow now squeaking high now pouring low, now sawing in the middle.
00:29:56
Speaker
And that sits in my brain and I have not been able to find the whole, the full thing since. And it is probably some seed, like random CD from somewhere that was in my parents' library, but no longer exists since they got rid of all of it it when they moved.
00:30:12
Speaker
This makes me want to log into Reddit for the first time since 2017 and go on the Lost Media subreddit and see if anyone can find it. that's That's a mystery that I feel like the internet could solve.
00:30:25
Speaker
Probably. um If any listener of this podcast knows what I'm talking about, please, please send that to us. um You will have my undying gratitude.
00:30:37
Speaker
A couple of things that I was noticing about the poetry as I was going through all of them for my research. Now, I have to preface this with a disclaimer of, I know jack fuck about poetry.
00:30:52
Speaker
Oh, same. I know it has never come easily to me. i know fucking nothing about poems. My spouse, who's on the other side of this wall, overhearing my half of this conversation is probably just scrabbling at the door wanting to talk about poetry.
00:31:06
Speaker
I'm sorry. Yeah, I didn't take a single college English class. Not one. Me either. I got my like writing requirements out of the way through a biology course, interestingly enough, and an anthropology course and a gender studies class.
00:31:23
Speaker
isn i I didn't need to take an English class and I didn't. So know jack fuck about poetry. Everything I know about poetry comes from Osmosis reading these and talking about poems and stories in like the poetic edda from my like Nordic mythology class.
00:31:49
Speaker
That's it. Or like Latin, when we talked about the Aeneid and shit like that, that stuff I know vaguely about. But a couple of things I was noticing. I was noticing that Rohirric poetry doesn't really go in for rhyme. It tends to be alliterative more than it's rhyming.
00:32:09
Speaker
isn So like a couple of pieces of Rohirric poetry, we see, we have, out of out of doubt, out of dark to the days rising.
00:32:23
Speaker
He rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing, Hope he rekindled and hope he ended. Over death, over dread, over doom lifted. Out of loss, out of life, unto long glory. So you have that doubt dark day, singing sun sword.
00:32:42
Speaker
Death, dread, doom, loss, life, long. isn And then you have another piece of rhetoric poetry you have from dark Dunharrow in the dim morning with Thane and Captain rode Thangle's son to Edoras he came the ancient halls of the mark wardens mist enshrouded golden timbers were in gloom mantled it's that it's the alliterative bits again yeah We see more rhyme in Hobbit poems.
00:33:13
Speaker
Upon the hearth the fire is red, beneath the roof there is a bed, but yet not not yet weary are our feet still round the corner. We may we meet a sudden tree or standing stone that none have seen but we alone.
00:33:26
Speaker
Tree and flower, leaf and grass, let them pass, let them pass. Hill and water under sky, pass them by, pass them by. And it's lot of rhyming, a lot of either like ABAB or rhyming couplets, occasionally rhyming triplets.
00:33:44
Speaker
Still around the corner there may wait a new road or secret gate. A lot of couplets. It feels lowbrow. Yeah. The elves also have rhyming.
00:33:56
Speaker
But it feels more highbrow Like, mysterious. Highbrow. Yeah, they're more formal just in general.
00:34:04
Speaker
why do thy kinsfolk wander afar near is the hour when the loss should come forth and the grey company ride from the north like mysterious highbrow yeah they're more formal just in general Mm-hmm.
00:34:21
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But then you have, like, Bilbo imitating elven poetry. With, like, in western lands beneath the sun, the flowers may rise in spring, the trees may bud, the waters run, the merry finches sing.
00:34:35
Speaker
Or there may be tis cloudless night, but and swaying beaches bare, the elven stars as jewels white amid their branching hair. I had never noticed until you pointed it out.
00:34:46
Speaker
But yeah, obviously he has influences from elven poetry. But when you contrast it against other Hobbit poems, the difference is so clear. That's really interesting.
00:34:57
Speaker
Another piece. And then you we do see Rotorio poetry that does rhyme. you know, the where now is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
00:35:08
Speaker
Where is the helm and the hauberk and the bright hair flowing? Where is the hand on the heart string and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
00:35:20
Speaker
So there's rhyming there, but there is still the alliteration, the helm and the hauberk, the horse and the horn, the hand on the harp string. isn And then the ent-ish stuff feels rhythmic. It feels like a drum itself.
00:35:34
Speaker
Yeah. We come, we come with roll of drum, ta-runda-runda-runda-rum.
00:35:41
Speaker
There's a lot of like rumbly onomatopoeia in the end poems. Lots of big epic nature forces of nature kind of energy.
00:35:54
Speaker
and energy How does Tom Bombadil fit into this picture? Tom Bombadil is fucking chaos.
00:36:03
Speaker
He's chaos incarnate. I didn't honestly look at a bunch of his things because it's not my favorite. It's fun. it's but It's a lot of rhyming, but it's a lot of like nonsense rhymes.
00:36:17
Speaker
Yeah. And that calls back to who Tom Bombadil is. he's He's calling to Van Amoynen from the Kalevala. where he's reshaping his environment through song.
00:36:29
Speaker
um And Van Amoynen does that in the Kalabala. But, you know, his his rhyme schemes are, you know, Hey doll, merry doll, ring-a-dong-dillo, ring-a-dong-hop-along, fat doll the willow, tom-bom, jolly tom, tom-bom-ba-dillo, which honestly...
00:36:46
Speaker
I feel like they he was Tom Bombadil the day they met him. Like reading this, he could have been something else entirely if his rhymes were something else another day.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're right. I mentioned Tolkien reading his own poetry. Mentioned the 1977 Hobbit. Mentioned we've we've ah had Christopher Lee.
00:37:10
Speaker
reading. Christopher Lee cooperated with a group called the Tolkien Ensemble, which has put all of the poems and songs ah to music. Oh, shit. um You can find all of their stuff on Spotify.
00:37:24
Speaker
it's It's very fun. i i like it a lot. I am still attached to the stuff from the 1977 Hobbit because that was my first. You never forget your first.
00:37:37
Speaker
And so so I'm very attached to that vibe. There is also another artist who put a lot of these pieces to music, ah Donald Swan.
00:37:48
Speaker
And Donald Swan has one piece. Actually, it's the only piece of song that Tolkien actually composed himself. was ah And i don't I don't have a good recording of this to send you. If I find one, we'll insert it into the podcast.
00:38:06
Speaker
But it is ah Galadriel's Lament, Galadriel's Farewell, Namoriyyeh.
00:38:14
Speaker
Oh, yeah. laurria latalasi swooningina
00:38:40
Speaker
which is sung in Quenya. And apparently when when Donald Swan was collaborating with Tolkien on this, he sang his thoughts to Tolkien and Tolkien went, actually, no, this is what I was thinking.
00:38:53
Speaker
And sang it back and sang his thoughts to him. And it's Gregorian chant-like. And that' Donald Swan transcribed what Tolkien was singing.
00:39:05
Speaker
And that is the final piece that he wrote.
Criticisms and Skills in Tolkien's Poetry
00:39:08
Speaker
i love that. that the ah That's the song ah that translates, Ah, like gold like gold fall the leaves in the wind, Long years numberless as the wings of trees.
00:39:22
Speaker
Ay, l'orealantar la sisorinen, Yenni uno time, veiv ramar aldaran. you know, it's a very long poem. I'm not going to read the entire thing in Elvish. I respect that.
00:39:33
Speaker
I might get a little flack for this, but the adaptations I don't particularly like... is Rob Inglis and Andy Serkis and the audiobooks. Mmm, spicy. I have not listened to the audiobooks, so I do not have a frame of preference.
00:39:49
Speaker
Rob Inglis is okay for some of them. I don't particularly like Andy Serkis' interpretations of a lot of them. Because they're both doing the thing where they are trying to read the audiobook and so not insert too much of their own creation isn while also being like, yes, this is a song. And so it's like sort of chanted, sort of sung, but kind of tonelessly for a lot of these pieces.
00:40:21
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like songs in audiobooks in general are very hit or miss. Yeah. But there are, and then you mentioned too also that there's some adaptations of some of these poems in ah the Lord of the Rings movies that we have just discussed quite extensively over the last couple of episodes.
00:40:41
Speaker
um If you would like to hear our coverage of that, you can go back. We do discuss the lament of the Rohirrim in our Two Towers episode and Billy Boyd's version of part of, ah believe it's, it's one of the walking songs.
00:41:00
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. it's Yes, which is yeah which is so happy in the book and then is so sad there. And then Bernard Hill's in incredible delivery of Theoden's speeches and the lament for the Rohirrim just bringing the emotion.
00:41:21
Speaker
And then the one point I have to give to Peter Jackson and Howard Shore again with with the Hobbit movies. I don't Love the Peter Jackson Hobbit movies. They have their merits. They have their rather significant drawbacks.
00:41:36
Speaker
But they do have their merits. One of which is their adaptation of Misty Mountains, which I am sure everybody listening to this podcast has heard.
00:42:01
Speaker
And caverns old. We must await a break of day.
00:42:24
Speaker
It's really good. it's like really good. and And I remember sending you, before we started this podcast, before we started reading through any of these books, One Winter, it's one of like the TikTok deep base supergroups.
00:42:43
Speaker
that did a version of it. Yes. And it was, it must have been like January or February. i remember standing out in the porch or on the porch in the snow, freezing my tits off, listening to it through headphones with my eyes closed because that was the only way I could get the ambiance I wanted.
00:43:05
Speaker
um and then sending it to you and being like, here, before you listen to this, do these things. I know you're going to be cold. Don't worry about it. I remember this, yes. And while I i do absolutely love the adaptation in the 1977 Hobbit, and I'm obviously quite attached to that.
00:43:26
Speaker
o'er the misty mountains cold
00:43:58
Speaker
To seek the pale enchanted
00:44:11
Speaker
I think the the Peter Jackson the Hobbit films just knocked it out of the park with that one. After this, I'm probably just going to go listen to it again.
00:44:24
Speaker
um do dooo but And now that I think about it, it has that callback to the fellowship theme.
00:44:38
Speaker
Oh, yeah, doesn't it? but um dada da-da god damn It's all connected. Like, again, knocked it out of the fucking park on that one.
00:44:53
Speaker
Yeah, that rules. But the fact that we have spent so long now talking about just the adaptations and the various adaptations of these poems, it it shows you how much, how integral these are to the experience of Lord of the Rings.
00:45:13
Speaker
Tolkien, you know, there there have been criticisms of Tolkien's poetry as being like, not very technically skilled. And I would argue, sure, maybe it's not, you know, Robert Frost, maybe it's not Langston Hughes, it's not Shakespeare.
Tolkien's Influence Beyond Lord of the Rings
00:45:27
Speaker
But one, it takes a lot of skill to do multiple different styles of poetry, like defined styles that match each of your little internally constructed cultures.
00:45:41
Speaker
And it takes skill to do something poorly. And so... True. We talked about this with the Father Christmas letters. Yeah. Yeah. i When Sam is composing his little poems about ah like the stone troll, or when he's talking about the elephants, or his verse in The Lament for Gandalf...
00:46:03
Speaker
It's clearly more amateur than Bilbo's poetry. Yeah. It's not unskilled, but it is clearly more at an amateur level. And it takes skill.
00:46:14
Speaker
It takes a lot of skill to be able to clearly separate those to your reader. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think if I have anything else. I don't have anything else in my written notes, but I do have 90 billion tabs open, ah which shouldn't be surprising to anybody who has listened to this podcast for more than one episode.
00:46:36
Speaker
But as I sit beside my computer and think of all the tabs I have open...
00:46:45
Speaker
Do you have anything else to talk about ah for Tolkien's poetry and the various adaptations? No, I don't think so. This is an area that I'm not super knowledgeable about. i definitely know more about Tolkien than I do about poetry.
00:47:02
Speaker
But it's nice to go out of my comfort zone a little bit and spend time examining these on their own. was a good exercise. And then one other piece, actually, I did i did want to talk about is Tolkien's non-Lord the Rings poetry. Because he was a poet. Like, he did write other pieces of poetry.
00:47:19
Speaker
There are other poems. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil has a longer cycle. And then the other one that I'm really familiar with is his Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun, which is a retelling of parts of the saga the Volsung's.
00:47:37
Speaker
And he rewrote it as a piece of epic poetry. alone dwelt sigmund his land ruling cold was his bower queenless childless in songs he heard of sweetest maiden ah sgueun's beauty swafnir's daughter old was sigmund as an oak gnarled his beard was gray as bark of a Young was Sigurdin, and yellow gleaming, her locks hung long on Lysim's shoulder.
00:48:03
Speaker
In that, he's much more obviously drawing on his education, his academic, and his academic skill, um and his his academic areas of interest in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon writings.
00:48:21
Speaker
But if you take that and you compare it to the poetry that we read in Lord of the Rings, you can you can see the direct through lines. The lament for the Rohirrim we called out in the episode where we discussed that as a rewrite of an old English poem.
00:48:39
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. So I think i'm I'm very glad that he put these in. I think there is they are, as we said, ah just essential to the reading of the stories.
00:48:52
Speaker
And I think to connect this more to the overall thoughts of this podcast... They're essential to how I feel about fantasy. You know, I don't feel like it's a fantasy world, like it's in an in-depth fantasy world, unless you have what is clearly some form of oral tradition story being passed along and sung in taverns and things.
00:49:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's... That's a very fair point. And I'm now thinking about other fantasy stories that I've read where the little rhymes and asides and bits of the broader culture that come in through poetry and song are really some of the parts that stick with me the most, even if I don't realize that at the time.
00:49:36
Speaker
But yeah, once you point it out, then you can't unsee
Introduction to The Murderbot Diaries Series
00:49:39
Speaker
it. Yeah. So it's an essential part of media. And I guess as we wrap up the rather less than 35,000 hours of discussion on Tolkien,
00:49:54
Speaker
do we want to make our grand announcement now? i feel like this is a good time to make our grand announcement. I would love to make our grand announcement. So as as we've mentioned for the last few episodes, we have wrapped up our main discussion of Tolkien. And don't worry if you have come here for the Tolkien.
00:50:14
Speaker
It will remain, one, it will remain in our feed. And two, will remain a part of our interpretations for a long time. We'll have various bonus episodes on Tolkien content.
00:50:28
Speaker
I'm sure we'll come back to the world of Tolkien at a later point. um whether it's for one episode or for a longer series of episodes. But it is time for us to move on to another set of stories that, in the grand tradition of this podcast, I introduced to Sam.
00:50:52
Speaker
I did not grow up with these stories. But they are very important to me, and then I did make other people read them. I started with your spouse, but then when that didn't quite take, I got on to your case.
00:51:09
Speaker
We are going to be discussing, and this is a good time now to say this, ah we're going to be discussing The Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells. I am so excited. We've talked about Murderbot so much on this show.
00:51:22
Speaker
Every person that we know in real life has probably heard us recommend Murderbot. It has been universally loved by anyone who I've harassed long enough that just shut me up. They've started reading it.
00:51:36
Speaker
They have come back and said, thank you. This has been amazing. And we have been obsessed with it, I think. I'm not sure when it got optioned for TV rights, but definitely since before the TV show was a definite thing that was happening.
00:51:50
Speaker
Yeah. We've been obsessed with Murderbot, and we have been talking about wanting to do mini-season on Murderbot. So, lucky for us, it is also extremely timely, because...
00:52:01
Speaker
If the timing of the release of this episode works out, folks who maybe are just starting to get into Murderbot because of the show and are looking for more in-depth discussions of the plot and of the books can come here and hang out with us because i am so absolutely delighted that there will be an influx of new Murderbot fans in the world.
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah. So if if you are listening to this podcast right when it comes out, be you will be mid first season of the Apple TV Plus show Murderbot.
00:52:35
Speaker
We're going to start with the books because that is how we got into them. ah We are going to discuss the show at some point. We might not do like an episode by episode breakdown, but we will we will discuss the show.
00:52:46
Speaker
But we're going to start with the books because that is where our our love for Murderbot grew. So I don't know whether we'll release the first one next week or within within the next within the next few episodes, you will be able to hear us discussing everyone's favorite rogue sec unit, rogue killer construct.
00:53:10
Speaker
Who just wants to watch Space Netflix. Leave it alone. So desperately, just leave it to watch Space Grey's Anatomy, please, for the love of god Yeah.
00:53:24
Speaker
I am not a person who rereads books in general. It's just not something that is fun for me. But I have read the entire Murderbot series probably at least three times at this point. Some of the individual books I may have read more than that.
00:53:41
Speaker
And I was just starting my annual reread of the series now. that last week or earlier this week and then went oh shit no we're talking about it for the podcast I should wait so that I'm not reading the same book back to back over and over but I I never get tired of Murderbot it is delightful it has queerness that is not just implied it's actually there so that's great Not that it isn't actually there in Lord of the Rings, as I think it's established, but there is some juicy queer space non-monogamy stuff that would make Murderbot physically ill if it had to look at it for more than half a second.
00:54:24
Speaker
Thanks, third mom. Oh, I'm so excited. Oh, I'm very excited to discuss Murderbot. We'll be starting with All Systems Red. I don't know whether we'll do one episode on All Systems Red or two episodes on All Systems Red.
00:54:38
Speaker
We haven't fully figured out the format or I haven't fully figured out the format because that is my job for the show. Which I appreciate so much. I appreciate many things about you. And that is one of them.
00:54:52
Speaker
ah So I will figure out the the exactness of the format, but very soon, whether it is next episode or the episode after or the episode after that, depending, within the next few episodes, you will be able to hear us discuss Murderbot by Martha Wells.
00:55:11
Speaker
um So it's a good time to read them. They're quick reads. If you want to read along with the podcast, um you absolutely can. The audiobooks. The audiobooks are amazing. if you were a fan of Welcome to Night Vale back in the day, Kevin Arfrey, who did Kevin from Desert Bluffs, does the audiobooks and he does an amazing job.
00:55:33
Speaker
He's fantastic. We'll get more into that. And I ah look forward to taking our universal rules of fantasy and adapting them to become universal rules of science fiction.
00:55:44
Speaker
Yes. got to keep it Gotta keep it on the standard podcast level. Oh, yes. But thank you so much for coming along on the many stages of this first journey that we've been on.
00:56:01
Speaker
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead. Couldn't have said it better myself. So if you want to listen to us talk about more Tolkien things,
00:56:14
Speaker
Murderbot, whatever comes after Murderbot, you can follow our podcast on whatever podcast platform you're listening on. You can leave us a five-star review or a written review to get us in front of other people's ears.
00:56:32
Speaker
You can follow our social media. We are at fanappod.com. on whatever social media platforms we're on. I don't do too much with social media these days because i've I've been taking a personal break, but you can, if we're on a social media site, we are on there as at F-A-N-A-P-P-P-O-D.
00:56:52
Speaker
And you can always get in touch with us at thefandomapprentice at gmail.com. and Anything else, Sammy? No, I think that's it. I am excited for our next adventure with Murderbot. Thanks again, everyone, for hanging out with us. And we'll see you next time.
00:57:08
Speaker
See you next time. Bye. The Phantom Apprentice is produced and edited by Rin and Sam. Our music is written and performed by James. You can hear more of his music on Spotify or on Bandcamp under the group Baeruz, B-A-E-R-U-Z.
00:57:24
Speaker
Our art is by Casey Turgeon. You can find more her work at KCT Designs on Instagram. The content discussed is the property of the Tolkien Estate and of Peter Jackson and New Line Cinemas and is used here under fair use.